« Sword and Scale

Episode 182

2021-03-22 | 🔗

In December of 2000, 31-year-old real estate appraiser Mike Williams went missing while duck hunting on Lake Seminole in Jackson County, Florida. The initial belief was that Mike had drowned and that alligators had eaten his body. Seventeen years would go by before Florida law enforcement could prove that something even more horrifying and nefarious happened to Mike Williams.  

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Jordan scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences, listen: discretion is advised. Can the rest of my life. I will see my son couldn't come in the dark. True
hello once again welcome the season aid episode when eighty two of sorting scale a show their reveals that the worst masters are real. On today's episode, a near perfect murder plot is followed by the one variable of the crime. The murderer could not control the mothers love. This story has everything, love sex, betrayal and even now, is to sit back right now in place. Tell you a story
on the morning of December. Twenty fifth, two thousand fits six year old, Tallahassee woman, Cheryl Williams, drove to Jackson, County Florida and arrived at Lake seminal A massive reservoir in the North corner of Florida is border with Georgia, Lake Seminal is known for its exceptional fishing and duck hunting locations, but share and no intention of doing any fishing sitting on this particularly somber Christmas morning, instead Joe was visiting the final resting place. Thirty one year old Son, MIKE Williams, It was just days earlier that Cheryl received the heart breaking news from the Florida fish and Wildlife Commission, like Williams. Had gone missing. Wild duck, hang on lakes seminal and was pretty dead The belief was that MIKE
accidentally drowned, and so secretly beneath by alligators, making the recovery of his body unlikely. Surely arrived at Lake seminal to see where her son had perished. She noticed The air was considerably cold for Florida, colder than it had been in years. And with tears in her eyes Doubt of the large malevolent body of water that took child's life then without warning. The wind picked up like some cruel attempt to knock her over the lake breathed, a harsh and bitter cold, but it was no match for the fire that suddenly ignited inside of Cheryl, while standing at the lakes edge, an abrupt and
explained apprehension, overtook Cheryl, forcing verdict punch, your fists and she knew something was Quite right. She knew that MIKE was not EC seminal Maybe it was divine intervention, Maybe it was a mother's intuition regardless Cheryl New in her soul, that MIKE had not drowned and that he had not been eaten by alligators, It was at this moment, sure resolved herself. She everything and anything she could find out what had really happened.
To her son Sixteen years later, in the early morning of August fifth, twenty sixteen Another Tallahassee woman, forty six year old, Denise Winchester left her home. With a purse slung over her shoulder in a trap. Coffee Mugen Hand Dennis doktor front door and walk towards her suv, which was parked short distance away in her driveway most weekday mornings, Denise, was anticipating a routine commute to Florida State University, where she worked as an accountant Denise climb the newer suv and started the engine
she used for cell phone. The dial her sister as it were, typical for the two of them, the chat while to me strove to work, but bored Denise, a sister could answer the call something unthinkable happened the man who had been hiding in the nieces backseat since two a m. Revealed himself and climbed into her passenger seat this person Merrimac Hers, was streaming wholly. I did he say Mr never heard those cries for help, but Denise quickly realized who the man The passenger seat was, it was our, husband Forty seven year old, Brian an Chester, Denise and Brian had separated years earlier, but it was only recently that Denise filed for divorce bright.
Had reportedly tried to talk or out of it, but Denise held firm to our intent, and the marriage two thirty in the morning, he climbed into the back of her Suv armed with a gun waiting for her to get up to go to work. She did eventually get up and go to work in the car and when she realised that he was in the car, she screamed Ireland, Denise Winchester, met in great school friends from most of their lives they attended high. Poland College together both graduating from floor to state university and ninety. Ninety two after call they remain close, but their relationship didn't become romantic until much later. Two thousand one they officially began, and dating Brian Denise married in two thousand five in their merits. Started off. Well enough. The thing began to fall apart due to Brian's admitted infidelity
couple separated in twenty twelve in four years later in twenty sixteen Denise. Finally, filed for divorce, Brian was dead, spread to reconcile because then texted Denise endlessly pleading for her too. Take him back eventually, niece began, ignoring him only enraged bride. Climbed into the back of the nieces Suv with a hand, gun and waited for. Let it go to work, grimy s pretty hard, he might arise dry. These rights is right here on the evening star wars. Brian pressed a loaded gun into the nieces ribs and its did heard a drive. For nearly an hour. They drove
New Tallahassee, as Brian held his estranged wife at gunpoint, so then he was like. I had to do this because you won't answer my text or my call about lost everything a lot, and we were talking I should really with what are you saying you love me and if you get us all round, as you well know, one way towards this way away where he doing why are you doing is ours? I knew you were talking about, and this is not a wind you waiting for leave Denise was able to reason with Brian offer. That their marriage could still be saved and Brian relented dinner strove Brian to his truck before leaving her suv, he begged Denise.
Not to go to the police and report him for what he did the stun Denise Isley agreed, but ass, His brain was out of sight. She called the Leon County Sheriff's office who instructed her to come to their station and file a complaint. Brian was swiftly arrested and charged with kidnapping, which is a first we felony in Florida and if convicted cares, possible sense of life in prison, at Brian's, arraignment, Denise begged, the judge deny bail The steering wheel Charlotte Age swinging her feelings, believe me, I will never be the same
I will never one sees eat because I always see him arising, because I feel it my work, because only hear his voice greatly increasing at me Denise got her wish Brian remained in jail for over a year, while awaiting trial during each time. Denise in Brien's divorce was finalized, This rynch, I'm just gonna, say that he only wanted to talk to her. The only wanted to try to reconcile buddy PAN gun, and you should also know that tar and you containers of police but he says he only wants to talk, Brian maintained. He never had the intention of harming Denise those actions and the items in his possession suggests
otherwise, problem tobacco we hold about two or three. I am yes, sir, because the darkest right he waited for women, you're a backpack wedding. Yes, sir, you had a loaded. Yes, sir, you editor. No sir, I had a sheet but the sheet you were gonna use. The rabbi in Africa are absolutely not Brian altered Lee pleaded no contest to the charge of kidnapping and begged the court for Mercy Never ever Did I haven't even tensions of harming the niece? you're what I Nonetheless, I do know that she was hurt by my actions and again I am truly sorry at sentencing. Denise lobbied the court and asked for life in prison, citing that her life, was in danger. If brine was ever to be real, east. I start
stay with the memory. Jumping out of the bag, and I, each day. The gun shoved in my ribs will turn on my right side. China's leave, you will say what he has started, no matter what age is when he is release asking you to send its him to life in prison for the crimes he has committed, it comes down to my If there is then I am asking you please cheers Brian Winchester was sentenced to twenty years in prison for kidnapping and follow. His conviction, Lord along. Enforcement was glad to have him locked up, not only because he was guilty of kidnapping his now Ex wife Denise but also because he was suspected being involved in a nearly seventeen year old, missing person case you see morning knew a friend of his brain
and had been getting more and more worried that Denise knew about something that had gone missing over a decade before it tried to call her several times to make sure that they were still cool about that, despite their deteriorating relationship, but she had answered those calls. So he waited in the back for car then, gunpoint to talk about it, was missing. You may ask well was Denise Winchesters first husband, MIKE Williams, Jerry Michael Williams, was Denise, is first husband Leslie known as simply MIKE. He was born in nineteen. Sixty nine growing up in Brad
Val Florida, MIKE's parents raised him in a double wide trailer. You know it's hard to throw a dart anywhere in the Panhandle Florida and not had someone that grew up in a wide trailer. Or maybe a single line. In any case, rather than purchasing a house, MIKE's parents used their income. The send MIKE to North Ford, a christian high school where he actually excel serving as student council president and playing football. At each fifteen MIKE met fellow students. And his eventual wife Denise Merrill. Can these volumes and MIKE Williams knew each other from childhood David each other through junior high in high school and in college, and they maintained a long term relationship with the Winchesters Brian Winchester, his wife, Cathy Winchester, within Cathy Thomas Michael we also met Brian Winchester, remember him from, just a few minutes ago
barely they all, went to high school together and quickly became good friends MIKE, allow and high school together got to know each other very well. We re a good friends. Denise and my cry: school sweethearts, my wife, Cathy, our high school sweethearts, we all day in high school and then often on through college like it, classes at Fort State University, where he studied political science and urban planning graduated from office, you in ninety ninety two, alongside Denise Brian I am girlfriend at the time cat Thomas Michael, he's married and nineteen. Eighty four and maintained a close relationship with Brian and Cathy, who also got married. The foursome, often double dated, went to clubs asserts events, many vacation together. It's weird to think right now at this moment
you could be going out on double dates with your husband and your Future lover. At the same time, back You do you bill in nineteen. Ninety nine both couples in parents bright, Kathy had a son while the niece and MIKE had a daughter where did was totally ever went home. She was due shoes Dan. She wouldn't maybe later another year for mothers day. So she came yes, it s. I can enjoy this day to day with her. It was annoyed by of all new respect for our wife and women and children, were they girth her to bring a little child new life into the World Fund the birth of his daughter, MIKE William, completely dedicated himself to his family and worked hard to provide a more than adequate lifestyle for his wife a new born son. Esther, and this is why we got married and ninety ninety four and by all accounts they happy marriage, MIKE Williams, was a good husband. He was a good father
can. He was most certainly are good provider. Thirty one MIKE Williams, This considerably successful, making nearly two hundred thousand dollars a year as a Tallahassee real estate oppressor. When it came to managing work life with family life. Mike, was a machine known for working long days going home to have dinner with his family only to return to his office and work through the night Mike was also known to leave his office for short periods of time to do mundane tasks for Denise like picking up and delivering lunch or filling up her gas tank when she didn't feel like doing it herself amidst His demanding work schedule like remained the devoted husband, albeit an Annette She had had one for sure still my somehow made time for himself and often work before sunrise to go duck hunting a hobby he'd picked up in high school
Jerry Microwaves, because, as my Williams is an attitude, go out on a regular basis. On this your day, every day this Particular day was December, sixteenth, two thousand and coincidentally was MIKE's sixth wedding anniversary with Denise had planned a short vacation to celebrate and MIKE was expected home at noon, so they could pack together and leave, but noon came and went, and MIKE never came home. Naturally Denise became concerned, and she could her father who, in turn called MIKE's a friend Brian in Chester, with his own food Brian drove to Lake seminal. Where MIKE was known to frequently go duck hunting there. They
owned, MIKE's Ford, Bronco near a boat lauch, but otherwise as there was no sign of MIKE for the commission, as well as family members, and they start trying to figure out where he is The initial far worse is coming area is dumb, possibly was thrown out of war, but when they were all the fire the day following MIKE's disappearance. His boat was discovered. Seventy five yards away from the landing were the broncho was parked. Inside was all of my ex hunting equipment and the engine was left in the on position. Further suggested that MIKE was thrown overboard. The subsequent search of lakes seminal was extensive and methodical in it ten to Florida, efficient wildlife said Other agencies were brought into assessed, including a dive
from Montgomery Alabama and the Jackson County Sheriff's office. We did churches, and all women lower forest at a time and again When we come back and actually tat to a certain area, and we act RO fire from one state to another, and pole would pose First couple days, then after I think After the first night, we had a camera command and put I propose that we would model the bottom and innovation. Will the commission with the poles and everything is well, and there is nothing there? fire after a full. Peak of searching, still no other trace of MIKE Williams. In reality began to set in. The rescue efforts turned into a recovery operation to find my ex body. Dogs were brought in and boat teams were issued, probing poles, which were you
is to provide the bottom of the lake. The search My ex body lasted well into February over five, we ex after he had gone missing but still there was no sign of MIKE. Why I still regard mediation the missing persons no evidence of any fair play in any way shape or form the simply dying book accident. Then, six months after mice, disappearance small trace of him, was finally discovered. A local fishermen as well he can't alchemy inside it found the waiters gloating an area that we had been certain. The sheriff's office should investigator and he came over and he and I went out retreat the evidence The waiters had Fanny pact. There was strapped around the waistband with
fifteen Shotshell steel shot shales Our control, Hoddan The hunting license they found belong to MIKE Williams and small bit of evidence only further cemented everyone's assumption that MIKE had drowned in the lake, but question remained where exactly was his body? To explain why MIKE's body could not be found floor, fish and wildlife offered theory appeal They considered theory that somehow developed shortly after MIKE's disappearance, fish and calling to my face, this way out. I'm sorry, I don't like can tell him that there remain her son got by alligators distorted. Of law enforcement, otherwise known as the FDA. Lee concurred with Efficient wildlife in assume alligators had eaten MIKE
but neither organization considered the many problems with this theory. First, alligators do not typically feed and called temperatures in the dinner alligators spend their days basking in the sun to maintain body temperature and are not twisted in food at all Likewise, if our leaders did defy this rule and had in fact eaten MIKE, it is likely that they would consume a full grown man without leaving a piece of em behind MIKE's mother, Cheryl Williams, quickly realized that this didn't make any sense, and began a crusade to find out exactly what had happened to her son. I warn you this next Clip is heartbreaking for the next seventeen years. Men telephone calls mission portion signs
Compounded my nose into a book and head coastal social media, for me flange, we raised money and polar billboards. Heads in the tower has seen democratic and work turn shady news asking everyone to help me find MIKE street corners waiting. My pick signs with things like on them. My ministers, from being too close to their church, twenty six hundred letters to the governor of Florida, for him, but finding my son, Sheriff Williams, eventually learned the more than twenty six hundred letters she wrote to the governors office went unread. Instead forwarded to the floor, apartment of law enforcement, The same agency that determined MIKE was eaten by alligators. When asked
made her feel Cheryl tone rapporteur from the Tallahassee Democrat quote. They could not. Hurt me more if they had punched me in the face in theory was at EU is missing, he narrowly nicer, Lastly, Zooelogy investigation: yes, yes rolling over yes but the wars- yes, yes Eventually, Cheryl Williams convinced the FDA Ali too bandit their ridiculous, alligator theory and launch. The official investigation into its disappearance, then on December when he, if twenty seventeen almost too Kate softer MIKE's disappearance, the FDA Lee, how the Prescott,
it's to reveal some startling views oppression being here today, as we provide An update of the jury I call Williams Investigation eighteen years ago, MIKE Williams, disappear. Hunting or lakes seminal fear. The Georgia state line Then it was initially believed that might have drowned. A team of law enforcement professionals from the Jackson County Sheriff's office conducted an exhaustive search of the lake, but my body was never found. So here now I can tell you you know what happened MIKE Williams, he was murdered after receiving new information activities. I seen you it and special agents spent days can I think an extensive search at an undisclosed location. That search led to the recovery of human remains. An empty His crime laboratory, analysed and firm through dna analysis, human remains, are those of MIKE Williams? Further,
Basic analysis concluded that MIKE Williams was in fact, murder are focusing, to bring those responsible for his death to justice, and we, Stop till that is done, MIKE's body finally been found, and for Zack evidence confirmed that he had been murdered five months later elite county. Grand jury handed down a first degree, murder indictment, but the purse charged with the crime may surprise you. It was not Brian Winchester,. If you're a business owner whose hiring you probably lot of challenges when it comes to finding the right person for your role, there's either
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Seventeen years later, the Florida Department of LAW enforcement announced that they had found my ex body and forensic evidence proves that MIKE been murdered In order to solve this murder. Authorities had to go all the way back to nineteen. Ninety seven, when the ought to murder. Mike Williams began to take shape. Before MIKE's disappeared, sat lakes, seminal keenest after niece maintained a close relationship with Brian and care. He Winchester the foursome had been friends. Since high school and remain close well into their adult lives couples married the mid nineties and at Star was well, but in eighteen, ninety seven Brian Cathy's marriage began to fall part things were really good. I think we're on us by Tom. I was not a great husband At one point, I I found a no
in my first wife Cathy's purse, and basically, I came to realize Achieve- was cheating on me. After that happened. I began to look outside of my marriage. After learning that his wife, Cathy, had been cheating autumn, Brian began to look for his own affair. And found himself becoming attracted to his best friends, wife tonight Williams, my wife I gather in Geneva MIKE we started going out to bars and gone, serves and drinking and doing a lot of things that we didn't really do. Well. We were all in college, friends with Denise in middle school in high school, but I was never, you're until that point Brian and Denise started having an affair in October of ninety. Ninety seven It began as a one time drunken make out session at a rock concert and quickly developed into frequency. Grit meetings for sex
so I really fast. We started meeting in hotels, restarted meeting during the work. Nay, we started meeting whenever we had the opportunity of Microsoft. Word might work he really was a work are quite frankly, primarily go to her house with meet at Home Depot parking Lot or meet behind Keiser College, leave a vehicle and go to her house or go to my house. Started meeting very regularly and having sex very regularly eventually, Denise and Brien's affair became more than just meet ups for casual sacks, while still married. They began thinking of themselves as a couple extreme and gifts on holidays in writing, love letters to each other. My dear sweet, a normal, beautiful Ryan There are so many things I want to say to you so many things I want. First of all, I found a present for you for Christmas that I had already boss. I wanted you to have it
also, I remember that real frosty something you really wanted something for you. You like it. I love you more than ever to niece Brian Denise took several trips together, including a visit to New York City and then another to South Beach Florida. And yet another two Panama city, yes, Sir, well they're photographs Denise with my first wife, Cathy sexual nature, where was arrested animosity, in case you're, wondering Brian, was the one who took those photographs after No marital affair is complete without a threesome not that it makes it any better, but in all fairness, three sums: Werner, regular, thing for Brian Denise and Cathy. In fact, at this Kathy was unaware that Brian into knees considered themselves an item, she just had to be present during this big
in the Panama city. By now, you may be asking how, This was able to get away with this shit. A husband would develop some suspicion if their wife was frequently cheating, while also taking random vacations without em well MIKE. Rumour that hardworking go get her MIKE from the beginning of a story Well, as we know, he was a workaholic and it never been unusual for Brian into need to spend time together After all, they had been platonic friends since grade school still MIKE did eventually begin to suspect that something was going on MIKE. Knew. Something was that he didn't know rose up he's told me. He went to demean, said Johnny Marrow and was asking her concerned about money, cash that was disappearing from their accounts, and he
he didn't know she was having an affair- belongs to one arm and he was very concerned and had a conversation with Johnny Marrow about that your questioning, Denise his mother, about money missing from their bank accounts and apposite. The fair my could become even more suspicious when Denise stop having sex with him- and I took it- in November Bout Arkansas together. So we twenty hours in the car pattern. I heard a lot about how unhappy was you know, with the knees. He was getting angrier angrier about the fact that she wasn't having sex with him. I didn't want him having sex weather. She didn't want to have sex for number and weak charter, on each other alight, and he would check to see if I was having sex with cap in our check up on earth to see if she was out of sight Formica's we We consider ourselves a couple together, People do this stay married. I get it
all kinds of financial and child custody complications, but when you're so boyfriend is calling you to make sure that you're not having sex with your husband it's probably time. The call a divorce lawyer, If you don't mind me Tarantino doing this. For you, briefly, fast forward to the present at least the present of where story started, Working MIKE Williams, had been missing for three years during time play all day have a three way with your best friends, wife Brian. Operated from his wife, Cathy and eventually got divorce until three Prime Winchester and having Winchester or worse and now, Brian and Denise might we are now starting today Brian and Denise, began dating publicly this caught the attention of law enforcement
and their interest in the couple only intensified when Brian Denise got married in two thousand five their marriage, along with the efforts made by my mother, Cheryl Williams, finally led to law enforcement quietly reclassifying MIKE's disappearance, as us specious missing persons case change, and there was a suspicious missing person whose Basically we could, prove or had no information was a homicide. By taking the information in its total, you know just a lot of things. It in quite makes sense. There's a lot of things that we needed a rule out there. We really could not rule out as far as this Vienna any sort of action death before the Department of law enforcement began operating on the assumption the newly married couple Brian and Denise Winchester, were somehow responsible for MIKE's disappearance, unlikely, murder
the first things that the FDA Ali did was look at Denise and Brien's actions around the time of MIKE's disappearance, unfortunately, MIKE appeared in the year two thousand, which was before smartphones emails and text messaging took over everyone's lives when authority. Attempted to obtain phone records. They found it everything had already been purged where they were yeah, my insurance policies and life insurance information on my way, in what way is Indonesia, Malaysia paid out one point? Seventy five million dollars is riddled with that oh yeah, baby power. By now we're talking. And that one point, seventy five million dollars paid out in law If insurance was only part of equation: acting in social security and other benefits. Denise Williams actually received over two million dollars as a result.
MIKE's death. It's about time, but remember, this point. There was no body. It has been confirmed yet that MIKE was dead, so How is Denise able to collect this money It must have been such an aha moment for law enforcement when they recall at brine. Winchester made a living, as it know, Joe Insurance salesman. We will. I was Brian, their reached out to try to find out what it would take to get my declared dead. We found out the bride actually sold a million dollar insurance policy to MIKE just before his death I saw an insurance policy MIKE. Probably around when first got married, maybe in earlier, but it was a policy for two hundred fifty thousand dollars standing is mine. The second policy. Maybe
two years after its most four five hundred thousand dollars. I sold like eastern policy in the year, before his death, for a million dollars, So if you haven't been paying attention, less recap for ya the insurance money that Denise received was for a policy that was sold to her missing, by an alligator husband, by her now new husband, an Winchester that wasn't suspicious enough. There was also the way that Denise reacted to the efforts being made by MIKE's mother to find her son. Oh God, this is poor poor. Woman I have been trying to get in publicity from Irish disappears.
Written letters to the energy. In the tower she Democrat banging down into a story about life's disappears Finally, a reporter read my letters and he was doing a story about people who were missing locally entire area. He called major asked me if he could include MIKE. In those free law, I told him years when they came out in the newspaper. Can he called me on the phone she was living and Denise wasn't happy to see it an effort was still being made to find MIKE And she made her feelings known by confronting Cheryl about it we went to her ass. She was screaming me. She was mad about the article and she said our era.
Wanna hear my name again. Wanna. She, mice, picture in the paper again idle, one on any say you're doing about MIKE again. I have to get my life bite, Denise, his anger, Cheryl Williams, wasn't about to give up finding or sun Sudanese did. Only thing she could, which was to threaten sheriff. Then she said persist and trying to get and Colonel Omen investigation. You will lose anxiously my granddaughter. Did you ever see you again, unfortunately, for Denise her threat did not scourge Cheryl in fact spurred Cheryl on planting the suspicion in her mind that Denise knew what had happened to MIKE
She might ass. Well, have waived red flag in front of a bull, knew tat. She knew where he was. What happened? Killing Cheryl, he used to give up and continued her efforts to find MIKE then risk let's Denise, followed through on or threat and removed, my daughter from Cheryl life. Cheryl never saw her grand daughter again. Still. Cheryl did anything she could to maintain contact with their son. This daughter, by posting open video messages on social media. My granddaughter gear Ancillae today October. Sixteen point: fourteen is your daddy's forty per bird. I have not seen or heard from him since December. Forty two thousand two days before he disappeared,
all right. You were nineteen months in your daddy's girl, like love than towards you even though I haven't been able to help you in the last ten years. I love you more than mere words and heavy sigh Ancillae, always remember how much Grandmama lunch. You are in my heart forever at this police, and several of my family members were confident that brine and Denise were somehow involved with or even responsible for, MIKE's disappearance, but all the evidence against them was certain stand trial. Parliament of law enforcement investigators did not feel confident and making any arrests and again astrogation to MIKE's disappearance when cold day in twenty sixteen Denise, wild for divorce from Brian and Brian kidnapped her
building her at gunpoint in a desperate attempt to save the marriage, the media, the after escaping this kidnapping, Denise went to the Leon County Sheriff's office to report the incident, and for yes reasons. Police were happy to have Denise and one of their interview, rooms For some. Light years there is to live here. Investigators at the Leon County Sheriff's office used nieces kidnapping as an opportunity to target to me about her possible involvement with her husband's disappearance Hurry hey! where is there really is
all alike. I do why my life Ok, Why fire I hear I get. It when asked Denise, held firm to the theory that might drowned at Lake seminal Papa he's believed a niece knew more than she was telling a pressure honour, the investigator outright told Denise. They knew MIKE had not died. Ec Seminal, which was an ash It's true. I am perish or die
if at all it is on this case? prior you ain't you fellas gas. Here this morning. We would already save, throughout this view, tuned interrogation Denise, does all she can't sway the subject away from MIKE's disappearance and back towards her kidnapping. But the investigator keeps pushing. And reminds Denise that police are eventually going to be talking to Brian arrested Who is it Why.
What I am, I asked why I asked I wish to say you mean you know, my official right now, hours ass. Where is that again, Denise dodges the subject and attempts to keep the two. Big of conversation, honour kidnapping and allow.
Stitch effort. The investing it tries to play on the nieces emotions, hoping that Some bit of her actually cares about finding MIKE Why are you I mean this is so no as we know it, doesn't work, The investigator asks Denise Point blank. If she thinks Brian was responsible for MIKE's disappearance I do not, and I never had it. Never. There We are now and you re here. He had anything to do that as yet.
earth yours. The place where you you ask why after this interview? Brian, was swiftly arrested for kidnapping within week of his arrest Denise Stephen more suspicion on herself by attempting to get a message to Brian through bright its first wife, Cathy Denise asked me to get a message to Brian bad, I'm not talking to confront the news about what she asked you to do that week after the kidnapping. Yes, I did Did you call that conversation? Yes Denise his message? The brine was quote, I'm not talking end quote. What are you about? What the three the insurance policy, the whether we can only guess,
what Denise didn't know. Is that when she asked Cathy to deliver this message, happy was working with police as an informant enough to get Denise to outright admit, she was involved with MIKE's murder police had kept. We call Denise until it Kathy, had been subpoenaed and was going to be questioned about MIKE's disappearance, which wasn't really true Now, this subpoena here's my hear me: to talk to me Always just like. I know and What do you know?
call me He was mad at you, he told me he told me, why why This conversation Chinese never admits to anything, though her nonchalant reaction to potential information about our missing first husband we certainly suspect months later in December of twenty seventeen brow. In pleaded, no contest to kidnapping and Denise asked the court. Give him a life sentence, I am asking you to send. It seemed a life in prison for the crimes committed it comes down to my If there is, then I am asking you please when the niece was asking the judge for the harsh, possible sentence. You didn't know that
I had already cut a deal with prosecutors. Spilled the beans about MIKE's disappearance. Denise has staying where. She gives people do stuff her and she minimizes her guilt. Whatever it she's, unbelievably good ally, manipulating and things away, not just with me the other man s damages cheese. Very good this. Confession by Brian Winchester was part of the prophet. Payment made between himself and Leon County prosecutors a proper agreement, which is often referred to as Queen for a day is a written agreement between a prosecutor and a witness that allows the witness to give law enforcement information about an alleged crime while limiting the prosecutors ability to use information against them in
by providing a confession. Brine Winchester had immunity and could not be process for any thing. He said to law enforcement during that confession started, having an affair October. Thirteen Ninety ninety seven quite honestly was somewhere, continuing with the arrangement. As far as me niece, I wasn't looking up two I didn't want to get divorced, Basically Denise made it clear She would never get divorced primarily because of appearances. She is concerned about The way she appears to the world and she was concerned about getting not getting a divorce because of the appearance is all that, but also because she was scared of losing her daughter spectre of marriages Denise and Brian one to be together but neither one of them were eager.
Get divorced as there Fair continued. It became clear that the situation was unsustainable and couldn't live forever something had to give Denise was getting worried that thing. Blow the year two thousand the start, having conversations about MIKE had these debts should It ought to be on me and her, and she wanted in her mind a scenario where it wasn't a murmur. It was an accident there scenarios that were discussed between Mean Denise and at times it was scenarios with gaining Kazi ended started talking to see scenarios with MIKE,
what began as a marital affair, soon developed into plotting the murders of MIKE and Kathy and during the course of this plotting many option were considered the two main scenarios allowed him remember. Being discussed was once an area was we all went out on a boat before us. Michael Gaddafi. Overboard Chinese, and I found a way to safety. The other scenario was a scenario where MIKE and I went hunting and was an accident he didn't make safety. Considering the various ways that their spouses could end up dead Brian and knees settled on only murdering MIKE and making is death, but like a hunting, accident. If this plot and sinister enough brightened. Denise decided time, the murder in a way That would ensure the largest
pay out possible MIKE's life insurance policies, the plan MIKE. Old and the new policy was even withdraw the five hundred thousand dollars you keep their. Chinese anew, the timing of the five hundred thousand our policy and when it was supposed to be lapsing, it was agreed that that's what I was going to happen? Brian Denise agreed that MIKE had to be murdered before one of his three life insurance policies lapsed in late December. Two thousand so that month and set up a hunting trip with MIKE enticing him with a duck hunting site that Brian discovered at lake seminal. So I plan to take. MIKE Denise knew everything that was planned, but I got a call from MIKE.
The time to go it's very early in the morning Saturday morning, probably I briefly one morning say: the need to change your mamma. She doesn't go anymore. At some point after talk with her and she Basically said she again, Kofi, so we conversation, the weak, and so it was for the next Saturday about hesitation. Caused a delay in Denise and Brien's murder plot, but why Week later Denise, future husband to go doc hunting with his best friend, bride. Winchester ladies make up your mind, so in the very early morning of December, sixteenth two thousand MIKE Williams. ACT, hunting gear and left his home to meet up with Brian MIKE's
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finally made for his murder Denise Williams, now charge in his murder. Her around coming nearly eighteen years after his disappearance vat is. A friend turn has been Brian Winchester Bro, his silence in exchange for immunity claiming that of them plotted the whole thing. Denise Williams was charged with conspiracy to commit murder murder in the first degree accessory after the fact olive carried a possible life sentence, Denise, he did not guilty to all three charges and her trial began December of twenty seventeen. Not surprisingly, Denise Defence team was quick to warn the jury about brine, Winchesters confession and testimony fine, winchesters trial, in fact, he's never even been charged with murder
It's going to testify here as a witness, and there is an important part of that you haven't heard yet that I want that will be in evidence, and I want to tell you about it and ass. The fact that he is going to Three testifying under a grant of immunity, and what that means. In this particular case, the kind of immunity was given we will be able to testify as he pleases about is whether I fear that this day will be able to use the testimony of against him. But he's here's. A witness and he's gonna testify that Denise Williams helped him plan the murder Brian. Just as I did in fact testify. Denise Williams, murder trial and was doubtingly the prosecutions STAR witness What do you do now? with their thoughts. How you in Denise could be again. The other issue
Denise did not want divorced her. Is concerned with the divorce. Was she didn't want to share custody seriously with what my, but she still had a desire for us to be together which narrowed the options we wanted to be together, we weren't gonna. Let anything stop that Part of the prosecution strategy to convict Denise Williams was two point out. Them article nature in which Denise planned her husband's murder. Mike to lie at night at his office. One of the options was that, we could make it look as if there was a member glory of some sort of his office and that he got shot sometimes a robbery or something up at his office. Denise that idea, primarily because it would be an investigation If you remember from Brien's earlier confession, when
potential murder plots that Denise and Brian discussed was that both MIKE and his wife, Cathy, would be killed and they're dead would be stage to look like accidental drownings. Well, there is, Kathy was spared was because Brian didn't want a killer. Had no desire whatsoever for anything happened. Kathy. I didn't really emphasise that within these, because it was not for me to express affection the norm. Care about what happened Gabby, both sides- myself, I was never going to allow anything to happen to me mom are considering their many murderous options Brian and any settled on only murdering MIKE and staging his death to appear as a hunting exit Another scenario that we came up with was I can I going on a hunting trip together and there being an accident where both you and I
in the water he drowned, and I did not Denise like this idea because she better. I guess about herself, or we can feel better about ourselves. If there was a chance did He could make it out of it. You know army, I think there is even talk about. You know a little be up to guide not ass, it won't be a murderer. It'll, be an accident. It cannot screwed up thanks, but TAT was a scenario that she could live. I guess you know six or where you know it was kind of like you know. Well, if God wants this to happen, this is what's going to happen, and you know there would be a chance that he could get out of it. Don't you just love it. When people try to justify their own disgusting behaviour as guy plan. Unfortunately, for Denise Gods plan apparently also included allowing a jury to learn about her murderous behaviour.
As well as the disgusting and greedy motive that fuelled at behaviour a lot of things. They were kind of pressuring us for this to happen. When it did. One was my kid intended for the policy to five hundred thousand our policy to lapse. He was it's an undue continue it and so behind his back Denise pay one more. Accurate movement was quarterly or semi annual premium, but we kept a girl and one more print. Period and we knew we weren't gonna be able to keep it going perpetually that he would eventually see this money is going to have to check and account for about asking that why any more the life insurance policy, was in place. But time is running out so Denise and Brian put their murder plot into action. The plan with MIKE was that I would meet him at again station it's really didn't, have to do. Our lot powder then come up with an alibi for herself and make sure that MIKE Wind
and told him that we were gonna, go to her secret special spot do honey, We need to bring his waiters to make surely brought his waiter, because the belief was if you fall overboard with your waiters, you're gonna sank, really quick and drown. So make sure that you brought his waiters. So, madam and the gas station, followed him. Virtues awake. If you're not familiar with them. Waiters are basically waterproof. Overalls traditionally made from rubber hunters and fishermen typically wear them to stay dry, while waiting in shallow bodies of water, Since they are waterproof, they can become very heavy if water makes its way into a set of waiters Brien's and was to murder MIKE and make his death look like accidental drowning caused by might falling overboard while we're a set of waiters
to establish its own alibi Brian plan to leave lakes seminal after murdering MIKE and meet with his then father in law, for a plant hunting trip to make, work. Brine met MIKE very early in the morning, the sun, it come up when the two in part near the boat landing, dropped a motor Howard Canoe into lakes, seminal and pushed out water together, I wasn't back in about driving He was in the front on ours, very concerned about the time everything taken longer than what I anticipated, and I had to be back in town early now, time to meet my Father in law, her for my alibi trip to occur. And so we headed out. There was a deep area Remember exactly how I got him to stand out, but I don't know
something was wrong with a motor or the way in the boat was offer, something that basically stopped abode in got him too stand up and when he did, I pushed him water, it turns that Brien's plan wasn't very well researched. The idea that hunting waiters will cause a person to drown if they fall into a deep body of water, is actually a myth. While it is possible you're not real, any more likely to drown if you take a swim while wearing waiters, so He was in the water and he was struggling and them the boy was still running, and I just a little bit to get caught, for me, I'm so that he could reach I came to the vote, I didn't know it at the time, and I didn't know if he was trying to swim or I didn't know what was going on, but what I can
to find out or visually realized was. He was taken, the waiters in the jacket off, and that are you awake, had a lot of snags, a lot of dead trees that come up out of the water and there's a lot of stumps. They come up out of the water He swam stops held onto it. You pay out again- and I was Panic- and now this was like going well. I thought it was gonna go. I don't know what to do. He started the owl. Get out of that situation, and so I am not going to go ahead a limited, my gun and I'm just a man. One or two circles around, and I ended up closer tourism he was in the water
I shot him. Brian didn't leave MIKE's fate up to God, like Indonesia, said planned instead, Brian loaded, a gun and shot his I was at best friend in the head, MIKE died, instantly because Brian had shot him, any chance of making MIKE's death. Look like an accident was gone forever. So I turned, back around and came back to where he was- and I knew I couldn't leave it there, so I was gonna have to do something to cover this up. Down far under the water, and I grabbed all of em. My truck pseudo Angela Water, Let me tell you right now: ended up putting him in the back of my suburban and pushed the boat
I got into the water make it look like you know. His boat was out there. He had drowned or disappear. What you know get a lot of thought into what was going to happen after that. I was just packed us to getting out of that area and covering this up in an effort to minimize the spread of blood. Brian put my body and a dog create that stored. In the back of Brian struck began driving to his pre arranged alibi bad. Toward jealousy and I was driving there. I was realizing. I'm gonna make it in time, and I decided the best thing for me to do is to go back to my house and pretend that I'd overslept I drove home and was really hoping they can't. He was still asleep went into the house ass quietly ass. I could she would still asleep I crawled into the bed. And her family
the floor. I remember Darlin my father lawn Tellin, him apologizing, I'm so sorry I wish lab. I didn't want to wait Cathy up, obviously because I had voted driveway, but I wanted her to know. I was there to fund, I was an air, but not he got up and start ask me any questions about What happened was universally in or anything like that. After doing it, best to establish a makeshift alibi bright. Returned to his truck intent. Hiding MIKE's body. I went back out too the driveway to leave My driveway was angles. I was walking behind my truck and I saw out of the back tailgate blood. Was coming out of the back of my tailgate and onto the driveway. So I raised that off in was trying to figure out. I've been thinking on the way from like seven
ass. You want what was I going to do with him? I don't know when I decided, but you know Alton Way, I decided to had to be closed and I had to be quick It had to be obviously a location that you wouldn't be found, but I had no. Nothing to do this work, so I had to go to a store for censure, the store that I thought that was Walmart. About a shuttle boy. I tar So as you once, every murder use Walmart This is just as are open twenty four seven, Their everyday low prices on shovels and tarps after purchased said shovel and tarp Brian drove to a secluded, deaden road in northern Leon County, buried MIKE Williams body near small leg. That would be seventeen years before Brian returned to that location. Part of his immunity agreement stipulated
that he must lead. Police to mice remains when investigators unearthed. Those remains therefore Zack analysis was consistent with bright, confession. The plan was for his debt to occur, but it was not forget to occur in the way that it dear to me. The plan was for him to follow the water and for him to have a chance to survive. It Obviously that's not what happened, and I didn't want to tell the news that so We never had a conversation that was like didn't do according to plan, obvious from the circumstances that MIKE was gone. She assumed and when we talk about, the plan that we may she assumed. That was what had happened, Although she knew TAT her husband had been murdered. Dennis was unaware that Brian had shot make in the head and buried his body several miles away from lake seminal. This became a problem when teams couldn't find the body
he's an hour during concerned. But nothing else was being found out there. I was hoping that his waiters and jacket at all would be found to conduct confirmed that he drowned there and I wanted to keep the searchers in that, our area so I think there were similar to added that might use which was real, distinctive it at a weird looking bill on it. When I was there, another friend of mine through the water in that area, because I wanted to keep the people in that area. As I wanted, the waiters in the jacket can be found to confirm that, MIKE was wearing one under the water, the had that I am planted, was events. They found along with MIKE's waiters. Hunting license and these fines did exactly what Brian wanted them to do. Law enforcement along with floored efficient wildlife. Assume that MIKE tragically drowned, while
counting on lakes seminal still, Brian Denise had a problem their concern. Between she, and I then became well of his body is not bound. What's going to happen with the life insurance what we are looking to learn what she was gonna have to get a desert difficult issue by a judge through court. It took to me a mere seven months to procure a presumptive death certificate from a judge. That's it just seven months. This process normally takes about five years in Florida, a full year has passed since my appearance before Denise received one point: seven million dollars and life insurance payouts soon after I'm in Cathy separated alone to Mason Brian to live. Happily ever after as millionaires that seemingly got away with murder the world that we put on it was we had an agreement
She would never say anything about me and I would never say anything about her because we knew We felt like that as long as neither one of us taught that nobody would ever find out what happened, we decided enough time had passed from my staff We thought it was ok for us to gradually star Dating and we were still concerned now The law enforcement cited ass time passed and nothing happened. We became less and less concerned about it Denise and Brian got married and two thousand five any likely would have away with murder. For the efforts of MIKE's lovely mother, Cheryl Williams, views to give up on fire your son, things would come up in the media. We would see things online or any news Cheryl never gave up. Pushing things,
outcome of the nieces murder. Trial was largely dependent on whether or not the jury would believe Brian story. After all, what would stop him from blame? even if she had no involvement whatsoever Dennis. Defence team was quick to point this out. Painted Brian as a liar and a murderer that acted alone. What I think is not in question is that he did in fact shoot and kill MIKE Williams. Mention anything about her alleged participation in this murder until after he realized but he was facing a life sentence for kidnapping She went out for yourself. You, Sir We share your wires and yes, Sir The defence argued that brain had several motives to lie, one of which was to avoid ever being prosecuted for MIKE's murder. The problem with
This is that it actually wasn't in Brien's best interest to lie It was made explicitly clear to me five the five attorneys than I had helping me on my case. That if I decided to go forth and give a proper and give information not unlikely in this case that I absolutely positively needed to tell the truth, because if there was any element there was not true. Of what I came for whatever I said could be used against me as the terms of his immunity agreement. Brian was caught lying about any element of his confession. For subsequent testimony he could, and would be prosecutes id for MIKE Williams, murder and the sea. It did not hesitate to point this out. There are no longer merely situation
laws, sure The defence argued that Brian acted alone Denise had no part in or knowledge MIKE Williams. Murder. But if that were true, Why had Denise actively tried to stop Cheryl Williams pursuing an investigation into or Sun MIKE's disappearance going so far as to threaten Cheryl. If she didn't stop, why stop it. You'll, never see you around there. She is This is the fence. Team also argue that Brien's motives for lying included, getting revenge on Denise. Turning him into police and lobby
for a life sentence after the kidnapping incident you got the benefits that we talked about earlier, One more energy, seeing these Williams arrested locker, wow, that's not a bill, Revenge What do we do? same situation. You wanna know sir, I wouldn't want to put any money in this situation. She herself in this situation the prosecutor. Was quick to counter this argument. By pointing out that Brian had talked bout, nieces, involvement in planning, MIKE's murder well before he had even been arrested and therefore His confession could not have been something that he merely came up with, while sitting in jail. These events, Ryan wins. Yesterday, came revenge Doc
He says Stephen Menuhin, is a friend of brain winchesters and before being released, Brian with Menuhin to talk bout, Denise, the kidnapping and MIKE's murder He called me in on the morning of August. It was a frightening. And set a new low? talk to me you also. Was for him. Performing he said on the night on Thursday night another for the police came to his house and said she's gonna talk to police about what really happened to make Williams and made him very nervous, any really wanna talk about it and he gets calling Armand. She wouldn't answer. So we decided that the best way to talk to me too kidnapper,
it turns out. Brian's kidnapping of Denise has less to do with saving their marriage and me do with ensuring that a niece was staying, quiet about MIKE's murder, Brian Winchesters testimony is totally uncorroborated. There is, anything to back it up. No evidence, absolutely no proof that Denise Williams had anything to do without more than she even knew about once again. The defence argument was flawed. These clearly knew something which was evidenced by her attempt to get a message to Brian my brain was in jail and we but that Denise tried to tell brine that she was going to talk about MIKE's murder because of recorded phone conversation. She had with Brien's first wife cat, Thomas was going on it
two ways She asked why well, I mean I know that you know something Denny's, because you're like tell Bryan, I'm not Talkin that man that's why, because what they do, is they ve been lying to me as other sighing? Everybody has each other out is he was here it was done she's fine? and issues. Finally, The defence argued
there was no evidence that Denise had any influence on MIKE's purchasing of life insurance policies. There is no evidence that today, so I M sport is an aid in any of these discussions about the assurance and there's no evidence that she did anything to influence our husband might Tobias Insurance this hour, and on its own is ridiculous. As married couple: Denise would have likely had some discussion with MIKE about his life insurance as well I'm kind of influence on him about it The defence is right that there's no real evidence of this However, Denise was the sole beneficiary, and it was particularly suspicious how quickly she went about. Having might declared dead when his body had not yet even been found friends, family law always February. Nineteen days later she spied out,
Denise was the beneficiary and the only beneficiary and all the policies. I think I would characterize it as a bonus we wanted to be together and the thing that we always joke about was you know we were together with each other and has wanted to be. The money was just icing on the cake. That's so my sing and that's some cake holy shit. That's a kick. Make a diabetic three days of testimony, the prosecution gave their closing argument and reminded the jury that, although Denise, did not pull the trigger she, still possible for her husband's murder They must be treated crimes committed That's all.
Eighteen years after MIKE Williams, was murdered on December Fourteenth Twenty, eighteen this Williams fate was left in the hands of a jury. And after deliberating for only eight hours, they returned a verdict, say to hold a merciless Denise lay, usually the jury. Flanders files is count. One of the indictment it is guilty of conspiracy command, first gray, murder. As too to the jury Van defend. It is guilty of first murder Jerry Fund as follows is count three as indictment event. Is guilty of accessory. After the fact of cursory murder, Denise Williams was found guilty of all three charges against her. However, the accessory charge was diminished before sentencing for the law states that a person cannot be an accessory to the same murder. They committed acts.
And seeing my mother, Cheryl Williams. God bless her red impact statement to the court. Not only do Denise kill my son, she stole my granddaughter absolutely might reach for her entire life annually was rose, in a house with the murderers of her father while being denied their forefathers family lose no amount of personal time that will bring my back to me. I am asking you to do you smell Winchester up for the rest. Her life was no chance of parole. Kill the rest of my life. When I try to sleep at night, I will see my son coming to jump in like some alone in the dark. Nine friendly cooling.
Screaming for two Edward My son hurting guess, demands justice. Ten days, sentencing of Guinea's marrow Williams lunches. There's something about this poor women's voice that breaks my heart over and over again Dennis Williams was sentenced to life in prison for first degree murder, thirty years for conspiracy to commit murder in November. We have twenty twenty. Her attorneys successfully overturned the murder conviction. And the life sentence, but the consumer proceeded, commit. Murder conviction was upheld as was the thirty year sentence four Brian Winchester. He remains in prison on the kidnapping charge and will likely never be charged for my
murder These date is July. Thirtieth twenty thirty six, he will be sixty five years old, MIKE Williams, was murdered on the day of its sixth wedding anniversary at the top I'm MIKE knew that his marriage was in trouble. He had suspicions of an affair but he had no idea about the cold, reptile that was waiting to devour him. It wasn't an alligator. There was his wife the wife he was hopeful. He could patch things up with, as he planned trip for them. That would be a turning point. A revitalization of the commitments that were made to each other, on their wedding day, sadly that morning he went accounting and never came home instead
He found himself at the last few moments of his life lying entangled in bed. Dense Hydra beneath lake Surface wondering why his best friend I just shot him in the head. Seventeen years later, when police, recovered MIKE's remains in a shallow grave still wearing his wedding, ring Mike's murder was the ultimate betrayal teachers, harsh lesson about trust. Sometimes not even the closest people in our lives are worthy of it, but my story tells us something else. When I went into the lake told me life was not in legs criminal. We get a dry on getting getting guy alligators
Fine human bring come home. I beg fishing came to general criminal investigation then try my drowned and got eaten by alligators than there was no need for an investigation, no land and call me crazy. Tiger not invade Kim and can even more determined to fines, insurers, If I had not done what I did for seventeen years might suggest appearance. Have you never saw there is no man, you can tell him mother once you drew encourage how goes missing. I and my mother and I condemn one gun. True men- do Cheryl williams- God bless her like hell? find her son. And if MIKE's murder teaches us nothing. It reminds us
of what we already know there is nothing universe, like a mother's love for her child Does it for this episode of sword and scale? We hope you ve enjoyed it. Don't forget that you can get over a hundred hours of exclusive content at sword and scale dot com. Slash plus plans start at just five dollars a month, and they help us out a whole lot until next time
don't have a through some of their best friends, wife, Solomon Insurance policy and then planters murder and stay safe
my dear nearby gas, for about four years now. I never knew that. I wanted it to be true. Grind to a terrible return, remained great, sharp edges of the great job they feel like I'm having a conversation with a body rather than just listening there. Somebody reader Wikipedia aid trade other like a delightful I've, tried other crimes. I get educated in getting through longer that work at my factory job, where I put you get a car like Lego appreciate it. I want to show my love body behind.
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Transcript generated on 2021-04-18.