Tim Ferriss, the host of "The Tim Ferriss Show" podcast and the author of several best-selling books, including "The 4-Hour Workweek" and "Tribe of Mentors," has built an entire empire around offering life-hacking advice, but when someone suggested he try meditation, he resisted for a while. He tried various forms, then eventually dove head first into doing a 10-day silent retreat, where he came face-to-face with a long-buried childhood trauma that made him re-evaluate how he cared for himself.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
There are other pass. You can choose, you can choose the path of light and love and forgiveness toward yourself, and if you told me this a year ago that that could be developed, I would if I would not have believed it, but I right now today, feeling like living proof that it is possible it you have to do the work you are going to have to face lot opinion, but if you put in the Work- and you focus new dedicate yourself too- that is top priority, that it can be done for maybe see the tent, and happier your down here. a people we have a very, very interesting and, for me at least, quite surprised, and moving episode this week my guest is TIM Ferris, I suspect. Pretty much everybody knows who TIM is, but just in case the man has published five
number one best sellers clean before our work week before our body before our chef tools Titans and his new one tribe of men Torres he's also got a a huge podcast. The TIM Ferris Show, and a blog and lots of other stuff on this path There were primarily talking about his. We will talk a little bit about his new book, the tribe of mentors, but damn primarily I can about his reasonably new. Let's just say newly intensified. Adaptation habit and and I would say radically intensified and its brought up some really powerful, important, painful stuff for him and so were sort of you're gonna, hear a pretty significant public figure at a very interesting point in his life and persons.
development and he holds. Very little. If anything back in this interview, which I think is a credit to him because they gets can be useful to a lot of people. So big thanks to him in advance and thanks to you for listening here, go to Paris, nice final, major man pleasure by travelling following you were for a long time. Likewise empire you ve built continue to build its very very impressive. Accidental career of mine have accident d really feel like it with you just gotta, backed in it. I do I do. I never had any plans to write at all. Certainly that's what acted as a springboard for the pot gas. Everything else. The promise I maids to myself. When I graduated from colleagues that I would never write anything longer than an email ever again after my senior thesis almost killed me. the size of your recent books with the wood Surprise the ogre you yes, would be a nod to the complete
failure of that promise to myself. So I've been hearing stories of late- and I know you've talked about it publicly about your service says with meditation. So I want to talk about your new book for sure and actually some of the other, as well. But if it's ok with you, I love to start with your meditation peregrinations, what's goin on paragraph. I know I'm sorry related to a Paragon falcon. I think it may. Actually that sounds great effort. I don't know- and I just look- I sought and tourism we don't have to talk about my new book at all. By the way we can do is talk about whatever is most interesting, again girls. I still want to talk about yeah, the amateur when my mentioning the beating that drum for want of. People everywhere are short, yes, meditation summit, very resistant to in some respects, relying on time I feared that a it would be to new age
Hippy, dippy and turn on rigorous. That make sense, for the scientific method and all the things that has brought us. I appreciate the extent that humans can be objective liability to objectively says data evidence and living in the Bay area for seventeen years- I've since moved? But I was exposed to a lot of people who were anything but any of those things who very, often at the same time were proselytize for any number things did. We do fire sticks, dream, gathers dream, catchers, meditation right right and I often say: meditations been the victim of the worst marketing campaign, Redhaired ever terrible, terrible terrible. So now, when I'm trying to, Explain why meditate to someone who is equally unemployed, by the branding heritage of this word in English,
I might say something like a mine. It's a bath, it's warm bath for your mind, but at the time For many many years I had attempted meditation books and lived in Japan for a year when I was fifteen as exchange student, which totally changed my life and There was forced meditation, although of course in Japanese, they call it exactly that at the beginning and and of Judah practice. And I saw how that impacted. My performance, but it served more. So is a visualization practice for me, and I was always very fascinated by sports performance and competed from, I myself and I would Indeed, the abstract and studies related to the transfer. say visualization to sports performance free throws in basketball, skiing, you name it I win
meditation was, and pitched too much later as a means of decreasing anxiety, the form it took, which was following the breath or visualizing candle. Or phone the blank there, many different types that I attempted I seem to be my sport can jump and projects for you. you can jump in oil. You had anxiety. I did I've? I've always is good. You don't preach active. Somebody was anxiety by the way I mean yeah yeah me too I've had a lot of exciting depression, more or my a new judgment, but you resent as like a ball or some. Seventy super confident of done well, you can be confident thanks, anxious, that's true. Yes, I write I've done a lot of work in the last few years last five years in particular, including tools outside of but related to meditation. So I do not feel anxious Reno in general, not just this moment, but there was a point and of all the salts jump to the
The movie trailer seen light openness been approved for all audiences, we have to Ferris. Writing with great difficulty that for our chef, which was the first major acquisition by Amazon, publishing which Amazon then announced in the New York Times with the acquisition and title for our stuff. and for those who are familiar. Amazon was going to effectively compete at the head against publishers for the recruitment of talent. I e authors this is and so on in this created quite a lot of fear uncertainty in doubt in publishing world which at a number of effects on my experience, I I was willing to take that risk. I like being first first person to try things. Sometimes that works out, and sometimes you just
and up the charging over the hill and catching all the arrows, for it was the ladder in this case mostly, and I don't regret making the decision based on information ahead of time. Nothing was red session, but the book Even as I was writing it, I knew that it was not illegal, boycotted by Barnes Noble and some of the almost all of the book, retailers, but but also the Big Box go target and so on, which I had foreseen Some writing a blog, which is always difficult for me of infinitely greater comply. Stephen any of my previous books first for color book, I somehow good idea to learn photography by taking a third of the photographs myself. and we're taking a thousand plus photographs in this book does a classic him Ferris classic MIKE here. Let me I'm choking on this. Let me just a five more. My mouth
and I was excited by the learning prospect of doing these may new things I underestimated just how hard they were and some in the production process. I began to resort to an old friend, slash, foe friend of why images stimulants. So I think we are. Have our molecules, you and mom, appeal was never I'll call. Thank God, because I am alcoholism and in my family that's really. straight lives, have seen first hand. I can wreck Doesn't it doesn't pour me too, the precipice very fortunately not often stimulants, so things like cocaine on appeal, but high school through wrestling actually was introduced by an older student to something called easier stack, which was a federal caffeine, an aspirin while Edwin that's the diet was often,
uses a diet often used as a diet drug, but it's when you combine. Easier and I'm not recommending this. I'm doing I'm actually advising against this. It's it's very much, a one plus one. thus one equals twelve have a number of overlapping biochemical effects that are very, very powerful it had such a profound effect on my endurance and I started using it as this other student did every day and then again twice a day and then it got through today which somebody pollution of the ethics we're doing for that loss. Flash forward too for our chef I've tried very hard to wean myself off of that dependence because it had had some very pronounced. side effects, but I'm burning candle of events. The deadline is highly compress easily take three years per buckler. Recently, that's change, but for me for my first, several books is three years a book. Basically
they decide to do this one in a year and a half so have increased complexity. Decrease timeline and then knowing that when this bolder is pushed up the hill, if it gets pushed up the hill that it's mostly crickets from retail stamp on he's gonna greed and psychologically, The fool me up measures might occurs, knew how can we may believe it, but you can not allowed to make our course for both of these. I love Carson cursing for two. All blame on long island, but also start taking what two friends of two friends- and I effect later for this little red switch over the counter. Pre work out stimulants and that's certainly dramatic, exactly magnifies my perceived productivity and not necessarily part two
Regrettably, it also equally magnifies any type of anxiety, of course, and the voice in your head just get speedier yet speedier and you're sleeping rush. Doesn't help matters even worse. I I really comes labour and myself, but I push through it. I didn't stop and finished everything there was to finish. The book came out the book Well, we don't have to name names, but a lot of the best seller list. The people are familiar with our support I think we, if there were look under the hood even a little bit subjective, they're, not pure tallies of numbers from Nielsen buckskin, and it did not do as well so light as very proud of the book of still very proud of the book by it. Fell into depression after that and threat. It yeah throughout all of this, and I've battled with bipolar dip
in my tire life, as have many many males in both that of my family and during this period to people A different points, friends of mine suggested some had given up on many times already, which was meditation and my response was always affect I ve been there done that tried. It didn't work Jason, referring to Japan or how sorry foot I tried some deposit meditation. I had read books by junk habits in I read many multiple books because the allure of the supposed benefits that I saw friends experiencing was thing I wanted. Nonetheless, the lock didn't seem to fit the key that I hear what was the problem in your mind, so to speak. I dont think that most of the books I read
I'm not specifically gun cabinets, and I read that when I was about sixteen after I came back from Japan, so I don't think I was even ready for the subject at the time they were too much who too little prescription for me and like a cat, follow your breath and to me that's not specific, what does it mean exactly when it would be, as if doktor said, take some medicine? Well, we're missing a few details, and I found most of the books very much very high on Dharuma talk very high in scripture and Buddha. France is very low on what would consider a pragmatic, specific recipe is not prone to miss interpretation. Will you needed was a meditation book written by you away all of the things I right, I've got a pretty piggy listed them. Did that All the books are right or books. I can't fight for myself right,
right, I said that young, and also you have you you, you get pretty damn specific superman, and then what ended up happening. Is not meditation per se as the broad terms, but very specifically and end I have to say, provokes different responses in different people. That's ok, TM as in all meditation, was recommended to me very specifically by Rick Reuben, very, very impressive, music producer people chicken. to start Discography. It's crazy, unbeliever beyond yet beyond beyond two he recommended to me on several times with Rick doesn't really recommend is very soft, at least in this area, and they said, have you have you ever thought of trying trends he's very verge Ella. That in fact was now hadn't, but since its urban back into her heart, Rick has done a lot. The other fear. I think that it held me back
from falling embracing, meditations the people I met, who gave me the most Frequent sales pitches were not driving type, a personalities, to put it mildly right more. The like dupes Looking it's four in the afternoon. She grabbed breakfast because I'm hungry set and I didn't find that example compelling, but your friend was Harris, I M friends of SAM Harris said SAM her. I don't speak for m, but SAM doesn't always his go to tools would not be too I do not see a it would be meditation yak as he was that SAM Hairs, for they uninitiated is an amazing writer, philosopher, pot, her and me your friend of ours, who we got me on my first meditation Eritrea, the absolutist meditation that Yes, a SAM has had a very signal,
in impact on me, but that was after I took the red pill and I took the red pepper. Specifically, these are not little red you referring to sorry. This is the Morpheus Red Ok, this is me, etc the matrix reference. In fact, at that time, this would have been two thousand and nine two dozen ten I dont know. If salmon I had met I see might of women. This is around his hand when you're rejecting meditation two dozen. Ninety doesn't that's for the umpteenth time. Yes, and then Rick. I had lunch with Rick and He recommended that and then, for me, density of repetition tends to persuade me if someone comes up a lot in a short time and then and then I would say three or four days later, very close friend of mine, a dishonest, in fact, Chase Jarvis is one of the most successful commercial photographers period out their work, the lot of incredible brands, wonderful craftsmen
who knows it were also the ceo of a company called creative live, which is equally impressive, gets a lot done here. On the development development for soccer prior to all that really gets allowed them and he said, have you ever thought of doing tm like ok. This is the second time of her. This gimme your pitch. What's your pitch and ultimately he gave the pitch and then I found out that it was at the time whatever was fifty hundred dollars to have someone give your mantra. Analysis like if I want because he David crash, I don't really have to pay fifteen knowledge is gonna. Give me like it too. So bold nonsense, word sounded, sounded cruelty sounded off and he expected me to say that I think- and he said, You seem really anxious.
You seem very much at the edge and I was in the s. That's all true. He said what do you have to lose? You have fifteen hours spend the money you can leave after the first their fifth if it really wrangles even pushes you in addressing long and that was ultimately pitch, the God it was look. There is some potential upside, I believe. As someone who has done this for several years, I can tell you tell me and the downsides very limited the. What do you have to lose your clearly matter and so I did it- and I was very- fortunate to get a teacher who matched me and partially because I presume and did my biases and feelings right up front. In the first meeting I had with the orientation TM person in San Francisco said. Look, just you know Dealing with her she'll get frustrated, I told them all the baggage as bringing in and the interest me too.
a teacher name Lawrence, who is a form competitive athlete, and he presented it in a very Once you get past the initial like offering a fruit and flowers and number of what does they don't speak and then the mantra once you get past that which is a lot for me to just like swallow. but by my tongue over didn't last very long has released a portion of the first meeting once you pass, it's actually the deliveries, very secular, very, very secular. Now I dont lose thread, but now I'm sensitive to all other. What I would have you unless sensitive to what I would have perceived as the hand wavy garden dharuma stuff. But at the time I was so repelled for lotteries. Don't need to get into your religionist did not sit well with me. Even if it was a pseudo religion. Meditation was there delivered to me in a very pragmatic step by step. All you have
the deal is repeat this mantra. I suggest you take thirty seconds to get settled here, a few tips for how to sit here a number of options depending on what most comfortable and the specificity really and specificity, and simplicity really appealed to me. I did my four afternoons or for lunch breaks practice, and then I stuck with it and I I have since that time experimented with other, types of meditation, unincorporated other aspects of different, perhaps schools, ability- and if you want a phrase it that way, they did a silence. Ten Dave a person or a tree spare Iraq not along just fine again for folks, you don't know the term that's deposited would be sort of old school buddhist meditation, which is quite different and technique from varied of rum that transnational meditation, no mantra much much much for me much much more difficult.
And SAM Harris coming back to SAM, Then, who were tremendous book waking up also has a whole various sample of funny guy people, don't, I should say people, but most most folks who think of SAM don't have exposure just how funny he is also. What is great is to have dinner with him his wife and watch out wife yet fond of him. That is ass. Oh yeah, she's, amazing civil SAM then once I got to Know- him, or I may have even known him at the time, but when it became clear that this is a subject we could talk about together. I didn't know SAM for that. This was before he had written much about it, then, also an impact and informed some Decisions I made about, for instance, these song, I the first person I called as soon as I had received news that I would be attending this retreat because it's very much coveted each spot.
To enter a lottery and every involved SAM was first person. I called because tempers and not necessarily have the tool kit or the experience to advise on such an experience, but send it. What's he M P, How would they even feel about you going on a very personal retreat than they were? supportive? I mean, And by the day I really mean Laurent he's the only a he's one of two people. I have regular contact with somewhat regular contact with, within the world of TIM, a primary, if one I when I feel like, I need a brush up or I've fallen off the wagon and would like to go back on with some essential accountability. Then there were one or two people, Bob Roth being the other whose actually gonna be a guest on its pegana. Grin he's got a new book coming out to stab you for one. Second, in the thread here, because between
please you started a m and but then there are several years that pass before you decided to go in the silent the Parson retreat. I guess you're allows those a few months ago. Okay, so I really want to hear about that but I've first would like to know what you are anxious in depressed. You start doing. Gm did help it didn't help. It did help I wouldn't say that it by itself was enough, is enough to get me to where I am right now which is not perfect, would not flawless, but my God and last year I mean I'm a different person complete, really very much different prison and, however it what it demonstrated for me was proof of concept, and this was really important importance, an understatement, and that was I'm sure I haven't made up this example. There are many different ways. You can phrase it, but the ability
if you're inside the washing machine to become an observer and two step six inches, the other side of the glass so that Europe looking not only looking into the washing machine to observe is moving around, but also the fact that you can observe conceptual washing machine to begin with. Another way to put it would be Learning that there is a teachable learn, apple skill that allows you to to go from being the movie of your thoughts whenever that movie is could be, horror could be, might Myerst chasing around could be, cliffhanger could be done. a visa and whatever might be, you have the ability to not just be a character in the movies.
up in some plot line that you have likely invented, but also to step back and sit in the audience and observe the story that you ve, created. Mindfulness bright said the what team did for me was demonstrate a that was possible, be and that I didn't have to control my thoughts now that I do think that is We could delve into it, but controlling or moulding your thought, I do think can be a very powerful skill. But when I had attempted to meditate previously, I viewed thinking as a failure within that it, Me to where that is the primordial misunderstanding right and then, when I began to view
quit as practised stepping outside the washing machine yeah. That's like the practice. The repetition of each us just saved I set girl in meditation is not the absence of thought. It is each time you recognize, oh I'm in the washing machine. Let me try to step out and watch the washing machine that was a very profound, and I dont use the word very much, but paradigm shift for a while These and I've been quoting what failing all along is because I misunderstood you're playing the wrong guy finally came also translate checkers on a chessboards like oh hell, outta. This is so hard to achieve. The other way around. You were trying to play chess checkerberry, yes, that Europe and the Mediterranean so much harder than an AIDS tb yeah. Exactly exactly so. That's it! That's actually exactly right. I've never used that knowledge workers. I thank you for correcting it.
No you using algae correctly. It's just that Eddie. You describe process that I've gone through that I continue to go through pretty much every time I meditate which Israel I think, I'm just being such a jerk to myself and AIDS. Thing is so much easier than we make it just to say with the chronology. Those are you. You Camden solve everything for you, but it really helped you notice, anxiety and depression rearing its ugly head still use it. I still user Teghmus tool is just not the only to show what got you to the point. You wanted to do this silent, meditation oratory. While that's a big leap. It is a big leap I,
part of parties, not sure, but I would say SAM had an influence. Certainly a number of folks. I met in Silicon Valley, close friends of mine who had this entire side of their lives dedicated to my friends practice. I was not aware of peat, my curiosity and it's like a wait, a SEC so the people who have been so loud mouth and brash about bashing, the head with good NASH or whatever, actually aren't the people who have the in my experience, the deepest practice, and the people right around me, who are the deepest practice, had never talk to me about the fact that they do three silent retreats a year. Wow that mean her and there were including some people who are so, to my mind, the most frenetic
at her brained ADHD, like after all, chomping people I ve ever met, and yet they did this whole retreats and they credit, silent retreat with true endlessly helping them to function, and so then assert wonder what would they be like without that, and what am I right now I can see. How might solar treat affect me? I don't know- and I was curious very curious and Jack Cornfield, also whose very business people who don't know incredibly well respected for Forsaketh Simplicity, Buddhist meditation teacher, whose one of perhaps five or six people largely credited with bringing those practices to the western. I asked no upon us out. Why are you
as all jewish. It's like. I know it sounds like a lot of these. I gotta know when we talked about it said the whole several conversation but Jack. I had a pole to Jack. I dont know why exactly had never met him at read some of his work and ended up. that, he was close friends with a close friend of mine, Adam Gazelle E. Who is one of the foremost neuroscience researchers in the world. He has the Gazelle lab a useless of which I have supported a different, find been involved with both as a subject and as an experimenter really being handled through the process. But Adams work has been on the cover of nature, which is like winning the triple crowned forest science is concerned, and he is very clear, Jack
I found credibly incredibly interesting because Adam is by training by necessity, one of the most sceptical numbers driven objective might ever from map and joy, back was going to be leading co, leading this retreat at Spirit Rock, and is advancing years. Supposedly, one of his last may be his last, and I thought of you know what This has been on my mind for a long time. Let me see if I can rattlesnake eyes and actually get into this, and it took me a few years actually to finally spot. I d get spot and It was really to see what would happen and what had then does not expect what have now you have me. Jewish they spirit, rotten is a
attention Retreat centre in Marine Northern. Can Northern California, where I did my first reaction? Can I get Whittaker beautiful, beautiful eighties, super beautiful beautiful occasion and so on? all right. So what happened? Was that a tough time at really tough them and not uncommon? meditating twice a day, leading up to it to a t. Em up to that point from had been predominantly morning, practice had not done twice a day. I I had. and still find the three or four after in practice to be very challenging like Malta, em up and Lange and, like all running full told them the treadmill. It's very difficult and yearly unappealing. For me, too, and do them in the late afternoon, but I I did do that for several weeks, a prob leading up to spit rock
and I also added layer on top of it which, to their credit, was advised against I have a lot of experience with fasting site leered fasting topside fasted for two days, part of their treatin than the first five days too fast for seventy as well, and then decided and then a flight of some kind. actually jumping Randal overbooked. I decided to break my fast when I was sitting in the meditation, which you know four intimately, I'm sure and did not three hours straight primarily sitting meditation and the only thoughts they came to mind were calmer, fried chicken, Kalmar, Frederick Calorie, Frederick Cholera fried chicken lives like you know, neither of which are available yet neither of which were available, and I'm no professional meditate her, but I concluded that was probably unproductive, yes and broke the fast, but I up today, five, I would say I tracked along with
most of the group- and we say silent retreat. But it's important to note that each night at least when I was there there was scheduled, Dharuma Talk and coming into it. I didn't know it Burma was, I didn't know what I thought blanket on the word for group, that meditate stung, Farrago sung system o my son guy knows what they like it or not. Some guys know how many are treated with diamonds, my fur, oh, my god, you're going to have an interesting time. The first day, even it's the first time we're meeting him, and I know enough about you to know that adding this fasting on top of it sounds again like classic TIM and I'm going to tweak and hack my way to the like whatever it is. I want your wife, I recognise it as a problem may be the first and last time that I will do salary treat almost certainly the first and last time that I have the opportunity to jack. So if its necessary, as it is
for instance, and I do not recommend this. I'm not a doktor don't blow on the internet, but as it is with certain psychedelic practices to reach escape velocity, I dont want to be sub orbital. or the experience of this is my one shot to get on the playing field I wanted to use fasting as one tool to intensify the practice and to be in deep ghettos us at the time which was which is a fascinating physiology, the logical state where your body ceases to use largely glucose and instead use unequalled, Kiehtan bodies and up today, five I was tracking with, with pretty much everyone else, and I say that because of course I'm not talking at all with with one or two exceptions, is you say every other day for ten or fifteen minutes with one of the teachers. To my Well, it's not. There is but ensure not having a complete psychotic break and then their these dharmu talks for less
say forty five minutes to an hour and a half each evening where one of the teachers leading the retreat we'll talk about some aspects of the practice, and that is sometimes scripture. related very often, is sometimes technical, which is what I was really hungry for upon intended, but up to five, and they would say things like art, so nice to see like day three as the highest data is the hardest you do sigh of relief. I cannot alone and then as a on deck in our meetings with all of its on ice, they argue dropping into a peaceful state and really quieting down, and then and you personally audience would have cipher leaf and temper sound. What are they talking about and
then they six. I had this very profound. Blissful experience were left the meditation always getting closer phobic, not under the medical definition of closer phobia, but I was, I had to gather room is too much of a cat. stare at this person's information other two seconds? I just have to get out of this room like listen that woman over their who'd like will not stop there our throat or whatever psych guy. It's I need to go so when outside which, which jacket recommended. Actually and went on I beautiful hike up to this Vista, overlooking some of the surrounding mountains made such a stellar I'm really looks for people who want to envision. It looks like a out and top Japanese, is no honest area, its exquisite, and this is about three thirty, four o clock in the starting to the sunlight, stirring in dusk, and you can hear the animal noises change. I'm sitting on this band, which I later found out. I think it's pronounced a nature
and I see a which means and permanence which enrich respects can hilarious, but I'm sitting there and has dropped into this very profound blissful state were the back pain, the hip, paintings because for those people listening, he might I'd gone from meditating twenty minutes a day to what is ten. twelve hours a day, it's a lot to some of it is walking. Some of its work is, but none Nonetheless, a lotta saying sitting yes and the physical pain melted away. park bench and I'm using any cushats completely and at the risk of making my unresolved puke collar himself. I will say it. I felt this melting away of armour and this opening in my chest I very commonly or historic ashtray
felt tightening in my chest, specifically rate to the left of my sternum. Whenever I felt anger or frustration on patients coming and the poor, and the teachers recommendation than the techniques that they discuss were very helpful for paying attention to the bodily sensations I hadn't really focused on before. I found that open up melt in such a way that it literally felt like I had cold war report on my chest and my back. It felt like my shirt was soaking. Wet, has very odd sensation. I may or may not have been using adjunct therapies what what and what you do it and you stop fasting. I'd start that this is the day after this. what the adjective their peace I had a few days into it been supplementing with seven or ground mushrooms in this case,
while on a meditation retreat, which I found out later because I was reading, my why'd, you do that. Once again, I did not want to risk the possible out. I decide out rather overshoot, then stay sub orbital if it was necessary to if the benefits were We had on the other side of that atmospheric barrier and we shall check on statute limitations, could only get myself necessarily monkey behind bars, but hypothetically. If I were to use these things, what might happen I found out later after reading, some additional literature, because I do so. I support scientific research at Johns, Hopkins and other cases where their studying at Johns Hopkins don't run literally studying what sells Ivan does to meditate hours. That's rent the threats. I am supporting that setting as walls of Cuba,
few others related to end of life- anxiety, internal cancer patients and a few other population studies with and now role and in no way would have suggested that I do what I did rolling recently a professor at the scientist at Johns Hopkins. So here you know this was Miss resulting verse, and but I found it I realized leader when I was doing it Post game analysis of what transpired which I'll get to in a moment that its very common under certain, circumstances that people war real, live childhood trauma, so you layer on top of that fasting sell the item I head fasted and then I had this incredible. opening. We think we could call it Andy six and then on the bench on the bench. They seven's is attending experience. one day. Seven all hell broke loose
and from that moment, on from that moment until the end of the meditation retreat. I felt like I was going completely insane any past Roma, any severe women's psychologically or other said I had received seen childhood were being replay from twenty four seven in high deaf, to the extent that I would lay in bed and the schedule typically pause going to bed around nine hundred and thirty and then wake me up at five, a dot m I'll get in bed at ten, and I would sweat through my sheets. It was cold at night, sweat through my sheets from ten to one or two in the morning and then wake up at five How are you continuing with the sauce Ivan let me think about that for a second, I stopped on day eight, so I I stopped at the beginning of day, but the trauma loops. we're playing even after used to eat, already had play right.
There is no stop and sell the and what can kick I don't want to get overly personal. I mean, although we do that, a lot on this package, but only say what you want to say. But can you give us a sense of what the movies were showing sure I'll give one example? regret it, but I'll give it anyway. One example was I had a babysitter one point whose boyfriend was an alcoholic and construction worker fan of three stages and professional rising and his sport was to come on, get blitzed and choke me too near unconsciousness a few times a week. They'll be one example, and I thought in a very long time, I'd compartmentalize, very neatly and assumed it one undone locked away, never interfere with my life again. The way the mine works, not the Willemite works and so imagine then, if you will decades
later lying in bed swam through she's having that replayed as if you are experiencing it again and a very fortunate. The jack was there and told him. I put my cards on the table at that point and he he is. Almost without a doubt. The most purely compassionate him being up ever met its remarkable its something I noticed before. I went to the tree. Some and it was during certainly something unnoticed after, but if he had not been there, I think that I would have come out of that retreat much worse off than when I went in, and it turns out that my understanding is, let's just call it ten to fifteen percent of people who go to retreats like this. Have the experience it I had and you just beforehand. I filled out the ass. We call it admission form, they ask you
five questions about past trauma and saw announced like no fine, yet not actually fine nope never have experience. I didn't know I was in the ten fifty percent. That's the scary. Put to me is that there is ten to fifteen percent but in my case now imagine other cases. You just turn off your in ten fifteen percent, and It ended up being a real gift, although very very painful gift. and that, for that reason we need take a big joe was important, not just because he's compassionate. He was important because he has personally has personally interacted with a hundred thousand, were he also a phd in clinical psychology, so he's dealt with
veterans, who have Linz blown off and have phantom limb syndrome. He has dealt with gang members. Gang members. Adolescence were cutters he's dealt with that he has a very, very well honed toolkit needs a giant yeah he's he's just a tremendously gifted human being and not to see the other teachers are, but they don't have, that breadth of experience. So I, if Jack had not been there, I think it would have been a train wreck, and for that reason, when people say oh how you first how's your salary partly answered quickly. I used to say difficult, I'm glad I did it. Thank God for Jack. That's my short answer, but when people Ask me: should I do a silent treat? My first answer is no, I say no because I dont know if you're in the fifteen percent and if you are- and you dont have a jack there you're just you're on the autobahn that with food near bag, without without a seatbelt, I love. What I will say is that the places like Spain, Iraq and incitement
station society, where which is this Mr Organization in Massachusetts, yeah Massachusetts. They do actually have pretty really good protocols in place for dealing with this stuff That being said, Jack is uniquely skilled, but they did. You know, They see these people coming through all the time firm no I'd an inn for what it's worth mean. I dont know what the experiences were of the other treatments by virtue of it being a salary It didn't seem. I mean I spoke to a few. People are very tough time and I certainly share with them the details of my and our experience since very hard. Maybe they were doing the same thing, but I dont mean to imply that jack is a non recurring phenomenon and that the others of the other teachers are incapable of any of these retreat centres. But I do certainly
mean to convey that he was. I trusted jack. I didn't know the other teachers, so I would I not have, even though they might have been perfectly capable of helping and qualified. I would not have felt confident or comfortable open. Up to them. What did he? How did he help? We can you came to him with a real real need, You know I don't know, I don't want to use within the evidence of our session. So I dont want to give too much. Then I think I could actually even replicate stimulate when he did but He Jack listens. He doesn't just here you and then respond with one of six stock answers, and I did experience that a little bit elsewhere worth like, oh well, have you heard of the forefathers
the four arrows of suffering or something like that, whatever it might be an unlike no- and I see that you ve pulled out of Here- six, if, if patients as this, then I say that cards he would listen and he listened so intently and this is true of the last five years- also doing a lot of deliberate in her work too He also really old stuff spent last year of realise that think. There's there's here there's listening and then there's a listening, and there is watching in their seeing and then there's CN were so. It doesn't look at you, they look.
to you and they see things that you might be trying to say. We cannot express Jack. Has that ability on a very, very deep level and see you feel at least I felt- and this is a no its, not unique to me with him. That- and I am also very deep connection to woman spring wash up there. I who am laughing because spring will always been on this by guest was the person who gave me the advice on my first retreat then lead to them one of the most found moments in my entire arab spring is amazing. She's were gifted. She has sent out a very deep connection with her, but she needed to travel and couldn't stay for the territory. So I only had one meeting but I knew from the very first moment I interacted with her very briefly for a host of reasons.
Actually I didn't know the reasons that I just felt like she- and I have things to talk about- is also done. A lot of work with psychedelic, yes, and I feel, like I've, been bitter radar for that now and suspense without limiting another, like Chris, Just to get really will hand waving so before I had gone on my retreat what are the goes out every Friday cause Bipolar Friday that I just cool stuff that I found or things thinking about whatever might be, and something fun for me. It's sounds like a diary, an excellent actually sit down into a deer diary entry and through one of
countries is cool and pondering when I find quota like I put them into this, and I had selected a quote about three months before the retreat by spring, not knowing anything about her scheduled it. It came out the week after the retreat and then I put the pieces together all I got the same spreading. That's crazy buttoned, but it did she also an unfortunate people do but but yeah accessibility to see beyond seeing and listen beyond. Listening is very well developed a trained, it's absolutely Trent, absolutely train. I mean I think he has that
super persons ridiculous. He has that faculty his highly develop capacity for that. Just like you might look at someone with certain certain points in their Achilles ten guy, that person can jump really high. I know already just by looking at the anatomy of the calves. They can jump a lot higher than I can think Jack is predisposed to having a very high capacity, but then he developed. So you refer to it as a gift. Earlier yes, the difficulty lies in what way it near what how well it where's left. You John. It's been its. the clear what I realized is that the. Let's just say: twenty seven are forty, seven sixty four Whatever number of issues I am. I have unconsciously, where of things that have sabotage relationships,
things that have led me to be brutal with myself things that have stymied They are confused me somewhere behaviors it if been inexplicable to me my self defeating behaviors I know where self defeating, and yet they persist. Why didn't end when I realized, which in a way is was very, reassuring or uplifting in an otherwise very intimidating. Is that they all? They were all the same thing they all tracked back to that unresolved childhood trauma, the trauma, and you are you referring to one thing from childhood or just generalised, download it like a short of all that stuff that I had locked in a box and buried a hundred feet on the ground, expecting it never to surface in so then the question was ok. Now what what do you do with. That is one thing to be aware of. The problem is quite another to have a plan or
confidence that you can resolve the problem. Jack Jack was very, very helpful again in. Making a number of recommendations. I will not repeat them here because we're getting it some very serious stuff. I think people should seek professional help us if Lave, if they feel like this resonates, and they have some deep, deep, painful experiences that have Avenant resolved, but he recommended a number of trauma specialist from you to look into and I began more about how? I might also do not detective work, what other modalities may also be worth testing to help with this now that I felt I had identified the target and soon, as I got other treat now. Fortunately, Hamburg
it making plans and scheduling things and getting things done and such like our this. This is the work I the business stuff that I was thinking about all the news resolutions all second place not second place like ninety place and everything in between from wondering six. Is this work so between the solitary which was in October? And now? That's all. I've been focused on good for you and the fuel. Through a lot at it, knew everything in the kitchen sink and including more mink edit. I would assume a certain amount of therapy, but also meditation a year with very, very, very qualified to revision and it's been the most powerful. That's a transformative through men's my life. I was certainly
with without question. Imagine and without question right. Well, I would like to I would like to I feel conflicted about it because, When you have with great audience, comes great responsibility and what I ve realized, particularly with her, particularly with a an audience. It is, let's just say, roughly seventy percent twenty two or your old hard charging Taipei males, who don't always have the best instincts when it comes to sell preservation. If you have millions of those statistically, let's just pretended to city some percentage of those people who can kill themselves. Some presented People are gonna, do bad things. Other people I'm percentage, don't follow directions and it's not any fault in the audience. It's just a game of numbers
and when I realized is, for instance, there's a chapter in the far body on my second book on breath. Holding David play in the illusionist and endurance artist, taught me how to hold my breath and go from forty five seconds to almost four minutes and p at one point. Help number of old wreckage relieved that chapter full of warnings, any all caps all bald warnings throughout the entire chapter and nonetheless, there were no I remember one point. One reader left a blog, bosoms idea when I tried, I said, never pride, never try to some water over and over. And then there was a blog posts for our blog comment that I saw I said I went to the public pool and I tried this and I passed out and then the lifeguard pulled me dislocated my shoulders at what should I, how should train this properly and us, oh, my god. This is this. Is there is so little upside here and so now.
The downside I took it out of the book, so chapter came out and with this type of work, particularly if, if I were to write about this, there is if I were to be truthful, there's no way that I could omit plant medicine. There's there's! No! plant medicine, meaning Laredo, Oscar Mozilla's Ivan there. Many that be there in people talking about this in responsible way spring who has been on the show, is talking about it. Michael politics coming out. I'm sure you know that you know about about plant medicine, so you could do it. I could I could I. I just recognise that as powerful as these tools are the power that have to heal, is equal in their power to destabilize Sure SAM has described it you're getting on a rocket. You don't know where the Rockets going right and, as is also said,
you will develop if you go deep enough. A profound empathy for people in because your walk down the street and you will have experienced in some capacity what those people are experiencing. An Not, I did, and I should say not. Everyone comes out and this- is on an unpopular thing to say, but with these compounds, particularly if people have a history if schizophrenia, which they may not even be aware of They have not had a thorough family medical history in some way explained to them. By their parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, who may also not have ever labelled it such you can go off bills and not compact fuel,
mendous responsibility to think through the ramifications before getting into but there. If, if I were, I've been keeping note for five years on all this, I have the raw material for book, and it's just a question of of when when and if I will feel the calculus makes sense. If the mayor of the city, he asked near the greatest For the rest of our people, I get it again. I understand your reticence. Either. Com then last question: The comment is the word to come. The Mai for me is is bravery and requires lab braver for you to discuss this publicly and beat to do the work. So when you for that, and I wish you the best of luck as you continue to work as it will last the rest of your life. You know working on your own well being and that that is the work of a lifetime. So I have a lot of respect for we're working on taking the final question
before I let you go is tools of titans No, no! No tribe of mentor scandal you it's confusing the bust out with tee. I do anything Joseph tightens the penultimate book, the ultimate, whilst I can be your last book, but that this the second most recent book as tools of titan. This one is called private mentors. Can you can't give given to tell us a little about it, A little bit about it and had left to make a closing comment, that's related, but not entirely related, drank, might get yours tribe of men towards very simple, is I'd, have pop up. We ve talked to item. I've had a very, very tough last two years, a lot of beauty, but also some real cracks in the cosmic egg and some extra, dream emotional paint beyond anything I've experienced in decades
above that a number of close friends pass away, including one of the mentors entrapment tourist, her Laughlin, very unexpected. The man who tommy me how a swim with 30s authorities or not- and I had a lot of questions, come up as it turned forty but a year ago and moved turning. Forty doesn't scare me that didn't throw me off kilter. I take care of myself. I felt very good about it. but it was a milestone that led me to revisit. Lot of my priorities, my life, my friends, my goals, how my behaviors led me. Your misled me in different ways. Up to this point, a lot of questions. I decided to take those questions after a boiled down to about eleven questions and ask for help which something about historically good at say I like, rather than sit down for the figure it out on paper, which is not always seldom invest approach. For me,
said, take this lever questions and send them to about a hundred and thirty people who were some of the most impressive. minds and hearts I contract out, so people involved station Sharon in people involved with, say addiction? surgeon medicine as well as pointless and like a boar methane doktor conformity, also including icons of safe sport, like Kelly Slater, was decorated, surfer of all time or reassure pullin unit. We ve got the authors of all different types him Harris's in there and to try to borrow from their answers to learn from their answers, and the book is a collection of short, miles, including their answer. So they're, one hundred and thirty dollars play range and I would save in length from two to ten pages. Yuval Harari of Sapiens closes out the book. You would like it's
you'd, like his has profound. I want him on the show he Sylvia I hear he might be on it modernization you never. Your highness merits serious meditative, and actually I owe him a thank you. So his profile. was the final nudge. They got me a while to press go and do the sound because he talked about how his for solar treat fundamental changes Tyler and how none of his books would happened had it not been for that and the subsequent routine practice. I could say the same thing for myself saw that says that and then in terms of closing commented like to say to people and if anything of centres as resonated in terms of please zoom out the fact that eyes, I have spent my entire life minus the most recent six months later,
at best tolerating myself, typically loathing myself and beings extremely brutal brutal. I didn't view myself as worthy of law certainly not self loves team self, indulgent and I'd focused unjust becoming, instrument of competition and that I could help other people experience joy, but that my function, I was to be an instrument of I pay intolerance and competition, and that that was my function. Those just it frog sources of horses team is a history of competition with hype hectares, I just want to say to any one who feels like they merely tolerate themselves that you a you, cannot love other people fully. If you mean merely tar, is off and actually read a quote from, it's recently of all people and paraphrase it, but it was and when we met, we must remember that the golden rule goes in both directions,
so people are familiar with the do unto others, as you do unto yours have them do unto you, but you also need do unto yourself, as you do and others and develop your relationship with yourself as a friend, I found loving kindness, meditation very helpful for this. Another gift that jacket and incur nameless conduct, meditation teacher at Remember, sitting down and telling them that I found the meadow Emmy Tt Jackson's offers Emil's much matter, which is loving kindness meditation. Were you project good well and love and well wishes and lack of pain and suffering to people. done this ferment wars and teachers and friends loved ones and before, is about to leave this other meditation teacher
she I apologize to her if it's not the renamed, but I'm getting close said just a quick question: have you Any loving kindness projected at yourself younger versions of yourself or versions of yourself that were raised more hurt. That now didn't even occur to me and she's like yeah. I think you should try that, and that was a huge huge. change Renault to say not to be too long, winded about it that if you feel like you have been or are in a place like I've described for myself for my tired I would underscore that you don't have to choose a path. There are other pass. You can choose, you can choose the path of light love and forgiveness towards yourself? And if you told me this euro that that could be developed, I would if I would not believe it, but I
right now today, feeling like living proof that it is possible and you have to do the work you are going to have to fix lot of pain. But if you put in the work, can you focus dedicate yourself too? That is your top priority that it can be done incredibly glad and grateful that you said that it is not long. Winded is if there are fewer more important. Things sentiments, I think that can be imparted could be boiled down to what I view as the animating inside of my whole. Meditation evengelical side hustle, which is the mind, is trainable and we're not stuck all of the psychological and stuff that you don't like and you are living proof of that sort. The mind is traceable and the heart is open. Yes, thank you for doing I've wanted to have a conversation. We you for a long time. Thank Yous surpassed even my life. My arm,
I expect it. Thank you very much. I really Ok, that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe rate us all Have you want to suggest topics? You think we should cover our guests that we should bring in hit me up on twitter at Danby. Harris importantly, I want to thank the people who produce this project. Lauren Efron, Josh cohesion and the rest of the folks here, any ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other black. You can check them out at ABC News time, dot, com, I'll talk to you next Wednesday,. There's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona virus pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people.
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