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from my heart, radio and tender for tv. This monster DC sniper the first two areas loads premier on January second, subscribe today, on the eye: hard radio, apple podcast or wherever you get your protest. Hello, there. It's me Josh and for this week's S wise case legs of chosen are classic episode on. Why detectors The pretty nifty little episode about a pretty dodgy piece of forensic science with a wow of aback story. It is classic. Studies should now hope you enjoy

welcome to stop you should now production of Iheart radios have stuff. Where are your modem to the bar gas than Josh Clerk with means? Always is Charles, the Beach Bryant why're you? You could tell me this way you can find out you're sure its abandonment of stuff. You should know refinish open and it's you lie Like Joe Joe, we parents or whatever they congressmen, yeah Saturday, I almost funny scared that he had gotten a whole group of people that aspect of it it's what never deal you tell it. Well yeah and he supposed they had a whole group of senators that we're gonna all stand up and yell you lie in the Hague was the only one that did it. The tissues out of the room when they're like now I cant do earth is lousy that that's funny

So we were talking about lie detectors, but let me take you back to little place in time and space called the jazz age early. Nineteen twenties, no, that's the beat next. That did ok, I'm sure a jasper, since not their fingers at one point sure, but not like that, is really play, Coltrane style just like that anyway, this is anyway. This is nineteen. Twenty one check in Berkeley, California, you silly Berkeley, and there is a place there called the college Hall, which was a women's dorm and in that year there were a fast. A string of there was a string of bomb thats cash rings, pretty much. Anything value went missing for a little while there

and there is a man working at the Berkeley Police Department is in the girl, storm yeah. Ok, the culture TA get either as a man working in the in the Berkeley police departments. Name is John Larsson in John Larsson was the first cop ever to have a phd, and he had gotten interested in this device called a cardio new mo psycho Graph, which had been invented just a few years for by another guy named William Marston, and will you Marston was a lawyer and a Harvard shrink, and he also, as an aside, I created wonder woman with her lasso of truth, really he's the guy who invented the woods now called the polygraph. But what about the wonder, woman? He created wonder woman. He had a character. Yes, he asked kind of a renaissance meant, but that's why you Marston John Larsen works at the end. The Berkeley please- parliament and has become interested in this thing. They cardio new MO psycho graph,

any realises. Okay. This is a perfect chance to apply it, so he rounds of Venus himself by citizen some normal police work and find out who the suspects are in this. In this hall right, any random, a brazen known station any starts hooking people up to the sum this machine, in- and he gets to this one woman- her name- is Helen Graham and guilty. Yes, pretty much. What he does he goes, and this machine is saying that you're that you took this, that you eat took the money in a did you and he said that he noted on the machine. A sharp drop him pressure from by sudden rise, and then, after that woman flew into a rage. She tried to attack the machine filet. She went crazy, so they they d, basically stringer along for a few days in and finally, she confesses and it's the first time that a polygraph was ever Eustace too to solve

crime ever at those further heyday, because before them, people knew what it was. They could to say this machine says that your guilty and there, if you like God has it now is exactly right now very early on some of the early proponents, specifically a guy named a Leonard killer, recognise the placebo, value before anyone knew there was a placebo affected, with the affect value of a polygraph near they just the idea. If you believed in this machine and then it could root out lies. Then it could force you to confess to being hooked up to you weren't going to pass it. They should call it the guilt box. They called it. The magic lie. Detector is one of the one on the grounds that they call it. Yeah Leonard Killer call it that he worked with John Larsson at Berkeley Police Department and eventually over I'm John Larsson saw the what he considered.

The truth behind the lie, detector and the fact that it kept being called by detector, it's driving me crazy. Asher. Any eventually distanced himself from it later on in his rear, but Leonard Killer ran around marketing it to any one in every one saying just having this right, is going to not only help you hire more more truthful forthright people, but it's gonna keep them in line, whether working for you, because they know you ve got access to this thing in the constraints on to it at any time. So that's where the polygraph came from there's a little pre history to just to give them their due in eighteen. Ninety five us his odd lumber, also he's in it in criminologist. He measured changes in blood pressure, for at least cases occur in nineteen o four device. Victoria, been nosey, measured, breathing

and ass. They were early nineteen hundred late, eighteen, hundreds they were kind of on the scene of of measuring these things in Doktor, James Mackenzie, Tina. Six first mentioned the word polygraph yeah, with his instrument that he didn't used to root out the truth but for he did you when giving medical examinations and then right before the polygraph was the union Graph Eurogroup, which was part of? still used today in the polygraph measured respiration, pretty cool yeah, but then you add to it a couple of other things and you get the polygraph we could stop here. This is interesting enough right now, so there's no really, there's! No, no one walking the planet. Who anything do with polygraph that call them lie detectors

and anyone even the most ardent defender of polygraph technology would back you. If you you it how delighted tat they would be like this. It's not alighted sector because you can't a docile. The whole basis of polygraph is that it is a set of medical instrument They used to measure changes in things like your heart rate, your respiration, an sweating us basically outfield. Well, a lot of people do fail and we'll get to that by because your sweat. They were, they were even hook me up expected. He looks here so sweaty right now, so wait when you're hooked up to this machine, the whole

wine is a measures. These physiological changes in the idea that there you're going to undergo a physiological change is based on the concept that a person hook. This machine who is guilty will experience fear that they're going to be detected right. So this machine is designed to detect that fear that right, which is really round about, but for a century almost to know these things were used and abused and it took a while for people a kind of, John, that there is a lot to criticise here with polygraph year for sure hey everybody. I wanna talk to you about your website that doesn't look good and this hard to program because square space does it better yeah they do square

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today for a free trial when you're ready to launch everyone, use the offer code stuff to save ten percent on your first purchase of a website or domain Skurse base discotheque in it It's always get in First of all, we need to point out that analogue Polly Grass or what you have slung in and movies and tv when they have the jittery looks like a seismic on the paper scrolling by and your hooked up to all these different things on your chest in your forehead in your fingertips. Yet these days they do that digitally, but it's basically still the same technique They just don't use the little scrolling needle they have a name for that

all in infield pen had his attack, but the three things that they Josh. They measure respiratory rate, as he said they take Numa grass, which are rubber tubes, filled their time, we're on your chest in your abdomen and that is going measure whether or not Europe United, breathing heavy. Essentially, when you got nervous, it monitors pattern in any changes to end it does it pretty cleverly right, yeah would bellows it is their film. Air. So when you were, Bree then will deeply or have a change it's going to displace that into the bellows and that wool originally that was attached. The bellows were literally attached to the mechanical arm. Right that showed the change these days is that it's a transducer that converts it dead, digitally electronically right a committed to and electrical pattern right, yet prodded says or high the same thing.

Yeah. No, I think it looks a lot like it. If you look there's a picture of a modern one in it. The granting think he'll was digital, like variety on it's, not a paper read out any longer right, which is kind of interesting, like this technology hasn't hasn't changed on a very fundamental basis for like one hundred years, almost yeah I mean that the early one from Mackenzie, one thousand nine hundred and six. They say that a lot of the same components are still very similar today, also are going to have so you gonna have to tubes one around your chest. One around your admin. There said some keeping an eye on you breathing ness you're, going to have a blood pressure cuff, which which keep an eye on your heart rate and your blood pressure, and it does it through sound right yet realises, so when you, when the blood comes in and out of your veins, create sound and sound, can also be used to displace air of causing a bellows to contract.

Which again move the arm on the scroll and now is created, are turned into an electrical pattern near. But it's the same thing, but it sound, which is think, is very neat. Well and which also need is the sweat when I figured they would have sort of like a moisture amateur just to detect moisture, but it's called galvanic skin resistance or GS are or electoral dermal active. That's right and hook up these finger plates to galvanise amateurs and they are basically measuring the skins ability to conduct electricity, and if your skin is moist, it's gonna be able to contact electricity easier. Yes and that's what they're measuring their it's like the ones that the little lamb hurry monitors, the they click to your fingertips in the hospital. But these things measure Electra instead, yes, which, if you are dry, you're, going to conduct less electricity. If your wet you're gonna conduct more so

Since you have so many ports on the under your fingers and you sweat when you're nervous, they have done so will you put all this together and a paints a picture ACL you among other people, have decried as just what are you doing here? Basically with ACL, you says why why you have is a picture of a person who is undergoing stress. Maybe feeling embarrassment is maybe just dared to be there may be, doesn't like having things wrapped around his or her chest. Be, doesn't really like the the person asking the questions with the results of these. These some changes in pattern. The data is totally subjective train which makes polygraph totally subjective, which takes it in large part to the realm of science near router

It is what they call it and although proponents will say that a well trained forensic psycho physiologists, which is the examiner, can get through all that to still get a good one yeah like here. They know all this stuff and if you're good than you can factor that in and still get a good result. So let's talk about what the forensic psycho physiologist does Theirs apparently I've seen anywhere between five thousand in ten thousand of them in the? U S at any given time yet, and some of them belong to professional organizations, I think probably they behave

or third, depending on where you are in the end. That estimate rent belong to any number of professional organisations. Some have no accreditation whatsoever but are still able to open up shops depending on the state there in some states have zero laws about being a forensic psycho physiologist a k, a polygraph examiner enshrined, but there is also some there are programmes out there the who wrote this article Kevin bonds are, I think so. He he arm interviewed a guy who, founded the accident academy, were exit on as a manufacturer, polygraph right and they founded this academy as well, where you go through a certain amount of training to become a forensic psycho physiologist, and he actually interviewed that guy yeah his aims,

Billy Leslie Lee. I only says there. If you come to their economy, you have to have baccalaureate degree bachelors right, or you have to have at least five years. Investigative experience have to have degree. You have to take a ten associate degree and after you complete the ten weak course, you have to carry out twenty five polygraph examinations and submit twenty to be reviewed. So these are like real life ones. I guess you're working with your local police department or whatever. Maybe your already a cop and you have to submit it to the Accident Academy Board for Review. And then once there are reviewed in everybody's all thumbs up, you are a licensed, I guess, but you're not licence cause, there's no licensing, body,

licensed. I guess but you're not licence cause, there's no licensing body. Now you are you graduate. I guess this is what they call right. So that's as accredited as it gets. I guess and like you said, say that their if you're, good, F, p r, you're gonna be able these structured everything correctly so that you can see pass somebody who's who sweats alot, like you, too, who gets stressed out easily like me and design your questions appropriately and you're gonna be able to do to figure out whether this person is deceptive or not near. So how would you do that chuck? Well, we talk about the test itself. I guess You're gonna, you're gonna go in and you're gonna get a before you get strapped up. Anything right could take about an hour This is just you and those who, owing to people in the room you not surrounded by folks like in the movies and stuff, although the movie, sometimes it's just too people- yes, but I did.

Tested you're, just gonna get an interview, basically about basically about being investigated gonna be profiling, you and chicken you out and you see, and what kind of questions you respond to and what might make you nervous suggested I'll, be better informed about how to properly question you once you're, all strapped right and the pretext when you just kinda hanging out with them casually examiners also kind of getting info out of you that you may not be aware of like if You are, if you talk usually about your favorite beer. At one point, I like it a lot and then later on and also comes up that you have to drive a lot. They might come up with a they might use. Effort. Control question which could be something like have you ever driven under the influence of alcohol and control. Question is something where we have to admit guilt- and you may not want to. But it's such a broad question that just about anybody is guilty of it.

Have you ever lied to somebody have you ever stolen anything that kind of thing to where, if you say No, they now have a baseline for what it looks like when you lie They can make a reasonable assumption that you have just lied and any of the data in the captured on polygraph their goal used to analyze everything else off of bears pretty much it that's the test, and afterward you had the posters where they look at all the data and. Chart out whether or not they think you're deceptive and aware, like on this question, you are deceptive on this question. You may have deceptive it's kind of hard to tell on this one. You definitely were deceptive, so so in its own. It's all in relation to that control question that baseline night. So if you, if you're deception, if you, if I'm questions where I mean they're, they're gonna, have to talk to the police as well to and say what do you want

no out of this person, so they'll design questions around that as well. So they may have a question like Are you wearing a blue shirt and may be question? One is irrelevant right. Question too, is Have you ever lied to your boss? That's the control quit and they question three is something like you know: did you steal the cookie from the cookie jar like that's the way that the cops want them to ask right, they'll, compare the result of two three against cue to and if they're the same or you can really tell debts, and in that that's enough, inconclusive tests right. So that's it! I mean, like you said, that's that's polygraph!

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thirty day. Audible trial today in your first audio book, is on us to get started. Just visit, audible, dot com, Slash S, why s k or text S why S k too far, hundred five hundred freezing it is its jeeringly easy, considering that its use in legal cases alarming. Yes, that's true people try to to battle the why detector in various ways or a little tricks that the internet says works like taking a sedative or putting any person on your fingers, which seems like they make you wash your hands, putting attack in your shoe. Timing, get asked a question every single time. You stop on the tack and the ideas that you're just gonna screw the test. So they all look the same to your body.

As the same reaction, no matter what's goin on like they. I guess, if you press on the attack your physiology, The response could overwhelm any response to the question right exactly like I said there, these these things are used in legal cases, but with caveats right, if you undergo a polygraph, whether you fail or pass. It doesn't really matter legally speaking right because of unless your New Mexico, here, the only state that allows it just opening or if you take a polygraph like it, it's the bowling Courtney every other state, usually the both sides have to agree on it being admitted or on. The judge has to say arrogant, admit this one. Yet federally the judge decide whether or not their gonna admitted Ryan. I guess state judges, kind of follow that federal ruling of polygraph being JANET's, it sort of a crime

Judith a federal judges, gonna allowed or not. There's no precedent really tore. They say we have to where we don't have to write. So what are the problems with this? That the problems with a polygraph or that its objective right, that's a big one, but also because their because a subjective you can get what are called false positives and false negatives and you know what that, because then the test itself is just not valid right, but I mean that a lot of people use that is evidence that polygraph polygraph he shouldn't be done it. I didn't it's not valid near a false positive in polygraph thing is when you find somebody who is deemed deceptive but was telling the truth. False negative is when Somebody who wasn't telling the truth is deemed truthful right. Gary Ridgeway, the Green River

they had him for a little while and give him a polygraph and he passed and they let him go and he went and killed a bunch more women. All right! That's right! I didn't know that. Actually, There is also the you know that our government has the largest consumer of these exams, and if you work for but all government you ve, probably had won T get the job you can't do that in the private sector, thanks to thee, polygraph Protection ACT employ Polygraph Protection ACT and a boy eighties. They said you can't force your employees to do this. You, requested, but if they don't want to do it, you can't fire because of it. You just can't do it right, not in private land right unless you have a contract with the government and then that's not valid, but other the federal government, the largest opponent to him and court, but also the largest consumer, imaginative and there's been a lot of cases that shaped its admissibility or not. But the Paul

breath. It seems like a kind of on its way out. I wrote an article about MRI being used as lie, detectors arose and that's during the can come into fashion, the more we start to undo like how lies are born in the brain S being able to see it in saying this, the pattern that will happen if this person is lying and then that pattern happens, they say what we know you're lying. We just saw that lie form in your brain. That makes yes, but at the same time, people who understand him our eyes say: there's weight, really to be doing that and even if we can do it with a hundred per cent, You see there are a lot of moral and ethical questions to it as well, We need to address first always and then penile pleasant, mammography. What's that so member, the the Numa graphs they go around

just an element in the management of those that goes round the penis and it does the same thing at the text. Changes in girth traction girth. It's a perfect way to put a while and its use to detect arousal. They use it for sex offenders, it's under at least as much attack as regular polygraph, but there arose blog posts called using science to root out laden homosexuality among homophobia. A study at you D used penile plasma, plethysmograph IE, to find if anyone who they had deemed homophobic became aroused when exposed to homosexual pornography while yeah it's it's one of the better posts of a written she's right, that's her future. I guess penal plethysmograph for everyone

he only one with a penis at least an chuck. Lastly, I want to encourage everybody. If this is picture interests about, why detectors and to go watch the shoe court shoe store job interview, clip from Mr Show on Youtube area. You remember that as very good therefrom, Paula Tomkins and it has a year- a breakthrough. That was he alone. There could open. Yup. That's it for why detectors ya wanna, take a test that there's someone in the land area that administers these and would be willing to give me a lighted tucked her test. I would love to do that. Ok in all watch, yes song. Second, Vienna approve the questions are not approve them, but I do want to be like rooted out. Is some miscreant.

It's a little way just keep it above a heart. If you, I know more, about lie, detectors and play with some lie to take your flash animation, you can do that by typing in why detector on this in the search bar and has therefore start com and dumb means it's time for this that's right, Josh's from Brad and Brad. If you remember, we had a list of suggestions from a listener not to YO. That thought our podcast could be a lot better. If we change the few things, bread has some suggestions of his own of how we can make a pike s better. We should both have nicknames with up the actual name like welcome this stuff. He should know with J C in the Dingo sit back getting a big helping of knowledge from Chicago in the duck. I? Second, the suggestion to remove the personal anecdotes should be moved to a separate podcast called the Josh and shook memoir

we want our podcast can, recount your lies from birth, to present, focusing on depressing stories of her marginally factual. Then development is chuck. Please your raise your voice, one active Josh, lower yours, one active what okay so now. This is how I talk to her. The opening in the park should be description of what each of you ate that day and the number of trips to the bathroom. This allows the listener to keep track at home hedgehogs, brain surgeons, arcades in Bolivia and politics, are underrated under sorry. Represented on your part, gas. At least twenty percent should be about these subjects, Do not exclude lesser male, instead create a quieter audio track. Reading listener, mail and overlay it on the rest of the podcast. That way nurse can hear both the mail and the main continent. The same time, a very good idea, why not said party, you literally young people. We did. Why not set the podcast to a backdrop of tribal

arms and jungle. Animal noises would give it an exotic, feel that's over the listener, male track over the whole thing, so that be three tracks the yet anyway, we to suspense for the listener to wonder if you'll be eaten by jaguars and it was clear the Pike s mummies. Neither view had ever been mummified, please refrain from explaining topics that you don't have personal experience with and then the final suggestion, just retail episodes of this american life that meant that last on went down like beer February was so this bread thanks branches are all great ideas: technology, three tracks: on one January at once, the listener male quietly the pie, guest in tribal drumming in jungle, noises guest? Let's see if you have access to a polygraph and want to hook chuck up to it, let us know you can let us not facebook at Facebook, dot, com, dot com, you should know you can

we too are set as Y S, K, podcast, and you can send us a regular old email at stuff podcast at Housetop doctor you should know, is the production of Iheart radios? How stuff works from what had cast my heart rate? I heard radio apple podcast Is it that I heard radio apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shape? The future of business will be powered by next generation networks. A I machine learning cloud, an edge computing all require rely, T Mobile has invested nearly thirty billion dollars to make sure you get the most from your investments with a mobile net. From your investments with a mobile network that is more reliable than ever before tee mobile six hundred megahertz signal?

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