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welcome to stop. You should know a production of Iheart Radio pay your work under the podcast, I'm Josh and nurse choking Dave is here with us today we're all this quietly holding hands. Now we have to stop and come into the real world and start talking to you find people for this episode. Stuffy should know my my lip got caught him right to what I said. You came out a little here. Let's funny my daughter, family lost her first tooth and its, no it's in the way you talk. She's got a little funny little Lisbon so easily. tongue in on it, none like another. Pretty soon. You know I gotta get this front when redone right I already did Yang and wait till right before we have live, shows sucking pull that front it again,

it'll be especially tree for everybody, especially me you're used to it. I really was the worst was wish when you have a little case that you put it in and that they had the end, so the smell could walk down an idea I gave up after the first, one on wearing that thing up. Just like your tears nods it was very liberating it was, as is despite cast up. I think this is good to be a good one because took out the one to talk about this for a really long time. This is one of those things that you like here about annual equate. What that can't be right, and then you reach a little more about it in a little more and it just keeps getting worse and worse, but yet it some its one of the like a landmark study in the field of psychology that we're talking about today? Yeah the three Christ of hips align tee, and

I study this. I remember this from studying it in psychology class in college. got kind of into it at the time and you started wearing like three crises, sure I followed, the mature was grain I dont first and I thought I read the book, but I dont think The book I think we discovered the book in college and in psychology class, like I don't think they make. read the whole book we basically just kind of whenever it, but I've been fascinated for years and you know eventually, when Hollywood made a movie about it. Four years ago I was excited Nan, even paid to rent. That thing that- got a pretty good. I watched the verse half hour and realized man. They just sort of dignified. This thing in it's not good other about giving public. Isn't it and he's always great hey that I can still see

better than the hamburger yet movie you so everyone knows is called the three crisis hit salami from John Ab Net, storing your gear is the name changed doctor and then the three rice, the movie, your portrayed by Peter Dink, ledge one of my favorite actors, Walton Goggins yeah, he's, great me and I went back, I told you- I was watching the shield again- that guy was amazing in there. I was in that yeah yeah played. One of the main characters just the best and then it s name, Bradley Whitford. His also great everyone is good just so, unless movies that date just over sanitized and should remain a documentary instead, but they do and that's ok and we don't have to talk about their movie ever again. Now then no have instead, I think we should start by giving a little background and the guy who's idea the three crises of. If so any experiment was, and it was a

searchers psychologist a social psychologist. Your fair maiden named Milton Roque, each in milk, each head some ideas about what it was too to me. Got an identity. What made up of persons sense of who they were there any basically broken it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds of beliefs, it will come to talk about here there a little more. But there's this anecdote as free We passed around that kind of like the early groundwork for this idea that that some cons, belief in who they are could conceivably be challenged. And it came one day when he was sitting round the dinner table with his wife and his two young daughters, and accidently in like a moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner. Called one

other by their opposite names and the girls who thought that was like the funny thing I ever heard at first. Yes, was that set my gear? even secondly, finger up, like our, I knew you, but you can't see a thing. Because we just listen to each other yeah it first and there was a little fun game and then I think the five year old, even said you know, there's just a game right. Dad in dad said no. It's real and I hear him saying it in that voice in the pretty soon they were begging for him to stop, and I can verify that this is a thing. I've been thinking. Parents sometimes you'll call your kid by another name as a joke like I know a done it. My called my daughter, my dogs, name. If she's, I shall come into the room and like Barker, something as a joke say: oh unique, oh and she'll take em Nikko and then

A few minutes later on my case community go and then it's fun for about five minutes and then she's like no I am not so there is very much a thing. A child's identity, especially from their parents, where they can get there. dignity and seek their identity when they The challenge that it is very quickly kind of yeah, he learned a couple of things that one you can very quickly challenge somebody or you can barely very quickly put someone to a state Trauma anxiety or panic, even death by just by sea, We challenging their identity by calling on the wrong name, purposefully, Jerry, he also right yeah. I know Jerry each other Jerry. I think it would cancel each other out do a lot more time and I will crumble. Ok, Jerry for it, but

also learned, like ok, there's consequences of this. You kid to somebody with a with a well formed: well, developed sense of identity and in a new, I guess, a normal sense of identity and push push them to the edge mess around with a sense of identity. There's there's harmful consequences to that, so he certain kind of explore. This and, like I was saying like he had broken everybody's belief system, into a handful of different types of beliefs, belief that you are who you are yet is what we call her identity. He ascribed to primitive beliefs, which you're, just like basic truths, the same neighborhood as No I'm wearing headphone on one ear, and I have the other one behind my head right now I have brown hair. My name is Josh your shock, like just fake, the truth of the universe, that

anyone you talk to is going to generally agree with right. That's where the personality comes from yeah and that that is the very bedrock foundation of how we think about ourselves, and he already solved met messing with that can be bad, so huge, dyslexic, hey. Why not step further right. So what I was saying a minute ago with like how we saw that there's consequences to messing with sane person. I just made airports if you can health. From my information messing with a singing persons, I Kennedy? You can only do that, but this is the century in Amerika and there's a whole group people that you can do basically, whatever you want to with as far as mental stuff goes, and that were people who are suffering our mental conditions, who were locked up in state institutions at the end and

RO kids came up with this idea, like ok, wait a minute what a five? What if I got my hands on so mentally unstable peoples and possibly diagnosed people, and in may with their sense of identity, took their delusion and challenge. Did that could, ok because hate their lives or basically useless anyway, I'm paraphrasing Roque each year and if if something does come of it, there's a good chance that it could be positive instead. So let me here let me add on basically yet quote here from the book and not big thanks today, ruse for putting this winter- and this was a huge it's a tough under wrangle bit. He did a great job here. From the book, because it feasible to study such phenomena with normal people. He didn't even end quote it seems reasonable to focus on delusional systems a belief in the hope that in some acting them to strain. There would be little to lose, and hopefully great deal to gain

I read that sentence and unlike stop air, dude right yeah. It's like the perfect motto for the misguided, tensions of this study, yeah yeah, he is light indicted himself with that one quote: exactly this right out of the gate. I read the Sum Commentary magazine article from nineteen sixty four by our. I can't remember who it was. I don't have pulled up, but he's a famous poet at the time when he was basically saying like no, surely Roque teach the guy who's writing the book. Will I understood and that road teach the character. This doktor looked out of his mind and he likes he's like slowly realizing await this guy, even though through the book has no idea that the doctor character, who is himself has, Has any idea just how unethical this is nuts. That's it. That's a great ample evidence demonstrates it right off the bat yeah there's theirs. And if you listen to the snapped judgement on this, did you hear that no there was good step Nina

great broadcaster or public radio programme turned back sure I've heard public radio before you I used to listen to a lot more of it. Same here, fresh air. I always still love her straight. If I just it's one of those things where I just woke it up and then like when I'm painting a room in our house, I listen to just fresh air the whole time or something you know to means you have one request and have us on. Do we need to get to twenty years? then do it I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we had twenty years and then maybe here and there you start asking, he's a good guy dairy. So in that's nab judgment. They pointed out that he that It actually read a Harpers article, two women who believe there were the virgin Mary and that idea into his head and another in his book? He also talked about being inspired a little bit by some some stuff that Voltaire wrote about it right. Yet

the man in the seventeenth century that Voltaire wrote about names, Simone Morin, who is terrain, the parliament at the time and he thought TAT he was Christ and so he was locked up in a mad house, and he met in that. In the institution of asylum. another man who thought he was Christ, and- Some are more in saw just how like crazy this guy, seeing them as I quit a minute, maybe I'm crazy and in confront. this other guy who claimed to have the same identity. He gained his sanity to a certain extent, unfortunately he relapsed and ended up being burned at the stake fur heresy yeah, but There was a moment there where he had kind of like been out of his delusion. Yes, a huge deal like if you, if you, if you have schizophrenia, delusional beliefs like if you're mental disorder, to the degree. Were you hold delusions?

say. A delusion is not like you know, a Meda believe, for you know you major belief up like this is what you think is of real? It is real to you and you will defended when its challenge So the idea that somebody who was delusional could be knocked out of their delusion by being confronted with somebody else who had. same delusion that groundbreaking, and I can see why road creatures was like there. We go there there's my address my methodology for this for this this expire. yeah and I'm sure he As you know, He was turned on a little bit about the idea of three crises or, however many crises could find oh huh. Well, let me money do you know what I mean no witnesses look out of this. He was right. Do you know this would make for a pretty mine, blowing experiment plus a great book I don't it's one of the great understated book titles of all time. Yes, now

the three Richard Nixon's of his violante no- and I mean like epsilon- is like this- and with this is this town outside of Ann Arbor? Where were you know, that's where one of the mental asylums were in Numb in Michigan at the time a ban like you know it might as well be while a wall or lilac alone or I'm an unusual name in a town that doesn't really have much of a claim to anything. You know what I mean. All three of those towns are like. the sea insulting. All of us are not a no. No, it's not an insult. It's just in its system, it's not like a hot happen in town and have been like the three corrosive New York that loses something or that the advice of London. It's just rather generally unremarkable place, guys it's away if you live there and you don't know that is generally unremarkable. I'm sorry to be breaking this news to you. I don't mean it in a unkind way. At all. I know

and I think the generally back, then that's where a lot of these institutions were because they needed like lots of land and said those who split that, then ok, maybe take a break well who gave us until everybody really still on what I said. I will take a break in now we'll find out how he found his his patients right after this, Taylor me or one size fits all with a hybrid you don't to choose it's why insurers are going hybrid with IBM with Watson on a hybrid cloud. They can use a I'd to help, predict client needs and get the data they need to quickly design coverage for each one. Business

is that one personalization in speed are going with a smarter, hybrid cloud using the technology and expertise of IBM the world going hybrid with IBM visit, IBM Dotcom, Slash, hybrid cloud everybody there's a new, we come out in its call free guy, storing Ryan, Reynolds and Jody Calmer, and it's only in theatres on August thirteenth, that's right! It's an epic adventure, romantic comedy about a bank teller he discovers is actually a background player in a video game decides to become the hero of his own story, one that he rewrites himself and now he's in a world where there are no limits, and these two terms, to be the guy who saved his world his way before it's too late yeah, it's got a pretty awesome. Castors inimitable Ryan, Reynolds Jody. homer his awesome. Joe carry also are some little well hurry. You guessed it awesome and then there's a curse on boot, car awesome and beyond awesome, Tycho, Whitey T you conceive

you guys storing Ryan Reynolds and Jody Comer only in theatres August, thirteenth experience it on screen and get tickets. Now So we're back. There were twenty five thousand total patients in the system in Michigan State in Michigan, state hospitals and he went through all of these you know we sort of trade call them down to two daily to Christ, figures It found a man who thought you Cinderella. He found a MRS God and then about six people who thought they were Christ and three of them were really into this idea in really consistent with their belief that they were Jesus. Two of em happened to be hips lanni, so you like this,

Fidel this transfer, the third in and we'll get Goin? Yes these guys being inmates of the state at the time were yet epsilon. He had like four thousand people for thousand patients rights in really. Is this wine a lot of attention it so in? If you are already like on the margins of society and moved into a place where you, with four thousand other people on the margins of society, to really good place, to get lost too get any real help So one of the things that that was was part of this sum Experiment design is to make protest painting in these discussions group of these three cry says attractive to these. Three men is passed yeah, so they were moved toward DE twenty three. They were given their own private day, room to eat and sleep here, not sleeping by to hang out in away from everybody else. Did they got some like places?

stretch out and to have some company ailing a lot of attention loud perks, like basically their lives were changed in like incur. global ways. By B, part of this study, and so when they like these were voluntary meetings, these men were voluntary members of the study. That's that's definitely true them. Their voluntary participants, but the perks on offer so amazing there. Thank you. Would could not turn down right. You know, participating in some degree yeah exactly so they were willing participants, so far as yeah. They got these great perks worth running out So he changed the names of the guys to protect. Their families and to protect them to some degree. But we should go over sort of the buyers, The three men shall we who played him in the movies with our help people, I don't think so.

I dont want to disparage great actors names again. Well I mean the acting. They did. A good job of just the material there are great Turkey now yen, is just when you reticence and want to call at this credit, but there wasn't that gun so let me ask you didn't see the movie was it like and I loved They made a movie about forty mercury in the other members acquaintance, but Is it like. in the arm. In the movie I was the new them every day the queen movie. That's what I called it's. Ok, we never mean Rhapsody Bohemia, my city, that's right! Do you remember like every time Freddie Mercury did something brilliant they would Brian may they do a pan in close above him, just looking like in awe and astonished- and there may be pushing it doing that once in a movie, but they did that every like fifteen or twenty minutes. Where is it

that same sentiment. It was so much that it again only once the first act before I realized it was just This is really sanitized and, like a feel, good type of thing, So I guess you said not that we also very similar, rightly Heath Hercules heard of this is that I feel good story. I wonder if it was performance. Are you accidently stumbled upon their army? There was. There were some tough stuff in their economic. It was completely like hey. This is great, but it Rita, like weakenings kind of thing, and I like the way I got it all right, awakenings too, but it sounds like way. You're describing is more along lines. The greatest showman, like that kind of San accusation. I didn't see that ok did you no better than I do, that episode your tearing it apart, Yahoo hadn't even seen more comfortable doing tat at the time they came. So the first guy was in his late fifties, Joseph Hisself, fifty eight he had been in the hospital for about twenty years and

was canadian, born and raised in Tibet. And he was named after his after Josephine his female relative in his family named Joseph, and I think the the take away from his childhood was that it was not good Very beautiful father quick tempered man who abused as mom and his mama died while giving birth to her. Ninth, kid in he had a rough go of it from the beginning. I think, I am actually was Josephine as well. Any went by Joseph so he wanted to be a writer, I think. Did you say he was fifty eight at the time. Yeah, ok and he did not really take too working outside of the house, He and his wife did not have a very good relationship. Necessarily he didn't want did she did? They ended up having

three daughters and he later on, came to believe that they were not his children after all and that that you ve been correct, but it excited tat kind of a turn for the worse and that he said to me I'm really paranoid. He started to accuse people of poisoning as food. He became better, Horrider, especially with books and dumb problem, the greatest crime, a man can commit Midcentury America. He did not want to work right, so that was basically that he ended up getting sent to an asylum in Canada and then two epsilon. He eventually end been been an absolutely fur, I think, of a ball. now twenty years, or at least in and out of the hospital system for about twenty years and for two ten of those years he had been, he had decided that he was, he was God or Jesus Christ, or both yeah and by the time he got around to Roque Eater wrote each found him. He was in a pretty bad.

after this twenty years he heard about half of his teeth his mouth he still hoarding books carrying around books everywhere. And when you know when asked to he was he said his name was Joseph and he said that I am god- and I guess we'll keep said, will you'll do just fine splendid? Yes, sir, Joseph despite the his inability to take care of himself, and you know the fact that he hoarded and all that he was a very sharp person. So yet remember murmured and keep their mind like that. He was it. He was very sharp and Writers well climb and these are these men's names were changed Clyde Benson he was seventy he'd been spit eyes for the last seventeen year. He was in pretty rough shape. He really was in a row. Keats definitely you're starts to recognise that pretty quickly after meeting Clyde and ends up all night

letting him just stay in the group. Even though, is not really participating any longer. But- clyde- was apparently raise in overprotected manner and didn't really learn how to make his own decisions and kind of ended up stunted as a result, which can make your way through life like that, if you if you want to, but he ended up turning to alcohol and became of of really hard core alcoholic to where it was during the wreck, his life and a pair that came in to collision with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, simple yeah and you know it seems like the drinking was the anytime. You have a undiagnosed condition like this and you you poor alcoholism, on top of it or any kind of you know: drug addiction, it's gonna, it's just gonna be even worse and eventually he was arrested for people

drunkenness the pretty violent arrest and in jail. He was violent and he was saying he was Jesus Christ. That he was God he was reborn through his first wife Shirley, I believe she had passed away and he did get remarried and it was surely the queen of Heaven- and it is why they committed him to a mental hospital when he was fifty three where he that diagnosis and dumb he was he was the one that was easily the most far gone and tough tough. To reach in sport walked round mumbling. He also didn't have many if any of his teeth the occasionally would like still had that violence in him, where he would have these sort of violent outbursts, but then calm down again yeah when he did. He was very direct into the point in, but I dont think you actually physically violent was he. I don't think so. I think just could be scary at times right. So here

say things like I am him see now understand that That was the extent of how he would explain that he was God he didn't needed to be challenged and if you did try to challenge it here, just shut you down kind of thing in a very welcome the allocation, son of a scary way, Sir Leon was perhaps one of the saddest of the three cases in that he was had only been hospitalized for about five years. He was younger thirty eight years old and he was the embed snap judgments great because they had his two initial graduate assistance on should Bonnier AIR and happy so like your first in experience on the pod guest in they were saying that he was the one that broke heart the most, because he was the one that most likely could have been rehabilitated, and it just toward them up that they can, they liked him alive. He was a real personable guy and

what it was very engaging with stories and they really thought that they could have helped him had it not been you know in part by what happened with wrote, each, which is because it means they wrote each made things much much worse. He and his people, and that something to really understand that there are three men who were living. You know Delusional lies in this stay mental hospital, but They were generally unmolested until there may. They were dragged into this study and messed with like in ways that you just don't do to other people, you know and that their liar probably were worse far worse than they would have been had they never met Milton Rocky. yes, Sir Leon's deal was his mother was almost certainly schizophrenia as well and had delusions religious delusions. So he was raised and household with ease but basically a real, a religious fanatic and that impact at him from the very beginning, of course,

he's in the diagnosed with schizophrenia, is well, but going up, and I mean in that kind of environment. Definitely, I think, led to the Christ thing for sure. yeah he had like. There is a time when he was leaving a normal life. He served in war war too. He worked different jobs back in Detroit. we tried to go to college is trying to make a life for himself, but he he suffered from fatigue, which I looked up, is apparently a really tough co morbidity with psychotic disorders. and they it's like gotta, terrible, positive feedback. Where You know that more tired you get them for the worse. Your disorder is in the worst or disorder is the harder it can be to sleep in rice, not good, so we had that many also thirty hearing voices himself there were telling him that he was Jesus Christ then really jive very well with his mother's zone, religious fanaticism, because he saw that she was you know. What

keeping these other. What he considered, I all right. Anyone on a bit a violent tear once removing all the all the pictures of the saints in breaking all of the figurines and all that stuff in demanding that his mother, worship, him is Jesus Christ, threatening that is, she didn't. He would strangle. Her so that was enough to get em locked up for good, had already been locked up one time for a brief period and then about six months after that he was locked up from then until the time that he met Millbrook each right, and that was what goggins. Man, sorry, so he he went by not Leon and again Leon was a fake name that Roque each gave him further book, but he went I doktor Domino domino forum at Rex, Residuum, simplest Christianity, purist Mantelish Doktor, which is why for Lord of Lords, king of kings, simple christian boy psychiatrists, but he asked

when the column Rex for Short- and they said thanks sure, Perhaps he was he was like you said like him, the most probably the most personable he like Joseph. He was very sharp to, but also like from a very young age, early stage. He saw quite clearly what road Keats was trying to do, and he thought that it was more repugnant. that that it was not a nice thing to do to somebody they shouldn't mess with people like then he said as much multiple times throughout the study Yes, this is when he hires those to grant assistance is when he finds the guy's gets this x I'm going in earnest, You know is hypothesis was that if I can have the Three men confront one another about them: being the real price that it could rock them into what he saw is reality Anna and get them out of these delusions, and that did

happened. Well, it didn't happen at all through the experiment, but initially they what they did was they really dug in they each have their own way of doing so, but they each again and said Nora. Now I am the real Christ and each had different sort of methods of deal. with the others, but none of them wavered initially known, and it was really really. It was kind of. it in and of itself. Does that finding that Not only did they not have their identity shattered, but they just three brief, bill and reinforced their identities. However, they they could find a way to do it to their own satisfaction. That's a pretty big the logical finding in and of itself you know, although it doesn't seem worth putting these and through that, just to find that out. You know you for sure. I think Joseph said Joseph was more one disorder, laugh it off. He said there is nothing wrong

Today, I knew I was what I am today. I am what I am I'm not, about losing my identity. and we also should point out that Joseph in this for trade in the movie too, by Peter language. He was but with an english accent, he thought he was for its himself tat. He was from England. Did he descendant of royalty and at the hospital was an english stronghold, nothing, I didn't notice you just slip Peter Dink Lodge in there That only leaves one more. I don't need to do. The third. oh well everything's about Joseph was his his interpretation of why they were there in this study by the three of these men had been brought together was so that they could sword with the other two that they weren't Christ that he was one who is actually cry, so he could do. Is work here on earth better without having these to hum. basically harassing them or whatever. Yet in

Leon like I was saying we I was the one who can. I saw the most through creatures, saw a row row peaches intentions and saw the rare just wrong and like clay, everything Clyde said Adam that they were a re rise. That's what he's he considered the other two or a hick, she said you know I am who I am and also by the way. We all know that I'm really garden and Leon he said Adam said the two were instrumental gods. They were hollowed out gods. Thereupon, dead already and machines were operating them and making them say these things, but even in that, like he wasn't attacking them personally, was why he felt forced to explain his mission, and so that's what he said his position was, but he was whoever, as he was saying this, he would turn to Joseph. He would turn decline and he would say you know

I I mean the scene, I respectfully I don't mean to be to tear you down whatever your belief. Is your belief and I dont want and are not trying to take it from you. I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs and that's that's good enough, and so through that kind of like tat, who's. There was kind of established between these three men. They basically kept the researchers at bay. The researchers would try to come in and bus things up and get him to like argue, or you know, make confront one another. But when left alone. Those three men just generally did not argue about. Who was God they avoid subject altogether and just let the other ones be, and in just kind of inner live and let live kind of position which I think is is pretty Heartening, you know it is in that was. That was one of the things that came through on that snapped judgment with the two research assistants was that there too was that these men were

generally, like after the initial sort of denial, stuff They were generally pretty respectful and wanted to give each other the space to believe They were Christ if they wanted to in this was that showed, was empathy and that something that none of them saw coming at this. Rocky each is being Kyler, hassle by these to grant assistance and hey, listen man. These You're kind of ok with this in your taking this thing too far, eventually he was. He ignore them, basically, and eventually they quit before this next phase starts, ok and because they didn't agree with what was going on, as they saw these three guys that were generally risk. four for one another they saw Okey would do things like. journalists wrote a story about them at one point that was obviously not flattering at all- to the three crises in a key to read this allowed them. I, like you, just try.

Pushed their buttons and initiate this conflict. and the two greatest incidental you're, like we're out here, yeah of that stuff, In particular, it was about how row Keats was treating three psychotic men who thought they were Christ in to read that to them is really man again he's trying to see what would happen if there they were confronted with their identities being considered delusional by other people and then Leon in particular in like that he said that a dead actors. A person is supposed to be a doctor supposed to lift up, build up guy direct inspire he said away. What you have just done is deploring and rocky in deploring. I travelled seventy five miles and snow and stormed come see you and we as a But what was your intention in come right me, sir, so him he didn't put up with road. Teaches bs at all, which is pretty cool in order to hold delusions and have your delusions attacked like that and then to two to be able to push back, but also,

still a respectful ways. I think Leon's. One of these were the gray, on some hero of of twentieth century America? Totally? Should we take a break of workplace? Do yeah? I say we take a break me. We'll be right back, A dudes we know, two out of three of you will experience some form of hair loss at the time, you're thirty five years old, yeah there's only two FDA, approve medications that can prevent hair loss in the entire United States and keeps offers both keeps offers a simple.

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we think everything using hybrid cloud and ere I IBM is helping businesses take a scientific approach to invent, discover and solve problems like no one else get a new person, de on working in today's world at IBM, dot com, slash think So before stage two starts when things get really unethical well before this is kind of part of the unethical, the two. It's, an assistants had left, and he has this new young- pretty woman is a great assistant and bay sickly tells her to flirt with Leon, and to see if he can make her make him fall in love with her and that's it actually what happened in Leon fell in love with her and was destroyed when he basically came to realize on his own, That was never gonna happen for him and

it's getting better and better yeah yeah. Well, when is grad assistant said you've gone too far. I think Rokeach probably said something along the lines of too far. I haven't even begun to go too far, but your gives his watch what's next yeah, but there was- beat measure releasing the earth like cells burial exactly. That is exactly what I was thinking. I thank you for putting into words So what happened next so happen. Next is as follows: there broke each basically saw like these guys are not going for this. For this, the level of prodding that I've been doing, I mean really can in turn up the heat, And he wondered if you took the members p, there that were part of these. These patients delusional belief systems and personified like pretend you're them say sorted communicating with them through letters or whatever yeah I'm. What would happen?

did you conceivably get these people to abandon their delusions under the guidance of these authority figures, there were actually part of their decisions is really kind of mind boggling, when you lay it out like a flow chart like that in a year that this, like just kept getting worse and worse so he identified these authority figures in all three of them. I guess to his read it. He laid off of Clyde because I mean I don't feel so much empathy as it was, he knew he wasn't getting very far with Clyde or maybe scared of what would happen if Clyde, maybe you know, Yak is Clyde, was definitely could be able scary, but so he laid off of Clyde Body found that Joseph said, the superintendent of the hospital named Doktor Yoda why you d are with his dad and Leon, said that he, had a wife. He had a couple, his wife, the posted Virgin Mary who is it

uncle. Reincarnated is Michael. The arch angel archangel. Archangel. Those are two different, sir. He was married to the bus virgin and had their uncle yeah. He had those too though there was there was his. He was married to his uncle. He had another wife later on Nay, Madame Yeti woman, after stop being married to the blasted Virgin Mary bitter eyes. Uncle Michael, the argued argue: and your married busted, the bus virgin Mary right? sounds a little confusing, but when you download stuff like this, I think it has to be a little can be while the upshot of it is Roque. Each started posing as Madame Yeti woman. and started a letter writing campaign as Madame Yeti, woman, basically reaching out to say, hey Leon, I'd, say say hi, I'm thinking of you and let's start talking, so there was correspond that was established as

as Leon's delusion dilute like wife, Madame Yeti woman yeah and he'd you. We should point out that he supposedly had gotten, not suppose I think he did get the hospitals, permission to sign off on this. As long as he said. Listen, it's all gonna be positive, stuff I'm not going to be riding them letter saying to go start a fight or anything like that. So I'm going to send them positive message on messages and it and I'm going to stop. If this upsetting to these guys and so they said sure, go ahead. Yeah. And so we did, he did go ahead furtively. I believe, and by Time Leon had one of the things that he had done to transform. His identity was to become doc, righteous ideals dung her doktor, our eye dog and apparently the head nurse asked him directly like. Can I please not call you doctor down? I said yes, call me our eye, but everybody call them doktor our eye. Dong. Any did this, Kids concluded with Tibet.

They make himself not worthy of of being harassed anymore, but he was still secretly god like he knew he was God he was just Pritchett pretending to be something else and during a period he became married to Madame Yeti woman, so rude Keats started dressing lighters is to doktor. Are I don and basically say as you know, is a dollar one. Don't you go, buy or sell something nice in the hospital store and then share the change with Clyde and Joseph in or on one other thing that they would do as they would take turns between the three patients is who is going to lead the session that day and one of them you did when you led the session, was you chose what song everybody song at the beginning and at the end of the session, which is adorable so. Madam Yeti woman suggested that choose onward christian soldiers and he chose onward Christian. Soldiers and so like to row peaches like there's this theirs

an actual influence read there is being exerted by this delusional figure and also demonstrates that Leon is showing like. He definitely believe. Madam Yeti woman's a person for sure yeah and eventually what broke it was as posing. Madame Yeti, woman, Ass Leon to stop using the name, doktor dung, the name He seems to have been a sticking point with a lot of people. or maybe he just thought that that would is since he held on it. So strongly? That would have been like the toughest thing to make him do and that was sort of it. He was asked about. The letter and Leon doesn't really say anything about asking to be too the name doktor dung. He just start talking more and more about God, being both male and female in insane insane and said care for the insanity of God and then set out a want any more letters and basically can shut it down, and so with

those with Leon's letters in particular. There is a couple like really sad things like the whole thing was: to begin with, but there's this passage in the book where Leon gets a letter and and broke each realises that he's holding back tears any certain can like. Why are you like what you know? Are you happy said? Yes, I'm very happy it's a very poor. feeling to have some one think of you like, like He was. He was moved to tears by the idea that Madame Yeti woman was was writing to him and in talking about carrying form in sending money to go by himself things with, and rather than You say like oil, we might want to back this off Rocky used its two step up and arrange for a meeting with Madame Yeti woman near There was no Madame Yeti woman who is supposed to show up. He was just he was going to get stood up from the outset, but still

really on went to go meet Madame Yeti woman in his heart broken, I think, gives after that, that he stopped respond. To the letters yeah, and you know when he said I dont want these letters anymore. I don't receive them, you would think That's when Roque each would say alright. Well, what's to stop this altogether, he didn't because he remembered that Leon had another authority figure in his life, which was his uncle George Bernard Brown, a k, a the Angel Michael and so he said, hey I'll, have someone call impose as his uncle now and this didn't work from the beginning Leon. Guess the voice was just so far off, or maybe Leon was just really wise too. This point said you know none of this. Isn't this even close. the voice goodbye up, and then they asked about the Call- and he said I don't believe in mental torture, sir, so it seems

He was sort of onto him at this point or you know, was onto him from the beginning, but on to him about this ruse, I don't think he was onto him from the beginning. I think that he may I mean from the beginning of the experiments he was where I will get it. I see what you say but yeah, but it's really easy to forget, because you're reading Roque Heaters accounts that these men work in on the idea that it was from Roque each stable, that these letters were coming foster their third delusion. I'll figure out the whole point which makes it even more got wrenching. When you stop and remember that you now near so then says: ok, I Leon's Dunham undone writing letters to him. Who can I write letters to next any moves on to Joseph fry yeah. So this was the one where the superintendent, the fictional doktor Yoda, was the authority figure for Joseph who he saw as a father figure, and so, of course, smoke. Each is gonna play up this whole father figure thing in the letters sand. That

loved him like a son. He just wanted the best things for him and if you remember from the original sort of quick bio just His father was awful and abuse if so, I he's we playing into his deepest sorted insecurities here. Be assured that I will always love you just exactly like a father who deeply let his own signed. It's really talked even research, the stuff yeah, so so, just with them with Leon through these letters is Doctor Yoda. He tried to get Joseph Sister doing stuff innocuous stuff at first, like it it saying sub, he didn't hey, stop saying that he was from England in ideas from Quebec started going the church services that kind of stuff. So there was an influence on Joseph just like there was, and only on using their delusional characters or delusional friends, thorny figures, whatever

I think, even Doktor Yoda prescribed the fake doktor Yoda prescribed a placebo for Joseph Stomach ailments. He had like digestive problems or stomach hurt, and these placebo pills just fix, I'm right up here, so the stomach pills placebos supposedly worked and then he said our aid will that word. So I'm gonna give you pills to base the cure your mind, and if you want to fix, fix yourself for good take these bills, which is, I mean this is so far off the charts of unethical. I can't even describe how far off the charts it is and he said basically, I think he said he gave an ultimatum. He says I am only going to continue to give these bills that supposedly make your mind right if you admit that you're in a mental hospital, and it's not an english stronghold and

if I am, he said it like sign something just said: no Mckenna Sinus any cut off this placebo medication that he believe my fixing his brain. And a kind of petered out after that, and it was just like it is to think about these guys going through this, like hope, they're getting better, and it was all fake yeah apparently stoplight writing to Doktor Yoda and moved on D, J F k- thirty writing letters. J, F K asking to be one of his speech writers because Remember hears writers. Well right, sir. speeches like ok, all right, let's see, what's next o nothing's net This is the end of the line he finally realize like okay. This is going anywhere, not only had he not at all moved com its delusions or Joseph solutions, the only persons whose delude and had changed at All- was Leon's in his

he's gotten more complex and intricate, certainly not any closer to reality. They got further away from reality because of this influence from from the oh Qichen is his experiment. Any like a pretty rich little admission the end the book, then he says We do not know to what extent are very presence, behaviour and questions may have influenced the reserve to obtain, which is bizarre to say, because the whole point of the experiment was to influence these people through these. This spare him. So as a really weird thing that even put it in their from some of the stuff that I've read kind of picking apart this book. At the end it really just kind of Peters out, like he's this kind of flashing in the air with his sword, trying to figure out. You know what the point was of all this stuff. Even without like a satisfying conclusion or end

in it are getting published in nineteen. Sixty four and became like of a really big success in the field of but also got widely criticised right out of the gate, because, even though this was midcentury american we're talking about mental patients in Midcentury America, Very little right, Sir retreated very poorly, like there is still by a lot of people around really don't do this to human beings, as is not ok, not everybody did, but some you know some critics safely came out immediately gear, its rocky time noted really gonna come to terms with what he had done and eventually did, though, seventeen years later. They re should reassure the book in nineteen eighty one and he wrote a new forward. He admitted in interviews and other places as well that he was also You know innocent suffering from godlike delusions and that he was playing God with these men and

regretted it. He regretted publishing. He said I regret. Having written in published a study when I did a lot of them in that he wishes he could have reflected more on it or what, but I don't know either he did sort of recant and say he didn't do the right thing. It's worth pointing out that this was Six years into his suffering spinal cancer, so I don't know that had of knowing the end was near him had something to do with his sword of self reflection. he eventually died and nineteen. Eighty eight at the age of seventy after a thirteen year battle was spinal. Can't and you know, left the social psychology, world sort of rocks like it like. I said I study this in college and became sort of like the Stanford prison experiment right. became worth studying, but for the reasons that they initially launched a study to begin with. No, he found

we figured out the point of the book in the point of the book was for him to figure out that it was unethical what he was doing in the highly come to terms with what he done these poor men and that you have a right to just be left alone and not have your identity challenge, no matter what you believe you are, who you believe you are, and so here We changed his his methods. He has his general belief. and the idea of belief systems in the same, but he changed his tactics in that he got Wolden Self confrontation were I to present. People with you know, self examination where they would examine what their values were, what their beliefs were and then the kind of being challenged on that? Like ok, you believe, in freedom, you place a high value on freedom, but you also raided equality pretty low, but is an equality. freedom for everybody, so you care about your freedom, benign other people's freedom. How do I really gibe and then the hopeless

that they would go back and sulphur fight to me like that, I really do care about freedom. I do care about other people. Maybe I should carry out more about equality and improve as a person and that's all timidly, how he ended up, making his name, starting in the seventies Yeah, and I gotta tell you, when you read some of his regret, about it. He says things like reset things like in the end some one was cured in it was me, it is it that all bother me a little bit too how he he still made it about himself, somehow even he did say he regretted it. Everything at us I never heard as much regret about These three men. An interest in and putting them in the positions of like they were. The ones who help me out in the end was just at, unlike that die, no exact to me it is still smacks of sulphur.

I met immediately and also like what happened to these men after the experiment was done. There just cast right back into the general populations right, like used. Kleenex basically did to deal with what they just been through. This. it's his ride all around for sure. At the very least it does exist. It take to make my millbrook each feel better right You got anything else. No, I mean if you want to see some of his later work, that you are talking about the value of their all kinds. Really wacky Youtube videos from people about that stuff, nice and if you want me the movie that they re made about this. Don't Well is, as I said, don't see that movie it's time, of course for listener. Male everybody I'm gonna call this a guy who has the same step on a crackling as I do. This from Jared Miller

hey guys, I gotta say Chuck as the only other person I've heard to express this compulsion and I have if I stepped on a surface. It is different, the majority of wearing walking a try to get my other foot had the same sensation. This can be the I'm between the sidewalk segments or attraction sticker and unpaid, etc. I gotta say: jeered, same with me. Not just cracks can be anything sure, even which part of the What is effected say? with me do, if I do it my heel to do the nets with my heel very interesting, even found myself, do it with the colors of tiles and a pattern floor same here. For me, it's about symmetrical sensations. I sometimes realise and doing it when I'm eating and have well chewing time on each side. I don't do that once a through a tear you, sir we're yeah, he really other. Once I became aware of it at a fully conscious level. I also became cell anxious about tried, different things to break myself. The habit at times has been agreed

extreme as extra is forcing myself to maintain and even gate, no matter what you have done that while consciously reminding myself that sensations are temporary and then evening. Even or go away, especially by ignore it. Thanks for all the hours of entertainment, you were in early discovery of mining. yes world back in two thousand and nine None of the shows I started listening to back then are still going That's our motto: Jared just keep doing it just no matter what Rachel Stop, please, God stop, don't know it just listen so that's jeered at any time by way of veto way to go Jared from all over the place staring at her was it. I will remember sorry, Idaho, about the worsening the confused apologize So I see, if you and again treacherously Jerry did please email me. Won't you, you can send us an email to stuff park

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Since the break out daily pod verbal explore the intersection of power, business technology, culture and yes, politics to arena nine and I'm a host to the recount daily POD, I've spent decades covered politics and foreign affairs. As a white House, reporter and Middle EAST corresponded travelling everywhere from bad Rouge Benghazi. Each morning on the recount daily pod I'll bring you a quick run down the top headlines and then an in depth interview with decision makers, the reporters covering them, an experts, break it all down whose actually controlling the narrative and how is it? Shifting we'll connect the dots, helping you re frame and rethink the issues that matter listen to the recount daily part on the eye heart radioactive on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.