Sword and scale, contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences listeners. Aggression is advised it started with me going down on her We would start to have sex she would cry when she did it, but she knew what she was doing welcome to season four episode. Ninety nine of sword and scale a with that reveals the worst monsters are real

in this episode, we have a very important topic to talk about a topic. Many Rarely discuss male sexual child abuse we have some stories to share and we're joined by real crime. Profile's Jim Clemente, please stay with us.

When I was a boy. Maybe around eleven or twelve years of age. I would ride my skateboard or bike really around my neighborhood. It was a different era. We didn't have play dates or helicopter We don't even have cell phones, there was no internet. Cable tv was essentially one channel HBO. It felt like a more innocent. In the turmoil. We see today on twenty four hour news networks, but it wasn't. It just seemed that way. This one day I was riding my skateboard going between My grandmother's house and my mother's

where I lived. It's a short route just around the corner, the houses are, but a block away from each other. And I had almost reached that corner when I know a white Van Slowing down and pulling up next to the curb, where skating by It was one of those non distinct white vans with no windows, not too new, not too old, The same kind of van that gets a whole cut on one side to be modified into an ice cream truck plastered with stickers of snow cones and cherry screwballs in orange pop ups, while Whilom

Call horn plays an endless loop of Carnaval sounding music, but this van had no ice cream. It was plain white, no markings, nothing at all. That would stand out. Inside a man rolled down his window and called out to me. I stopped he held up a Polaroid in his left hand on it, a picture of a child. This child looked younger than me, maybe seven or eight, maybe younger, explained He was looking for this boy explain who he was or why, but it seemed that this This is perhaps his son. It was missing. I

pinched over from the sidewalk getting closer to the curb to get a better look at the photo. I was now on the grass just feet away from the van as I looked at the picture I didn't notice the driver's door slowly inching open. I was still focused on the picture trying to remember if I had seen this kid somewhere before I didn't notice that the vans door was now almost one slash four of the way open, but something in my peripheral vision. Snap me out of my concentration on that picture. That was the man's face. There was something off about it is expression, didn't make sense, and that's when I look down and notice that I could see through the crack in the open door the man wasn't wearing

any pants, then he was masturbating. I immediately pulled away and scape at home as fast as I could, I told no one. In fact it well over a decade, Finally, opened up about this incident to anyone. I don't know how to handle it add in even know what that man wanted. But I knew feel right. I was lucky on that day. I escaped what could been a horribly defining moment. That would have scarred me for the rest of my life. I may have even escaped death. I was very lucky and I often wonder who that child was on that photograph, I am often wracked with guilt that I didn't do something that I didn't come forward. What happened?

to that boy, He asked me this morning if I planned on talking in the host and stored in scale at some stage. Probably well? Thank you. Thank you for doing yeah. This is Alan Alan reached out from literally the other side of the world. When we put up a post asking are male listeners if they had ever been victims of sexual child abuse and whether or not they wanted to tell us their stories plus all the price starts. So so hold yeah I'll wait. Yeah, 'cause I've looked at this very few people that know what kind of person he actually is. Some people just think he's a boy. Alcoholic and that's fine. I accept him as that and then there's other things that well. Nobody knows, and especially he's family,

things like that, Alan wanted to tell us about his father when I would have fainted I don't nine. We had child services, come to the house and they're asking everyday questions about how sister at the time and when she goes to bed about not to say the style blight out with her and things like that and yeah. Well, it's different to know what you're thinking at that age. But it comes shortly after that, your answers to those questions are having a lot bigger impact on on something of a bigger picture, hear that Alan feels a great amount of guilt for not exposing what his father had done. So the particular scenario without step sister was, I suppose the beginning of death or where it started an obvious what what slot slot after that was yeah. He was being accused of sexually assaulting this girl and and various things now he was Is that true, the lack of evidence back on it now. I think the answer is that

me and my siblings gave at the time. Well, why don't know how like the be answer, the questions, I think some of them just would have been to try protecting man. What we were raised up to telling what he wanted to hear and you had to guess what might be here or you'd be begging for it. Do you think that some of your answers may have contributed to him being acquitted? Yes, yes and that's difficult to live with that's difficult, to try an and racquet head around. Now, when I still think of that I made this was like. Twenty nine now. So this is twenty years later and I can't tell you what I went to and then, but I can tell you this clear as day that the conversations I had sitting down with these people- you remember those traumatic moments, exactly yeah this moments in your life and it's sort of I don't know why it would have been in my 20s where perspective play shine? I'm saying SAM. I realized that those answers connected with other things.

Things that he was doing all had done. You said something in your in your text. You said he was like doctor, Jekyll and Mister Hyde, two different personalities, yeah and that's very much how it feels an he. Family, his mom and dad, and everyone sees doctor, Jekyll and and the monument they go on out of the were you get what's left to head to Mister Hyde side of him, and he just have my moments where I could switch flicks and he's bye for change, and that was it. He was in a totally different Mardan and I when you that's the only type of discipline you know as a kid and if it's being hit for things doing everything like that. That's what we accepted. If we do something wrong, we were going to get hit for it knowing way of the line walls than what he should and shouldn't be doing. You don't know

you're growing up. So he put my brothers head through a window. One time when he flew off the handle at dog was barking too loudly, so he went outside and broke its leg yeah. It's the perspective of the scale that you realize when you reach a certain age and when you ask for people to reach out- and I suppose specifically about sexual assault and things, I listen to a lot of podcasts and I listen. A lot of other podcasts and here's some really really sad stories about things that happen to people, and I suppose for me that puts a lot into perspective of there's a lot worse things. Yeah and everything's relative, but that doesn't discredit you went through, I mean yeah. I know, but in my mind I don't know Look at it now. It's ok! That was wrong. He gets only do things like that, but at the time connection. Isn't there an? I don't know if it's just from from listening to

things- an well growing up and learning the difference between. Wrong or right, but, as I said like he, he would get. And then for no reason whatsoever unzip his pants an and make it look at his parents like an one stand so recall in that the kitchen he said come here and pulled me right. I and he says, look I have sn what's on my private, so she's cheating on me I'm in the middle of just doing homework, I'm watching Teve. How old are you at this point, so I would have been thirteen or fourteen at that stage, and I I bet You got a concept of what trading on emails, let alone more general warts are at that stage, and so he separated with my mom and my stepmother, who is married to at the time, was the girl that he was accused of sexually assaulting. So they

divorce. Then then he got remarried after that and had two more kids, and it was interesting because I talked to my brother. My dad never talked mother said. Things about it. That kind of thing with my mother an at the time I looked up to my dad, so I stayed with my dad. Then I went with my mom and we kind of separated by a tonight. Kilometers. So we didn't, we didn't get to talk to each. Off, and then I I was largely raised by him, from there on out so the moment I was able to, I don't know at the time- and I wish I Didn'T- but I went to live with him thinking- that's what I wanted to do decide not us, to my brother a couple years ago, and I said these kids now they don't want to see him like he's youngest, which is eight. She says I don't like my dad, I don't want to go there and I say My brother said that worries me. I know what kind of man he is then my brother goes well. I know too and said: well, now. Why I'm talking like showing his private parts to kids

and things like that and my brother, yeah. I know I had similar things. We haven't talked specifics. We kind of just left it at that, but it's kinda like will ship, and I worry for his kid now. To be honest, it's really troubling. For me. I yeah it's it's other instances when like he took me when I was. I would have been stain on a trip to Thailand. With my uncle I'm on world. In the hotel where him- and I I was asleep in the hotel bed and he came in with a magnet I saw that I was awake. I got up and went to the bathroom and then this is why he's mad with the kids he just preceded to have sex with and that he'd brought home. While I was sitting the bad stuff like on any typical high, tell bad next to it, and I sort of just got out went to the boss room and just sat in the box during until should best or whatever that was it

just fell asleep, didn't think anything, although this was someone he'd hired, it wasn't a date yeah yeah No, I I don't. I imagine that it was definitely a sex worker yeah amazing. How old were you at this point? So I was sick staying at that point, so that kind of evolved from if you described as random flashing to hear child, but that that was sort of the next evolution of that I'm talking to Alan, I started thinking of my own father when I was young to we have a strained relationship is an understatement, although I don't think he ever sexually abused me. I do remember a belt when I was very very young before my parents were divorced. I remember it. Wasn't a happy home

later in life, you would act inappropriately when I was barely old enough to understand what sex was. He would brag about his sexual conquests with random women. He would go into vivid detail. He even told me things about when he was with my mom things, no child needs to hear Alan's. Dad reminded me of my own bring up long since deeply repressed memories My father was an angry man, a racist man. Man who didn't understand the inappropriateness of sexual remarks to a young child, in fact, Entire family was like that my grandparents on my father's side, which is probably why. As soon as I was old enough, I cut off contact completely with that side. My family There was an incident that I never told a soul about. I will

at my grandparents house on my father's side, an there was some sort of joke. They found hilarious. I don't more specifically what it was or what it originated from. But I do know that it was at my expense it had to do with. Me being a baby. This is not an adult when I search He was not a baby either. As a young adolescent boy. As well old enough to understand that I was the butt of the joke, and I wasn't happy about it that's when my grandmother, pulled out her breast in front of everyone. Blocking me to suckle at it like a baby and laughing uncontrollably. My father and grandfather and aunt I thought it was a riot hilarious, so this was branching off from his regular level of today very hostile tell dad what he wants to hear or he's going to get angry style of abuse to

got another rail. Ok, you you, kids start! You can't show a kid to private parts like that's wrong, that's not right! He can't have sex with a prostitute, while your son's in the room. Do you find that, like looking back. Do you look it now and think that perhaps his b, behavior towards you, as his son was in the pro in terms of a father son relationship, it was more, it seemed more like a. He was treating you like a buddy or a friend to his yeah and that kind of thing: you hit the nail on the head and well my definition of what you do friend and what you'd, especially with friends with, is not even that level but to him I really feel like it was right and it's kinda like Iphone, like I couldn't tell anyone anything of what was happening

what it was doing, because anything you said something that made him angry. I'm scared of him like. I was legitimately scared of him. He would yeah. He tries his hand and I would be carrying in the corner crying before he even had a chance to bring it down. So I was I love him at the time, so I had no idea one the scale of what was taking place, but then to what what tax play, do about it all who here to talk to so I kind of just severed all ties with him completely. Move to why an change my phone number- and that was it, at what age did you do this out? he moved away when I would have been so. I was still talking to him into my early 20s and I I started saving app for maybe like tanks, and now we would be a good seven I guess, since I've spoken to him and then before that year, gyro.

A year and I gradually just spaced out from there and now I've gotten to where, where I want talk to him at all, I had change my number and I'll just get voice mails every second, I wire. Fn answering my calls answer your fn five an my my little brother at the moment my stepbrother Paso visits Maine. And he showed me some of the messages that my father sends him and it's in relation. Step mom and that's all along the lines of you. Little choice. And then message to You need to tell me who your mom's fucking now I know she's talking someone in your fucking number and I feel sorry for it like he just has to copy that. Now, but in the back of my mind, like it says, say, but That's all that he's had to put up with an and that's all that he's had to deal with it. Look at it.

Is it too late to do something about it or is it, One of those things where ok, I've just put it all behind me and I've moved on from all these yeah. I think about things that he's done, then, can picture them river to his, ok, but what are you doing like? I? I spent so long trying to well to deal with it. And I hear you medication for depression and things like that, an tunnel So if I just come good an, I found the balance and I've found. The right medication, then I don't like not wanting to open that can of worms up again yeah. I understand that completely. No, it's not it's, not your responsibility to do that. You did do anything wrong. So I sort of look at that. MIKE Look, I I truly believe to this day that he did sexually assault that girl- and I I know the things that he showed me an, but he's done in. I mean I, I know the instances that it's kind of like it's.

Maybe that knows all these things and everyone else just thinks he's a vial, get angry and makes say yeah, yeah, You have to you have to take care of yourself before you can help anyone else so yeah. You need ok, if you want to forward and do some about it, and you are doing something about it by coming here and telling your story, but if you want to take that extra step, to make sure that he doesn't hurt anyone else, then to you and you have to be okay with the if you're setting yourself down when you do that yeah, let me ask you something: did. You ever tell anyone else about this summer. He's my partner knows about it. 'cause, obviously that lead into the situation of. But we're gonna get to you that way. You have that you can introduce me to your dad. This is that. Well now I we started talking, and I told everything about it and and she had a low symbolized troubled childhood as well with similar

stories, so she knows- and my brother doesn't know specifics, but he knows there's things in the kids shouldn't say or have to deal with, but what about yeah your when you look at your life now as a man, that's an adult and you probably have your. You know your your whole life together and a partner in a job and all they all these things. Do you think that this childhood that you went through and this father that you had affected your life in some way negatively yeah. So I quite a difficult couple of years. Immediately after I die severed, all ties and it's difficult to uh. Then why 'cause you know, logically, that you don't want to be around this person. You don't want to hear you what's best, for you is to be as far away from this person as possible, but I don't know it. It still feels like there's a connection there to your dad, even how your dad's, not a good

so I I was on antidepressants for a couple of years, as I talked to Alan I found that I was asking him questions that weren't really directed at him and his story. They were really questions for me. I was asking myself how my relationship with my father affected me, Did you feel like a somewhat incomplete or even someone as a failure, for not having a family and having this other thing, in your life that isn't really. You know it's been difficult. I I have trouble maintaining relationships with people because it's difficult to put it down

I think, but I I should look. I was raised by someone who only cared about himself and then my partner says to me sometimes she's like look. Sometimes you need to stop and think about other people, so it looked So I just think about myself and then my mind completely just makes that connection to him straight away, and it's like I sit down pal made that something I don't know I've taken from it. That's where an it becomes hard because things that He told me an not like when you grow up and learn what's right and wrong, and things like that, but he I was just an abusive racist and then now obviously were in that uh I'm, where prices on the big thing in the news and everything and you sit there and yet think he would just fall off and let the indian night by faith, no reason other than the fact he was indian and I know that's wrong and I'd. I would person never do that. But it's difficult for me to try understand why anyone would do that. So

My mom put it in a good way, the other day without knowing the specifics, she's, not look, it just seems everyone that's come contact with them, requires medication and he's the one that true I paid to death ok hold on. That's really looking, probably checks out, but rainfall here made other members of the family yeah wow yeah, I mean so for Maine you know, I know you don't know my story, but for me, when I severed ties with my father, it was about completely, going the opposite of everything. He'd ever stood for so If he believed a, I believe, be if he wanted this. I wanted that it was almost like. I didn't want to be associated in any way with that person because that was something that was? toxic and horrible yeah. Thank you. That's a great way of putting it like that. Yeah

it's kind of unlearning everything that he taught, because it is just ludicrous wrong. An it talk, sick, I'm trying to, Ray Wyatt to the person that I want to be an not the person that he feels like well, if everyone should be yeah that the good way of putting it- kind of he's going. I eyes automatically in the back, I in the wrong way based right by right, but at the in time. I'm also completely one hundred percent aware that genetics is a thing yeah and I'll. This things in my personality. That scare me from the time does that ever happened to you yeah look little idiosyncrasy that stand out things. In my mind that he particularly did just have sound silly, but it on I'm doing them and I'm conscious like I'll rub my You know something in a way that I'd, remember, he'd, always do and I'll

how's that I'm doing it and it just troubles me for no logical reason, just even things as small, as that, it's like just a small trigger no ship- but I don't know if it makes me think of him at the time when I do it but yeah I try to specific, and even I have a daughter now and another one on its way in October, and I'm always conscious when I talk to her when she does something wrong like 'cause, I was absolutely terrified of him and I would do when would be cowering in the corner like if my kids ever coward or something like that that made it would break me like I I wouldn't be able to deal with that. So every discipline thing I do it goes over and over in my mind, comparing it to how he did it and what he did without the but the sexually orientated things that does not logical reason that he,

I would like right, I think, he's just sick and legitimately sick, but even just the verbal abuse in the physical abuse even that's. I've just goes over and over in my head with everything I do Ellen thanks for sharing your story at its I'm so sorry that you went through what you went through, but I think that a lot of people have and it's no tell these stories so that we all can now I was happy to talk to us a big fan of the show I listened to your listen, I'm still in school class and generation Y and Turkey Karaj. In a bit of a crime, not like missing all that delighted stories. On that I mean now. I do I do love the work you do

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three dollars and thirty three cents a month with an annual subscription. Again, that's not, dot com slash v, e n sword bit in more places online get Norton secure VPN, so you're connected to online privacy for as low as three dollars and thirty three cents a month with annual subscription just go to Norton dot com. Slash v end. Sword terms, apply. Are there any differences in what a boy would experience as opposed girl in terms of coping with this act of violence, oftentimes young boys will feel additional shame from being sexually abused in that state field, that's there now and for a lot of young boys that adds increase. Chainmen will deterred them from coming forward and talking about the abuse. So

It's an interesting point, this for young boy, that's going through puberty or is prepubescent that doesn't understand. What's actually happening fear of being labeled. A homosexual is a strong one, an makes them hide what happened to them right Definitely a bit of leeway. Just logistically, don't get me wrong, she's, a great mom, but hard for a single parent to keep an eye on their child. Twenty four slash, seven! certain age where kids just want to break free and explore? I broken free on this day. Running away from my mom and she was looking the other way. I was in an arcade,

Well, it was a tent really set up with a bunch of arcade video games. It was at the daycare Youth Fair, a rather large event which came to town every year. In the spring they were rides and carnival food and a section filled with animals. Pride, pigs and chickens that had won a blue ribbon for being the most perfect version of there she's a young boy, one of the things that interested me most wasn't the animals it was. The arcade it was full of the latest video games. This was before game consoles were in every huh. And there was one game that really caught my eye. It was a first person shooter, and you were some creepy old mansion, the thing on the screen. You were shooting worse,

Schools are spiders sometimes even innocent victims that had been captured and chained up by these schools. Are spiders or ghosts or whatever? Whatever you accidentally shoot one of these victims. You got negative points, but the first thing that would happen when you shot a victim was that their clothes would fly off. It was a weird feature to put video game, but nevertheless my young prepubescent mind was intrigued. Of course, if you kept shooting, then could be some over the top amounts of blood. Spatter bullet riddled, teams, would eventually start falling off in stunning, eight bit graphic glory. This was my favorite video game and I was playing it shooting digital demons and victims in this How did Anne Noisy Arcade tent when I felt something behind me?

first, I thought someone was inadvertently invading my personal space. That happens a lot in South Florida so many people from so many different countries that don't share the same need to have invisible protective bubble around you at all times, this person was right up against me, it was really uncomfortable so much so then I stopped playing the video game altogether and I completely turned around behind me was a much older man only in his mid 30s, He was wearing short shorts, the kind that were popular in the 80s and his fully erect penises protruded from the front of his shorts. He had been rubbing up against me from behind. He made eye contact with me, or what felt an eternity before walking off towards the back of the tent.

Looked around for a second stunned that no one had just seen this everyone. Who is playing their games, oblivious, embarrassed and humiliated ran off to find my mom again, to once again look for that invisible protective bubble. Thanks for the call- and I don't really know how to start, we do, can you just let me know you're comfortable with in terms of? Do you want me to say your name at all? Do you want to use a pseudonym? Do you not want to use any name at all any stuff like that Denny's, not my real name, but you can use Danny. Oh ok, ok and you ' What is the six hundred and sixty one area code? Where are you based out of California,

So I'm just going to open it up for you and if you could just go ahead and tell me what Okay, I was thirteen years old, and it was two thousand and one junior high school district called late in the year it was October. No, it's November, it was right after Halloween was late, for Can you make it all the way in tatian stuff? And I guess a little back not about where I live. First. I wanna say without sounding rude, like redneck e place, an I'm not quite uh, it's a truck, stop and a lot of people, Oh here still like we're in southern California, in guys waving confederate the people here It's like dairy out of Stephen King book. You know these people,

there's something wrong with the people here when you ended up the school, and my very first hey there I got called into some or in tatian thing in the library with woman history, teachers, I think she was wanna, say counselor at the end of it. The principle walked in and shoes. Is short little woman with everyone. 'cause, she kind of looked like one without makeup. What I'm sorry you broke up there a little bit the colour and uber loompa you know like really Wonka she would she look like Oompa Loompa. Without all the makeup in the costume anyway, she started talking to me and you she said we were office who is the day after Halloween, but I still had like mail polish on my fingers and it wasn't like a state. Human or anything. It was literally just but not gonna day after Halloween it hadn't come off yet

you sent me down and she says I want to ask Something are you gay and I said no and she sat down at the front of her desk and I was sitting on the chair in front of it. She said unbutton her jeans. They were like. Mom jeans that really high ones that go like way above your waist, so the zipper was like seven inches long. I was thirteen the most ever done was I had made out with a girl. She she made me go down on. It is Axel number, the smell of her clothes. Feel the roughness of her jeans, and I feeler Nipper up against my shoulder and I for about an hour, and then she sent me back to class,

I'm a doctor, Chad, Ling, I'm a clinical psychologist who specialize in forensic cases, in the study from two thousand three hundred and seventy six percent of recorded sexual assault victims fifteen years old or female, and only twenty four percent or male Research suggests that the sexual abuse of boys is far more common than what was once I really believed ' There are several studies that show that women report being sexually abused as children about fifty to sixty percent of the time, whereas males only reported about thirty percent of the time, indicating that the problem for boys is much more widespread and much more hidden, I asked Doctor Lewis White Boys seemed to be much less likely to come forward. A lot of it has to you with the fear of being labeled a homosexual or a future sexual abuse,

One thing I would like to point out is: I don't want to give we give the misperception that individuals who were sexually abused or destined to go offenders, adults, in other words, what we see amongst mail. Who sexually offend. I believe the statistic is approximately sixty to seventy percent of them have been sexually abused. However, when we look at individuals who have been sexually, uses children an I'm referring to males? In this scenario only ten percent of those who want to sexually offended adults, and that's interesting too, because that's another yet another reason for victim to stay quiet, the fear of being labeled a future perpetrator exactly what are the long, lasting effects of sexual abuse critically? a lot of shame, a lot of confusion,

and in that I know that this was wrong. However, at the same time, it felt physiologically fluid. What we see a lot of times is when an individual does act out in adulthood, adult crime. Will mirror that of what happened to them either to say age or the same type of Athena in and like I said, these individuals will question their. Their question their own sexuality, which will also me too, a lot, a lot of additional shame in that. Well, if I am gay, that's bad, which just isn't the case it can so we need to difficulties in relationships later and Also a lot of lot of suppression of sexual quest In other words, you know trying to become sexually knowledgeable. In other words, the things

we go through and adolescence. When we begin to ask questions about sexual behavior, sexuality lot of times these individual, may not ask that had a fear or game or the information they believe they've received is just false, are inadequate about what goes on inside the mind of the perpetrator? I mean, I simply just don't understand how someone could intentionally harm a child. Well, it goes back to that same thing of happened to me and although they know that this was wrong, it happened to be, and they also know that it is the logically felt good to be on hello lot of times there the ballot may excuse me, their sexual developments may become stunned if you will to an extent at the age that they were abused and what happens. Is they be

sexualize they become too they'll start to act out sexually. More now, What will happen in adulthood? Is They'll begin to use sexual. Saviors as a coping mechanism and there again, it's very much a cycle of a trigger, triggering their core beliefs a lot of times those core beliefs are going to be. I'm back but I'm defective. I mean adequate in those core, I used to lead to what we call victim stance. Pour me another words from there. They'll they'll go to anger this anger can either be internal anger in that there thinking negative things about themselves or others, but they'll go to what we call the planning stage where they'll start

the ways that they can act out and guess what I remember this sex made me feel good at one time, I'm going to try this and given that a lot of times. They feel sexually attracted two or at the same age that they were sexually offended up on that, see the individual that they act out of pawn. For example, they were offended on by an uncle at age, nine. They may find themselves sexually arouse. Twenty nine year old boys once saved. Get out they didn't go through the guilt and shame of what they what they went through. Oh my god, I I believe I did this. This was a horrible thing. So from there they go into what's known as false promises in excuses. This will never happen again or you know it didn't hurt him or he was a slave. Or you know it. And to me I didn't feel bad at all, and then they

go back into, what's known as the pretend normal. This is the stage where that day, and everything's. Okay, there good guy, they are good person in in the cycle. Just start, oh but a few days later, I had to do some sort of computer project for history class, school? Wouldn't let anybody access computers without that's a good idea in passing, and they wouldn't give me one because it wasn't there at the beginning of year. So please send me back to this woman's office and they told me to her about it, it's going there a few times a the year. It started with mostly me going down on her Eventually, we would start to have sex, mostly a lot of She would cry when she did it, but she knew what this was in, the office in her office.

The CAD office cat is like a computer. Design. We had lived up in the computer room and in the back there was a smaller room with windows blind like blind, you could pull down eventually started, not going to school, I told one person was a friend You told me that she was doing it to another kid to just kidding Trevor. I guess I really want the only ones? How old was this woman had to be thirties early forties but went on for two more months. I start it's not going to school, and- Actually, my parents caught on because we had moved the school still had my old phone number in their records, so calling our new house to tell them that I was true and they were calling our old house so for months, but there is and I was going to school and they thought want to go I don't know how to go to school anymore. I didn't I didn't know what was expected of Maine

let's see I got caught and I so going back to school slow down towards the end of the year getting in a lot of trouble and I can choose trying to avoid attention once I love school never happen again, but I don't really know how to tell anyone. How old were you when you left Domino's, all that's cool. I guess it was not a a month away from turning fourteen It was almost a year are the abuse going on. November. Well, I guess, like this June, It's never something! You could tell someone, you know. My friends in my friend what's happening to other people. He didn't seem to be there was anything wrong with. It Thankfully, remember him by giving me this look like complaining about a woman taking into her office and having sex with you right, How old are you now? I'm almost thirty an did you ever tell anyone else about it other than your friends back then

for a year there. It's not it's, not really something. I want people to know, I know she's not at school anymore, otherwise I would so you've you've kind of tracked down track down where she is now are you years ago. What was that is a cousins graduation. She was superintendent. After that she became a district superintendent, I think so she still around children. Would you You are you're, not a coward. Such a small time, my life is still had such a hold of Maine. I don't know if there So what you wanted to hear man, I'm sorry, no it's it's thank you for your story. I just I'm on how how this is affected you over the course of your life, it's been quite awhile ago, and it's

things to still very much affect you. Do you think it's affected your life and your relationships and you know anything else I haven't, really really hard time getting close to normal and people in. You know I've. I've had relationships, but they usually end because I'm I'm absent and distant. I keep things to myself things bottled up. I'm strange when it comes to sex. I feel like dirty afterwards. Every time I just feel disgusting heavy talk to anyone about this, a psychologist therapist of some sort. No, I don't know how I I don't think I can stand it sitting room and she one week after week. If they knew that it happened to me I don't think I could deal with that kind of shame, and you know, like you, tell someone that you don't forget about it. They don't stop see if you know you're, not just

person anymore. Your kid got molested or so whatever they call it, and I I don't want- come and look at me like that, but you didn't do anything wrong. You know that right, you know what you do anything wrong. This place is sick. And it's towns? Whole fuckin', talented disgusting? It's such a small fucking town people had to have known it could have been just us Do you know any of the other victims. You said there was at least one other kid that you knew about that talk to him, or did you ever find out what he was up to, or you know kind of track him down too. I know that guy. Actually, I don't talk to him, not friends, we don't like each other and she's like you during middle school. He really aggressive with me. Please to fight me and more, like him and his friends to gang up on me. You drink water bottles for texted me and they would chase me home from the bus stop,

I don't know if he knew that I knew, and I don't know if he knew that it was happening in me too, maybe he didn't. He was just angry and he didn't know where else to take it out on I see him around every now and then I don't really know what to say to him. I hate the fuckery. At the same time, I remember we share a connection to some really fuckedup circumstances. I don't know I hope he's. Ok, nobody deserved that other than him. I don't really. I don't really know anybody else I do hope that you know it's point you do. Consider and try to talk to someone about this. It sounds like you, benefit from it. I thought about going to that school and telling them what happened, telling someone if I could just You know, offer you some advice. If you were going to talk to someone other than a therapist, you should definitely make that the police and

the reason. I'm saying that is because I believe Statute of limitations has probably run out on your case, but There are ways to get around that in terms of trying. To get this person to reveal what they did an maybe maybe there are other cases that are more recent, that you know they can find just cause to arrest this person, but I'm really sorry about what you went through. Nobody deserves an an. I just hope: you're going to be okay command. What are just will Kohl's on off me. You know figure it out I'm not gonna. Let it define me. I do think it's time that I talked to the boys and I do think that it's. Whether she's doing it or not? But someone looks into it right and someone starts asking questions 'cause, what she's doing

she had this position of power she's supposed to be when you can trust she's using that power yeah. I think I think I do need to talk to the police so I don't want her to do it. Anybody else. Thank you for Your story. I really appreciate it. You're going to be right, Thank you. these two men events and in our lives, can affect us in different ways. Sometimes they can destroy us, but sometimes people figure out a way, not only to survive but to turn horrible event into something positive by embarking.

On a path to bring the perpetrator to justice. It takes an incredible amount of strength, but before that strength comes the anger. Or faith, play a role in shaming young victims and keeping them quiet very much so in that oftentimes figure. A religious authority, in other words priest will use the context. Religion or God to keep the victim quiet. In other words, you don't tell this. This would hurt you

is bad. Maybe you tell on me such as that, so we spoke, only in the wonder e office. We did an I had never met you before in person- that's correct. This is Clemente assuming you're talking about sort of the story that ended up getting me into the FBI. Jim is a fascinating guy. Is one of those kind of guys that you needed a party and he starts telling you his story and halfway through you think, he's bullshitting you, Is the story sounds so unbelievable, but it's all one hundred percent true besides being a retired supervisory special agent or profiler for the FBI he's also a tv producer. Worked on several shows. You may have heard of criminal minds, manhunt Unabomber and the key of Jon Benet Ramsey. And since he's not busy enough, he also has a podcast on the wondering network called real crime profile

actually, where we met at the Wondry office, proceeded to tell me a story which was so incredible that I immediately invited him to come here and tell it to you. Yes, when I was fifteen, I was at a campus you I camp and the director that camp was like you know, a tough guy. He was also my basketball coach and he sort of ran the camp with an iron fist and at the end of camp. He. He told me that I was the hardest worker at the camp and because of that, he wanted me to stay in close down the camp with him, and I thought wow. You know you know. That's like, actually thinks that I'm a good person- and I looked up to him- and I thought he was a man's man. So I was very you know, taken aback

on the one hand, an very happy on the other hand, so I stayed back in the camp, an help them close, down, leysdown me and him something like nine. In acres. No. Nowhere about sixty miles away from my home and I unwanted It said well, let's go into town and he actually was, basically, teaching me how to drive. I didn't have my permit yet, but let me drive the rock while he went to a bar and he let me sit up at the bar with him and he bought me a coke, but he drank and then he got two six packs to go. He actually let me drive the truck home, which I was like wow. This is amazing. You know, because as I said, I didn't even have my learners permit yet and then, when we got back, He started giving me beer and talking about sex, and then

ask me questions about things that I've done and I was really naive and really hadn't done much at all, and he gave me porn o magazines and he talked to me about masturbation and talk to me about sex, and he said you know, don't be embarrassed about any of that stuff and all that. So in the end he said here take these magazines and go in your room and I did and then he came in and he started going through the magazines with me and then he started touching Maine and he said you know I was shaking my whole body was shaking in just I didn't know what to do and I froze, and I I was embarrassed 'cause I was shaking and he told me you're just being a kid and many kept doing more stuff and I wanted to just disappear and I felt like

I wasn't even in my body at the time, and I wanted to just kind of curl up into the corner and go away, but he came back and he did it again and again and again I was alone out: there's no cell phones, there's no regular phones, there was nothing in it and he was my ride home. So when he did take me home a few days later, you know I wanted him to a warm to go in and tell my dad and have him beat him to death with a baseball bat, but I figured I would. I would probably get in trouble for doing that and also he would tell my mom and that would be horrible 'cause. I didn't want her to know 'cause. We didn't talk about that kind of stuff and I had no idea that boys could be victimized long story short. I just basically held it to myself when we started school again. I went to our guidance. Counselor was a priest and I told him- and he told me say ten: our fathers and ten hail Marys and never speak of this again. I absolve you of your sins,

so that just added to my guilt, if anything years later as an FBI agent, I'd be the one to investigate that very priest and the catholic Archdiocese from New York is just now, forty years later, paying money to the victims who that priest had victimized my high school, so he sent me to that camp and then he made me feel guilty about what happened to me there. But what happened after that was. Bill did really well in school. I competed in sports. I felt very isolated from people and especially my mother. Does, she knew something was wrong and I couldn't tell her what it was so I ended up going to law school and then becoming a prosecutor and when in the prosecutors office. My brother called me and he told Maine. You know now that you're a prosecutor. We should do something about about that director from the camp where kids and I was like what do you mean, and he said well one day

how we weren't allowed to go into his office. Well, when everybody was gone, I snuck into his office, and I found three shopping bags filled with Polaroid pictures of him. Molesting boys, and I said I thought I was the only one so the next day I went to the F B. I N Y p D task force on child sexual victimization and I told them what happened and they started best to gate Shin and they didn't investigation for a while. They told they found out that he worked as a teacher and a coach at thirteen different catholic schools over the course of twenty three years, but each time there was an allegation they confronted him. He was find on the spot, and let him just walk away, and he just went too and uh scroll down the street and start it all over again, and it's just horrific thing. I don't know if anybody's seen the keepers, but it's the same kind of for some reason. Instead of

actually dealing with it. They would rather just let it go away, let it be in somebody elses jurisdiction, somebody elses school somebody elses neighborhood, but they never do anything about it. An that's what happened with this guy. So how old were you when this first happened? I was fifteen how many years did you keep the secret ten years wow? I was twenty five when I went to the FBI task Force I asked Doctor Chad lowing if he thinks boys internalize their sexual abuse. More often than girls it's really hard to say, because so many of 'em just will never come out will come out with it. I think we ca your likelihood of acting out later in males than we do females, I read somewhere that it's reported that sixty percent of women, but only twenty six percent of men had told someone about the

that occurred when they were children. I would say that that's probably accurate when, when I went to the task force, and they found out all this stuff. They interviewed kids from all his teams in his classes and they couldn't find a single boy who would come forward and say they were victim and so our frustration that came back to me and said we'd like to. Why are you up and have you go talk to him and I was like? Are you kidding me no way, I'm going to sit down and have a civil conversation with this guy. I've had dreams of eating 'em in an alley with a machine gun that kind of stuff. But I can't sit down across from and have a conversation, so I said alright and after about eighteen months, the investigation kind of just withered away because they couldn't find anybody, and so I just sort of accepted the fact that he was never going to be brought to justice. But at that time my boss came into me and said Jim. I just found out

You haven't filed your paperwork for the New York State BAR. You were supposed to do that. You had eighteen months to do it and the time is running out and I hadn't done it. I didn't so this, but deliberately I hadn't done it because you have to list every place. You ever lived or worked in your life, and I didn't want to put the camp down, and I want to put him down. I didn't want him to know where I have to what I was doing or anything about me and so still sort of in that victim mode, but that night I said I resolved it. Look you're an adult now you probably nowhere near this place and you don't have to sorry about it anymore and just be a man and just do it. So I called in sick. The next day I spent the whole day filling out this twenty five page paper application and you have to at your law school transcripts to it. So since I just six blocks away from the law school. I walk Fordham LAW school walked into the law school registers office to get them to attach. My transcripts to this paper work

and who do you think is sitting in the desk in the registrar's office as the night assistant to our registrar but Michael J O'Hara, the guy who molested Maine? and I mean it's just unbelievable. I mean I literally my jaw hit the floor. I was frozen in place. I didn't know what to do. Half of me want to leap across the, can strangle him in the other. Half of me wanted to run away, but he said oh Jim yeah. I notice you graduate from here a couple years ago, he's sitting right next to the alumni files with my life history and all the things that I just didn't want to have to you know, possibly let him know about me, he already knew and so the dean walked in and I asked her to personally handle my file and I'm being in her office with there for a couple minutes and wanting to write down on a piece of paper, he's a child Lester fire him, but I just couldn't do it and when I walked out, He said to me, oh by the way,

I was really sorry to hear about your mother's death and I just did it for me. 'cause. The reason why I had a strained relationship with my mother was the fact that he molested me- and I didn't want to tell her. I felt it would break her heart and I didn't want that to happen, so that was never resolved before she died and I was a terrible thing and he's just evoking that. In Maine and he got me really Pist off and so I went outside and I called the FBI, and I say, remember. You said you wanted wire me up. Well, I know where he is right now come on here wire me and it came out and they wired me up, and I went back in and talk to him. I set up to meet him that night or the bar we sat down and we talked and they told me Jim. We want you to do. We want you to tell him that when you were a kid you were

You didn't understand what he was trying to do that he was just trying to teach you and you judged. Harshly and you shouldn't have, and now you realize that you should never have treated him that way, and so that's what they wanted me to do, and I was like whoa, that's crazy, but they said, look guys like this. They know that society of hors them an that they have no sense of community and so they're, always looking somebody who will not judge them and please just try- so we sat down in the bar and we got beers and immediately. So what was it that you wanted to talk to me about it, and I was like trying to use my new. Business in the situation that I was wearing a wire and that there were two FBI agents and two detectives sitting in the bar with us. I was use my nervousness as part of my story him and just saying look. I've never talked to anybody about this in all these years and you're the only one I could talk to about it, but let me at least drink some of this beer. First

and he immediately says: well you whirlwind you can never stand on your own two feet: trying to reset that that imbalance of power that he had when I was a kid and so I played did you know he said I was all on the teacher. You correct me if I'm wrong and he starts talking it's about sex right yeah and it's about what happened between us yeah and it went on like that and I said I took our use. The lines of the FBI told me and I said: look I didn't understand it then, and I'm sorry, I treated you so badly. I reacted so badly and he said: that's okay. I was hard on you and I should have been it. You know you went through this whole thing and and he started telling me about one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine when he worked at a orphanage Anne, how he would take the night shift, so he could molest the kids at night 'cause. Nobody else was around. And then his next job and his next job in his next job and every single one of them, he molested kids and he told

about forty, seven kids by name and date and time and place, and it was just discussed. But I knew it was good evidence. The only thing is that all of the cases he talked about were way beyond the statute of limitations. He was very careful, but I'm not talking about anything current, and so we went on to have to meet six different times before He finally gave me enough information about a kid that was in a current team. The agents went out and interviewed all the members of that team. Nobody came forward. The agent didn't give up, he went back to the principal and said: was there anybody who who got injured and couldn't be on the team anymore. Whatever and she said well, there's one kid who didn't make the team and he was the score keeper and he went and interviewed that kid and the kid disclosed, who was molested and then he said, and by the way number one day when I was leaving there was this other kid from the team and he was walk

in and as soon as he saw me, his eyes went wide and then he looked down and from that day forward he never talk to me again at school, and I'm pretty sure the same thing happened to him, so he went back to the other guy and sure enough. He, close, so we put together a case and he was prosecuted and I got an opportunity to talk to the judge before the sentencing an the judge had no, video of the background and how deep is this guy was, but he had actually hold the probation officer that the prosecution had promised him probation and so the probation office simply said: recommendation probation That was a lie, but I got the judge to change five years in prison. It was a five year. Split, and so he only served about eighteen months and

while he was there, he sent out postcards to his family and friends. Basically saying that he was on sabbatical in Europe, so he had a friend send out postcards from different places in Europe, so that his family would think that he was just on vacation the whole time, but I was able to confront him in the courtroom: walk out of the judge's chambers with the judge before sentencing he was like you know. Why did you do this? I was going to quit. Teaching anyway, he's trying shake my hand I was like. Are you kidding Maine? This is just slap on the wrist I'm going to be watching you throughout the rest of you. Miserable life. If you ever go you're a kid again ever You don't want to see what happens and just turned around and walked out slam the court door in his face. An was a total see change in my life, instead of feeling afraid

you know without any power and self conscious and guilty and shameful about all this. I felt like this. Guy is sick and he took advantage of Maine and now he's paying for it, so that was great and then the FBI. And it took me out to lunch at the end of the case, an while we're having lunch. He slid. A piece of paper across to Maine was actually twenty five pages an. I said. What's this and he said it's an application to the FBI, an. I said to him. I actually said this: they would still take me, even though I was a victim, he goes, Of course we would. You are the victim of crime and by the way, your prosecute your attorney and you did great job, undercover and you transcribed all the tapes, and you did all this great work. You help make this case absolutely, and so I got it

the FBI Academy. Year later, I was in it's about a year, long application process, and while I was in the academy that agent was transferred up to Boston and they actually put Maine as my first assignment on the same sexual exploitation of children, task force with the Nypd and FBI in New York City. I went from trying to hide it from everybody. I knew to working with people who knew what my back story was so I never had to worry about it again and now I can use my experience to help other kids who go through the same thing and help prevent people from having to suffer like that, I mean this guy affected, not only your relationship with your mother but altered the whole trajectory of your life, if you think about it in a lot of ways he did what's good about. That is that when I was a kid I always read detective novels, I love Sherlock Holmes. The hardy boys mysteries

I love. I wanted to figure things out whether it had to do with microscopic Lee or in the universe. An I think. That's one of reasons why I was drawn to be a prosecutor, I think I always wanted to be a detective, but I always knew my parents wanted me to go to college and I didn't think much about. I didn't think that you know people went to college and then became cops and then became detectives. But with the agent told me was not only was he an attorney, but that FBI agents just federal detectives- and I was like wow- that's great- I would to do that, because I always wanted to be a detective. So in a way he helped me realize my own dream. What is statute of limitations for for this kind of crime. Well, back in those days for certain of those crimes, it was three years certain crimes. It was

five years in certain seven years, but seven was the max for the most egregious crimes and it's really bad because we know from research that the average it takes a child to disclose is twenty years, and twenty five percent don't disclose until thirty years later, so to have statue of limitations of five or seven years is pretty useless. Now, since then in a lot of change in statutes across the country and Federale, so now Federale UK disclose up until the age of twenty five and there's also some laws that take into account when people represa memory about it and then recover it later that they can then told the statute of limitation and so that might be only in civil cases, but there's a whole bunch of attempts to for exam in Brooklyn, NY there's been a number of attempts to try to get the statue limitations extended an both the catholic Church,

and the jewish synagogues fight that incredibly hard politically, because neither of them wants to open up the statue of limitation so that they then get barrage with all the complaints that people were prevented from bring, during all those years because of statue limitations Are you still angry? I mean for this guy to have destroyed so many lives. You know a lot of these forty, some people, you said that he molested, who knows what became of them and maybe not a lot of them successful in finding these demons. As you are, or is this still piss, you off yeah well. This is me off on a number of levels. He pisses me off. Of course, what he did was horrific and the forty those are the ones he told me the first night. Turns out he molested over two hundred boys over the course of his career

and there are a number of them like that, in fact the most prolific offenders are those. Well offenders who offend against adolescent boys and while other offenders may offend against two or three people, those of there's may offend against two or three hundred people, and that means that we got a really prolific offender off the street. So that's a good thing, but what pisses me off the most is one the churches response to this and to the school's response to this, If you watch the keepers, there's a pivotal moment in which the new principle comes in after sister Kathy gets sent back to, she gets basic he sent away from the school and she's going to teach at a public school nearby, because she confronted father, Masco and then new principle, fine out about Father Masculine she's, getting complaints from different parents about what he did and she says I went up to him and I gave him fifteen minutes to pack his stuff and leave the school,

as if that was appropriate, and he did was he went to another school anymore. More people and more people and more people, and He had been another school before that and there was an allegation. And it was an allegation by a boy, so they sent him to an all girl school and he molested dozens of girls there. So that is- what pisses me off more because an offender, an offender in east trying to commit a crime, that's his motivation, but the school, the church is supposed to protect children. It supposed to be their safe haven and instead of being that safe haven. What they did was they protected the offender and they protected their reputation. They did not protect the children that were in their charge so that still pisses me What would you say to someone who's gone, through something similar. An may still be keeping it a secret. Well I'll tell people that

everybody deals with it differently and I've met literally thousands of men the course of my career, I'm now part of an organization called male survival which an international organization, and I actually first spoke it survivor. I think in nineteen, no sorry, two thousand and one and When I gave my first talk there, the guy sitting in the front row who got very upset during the course of my talk, and I thought I put a mental note to see him at the break and see what I said to piss him off and when I down to talk to him. He was like he wanted to run away and his wife was there holding him and saying, tell him tell him, and he said I was molested by Michael J O'Hara too and he was in a small school. There were thirteen boys in his class and O'Hara had molested eleven of them and it is insidious what he did, because what he did as the first day he handed out a survey to all the kids in the class what their favorite meal,

Ice cream, candy magazine whatever. So he could get to know and then he won by one went up to. And said hey, I see you like soccer. Well, I'm actually soccer coach. The soccer gear, and you know I see you have your favorite magazine was sports illustrated Swimsuit Edition. Well, I got a lot better magazines in that. And through one by one grooming them sexual victimizing them and keeping them quiet. So I would say that to anybody out there who's been through this male or female, that you're, not alone. There are literally millions of US millions of survivors of this and you can go on and you live, a great life. You can be successful. You can live your dreams. The best thing you can do for yourself is to deal with it. You don't necessarily have to speak out in public. But you should talk to someone. There are plenty of

therapists in organizations out there to help you there's male survivor there stop it now, stop it now dot org there's safe for athletes, dot org there's. A number of organizations that have information, about their education, model policies for organizations, because unfortunately, every single youth serving organization is a target rich environment for these offenders, it's going to draw not only the good people that want to help kids, but it's going to draw the people who want to take advantage of kids, and so you should. Do everything in your power to try to talk to someone about it because you don't deserve to be suffering inside You deserve to have a real life. You deserve to have fun and build relationships and do great things with your life. I'm living proof, Jim. Thank you so much for telling us your story little problem, while telling these stories, I shared a few things that happened to me throughout.

Life that I'd never shared publicly before, while those experiences pale in comparison to what some kids have gone through. I shared my stories because I want those listening to understand that things like this can happen to anyone the world. Is full of evil and you don't have to be embarrassed or ashamed, if so, nothing bad happens to you. It's not your fault and you can let it control you or you can own it and derive strength from the fact that you survived. This story isn't over in a few weeks, I'll be on Jim Clemente's program, real crime profile and will be talking about you, Do you have a story you'd like to share. Did this episode help you in anyway, we want to know, call us

plus one nine hundred and fifty four eight hundred and eighty nine six thousand eight hundred and fifty four and until then stay safe,