Hey did you know, there's a place. We can get all the way to true crime headlines five days a week, it's called sword and scale daily, and it's hosted by me Ryan Williams. Money. Through Friday, we break down all the crazy case is going on in the country and around the globe, if you What's going on before everyone talking about it, subscriber sort, unskilled daily on Apple podcast, Spotify Stitches tune in or anywhere he was near podcast and stay safe sorted, contains adult themes and violence. It is not indeed for all audiences listener discretion All rattle criminal law defines

aside, as the killing of a person by another, and it defines a person as a human being who had been born and was alive at the time of the homicidal act. Colorado LAW further specifies in the cases people versus wage L Agee. That person does not include a fetus even if the child is born following the injury which ultimately results in it, death come to sword in scale episode. Forty four that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

Can this episode we're gonna do something we don't normally do your sword. The skiff we're gonna take out a case. That's been in the national spotlight for several weeks now the story of Michel Wilkins and now laid a case mired in political controversy and public outrage

and while we're at it, will take a look at the history of fetal homicide in the United States, a topic which you might want to steer clear of say if you happen to be pregnant before we delve into this week's program, I've noticed that a lot of you tend to shut off the podcast as soon as the outflow music starts playing. So I'm gonna to do this up front this time. Keep your favorite podcast on the air, go to Facebook, dot, com, slash, sword and scale right now, and click on the link in the top left. That reads: invite your friends to like this page and then invite all of your friends and family. Don't worry! They won't think you're, weird, be surprised how many moms love murder stories if you ve already done this add on over to Itunes and leave us a good review, Marty done that go on your favorite for I'm ready for chat or whatever,

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Wednesday March Eighteenth twenty fifteen to thirty the city of long, not Colorado, emergency communications receive and nine one. One call from sixteen twenty green place One might nine. When one address of your emergency one twenty one, I can't I can't understand the straight green place: green, like the color, female later identified as Michel Wilkins calls and state

She is seven months pregnant and has been stabbed in the stomach here. What you tell me what happened? Who caught yeah now hold on hold on power, look at you, Jack He got you out I'm pregnant He got you in your stomach What does this suffix name hang on. Ok, I'm in here I know you

the sound of fellows male gambling, everybody, you ok there I know you stay with me. Ok, I got everybody coming to help you you stay on the phone, don't hang up twenty one or two twenty one thousand, two hundred and twelve one thousand six hundred and twenty greenplace one thousand six hundred and twenty green plants for a stabbing that page like in one thousand three hundred and twenty one thousand four hundred and forty three Can you grab a tower anything you can get in your hands and put it on your wound and press. How long are you seven months. Ok, are you alone in the house, May I just got a slave. You stay with me, you're downstairs in the basement, and are you alone? Thank you

Without doubt, why don't you go to sleep? Ok, he's down the found with me. Can you tell me, did you have any other weapons? As I said, the knight Burka she broke, a glass did you study with a broken glass? Also, her behind you, but think real hard and tell me who it is that the DAS tell me the person's name Real hide, ok, don't go to sleep with me. Tell me who would have I know you don't know heavy Did she breaking the house tat? She led her into the house. Ok

your adventure there and he hears the owner of the house. Twenty six year old, Michel Wilkins had been responding to a craigslist, add for used baby, Ok, everybody your way. Ok can you tell your last name? For me, in the call. You can hear Michel struggling to stay, conscious, struggling to stay alive he had a cow There are no way. Ok, the town and put it on your wound. How many once you have Ah, more than one ok how

that is underway. Ok, with anyone else in the house. When that happened, no gift you when her we're having a yeah. Trying to leave, our dialogue, server Can you tell me what apartment? Never you and the shell one twenty. Or well. No way? he's dead I'll be ok, don't go to sleep. We got everybody in the world are trying to find you now her ring

that's are they really do are now cannot get to it. How can you help down hangers. Are they in the house? Yeah downstairs here here ok I'll! Let you go ass part of the end where she, It's so excited that help is. Finally there apart got me a bit: that's when she realizes she now has a chance to live. She was, Help me help me very. Very faint muffled never seem somewhat relieved when somebody somebody's face from the police showing up on when I walked in, I actually had looked at her for just a short moment, and I actually had to walk out first second cause- I I just got my head was enabled wraparound She Lake IDA hold my aunt she covered from head in blood,

so for some gloves on elder hand and kind of through where her injuries, war and stuff like that and trying to figure out exactly what we have even long. Maud police commander, Jeff's detour trouble containing his emotions. After seeing this horror, dost or did an incredible job today, He got here with limited information, heard her for help and they went in and founder got her out of the house. More police officers, arrived at sixteen thirty green place and noted it was split level home? They walked into the basement area and solve. Large amount of blood on the floor and what appeared to be a trail of blood, leading from the northeast bedroom into a utility room continue. Into the bedroom officers Michel lying on a bed with a large amount of blood on her and around the bed on the floor, and just under the bed, Michel was lying on officers noted a small knife, the three inch blade she was in and out of consciousness and could barely speak,

There's asked her who stabbed her. He responded, I know her only is DE officers working turned from the shawls life ass. She went in, and out of consciousness try to keep talking by asking questions, one of the questions asked was what was she doing at sea in twenty green place. She answered that he had been responding to a craigslist, add for baby close officer. What did your cell phone and found a text from someone named now giving the address of sixteen twenty green place to know or d, later identified as the Knell Patrice Lane. Michel was trance it's a long, not United Hospital at that point, is unable to answer any further questions at the hospital. Would find out that Michel's baby had been ripped from her admin taken. They say they are guardedly optimistic about her recovery and are thankful for the many expression of sympathy they receive from Iraq.

The world from people who don't even know, Michel here, you can see to the left here. The command posted pulled up not too long ago. Just beyond that, that's the crimes investigation unit. It's got the big word police on the side of it. The house itself instead in those trees that you see that are all lit up, the house is surrounded by crime scene, taken investigators just showed up here and got there. Toward about thirty minutes ago. They are now, inside processing the crime scene after machine had been taken of the hospital police officers remaining at the home, observed blood leading into the utility room and then into a washing machine. Looking at the washing machine it appeared. Several bloody Taos were still in the machine. Of a wash cycle. Blood was also noted tracked from the basement to the upstairs bathroom, also plain view on the kitchen counter was a bill addressed to denote lane MR surmise that this tunnel was the person that the victim referred to as DE while officers were, go on the scene. A resident the home arrived. He identified himself

as David Ridley and stated that his wife dunno lived at the address with their two teenage daughter. David stated that he left for work earlier in the day and arrived at his residence at about two fifteen p m, we planned on taking too now to a prenatal, checkup appointment when he arrived Tom and started walking towards the basement. She walked around a corner covered in blood. He told David He had just miscarried and the baby was in the bathtub, Upstairs David, stairs to the bathroom and found the small baby lying in the bathtub, the baby, slightly, unrolled it over to hear and see it. Take a gasping breath David, wrapped up be in a town and ran back downstairs. He told you know, get ready to go to the hospital as dinner. David went to David Car silver. Two thousand eight Ford Torres dunno grab its cellphone from his truck saying she was gonna, call nine when one David heard Dunno Talking to someone on the phone and assumed it was a city of long on emergency communications did now then Place

phone back into his truck and they travelled not United Hospital, the same Hospital Michel would later be admitted to when they arise are there David, escorted to know to the emergency, holding the baby. He then, if the hospital and return home to pick up a step, daughters arriving home from school, denounced but page which is still live, contains several pictures in which she posts with her hand over her abdomen. As if she's pregnant a picture, February twenty fourteen shows to know a slightly protruded abdomen, a baby Reggie three: at the bump dot com. Does it do of November fourteenth. Twenty fourteen denounced Teenage daughters were questioned by police and one of them said she had been shown an ultra sound of the baby. It was that the baby boy did no claim to be carrying in December twenty fourteen, a month after the baby Stu. One of the daughters also stated that Nell was very petite and you could not tell she was pregnant. The question

here is how long was dunno lying about her pregnancy and what did her family make of it after the babies they came and went on November, Fourteenth dunno was stolen. Aiming to be pregnant. A month later than January came and went in February. This incident happened on March Eighteenth, twenty fifteen dunno was claiming to be pregnant for over a year was referred. We humoring her did they see the madness setting in I now lane who goes by Daniel Ridley on Facebook showed off her proud baby bump throughout last year. She also displayed clothes laid out for a baby boy. She

a friend she was due in December, but the last post on our page related to being pregnant, was in November when she went to a yogi class hoping to induce Labour bring tells us nobody heard anything else about the baby. After that, post we tried to talk to lanes. Fan in public, so they went on till I would like to ask you about your daughter: why would do Nels husband be taking her to a prenatal, cup four months after her expected due date a year and one month after she announced her pregnancy and it was The clear this is the biggest mystery of all Did every one in the family keep quiet, not knowing how to approach this obvious charade and by doing so help this tragic,

occur. Detective MC managed from Border County spoke to Doktor Brion S, Nelson from Long Mont, United Hospital who treated Michel, you stated, that the incision honour abdomen was well performed and that the person did the incision would have to have research the subject of the syrian births in book, or online to achieve this level of accuracy state. Could show that Dunno Lane held a certified licence as nurses aid which, spired in two thousand twelve. She was working assistant manager at a couple. He called once upon a child which, by and sells used children's clothing, LISA reaching out to the public to see if any else responded to her Craigslist ad.

There's one more horrible detail about this story that you should know, dunno Lane arrived at the hospital with David carrying Michel Wilkins seven month old baby. Crying and saying it's all my fault: I am so sorry she told staff she had been pregnant, but Miss carried her child and apologized repeatedly the baby completely clean and washed. And still had the umbilical cord attached, but to know was covered in blood. Eighteen. Old, Abbe Johnson, an internet hospital said that when Michel arrived, she had blood pouring my stomach pleaded for help. And was concerned about the safety of her baby, apparently not knowing that her baby, was no longer in sight of her. She had horrific injuries been stabbed in the neck with broken glass and thence

I sat in the stomach with a blade. She was in quote a terrible state with her guts hanging out. She had been bleeding really badly. Abbe said the baby did it I would never think such a horrific occurrence. Whatever happened like this is almost like a horror movie. Who would ever think that something like this would actually occur in real life? the call early in the morning light. I just can't believe this. The effect on our family. Once again, Michel's cousin Tony Wilkins spoke to reporters and revealed that this was the second time their family had been subjected to a high profile tragedy. Ninety seven, his niece for Europe Megan Dale was killed in. Of Colorado's, most infamous drunk driving crashes, Timothy Blackwell

you're drunk driver who was driving a radically was being too By a man who was on the phone with nine when one begging them for help in guinea person off the road before you hurt someone, but how, didn't come soon enough. Blackwell got a life sentence for his crimes. And the community showed their support in droves. Now Tony for their support once again, just pray in and kind of reflect No what's really important EU, and were you really stand old things alive because of the nature of the crime Boulder county? Does Attorney Stanley, Garnet had quite a predicament on his hands and some questions to ask. The first one is what was the sequence of events that led to the death of the baby. The second is medically was a baby alive when it was taken from the body of the mother and for how long and third, what was the cause of death, for the baby now under Colorado law, essentially

there's no way. Murder charges can be brought if it's not establish that the fetus lived as a child outside the body of the mother for some period of time. Adding insult to it. Three literally Colorado law prevented justice for the unborn baby igniting fire storm of controversy from the anti abortion movement and other supporters in Le Monde protesters took to this treats to try to pressure police into charging the suspect with murder they held plaque with messages such as murder is murder and justice for Michel. The central issue here is that the feed had to live outside of Michel's body for a certain amount, time with that time is, is vague and the law, but David statement worries, he turned the baby over and saw it take a gasping breath. May establish that the fetus was allowed for long enough. Meanwhile, Everyone awaited the medical examiners report. One of the issues that we will need to evaluate in

action where that is that the medical information we get from the autopsy, but Colorado does have another law that was updated by the state legislature in twenty thirteen that deals with crimes and pregnant women and establishes penalty between tend to thirty, two years for unlawful Terminating a pregnancy. However, the charge would not be murder, something many supporters demanded there is it. One other option for prosecutors. There is some vagueness built into Colorado's murder laws which could open it or into making new law out of this case. If I had a prosecutor at the very tempted to file an extreme indifference, first gray, murder charge. After all, this is intentional conduct, and while there is a two thousand nine court of Appeals case about reckless conduct, I think this would be a press. Making a case in the end. There would be no murder charge for the dead foetus, but that didn't prevent bolder. Strict attorney stand Garnett from throwing the book. I dunno laid the charge

my office filed about an hour ago, which we believe are supported by the law and the admit, no evidence can be proven in court beyond. Reasonable doubt to a jury are as follows. First is criminal attempt to commit murder in the first degree, this is a class two fellow and it has a possible sentence of up to forty eight years in the Department of Corrections, the set It is a crime of violence. In answer on that charge, which is tied to the use of it, We weapon in the attempt to murder the victim, in this case there is a crime of violence in cancer, which is also tied to the first attempt at first for murder charge related. The fact that serious bodily injury was inflicted in the course of attempting to murder the victim in this case count for its assaulting the first degree. This is a class three

felony obliges the use of a knife and with a possible sense of up to thirty two years in the Colorado Department of corrections. The fifth, out, is, in the first degree, also alleging use of a knife and they also is a classroom felony with a possible sentence of up to thirty two years in the Colorado Department of Corrections, the six count is a salt. In the second degree, alleging the use of a deadly weapon, a bludgeon, it also has a part simple sentence of up to sixteen years in the Department of Corrections, the seventh count is a salt, in the second degree alleging strangulation. It also has a possible sense of active sixteen years in the Colorado Department of Corrections, both at the second to resolve, counts are classed for.

Felonies under Colorado law in the eighth count is unlawful termination of pregnancy and the first degree. It is a class three felony with a possible sentence of up to thirty two. Years now is a few things that are very important for me to say about these charges. First of all, let me stress that you have to remember that the defendant has only been charged with crimes. She has not been convicted in a court of law. She is presumed innocent unless and until she is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt by a jury of her peers, as with anyone accused of a crime in our justice system. She deserves a fair and impartial, while some of you know that from the coroner who issued a press release a couple hours ago, I learned at the autopsy conducted by an expert, pathologists, Doktor Leon Kelly

I find any medical or physical evidence that the baby Aurora ever took a breath after being taken from her mother in doctrine, My opinion, this was not alive birth according to Doktor Kelly, and I quote the autopsy investigation failed to provide evidence that a child exhibited signs of life outside of the womb now. I know that it has been widely reported in the press based on an initial police report, from a statement taken from a witness immediately after the events of March Eighteenth that the witness observed a warrant taking a gasping breath how upon a more thorough examination of this witnessed by the long on police department, the witness Clare Five aurora was still in her mouth was open, but she was not breathing which is consistent. With the medical evidence from the autopsy, with Doktor Kelly's opinion and with the other evidence, in the case

we do not know the exact cause of death of aurora as there are no other injuries or other medical issue to explain it, however, test. Results are pending in a final autopsy report will be issued by the Border county corner in approximately six to eight weeks and after the victims in the victim's family have had a chance to talk to the corner. That report We made public despite the nine charges and the likelihood That's no land will never see the outside of a prison in her natural born life. The tragic behind this case, still caused an uproar in the public with various groups pressuring the yea to bring murder charges for the death of Aurora the baby? in this case is now the main focus of many antiabortion groups trying to change the Duff vision of a person under Colorado law. A change which would have much broader ramifications than this case alone. Now I understand that many people in the community, in Heaven,

I've heard from a lot of them would like me to have filed homicide charges however, that is not possible, Colorado law without proof of alive birth, a prosecutor cannot I'll murder charges when a baby who was killed, has not lived outside it The mother for similar reasons. I cannot bring charges of child abuse resulting in death as district attorney. I have a sworn duty to uphold, to apply and to enforce the law as it currently stands. District attorney's do not decide what the law is they info Where's the law as written, which, of course, is the essence- principle of the rule of law, a fundamental principle on which our country and the state of Colorado were founded, have a sworn ethical duty not to file criminal charge,

against anyone that are not supported by law in existence at the time and by the admissible evidence, regardless of my personal opinion, of the law on April fourteenth too Fifteen state republican legislators introduced a bill in the state Senate that would make killing of feed a homicide in certain cases since this the only case of veto homicide ever to have occurred in Colorado. It is likely that This new law is nothing more than a way of giving a foetus independent rights to that of the mother, opening a door future to prosecuting oceans as murder and charges. Dunno lane faces total a hundred years in prison but as with any case, are no guarantees, in fact, a very dark that treated. Michel Wilkins may provide I dunno lane with a viable defence two Nelson said, the person who Did the incision would have to have researched the subject of the syrian births in books or online to achieve the level of accuracy suggesting

dunno Lane never intended on killing Michel Wilkins. If she did so good job with the makeshift assyrian section, then her in She may not be seen as attempted murder in the eyes of a jury, no wonder why summer watching this case very carefully and are very worried about how it may play out. There is one we're troublesome question about this case. It was their baby, a boy named me. Go. Alexander crews Dan L son. He was just now ten months old, when he trout near denounced parents, southern Colorado, Pueblo County home in two thousand to lanes there husband, the father of the child was at home at the time according to the now, The baby had been playing with his sisters were five and three when this happened now who lets of five three year old, let alone a nineteen months old play. Outside by themselves near a pond. The death was ruled an accident at the time, but this new case raises some questions about that. Could this

mother be a much housing by proxy mom denounced last public post on Facebook is for just a week before the incident. It's a picture of her Witherspoon. Stir and grandmother who died that very same week, whatever madness was there before this was likely a trigger. The strange twisted his story occurred months before the actual event by reminding the deliberate Petra Cherry and I'm a offer, educator and blogger and bizarre anecdote occurred on social media for my own part of grew more on Facebook and back January of this year. One of the monster consider concern

let her husband had been talking with his friend, forget. It had had struck me and was doing over unheard of January, and she thought than have leaving Importantly Burnett yet had had struck me and was during November inherent in January, and she thought and have a baby and when I saw that post I was very concerned I have a background in security management and workers are the police officer for awhile and when I saw the fact that United Hysterectomy and now she was claiming to be permanent body the dread fired for me. I am sure that with the group My group members kind of fell back. I might be an alarmist of some sort and so I e I knew cases

had happened before aware. No woman claimed three pregnant and either takes a baby or dominant exceedingly site, hosted some, prior nude articles on that further incidents that I felt this was and flag in that someone to help this woman that he might harm a pregnant woman and take the baby Elizabeth basically predicted what was about to happen, but nobody took her seriously yeah. Most of the members of the group not believe that anything like could actually happen. You see on tv, if not message, anything wrong. Happens in real life I can withdrew from you no further commenting utter then, asking the original poster to get what her husband explain. You know my thoughts, your eyes and hopes that he word tell her friend, who would turn take his wife to the Euro,

the doktor to confirm a pregnancy or to effect a therapist. Someone help with what might be going on. I mean if you truly was pregnant. That would be pretty fascinating you again what if she had no uterus. And you are absolutely right. What came across your mind when you first saw the story break in the news. The interesting part was. I had no idea that nor a while ago that this had taken place until people started tagging me on Facebook and hearing on posting that will dry she now that she predicted it somewhere A and the original poster.

Jane. You are ended here now March. She had posted, remember my friend than I was asking questions about back in January ball. You, you ve, seen her and a new. She did it, and so I was I only wanted to private is haunted. By my previous statement, MRS something that anybody would ever wish sure would want to predict happening. And it was now horrible to hear that this woman, could produce a baby and she really trying to do of all the worst thing possible harm our mother take the baby. And learn. The ultimate demise of the child vice. Would you give pregnant women pregnant women teach them. Weekly basis with pregnant women.

We are at higher risk of violent acts were pregnant. On the second, my little boy do men and left in inner after brief, but amusing interruption Elisabeth came back to answer not that women are higher risk by violence. How difficult for pregnant, which is totally opposite- that we would think you know, were in a war, maternal type state people tend to do. In working for us, so we would I think that people would harm pregnant women. And so in shoes, general personal. Gee. I don't think I would tell pregnant women to ask any differently just because she was pregnant. We should all be aware of our surroundings boots and be really

We really need to understand that we are in charge of our own personal safety and not to be blind to Use that happen around. After potentially could happen can I get into my car. He I'm always looking around my vehicle before I get in the car, and you know I person idea would lock the doors wanna get in the car, and then I too, the car on, and you know it look around. You know, figures make sure there is someone, know trying our approach, my car or me and hurt me, so I think women than anyone in general really does need to be more aware of their surroundings. It's kind of crazy that we live in a world that we have to do that and especially that pregnant women have to yes You forget, I remain indifferent. Society. Then you know say: twenty three years ago

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to her boyfriend for months for due date is fast approaching. By this point How's Rodriguez had already faked to miss carriages, and this was her third pretend pregnancy not being able to find an adequate victim. She drives to a non profit organization that provides Hispanics with health care where she finds her extra neighbour it's a Ramirez crews and offers her I'd home. Twenty three old. Ramirez crews is the mother of three and she's in her fortieth weaker. Pregnancy with her fourth child, she and her husband, christian Mercato, had moved Wisconsin from our sea bo porter ego about two years prior that morning, Christian had kissed his wife, good, bye and told her. He loved her He called her a few hours later because he was worried about pain, she'd been having. That was the last time

They spoke. This is a young woman who was literally obsessed her desire to have a child with Jose a morality, Rodriguez, Dr Meridian Ramirez, crews, tourists side apartment and then later inside, the pregnant woman excuse, herself to use the bathroom. When she came out of the bathroom. She was caught by surprise arouse Rodriguez viciously beat her with a baseball bat. She tried to fight back but Morales Rodriguez dragged her out of the bathroom Ramirez crew. Was able to run to the living room, but Morales Rodriguez once again struck her in the head with a baseball bat knocking her to the floor, morale,

Stan strangled her with both hands until remit Crews became unconscious. He tied Ramirez crews with duct tape and placed them plastic bag over her head until she was dead. Then, morality proceeded to remove the unborn. Child premier trees is uterus as well. State as he then took a exact or knife or ass. She called her a box cutter and based on A tv show she had seen. She began cutting the victim to the beginning line and an effort. Strike debate upon removing the baby boy from his dead mother. My dream is realized she had killed. New born as well. She then, the body of the mom to her basement called nine one one. She told police the baby died during birth, She didn't know that she was pregnant morality, taken at the hospital, but refused medical attention.

She was later released and returned to her home the home with a dead body in the Smith. The very paramedics who rushed to the scene had no reason to suspect foul play. In fact, ass, confirming the infant was dead. They cleaned em off, wrap them in a towel. And come back to the woman who had just murdered him during the autopsy, the mill Walkie county medical deputy examiner, discovered the baby still had parts of the ovaries attached to the uterus and placenta, meaning is not a natural birth police turned him arouses home and she was taken to Saint Francis Hospital for medical evaluation. There, a doctor

in that Marilla had not given birth and that the superficial sky catching on her vagina walls, which caused bleeding was most probably self inflicted Milwaukee police detective or die. Four Gomes said that when he visited morale as in the hospital, her first words to him were that she was sorry for the girl. Wanted to know how much time should be getting she later to the girl was dead in her basement and that the baby wasn't hers The interrogation that followed Morales was asked she planned to extricate herself from the lie she told of being pregnant. She said she figured she could claim another miscarriage, she also considered other options. Those included committing suicide, telling her boyfriend. The truth or stealing a baby from a pregnant woman, one of them sickening realizations, to emerged during the trial was the fact that there was a moment there that could have gone either way and merits his life and the life of her

unborn may have been spared on the way home. The community center morality took the pregnant woman to drugs. For Anti Nausea medication survey video of the two women shy bring together or the law last known, recorded images of merits, as life arouse, began to panic after leaving this or unsure of whether she could go through with her planned assault. She stopped at her home, We sang she needed to change her shoes, leaving the hunger woman in the car, but instead of staying in the car, written needed to use the bathroom and went inside. This is when her face was sealed the madness. Overcame the monster waiting in the home every. Let it very much in the funding I'm telling the coast is not easy for me to be the day. She just sorry that she was caught. That's my feeling on it. I do not accept that apology. It was cold and would just words out of her mouth, with no feeling. He wouldn't,

walk round, rubbing her Tommy, like she's pregnant. She was telling people she was pregnant. She was buying things actually pull her pirates of the driveway unloading, Harwood like baby a jury of six men and six women deliberated for about an hour before convicting a net. Morale is Rodriguez of two counts. First degree Intentional homicide- morality did not testify and are attorneys did not call anyone says they also did not deny that she attacked Ramirez crews instead argue The deaths were reckless, but not intentional. They had urged jurors to convey. Her of the lesser charge of first degree, reckless homicide carries a maximum penalty of forty years in prison, but during the two jurors were shown a number of graphic photos, including a picture of the Dems. Dissembled abdomen wonder put her hand over her mouth. Another rest, His forehead on his palm and briefly looked away.

There would be no mercy for a woman who showed a pregnant mom and her child. Numerous he has upset or more upset but she's going to be imprisoned. I'm goin, recently mesmerized runway years to life imprisonment without the possibility for release is too much the danger to this community danger to women to anyone ever allowed outside of a prison the victims uncle one crews. At some. To say after sentencing about It says three remaining children. Told me that Mama was in Heaven and I see her there. So it s kind of difficult

we forget very at all, I mean hard on every day. She led we're pretty contempt that this whole the journey, ass, and that's what it and we have some closure, even the funeral director, Jim Jim Walkowiak, was visibly shaken by this horrible event. I didn't sleep last night, just just thinking about this spent possible for me to imagine what this family is going through. I'm shocked and saddened be onwards. I can't I can't described. How I feel about this. So almost tragic events. I very much involved I can't believe much data like the other way, father and mother, Real heard you

I wish I could tell you that those were the only two cases of feudal direction in the U S, but there have been and known cases of this criminal acts since nineteen? Eighty seven, the very first one case in nineteen. Eighty seven was that of Cindy RE, who was eight months pregnant when she was kidnapped at Kirkland AIR Force Base outside a prenatal clinic Darcy Pierce nineteen years old, when he strangled pregnant women to death, she used her car keys to been raise womb snatch. The unharmed fetus baby survived was sentenced to thirty years to life in nineteen five Evans was murdered in her apartment and Edison Illinois. ECHO and Williams, boyfriend federal coffee, and her cousin, Laverne Ward went into home and shot in the head. She had three children and was pregnant with a fourth during the attacks, two of the children were murdered along with their mother,

murderers then proceeded to cut through her womb with Syria, and remove the fetus one of the children, a baby boy survived, as did the fetus. The three murders were caught and sends to life in prison currency, a curry, Margarita Flores Teresa Andrews. These are all victims of this senseless crime and in almost every ass. The story starts out with a woman who is pretending to be pregnant. In almost every case, the mother dies. There was one case however, where the very best possible outcome was realised, its the case of Tita Adam. You could talk to her I was just ass, a wife who did it I don't hate her eye. He was seated It started with a series of phone calls to take a cell phone from a block number. She didn't answer at first.

She was seven months pregnant living in the wind quarters of the downtown Deasey Shelter run by the community for creative nonviolence. Tito was homeless, she'd been added, shelter for about nine months there she at Ronald Bell, who everybody refers, two as p J, P d- her to marry him and by September two thousand nine they gonna the justice of the peace like tv, Peter had been involved with drugs and was intent on leaving the lifestyle for good The two had become inseparable. They were set What about their baby but worried about where they would razor then, the phone rang again taken on a whim answered the or identified herself selfish Stephanie Mills Mill said was connected with a company which she did. Name that helped indigent pregnant women. She told Tita that she had been refer by a cecy envy, staffer and offered to take teak do George Facility in Maryland, to pick up some baby related items. The woman, this I've asked Stephanie. Mills picked up

Chica on December. Second, two thousand nine. On the way mill said she was experiencing car trouble needed to stop by our place in suit land for repairs. Mills upon meant was a large complex of pale. Brick buildings mills part the car and ushered Tita First for garden apartment there through the sliding glass door which was beside the front door open directly into the living room, in the living room was a couch, was scattered boxes and blankets. Mills led ticket, the bedroom door, it sit on the mattress and watch tv while they waited, This woman's name was not Stephanie mills. It was Veronica Darras intentions were not to help and indigent pregnant woman. What would follow would be five days of psychological, physical, torture boy. When I woke up PJ's there, the nurse and then let me know that by gave birth, my eight lb, one,

nine out baby girl and she was healthy. There was a whole bunch of big banks is full of baby staff. Cards the type system from M from the E M teased divide by many people sent me stuff. The nurse told me that I had a catheter. You know my bladder was. I think the battle on my own, I could I could walk the kind learn how to build up the muscles in my stomach again be Flacket go, and you know see my daughter, but our determine determined I started work in pretty early not I would give in a week Gm Pga. Will we owe me down and we going in visitor. He wanted my baby. She wanted. Take my baby and ways. My baby ass, her own heated,

the judge and her lawyer that he gave me five thousand dollars in exchange for her to be able to perform her own c section, and I was going to give her my baby. But then he said that after she gave me, the five thousand dollars and he came to pick me up. I told her that I had already spent the five thousand eyes and I will and giving her anything Chad attacker. The Enquirer and I'm no wrong and I went straight for her and the only thing I can say saved. Her was my dad because the judge This kind of sin there like this is believe a winner when, after her in the Koran,

my dad don't want. My back entangled meets a floor. Like ours football player, he got, five years to live and she's up for Paul and twelve years, which is something that I just can't possibly understand. Added to this day ass, the Oda Giddy and First of all, when she goes up for parole, I will be the most definite I will be there twelve years twenty five years. It doesn't make a difference as long as I'm on this earth, and I can move my legs, I will be there If you want to hear more, you might want to check out the episode of tickets story on investigation. Discovery from the house horror series. It's an in credit

story, because fetal abduction is an absolutely unbelievable topic. It's an inhuman act and after hours and hours of researching these cases, which literally fill you with dread as to where our civilization is headed. I needed reach out to someone who could give me the cold scientific truth Teresa Porter. I and my friends psychologist. My training came in forensics and I worked at one state who federal prison. And now I worked for the state of Connecticut you ve studied this topic of fetal abduction extensively. Can you tell me the name of what your research was. And what do you towards this topic? area of interest is violence by women, this is one of a number of topics about I found that women, she, no sex offenders, infanticide, King Alfred, killers end

This to me, because it was such an unusual and frankly horrific event. When I can across the single story. I was fascinated simply doesn't hear about this. The way here, but other forms of murder, and so I started, delving into what was known, what happened and how how it in construed in the press can tell me a little bit about what goes through it in terms of the cycle. Behind the personal perpetrating this act Is there a lot known about what would cost someone to steal another person's unborne baby and, at this point, went up to and kept track raft of thirty two cases I've been able to find end. There enough different, but they have, for the majority, be cleared the majority and that by the entire, the majority have in them

designer for the job mother heart its. I think people have at times construed this as someone who is driven mad by hormones or driven insane, from a desire to have a child A large amount of these cases the women already had children was it necessarily the need for their own. I'm child in order to engage in parenting instead, so much of it evidence looks like very war. Pursuing the role of mother you think about the way in our society we treat. Pregnant women retreat new mothers not all of them and granted it's a very short period, certain benefits to being pregnant. Having a new child. You are entitled

to a little bit of extra, loving care, you're entitled not to do some of the tasks, but you normally do so. It seemed Some degree a lot like what's factitious Sawyer or more commonly munch houses. Where p engage in certain behaviors too down the patient role, because there is some sort of benefit for a lot of these Since the women were attempting to persuade partner or on their own parents or friends, but they were pregnant that day, some of the case they would due to keep a partner or bring one but in it. Wasn't about turn it off. It was about trying to persuade on parents. Their friend nor the members, but they were pregnant. They needed in section

I love this extra care. This extra attention are there any other types of mental illness associated with this, or is it just the fictitious disorder until these mostly Africa's disorder? I think that that gives us an understanding of why someone might do it, but I don't believe the majority of cases me the role of fictitious assault There is really no evidence of the majority of these cases. More psychotic. Have very rare on that occasion that, until the african two thousand, where the person who did it do inscriptions, though that the case is someone who is was rather psychotic, she was talking- about the victim as somebody who had stood, her daily and somehow had inside a Porsche there. You are choosing the mentally ill individuals, but forty of them.

There is something more of a level of a character disorder. There are people who They don't have the sort of mental illness that you I would think about in terms during voices thing is unable to control themselves? Rather, they have the malady, treats but tend to make? I am rather narcissistic. There, to engage in whatever it takes in order to get their own wants and needs map, and you fail thirty two cases is it just case, where we dont know of these cases, learning throughout history and they ve just been happening the whole time. Or is this a recent phenomenon I have no way of you haven't happened to history, much of our time Species we ve been separated We haven't been documented so

I can't imagine this is brand new and, of course I can nineteen seventy four, but I would not be surprised if people had done it. The need to somehow bring back a lover who is left. You need to persuade the people in your life that you want attention and you want to be viewed as having a. Two final demand of motherhood. That's not do so. I suspect it It's not a Brandon phenomenon, but it can. Very common. It would have been written about. Does this happen, predominantly in the? U S most indicates find I've got a couple in South Africa two m gone into in Colombia, Mexico. I dont know if that, simply because we are,

argument. You'd better seems like a lot of these women lie about being pregnant. For this act is that a war sign. Is there something that the public out there can watch out foreign case somebody's exhibiting some traits that may lead him down this path? Will you ve got to think now? You ve got part of the other. The main. Would you think of it? I am all for these cases they are engaging in a I need to tell the people in my life around they will have their clothes. I found multiple, where the woman had gotten fake, sign a grand off the internet and they were going to find work. So they are engaging in a variety of comments. Were there, Germany and France now You tell Israel Sonogram your not today have expertise in about. There were several cases where there my friends and sometimes there now partners should have no

the woman who had a hysterectomy and yet she's telling you she's pregnant I think there is more than just a woman who is trying to have to hold people who knew shadowing struck me a camel. For believing the hour com in part of this is how they get their victim is also to recall some of the cases be offered the victims. Things like baby clothes, free, diapers used, but still I'm viable, crimps, so multiple cases where that helping victims was brought to enter an isolated place or the perpetrators Tom. That, I think, is the first things I tell people that you don't visit a stranger when you're pregnant by yourself, don't you we support her along with Doktor Helen Gavin wrote a book

old female aggression, an academic text including discussions on female serial killers, crimes such as infanticide females defending Phil aside pretty much, the game of what we ve been covering here uncertain scale for last year. A topic that do not, then written about extensively in hasn't been put in a single case a lot of times. When you see discussion on women who, in violence a comparison, men committed less than one canoe. Like this, and we felt there was the need to similar discuss it has, fact of life. Women do engage in a variety of forms of and without needing to be comparing them to men. We have reached the point where the violence by women in extent Having common NASA simply isn't something different all men do it more.

Committing a lot of violence. We commit a fair amount of sexual violence against children but when you or anyone else of it it's gonna be who are doing to return Educate the public will linked to the book, of course, from the shown of this episode at source. Scale dot com. Let's go do further episode of certain scale. Ives your host might do day. For joining us, tell your friends we'll see,

time. You need something to listen to. You next will check out this other shoe from cast media Jacob Tula. I'm Jamie be me, and we are your house of certainly sucking reach up a sobering to bring you a new stalking Kay covering the ins and outs of each stalker. Their victim in their there

What does she hated me? So? Might she found my stepmother blinded and then was caught making a plan to attack me with my stepmother? He shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a space suit. He looks at me and he goes you look like Jessica, rabbit and lily from the fifth element hasn't. He looks at me very intense, leading US stock. You will hear what the commissioner would you anything or not. We carry about the crime strong, laudably predator,

the stock in me for forty four years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom, a lot more than he had been one of those random messages. On my dear it was like I'm coming and I'll see you on this day. I was responding to them and then it was like a verification of a like. I said, all of a sudden, I hear a knock at the door. I opened the door a narrow, they think point something element standing in front of me with a backpack and he looked at me and he said a new era in kind of panic because it isn't Larry. He followed me my workplace and he grabbed me for men

The door opened with, I am block, may unblock. May why'd. He brought me, I'm Jake, I'm Jamie Baby, strictly stocking marathon, tanneries maintained. We subscribe on Apple pie, cast spot of my readers and passed like my god. This person will stop texting, means of calling me he'd shoring up everywhere. Then that's what it's like you're, like oh shit,.