« Sword and Scale

Episode 38

2015-02-14
In 2013 an independent documentary began making its way through various film festivals. It was received with harsh criticism, outrage and even death threats by various groups, each of which was repulsed by the subject matter and the way it was presented. The name of this film was Are All Men Pedophiles? and once we heard about it we knew we had to speak to the creator of the film Jan-Willem Breure. Early on though we figured we'd need some serious help telling this story properly and responsibly, so we solicited the expertise of Dr. Michelle Elliott, founder of the UK non-profit Kidscape, who has been in the business of protecting children for over 25 years. We also contacted clinical psychologist and research scientist Dr. James Cantor, for his controversial and fascinating research on the mind of a pedophile (or peadophile). The combination of all of these ideas and points of view makes for an amazingly honest insight into a topic most would be happy to shy away from. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Hey. Did you know? There's a place ring it, although it is true krim headlines, five days a week called sorting scale daily and its hosted by me, Rain Williams, Maneater Friday, we break down all the craziest case is going on in the country in a round the globe. If you weren't notes going on before everyone talking about it subscriber sorted scale daily on Apple podcast, Spotify Sticker tune in or anywhere he was near podcast and stay safe, so in scale contains adult themes and violence. It is not intended for all audiences listener. Discretion is advised set up in his late in the evening.
Under the cumbersome revolt and ice cream go swimming. What are you? Drunk tat was all Ray and carefree and there was only one tell Two rotten drivers often turn When it came to me, I drive me off: gave me an erection was didn't, go unnoticed. On our return to read Hill another boy alone and Peter items room the discussion on the basis where you get Sundin removes some from my own naked on his bed. Major much masturbation took place two orgasm and this was an occurrence which, from then on at times a week haven't we Well.
Below and welcome to sword and scale episode. Thirty, eight a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real and the intro you heard from pedophilia victim Mark Fuelless from a BBC documentary entitled inside story the life of a pedophile where he describes being sexually abused as a child by Peter Right and a child protection experts and social care worker entrusted with the care of young boys like fuels. In this week's programme, we examined the controversial topic of pedophilia with documentary film maker John Willem Bertha, whose movie are all then pedophiles opens a can of worms that will try to sort through, with the help of Michel, Elliot author psychologist teacher and founder of KIDS Skift, a London based nonprofit group focused on children's safety. This episode may make you uncomfortable as you apply. The topics will discuss to your own thoughts and feelings with that's the point state. You tell me
what what the point was you were trying to make by making this movie? Ok, to sum up in one sentence: eighteenth yes, the number and by that you mean you mean what exactly I'll go by that I mean that in motion society we are taught and no me ass. I live in working society now, what's the parents that everything under eighteen is his taboo But then the more you think about it, the more ridiculous kind of sounds good. It's like say mor example. You have a girlfriend and you seventeen. I see seventeen and an. U turn eighteen team. She all of a sudden unattractive war. Is your relationship and out then disgusting in an endeavour to basic views. I think that people have of sexuality and
my documentary basically exploit these phenomena and and the strangeness behind it, and in doing that, I also nor other subjects, such as what pedophilia, if eighteen is just a number, that's one of the dead. Starting questions? How did I commend to I I was gonna have trouble tackling this topic, so I reached to an expert. My name is me Elliot I'm a psychologist, and I have worked in the field of preventing chow sexual abuse for about thirty to forty years, Can you tell me what your reaction was to the phrase? Eighteen is just a number, the eye here that in most of the world's most of the civilised world, eighteen is the age at which children are allowed to have sex without it being criminalized, Ashley true in more, to the world, and certainly in Europe, Austria, Germany, port.
Go ITALY. Its fourteen in France and Denmark and Greece its fifteen in the Netherlands, where this particular film from Norway. The children it sixteen. So I thought it was this thing that the gentleman who made the film was trying? portray that the entire world was looking at children. If at age eighteen they were suddenly. Available are legally in it ought to have sex. So it's to me, it was a great generality that he didn't explained very well, What do you think they're explore and documentary as how we actually got to The number of eighteen, you know: where did that magical number come from and basically It's basically based on biology. Where
like men on average orderlies boys than ever day, they complete puberty around eighteen and girls around first see so at that point the sexually theirs nothing more that can happen to them. That will make them more sexually mature. But here the kicker on average. If you look at, and a human society in all its existence than night five percent of the time, the average of pregnancy for I was thirteen. So then you know it. You get that! question, then the question arises a lot. You know if you look in history- and you know from the tenth century. All the way down to the start of your man, eighty and then then you know the question arises well, they were having babies at thirteen. So what's that was our current
Consent law at eighteen. I asked John Willem the obvious question, which is haven't. We evolve moved since primitive society haven't we advanced the eighteenth century. Yes, yes, indeed, we have involved, and then there is a good while a good, reason. I get logical reason why the age of consent, you know, has got up at some countries, its, I think, even as high as twenty or twenty one about you know an average eighteen and I if we have to do with education, and I fully agree on that point and I fully supported were in the past. Indeed, no woman were just seen had breeding machines, and today you know, because of education, the age of pregnancy has gone up that so the more education women got along the they stayed in school. The higher the age of pregnancy, because in the past would like ok,
born winking at babies. Ok, you can a baby to thirty. Have as many babies but now it now because of education and the importance of education today in society. Indeed, it's it's it's important and you: do not have a baby at thirteen ruined your education and You know: damn let you have negative consequences on average for the rest of your life in the film are all men. Pedophiles John Willem explains how biologically the different- axis have evolved to mature at different ages. He handed down to our inherent differences, but here's the kicker. It's actually that girls on average start think earlier about sex and usually have sex earlier boys doesn't mean that their more horny, but their design like that basically In the ideal society, you must actually think that boys Annette
should have also matured at sixteen. But we got push back two years and the reason for that is natural selection, they wanted men who were big and strong in order to become big and strong. You know you need more muscle and you need to grow, and that takes more time, so you need to grow bigger and those are those two extra years that we need it to reach puberty and the downside also of that is that the boys on average take more longer to mature our brains, like Annette The girl was sixteen has a mind of eighteen year old boy and that also why you know They said no data when there are so many clashes between sixteen year old girls and their minds are or their parents, because you know society treats them has sixteen year old boys when they are in fact more
you're. So indeed, there are differences between boys and girls, the generalizations that he made in town without a kind of backup were very interesting to me. For example, most girls are sexually mature at age. Sixteen I dont know what he means that by that, if he means that they are menstruating, that they have started to their bodies have said, how to change. That may be true. Surely mature to me, means being able to handle sex and all the implications of sex. For some people would most probably think that I stay in the documentary is dead and the most attractive age for females is actually Sixteen, because that's the it's one day, complete death, sure maturity and, where the most fertile and they start their sexual fertility peak, which starts and sixteen and an end somewhere around twenty two,
twenty one, and in that time period they produce the most eggs and can have children bear children, the easiest so that is basically biology and you know the death also. You know one of the things why who did the title? Is a question mark where's that ok, we have all this biological point is which are pointing us in another direction why trying to pretend that we are holier than thou and were automatically attracted to eighteen year olds when in I d most men and even see the difference between the seventeen or eighteen year old? I think physically, that's the case, but that I think that there is a day. It's between quality and there make rational decisions at that young age. I think that you can make a lot of poor decisions when you're sixteen, as opposed to having a little bit more maturity in place but death when it gets even freak here, because
that's when it gets even freak here, because sixteen year old females are actually at the same level of mental maturity, eighteen year old boys at eighteen? We actually consider boys to be men, so then that excuse kind of like washes away because woman not only mature, faster sexually but also psychologically, but I when I was eighteen, I was an idiot, so I the dust wiser like a city or do I spoke about than a than eight year old boy. But then the next question comes up. Ok, scratch, eighteen as being mentally mature when are immensely mature, because countries, you can buy a gun, you can buy alcohol, you can join the army and kill people at eighteen. Now, that is a good point, is important. Again, I think, there's a difference between
an eighteen year old having sex with a sixteen year old and a forty year old having sex with sixteen year old, there's just that mental immaturity difference the people ever stop becoming more mature. I think people keep learning in and becoming more mature their entire lives. I agree with you. I agree with you that totally light to come back on the party and sixteen year old thing indeed there is a difference, but you know four two to judge and to dismiss such a relationship is negative. Bias is not being objective I don't wanna go around promoting such relationships and, of course there are generation gap of culture and so on, but you know India and it really comes down to that. Both people want that down in the end, were we to judge this idea that just because both parties consent or even enjoy the sexual act treads a
very dangerous line, because, as Michel Elliot explains why our sexual creatures. From the moment we are born, I had funds one day when little you would go in and they would be one or two years all their hands would be inside the diapers and they We play with themselves and that will give them pleasure and showed do take pleasure from those simulations that to be done to them I somebody else. Holy wrong, but course what happens to the victim's, let's say or twelve year old girl and the person who has abused you haven't done it violently, has done it more gently. If you want to call any kind of abuse gentle so that child, is aroused the guilt that those victims feel when they try to deal with. What happened to them is greater. Because they have been sexually aroused, which is not there, It is a normal natural function. So
That is the context of that in no way could I ever feel that a child could be considered. Sure a young child under say the age of thirteen could ever be central and a child even over the age of thirteen who thinks he or she is consensual, really isn't as they don't understand. Must remember that in the end, it's all about being consensual, to give the most basic example is, for example, when I was eighteen I wanted to have sex with my fee. We'll teachers, in other words, twenty thirty. Forty. You know like legally could have gotten away with illegally. I probably would have done it, but you know that that actually the main thing that was that will stop me from doing it. Do you think that at that age, you had the the wherewithal the psychological wherewithal to handle sex with an adult? Eighty death. Does the tricky part? There was a very interesting study.
In England, where a group of women who had had sex with They were fourteen fifteen, sixteen or ask when they were in their late twenties. If this had been basically a positive experience or negative experience, seventy five percent said they wish hadn't happened. They were not ready for all of the implications that having a sexual relationship about breaking about getting into the relations. With the boy or girl or whoever they were having a sexual relationship with and all the permit. Patients of that are way beyond sixteen year old they'd have the maturity, the life experience to under and what getting involved in sexual relationships is, unless you define it s, just wham bam. Thank you, MA am and most I can't handle that either and certainly not sixteen.
The film brings up the fact that certain countries such as a and Saudi Arabia, do not even have age of consent laws. I asked John Willem. Why even bring this up? What point was he trying to make, because there are no age of consent, laws in Saudi Arabia and a man does not mean that they are very open minded about sex. Indeed, digits. It's that day, get it more based on a more primitive culture of thinking about sexual, Haiti which hasn't broke. Because now in Saudi Arabia, still also the only country in the world where women, and drive so indeed the earthly. I see that as something negative and Indeed, there are two countries, indeed a mom and Saudi, which no age of consent, and which is actually really shocking. If you think about it and then all the stuff tat can happen and then There are also some countries within the lowest is nine and then,
all the way up the twenty one and that is or for sexual for gaze. There are even other rules work. As to the age of consent, is actually usually higher, because people went to try to prevent gaze having sex at all costs. It seemed to me that mentioning these countries with no age of consent, laws in the film was almost being used as a way of proving that the age of consent is set arbitrarily by each country. But my question was in western society, aren't we a bit more advanced than many of these middle eastern countries, who still public stone. Women for adultery is tricky there. Always when you say like advanced, I know them for some people. United could sound in our almost like elitism. How absolutely I think we are more advanced, because if you have no age of consent at all You can take a nine year old and say that she is, or he is, actually really mature and therefore, let's have said
Let me tell you about an a conversation I had on a radio programme with and amen in England, and he was the british Council and was like Khamenei. He said, we had a case gone eleven year old girl had gone with one parents to Turkey Young man had taken her fancy and they had sex together. Taken her fancy and they had sex together and she was trying to run away to go and get married to him, because that with legal she could have got married to him at that age, and I express This was very wrong. The parents had been right to take the child into basically keeper under lock and key, so they could protect her at that point and he said our fellow to see in my country and in the particular countries he was talking about, is that if they can bleed, they can breed, and
the the culprit centre myself. Now our mouths just fell open and we thought well. That is the ultimate, isn't it if you can say that if a child reaches sexual much, Forty and a girl starts menstruating. Therefore, it's ok to have sex with her. Without any regard to what her ages. That's what those countries are saying, in fact they're saying even worse than that we can have sex with anybody. It is not a crime, and I think that is wrong and I think most intelligent right thinking. People who examined this would say no. There has to be some sort of age cut off so that you can the child from predatory abusers, whether their female and male abusers. One of the interesting aspects that this film explores is how men are often viewed differently by society. The other thing they also explore is there first sexism against men would
This resulted in the pedophilia failure. Do you feel that men are unjustly viewed as pedophiles think you know because of the pedophilia hysteria which started in the eighties and then bloomed up again a couple of years ago. I think it's really deeply affecting society were like. I read lots of mana of men about design you know even interview, demonstrated even don't talk to find his way like you know, dad met that no den scared to two to publicly play was dead daughters or to even look or to touch them in the wrong way because they might get you know we're looks or a negative reaction from society. Now. You know men are slowly back in the way, children and young people- and this is a serious public men- have always be more distance towards can't
comparison to women, safety and a pedophilia hysteria, and also the fact that male role models are very important for boys and girls when growing up. Basically, already in society very deep wounds have we made and on average, was a society is doing very little to address it. It just keeps on getting more extreme. Dream each year a big fan of this next sponsor. I use it every single day, I'm not kidding it's grub, ha If you haven't used grub up, you gotta give it a try: every pulse, what type of cuisine in your area comes right to your door. I mean better than that and the best
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Some yummy yummy and do something great for the kids just for our listeners. Grub is making this special offer right now. Use promo code sword Esther you o r d, new diners will get ten dollars off dean dollar or more order- that's pro- oh code sword for ten dollars off any order of fifteen dollars or more for new diners. So damn the grub hub app today and use promo code sword to enjoy the restaurants. You love delivered. When I first started working in this field, first of all, It was considered very, very rare, that a man whatever sexually abused, the child, that in a sexual abuse? Was so rare that it I'd be one in a million. I know there was one study that came out by Weinberg way back in the fifties and he
stated. That might be one case. It incestuous sexual abuse, pavilion at of the population amongst English speaking peoples, and so when I had my first case sexual abuse dealing with somebody who had been sexually abused, I thought this was extremely busy. But then I went on to find out that you know there are many who are petafiles, it's a very, very small percentage of men, in my mind as a professional and as a woman, I felt that well at least women don't sexually abused. So my great shock was when I was delivering a lecture. I think it was it in I asked a royal airforce group I talked about men who were abusers and and the implications for children and young and came up to me and he was had in it eyes, and he was very tall and was in his uniform, and he said I just one
you to know that it isn't only men who do this and he turned around me and he said my mother did it say anything and locked away. Before I could even say anything and made me think I felt well. Maybe I should explore the the river bit so on the media in England, I started to talk about that particular case and it was like opening the floodgates because all kinds of people contacted me who had an abuse by women and it opened my eyes and I started to talk about it
to professionals. I had a conference on it. I wrote a book about it and then I was attacked and I was attacked for even thinking about the idea that women could be sexual abusers. My firm belief- and it is based in fact indeed because of the cases that are coming forward- is that women can. Feed a files, and that in in a way when it's the mother said the mother with the paper, was sexually abused as a child. It is probably the worst kind of abuse that there is. It, sir, I would imagine its an incredible betrayal yeah. What tends to happen is we expect Women should be on rubbing
children and nurture them and to protect them from all those big bad men out there who, by the way, I dont think her all those big bad men out there. A very small percentage of men would harm a child, but you always except that, if what happens at the woman is going to protect the child, and when the woman is the predator, it turns everything side down. Motherhood and apple pie and all Warm loving family feelings and protection of Chile. Don't go out the window and you think how could say it seems it seems almost like a worse betrayal, with is an oxymoron, but it does seem just an awful thing that a woman with sexually abused There is at least one aspect of this topic that everyone can agree on this common sense? One of the things that really stuck out in my research is the prosecution of minors fortune.
Pornography. I think I think that is definitely one of the things that I would change because currently Even though the word child pornography is his known in all three the world there are. Very few people actually know what it means and did the debasing definition. Is allude or indecent behaviour of a minor and in America, but also in other powers, but mainly in America. There were several actually lots of cases. Luckily, some laws have been implemented to reduce that were minors. Charged with child pornography, before taking me pictures of themselves, may know them being locked up and was actually so extreme that one case, where was three girls at a slumber party? They took pictures of themselves in there pajama buttons and tops, and they were so charged with child pornography, because
wasn't that most people don't know is that child pornography does not actually require nudity. So any lewd behaviour, so If the corridor of did did the jury decides His lean behaviour, classified as child pornography, and then they get registered as a sex offender which will remain there for the rest of your life, and you have to try to explain it to other people, yeah. I know one case in. I think it was Massachusetts, where the boy had had sex. I think he was eighteen or nineteen. With his fifteen year old girlfriend the parents prosecuted he was put on the sex offenders register his next girlfriend. Ah the father looked on the x offenders register discovered his name and shot him dead and that- kind of over reaction is just crazy on
the other hand, the idea that was put forth in this film that help sex with children is a a sexual orientation like homosexuality that to me was just a little bit crazy. Think by now. You could tell that this movie has quite a few controversial ideas expressed in it, I asked John Willem? How is personally dealt with all the uclaf. Well, it's affected me personally, betting, expecting it going in and are going into making this documentary by the sitting twist. Was that people who I thought would not get angry DEC on angry and the people I thought we're going. Gonna get angry we're just up. Peaceful about it I think that was the ironic twist about it. You never know who you're really going to piss off
make a controversial document true, but yet the Lolita community, its air, japanese style of dressing were teenagers in young woman. Dress up right: girls, but you know they themselves Azure and I have somebody wearing a lolita, costume and money The posters and that really pissed off the leader community, because they thought tat I was suggesting that Had a failure and the later are linked with which I was not, but I do talk about love Khan. I'm in the documentary. But ironically, I don't even mention the word Lolita once in the documentary, but they got really pissed off. Death, threats and and end the. Festivals were also worth threaten the first three one to one or two air, my
commentary, and I think I was also reported to the australian the committee, where no one I know somebody just major threat, are no. If she went through with it so yeah threats you ve gotten for this yes ironic, we John Willem claims. He was only try to explain the leader subculture. Not demonizing Actually, my position is in explaining, happening culture in a better way set activity and in demonizing lolly can we know and the little falls under that I actually splendid, so that people can better understand and be less judge, mental about it, but despite the fact that you know in the document, I make no accusations against Lolita day. Not a lot older lolita people were like half of them. They were spread through the middle. There just went
girls and started a petition against me and so on. Are you familiar with the leader subculture in Japan? Yeah, yes, in which people who are actually young adult dressed up as if they are much younger schoolchildren course in Japan? The age of consent is thirteen. So it is one of the countries where I feel that it is. Way way to know. The reason I ask is because there is a lot of very vocal people in this lolita community that say that this subculture is non sexual. Do you agree with that Absolutely Kay where they can say whenever they would like to say that when you actually view what they're doing an you read about what they're doing they are acting as if they, are very young girls who are very interested in sex and
they ve ever read the book? They I realise that even using the name Lolita has sexual connotations, by the way in the book. The child was not the predator. It was the adult, but a lot of people in this country that I think we have it right here in the: U s the laws regarding this, because it seems like every I know every month or so there's a case of a schoolteacher female schoolteacher sleeping with a young boy usually all that young, usually around seventeen. Sixteen and rarely get prosecuted or they get a slap on the rest. Yet men seem get a much harsher punishment on average for the same sort of behaviour, and that drives me slightly wild it by. I have a whole collection at my Office of news. Paper headlines about teachers or
baby sit ears are women who have had sex and interesting way to put have had sex who have sexually abused a boy of thirteen, a girl of fourteen, and it's always are. Is always a situation where we say well, you know, boy was really grown up, looking, why you know he's thirteen, but his voice had chain changed and awe- and she was just being loving towards him. It is abuse, it is sexual abuse, and female abuser should be treated in exactly the same way as male abusers, and I always say to people reverse it in your head, just say that that was a thirteen year old and the abuser was a man? What think of that man and it always is terrible person where You know it was the teacher and she was twenty one, and the boy was fifteen
well. Maybe that's, ok, no, its not know it's never open John Willem doesn't think that the recent cases of female high school teachers having sex with their under age teenage students has anything to do with pedophilia at all, the viewers and explain what the actual definition of of pedophilia is. Pedophilia professional definition, which differed from the general definition, is one an adult or somebody of sixteen years of age is attracted to somebody. Who is in there Early puberty or below poverty. So you bastard so usually thirteen or younger and thirteen has already taken in the high thing, but that the professional definition to somebody who is pre, few bastard and sometimes early and then
Indeed, you know that we talk about all the high school scandals and stuff. Technically, that is not pedophilia, even though in the media at daylight, simplified does, the apple failure, not one of the main points that I make in the documentary because didn't is pew breast were the children are in. Teams It is not actually seen as pedophilia, but in To get back to your point- and there is indeed great- you know- hypocrisy where you know have a lack of male teacher and a female students, Rape and rape and rape gets used, but if its feet a teacher, then it's a love story or its very consensual, or they must have both wanted. So we are indeed there. There is a great hypocrisy in that one. I do think that that any body whose sexually abused as a child However, we decided to determine sexual abuse,
What is there? A man or woman should be treated in exactly the same. The trauma for the child is the same, and we can talk about what happens to boys were sexually abused by older women cause I've dealt with a lot of them in terms of We have a right to say that eighteen is the cut off age and absolutely the anybody who sexually abused as a child. Under the age of eighteen is an abuser while, yes, if child is very much younger. My difficulty is with those times when the boy is eighteen in the girl is fifteen or sixteen. I think we need to look at it carefully. To determine whether we should say that if there is more than three or four years in the age, difference that should be an issue or if you are twenty one under no circumstance,
should you be engaging with sex with anybody under the age of eighteen. Personally, with my children I wanted to lock them up until they were forty four. They ve never have sex with anybody. You know, and you have to realise that teenagers are sexual. They do to be protected from that, because they haven't got the material to be involved in any real sexual relations, for somebody with all the implications of it, but I personally feel that the United Kingdom and Norway and the Netherlands. In Switzerland. I've got it about right when they say aged sixteen. I think we can protect chilled then, and I would I would change from eighteen to sixteen if it worked I got the since the Doktor Elliot didn't like this film and I have to admit there were parts
film. That made me very uncomfortable. When I was listening to the film. A lot of it did make sense in the fact that boys and girls mature different ages. There were allotted generalities in the film, but a lot of it did make sense and we don't want to criminalize eighteen year old, we too are having sex with their sixteen year old girl other fifteen year old girlfriend, where it crosses, for me was the when he started to talk about people. Who are Peter files who are born that light, and he was talking about people who had attraction to children, much younger than sixteen who had attraction to babies and claim that they were born that way and he related to homosexuality, and I whoa hold on. This is the Peter file. Mantra this is how they justify their on their leaning towards children. They said
can't help it. I have worked in this field for years and I would say that this kind of behaviour, Peter failure, is I think that you learn PETE Ophelia comes from you, being abused. Pete Ophelia comes from things that happen continue in childhood. The other thing that he kept saying that disturb me was: he talked about the Peter failure hysteria. And he mentioned that men. Times that this was a hysteria towards Pieter Feith and it was almost ass if he was both supporters, maybe just a fine or protecting or say or using his arguments about age, eighteen, too say. Well, look let's just make sure that we understand in ancient times people had sex when it
twelve cause, they died at eight thirty- and this is a press and when they were all kinds of very garbled arguments without a whole lot of science behind them that seem to me. Did the conclusion that I actually did Ophelia. Isn't such a bad thing? There is a question that I had to ask this film maker. Are you attracted to seventeen year olds? definitely follow my skulk, my age retraction ranges from fifteen to sixty so six zero deaths on the old old gray, hair side. But the most just think thing, and I don't talk about myself in this documentary by one of the most interesting and I think ironic things about this document it. Actually I should be the last person to make a documentary about them. The failure, because ever since I was young, I had it for all the women
so that they didn't that is my personal history going into that. But on the other hand I do know, if I think about that, then you know that view, then also gives me a more objective view. To handle the subject where I don't really have a biased way. Like oh hey, let me make an excuse, so I can supposedly have sex with a seventeen year old. Now that was not my purpose. Now that It's something you ve been accused of. You been accused of being a pedophile online by several groups who, exactly I have just seen a random uniforms and message boards here and there. So I'll get It's it's Tom I haven't read older the forums and message board but lighted, the dynamic thing that I actually have a thing for all a woman. So in my
age of attraction range I tend to go more towards awards the mature people. He states in the film any talk about this in the interview to the way that he talks, a range of attraction and how, when boys mature, they start to be attracted to young girls. Obviously, girls that are there age may be slightly younger, but that in his mind. Never ceases. You, you are still attract. To that young age range your entire life. I think that that is an insult to most men. I think that men and women both grow up and they become attracted sexually to age mates to pee who are within their own circle with who have their interests who are lots in their minds and when you're saying that well most and are still sexually attracted to fifteen. Sixteen
seventeen year olds or even to thirteen year old, that that presupposes most men never grow up and that their infantile and backward man but wait a minute ridiculous, John Willem, whether he was afraid that is film would be used to justify the abuse. Of children understand what you mean most interesting things about about this documentary is How pedophiles react to it. Pedophiles did not like this. What are the reasons was actually expectation? You know they think you know the title: hey are all men pedophiles that it's a pro pedophilia film, but it is definitely not a pro pedophilia film and I'm very strict, were I say several times that sex before puberty is a no go in and dad in cultures has being so, you know the darkest and admit evil.
Payments and executions were preserved for those who abuse children, so that has always been. But now we have two indeed, you know distinguish between pedophilia and a failure and have a fairly as then the attraction to teenagers and as one of the things that the firm explosion. Ok, what is pedophilia and what is if we really are not so unhappy. On average, I'm not worried about deviate people using this film as an excuse for a devious behaviour, because they will have a hard time doing it, because I'm very consistent in India Extremes, indeed under no circumstances sex before puberty by any time after puberty. Ok, that depends if its consent, China, both people, wanted two consenting people want to have sex. Then, who are we to decide? You know what's wrong or not, and
that's what I think that I want to make very clear, and I've always had this mentality throughout and and not only for sex that exists between, for example, a seventeen year old a twenty year old, but also for you know, the elderly have sex now dead fine by me, but in society. You know. That's also found on that. Now. As soon as you know reaches your teenage, you can't talk about sex anymore, because your browser you can have set because you're supposedly to all these are all wrong ways of thinking and when it comes to consensual sex to each the wrong. And what do you think the amount of time that the film spends on distinction between pedophilia, inhabit failure. Oh, I am so glad you brought that up. I was watching the film listening
of abuse. I thought was last week that him a pitiful it is classic Peter file behaviour I think that are not calling him a pitiful. It is classic Peter file behaviour. We will we work categorize this and then after we ve categorize. This will figure out what work how we're going to justify what we're doing Let me give you an example away from him and then we can come back to it. I doubt with a pdf file who was called Tommo Carroll and he wrote a book called the radical case for Peter failure and I was on a programme of which he was interviewed and his condition she was that, well, you know really. You shouldn't have sex with children before they were four but you're, not babies or sexual and
the present her, who was interviewing him in the interviewing me said, work. How can you a baby is sexual. Because it s trusted genitals at you in it a smile, and you thought the watchful thinking this crude up. Thinking of these people to justify what they're doing is just breathtaking and four in the film for this man to go into such huge details about all those are those people who deal with who are infant Peter files and day in own. Under no circumstances that and then there's the next rage, which is Peter files and you're born like that, which is not true and then the harbour files which means are, but every called them sounded like some kind of a garden vegetables me. He was talking about little okay. We can have sex really what these people, these kids, because their thirty,
fourteen fifteen and really their sexual immature, and this is a justification and one of the ways that he certainly did that is well, was the girl who was presenting much of his ELM was obviously and a slightly older girl who was dressed up to look like an act like with make up and her dress and her voice ass if she were thirteen fourteen fifteen? so my basic feeling about the film it was just the for Peter failure. The fact that he kept saying here, failure. Hysteria say the fact that he kept relating Pieter Feith to homosexuals, which is an insult to homosexuals. The fact that he kept talking about this, orientation that people have towards young children. I think he was Peter files, the fine film wrapped up in pseudo science
dear that pedophilia isn't something you're born with it's something you learn is an idea that Doctor Elliot repeated again and again. It's with me- and I wanted to make sure that it was accurate, so I did a little research found, somebody that right, equally seems to disagree. I'm Doktor James. On it's in your scientists, deftly centre, predicament mental health in Toronto and diamond associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto Faculty of medicine. Doktor canter is pedophilia busy ethical or psychological. Yet and so far really says that it's a both. I hate to separate psychology too much from biology, because, of course, everything that we are psychologically is embedded more or less in the brain ass for the concept of Peter Phil. Again, the evidence so far does seem too just very very strongly that its brain phenomenon, even though we thought for the twentieth century that it was a phenomenon that resulted from a person's upbringing. There was never any
evidence or that it was religious, a side effect of again through most of the twentieth century. We just naturally assumed just about everything was the result of upbringing. But never any good evidence to suggest that that was true specifically for Peter failure, but doesn't trauma at an early age such as being sexually abused, effective development of the brain. It's very true that early trauma does affect the structure of the brain, but the kinds of things that we found her brain brains and non Peter, Philip Brain, so even though trauma does affect the brain itself We differ from the differences that we ve been able to contact between pitifully brains and non Peter, Philip brain. So we no trauma does affect the brain itself. It does not seem to effect the brain in the way that that affect brains differ from the typical brains. There some odd traits that pedophiles share in larger percentages as opposed to the general population. The original findings that my team and other teams identified that led us to the brain research were really subtle. Clue
that something was different to the brain structure itself. One of those important clues was begun rates of right, handedness impeded philosophers with non pedophilic men in the record, population somewhere between eight percent to ten percent of people are non right handed even left handed directly dexterous, but in Peter files. It was well over thirty percent which is in the brain, research terms and absolutely enormous difference? The only populations that your rights of non right handedness that high our populations, that very well acknowledged. Brain related phenomena such as enough, the schizophrenia or in autism said the only way that there could be that kind of an association with failure would be if bit affiliate itself had some association with the brain of the only that determines handedness in humans is the structure of the brain itself, specifically in which brain hemisphere is the more dominant one to do. You feel for sure that this is nature, as opposed to nurture. Ah again
I hesitate to say what it is that I'm sure about. I just kind of red the data and the data are what the data are if some housing, he was able to present an explanation for the current theory of findings that doesn't require biology or doesn't require brain structure, then so much the better, but the evidence that we have had so far really only explainable by saying that this, brain phenomenon is, this is just a brain phenomenon and it is nature. It is in fact, nature that people are born with this as a sexual preference and are in no more control of it then say: homosexuals have an attraction over their own gender isn't it a dangerous idea to set forward, but the idea. Is the idea and the evidence is the evidence. Now it isn't it the dangerous idea, but, of course dangerous ideas can be true. The only thing that's important really is the evidence itself and what the evidence suggests, because the evidence points there very strongly to be defiled, not having chosen that they were Peter Phillip. We need
to deal with it as a society on social policy level and of care providers. If we ignore it were really just putting a great deal of effort in the wrong direction. But the important message is that we need to set right very, very strongly Peter failure, which the sexual interest and all the evidence suggests that people do not like that. Do not choose their sexual interests. All the evidence suggests also that everybody continues to remain incomplete control of their actual behaviour, even though a person did not choose to be sexually attracted to children, a person still completely able to control whether or not their coming to risk harm to any particular child with the idea that pedophilia is a sexual attraction. You're born with something you don't learn and can't change similar. Other sexual preferences couldn't that lead to us library slope, an outcome we certainly do not want a great majority of the people were homophobic, also believed that homosexuality is a choice. So really it's mostly the opposite.
What the evidence is suggesting you, gay men, even more than lesbians. Other lesbian often experience the same thing. People come You realize their sexual interest and then choose how and whether to act on them, but the morbid come to understand that homosexuality is also a brain phenomenon. The more that we have recognised that people do deserve their basic civil rights on the side of Peter failure. We have similarity and I'd like to draw very thick black line separating in a plain vanilla, healthy homosexuality from from Peter failure. But the more we understand that it's, a brain phenomenon, the more we tend to recognize that we owed for civil rights, recognition to plain vanilla, sexuality, and the difference with Peter is that acting out Peter forming somebody else where acting
you know a person same sex sexual attractions does not risk harm to somebody else is you're editing. This episode story broke that was possible to ignore forty years. Kate Davenport was having lunch with his wife and three kids at spinnaker restaurant in sought. A grand inclusive resort on Southern Spain's costed? Also Davenport, who is a british Ex pat and also thought to be an amateur boxer, noticed that a man in the restaurant appear to be filming his daughter, who is around eight years old, with an Ipad according to witness, is this man, a German by the name of Sandro Robin was too pictures of various people in the restaurant, not just the girl but Davenport quickly became upset and grab
Ipad from scrolling who previous taken pictures, he found pictures of his daughter and as strolled further back. He found pornographic pictures of other children in a rage. He threw the Ipad on the ground and assaulted Rob meant. The whole thing was over in an instant Davenport than paid his bill and quickly left with his family but unfortunately the injuries Robin sustained in the attack were lethal. He died at hospital Although the victim had been arrested for child pornography just days earlier, Gavin turn now faces a minimum of ten to fifteen years in prison. Due to Spain's homicide laws Will this man be convicted of murder through his form of vigilante justice or The court's allow mitigating circumstances and say that he did a public service by ridding society of a pedophile only time will tell
Seven thirty you know, I will take your file like other terrible guide to our liking power and Jordan by five baked. It then joy ride where my girlfriend I accurate, bowed to traffic. Ah, yes, I really like that. Rankled cover up. They fell down like everyone disgusting, but are german banks
their work out. That's gonna! Do it for another episode of sword in scale. Thank you very much for joining us special thanks to all our guests. If you'd like to see the movie are all men pedophiles, you can order it at all: men pedophiles dot com and, if you feel so inclined to pick up, Michel Elliot's book entitled female sexual abuse of children will make to it from the show notes of this episode. If you're interested in Doktor James cancers work, you can check out his block at sex ology today, dot Org, if you like, to show good a facebook, twitter and Google plus type in the search box, sword and scale, find our pages like us and contribute tell us what you like about the shell. What you dont like! Let us know. Of course, you can always call our hotline and you might find yourself the next episode of your favorite podcast cause at nine five, four, eight nine six, eight five for and if your international put a plus one in front of that, you can also use Skype. Just look first there under the username sword and scale and have set us a million times before, but the best way we can help us is by telling all of your friends about the show and how much you love it. So we can grow and we can stay here producing shows for you week after week, which brings me to the fact that we won't be here next week. I'm sorry! But if you heard my voice during this episode, you could probably tell that I'm a little bit sick and I want to take away to get over that and work on some news stories. In the meantime, there is a back catalogue of episodes to go through thirty eight. Now it's absolutely mind boggling to me, with their there, for you to enjoy and there'll be a whole lot more coming. This year makes again and stay safe. Keep your kid safe and will see next week
need. Something to listen to you. Next will check This other show from cast media
I am Jake the tool, I'm Jamie, be me, and we are your house of certainly sucking reach. Europe showed we're gonna, bring you a new stock in case covering the ins and outs of each stalker, their victim and there's a knife. She hated me. So might she found my stepmother blinded her and then was caught, making a plan to attack me with my stepmother? He shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a space suit. He looks at me and he goes you look like just grab and lily from the fifth element hasn't. He looks at me very intense, leading US stock. You will hear what the commissioner will do. Anything or not. We carry about Comstock, laudably predator stock in me for forty four years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom a lot more than he had been one of those random messages on my idea. It was like I'm coming and I'll see you on this day. I was sick and responding to, and then it was like a verification of. Like I said all of a sudden, I hear a knock at the door. I opened the door and there they exploit something element standing in front of me with a backpack, and he looked at me and he said a new era kind of panic because it isn't Larry. He followed me my workplace and he grabbed me put men the door and with thy Unblock they unblock may why'd. He brought me: I'm dragged through a time, Jamie, baby, strictly stocking mares. On January we subscribe one apple podcast spot of my weary.
Like my god, this person will stop texting me. Stop calling me he'd, showing everywhere, then, that's when it's like you're, like oh shit,.
Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.