What began as a challenge to an oil engineer to make a terrible singer into a pitch-perfect one, Auto-Tune has become a ubiquitous (and, to many, obnoxious) part of the musical soundscape. Learn more in this classic episode.
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now stuff you should know dot com or wherever books are sold. Are you music friend? Do you need more music talk in your life? Then you should be listening to record store society of music talks about cast on the irish radio network Beckett store society is a virtual trip to your local record star, hosted by me, terror Davies Me Suffolk, Louis Johnson, every Friday of fine seven. I, behind the counter at your favorite record story, dispensing recommendations, making lists and talking to our customers about anything and everything. Please aggravated so listen to record store society on the heart, radio, up apple podcast or wherever you get. Your pot costs. Hey everybody a two year old PAL Josh, and for this week's s by s case selects I've chosen how auto tomb works came out in August. Two thousand teen and it's one of my under the radar favorites, because it looks at something that's worked its way into every crevice of popular culture, but that none of us really has any
de about how it works or where it came from, and this episode is US show listener male round table with us and Holly and Tracy from stuff. You missed in history class all about sexism that super interesting and really kind of our left field after the auto tuna episode This combination and I hope you enjoy Welcome to step you should now production of Iheart Radios, Housetop work and welcome. The podcast on George poured through Charles De Richard Wright, there's Jerry Missis, You should know that was great expense. Joyce. Unlike share the visa MIKE T paint, Egypt, Josh, T, Josh or Snoop Dog, she do the other. Do he factors in this big time?
it around. While I don't even know about that's got them on my sleeve. Really this is kind of fun, I don't know how much we're gonna do that, because people are probably like stop it right now, oh check out Greece is doing it, I ll be done behind it. We could have just voted in this whole thing. You know. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe we should maybe from this moment where we should just started to the rest of the episode. Yet starting now, let's sabotage our careers you gonna, Inter this fancy intra. I think we just did it but ok. Well, let's get the Wayback machine and my friend ok we're not go back that far cuz. I know a short trip. Let's go back to o summer of ninety. Ninety eight
during the club were hanging out were drinking roaming coke you can find it in the club and where it were dancing, we're getting down and proven to share its latest jam fully believe a hot jammed? The hot hot pot jam that's released the summer summer time and you can tell scooter hot hot and the club got. I've got my my my shop, it I'm just like I'm out for a night Roxbury attracted, I'm wearing a see through much so Secondly, how did you not well yeah? The third nipple really stands out so We're in the club were german and chairs on his on, and something happens at about thirty five seconds into the song, and you and I are dislike, flowed daddy. Did you just hear that be changed? Everything changed the whole The club like the club was like okay and now it's Bang
yeah, I don't look here because of a little something called auto tune. What sounded like a little electronic glitch was very purposeful. It was the first time the auto had been used in this way. So what Josh is auto tune the Kurdish. Can we do the rest? The episode in the club, when I just keep those roman scalps common ethical? so to check the meat. Let me Savvee per second right, because the way you described it you make it sound like everybody's, like oh sure, just used out of tune Nana now everybody said what would that yeah? That was awesome.
although some people were like what was that? Don't ever do that again sure, but most people will think while share just released her biggest head of her entire career as a pretty long career yeah. She just came back like that. Just established or come back was this track yet, and it actually became one of the greatest best selling singles of all time yet, and I think mean it would have been a probably a big song anyway, but I think most definitely Otto Tune kicked it into the stratosphere gave it does that sure something s man. It became part of the the talk. If everyone is talking about so everybody went to her producer and said dude. How did you you that we want to know how to do that. He's a voter, light. He lie like big time. He lied in person. The other producers he lied in interviews he's alive.
Lied lied about how he made that track, because he wanted to keep it to himself because it was so huge in it became so huge chuck that at First Otto Tune was called the share affect yeah, even the company that produced auto tune and Terry's, which will talk about a minute called it. their instructional book. The share effect. They probably still do don't need no mention it any longer, really near ok, but the the Zaragoza it was a huge. Steel and this guy Leyden Captain under wraps and for many years it was very mysterious. Yet, let's action if you live under a rock? Let's go ahead play that clip of the very first thirty five seconds into that song were share, says
I can't break through, and you are right there during the music changed from that point forward. Okay, so for commerce, what what this guy were producer was saying I was voter volker- is something has been around for a long time, a few virilis in any PETE Frampton Peer Frampton, any thing to do feel like we do their whole long, guitar, solar, whatever, breathing into a tube connected. Do his guitar yet is electrifying is voice. vote could have been around for a very long time here, but there's different is of doing it. That without was definitely the though the tube effect through the guitar, but you can also just use it to me now make your voice robotic, like back sure, to turn tables in a microphone bright or Mr Obama was sticks, yeah, but all different ways to use. It
this thing this sounded different, the share effect, it was a little different sure and I wonder how this guy talked his way out of the way the lie. Yeah, I mean like if, if if user is like. Ok, we'll show me how it is a non voter, if you like over here and then just like, ran out of the room. I don't I don't again taxes out of it. I think he's just another lying music produce. Her can use just like Egmont busted, ok, so apparently along the way people figured out here there what this guy did in ninety ninety eight with believe and they started using it themselves very, very sparsely aright, so Josh? What is only through your question. Cuz I'm gonna, keep asking it so auto tune. Is a plugin originally released, anti ninety seven for the audio editing software protocols, yeah. It's a software peace that allows
I wish you and the original intent and how it still mostly used is to pitch correct singers voice right. So when you, when you are, I go into the studio to record those albums that will never released, but we disregard for fine. We have flat notes. there are not me. I perfect bitch. I hit fight here there I dont perfect. That's ever but he does it's a normal thing. Sure most of eternity, music producers would say blue eyes chairman. I need another take. That was a great take, but he had a couple of flight, not gimme. Another. Take just like that, one and frankly, as finishes scotch put out a cigarette and say you get one more shine head what was the Joe you don't even see spinal there. Did you get the violence ought. Finally, ok, but I don't remember any Frank Sinatra Juliet,
when Bruno Kirby as the limo driver, he sees talks about Sammy, Davis's book. Yes, I can, and he says what they should call. It is yes, I can as long as Frank says, it's ok, frank, Albert jobs for all those guys hire. You remember that so and could sing or more take, and this could be like take twelve or fifteen or twenty area depend like how much how much they person was feel The singer was feeling it at the time and would be happy to hang around the studio. Yet I was keeping the singer there at the studio that was around visiting her singer was happy to give it one try all more triangular drugs, maybe ok. or if they are like really good canny, both sure who knows I gotta stay for the skills, so the editor. Then the music producer would then take all these different tracks and would go through, and I can't imagine how awful this would be. Take the best part of
track edited together with the best part of that track here and like we're talking like pre digital era, select their splicing together tape. Sure from what I understand, get right to get the best possible complete, take right he's together from maybe I found aches right. Ok, that's that's what they did all of a sudden and ninety ninety seven there's this new software that just runs through a take and says. Oh, I see what note there what key the singers singing in, but this this particular knows just a little out, so I'm going to nudge it sure into the key that the singer was going for and now all of a sudden one take is all it takes. Yeah I mean what it did was cut down on studio time, which a super expensive yeah, which has very appealing his naked churn out songs at her
more rapid rate in a cheaper rate, and it was, it was a little sort of a secret tool that they didn't intend to like get out to the public think they wanted everyone and other stuff. Now I was meant for professionals gear and basically, with you, sir, it was the the musical, audio, equivalent of cosmetics. Yes, doctor it was invented by Doktor, Harold Andy Hildebrand, and he likened it make up and the New Yorker likened it to my getting rid of a red eye and a photograph exactly it was just you use it just enough, so that, can't tell it's there, but it makes for a more pleasant overall composition night what share had done or what shares producers had done here is take this thing and used it to the nth agree. Yes, supposedly it was just a joke. share was like. I love that, but that's like I don't know, that's an urban legend of that fact
Well from what I read that her producer, she was she wanted like em. She had heard like some telephone effect that you interested in using like she wanted something, and I guess the producer had stumbled upon that and dumb pleaded for both like you're, not gonna like this, but would listen to this weirdness issues like that. I want that nice that's what I read well. I think that, with a view to her giving it the green light than that was truly like or site, like a masterful move by sheer rat, you know well sure, has lot aforethought. You know they say. Don't don't doubt chair and share, has alot of foresight never but against share. Yet so, when she did make that decision, it change like he said it changed everything, and will we it? Talk enough about this, but we're gonna take a break and then come back and talk more about it right after this is
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for seventeen years. Looking for oil yeah, you crazy. They did to warrant too terribly far apart royal, as we will find out so he's of professional flouted classically train fires, a good one from what I understand. Flatness flute. Yes and he went to college to get it Electra Engineering degree. I think, and basically what, when he went to work for the oil companies, it was an oil exploration and he figured out a programmer Edith designed to software that when you set offered an explosive charge underground, it measured the pitch of stuff of the sound waves that that were created right as they travel through rock different types of rock. We adjust the pitch. Basically, in the software like analyze, the pitcher was coming
and could create a subsurface map of the rock below, and oil companies have long known that this type of rock is associated with oil, and this type of rock is not maybe a fine natural gas in this type of rock. So with this I creating an audio visual map of the sub surface area, oil companies a longer headed, just drill and drill, and hope that they found raw oil. He would say this is a pretty pretty great place to drill, because, kind of rock. Is there that's right? It's called auto correlation and it saved Exxon, a lie. of money and he somehow made a lot of money. I thought I was gonna be one, things were like Exxon was just like thanks. You work for us from doing here's your forty five thousand dollars. but apparently he earned enough money. to retire by the age of forty thanks to this innovation, and in the early ninety nine ass. He got out of oil business and
sounded like it's just the popularity he founded in terrorist audio technologies and economy are Silicon Valley in Scots Valley, California, and I think, still they only have about ten employees and it's a pretty small operation itself and him in his ideas and in yes, and he is the main event One of the first things he invented was something called infinity, which is a programme that where you could loop samples. and over and over, like seamlessly faintly. That was unnecessary thing. I didn't know that, oh yet think about we're talking like early nineties, those like the eight o. Eight acid has revolution yeah, but I didn't realize I get he made it easier. Probably is my guess: yes, I think he enable that he enable techno is the impression I have a really interesting
looping samples together seamlessly well, but you get already do that. What I'm saying is he clearly found a way to do it better and more efficiently? You write, he didn't invent looping. No, he made a better yet Another thing he did was invented. The microphone modular modeling is a big thing. In music you can get a guitar amplifier. That model rebates basically means imitate and other acts of modelling amp, which I don't use anymore cause it's not good, but it models there's like twelve different classic absent models supposedly, but he invented the modeling microphone, which means you can mimic a classic microphones or like up harmonica MIKE and Vintage MIKE's like the Elvis Presley that cooler and make sure that was on there.
is it the silver kind of round rectangular one knows got one on his desk and oh yeah yeah, that's the associated with Elvis Presley. Well, I mean just the music of that time. I get but always picture Elvis. I you know I mean I can see that you have you ever seen his grandson by the way, quick. Cyber no helium is quick signed by his quick, sidebar brusque. It's weird name here, but you know, LISA Murray was his mom value. That was very funny by the way. He just look him up. I think. What's his name became murmurs name is last name is the fathers
name. Fourthly, summaries first husband is who she had him with ok, yeah, Jessica, Elvis, Presley grandson. It is called repeated, looks exactly like Elvis at that age, like scary scary, early similar Kenny thing that I dont know if, as you use out of tune that I do now, if he thinks he probably zadig, probably because ninety per se of singers. Apparently, is auditing seem even higher than that? Really about that ninety percent admit it yeah yeah there thing about Otto Tune. Where are you deny that you use it. Even though you're totally aware that everyone uses it in article- were apparently this one producer said that he's worked with two artist that have haven't used it. Everyone else has never Nikko case in Nellie for
in an apparently later after that, Nellie for Total released a single that had tons of out of tune on it. Legal cases solid. She, maybe the only artist in the world who has used Otto tune either suddenly or to the nth agree a well that certainly not true, I think, they're plenty of indy artists, but if you're talkin, She read this verge article. It basically lays it out, like no everyone uses this even in a soap opera, producers don't even necessarily tell the band that its being used, then because there's alive function, yes, so that the monitor so the headphones set the band is hearing, is being run through auto tune, so what their hearing is already corrected? So they think they just did a perfect. Take yeah and his weary of any time. Someone says out of twenty May and singers one person doesn't that's just very dubious claim. I don't know we're talking music industry here.
Especially when a lot of people are making their own music in their own homes it's another thing. There is part of the pot machine right then I have stats and that I'm just saying that that sounds like a lotta garbage to me, I'm sure more than one person doesn't use other just one so origin came about. Apparently, this is that the tale, because of that dinner, that Hildebrand was that he was having lunch with a sales rep and the wife said something funny like hey Andy, can you once you invent, than to make me sing in tune, and he went a little progress idea does a great held? We should have auditing that of memory Kurt. Maybe we maybe it was. Maybe this happened and so he said, you know what, if I can tell Jed clamp it where the oil is that I can make using on into any did any,
he created out of tune and what kind of mention how it works. Basically, it takes it takes that take of singers song. It takes the vocals of yes on and you select a key year singing in and then auditing goes through and makes this map of this the audio of the vocal track- and it goes through answers this one's a little flat sounds a little lower whatever, and it is not just these things into tune into into the key that it supposed to be in sight. All of the notes that the singer hits in that take are within the correct key, meaning that they all sound great, it's a perfect take Oh yeah and the key there is its in the original tone and inflection of the artist rightly so you can't tell
it's happening no, and there is actually, if you look, if you look at the auto tune product demo, videos yeah, it's amazing, so there's a there's, an automatic version where, like it's just you like the key in my auditing, do it's thing and it does a pretty great job. Yet one is one of the ways that it does this is. It adds like millisecond, pauses in the growing notes, there's little spaces between notes, which gives it natural feel yeah others selections that you can make like throat link. You can select how long the singers Throwed is, and you can do that. No by note, so you can make the whole thing even more natural until basically, what you ve done is taught auto tune. How to stimulate a particular.
singers singing style and voice so that when in when it adjusts that no it does it within the same exact range that the singer would have done, had they it correctly. It pretty amazing in advance that I totally what wait when normal people think auto tune like you and me who are not in the music biz. We we think of this thing. That's called the zero Jane yes, and you know it was take a break and we will explain what the zero function is right after this.
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ass over every get your pod calf ever wondered why there are two ways to spelled doughnuts or why some people think you can find water underground just by wandering around with a stick. Believe it or not. This is stuff. You should know. You know the pod cast with over a billion listens. It's now for your eyes, so you can read it stuff. You should know an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting. Things covers everything from the origin of the Murphy bed to why people get lost become the most interesting person No now stuff, you should know dot com or wherever books are sold here. Are the suspense is creative. Leaving me you're gonna. There are eight zero funds.
that was essentially what the share effect was apparent. Yes, Go ahead. Go ahead! No! Go now, go ahead! You to set up in your chair like you're, about to wrestle you go ahead. You you talk about well what gin does in the in terms of the zero function is, is it gets rid of all of that space and when shares voice, judges, its immediate yeah? All of those notes go right up against each other yet, and it creates this robotic. a voice, the others no like rise its there's. It's not like a what's the word. I'm lookin for its symbolic normal, the broader that you would get right, because in an hour
of broader there's, there's pauses, there's space in between the note the others. With this its note showed no all pressed up against each other, yet impressed way and a zero function. It is what what it takes any spaces between the notes and creates that robots yak is, I think origin headed has a range of numbers to make it flow more. Emily and when they took it all the way down to zero, which means there's nothing there created that we are the fact that there are now share. You listen to this. It's weird yeah and she's. Like I like weird it's great baby, I hear number one hit my future though, You get about it. It's great baby Is there another? You don't know that there was Jack from mum willing. Grace oh do you remember when you he's talking to share impersonator Ojeda and he's like now, if I It turned back to it,
teaching her how to say a thing it correctly I thoroughly enjoyed will embrace of great stuff. The grades are really well agreed, Where are we? While you were talking about the sheriff factory yeah and that's what it was colleague and Tories called this zero function. The share effect for many years and dumb over time. Remember her producers is kept lying in lying in lying here. time other producers independently figured out what he had done, that he had used the zero function, which is really obscure tool on a piece of software sweet that not everybody, knew about right. So it took some some brain power and some experimentation, but little by little, some producers figured it out. This one producer did a re mix of a J low song and used it, and he, I think, was the second person to use it publicly and
it. For a brief time, it became known as the jailer effect. Of course, anybody who uses without facing up to it at first in the early two thousand- it was called the whatever effect and there's this producer up or down in Florida named T paint a boy in tee pain his jailer fatty love. He went on a mission to figure out what this was and he find. we apparently took him years to figure it out. He finally figured out that it was the zero effect on this protest plugin and he started using it and just went crazy with it. I got to this point: it was used to like twitter. It would maybe make a tracker of just a little weird over here, something like that. He used. It is often as it possibly could. Yea basically said the zero function and t pain are one and the same yet, and it became known as the tea pain effect to really here, because
when people ask him how he did it guess where he said folk odor, really, yes, no, yes, he did in four years he managed to make a meant, because the whole thing was in hip, hop or in part. If you wanted this t paint effect, t pay needed to consult, at least, if not produce your record. We, like ten years after the share effect. I did Obama know that I'd I he he managed to pull it off regret, in years and years, good for tee painters. What I say yes, you know now I mean he apparently was I come. I guess, on a plane, ride Usher was on the same plain and asked to speak to him and ushers like I gotta get something off my chest. You really screwed up music like big time. Well, payments like I made a bunch of money
innocent people seem people seem to like it. So I can stop. Hildebrand has been vilified by many, and he said you know what I just make the car. I don't drive it down the wrong side of the road YAP. Integrate quote this because a lot of people eight out of tune and the worst thing that happened to music, a lot of people like it and say when you use it for what is supposed to be used for it can really help out cause. You know it's not like everyone uses it all. The time I'm sure some people need it way more than others, while if you're using it as a light cosmetic touch, landfill, Hildebrand Brain originally designed for a lot of people say no, we shouldn't be doing that because, if you go back and listen to things like Bob Dylan or the beach boys. or just a lot of these original artists that didn't use these kind of effects on their voice They sang in their recordings, made it through the studio. There were still flat here there are, but it was their music. It was their voice. It was their vocals in these trade
and every one came to know and love em, but now because everything is out of tune perfectly, even the stuff that you don't you, I hear it's auto tune because they're not using the zero function, but just the fact that it's been run to the auto tune. This stuff sounds really rough by comparison to a lot of people are like auto of ruined music. It really music that people love for decades, because now, by comparison, aid seems rough but it also like a good year can tell us
things oughta tuna has is weird ten equality in that it doesn't sound natural, so I think it they'll be blow back in and a reversion back to older methods. Okay, I bet you jack white. Has an auditor and that's the most purist appear guys know he uses also to we're vocal effects on his stuff. No, but as far as like bet, he has ask him, he wouldn't Bennet. Apparently this part for the course year, so with tee pain. If we can get back to the house this. Buy you a drink, so t pain really hit he's huge, like he's just everything he drops is just below and up all over the place he's giving him did to consult and producer Numb Canyon. he's album yeah ultimately had about it in every trick, in order to honour, by the time t keeping got done with their right near. Have you heard his
we in the bohemian rhapsody alive. Now it is a good, oh, no, oh! No! It's there video that someone spliced of him and for infringing mercury. It's one of the war Things have ever heard on assent on the stage are gonna check it out. It's terrible! Ok, I gotta see that it hits good, so Ahmed, the teapot effect, a guess, yeah, and if you wanted this effect, you had to have tea pain. World snoop Dogs says that's enough of that. Our finally and he releases something called said: all seduction, and it's one of the better rat videos. You ve ever seen it's pretty good yeah, there's a star I've been? So you know I love it hum so snoop releases this using the t paint effect to great degree, but he didn't consult with tee pain. T painted a thing to do at this record, so snoop kind of open the floodgates saying figures want to use this go use it, but what's interest
If you watch that video, when Snoop is doing like the the t, paint a factor, the auto tune, stuff, yeah he's actually gotta too, We do a synthesizer to make it look like he's using evoke odor, interesting, weird that, as we like in this video yeah, but anyway, here that wasn't a marijuana. Smoking divine may have amendment. I may have been anything by but snoop changed everything in in, in that he took tea, paying out of the equation and really open the floodgates for anybody in everybody to use this stuff simultaneously, Jazzy was trying to kill. Those floodgates and push all of it back in ya, think Jazzy clearly jumping at a certain point. You know and major add brands are making ads using the latest and greatest that its years late. First of all- and that means it is definitely jumped the shah and in two thousand nine Wendy's had frosty posse commercial. Where
of Office workers a built it out Otto tuned rhymes while searching for of these. I don't remember that idea. I know, but I went watched it. Of course. How is it pretty great? It's what you think it is pretty great its awesome and a Jay Z apparently saw this and was enraged. and so he rode a song called the away death of Otto Tune. I know we're face in a recession, but the music, while making gonna make it the great depression, get back to wrap your tea pain into much. Let's call it. That's call someone out hard but other auto tune. In the news. Was a big Youtube hit our young man there from the bed intruder song yell at some must play clip from that from two thousand tat. It was a local news. but it's from Huntsville Alabama of Antwerp Dodson delivering, is an awesome human being here. about a neighborhood intruder and someone auditing that,
The Gregory Brothers did that's right, let's hear their way evidence. So why have used recently now is to speak But again that was in two thousand, and I think that even count I had a pretty short shelf life right unless you're still doing well, sir, would you say the Gregory Brothers, the Brook so band. Yet they started doing attitude the news yeah and they would take the nuisance- is out of tune it in turn it linked to produce it over produce it. Did that with the bench you're song and then actually became the number one video on Youtube of all of two thousand ten. I look to Europe
the original video has a hundred and twenty million views right now. Yes, yes, pretty impressive stuff. At the same point like now, attitude has become a parody of self? Yes, it's it's being used and adds shears progression. Something starts someone uses it artistically. Someone comes along and over uses it then everybody source over use. It Then Wendy's makes a commercial using Newsweek. He gets around a writing. An article about it, and then years after we record of podcast on it and then the thing finally I see, and then fifteen or twenty years after that it becomes hip again. Yes, that's the progression so point there were at though now Chuck, it's not so cotton dry man is on these countries. we would like to have you think, no big. He came out with this death of Otto Tune, train My two thousand nine are still around very much,
and now it's getting to the point where it lay gum, diverge and camera the other article. I read their both on this podcast page if there are to be believed their credible sources and they certainly seem like it from these articles. Yeah there's a there's. This growing question of is out of tune here to stay. People are starting to compare it to the initial reaction that people had to the electric guitar sure it was different from the original guitar and people took a lotta getting used to like when Bob Dylan, when electric lotta people in like that Newport, but and look at what happened now with the electric guitar alot of people tried different stuff with it and it became a standard. Some people are wondering if Otto Tunas going to fulfil the same destiny. I think most people hoping that it does not yet well I mean sweetening vocals is not the new like reverb is a tried and true thing for years embraced. Does Sweden vote
cause. I thought those always used to like make it weird. Now it it's! It's sort of like echoing, like you're sitting in a big, empty church hall or something, but it makes a bit sweetens. It doesn't like correct anything, but when I say sweetens, it just makes it sound a little better, get reverb the great tool right, the point, as is art official yeah, it's not natural yeah that its they try to replicate like singing in a big empty, echoing hallway here, with an effect in worked in another argument in favour of auditing that are seen as simply taking a human voice in recording it automatically makes it official like if they're not there in the room with you singing to you at that moment. Anything else is artificial. True, so what's the problem so just to let people now I put out to tax during the episode to musician friends, Jack now I texted Lucy Wainwright our body. Yet she lay
Jerry from our tv, Sir she's not answered o king, which means disease auditing getting or Buddy Joey Sierra from other Henry Clay, people formerly of Henry Clay people now with figures, and he said I think there were a few nice is in OZ on one of our old records where we did some pitch correcting, but that's it, I think maybe so definitely he's. He begged me mad that I said the thank you for being forthright showing good guy, sure you got anything else about it. Yeah, just a really quick gum. This is from a great website, ten artist that are essentially computer programs. They does have the most auto tune, people they have tea pain, Kasza, Chris Brown, Marine, five like I'd peace, deaf Buck, Pierce Hilton, who forgot actually at Edison the cast of Glee, Katy Perry and number one was
Our city, who I don't even know what that is. There is a huge outcry, apparently among glee, fans for glee to stop using so much auto tune. I think the deal is a relic of these are actors z, I gotta and theirs. There's a big scandal with the UK got talent or something weird like that. You are aware they were using a lotta out of tune for the auditions like come home, go anyway, that's very surprising list. So this has been good. the old man. I don't feel like we ve been grumpy. We have, unlike damned it outright, no legal case she's my She condemns it outright Emily. I have an agreement about Nikko case that we could both marry her does she was ever available to us, she's right behind you, oh my god,
so we have a very well known finish up here at the altar. I don't jump the gun, K thinking you don't have anything else about oddity now, just teasing. We have a special listener. Mail with guests. Woke me finish. First, look. Ok, Wilson check this out, anything it's the end and if you want to know more about auditing, you can type those words into the search bar has to efforts that camp and that this article, I have to say by the way, was the most. if article about auto tune on the internet. How about that is a good one, so you can go look that up and six, I said definitive it's time for listener mail and its one like to accept this right. Today we got a joint listener, mail to ourselves into Holly and Tracy from stuff. You mustn't history class so we're gonna bring them in their we're. Gonna read the email, we're gonna talk about its implications, start now,
without further ado. We actually have Holly and Tracy of stuff. You miss in history class, with that I and Tracy we have actually not with us she's with us in spirit and voice from Boston. I now its prey its pre interesting when it comes into your headphones, but the other person somewhere else can also- and this is how he goes to the Show- no right ye as we are so, have like an online. You know we have a google hang out where we both are so I could see each other as well will that's need. We should have done that Tracy in here with us. a video image, Bulgaria or like a hologram over there, be faithful to its true, I think Firstly, do we can have a picture of me like our old boss? Oh well, I do have a picture of you. Might have the wallets gave out, I think, for We should do is just read out, read the email here and then we will discuss like adults about that. Why
so, like I said already set it up, that we both got an email from a listener, and she says the following in this- is from my manned alliance. hey, guys and Gaza. She didn't say that, of course, I just below- read it brigade, M, Josh, Checkers, Holly and Tracy and of course, a hello to Jerry and no yeah, I'm a social, or from Portland Oregon, with a passion for human equity and respect one of the original members of the S, wife, S, K, army anymore, recent listener. To MR history, I benched for about five months before I got all caught up. So how about that I am concerned about something I've heard a few times on the history by gas and was wondering if you guys would be willing to get together. We are and look into something different
my curiosity when Josh and Chuck received corrections. They thank people for being nice and frequently asked people not to be jerks when correcting them. When Holly and Tracy talk about corrections they receive, they ask people to be nice and have referred to corrections. on several occasions as hate mail. My concerns it listeners may be more disrespectful. The Halloween tree trace because they are women and even if listeners are and Chuck they may rain it in when making correction because they are men could be completely off base. But if I'm right, if you like, the discrepancy should be addressed on the podcast raise awareness about how people treat men and women differently even to address people's tendency to feel protected by the anonymity of the internet and say things online. They when citizens face and so Manta. We did talk about
the email and now we're gonna talk about it like regular, human folks and Tracy really has the wealth of information because of her job and what you know she's been responsible for in the past. Yes answer yeah. I was part of the management team of the website for several years before I started actually being on a pod cast and virtue a chunk of that time. Most of the pod casters reported to me, Even though our wasn't managing the progress programme, I was sort of tabs on Itunes reviews for everybody, and there was a definite definite trend in that. cast that had women on MA am got disparate neatly. More vicious com about what their voices sounded like verses, cast with men on them which got less of that solution news to me massage any on the internet? I had not those are known about this. Have you bloom
spot. I know I can imagine and I know Tracy you like pointed some these out before for Us- it's it's like what the hate mail every once in a while, but it's kind of easy to dismiss because- even if it is directed at us. It's not necessarily directed at our gender, whatever its personal or even if it is personally it's it's dumb. It's it's just dumb stuffy! It's easy did not personally, even when it's meant to be personal sure, but that's me speaking is go white male age, eighteen, forty nine, you know so I can imagine that leg when someone attacks you just just based on your agenda or even worse, if they're coming after and they don't even realise that their being driven by the sum this disdain for your gender thou, hast him a lot harder to justice to dismiss. yeah
How do you think I would say for me, I mean not, I am lucky and that I really give very few dams about what most people things like unless you're sitting in my lap or paying my paycheck click, the great, if you like me, but if you dont, that's cool, do like everybody to your thing, but eventually like the way I'm flying builds up in it or not. It's not so much that I like heartbroken are traumatized, but it just where she down after a while, you like. Why am I doing this as it doesn't get more, this crap media law? We definitely have what we have been called slurs based on our journey before over, you have been called the sea word over the pirate serious right, yeah, unbelievable. Yet Well, I told you that what we were discussing, the email and our email conversation. I told you about the person he wrote to us and said they didn't understand how I could be in the same room with Holly without strangling her, like that's the kind of stuff that people will write us be really awful, but we do get a whole
out of them, but I dont think people are consciously being massage monistic but they're talking to us and about us in a very gendered way. So people tell us that we found shrill or that we sound bossy. and those aren't words that people would use to describe men. Most of the time will note his men are also bossy rags. all of the articles that had come out lately about especially go fry and other things that people criticise about women's voices that they dont generally criticise about men's voices of every single time. I read it and I am like I could have written that about my job and my experience being a woman talking on the internet, which one on which one hit home, though the most like one, that's just a direct personal attack or the ones there or the person is being unconsciously massaging a stick which to me would seem more entrenched.
Get to me the second one is worse and its especially where it, because a lot of the implicitly gendered criticism that we get is also from women phone. I was gonna Horace part yeah, that's the hardest part for me to deal with yeah when their real spaces take, for example, like the person who wants me to be strangled at the end of the day. I'm like he's working zones doubtfully. I have really have very little to do with, as I may have been the trigger that you know cause this little outrage bomb, but really it has very little to do with me that I think almost a hundred percent of the time. That is the case that these are people who have their own gripes and life in her. Probably angry unhappy people, yes, but then, as Tracy said, when you get those ones that are like they dare not even conscious of
its playing out gear. You realize how much it is a bigger sort of systemic social problem here, because most of those people are not evil. They don't intend to be massaging mistake there not conscious that their separating the two genders and judging them differently in different criteria, so yeah. Those as Tracy said a little more disturbing as you realize that it's kind of like the silent creep under lays everything. Absolutely we do lot of emails that our great from people who are great and the majority of the email that we get is great, so we'd, like I don't wanna, make it sound like every person who writes to us is awful and we talk directions on the episode a lot of times for people who ride in and everything is fine and everything is very respectful, say to me a correction is you said this person died in nineteen eighteen, but really it was one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven. That's a correction, that's fine, but then we'll also get one
we're like? I can't believe you didn't even bother to let this be completely butchered it Don't know why you don't even put more thought into what you're doing, because it's really important that you represent yourselves well and that's what I'm like bats hate mail where we can we get those we get a lot of those, but I never feel, like those are alike, have anything to do with my yeah. I know that in those cases absolutely I may we get the same exact emails or it's like you, you guys are total idiots like how? How could you drop the ball? badly and it's like. We basically said exactly what you're saying we just said: it slightly differ We definitely doesn't more in this kind of reaction. You know death, I like my eyes. Why do you think there is a gender bias engendered a disk. Why is it worse for you guys being women? Do you think not just
in common with history of the world like house. How long do you read me liked and even even beyond, comes a wise, the internet so geared toward the heating women? I mean what's what's the deal with that you guys is. There is a general understanding, the idea behind it lonely. remain, as my guess, awhile. I think it's it's super complex right, there's! No one simple answer like some of it is that we have reached an age where the disparity in arms of gender equality has shrunk, the same time that a lot of people have this outlet readily available to them. So there's progress being
but there are also the people who are still kicking and screaming as they get dragged into a future they're, not comfortable with area, but then there's also just a thing that again, I don't think people are even conscious of it where it is new for many people, and even people that are younger and have may be grown up in a more kind of old school. Traditional environment, be it householder community, where they're, not even conscious of why they're more upset at women there's just something about women, you know, sharing knowledge or being assertive were being confident that just rankles them and they don't even register that it's because it's a woman, they just another summit about that person. I hate and something there just not used to, and they haven't kind of made the the mental a customization too. Oh sometimes people that aren't nudes have stuff to say as well right those same experiences extrapolate able under race as well again,
oh yeah. Well I mean, I know it is, but a media is almost like a step by step. Do you think I think ironing similar models was speaking as the as as a white person in a room of white people, the phone right now, though, the worst days I have ever had managing our Facebook page our days when we talk about something that has to do with systemic racism and will we'll get a flood of similarly implicitly racist comments from people who really no that the view that they just put out there is racist, like that's sort of the same thing like a lot of people do things that are massaging us not really consciously being massage earnest. That's it comes out and are not consciously aware of it, and it's that we see the same thing on our facebook posts in subjects that are
related to race, really pretty often toward the end of the day, when you guys get a bunch of these so you're, just a particularly bad day. You What do you do? I mean is: do battle this teaches brush off me like these guys are idiots in weather, like it or not? They are going to be dragged into the future, but against their will, owe you know what do you do? A combination of both or do you look at your status as a perennial top twenty podcast and say they clearly? Who cares what they say, because we're really good at what we do? because we're very successful. I do a combination of things I have kind of a library of links about vocal fry and whenever anyone rights directly to us to complain about vocal fry, I kind of send them hey. Why don't you listen to this this american life segment
about local variety of the Indians IRA Glass has vocal fry the entire segment, but nobody complained that him about it. Sob like I specifically I will address that. I will specifically addressed things that people say and our Facebook page in public, because I feel like our Oil as a podcast about history does not, include allowing people free rein to be racist and public, and and have that not be challenged. but when it comes to the like, but you may Holly, and I got that was that was so bad pretty recently. That was the person who too was basically advocating me, murdering Polly I was actually travelling. I went down to the hotel bar and how to drink there. You go at a book and tried to chill yeah dry fill out about it further I had everything well, thank you both for addressing this
I'm sorry. We didn't solve this problem in this business veil, saying thank you for having its energy or, if anyone out there and stuff you should know land is not checked out stuff. You miss in history class. You definitely should because it is soup. awesome in as are both You and I dont want to strangle you, but I want to hug your next in this I mean I'm Peter Rabbit. Now she don't move no note, but thanks for coming in and we should do this more often. but we should be The whole show where we just get together new round table stuff. We can have you happy POW Party time that would be spent all it. Well life? U S, to say about all this time. We're sure you will we want to hear from you. You can tweet the as wide as cape podcast begin tweets stuff. You missed in history class at at missed in history. You can join us on that.
book dot. Com, stuff, you should know you can join stuffy. You, history, closet, missed in history complex, missed in history, make it easy thought about you mail: how did they get integrity? History, Pakistan, house of work stuck in you, can hit us up stuff pod cast a house oversight common. It is always join our home on the web stuff. You should know dot com and mister History, dot com, You should know is the production of I radios how stuff works from what had Radio, I hurt radio apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shut.
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Transcript generated on 2021-01-02.