Hey did you know, there's a place ring it, although it is true Krim headlines five days a week called sorting scale daily and its hosted by me, Rain Williams, Maneater Friday, we break down all the craziest case is going on in the country in a round the globe. If you weren't notes going on before everyone talking about it subscriber sorted scale daily on Apple podcast, Spotify Sticker tune in or anywhere he was near podcast and stay safe. Odin scale, contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences listeners question is advised,

anything that the consumer or the member of the book will the door. He will do that. The point of view

given the time welcome to season for episode, eighty four of sword and scaled a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. There were easing back into another season here and I know it feels like we just took this long break, but it does it feel that way us because there is spin so much work behind the scenes were working on so many different things you guys will find out about them soon enough, don't worry, but it does feel great to be back and to be able to bring you more horrible stories from around the globe. Today were starting off with one of the worst cases you'll, probably ever hear about in your lifetime. Hopefully- and yes, it does involve children, and we get this all the time when people say our God not again, not not that children again. So why do we cover these cases? Because these are the most innocent and vulnerable members of our society? They look up to adults to take care of them to nurture them to give them a voice, but there are no limits to the depravity of man and when the opportunity to do evil exists, you can bet someone will be their taking advantage of. It just goes to show that the worst monsters- this is Jamie.

I'm Jamie, Varlet, I'm the author of the book. The dark net Jamie's book is a great starting point to understanding this sometimes nefarious place known as the dark net. Web or deep web because by many names and how define changes depending on who you ask, but it's a world that you can enter from the comfort of your own home with any desktop. Or laptop computer But if you find yourself there be careful you may find that you can easily become a victim, or even a criminal simply clicking the wrangling. What is the dark net Jamie. What it was all hidden part of the internet somewhere that extremely difficult or control did anyone can go there and set up their own website access with a smile,

Your web browser see don't get there with the normal browsers, like Chrome or Firefox. You need a special as a group, a tall browser that allows you to browse the internet and to get onto the dark net, giving away your ip address without giving away your occasion or any information about self so well, I basically the document has become a sort of very popular place for people with something to hide, and that can be good positive reasons, journalists whistle blowers activists but so a bit of a den of criminality at the same time, nation opening of your book that the dark net Do you think of it is more of an idea rather than a place, and in the book distinguishes the idea of this dark net from tor and tore hidden services yeah, because I mean the internet self, just the kind of the ability of people to be some.

Different online- and they are offline- mean this incredible explosion of all sorts of different strain. Weird and often quite dark subcultures emerge internet, but it needs to be an hidden corners and some of those sort of most terrifying A fine behaviour we say is only because the internet that were already familiar with so familiar a kind of wanted to make that distinction to say the dark net for me is really about all of those culture, behaviors and practices that people do online when they think others are watching. I I could be the idea encrypted tore network the dark net, but I been secretly bicycle this coin: those sort of culture these anonymity a morning and breed both good and bad is something I think. That's it,

We are increasingly important for everybody, because so many of us now live our lives online that come into contact with these. cultures and these people that we all need to know something more about it. Let's go but technical. This tour browser you mentioned: how does it work well U S military proteins, the? U S, naval, intelligence, research projects that word Secure your ip address for you. When you go on the internet, you are essentially asking a website, then your device data and it does by knowing what the IP address the unique ip address of your device is just the way I can get them formation back to you now We have to realise that, actually, you could route that request the visit the website via lots

Other computers based around the world, and if you did that, With some level of encryption, which meant that people looking at you couldn't see where your request originally came from. You could essentially alive people can browse the web so that the websites that you avidity would not know where that requests for data had come from the region is coat Who is that he stands, but the onion router, which is the fact that this browser essentially bout, says you're west, but data via usually three other computers that could be based anywhere in the world, and each I'm unravelling the a kind of layer of encryption A clever and quite sophisticated technique. Greed It really does work it's kind of like laundering. Your internet connection is some. Lie that yeah it may seem to get,

May that anyone is trying to watch what you doing doesn't really know who you are aware you come from, I'm the guy is thought to useful thing many people mean the fact it was originally invented by the? U S, Navy tell you. Of course but the authorities themselves say that very valuable thing and anonymity and privacy they offered? Has so many positive benefits the people? When you were a kid, you replay that game. Where you asked you know, if you have one superpower, what would it be like they cover redid, usually like there's always like the first answer was always I want to fly right. I think that today we think about it I mean. Can I was about to cite lying or ethnic group, or rather less time create, although we all want to be able to fly but will be invisible, but the SEC exactly the second one was always. There was always I wanna be a visible right, there's somethin,

something to that, because, when you're invisible, you can do anything, especially things that aren't really considered entirely moral or legal and the tour browser appears to. Let people do that online. Doesn't it yeah, I mean that the internet generally does a little bit because already could go on any platform, any social, maybe a black woman creator the count on a fake name in a fake photograph. Could be someone else and live value fantasies and so on in the internet itself, with a sort of with the site where you can back to people without knowing who you are already give you a better makes you allow you to be a little the invisible, but I suppose the torn that work is the kind of the extreme end of that, because, if you're messing around on a normal website

pseudonym the possible to get found out relatively easily united. Internet never forget that everyone can. They know what they're doing can find out where you are the with tall, yet not kind of fun. Saving invisible either fully realised, and I guess what you're feeling when people are on this network is over strange places. The blood then take people. You know the strange fund season with ivy criminal or otherwise they want to do you suddenly able to see it suddenly. I did it and the first one you mentioned in your book- is a website that you stumbled across that you said you couldn't believe existed its where you can actually have some one killed well, ITALY, allegedly yes from Afar the nation market place, I don't know whether, in the end that was, sort of fraudulent. What Cyrus, Cora worse.

who, for whatever the cost me spoke the unbelievable possibilities of work nimitti online couldn't can do so. Also website is actually thirst imagined, but technology wasn't ready, then, in the mid nineties, The idea was that people could anonymously back if you like, on when a certain famous some would die and when they back it also put money into a pop next to the individual. encourage your name and if they could correctly gas, the exact time of their passing They would be able to receive the money through clever system of encryption whereby nobody knew you don't make its money and nobody knew who received the money, and the idea was that it would incentivize someone to assassinate.

a political leader and make the prediction them themselves, and then table the money that we crowd. Founded assassination fight Naturally, I recently you might want to check it out, and I recently heard someone's gonna again just recently set one up for Donald Trump and is currently eighty thousand dollars, I disappointed just eighty thousand dollars. That's that's not what I that just a thousand dollars probably not yet Bernie on, like that so arrest, he would probably be insulted by that. I mean the doorway the thing were destined to me is obviously a terrible way of using this technology but actually really clever idea so terrible to fight it.

This idea of anonymously crowd sourcing or incentivize in certain types of behaviour, and I could Hence we have lots of other interesting applications. Toad involve trying to get someone killed what what is it about anonymity that gives people the bravado to do something is brazenness order hit another human being? Well that I say from the paper Paypal but of course the Sunday. The belief that you're not gonna, get caught for Portuguese. Some people wanted it. But you may don't do them leaving no get cold.

everything that we know about behaviour suggested that his father motivation, but for other people. I think this is much too little discussed motivation for behaviour. Is it people, bored people live people to people a board. They like a product boundaries. They like a task boundaries. They like to try thing they like to experiment, and so part of the sort of the stuff we sometimes see particularly internet trawling, for example, it has reached because people are bored, my kind of want something to happen. People curious, I am afraid to say as well. There law about people out there. You know- and I think what the internet dolls in particular under the guise of anonymity reaches, makes for a bit more visible Let me give you an example back when I was younger, television was on and I'd be a celebrity.

a screen away or dislike him. A family half will be shouting of sanity that over the outside That room ever knew. We were doing that, But now a days people put their own twitter rifle used every living room with all the abuse in the screaming and shouting and swearing is now public me available valuable Nobody else to see as well, for it kind of look like we're all much worse than we ever were before, but I wonder whether actually just all a bit more visible and it's also a mean it. I think it's also what happens in terms of anonymity when you create a world without consequences that all of these bad things can occur, Nature can evolve out of that year. Thus, Roy you know when the barriers to entry, everything about it. This was when the barriers to entry of doing something good or bad lovers, more people, gonna. Do it right,

thus far the thing- and I take it easy for me now to insult from one year from my computer. I could it felt pen found people a day, twenty years ago. I couldn't have done more than about a hundred, not approach to your up. For it, the dynamics. Now you know it's very different. Inward. It really shows how we're just animals when you think about it. You know if, if place like this, this dark net can summon all the demons within us to do all these horrible things. Eighty eight it does it does about having you only need to turn on the news really look at all. The things are happening everywhere around the world every day off line unequal rewind, because as surprise me, your friend, I hope We don't have a terrible thing to doing online, but you know I also remember the tables into doing offline and a kind of thing we are we we not always the nicest paces away. being had had his paw,

story, and I think we ve got additional bit of anonymity as well, which is kind of turbocharging. Some of our darker insight. Where there is murder, there's usually drugs, so Tell me about the silk road yes, sir. It's probably the most infamous use of the dark net is this. look road and other websites just like which are essentially illicit, Amazon or Ebay in for mainly illicit drugs, Russell breakthrough. In two thousand and nine Roscoe break through. I think Well, maybe it like, when people realise that this kind of dark net side, what's the excuse me- was not Mcnulty Dogma teeth on eleven and the dark net network could possibly be the play. to set up a completely anonymous online market for anything they

is that if you had the critical currency bitcoin, he had anonymity. using the special toll browser on the website itself couldn't be shut down by the authorities. You could have a passing. Black market online. I love what did and over the course of a couple of years, hundreds of thousands of drugs, the were down on the silk road and it works just like Amazon or Ebay. So we are talking about hundreds. Then those competing for sound thousands of customers and they that by having glossy pictures of the drugs they were selling with product descriptions crucially with user review. So just like Amazon or Ebay wants you got your product, he would keep score out. Five, so make the market incredibly competitive. I'm sorry,

what happened. Was people were starting to produce better and better products, Cheaper and cheaper prices, just like any competitive market does so by two thousand and thirteen two thousand and fourteen the silk road was a place. What it could get any drugs. They could possibly imagine usually a far higher quality and cheaper cars and far easier and in a far more concern. in a friendly way, They have all been able to do off line and that's why they came so Thirdly, popular as they say. That's the interesting part of that, because that, let me let's say you: do you drugs rather than go to some back alley and deal with the a shady drug dealer in a bad part of town. Get him in your your mail, boxers in L, a p o box he set up or whatever he exactly. is that there is every guy you may social equality to it to some degree wanted,

potentially very big, redeeming social policy, which is that the drugs ya back, but that doesn't mean it then that nice threatening their safer, because the less likely to be caught with all sorts of substances people can predict with those slowly forget over those he don't have people hanging around on street corners. There's a lot of possible social benefits of a competitive market place. No just the silk road reminisce about two dozen markets now just like silk like this, still in operation and the silk road was shut down in two thousand and thirteen, but the it like a hydras had does now many more yeah if never quite a simple is that with the dark net, because, yes, there are those redeeming features. possible harm reduction back, of course, also does is: make more drugs more available to more people, and I

ten years old and you can suck me, get hold of any drug in the world without even leaving your house, you know, some people that gonna try to do that, I could be really really dangerous and you ve noticed that being so there yet Drugs were the most well known and most popular stolen data counterfeit money, fake passport and on some site firearms as well. So you know I want to create, is unregulated market places. Yet there are lots of benefits to certain that it will produce definitely sincerest risks that come with Let's go back a second to the year, the murder site that murder for higher site, because I just ask you a question about redeeming social quality and you kind of argue that there's there's a redeeming social equality to a site like this in your book in terms of You know giving power to the to the masses, not letting an elected official do harm intentionally too

to those who am I didn't. I didn't fade out redeeming. Who came up with it? spell, and then I say we should co2 fascination politics of radical Libertarian said if we It creates, beat us acclamation markets, no public she would ever desktop our line because, though, just get fascinated by a crowd, funded murderer as a hate, all the this was, toll for radical libertarian revolution, a basis We said in his ass: they had others, no public official, whatever dare stand for office could be too terrified of the people so that the limit area. Yet maybe there was a redeeming pizza, I'm afraid The data that is for me anyway, the currently by the possibility,

getting people, but there's a lot a libertarian ideas in in a lot of this, especially in the methods used to pay for drugs or murder, whatever else it might be, which is Bitcoin. Can you expect a little bit about coin and how it works? Yeah, I mean the whole the internet, people don't remember. They realise that the whole of the internet really the libertarian fantasy. Censorship. British people call it makes governments far less powerful. Basically, people the silk road itself, a kind of unspent all you controllable black market, is partly for the people that will behind it. A neighbour In political project to to do bang the governments of the world so that a lot of libertarian thinking in your right chief among them is the critical currency bitcoin. We

invented in two thousand and nine is a sort of form of digital cash. It's just a waiter away. You can send a big point. Is just string of numbers that you can send the people who downloaded a wallet Computer nobody's really in control or in charge of it. The way that it work is that there is a public ledger, although every transit, that made between people that have the Bitcoin wallet, which had all public we recorded, but it's all so dominant. So we don't know anybody named or details we just smoke. Has been moved and that public ledger make sure that fifth and knows how much every person on the network has anyone time. It's kind of difficult due to fraud over is practically impossible to fraud.

But nobody ready is confirmed in control of that legit because its distributed across hundreds of different computers, the H retain their own identical copy of that database. Now. I know this might sound like a slightly complicated thing, but It works brilliantly, well, computers check, all transactions were taken, place every few minutes once they there they're all correct. Anybody else's day database, it automatically outdated, if the reason it so beloved libertarians, because no one, control of it every kind of governments can control it because it's distributed over thousands of different computers and it's a currency that is quite difficult. And trace. Even though there is a public database recording all the bitcoin transactions.

This also done enough and even tied necessarily to real world people. He called really see who's doing more, but it still pseudonymous, not anonymous. So there's still a bit of a way to get to the person that that may on the big coins by trading that lair exactly so let's say I have a wallet on my laptop and the wallet. Its number one and you have a wallet which number two: I don't know who you are. You don't know who I am and the government of my reader saw, but they know that wallet one has said what it to a bitcoin and that might give them something that might help them piece together. Some kind of problem that want to work out the causes that piece of information in the level get a pain in the ass for them, because they gonna try to figure out who to it, not transaction, and remember that one of the great benefits that this is one of courses is speeding up. Since they have you ever tried sending money over right.

A guy case, there's big charges attached and with Bitcoin. It takes a fraction of a second descent Bitcoin to anyone in the world and it doesn't cost you anything. Are we not an amazing thing and so a lot of business people see huge potential. It pointed becoming a ready guy, you currency, so we ve talked about murder and drugs what's missing, nor the correct thing than even the sacks. Of course.

And porn. And you know, a lot of the porn is created here in the United States, in states like California, in Florida and states have been tightening the regulations against the porn industry. I imagine is more and more. These states strengthen their laws against what you can do and what you can't do more of it ends up in the dark web. Latterly year may need it, because it is the third place where anything that is the legal on the normal and there are. The real world can often find the fine died, bear in mind the internet generally, of course, to the place where you put regulations in in the real world, and will that idea into the online one and of we were talking about some of the Vienna more insidious, types of pornography like child porn? He up here,

We surprised to learn from your book that there was a time when child porn was actually not illegal. Here is actually quite When you look at the subject, historically, there's some pretty shocking things I think people realise how recently become a matter of interest for the authority to me, the age of consent. The UK, in the nineteenth century, was twelve years old. You know- and this was not considered to be a major problem in the night for some countries in the nineteen seventeen in scandalous, shop countries the counter Mcafee was legal ass. He could go and buy a child pornography in a shop over the counter, but the difference was done Can I stay the course it quite different. Now in most countries is good. The supply, This material with relatively limited in this kind of

very early nineties, the F B. I said they basically cracked the problem because they knew the supply networks. They knew the number of magazines and images that wins like which, within the hundreds of thousands and I felt like they, they were on top of the problem, but the introduction of digital technology completely changed the problem because it made it possible for people to create and collect thousand hundreds thousands and then sometimes even millions imaging very quickly and very easily. I'm fine suddenly. What thing to be problem is now something, I'm afraid to say, is almost completely uncontrollable ended. Trusting in terms of how easy? It is to stumble into this sort of a crime. If you're me no playing around on the dark web

or the dark net yeah, I mean us that yeah yeah, right out. There lies the problem, the other websites that have links to another than to another and that sort of thing, our common objective of alarm. Internet behaviour is that you say on Google as well or new chief. You know the Ethiopian, stuck in a rut, way start clicking links which take you to another language like you to another link can go my don't really where you going Irish assimilated wait with illegal pornography, in the darkness. I believe, very quickly and easily find yourself things and then some pretty dark places You know, I know gone there intentionally looking for it thought through a combination of morbid Curiosity, I'm, whatever else you and up there, and so That is one of the big problems with which this issue now, I think of it,

twenty years ago, people that were interested in hearing illegal pornography had tonight I'm kind of concerted effort to go about getting it which limb the number of people that did it. Now it is rather more easy simply. You can do it almost accidentally, which me is that more and more people are doing exactly that, even though it is a massive problem on the dark net, partly because what there are almost impossible to censor, and so what happened? These places he's illegal conshy sites become a little bit warehouses were images- are posted. People and download the rigid onto their own hard drives animal Those websites are removed, and sometimes they are. You ve got thousands of people with copies around the world. Can re upload them again as a kind of decentralized supply, this material, Not just the dark in there I mean the guy

call me big. If not bigger problem is young. People who are taking pictures. Often Oh and sharing them. Well, sharing them on their own social media profiles or to their boyfriends or girlfriends with already thinking about it, and those images often find their way onto illegal pornography site young kids, don't realize the kind of consequences of water actually do it, and when Europe ten fourteen year old with a small phone coming, so glad I'm not grubbing up a dyed with smart phone, because I didn't she could think of the two and you got realised when you're the age and not thinking in the same way. I saw you, I really worried that we wish we spend a lot of times worrying about darkness, definite legal pornography, and then you know thirty,

fourteen year old kid, the just sharing many into these image. It all the time without realizing how how serious debate so, I know a guy. What the answer rhythm is quite uneasy. Try one just perfect more education, no wait work You know I mean, I just doesn't say: it's a very, very serious problem, the we don't think has a very obvious or simple solution. I am a big fan of this next sponsor, I use it every single day, I'm not kidding it's grub hub, If you haven't used rob you gotta, give it a try, every pulse What type of cuisine in your area comes right to your door? I mean Better than that and the best of grub hub is their loyalty program called grub hub plus that offer, free delivery, donation, matching fur, donate the change and a leak.

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that of paying a cam model to perform sexually explicit acts, what you order and these red rooms is instead torture. One of the most famous red rooms goes by the acronym Alicia. It features just audio Much of it is hard to make out, but listening leaves you with quite an eerie feeling you're, not sure exactly what you just heard

two thousand and eleven the Philippines, an Australian born man, known as Peter Gerard Scully. Please this tropical paradise? After fleecing dozens of property investors back home

for a total of approximately two point: seven million dollars behind his wife and two kids, but he's entrepreneur, anyhow, A new business idea fifty two year old, Peter Scully, as a man with no moral fibre and what about to do is so outrageous. That, even to this day it's the stuff of Internet lore in fact The crimes he will commit are so egregious that the country is now reconsidering reigns. Treating their death penalty, specifically this case.

In the Philippines Scully, disappears from sight the twenties esters. He defrauded are eager to find him, but he is gone. A warrant is issued for his arrest and australian airports are instructed the nab him when he returns will not be returning it befriend. A teenage malaysian prostitute name, Lynn, and together they embark on one of the darkest and most pray ventures in modern history. Companies name is no limits. Fun. They will find young children and charge customers in a dark web chat room a fee paid in Bitcoin to pursue? What actions on these children acts

of sexual abuse, torture and murder. Using children as a commodity. Scully and his young partner will abuse more than a dozen children over three years moving freely. Play from one rented house to another, employing at least for foreigners and half a dozen filipino workers in their highly lucrative per view. Child pornography, business two of the most famous videos. Infamous videos they produced are called days. He's destruction and deaf who love these vat Those are to this day still available on this. corners of the dark web,

and make no mistake talking about here, isn't just child pornography, its murder At least one of the children used in these videos was killed by Scully. buried under one of his rented houses floorboards, because the simple act of even clicking a link to view these videos in and of itself a very serious crime fuel it Having seen them there, our dozens of forums where the more curiosity of the masses compels people, to ask what occurs in these videos or and be stupid enough to request a link because of the nature of these videos, I cannot

verify exactly what their content is But there is one man on Youtube that claims to know. Some readers, Call him a liar and a fraud but his videos describing the content of Deaf who love has generally over three hundred and eighty thousand views so judge for yourself in this video. They actually have five people who five children in cold blood under the age of one girl. The personal created the video is actually the same person that created daisy, structure Peter Scully of no limits, fine we're gonna talk about as video takes place, it takes place and you got This gives me a fucking pause and I'm a death. Israeli fuck me up asked a lot of people. What the same was what it is and so forth

the web on a question and of sustaining and I've gotten pretty much the same response from everybody, so Let me know that people have seen this stories. must cooperate in their true There was The video takes place, an empty house were five adults standing around three men one of them being Peter Scully and too his girlfriends, the people that were listed there on the video is actually a man by the name of Jose Louis Hernandez, Escobar, spanish, national and, of course, Peter Scalia Self. at an unknown man. Just play along with the skies too our friends in global actor took place? proud away about December, just a little bit before, then, in an empty house. The video jobs will have the cameras turned on you.

Two other man sitting at the table drinking beer. Again to talk for a couple minutes and ass. When the care a man, has to go out of the house, yearning they start on a child is outside. There was Wang some kind of duct tape over mouth with a dog leash. If she has a across on her was in her arms slow to be around nine years old? what's he vanishes you chose to women arriving with the mask on alternate being scholars. Girlfriends Each of them had two bags suited to open the bags that contain babies. Who will be the big said the stranger sat. Proceed placed children on the floor after they put some newspaper under them whether to remedy this guy proceeds to go and grab a toolbox from the church. The blue card

It was very large and look very heavy, the camera mayor walks around failed in the house. The two women finishing our place in the baby's on the floor their mother sitting on top of the newspapers at that why everyone comes into the room, Why are the women takes the chair that you Basically, the feed berries like high chairs and stuff and start putting the baby's one by one in their actions. Ass, kissing them at filling them up pretty much sexual nature. The camera man shows the toolbox as going opening it up here. exit chisel and a hammer out one of the men and the slapping the baby thing kissing, where she slapped his sexual They are gathered around the babies and then start to write them this world. For some time around thirty five Minister, one hour one claim to be done that point one of the women then takes out a chisel and a hammer. It gives it the Scully

Scully places at the top of the head of the first job, Scully, ferociously. Yet the child chisel on the baby said what comes next is piercing cry of the baby over and over for around a minute until the baby. Finally stop crying and the body stops moving as the baby was laying there lifeless Scully was heard, say: well, That's a lot of fighting. As every quarter stream of blood coming out overhead and her ears. The next baby has taken smack to the ground the other two men that were there was Scully risk, Take a chainsaw the grabbed a baby. They start Laughing at the bay screaming there, then take the baby and tie her feet and just justice was to start cutting Europe the baby's deadened seconds. The remainder of the day we are showing?

be taken and thrown out of the house into the back yard, where there was Sidney Extending that happens is even worse. The two women came on stage and everyone takes a jack. And they began to whip the remaining babies and wars the baby state and start fighting them. As if they were having a pillar fight. During that time, one of the women start getting angry and louder for everyone at the table. He drinking drink more. Once you see they and the other girl started fighting with the baby's back and forth and they catch. in the face together and they together until this calls open up innovation the baby's die. Don't you, babies were then thrown to the ground. Much like with them once or twice. Take the last baby that is alive lay some doubt they then

but scissors in his stomach and is stuck in and out over and over again until an opening, his name they then battalions and start to pull out the intentions of the baby, Skype tells the women. He is not satisfied that he is not impressed so one of the women but says into the eyes of the baby. The baby she's in dies about thirty seconds after them This is where the video ends on. Three twentieth, two thousand fifteen a four year global Man hunt Peter Scully was arrested in his rented house in Mandalay, belay city and choice. With numerous crimes, cutting child molestation. The torture and sexual abuse of at least a girl's, including eighteen month old infant and the murder of on eleven year old, filipino girl. Reported that Scully would make the children dig their own graves before abusing them in the jail House interview with Australia's sixty minutes. Peter sky

the exhibits, no remorse an appeal. Is almost defiant in the face of a pie double death sentence. So when you are on the wrong, how great was the edge? to find young girls How do you know he's not like? the result. Is gonna failures every three hours and not like that? This really. It's almost nobody knows Why do you write young children as it is? I don't know the real answer. Well, not only has it Agus Do you still consent, deprived prize How do you do it, but I'm looking for is the real reason. My word and what drove me to this in Austria was not in the first six

six months here. I wasn't like that. So what the finest will almost no one to tell everyone that is. I'm writing. Everyday. I've been here since I think she doesn't know what has happened. What concerns me, but my mediator, destroyed all lands of the present when you consider that a confession why would you abuse and eighteen month, old child love Rosato was chosen sorry wrong, sighing washing our wish to pick up a confusing the other ones are getting out of shape, how the shape I want to get into any of that year. Exotic whether that China's eighteen months and things three years past, mixing up with a nine year old child living here I'll go twelve year old girl tax always than haven't you goodbye to come in the council.

It's a realistic way was a reaction arrested. Did you feel is pathetic ass. He looked thinking. Continued Tell me, I leave it to you. You weren't pedophile in Australia. Is that true, victims in striving for food, What about your own children how much oxytocin You ask that we believe that there is still one no missing. Where is she from our minds and will be everything being regime. They gave us some Christmas, but that will be monitored is she live there? anyway, I we almost done is we're going round in circles I'm not finished yet What we interested in is whether you have any more most with you.

To what you ve done, which is sexual abuse and, of course, matter, because every was why, of course, raising people don't have remorse asking years. Somebody here is a repeat offenders. Here they went on the run his unhappy because you think course not because you turn yourself in point d actually feel sorry for what you ve done is the point we are captured. Really. This is a good christian know them as a very good question. Producer remorse I think these different degrees of remorse, otherwise Rudy. because your greatest dream was cars when you finally realize we stand you down What point is there

who's. This come into their own. Why isn't The point where you are actually somebody Violently, torturing them wise enough at the point when you kill a child, why thin Why don't you realize the extent what you ve done it then? You should also listen. I'm asking the name. You did it What is it about? You painted hajus children and women so much I'm not interested in the journal? got crazier and crazy a few and sicker and sick, and you don't they committed murder was going to end like way with what was the next level fear? there was the next level

and as apparent hacking, you reconcile what you ve done to children and exclusion Do you accept that you're ruining their lives as soon as it came in touch with the journal. So you really have no sympathy for these people and their estates There's this unusual I think we have reached where It seems like based on the history of child pornography, that the authorities

eventually stop going after the source of the material and just gave up and started going after the consumers of the material and because of that nowadays clicking a single link clicking the wrong link can be a very serious crime. Yeah yeah think a lot of people. There's a strange disintegration. A online where I think people miles subconsciously, don't feel like Clicking on a link is a serious crime. They could all you're doing is pushing about I'm on your mouse right and so Don't seem to realise that just one sitting at your computer here, actually capable of committing an incredibly serious crime. They'd breed of a girl like you did because it's a very simple physical act. So that's one of the things that people need to try to learn that we will need to, but I'm afraid,

never going to be able to get further problem entirely and local governments say I just don't think it's possible, as we were working on this episode story broke, which has an avalanche of peace. Ethical and legal ramifications, really to the way authorities prosecute crimes such as child porn. Graffiti? I'm sure as a citizen of a western country that touts justice and liberty you wouldn't want to. That your own government is doing harm to its own citizens and, more specifically, to children That's exactly what happened. The over this of authorities to catch the bad guy, combined with the lazy method of going after consumers instead Producers of such material had the effect of instead making authorities themselves the bad guy early, two thousand fifteen. The federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI seized a dark website called play pen that featured sexually explicit pictures of children, but instead of shutting down immediately, they obtained US

toward from a federal judge in Virginia that allowed to keep the site operating for thirty days on a gun controlled server in the catch, more people, downloading the images a proxy, The twenty two thousand images, videos and links to child pornography that more than a hundred thousand people access were kept on that government controlled server. They used it to into the computers that access the material and obtain their identities, with information. They filed, charge Is against people such as thirty, nine year old, Darrell, Glenn Pollack, who was indicted in two thousand fourteen, as well as a hundred and eighty other people nationwide. It was called operation pass, a fire and some legal experts think it went too far since doing this made the FBI themselves guilty of exploiting children, the? U S it was essentially conducting a cost benefit analysis way. Damage to children against catching people who downloaded child porn

Douglas Anderson, chair of the University of North Texas Philosophy in Religion Department, said this in an interview with USA. Today, quote it moral conundrum for anyone who takes the view that we, committed to protecting them in all ways. Their way, it against these kids lives have to have something pretty overwhelming to offset damaging more people it would have to awfully extreme to allow even one child to be harmed. The ever widening that is gonna, be be more while countries get better access online, including through the dark net, whether maybe even quite as strong, a police presence for quite so scale, to police presence at digital policing and in some cases, far higher poverty and in some places, different cultural attitude towards the ages,

sent a we might see more things like is not necessarily the case that you ve, given the more instances of child abuse of various parts taking place online site, no, it's not rosy picture. Is it a mean it? There are big problems ahead? there was a long history, though leading to the emergence of tor and the dark net, and it seems the creation of such a place was inevitable in your book. You describe what and to a cam model when she wandered into the wrong usenet group. Can you talk a little bit about them. Well, I mean people sometimes forget the innocent. We kind of thing here before and in the early nineties when internet to early internet coat was just take her in usenet groups or a bullet,

bored systems. All These things were already taken place. Already had people wet coming performing leipsic shows in various different types of rooms. He had huge answered internet trawling, which had become a very, very important subculture? legal pornographers were going on. Sir early internet shall share initiative we that it was all of the same problems. See now we saw in the early nineties. It's just I become little bit more mainstream. Now me Bartlett describes the sinister nature of some of these internet places such as for Chad, where a election of geeks and outcasts, can bully her ass or even destroy someone's life. Often comfort of their own homes sitting behind a computer keyboard

It was with this one. Guy was it. She was doing that, like so many others before. How does she caught? It was going in the wrong chat. Rainbow shooting in a kind of no holds barred, chat roulette we're off, unites, take her clothes. Often she was doing here and I will put in request since she was doing here, never almost enjoying here. Then then they all what they asked for her first name too the across her body, which she did and then they off the huge on any medication. Could she showed him the bottle of medication which she did and that just suddenly changed everything, because then they decided the people, the watching the way the information her first name and the address of her doktor, which would on the label of the bottle that she shed They could probably work out who she was in real life could see within work on the assumption that she was completely anonymous. And it took him about ten minutes, give those lots of them working together.

You find out where she lived what her phone. I was. What university he went to, why redress what about number was I make them have Facebook page and they found her twitter account I believe- and this was of all happening in almost information being shared in the same room. She was if he was watching what happened, but she was completely powerless to stop it they put together. A month of month out of all the different photos to sheep. Sharing on that page and then send to all of our Facebook friends so nice her parents, parents, friends from school teachers and pigs, is made that one little mistake- and you know it was funny enough about that story. I was kind of a story that got bigger to want to write this book because I was in poor Chan like a lot of people scrolling around port,

and because it always weighed and interesting things happening there and then They saw this happen, I'm sorry happened. Why than all she's thinking? I can't believe this believe. What say there so I need to be able to walk. Paypal. They saw a thing tat, place, because, let us be honest, make mistakes and they're gonna go to websites. Places that maybe they shouldn't I would. Rather they were a little bit So the ready what it was like if they do What is it about? Trolling that people find so appealing It goes back a little bit too. I said before about war. Why anonymity brings out the worst in some people. Could you got different types of internet trolls? You have people were considered

been enjoyable, creative, pastime and I'll, spend hours trying to work. How artistically how to really push someone pond and get them upset, they see as an enjoyable. Create his exercise and some of the trolling that use the is actually really quite funny and ready for skilfully dumb. And then to other people. It's just post boundaries in facing people off just for the sake if it would frankly, while others did, you ever play knockdown ginger when you were a kid What is often not don't on a door baby. That's an english expression. Knocking on the front door, then running away yeah we answer. We call that something different in the. U S! What do you call that? I don't think I can say that on the fucker,

What did I tell you? I d works guy, yellow, go to that so we're. Why did you do that? Why this? Why did it? Because it was enjoyable to upset some one else for love, so a little bit about going on as well another there's some people The police and the angry bullied and link like going on there too upset people, but some of the day forward It is considered to be something of a political gesture. You know we free speech is under attack. People can't say what I really think being an inn Metro, troll on saying crude and rude and offensive things is a The way in which we take the boundaries of free speech, alive, someone's got to say, offensive stuff can make sure that we the rest of us. The fact that its ok could be rude and offensive. Anonymous and eyes have spoke anonymously. The funding.

with their real name, but usually anonymously. I've met kind, you internet trolls, who consider what that to be something of a sort of a political gesture to the all the rest of us benefit from the thing when you hear about internet trolls, the image, get it over an angry person who believe screening height and yes, there are some people doing that, but there are plenty. What people are doing a slightly different reasons too, of course. Trolling can also have dramatic consequences that be deadly serious. Tell me about Mitchell Henderson, though the young, the young man, I think you to pay, he killed himself and how I'd exactly nor should the members of fortune had had found the story. About him. I just found some mode He left a in the news that mention them.

I saw your ipod, but he was up about eight heads from how can conquer this story that this man had killed himself he lost. I thought why did he die put stolen? I may start Creating all of these mainly damages and pack a bow Mitchell had lost thought That's why he killed himself and they started. Became hilarious for the people involved. They thought they were able to find the details of his dress than his parents, who started phoning his parents and sending images with parents. Nothing. One person even turned up his parents house tried to give an ipod to his father. I mean and if it were trawling, which some people just thought was consumer thieving very dog can

be so devastating for the people that are on the receiving end of it. I don't think the people doing it always realise that and poor channel the kind of culture of thing as offensive as rude asthma possible when they almost complete, sometimes the data and on board. That one upmanship had led to pretty terrible incidents like this at all for cases where many fortune had managed to find from police file the image of a car crash. The involved a young woman, was killed, wished they manage to them and via email and a social media to that goes. Parents, I live in an unbelievably got things have happened this year is out that trawling, and so this is the point from where there is a bit of a spectrum, and sometimes it Nell Chert Dingle, who I am

I go all the way up to essentially bullying grieving parents and, worse and worse, then there is the case of William Francis Maltreat Dingle, who I am basically was trying to get some troubled people, including a girl named Nada. To try to get herself on cam yeah me not. Oh, I wouldn't even know whether a cool that trawling Emily could fight horrific the list. another kind of weird quite dark, were very dark sub, online. We didn't on the dark net from the normal internet, which is a suicide forums. There are lots of suicide forums where people go usually anonymously and talk about their fancy for committing suicide. They talk about method, to correct this, I am sometimes

they even get involved in a pact where they agree with somebody else to commit suicide. At the same time, one. Individual only foreign forums had been talking People in the form of pretending they hang he was a young nurse who could help people who want commit suicide today in in a fairly safe way. Some other people that he was planning to commit suicide coup, He wasn't a young ass, he was, he was a man any fifties, and we now, I think, of at least two cases, including the woman, not dear little british man, who was in admit twenty two. Thinking that they were committing suicide in a pact with a friend, a friendly young woman with admit all mine.

Doing it live on camera were actually being completely trick by this guy who would not committing suicide? You just get a kick out. Making other people there I do not really was one of the darkest things, thoughts or anywhere, and that was on the normal internet. That, too, terrible things, and they suicide forms like many of these talker places. Can be really quite dangerous. Many people can get misled and they can be They can be abused and they can end up doing also terrible things, but there was the other side of these suicide for some people found them really helpful. Some people said they had their large as a result of going until these forms gravel to find people to talk to people who understood them they'd, always they'd, always on the side of the story, The last question: do you think

nature of the dark web says something about the future of humanity. If we want to finish holiday, I We have a saying that have it a question of course: I talked almost non, stop here about what a terrible things that were doing bar talk about with brilliant things that people are doing with these pills all? amazing Journalism, the whistle blowing the activism, The people are using enhancing or privacy enhancing tools for great good in society, They are not part of the story to all of us. It is more and more of our personal information get hacked org. Stolen we are worried about surveillance from price. Companies or from government. We

he suddenly will come I realise that we all do need some degree of privacy online. and we will come to many of the tools and techniques that these people are using everyday lives, and so I think it is It says something very important about the future team on which is, I think- More people are going to use all. They told him that we will come to say. Privacy is far more valuable than we do today. The dog- let him another things like you will go mainstream which will have huge benefits than any other. but it also gonna main. Unfortunately, all the problems that about talked about. Can really only see gang were so we gonna a kind of more carbon future where Many of us will better it greatly from the freedom that the internet offers

the many more people will also be used privacy. Criminal one apparent Jimmy, but Thank you. So much for joining us

excitingly. Jamie Bartlett's book is called the dark net inside the digital underworld. You can also check out his TED talk, which at present has just under two million views. If you like the show, please tell your friends about it. Join us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and don't forget about our patriotic patriarch, is a website that allows are listeners to donate just a few bucks a month to help keep the show going in return. We give you perks throughout the year, including merchandise, and bonus content such a sword and scale, plus a condensed version of this programme available only a supporters at the five dollar level or higher. If you like something, help support it good, a patriarchal, slash, sword and scale for more details. That'll do it for this episode absurd eighty four of sword and scale. Thank you for joining us and until next time stay off the dark net and Stacy remember when they were under going Cromer user in Washington with America to barter LUCA Magnano here, I'm a couple years on earth were worried. You I like your skin, then that is not topical air time frame for lack of a better word. You can listen get anywhere. Murders of all their mere Bristow fresh, very rat were very disturbing. I remember this boy but you're out what more disturbing labels are there in the last ten years, laughing thy power through other one cup and the reaction of love me and everybody I was highly disturb with people who go and murder are reporting and unpaid work. I don't know, I'm torn any different from me warning to listen to your plot podcasting out thinking company out putting an end to your day. Yes, whiteboard, Jan and all those things are out there. People will find them. There had yet found the reaction, disturbing they're, all and thirteen breweries. One is obviously that kid, maybe that's what I find during that allow geared yeah good black haired man. I was no about thirty, thereby gas, giving up a news monthly barely a year. Do you a couple times a month and keep up the good work by the way your shows very well produced, maybe a little bit less begged me. That's ok, interest ITALY! The mood you get. Your men keep up the good work.

Do you need something to listen to next will trigger This other show from cast media. I object to I am Jamie Baby and your hosts of certainly sucking reach so we're gonna bring you a new stocking case covering the ins and outs of each stalker, their victim in there,

what does she hated me? So might she found my stepmother blinded and then was caught, making a plan to attack me with my stepmother? He shows up to my gallery and he's wearing a space suit. He looks at me and he goes you look like just a rabbit and lily from the fifth element hasn't. He looks at me very intense, leading US stock. You will hear what the commissioner will do anything or not. We carry about the crime strong. We applaud obligation, predator who's, been stuck in me for forty four years was starting to really interfere with my life and my freedom, a lot more than he had been one of those random messages on my idea. It was like I'm coming and I'll see you on this day I was responding and then it was like a verification of, like I said all of a sudden, I hear a knock at the door. I opened the door and there they exploit something element standing in front of me with a backpack, and he looked at me and he said a new era of panic because it isn't Larry followed me my work play and he grabbed me for men to the door and with thy Unblock they unblock may body blow me, I'm due to Time Jamie Baby strictly stocking mares. On January, we subscribe one apple tallgrass spot of my words, like God. This person will stop texting news, of course,

we re showing up everywhere. Then that's when it's like you're, like oh shit,.