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pay and working to the fog. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles W Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry out their outside the fiscal and also there's guess pretty soon, all in our power Ben yeah. Room this time on the MIKE thanks for having us. This is way better than that time. You have been on the April fool's episode, language, other because they remember banned from that. I think it was two US and thirteen or fifteen somethin oddly time ago, it's my replacement yeah. It was a April fool's joke for the three d printing episodes. That is your second time on Oh yeah, the internet shreds you ban was it where they re like a target of abuse. I wanted everybody for the very polite emails and as as we could tell thankfully chuck his fine day when they take it easy, and we are very nice listening should also, and the nautilus might be. The first time you were speaking on the park has, even though you ve guessed.

These two like a million times mumbled something in the background, the tide I do he added in a really while Josh So we're having you two on cut, let's get out to business because you to have a podcast together right I know you also run many crush movie crush it's true near here. Also unreal worlds, colliding right right, there's a lot, I'm going over the more Europe If they don't want you to know you to bear and no have come together and made ridiculous history, we get along the other right. Where dismiss I've got a stern swept up, as Europe, ridiculous history together, we are telling tell us about that. So history is full of these cartoonish. Bizarre events often not covered in your typical, the history class,

sounds familiar right shall because, for one reason or another, people thought that's no way that didn't really happen. Recorded instance of a mooning did not result in the death of hundreds of people is surely not surely not, but it did in it in and surely the? U S, government did not have a plan to shoot a nuclear missile at the moon right now. Just a MR shows gas, surely not also wise with it. It was kind of parallel. Thinking is the misery

catch, haven't before this story became declassified. Is I write it everyday one? One nine! So is our continuing mission with ridiculous history, not to sound to start tricky about. It is to find those moments, the bizarre people places and things throughout the span of human civilization that ITALY's crack the both of us up on a continuous basis, and sometimes we do have to stop recording just for a second because we're so tickled D. Really. Yet, while that's that's actually high quality, mainly because we'll take a leech other, I gotta physical,

let's tee, then you're, making a sound so serious that actually a lot of fun is it's. A fund show right now you can get in bed I'm giving our time, but yet that is eminently like. We touch on from time to time. It'll get go into a heavier territory lingering sample. We didn't bestowed about how women in Kansas in the nineteen twenties, were imprisoned in labour camps for having ass, tedious work that certainly falls ridiculous, not exactly fun or funny. Right now, ha ha ridiculous right. So it's it's all others think some of them are. You know, crack you up hilarious, Momently, Napoleon Bonaparte, giving attacked by bunnies, true story for you. Now the or mention as Dd Labour Camp lower than racist special Olympics that were held here in the states and were a complete will, to borrow a phrase, reason of show a comply

ship show as someone I think you are like, you need to name the state that hosted that go. It was, I say, Louis yeah, Louis who gets its happy because if the world's fair was happening in Saint Louis, the up and they were going to have it in Chicago, but the people who, in the world's fair said, if you don't do you're a limping as part of the world's fair working to totally blow you out of the water with how awesome are worlds fair, is announcing to come to your limpets and scare them the only early days of like you know not the earliest of the Olympics when they brought it back like a man. Are you saying that it was not able to Rome it? We do not act nation wrong and it was already. There was not a good example of the Olympics either because the white supremacist, who were in charge of the whole Sheng decided that this would be the perfect time to prove their cock, Mamie ideas of like eugenics ideas, a kind of way.

Wait superiority in like they would have indigenous people competing in these alembic events. How good? Of course they didn't teach them how to do the events, so they didn't just automatically know how to pull Balder, throw a javelin or whatever serving and where supremacist Karun anything anything they put their hands on. The really Kansas turns to poop. Now we are doing in episode on flashlights later so we are so so before we give everything away, guys tell everyone where they can find ridiculous history him when you can find ridiculous history at our website. No, it's ridiculous history show, I think so a website, every care appear for the God. Damn notes, regulatory shuffling, you're. Really, I think, find us now pike ass. He glanced Spotify. You us where we find your favorite shows. Like stuff, you should know or stuff they want you to know. I should I list the entire pants

of all the shows. We have too many his voice by, but, yes, you can find us in all of those places. We also have a community page, the we're really proud of, and really happy with called ridiculous historians on Facebook taken a toast cue from Miss the Cisco army yelled nice. Well, first of all, thank you for all of the flattery that you ve been heaping on Israel S. Human Rights is much appreciated, but also thank you for coming by we share the guy's. Thank you guys were have yes, yes, much was still is. Every week we check the sketch. I gotta tell ya, love those guys, I'm glad to get out of that, that new studio box

like a theme, a trailer, manage formaldehyde wafting off slowly, poisoning as it is still off guessing. It feels a year big time it's in my hair, near which is now falling out, we're in bad shape. Before I like what you wearing by the way Thank you. I spilled a tremendous amount of coughing myself and luckily I had a bunch of samples of her new t shirt dear and this is not a just- a plug. Everyone Josh's literally bearing a Louis, the child sceptic t. Shirt from a study should know store because they sent us every shirt and like a great to the guy, who has a hundred tee shirts years twenty more. They are pretty cool, pretty happy with this, like the identical with size of it, look at the size The right of excise is now so big that it wrapped around and gets all mangled by my love handles, but it also not so small that it looks like you know the caved in chest. You know me. I couldn't remember that

So what's it I didn't neither like they listen to the Piper episode they go at. Sounds like a? U thing Josh, but it was it I've had a common and made no it's a t, shirt, I'm wearing witches. I love. It makes it very much be alive. By the way I need to give a shot up to Brittany, Schiff Brittany Schiff sent this idea to us. Ok, great and the reason we are often take all that's not true. We cannot keep up kitty of listeners. Suggestions, but we don't often like do when the next week and then shut out the person sure, but I thought we had fully exhausted. Our crime and punishment series know. So I was delighted that Brittany shifts in the sand, and I was like why haven't we done police line? I don't know the great question is just sitting there. Yet

and yet the only other one that's left is what kind of shoes detectives where judges that's the last one This means that this year that gun shoe or Crepes old, I think, yeah, but I don't know how it relates to cops. I guess they wore those every soldier blunt about cups, walkin around walk in there now, but sometimes when their walk in there actually out on the street. Looking for people who resemble a suspect that they have in the jail house- and they say hey, you could come on over here. How do you like to make ten bucks a person's

exactly how copper and the cop says by standing in is what we call a filler in police wine or they dislike, Hamper Simpson, and when they are like a boat raffle that they said he had to condemn the police station Gay one about here and then they they beat a merciless firm like parking, unpaid parking tickets, shut out the Beth Shuster, who wrote this article in the year in I J Journal the National Institute of Justice. I believe that right, yeah they're pretty much committed to keeping people from being wrongly convicted. So I would guess the Jason's reject this year, and this is this is a good start, whom we had some other stuff. We added to it, but thank you. Ms Shuster yeah we yet well. I already led into the episode and it didn't take salami, try again, this energy article you sent in culture.

A dude name, Jerry Miller, who back and nineteen eighty one was twenty two years old, I believe, and Jerry Miller had a predict, early bad day when he was arrested and he was charged with robbing kidnapping and raping a woman and he got convicted. He was convicted because two people, too, Witnesses saw him in the lineup, picked him out and then later at trial. The victim said. Maybe that's him. Maybe it's not. Boot cares. There's two eye witnesses. Pick this schmo out of a line up he's done. Yet he did twenty four years in prison and you may notice from the tone that I'm using here he was wrongfully convicted yeah. He actually get out of here.

In and was living life release on parole wearing an angle, bracelet a monitor constantly as a registered sex offender right and then, finally, I think gum. Oh, I'm not quite sure of two thousand seven into doesn't seven as part of the innocents project here which redundant episode, I'm with them but lady. What is her name, o Haulin onstage bill, but its deftly non euro Hollis Zine you Jerry, I want to say Polly Shore, so bad This is what we did is evident right. We do innocence, project episode and under the innocents project

Jerry Miller was exonerated through dna evidence. He incontrovertible did not do this and lost twenty four years of his life because of flawed eyewitness. Testimony yeah. So you know this is all about police lineup more about me will tell you how they work in a general sense, but this sort of more about how you now it such an imperfect system but sort of the take away from all of this. There were about to go over with all the studies in the trying different things is kind of. Like you know, it's an imperfect system we can try and craft the best way we can, but human memory is imperfect. Identifying people in lineups is imperfect, Ryan were just it's kind of the best we got right now. Right for a lot of people are like git array of I testimony really altogether. Yes, all together humans suck eyewitness testimony

and there's a lot of reasons. Why, like people out there like a one near me, a bad guy, sure show me a lineup, I'm in a pick, one of those guys out new, not doing that their their subjects. To basically the way our brains are wired. We don't walk around videotaping everything that we see here. You know we get constantly bombarded, with sensory information and under normal circumstances. You know you see strange on the street. You just see there's another and I ve done a fight. Him is not a threat and keep walking by if that person turned out to be accused of a crime or or- perpetrated crime, and you were brought in to say was this the person you saw your brain is going to try to reconstruct with little pieces of memory it formed of that person and there's a lot of things alot of factors that are involved that can make that really difficult task. Even harder. Yeah

I am someone who has told myself chuck pay attention like if you're ever in a situation like pay attention trying collect yourself and try and remember a few really good data It is about the car or the person so like this is on my mind, and I actually had a city vision. When I would then I happened to me where I had to go through a police lineup and failed. A really was the suspect air net well now here's here's the quick version, as I was in a hidden run this lady, these two lady. They suit the younger girls. They were probably teenagers me from behind in my car. I start my car start to get out and they take off so to hit and run while I chased them, which is should not do now, where you shooting into the air to slowdown, trying to shoot at the time

You have the wrong now, but I did chasing so so mad and your adrenaline de shoots through the roof. When something that happened, so immediately you're, just not yourself, unlike recording details, sales trying to catch up to get a license plate, I saw that they went down the street that I knew was a dead end like a goddamn. It wasn't a cul de sac, but it functions like a cul de sac. So I stopped where I was cut out the car sure enough twenty seconds later they come home. But back toward me and the look on their faces was like you know, o snap there's the guy right and they D sped right pass me in. I saw their faces as they sped pass me in their car. The cops found the car found the people there

We didn't do that, and so are these girls these? Well, that's the long and short of it is all you have to do and so like that, I didn't do it and if I can't pick you out, then you get away and they should only pictures of like you know these were like teenage young teenage hispanic women. They showed me, probably probably fifteen pictures and said: can you can them like now? It was a month ago. They sped pass me for a second, like I couldn't even or to guess- and I didn't want to do that- you know. Well, that's very sensible of you yet is in wanting a stab at its eyes like now. I have no idea in their basic like sorry, they said they didn't, do it while sake, but you have the car and its damaged. Unlike none of that matters are not now, if you get a dinner by me like see that they could be like oh yeah. That happened some other time in some other him run. I mean, but here the long story

those I'm someone who has tried to tell myself to be act in the right ways, and I couldn't tell them much beyond like the color of the car and title. Would it look like cause? You were? being read, cause you're mad. You ain't writers, I get right. Let's there are bodies are not prime to form. Memories, Vienna, where our, where energy goes its more

egg getting away or shooting other tires of a car that is hit and ran right. I know what you did with the line up is the other side of the coin. The other problem with lineups is or eyewitness testimony from lineups is that sometimes people pick out people who were innocent and other times people fail to pick out the people who are actually the perpetrators. So it's, like you, said the very every for its is flawed system. The problem is the wrong. People can go to jail and those people who actually did it can get away with it. So that's an extremely flawed system in when something that important is on the table, then Numb it needs to be fixed and there's a lot of people looking into how it can be.

But were not there yet by any stretch, you know and here's a stat you're talking about the dna exoneration, seventy five percent of the first one hundred and eighty three exaggerations and the U S were wrongfully convicted because of eyewitness testimony police lineups, say to seventy five percent. Seventy five percent of the hut first hundred eighty three so like the innocents project is basically like a pilot study show through dna exoneration, all the ways that we wrongfully convict people and what is coming to the to the front? Is I witness testimony Yan at the basis of that is the police, lineup right and one other thing? That's that's problematic with the eyewitness testimony

if you want to while a jury, bring out an eye, witness who seems totally sure that what they saw but that they saw the person there pointing to and the defendant, sable yeah or that that dramatic moment it's like a movie trope now, you know is person in this room right. Let the records show that at any rate, eyes shining at the defend my right yeah. So the problem is, it has a huge impact, but it's also really cruddy wit, really cruddy evidence. There's this guy. He had a great quote. He says it I witnessed. Testimony is a very unusual, complex kind of trace evidence and it's difficult to recover. Easy to contaminate am very hard to handle, and I just that there's no better description of I witnessed testimony if I was ever in court in some one identified me from the witness stand, I would do that thing where you look it behind you when they pointed out you, you speak. I think you're talking about

guy. Behind me I get they would say no, and they would point again- and I would move a little bit more like this- this witnesses clearly disturbed and then, if that more acute escalator, I'm rubber in your glass. Here they usually works right. So there's a couple of other things that makes I witnessed testimony problematic, chuck In addition, in not being like him video recorders, sure there, I'm in visa are right. There are some. There are circumstances, especially surrounding a crime that can make it really difficult to remember. If you're in a fighter flight situation, yeah you're not forming memories, if there's a weapon there are people tend to focus on the weapon. Sure you me was mugged once The opposite happened to her. She remember what the person look like, but she didn't even remember that there is a weapon and her friends are like yeah. There was a gun, oh interesting, yeah, and she went to a line up in like

the guy out and when you miss Bulletproof, so she hears TAT your gun. Shove it leaving. It didn't recognize it number that makes sense if someone poles a gun on you or has a switchblade or some other kind of creepy weapon. The human instinct is to focus your attention on that thing. Point you. Apparently people can really describe right, the gutter weapon, but your focusing on the weapon. You not focused on the person who is holding the weapon typically, but helps a little bit, but not as much as the fate right and then another problem is, if you are a say in hispanic, dude and you're, a witness to a crime and its a white guy who's. The perpetrator, you're, going to have a tremendous amount of difficulty. Picking that, like I up, is sad as it is to say from a lineup of other white guys near because I witnessed testimony that crosses race or ethnicity

these is x known to be bury unreliable yeah, because it's just more difficult for us buddy, Evanna, Edna City, ethnicity, or a race to two separate or identify. People of another ethnicity or race, yeah, and I don't think it's the case- work. Poor. Like all white people. Look the same to me. It's just weird brain science right, you know right. You just a harder time from way back when we were basically took, took and took, took live with fifteen other people that looked just like because they had all been inbreeding for generations and generations and they had to be on the out for another group of people who been embryo for generations and generations that wanted their jack fruit tree that they live by. Let's check route, oh that word Jack Foods under the big huge thing, a big huge one day. It actually makes a killer,

barbecue vehicle shredded like shredded pork, vague in standing, ok really get gotcha. Alright, let's take a break and will talk about the fundamentals of the run of the mill police lineup right up to this new year's resolutions are very, very difficult to keep getting exercise save more money. What have on this? We have a resolution that you can really work with stop wasting time going to the post office that right, you stamps dot com instead because they bring all the services of the. U S: postal service, right to your computer, with your small business sinning invoice,

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go to the post office. Again, all right so run of the mill police lineups. I mention that before we left, everyone seen movies and tv shows, and it's not too far off, actually be there a couple of ways you can do it there are wine apps, where you look at someone in front of your face right and then they're lineups, like I had in LA or look at the photographs, the ones you know it's way more sexy for a tv show or movie to line them up in the traditional way right. It's extraordinary! Really sexy like a live play. Like you see on tv jerk and then there are the simultaneous were sequential there's a lot of debate which will get into an a minute about which is best to me. It's pretty obvious that sequential is best. Simultaneous is the one that you see on tv. They line up six

seven deeds or ladys, and you identify them. Usually them usually well put depends. Organ ended the fillers for the foils, but Usually only one of those people is a suspect in, like the best ideal version of right, then their sequential and that's when they, bring out one person at a time and bring out like seven guys, one at a time- and you say you Know- let me know at the end of this which, when you think it was or if it's a photo lineup, Show you one photo editor exactly yeah. I agree with you, I think sequential his head and shoulders, the better one of the of the two year and hears the final little piece of how it can vary, is whether or not administrator that the person is in charge of Administering Alina knows who the purpose is or not get us a big women. So it's double bind, which means they don't even know into me. It seems obvious that that's always the best way, because there are many many circumstances where you had actually

even if you don't want to or mean to lead a witness and one example they gave here. This article is, if they say, and if they identify filler or foil, acre aid, a personal pay. Ten bucks did ass the person the administrator might say, take your time sure like you really need to take. Your daughter is basically like saying wrong, pretty much they just Ireland, lesser or conversely, if a thumb when they're doing it, sequentially when they get to like number forty like war, hello got a guy like that bag is guilty, a sum, but they can like even just a smile or something like that off, like a nonverbal q, you don't even mean to do right, or you may mean today

cuz. You know that that's the guy and you know it in your bones that that guy did it right and you're leading the witness right. You can be some some sort of nonverbal gestures. The problem is, is that most people, I can't say most people, but it's been shown that some bull when their broad in as a witness for a police lineup feel like it's their role, its their job. To pick, somebody for the cup, right so there more than happy to be led by the cops, because in their fulfilling their role, and they did what they were supposed to do right so another another technique heard there waiting minister, a good line up is to say the hero, here's the lineup, whether it sequential them one at a time or all at once, simultaneously right

the the suspect may or may not be in this line up yeah. That seems like I think they found that reduced mistaken identity rates were lower when they did this, so you would think just always do that right, right because it says to the witness, like the person may not be in here, like a none of the above, the dreaded letter e, none of them, I would like a God. Does it? Does that mean that there that the answer is not here, and so you may you may say I don't. I don't see em where if they don't say that you're going to presume that the suspect is in that line up right, energy, your job, to find that person- and you have to pick somebody most people are going to think. Like my can't say on does not going to be like three oversaw it's a crime against you most a lot of times when you're MIKE picking

this purpose sure yeah. So you want them to be in M found or whatever. Yet it's a really good point to you. Want you don't want to get away with it and the other thing too, as I think, there's a natural human instinct when given a test to not want to say I can't like you, you might feel like you fail right. That's why I admire you saying that, like with the phone line up, you know not not being not just being like this is to write these two year better, That would amount to my case has vowed, said these two and is there like? Now? That's not the lady whose car was, but a lot of people still would have right right, and it probably wouldn't say no that's wrong. They would have been like okay thanks a lot for your time or whatever, and then you would have left me but like he was so close, some other research. It's interesting that suggest, when there is an offender in line up that young children. Elderly perform about as well as just regular young adults, but

the lineup does not have the actual offender. Then they commit mistakes, a lot higher and to me, that's disco, I think kids and elderly might not fully understand. I think they have to pick somebody. Ok, yeah. I agree at exactly what it is to the research bears out. It looks like right. So there's there is some like you. You ve talked about research, there's a lot of research in this, but it's become ambiguous right if you stepped back and you listen to all the different different things that you do with a line up it because very clear that a sequential double blind line up where either one photo

This aspect is shown to the person that time or one lived suspect is brought out to be looked at one person at a time and is administered by a cop or a worker. Somebody who doesn't know who the suspected that that's going to reduce the chance of a misidentification or a failure of an identification and that the person whose being presented with these people is not going to be able to guess right and if they actually do remember who the perpetrator was they're going to

unites them into just obvious that that's the best way to do it right. The thing is: is there was a study in Illinois that is completely rocked. That idea, that that that's the case, because there was a three or five year- study in Illinois that looked at different types of lineups and compared them side by side and found that actually know that double blind, sequential line up actually produces worse results, ran a a simultaneous non double blind one right, but then again not so fast or that, because other people since then have questioned the methodology they used in that programme and kind of said. You know, I don't even know if we can take this risk

urge and take these statistics seriously right, caso method, method, illogically was a screwed up study like they rarely drop the ball on the study, yeah numb, and I think we mention the two judgments either during simultaneous lineups. When everyone standing there gather use, what's call relative judgment. In other words, you compare all the dude standing up there against one another and with the law where they trot him out one at a time they use something called absolute judgment, which is supposedly means they're, comparing it to only their memory and not to the people that came before after right. That's that's the hope. That's the ideal right right, but with this resource in the research in the study I kind of didn't even know what to think. Does it sort of went against the grain and the findings? But then they said I don't. Even we can trust these findings because a methodology was no good right, so we ended up. Back at square one with the Illinois pilot Programme. It seems like yet

and why the method methodology was so terrible, they used the double blind procedure for sequential lineups, but they didn't use it for simultaneous lineups. So have come were it certainly your inadvertently leading people with simultaneous lineups. Then of course those those are going to produce some correct choices with suspects better than the one that the double blind, sequential one they d come paired. Apples the oranges right in this study. It's almost like Ex greater came up without actually conduct a study that the Illinois Legislature said. Illinois state police go go figure this out. You do a three year study on this and they came back and said. Ah- and it is it's terrible and the problem is as if it is true that a sequential double blind study is the way to go that it is just smarter and works better. That study set that back by

years, because now all the cops all over the country heard they did this study and it's actually worse, not design of the study was flawed method, illogically, just it does work yet even went to the cops at the Illinois pilot Programme. Talk to them and they said the majority. The officer said they didn't think that it was superior and said that witnesses who can identify the offender, do so under either procedure and officers express concerns that using a blind administrator, disrupts the relationship and investigator has tries to build the witness I interpret all that as its cops, and can we just keep doing at the way we ve always done it because it gets results right, but the thing is they have some pretty good.

Points in that, if you are running a line up or whatever you put together like six pack- is what it's called a new s where you ve got three and three a mug shots of people and or anything in Canada, the usually use twelve, but you put the sing the gathered. Then you have to fine like a patrol officer or a sigh June or somebody who has no idea. What's going on with your kid, you want to do it by Gordon Rail and then those put the that person has to go to the house record the young them what the person did and then come back and tell you it's just an extra thing that cops are like did this is just making it way too hard yeah, I mean they sit in here that sometimes even have trouble coming up with the blind administrator, and maybe it's a of it probably has everything to do with budgets show my thought is like: why is it there one person that does only this all too great?

It just is called the administrator of the line of administrator and goes to the people's houses. IRAN's him in the end the precinct or whatever, and this is the only thing that they do but I'll do it, bringing the administrative, that's a tv show it, and I have the honour its We budgetary gotta, be they. They also found with a lot of these when there's multiple perps. It just goes pay wire yeah, because sometimes they'll put two of the purpose in the same line up right, righteousness, super confusing That falls in line with like how to build like a decent line up the right way and wool covered that and where they get people to stand in as suspects after this

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But then he heard how Geico proud partner of any Joe could save him money on car insurance, so he switched and saved a bunch, so it all worked out. Are you took a year just talking about how, if you have a line up, and you put to suspects that you got say there are two guys who robbed some lady in you- have five people in the lineup, but two of them are yours suspects that actually is totally unfair. For these aspects shook his. What you ve done just then, is increased the chance that somebody could guess.

Just guess randomly at the suspect right here. If you have five people in a line up- and one of them are the suspect than that person has a one in five chance of being chosen by random chance right. But if there's two suspects in a five percent lineup, they have a two out of five chance, which is why more than a one in five chintz, some people might even say double the chance right, and so that's just less so one of the standards that you want to fulfil if you're putting together a line up in your cup, is that you one suspect per line up, which is covered it to do than you would think It seems like a lot of the problem with this is an even say so. In the end, I J articles, it lab studies, are one thing

actually implementing this in the field they get different results and people are doing lab research on one end. Cops are out in the field, sometimes are in people's homes, sometimes her and the precinct, and it seems like the two heads aren't talking very much right and there are people you know they did like. Oh alive web chat. At some point to bring together all these experts from around the world and they kind of all around me where, like this is a big mess and we need to all combined forces to try and do the right thing and the feeling I get. Is it a lot of these police precincts Can I want to be left alone to emulate? They know it works and it works, you know, but does it well, that's the question right so on they finger a collar right that the right

she finger to call here. Then it's all good days work right, but if they figure the wrong color and it's no good still. So one of the reasons is that somebody, a cop would put a to suspects in a line up is not just like increase the chances that one of the suspects gets picked by an eye witness its because sometimes it can be hard to come up with people for life. Yet this is hard to believe like just. They can't find people sometimes right well, and the reason why? Because, let's say you have multiple witnesses and each witness gives you a different description of the perpetrator right right, ideally you're, going to find a different line up for each witness, yeah like if their three witnesses, you should run three lineups right, because it is

options are probably somewhat different right. That can be difficult matter and there's a couple of ways to handle a lineup. You can do a suspect, matched line up where you ve got a suspect and to keep your suspect from standing out You make all the other people in the lineup. Look like you know your suspect. Yet that's one way or another is to do the perpetrator description match strategy, which is you ve got nets when you have no suspects right, you know you witness account. You can have a suspect but you're, creating your line up based on what the what the witness has described, the perpetrator to look like and then just throw the suspect in their right, which can be bad for the suspect because of the suspect, the person, you actually think did it didn't like any like the eyewitness said right. There's gonna be for redheads in the one blind guy who's. Actually, the suspects he's gonna stand out like a sore throat, so there's a lot of different things that have to be massage.

To try to make everybody in the lineup. Basically look all like the perpetrator, air, the eyewitness described right or all like the suspect that you ve got because you dont want the suspect to stand out and there's a lot of techniques that they used to try to make everybody look the same year, one of the main they'd, like you said they dress people. It was funny that when the article set in the Bronx precinct, they usually put them in Yankees hats, re slant of a bunch causing Yankees right. There was that have like five Yankees head saying and outside of that. You know that room where they were coming into wooden Kramer in line up when he was the suspected totally serial killers aspect. Yes, but I don't remember, was a serial killer by members in the line of ink upturn in the wrong way. He had think he was misidentify

on that, when they went away to pitch the tv show her Kramer get caught up in some like serial killer thing. I think of that and I think of the great line up scene in the usual suspects wit. Let's address that real quick when they have to say something so Jimmy while you, we can't repeat here backwards right. No, What I was going to say is that that lineup would never happen, because not only do you have to suspects in there all five people The line up your suspects and they're not dress the same. Yet the adds its total movie line. It would never happen now or you can say about them. Well, they they had to recite a line on and how typical that, as though I? U me when she did her line up, she remembered what The guy was saying and they all have the data yeah. Ok, so that's the thing and she's like liniment. Can I do, I have to say would have right. I say they said in the cap was like yeah she's.

Really what I wanted and physical, you had to say what they actually said. How did that result that you get there Oh, she picked amount of media guy got busted, my sir You know my view me I'll. Tell you that buddy you hear that perps ring visa quickening your boots. The one thing it to their caught me sort of off guard. Is there never thought about is the up the part about whether another clean shaven like there could be details of omission like if I wouldn't doesn't remember, or does it mention that day there were clean shaven are not, then I think they default to something that may not be here, it involves on your line up while you're lineup should have all come. Shaven dude. You should just assume that if they didn't say the guy had a beard that that doesn't that

That doesn't mean that the guy had a beer and they just didn't say it right, just assume it means that their clean shaven and they did they should all be clean, shaven and my line up cause. If you have five clean shaved, guys and one filler or one foil, with a big beard. Like me, her I don T get picked out. Just as I look different right exactly or if, if the one guy is clean, shaven and you're like well. They didn't say that the person at a beer, but they also didn't say they Didn'T- have a beard right. So I can put this clean. Shaven suspect him with four other guys who all have beards and make him stand out. That's the opposite, and apparently There is a New York Times article from years back about a guy named Elliot was his name, the casting age. It basically Weston yeah Robert Weston. It's it's pretty interesting little article in the article that says that the the Bronx cops that use this guy to help fill line up social talk about in the second that when they give the perpetrators, like the Yankees, hats or whatever for the line

like? The perpetrators always want to pull down over his. I have to be like dude put but see her. Yes, where their hat media exactly like that arrests are gonna, pick you out, so they actually are trying to help the perpetrator at least not stand can be like me, you know instead just keep. It on the level, at least as far as the Yankees Het brooms go. I still want to be a feller. I'm sure you to do it, I want to get the hang around long enough until it due to looks like you commits a crime which, in Atlanta I'm sure, there's a lotta hipsters runnin around assured by Europe's honour. I look like it. The hipster gone bad, oh yeah. I'm not need enough to be. Have you look like a hidden run. Hips hipsters are super well quaffed like squared away. Oh, I know to me yet: you're Eugene's aren't pay

Now I would like a hipster who slept in so back to rubber western this guy in New York at the time at least you believe her little money. He made human got ten dollars for putting together a complete line up, and they said sometimes he does as many as four in a day and sometimes not at all, like so a good day for him is forty bucks. That's what it sounds like handle that, maybe that's the problem is any did well again its budgetary broadway. Pay a little bit more get a casting agent in their get some of those college, educated fellers and there I I guess in an hour had made it sound like I don't know Nepal and people off the street sometimes are homeless people. Sometimes there like drug attics. Yeah I mean it. I guess it depends on who the purposes. Sometimes I get other cops then aren't busy to stand. It

right. I mean these are pure. There is a real need. People will go to a police station and stand in line four ten dollars right. They get paid as much as a guy who organise the party right. But if robber Western stands in himself, he'll get an extra twenty on top of putting the thing together. I am an exact he tries to do that, but he he even said like if they were. Likewise, I don't know any white guys, so they go to homeless, shelters for that and right, that's very much. What cops do cops will go. Find people on the street they'll go to homeless, shelters, they will have casting aid. Like were Weston on their speed dial and what they'll say is I've got a middle aged. Why guy? with the greying beard and armies about six feet tall. You gimme for other people that match that description right and ideally for other people that that it's a description will show up and not three and then one other total

outliers? Something like that, but the one cup is complaining about. His work is gonna funny right complaining about robber western. He was I going ahead and bring good people. He always like pledges the ages and cases and stuff, but the reason why they keep using this guy is because he answers is fun. What time you call him he can put a lineup together, for you If you have a very limited amount of time, you can only hold a suspect for so long charging them, but you want to put in a line up for what's called an investigatory line up here to where you just want to see, maybe bring him one witness just to see if you're on the right track, you got a very limited amount of time and you need people like that, which means that you have a lower quality one. Fortunately, that would just before an investigatory one if it were for a confirmatory want. That's the one that you see on tv words like you, bring in a witness. You ve got your suspect in their sitting in jail and you bring about that

the one where I like, all the tea should be crossing the. I should be dotted because a good court well here it will want to know the details of how that line up, went and, if anything sounds hanky they'll toss out bright out there. I witnessed testimony out the worst possible version of all of this is something called a show up, and this is something this is also movie trope, that you see and that's when an officer brings a witness to a place to show the witness the suspect it's been apprehended oh, like they're in the back of a car or here's, what happens in a movie there's a guy in the back of a police car handcuffed, though bring the the person who was robbed or whenever there to the scene, the yank him out the back of the car and say, is this the dirt bag? Who did it like just one guy you and that's clearly the worst boss

version about this in the guys, like any more pace, a pay I'm coming down. So it's a wonder that here's, the reason why that show up is so terrible, Chuck. Well, there's no other people that their comparing them too. That's one, but there also in handcuffs in the back of a cop car, something like that, their in police custody and so the eye witness is going to assume that, in addition to their testimony, the cops obviously have something on this person, and so there must mean the cops knows that person- and this is just a formality. So am, I guess, you're that was that person right? That's the first problem with it. The second problem is that, from that point on that person that they ve just seen now becomes the star of their memory of that crime right. It's like they photoshop this person's face to that vague, shadowy face that holding the gun that they were actually focused on air and from that moment on they just more and more certain that that was the person because

persons now starring in their memories, and it's not just the problem with the shoah, but with any misidentification when they see that person That person become seared in their brain right, their positive from that point on, and they can seem very confident in court which again juries by yeah, though its garbage well in weeks and months, can go by right between the point that you have experienced a crime and when you maybe identifying someone or a court for sure, as months and months and months later right, so hen pardon me does think like get rid of all this. People say that, or at the very least say this is I witnessed testimonies actually terrible testimony that the terrible evidence but only with any right, but if they didn't say that basically lowered what what how much weight I witnessed testimony held in court right then those case

is that were built entirely on eyewitness. Testimony wouldn't have a leg to stand on after go build a bigger case yeah, but like a unique case. It worked It did not like that. I'm not a walk. You know right, that's! The problem is that you know if, if twenty five to twenty five percent of the time is wrong right, seventy five percent of the time is right. We ve had so I mean it's, not it's not like arson investigation, which we're gonna do one on one day words just totally made up a good does have some veracity, but there's a lot of flaws with it and they lives are at stake. Thoats, really right icy. They need to figure it out because of that near so they need to go. Do that now I mean, can you imagine anything worse than being misidentified and serving no two decades in prison for something you

really didn't do now. I really can't I remember how said I got when we did. The innocents project is just eagerly stories and then they get out there like mahars is four hundred thousand bucks. We feel pretty bad gives us some nice try to forget about all this right. Here's your movie, an innocent man with Tom Selling, scared Jesus out of the same thing happened to him when he was when he was, he was framed away. That's highroad to China, the horizon, a gun I had stuff makes no that's Quigley down under those. I write anything else nope, I all that's it for police lamps for now will do an update whenever they get it figured out we tabled on. Please sketches right does is it we don't know we still got arson.

We got a lot, alright, yeah! Okay, if you want to know more about police lineups, then I don't know: go hang around a police station see if you can stand in one learn: firsthand. Ok, Google sign that says I will be your foil ten dollars yep since I said ten dollars just time to listen to me, I'm going to call this youngest fan is very cute. Email, hey, guys, love the podcast you're doing it right. It's not at this email is not episode specific, but I had to tell you about this. My husband and I welcomed our baby boy into the world couple months ago, when I was pregnant with joke that the baby would think that one of you was his dad because he heard your voice is so often that's a very funny joke.

Family joke about here. Fraternity of your child is now that he's here I've been playing music in the car and set about gas thinking. Music helps com him well. One day is growing in the car, I couldn't get him the calm down. She was like what's wrong, with dark in revising the dock. In working I can get the countdown with any of the usual tricks, so I decided to heck with it and go to put on the podcast, and I kid you not soon, as you guys started talking, he stopped crying. My husband says it was coincidence. Stuffy should no magic an hour an hour back to always listened, he does in the car and keep up the great work and thanks for soothing my baby boy, and that is from Sarah strands and our youngest Van Frank from beautiful mouth, pleasant, South Carolina. That's all some! Thank you. So much for the email, Frank go to sleep quiet they named their baby after Archer yeah, it's free when the opium

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