The future of phone service is here and it's called visible for forty bucks a month. All in you get unlimited data messages and minutes on Verizon's forty LP network, visible d do annual contracts and unlimited data means unlimited. They also to have physical fund source. So you have to deal with annoying sales Well, are you ready to learn more switch to visible, then head divisible, dotcom slashed stuff to get twenty dollars off your first month of service? That's visible that come slush stuff. Welcome to step. You should now production of Iheart Radios House enough work, work, wounded, podcast, I'm Josh, Cargan, there's Charles the beach with bright and there's cheery Jerome rolling over their illegal eagles of broadcasting. You can, I be Darrell Hannah. Yes, I call Barbara Hershey, except who was it

with legal, Eagles Uno, Deborah winger? Yes, Darrell Hannah, even in that now the ass. She was the client of Deborah Winger, ok, you're, not Redford, know I always have to be read as I was like the guy's, a regular robber Redford he'll play him in this area right. That's the street chatter yeah I still be Barbara Hershey, even though she wasn't in the movie sure I think I'm thinking of beaches, oh well, that means I get to be bet Miller, I wonder how many pod save America listeners we just lost to just casually decide to give us a chance. I want to learn about subpoenas right. For we can go and how can we quickly thank the city, of Orlando and greater or Lando in Florida and New Orleans and Greater Louisiana, yes for two fine live shows gathers where a lot of fun

a sea we did Orlando on October. Ninth, I think, and then the tenth fur New Orleans, regardless it was night back to back, to fund filled knights, and there are just both amazing shows, yeah and when this comes out, I think New York Open over. So thank you New York, yet we presume is going to have been a good, time that three night run at the bell. There always great there and that's it too. That's it first further through the year, chuck. So I mean you to everybody who came out to see our shows this year. Yet can we go ahead and tease our January schedule. I should we not. I think we cancer. I will were hoping to be back at sketch West again and then, We settle on waste I don't know what I'm doing is the right way to put it out. We decided on all these. We know yeah we're due in Seattle. We are yeah and what you normally for a swing. We do Portland Seattle Sketch FEST right,

we ve got. I Heredia wards in there in LOS Angeles, and we just you know kind. I have to go to that sorry that I heard podcast towards they don't care about it at all at their head. Your word that we can't even get in that building right exactly so. We Ok, well, we gotta, we gotta pull out. One of our shows cause we're old men who we just can't spend time on the road. So instead we're going to take Portland and put it with another town in the spring summit. More importantly, we will be out there, maybe maybe the cube. That's what that's the talk ass, the chatter around town, but we have no dates confirmed yet, but this just look worse again in the Pacific northwest at the beginning of the year. A much better way to put it, So do you want? I was subpoenas subpoenas you any other other housekeeping the do I don't think so subpoenas weird spelling. Well, yes, I looked up the word and is actually actually words. Words means under penalty anew,

Typically, the first two words that were read in this rid of subpoena basically say under penalty of thumb, blah blah yeah I thickened all. I could think about really dirty dark stuff here. Yes, so I just let you fill in the book the problem, but anyway, under penalty of whatever you need to. One of two things, and there are two types of subpoenas and everybody innovation subpoena. You think like law and order may be visions. A central park ran through your head because this year only exposure to central It is from law and order or you think, of the U S government, because a lot of this is going to be about congressional subpoenas Gazette really the juicy Sabena, yet that It's not like it's new that Congress has just recently started issuing subpoenas its new and conscious of America. In this this age, this generation,

I mean it's been going on for a while, but normally when people think subpoenas until I basically two thousand seventeen. Sixteen eighteen not necessarily in that order. Most people thought of courtroom subpoenas in that is, you know typically the subpoena People are ever going to come up against in their lifetime. That's right, but you mentioned the two types you and I, break out your latin or shall I I you take the first I'll, take the second ok, the person's easy. The first one is subpoena add testify. Condom well? How did you see that AIDS is mouse appear and when I read the next to it, so that those sorry the first one, the one you just said. That means you gotta come to court. He just nailed yeah. It says that you have to come and testify and human

not be a party to the law suit like this is it can be a civil case or a criminal case. It's a big thing, the point out, but basically saying you have some information, We witnessed it act, you overheard a conversation, the the defendant confess something to you. We need you to come to court and tell your story. That's what that first subpoenas say to do yet, not necessarily court court, but it can be any kind of legal authority. Yeah could be, apposition. Your could be an arbitration, but typically it's the authority of a court of law. Basically say we're going to levy a fine against you or we're going to arrest you and put you in jail. If you don't listen that that used to tat kind of enforced subpoena Citrate, so the second one is the subpoena deuces take him. Hey nice. Thank you and that is basically saying hey. You have a document. You have a hare sample, you

have some sort of bodily fluids, we're gonna get our hands on. You have Can we couldn't apes, yeah your hard drive. You know something like that, that we want you to produce because we wanted. It, as evidenced in really important point to put here like a court is saying a court or an official of the court or of the government is saying, We want you to do this because we have this lawsuit going on and you have something we need, but it's not necessarily the judge the judges signing off, and it's really a lawyer or of one side of the other saying hey. I heard that this person has the secret tape and to get my hands on judge. Can you order this person to bring it to me so there can enter into evidence, and then the judge says speak to my clerk and then the clerk of the usually the clerk of the judges handling that case they talk to them, and yet now generally issue it on a MAC

official court, let her head in official documentation, select, the judges were bring their hands of it necessarily now I'm sure like if they do something egregiously wrongly judges can hear about it and punish them that right and then its usually in person can handed to you like on the tv shows and movies yet either by a sheriff deputy or a process server. Yeah, but not always get depends on if its congressional or, if it's you know civil regular Josh, most yeah. What yet for sure- but I think, even if it is regular civil Josh, most of you- can still go higher the sheriffs Department to serve papers to service you know for sure, I think the congressional ones are not served by the sheriff. Oh I see who do they use? I think it depends. It could I mean the way congressional supply, work is all sort of

and on the individual committee that seeking that subpoena, so they all have their own individual rules about like weather. The majority vote to even get a subpoena or whether the chair That committee is now, has the power to grant or request a subpoena. I've read, some of them know that it's a real down or to get a subpoena says some congressional committees use that mascot. From the nineteen eighty four Olympics, the eager to come issue your papers, remember that when you don't remember that Eagle now a cartoon eagle from nineteen. Eighty four ya mean liking. I can't get past the Atlanta Olympics mascots. That's why I can't go back to nineteen. Eighty four was it what's it or whose it I don't even know it was one of those two world wars that thing it was a little last minute thing. He was the name, it was what's it or whose it was it. Yes, yes, man, it was bad. I was out of town, I fled

miss anything about. I do remember watching the opening, whatever their call. The opening ceremony is opening ceremony in seeing me stainless steel pickup drugs driving around in just thinking how boy yeah for those of you who are like they talk about this before we we have and were still there upset about it. We'll talk about it again in five hundred years. We haven't forgotten, yes, stainless steel pick up drugs, they have dreams about those drugs, they just circulate. You play striper at the lowest possible volume. Man, ok, so we ve got different kinds of subpoenas, but both of them apply to either courts of law or Congress. So there's one big question that most people who get a subpoena ask themselves the moment

their served the paper, and that is, can I ignore them back to have to do this as Scrite, who give what happens to me? If I just pretend like I never got this naturally taught to do. I was reading about process servers and they the people who are issued subpoena, though the lawyer whose ask him with his penis say they want some sort of proof, as you got that paper so they have to. There's a certain rules and regulations to serves to survey somebody with a subpoena. So it's really difficult to pretend like you're, not like you didn't get it and a lot of people actually go to a tremendous amount of trouble to avoid being served to subpoena jury. Will move around, they will pretend they're not home. They won't let any one else answer the door has in some states. You can leave it with a competent thirteen year old are eighty year old, you'll, see their hands in their ears and go Lala hate exactly they'll. Do a lot of stuff to keep from being served by does. Actually it will just?

lay being served in the long run. You will still theirs the remedies they can use, they can to mail it to your house certified mail, and if the male person says this was dropped off, they made it to their house. That's enough or if you can say I took the numbers off my mailbox way. Going. Do now chump they can actually opposed. An ad in the local legal organ the newspaper and then that will be considered serving you. So either way, you're going to end up being considered to have received this subpoena eventually, and if you do you probably ignore it yeah. I mean it says here in this article which most of this is from the house of her ex article about subpoenas, but it says you know what he's? U, he just go or produced documents, but as well cover here in a lot of this congressional oversight stuff. That is not the route that people take generally in government.

Yeah, and I thought it was a kind of an oversight did not say like, but also somebody serves you with a subpoena. Let go you don't know, sir have to hire lawyer, but at least consult with one might get some legal advice say this is what I got. You know what what should I do with this is. As you know, What do you know there's a lot of questions that you should have answered before you just act on a subpoena yeah. And you know when it comes to ignoring subpoenas and that's what a lot of this will be about, as is what's going. With our government right now in previously in what happens, if you'd defy Congress, and is there any account it for that, or can you to sit on your hands, say nope, but there had been The very famous cases in the past you know, fifteen years or so, where subpoenas have been ignored, starting almost starting with, but we can start with air colder attorney general for Brok, Obama

Yet it was a big one that was part of the operation. The fast and furious scandal scandal yeah Definitely a scandal from what I remember involved, like secret gun sales oral. Some guns were like let out into the community to be traced to see her. They went to, and one of em ended up being used to murder and ice officer. I believe attorney general Eric holder refused under the direction of about to answer that subpoena and he became the first sitting cabinet member to be voted in contempt of Congress It was all right yeah and you know you don't like or what happens in well three and one slash. Two years later, a judge ruled that he did not have the right to defy Congress, and by that time there was a new Congress and it was a moot point-

It's a really big big thing to remember is like what contempt of Congress vote where you are supposedly ensure. Both for ignoring a subpoena only laugh as long as that session of Congress, unless the next session of Congress wants to pick it up a yes, but then they have to hold another vote and the chances that that the that there has been a change in leadership potentially that congresses. You know high enough that if you, if you make it through that Congress, you know I'm going into recession you probably going to get away with it, and I mean that's par for the course. It wasn't just Eric holder who got away with it, Harry my who was a White House counsel of George W Bush? There is a mass political firing of: U S attack agenda two thousand eight, yet she and, I think, chief of staff, of the time Joshua Bolton were both held in contempt of Congress and man. If you look up like you, know, followup reporting on this stuff,

like you know, while it's going on there like they could face fines in jail time. Finally, found some follow up is like nothing. Nothing happened at absolutely solely Nottingham. There is no legal ramifications. The cases no personal ramifications there was nothing happened whatsoever, for to Harriet Myers or Joshua Bolton or Eric holder for just saying Congress. The United States Congress go sit on it, We are essentially what you're saying when you ignore Subpoena CN and because of this You remember, representative, Darrell Ayesha, probably by name. He was, he was involved in trying to get here a colder. You know in the room, and he was so much he sponsored or in short a bill to strengthen subpoena enforcement power and it died in the Senate and before we, I think, we're about to take a break before we do that that we should mention that currently a White House cam

has refused, has refused to testify or refuse to answer his subpoena under right now, he's being sued by the house, king by the House that August and he particular an unusual situation because, at least with Harry admires or with Joshua Wolden or with Eric holder, when they were directed by the president at the time, to buy the president at the time not to submit to that subpoena from Congress. They were part of the present directed not to do not to cooperate with the subpoena after he had already left so after he had already left civil service, he was no longer part of the executive branch, so that deftly makes it in in your saying how white how this is Congress? How can the president just how this Congress, how can the president to say two signora that subpoena and people get away with it? There is actually

this law, that's been built over the centuries, a kind of establishes that- and I say, chuck we take a break in the wool dive into that take a break in the wool dive into that. After this case law, Key, we co, create super cool hands on projects for kids to make learning about steam fun and if you know how esteem as science technology engineering are an math. All of these neat things come in a box to your door set that your child is going to love to open. That's right, everyone I have a four year old and she loved this thing. She opened up this box before you know it she's, making finger puppets, she's, making little binoculars and was so excited each month. The kid in your life receives a brand new fun and engaging project with all the supplies. We're gonna need. The challenge themselves creatively

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be overly broad. It may be kind of a fishing expedition. It may put you at risk to come from Reading give this testimony to hand over these documents, and if you if you are a lawyer and say hey these, Things are more about, they can go, in argue to the judge, lay k how about we just limit this subpoenaed of these documents in everything on my clients, hard drive or it's really, they hardship for my client to make it here and there fifteen dollars a day that you'd the courts paying him for coming to testify, isn't actually going to cover it. So you know: can we can we negotiate a higher fee or something like that? There's a lot of stuff that can be done, but this is a tactic. That's also used with congressional subpoenas to wear say like this. Can a branch will go? I think that this is a little overly broad, but maybe we could give you this document. Will that satisfy you and the NATO nope? Sometimes they say yes,

in part of their negotiation comes out of this subpoena process is a response to it, but it none that would have any effect whatsoever if Congress didn't have any redress for for enforcing its subpoenas. If somebody ignores it yeah, I mean technically there are fines in jail time sort of looming, but the more- read about this stuff, especially when it comes to congressional oversight. The more it became clear that none of that stuff really happens, it's all just dangled out there as a means. Negotiate something with each other over a pretty long period. Time, usually for sure here. Eric holder thing was. It was like four years before he finally handed over the file of, and I think com

said already gone on to such an you said it was basically just the whole thing had died down, which I think is basically that the stalling tactics that people ignore subpoenas for like that's, why they're doing it yeah? So, technically, if you divide Congress. The committee that issued that subpoena is gonna vote to issue a citation, a contempt citation and then it's gotta go the full chamber to vote on it and, if goes through and passes which it has before. Then there are three three basic ways you can prosecute that charge right in each one is worthless. They are pretty much like this is. We would ever give official legal advice to forestall because we're not lawyers or even trained as lawyers, but from what I can tell there's just nothing happened. See you if you ignore congressional subpoena by most people, respond to it, because I feel the further down the food chain, you are the more light

The Congress is to do something in retaliation to you. Yeah well, listless go through the three at least fine if for no other reason than pure folly, so they if they vote in that contempt. Citation goes through. It is then under the control of the executive branch. Me think our great the president or a great the president. It really neither, as is the Justice Department which is part of the regular branch, it's up to them, to decide whether or not their gonna prosecute credit, we and they're going to say no they're, gonna, say then we'll talk a lot about exists privilege coming up, but though, usually site that declined to prosecute basically kind of saying You know what we don't get involved in the stuff right, so so that is specifically when it comes to subpoena saying something from the White House Correct or the executive branch. Now, if the

If, if Congress is being ignored by say, like the owner of the Houston asked rose, they can go the d o J and say hey the Houston, asters baseball team owners ignoring a subpoena, we want you to go after the guy and they'll go after the guy. It's when its executive privilege is being cited, that the deal Jason, You know how it's our jurisdiction to decide whether to prosecute this or going to decline to do that, because it our own people and we're just consider this an internal executive branch matter. Number two is the civil judgment right. That's when you need the courts to basically enforced this going to court. In saying, we need your help to enforce this civil suit against somebody stiffness Right like you know how you can go arrest. Somebody and put him in jail. Can you do that on our behalf? Basically, but this is super slow, like turtle like slow, but I think the idea is that the the thought that

may be somewhere a couple years down. The line, there's going to be a judgment against where you're going to have to pay a hundred thousand dollars to Congress, something like there's been like twelve months in jail. We'll get you too to the table to negotiate. You know what documents they actually want or what testimony they want Gaston. Leverage right. So the third one is something that isn't use any more really. It's called inherent contempt. Power was last night, in thirty five, and this is in this- is sort of the jail thing and while there is no capital jail, they do have a holding cell yeah, like the sergeant at arms of the senator the House depend and whose issuing the subpoena and who voted to told you in contempt. An armed officer of the Congress will show up in you're under arrest, congresses, you're under arrest. You have to come with me or

has been kind of boo bounced around lately by Democrats in the house. Replacing the idea jailing somebody of arresting and jailing of with a much much stiffer fine and people of tradition. Faced something more in the order of, I think, between twenty five thousand two hundred fifty thousand dollars, I think a day. Actually, for ignoring this kind of stuff, which I guess I would get people moving if they actually go through with that, I would think so caught him in the pocket book bf I mean that hard, that's and imposes the government too it's. Like hey. You know these tax credits you're getting were taking those away, and this tax return that you were expecting me to hang on to that like that's. This is where they could actually do something. I think so, if it's not a congressional subpoena, if it's just like we're talking about it, regular court subpoena, it all depends on what jurisdiction urine and the presiding judge. That's on that case. Yes,

again, because you can be arrested. Rear is a matter of routine course of of a court. You really should respond at least to a subpoena, or else you know. The chances of something happening to you from a court of law are much higher than Congress apparently church. So we talk about case law. Yes, fine away the boring stuff out of the year. This first one is interesting and the way the judiciary works in these countries, to super fascinating to me, the older get no more! I read about it, I'm not become legal want by any means illegal legal, but I get it like. You know I get it that people are super into this kind of thing. I didn't realize you gotten individuality, sherry near having is pretty fascinating. Look at you, you knew it is like news following the news or something Year N,

sort of reading about a case like in this case from eighteen hundred, and then you know precedent and what that means right and when it, when it shouldn't matter and should matter like the one from meeting hundred, you talk him. U S, VIII Cooper yeah Thomas Cooper, who is a scientist in an attorney in Asia, a thorn in the side. President John Adams, right in a big way, yeah so in, I think seventeen. Ninety eight year, the? U S past the sedition act, which said they it's illegal to criticise the? U s from, unfortunately, with Thomas Jefferson came into office, he said, weaken it can and do away with that and keep it away forever as much as we can, but there is a guy named Thomas Cooper who, like you said, was a thorn in the side of John Adams and he was arrested. Prosecuted during a time when the sedition act was still in effect and heel? He lost his case

but the way that it relates to subpoenas in ignoring subpoenas and specifically the executive branch, ignore, subpoenas. Is that all the way back in eighteen hundred when the United States was just a couple of decades old, this guy Thomas Cooper? tried to subpoena John Adams to come, testifies part of this case and the court said we don't really subpoena president's. We decided that set a precedent for the rest of history. It basically said president's are accepted from the goings on in normal court stuff. Even when there directly related to the case. They don't have to come right by that same case said, but you can Sabena, someone from Congress, that's a big one to that. Was it One could read and work out for Cooper, like you said he was convicted, so none of that mattered, except for establishing this President President president, you got it in this case. You could say it either way.

I guess so that moves us on to seven years. Later: U S! V burn! This is John Marshall, chief Justice, John Marshall. I headed this one up and basically this had to deal with President Thomas Jefferson. Saying hey. They want you to come to provide these documents. It was a deuces, take, do says Disease Deuces, Deuces Tee and Jefferson was Ike, hey here's some of those documents that you want and they're like, but where the rest of them he's like me, and now I'm not going to give you those and I'm also not going to show up, because you know what I got to be: presidenting executive branch is too powerful and too or no two important. It's the only branch that supposed to be open. Twenty four slash, seven

sixty five year and I just can't get away. I come my my work is too important to come, be part of this, and then it gets less and less able to approve these days. I think yet for sure, like you could take off. I have a date right. You got a blackberry, you can definitely email to keep keep tabs on work while you're gone, but yes it. I thought the same thing to that. It does does not hold water, but it does set a precedent for the President, like you were saying, to send those two cases basically say Gather, the again the president doesn't have to come. Be part of this in executive privileges is, I guess, where this came from from this particular case.

Saying like now. The president is enough to have anything to do with this and the president's documents or the president's business and can't be subpoenaed, because we're gonna call this executive privilege right and their five. Basically five types generally of executive privilege that have been used thus far. One is presidential communications. Number two is the deliberate a process. A number three is a turn client communications, big when a fourth one is law enforcement investigations in the fifth one is anything that Sir It is in terms of military or national security, your diplomatic relations, that kind of thing- and that's the one in particular there has been upheld over the years- is the idea that, like the there are four secrets that the White House here

set. It just need to be kept, or else people are gonna lose their lives or a diplomatic ties are gonna, be upset that kind of stuff, and so those should be protected under executive privilege, but the rest of the stuff has been solved to scrutiny over the years for sure yeah, because obviously an executive president is gonna, try and draw that privilege as broadly as possible. Oh yeah for sure- and that's that's especially women case ever since Nixon onward, at least where there's this idea, called them the unitary executive theory, which is basically like you know these are supper branches, a garden. And the executive branches in charge of everything to do with the executive branch has no, it's none of Congress is business and the young. The executive is basically this extraordinarily powerful single person and that's been attempted to be invoked, improve time and time again in throwing off

congressional oversight and that seems to be kind of what were in the midst of right. Now is a really big test of this unitary executive theory in saying, like now, not only just the president but the entire entire president staff, and in fact the entire executive branch can North subpoenas from Congress, because congresses that have any authority over the executive branch, that's kind of what were waiting. Right now and on the one hand, really really just one hand: the girl, value of having an executive like I, Mister Waller Unitary Executive. Is that, if you re vested interests were very powerful group, you ve only got one person did. Change over to your side rather than five hundred of them, you know I mean so it is very data It also very much flies in the face of the three branches of government and the checks and balances that each one spot

have over the other. Yes, because part of part of Congresses role is what's called congressional oversight where it says We are responsible for making sure you're not getting out of control. The president. The executive branch has veto powers Congress. You guys are nuts. This is this is no law that should be passed, I'm going to say no to this law and then the gene, this year, has judicial review. They get to say this laws unjust or this executive agencies. Action is illegal and by doing this, the three branches keep one. Other from getting too strong a unitary executive theory flies in the face of that says, not the executive branch. More powerful than all of the other. Two. Don't have checks over him and was just see what happens from here. That's right to talk about Watergate, yeah, so everyone we should do a full up certain Watergate. I think I said that before I agree, but everyone knows what happened there, President Nixon

I was involved in some hanky activities and congressional committees, there was one special prosecutor in particular name, Archibald Cox. Said: wait a minute. You ve got these secret tapes. You been taken, people in the oval office turned him over. Here's a supply We demand that you turn that over along with some other stuff in the end You demand and we I want you to come here and testify as well and of course, Nix was like now. Don't think that's that's gonna happen here you go here some of these It's just ignore all the parts where it seems like it was heavily edited in sounds roof because someone who was just in the room is no longer in the room and there are nonsense. It is all over the place? It's like the video the guy you get, the high school in donkey Kong remain but executive privilege

was what what he claimed he was protected by. So this went to the Supreme Court in nineteenth. Before, with United States, VIII, Nixon and chief justice burgers. Any incited everything from justice marshals Berryville Madison too. Don't we just talked about United States be and basically. Is there their walk in a fine line there with the judiciary, cause they're, saying, listen, the president needs to be confidential and protected when executing these duties, these constitutional duties on the one hand, but on the other hand, due process. Of laws is. It is an important thing and that's what we're in charge of so they can ended up wanting to protect each. The branches needs it seems like yeah data, They did a very good job in the fact that it was unanimous. I think Renquist was involved with some of the people in so he refused himself from voting, but it was unanimous, eight zero vote saying

You got a hand the the tapes over, because we don't think that you're just trying to protect like intelligent secrets or military secrets or diplomatic secrets. We think you're just basically using the cover of executive privilege to cover your own behind exactly and that does not supersede due process in a court of law which, going on over here with you, know that the trials of these guys who broke into the Watergate so You gotta hand over the tapes and in doing so, you, like you, said he he cited of another case Marbury V Madison, and that's a really, important case in here, to which I think we should talk about starting now, Well, I wanted to mention another quick thing before you dive into Marbury. Another case: U S, we eighty anti! This just basically laid out that

the courts, are only gonna get involved if everyone really tried in good faith to work it out beforehand. So, like basically said where were the last stop here, right I'll just go run into the Supreme Court of the courts in general to figure this stuff out for you right, although I think that they can the says that the Supreme Corridor, the ones who are supposed to be run in the show when it comes to like a high enough official, a case regarding a high enough official sure self. Before it the case said was you have to really the work it out amongst yourself before it even gets to us. Oh gosh, ok, yeah! I guess I see, I see what you say. You are so good. Faith, of course, is broadly defined too. So in Marbury, one Madison that one basically said hey there's were component here. Yes, the the river established that the Legislative Brands Congress can issue subpoenas and that the executive branch can exert executive privilege and say no to some subpoenas undersea,

cases, but s also going to say in four that they court can say no you're. Seventy four secrecy is court can say no you're right to secrecy is most overshadowed shadowed by a writer due process in most cases, but the one that was that really says at the centre of this is the judiciary the judiciary has a right to decide cases where the legislative and executive branches are in dispute. Business, Marbury versus Madison case from I think, one thousand eight and four, and it but I understand a master. Stroke of legal eagerness abides by Justice, John Marshall yeah. Listen, he the long and short Commission of William Marbury that at the case, James Madison, he was trying to withhold. The mission of William Marbury was at the case yeah, because I'm going out of the pack, the courts with friendly judges right, the commission,

had not all been mailed out and in Madison was withholding some and they basically said, listen man. You can't do this It is your job United Commission all the officers of the United States, its like right there in black and white, and you lose right, so that was one part of it. But why? Show figured out what made this a master stroke of legally on this. Is that the there was a basically says you have to do this, which have been granted to the Supreme Court in the world like an act in seventeen. Eighty nine Marshall said so yes, Madison has to give this over like this is just part of his duties in here to give this over like this, is just part of his duties and he's following a law that Congress made. So he subject to that law as a minister of the government, but at the same time, the rid of man to miss power that the Supreme Court has been given is

no we're not in a position to issue a rid of man because under the constitution we're not given that right and so in doing that he established the Supreme Court as the interpreter of what laws constitutional and what is it right? Any did that saying this law that gives us this amazing power is unconstitutional, so he did it by taking how away from the Supreme Court, but in doing so, he gave the Supreme Court a tremendous, a tremendous advantage over the centuries in interpreting what laws constitutional of? What is it in placing itself as arbiter of disputes between the legislative and the executive branch year, which is I mean, that's a lot of what the Supreme Court decides is constitutionality and its it all comes. Should we take another break chairman, I will take another breakin talk a little bit about little bit more about Nixon in.

I will take another breakin talk a little bit about a little bit more about Nixon in what some other presidents have done when slapped the Sabena Register. This aprons, we want to talk to you about the future of phone service, because it is here- and it's called visible yet for Eighty bucks month, all in you get unlimited data messages and minutes on Verizon's forty LP network and visible doesn't do annual contracts. They also do do shady hidden fees or foot long foam bills, either when they say forty bucks a month. They mean three bucks a month yet and when they say unlimited data. That means unlimited data. They also don't have physical phone stores. That means no waiting. A minds are dealing with annoying salespeople with visible. You can sign up by a new

or bring your own device get help. That's a tap away, be a chat text or tweet and get better phone service all from their app or website. Without ever leaving her couch. Yet so are you ready to or more switch divisible, then head divisible, thy com, slash stuff and get twenty dollars off your first month of service and exclusive special offer just for stuff, you should know listeners, that's visible dot com, slash stuff! So don't know what happened and Dixon would the justice did rule that hey dude, you gotta, comply with this deuces deck them here and you gotta turn over these tapes, so Nixon

turn turned over tapes. He did and it all worked out in the enterprise like this is what you would protect. This is fine man state president for a couple more terms. Any did in the world was a better place for that's right, flash forward. Two to Bill Clinton Thumbs. Okay, so here hey, listen man what goes on, and I was much better. What happens in the oval office days in the oval office, executor privilege There are even that stuff and he said: well, you know it's. It's Dick executive privilege, And how I under its approval, so he said I have, executive Mean NEA. Had that privilege, Neither me nor my aids after responded, subpoenas and then he fell into line. Eventually, here you go. Which got him in the well yeah

and and largely because of U S we Nixon. They said you know what you can't stand by this broad executor privilege behind this wall that you build, you're gonna, to comply and he did eventually right, which is true Finally, what happens like the Congress issues Subpoenas secular branch ignores it. The m. The Congress holds the executive branch and contempt, and the judiciary, in almost all away as no you're over exerting your executive privilege to what they're saying here, which you know that gives me hope, because in the past precedent has been set that due process wins out over executive privilege, a kind of across the board it seems like, but that that only holds as long as two things are upheld. One

that is the Supreme Court, is an independent body, regardless of who appointed the judges and then too, if the as long as the executive branch recognizes the authority of the Supreme Court this is where we are starting to like some people can see Are enough along this horizon in the this hath we're heading down? I now there's a point where we could reach where they could be. There could be a Supreme court decision that says yes, executive branch. You have to hand over these aids for testimony they have to come testify about. You know Russia, interference in the two dozen sixteen election, or this call between the president and the ukrainian President and the executive branch still says no, and that is the point that out, When says we have no idea what happens, then? We have

idea. Do you go arrest? These? You know the secretary of the Treasury. Do you go rest. These cabinet members has never been done before. Like what remedy do you really have an that's what that's where we are with testing out this unity. Executive theory? How far can you kick the the kind of unwritten rules of the constitution while others what a written rules of custom, but also like the the unwritten rules and procedures that kind of have They have guided all of this for so long. What happens when those things to stop being reckon eyes is valid. What do you do? well, I don't know, in the end, the path through our history- and this is on both sides of the of the Isle Democrats and Republicans of always not, s way, but they ve always tried to argue that court should not get any subpoena battles

did not get involved with this executive privilege claim reign in particular trumps latest trumps. Legal council's latest position, which I think came out in September of this year, is its duty. It basically takes an here's. The something we need to remember here, like this, is not brand new with Donald Trump right, like if you'd, if you can't stand Donald Trump. This is this: is his White House his administration is building on stuff. That previous president's are built on both Democrats and Republicans alive. There has been a real push, so basically, since Nixon too, to instil asthma, power into the presidency and the executive branch is possible, and this is a extreme version of that, but it still kind of following the same path, but what their, what their due

is more aggressive, then what previous administrations have done and their basically saying this, if you subpoena us the executive branch of you, the Congress Subpoena one of our people, write any of our people for any reason whatsoever. The president can say no not do not respond to subpoena, do not go before Congress do not hand over those documents on the prisoner ordering you to Congress can issue rid of contempt, refined the person in contempt. But that's it that's where it s, because the president can say well. This is an inter branch dispute between the legislative branch and the executive branch and because the the dish eerie can't be drafted. Shouldn't be drafted in to solve these disputes, that's all- it will is in an abridged dispute and in the Supreme Court he has no purview in deciding these cases.

And, when you have that, and that means that the Executive Board, has been removed from the over of law. It becomes above the law the law no longer applies to it and so what the president wants to do whatever the president directs. His or her agencies to do is by de facto legal. Just because the present and the executive branch or not subject to the laws of land, including rulings by the highest court in the United States that the latest argument is setting it up. For you I mean this is what the justice there was a great article in the washing imposed by Harry Lippman called the justice women's outlandish and arrogant position on congressional subpoenas, and this is from the article that set according to the Justice Department. There is no constitutional or statutory basis for congressional committee to try to enforce a subpoenas in the federal courts where the executive branch has decided not to do so so basically yeah they

said no, and so they said no and in all of this arose from an opinion regarding trumps tax returns. I believe yet sorted where the whole thing get started be worth it. Reset your tasty said now are not doing that and Hunger, civil were holding you in contempt and then the legal offers of legal counsel from the White House issued this opinion, and I mean it's a doozy is also saying like what are you guys gonna do? What can you do and that's that's the that's. The big question now well, and it makes you wonder what would have happened if Darrow ICES Bill had gone through, that makes subpoenas super enforceable rights because you know we ve seen it on again on both sides of the ILO, where one one plus Party will get mad and in vote something end, we'll come back to sing them later on right on the hind end

It is, but also you also can't help. But wonder like will like is, is a Republicans loyalty to Congress greater than the Republicans loyalty to the executive branch like they're right. It's, like you know in any restaurant there's tension between the weight staff in the kitchen staff but there are working at the same restaurant there all trying to do the same thing. We just get her. Quality, nourishing meals out to the patrons? Who are citizens like you and me Reiner, but there's still tension unit united in a fast enough for you, you burn these fries or something like that, but we benefit from that tension. We, the patrons of this front that we call America that's right. Well, why have they re everyone, discos behind the restaurant and smokes a joint body dumpster. You know? Maybe that would make our guard Congress our government hoard more efficiently, if, if the executive

and legislative branch and do judicial branch all got together and earned a dubious by the grease trap trade. Exactly I remember what my analogy was: was meant to insert vary, but we as fight, but we on meat width like this, that we are witnessing some historical stuff right now that the end is not normal at all, I mean like from Watergate stuff. They're, not even relating to impeachment proceedings under saying like this level, ignoring congressional subpoenas, maybe unprecedented, and if not in the car, This historical precedent we have is the Watergate scandal yeah, but I think congresses, one recourse to say: that's fine, that's fine, minutiae You just ignores we're going overhears Congress and we are during this this our ability to jail people to say now. Actually we can find you two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a day, and we will do it now that,

be the leverage that gets people actually comply with these subpoenas, but we'll find out, because if Congress has to actually pass a law, you that the president has veto power over that. Well, also, all sorts of other things have nothing to do with this. That Congress eases as leverage in our were negotiation tactics like hey, you want us to push through some of these appointees, or should we just keep stalling forever right all kinds of that stuff the table. But when you have a president comes out in January and says I don't mind stall. All you want, like the term acting because Give me more leeway, then, all of a sudden- that's not leverage and poor need anything else, no very curious to see what happens. This Mcgann case, probably nothing iron too. Will it be the crumbling of our democracy? Who knows will find on a few years?

If you want to know more about subpoenas, will just go? Look it up and if you get a subpoena yourself get a lawyer, don't be stupid and, since I said don't be stupid, friends is time for a listener mail This is about Obama's health care. I got a bunch of stuff about this. I didn't realize you made a prediction: oh yeah, yeah lessons have been sitting in the in the coffers of guys about fifteen months ago a sort of my journey, did the stuff. You should know. Archives have been on the study campaign about twelve to sixteen episodes a week. That's healthy why I'm writing, though, ten years ago, checkmate, a bull prediction and rumours, miss and truth behind Obama's healthcare plan episodes did media like for them, with the year. I think we did for you right, but this one was specifically about that absurd check.

I said call me in ten years: if there are no more private insurance companies is, that was one of the big knocks on it. It's all right. This is going, away with private insurance and I'll buy you a be chuckle agenda, we said, I'm on record in extent that to anyone out there now that statement moreover, gentleman's bed than illegal promise. However, That is more binding in my opinion. Nonetheless, I would like to congratulate you chuck, let's get where their verdict on the x, racial of that term and that promissory statement it could have been a pretty pricey lie. Nobody can things turned out differently? A million beers check every single one of our listeners would have written in and asked for. That is for Jack, summons nice go inject welcome to the club, we're glad you found us and even so that you like it so will do our best to keep it up for you and everybody else that he melted couple months. Although he's probably forgotten about us or as it is we ve done, Nepal save a man.

That's right! Well, if you want to get in touch with us like Jack, did you can go onto stuff? You should know that. Come chicken our social links there, you can also send a an email, rapid ups banked on the bottom and sent it off to of Podcast Heart radio dotcom study should know, is production. I heard radios how stuff works from what had cast my heart radio. I hurt radio apple, Every listen to your favorite shots. I'm so it which I am a man of the Elles. Hey there, I'm Bellamy Young and today I'm gonna talk about what I wore when I want to show for scandal. Welcome to what I went, the production of glamour and I heart radio, I'm your house

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