Gretchen Rubin describes herself as a writer who relentlessly explores human nature to understand how we can make our lives better. Through her bestselling books and her award-winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, she shares strategies that help people understand themselves and create a happier life. In this week's episode she sits down with Dan to discuss the connection between happiness and decluttering, which is also the topic of her latest book, "Outer Order, Inner Calm: Declutter and Organize to Make More Room for Happiness." Rubin provides insight on what clutter is doing to our minds, and how cleaning up can improve our outlook. The Plug Zone Website: https://gretchenrubin.com/ Social: @gretchenrubin
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC see the and happier vodka than I have followed distance. Deeply fluttering trend, we ve had it in you know a few little ways: the show throughout the years, but I'd end. Really thought, I would dedicate a whole episode to the issue of declaring, as I thought, maybe wasn't fully germane, but then I found out that my friend somebody. I really admire Gretchen Reuben, whose writer on all things happiness in human nature, and a very smart, very serious person? I found out that she had written a whole book about declaring its called outer order. Inner com and I thought ok, maybe we ought to take this more seriously, so a broader and to talk about it, and I locked away really convince, There's there's something here that the that there
is a connection between your environment, your mental well being and that there are actionable steps you can take that dont require major life surgery in order to bring some outer order that will produce as Gretchen says some inner com. So this conversation was fantastic and, as you'll hear, she just crackling women. intelligence and eagerness to help and we cover- All sorts of issues would have when it comes to declaring her techniques, which which go by such names as the one minute rule the x factor test and things like that We talk about the difference between her approach and that of Marie Condo who's got that massive declaring best seller. The the I think the life changing magic of tidying up and also she has that big new show on Netflix it. We talk about the difference between Gretchen Approach and Marie's. We talk about procrastinate, clearing
how you some people clean up as a way to procrastinate, instead of doing what they need to do, we talk about the impact of having a clean desk on people who need to do creative work. We talk about how declaring can reduce costs, like in interpersonal relationships at the office, and also probably more importantly, at We talk about ways you can hack. Yours shopping so that declare during doesn't have that that declaring his less necessary ultimately because she's so interesting. I also at the end of urgent into some. We, we veer off into some other topics, including mindless eating, which is a subjective she and I have explored before and we talk about happiness in the air of Trump, so a lot, get to with Gretchen Rubin, and I look forward to bring that to you. First, just a very to very quick items of business. You want to tell you about a couple new things that are up on the ten percent happier.
I've got a new meditation from seventy Selassie, one of our most popular teachers. On beginning your day with gratitude. I will let me just say on behalf of gratitude- and I think I said this in the package before, but it bears repeating beating one of those concepts that can be presented in a rather Trickly annoying way, but in fact, is there's a lot assigns to suggest that gratitude has profound impacts on the mind. So Looking forward to hearing and using seventies meditation on that, it called begin with gratitude and then another new meditation from one of my favorites. My good friend, J, Michael, send it rest, your mind, and it's designed for people like me who are striving over everyday pushing to hard in their meditation and is a meditation designed to help you out a chill out and assure you you're doing it right, don't worry about winning at meditation. Do something I need to hear over and over again. The check this out. ten percent happier app back now to go
just a little bit on her bio are going to review the first line of her official Bio Gretchen. Reuben is one of today's, influential and thought provoking observers of happiness in human nature, she's known for her ability to distil convey complex ideas with humor and clarity. A way that is accessible to a wide audience and she certainly has reached a wide audience. She's had several huge best sellers, the first one that really put her on the map was called the hat this project number one new Yorkers best seller. I think it's but two years on the list, and then she wrote some books about habit. Change which are utterly fascinating. They're called one is called better than before. The other is called for. The four tendencies I've had her on the show before she. This is there a third time on the show. So if you want to go back and listen to her talk about the happiness project, that's episode, fifteen and then, if you want to listen to her talk about habit formation, that's episode Ninety nine, interestingly Gretchen too.
not meditated. She's kind of dabbled with it, we don't really get in past episodes. We talk about her various misadventures with meditation, we don't get into when this one but you're not gonna, hear just listener alert much about meditation here by You're gonna hear from somebody who knows a ton of mental, well being and ways to train the mind that beyond the cushion. So I highly recommend this one year ago, here's wretched great to see you again. Oh so, happy to be talking, we again very rare that we bring somebody on as many have you been on, but you mean I have no second thoughts about. I'm really happy to. Have you been all? Thank you. I think we could talk all day, so I really appreciate lieutenants thinking on it. I get back home regulations on your to book. Thank you, I'm just curiously, is it. Our Are you at all, hesitant to be putting out a book about declaring, in the era of condo our marine kind of
I love Marie Kind, I'm one of remember when fans like I've been to launch the show him two days and die only recommend three books at the end of our order in our common hers is one of them, but the thing Marie Condo is that she really has one way, the Conway and its way. That is super successful for a lot of people. Obviously, but it doesn't for everyone, and, I think, sometimes will feel bad about themselves if they feel like they failed. If they can't do something, the right way are the best way or they never get started, because I, like I, just can't handle the thought of taking at every you know. recalled that I own, and putting it in a big pile and admire. My view is that there is a lot of ways that people can succeed. There's a lot of different ways that we can achieve our aims, and so what I tried to do in my book is to say you can do Swear that way you could try to answer. You could try that and so that people can pick and choose the things that strike a chord with them. They then saying, I'm gonna tell you the best way. There's some people do want to be told how to do it and to follow in
actions, but then I think for some people. That's us! Isn't workers want like for one thing one of Marie kind of things is you should empty at your bag every day now that this is a sense. For me, I guess I just that this isn't a good use of my time are energy, but she really really fervently recommends it as a practice, I'm sure person people, it's great, and I, like you, Do that or maybe not a little bit more pick and choose have I ever sent, because I want to dive into your way the elegant or yours or flexible way, but why? What is it you're? An expert you ve written about happiness, why What is the connection between declared and being happy? this is so interesting. Ok, because, ten years ago I wrote that the project than ever since then a great book. Thank you. I've been writing and researching and talking to people about happiness, good habits, human nature, and what I noticed was that I'd be talking about.
like eating right or making time for yourself or reconnecting when the people that you lover by Neil all and of things to make you happier have good habits and you will be very interested in very engaged. But then, when ever issues related to outer order, came up people got very energize like it was clear that was like an extra emotional charge around these issues, and that is surely puzzle like when I would speak to a group, and I would talk about making your bad people. with laugh. They would of talk amongst themselves. I can feel that there was something special going on in this area and touches it surprised me. as I think we can all agree that, in the context of a happy life, a crowded, co closet is trivial, so wanted to understand why that was. I felt it myself in my own life, why? Why was that feeling there and then also, given that we do feel this extra energy around our order? How can we could,
it and then maintain it because it does seem like it matters more really, then an automatic. It really does matter what. Why is that? Why you thicket manners? no part of it is, I think a life is easier. You can find things you can put things away, you don't buy. Duple kids have less conflict with other people, you have more space on a lot times, clearing clutter, eliminates bad feelings, because we have a lot of feelings tied up an object feel like maybe I feel guilty, because I shouldn't spend so much money on this pair pants. I never wore if I give away this pair of pants, the bad feeling goes away, or maybe this is an unfinished project. Okay, I thought it was going to do this origami, but I'm not going to sit here, makes you feel bad or maybe there's a fantasy self that I bought things. Oh, I bought a guitar and music stand into music is totally and learn how to play the guitar, but am not a fan. see self undergoing learn to play, guitar so get it It sits. There makes you feel guys inferior yeah, it's this kind of an unfinished business, and if we get rid of
things, give them away, donate their recycle them toss them. Then we get them opera, cells and offer our continent surrounded by ghosts. Exact ghosts of the past. Oh remember when we use this big plastic slide, where we don't anymore so wise and still here or the fantasy self. Yet so, a lot of bad feeling. I can go away is we also when we clear clutter. We more energized with the things that we have and I good it's like. I know what I have I can use everything I have. There is a very simple using thing that, because a Mite sister calls me a happiness bully- and I who constantly tried to force myself on my friends to help them clear clutter that I love to help. I love me, you never told me about the cluttering, but you give me ideas all the time in her life in solicit the ideas, but I really like that. It's one of the things I like you about so that bullying happy to be bullied. Ok, get I'm not happiness. Nudge here
they would be more useful that we are now well. It's get webbing inherent in here and there with my friends, wondering I've noticed and of experiences myself. It is very kind of paradoxical is, albeit with a friend we'll be clearing out a closet will take away two giant bags to give away. I should do this on anytime. I would come over here asked more like this. My favorite thing: do you, like the police? Let me come over and. people so we'll take all this stuff out of their closet and though look at their closet and they'll say? While I feel like, I have so much more to wear. Their energized, because that those things they ve they know what they have. They want, what they have it fits it works. You get rid of all the stuff this sort of clogging your vision and slowing down. Then you feel more gazed with what you have and that's a really good feeling like if you get rid of all the seven, your kitchen that you never use, then you're like. Oh, I have some stuff to cook with these you don't I literally bound to garlic, presses and our kitchen that we now
For every use, not even just one girl impressively memory is too costly process between areas delivers like two weeks ago. It's you know and it's like get rid of it and then I can find the can opener, which I actually is. And then also we do project our identity into our environments with our possessions, possessions remind us of the people in places and activities that we love and when we look into our surroundings- and we like what we see it just makes us feel better about ourselves, because we are shaping arse surroundings as part of who we are either. their residence with me for sure, given the I never Admiral condos Boon, I'm not deeply attuned to the whole declaring phenomena for better or worse but what I do know I think, is that her standard is you shouldn't anything that doesn't spark joy. Yes, that's what you agree with that will, I think spark joy can be a very useful test and for many people it is the best test for me
I've found- and I think this we're sure, a lot of people a test is Do I love it? Do I use it or do I need it? If I don't love it use, it are needed. I probably don't want to go So do I love it, meaning citizen something that we just love. You now like, Have these vintage paper has that are just gorgeous? I don't know what to do with them, but I love them, and I think I have enough room for that and then there's the you use- and I don't have a particular Joyful are not joyful reaction of a pair of scissors, but it does its little job well, so here there in the dust were, and I use them and then once and other stuff that you need. You don't use it often, but from time to time. Maybe you do need long underwear, you do need a tuxedo or you do need something that you dont use often, but when you need you need it and you want to keep those things happened. you know want. I have something for any possible eventuality.
what do I need it using her love it often that lets you. Let go of things like the bread maker that you use once in five years or in a pair of shoes that so uncomfortable that you realistically just never find the occasion to put them on. You don't use them. You don't need them. You don't love them. They can go out so that one of your precepts take us further into the book. What else would what are the other things you recommend and how do you go up? making recommendations without a strict dogmatic rigid approach was somewhat dead is so the book the book as it is it it's it's a hundred If the ideas and their written in these kind of short, accessible ways, you can always just slip you'd have to really from beginning to end. I do have s linked short essays, introducing each section where a kind of lay out a framework, but a lot of people pick and choose and what has been really Fighting for me is what I wanted the book to be with a psycho book. You everyone's right.
Looking like, oh my gosh, I don't want to finish this book. I just want to get going right now. You know, and- and I was like- I just want people like flip through it get a few ideas like and then follow the one minute rule or I'm you know, I'm in a fought use. The x factor tat story, and then get going, and I was very encouraged because, after I recorded the audio book after I did, recording my director emailed me the next day with a before and after picture of the office, because after I laughed she so fired up she. The rest of the day cleaning at office, and so that's. What I want is that it is just a bunch of ideas, because a lot of times people they want to get going. They just need some kind of framework or some some kind of idea like in the there's there's ones that are funny or ones that just try to help you from he made in a way that makes it better for you that makes it feel
or attainable. So here. Here's one interesting thing is that sometimes people think. Well, I should get rid of everything I don't want to. I should have a capsule wardrobe. But I closed my boss. told me that a cluttered dusk as a cluttered mind, but I like having a lot of stuff out of my desk and they feel like bolt there's something wrong with me. I should be minimal its. I know some people simplicity lovers? Some people are abundance lover. Some people like having a lot of things around they like profusion and choices, something oh, you know, if you're the kind of person where yes there's paper, For my desk, I can put my hands on exactly what I need in one second, I dont spent any time looking for something that's misplaced. I like that. It's like that's great, that works for you. You don't have to change because it works for you but it might not work for someone else. And but But he's right, nobody is wrong, but how do we understand ourselves better and understand other people better too, and then I try to throw out ideas that might solve conflicts, for instance, a big thing that,
comes up, and maybe you ve experienced this cause. You work in an office is says, there's clutter and, and that's because it's not clear who both who belongs to so no one feels like they have the authority to like. Oh there's this Hosty glass vase left over from when somebody got valentines. Flower two years ago, but nobody's like bills, well, I can't be the one to go. Mugabe sets out Myna have no. I couldn't do that, really, there's a pile of files in the corner and its link. Well, maybe they're trash, but maybe there important or the person whose blocked the files blind you left them the office a year ago, but nobody's figured that out and so they like maybe did achieve clutter officer like somebody who just goes around the opposite. Has the authority to say This doesn't belong here. Whose is this you got a deal at this like, like because otherwise it just sit around It's not anybody's problem tenants and it's no one's and no one wants to try. simple on someone else's stuff. You know too, will have funny. We at a hen, relief crystallizes until recently, at night line. We got in
new executive producer within the last year, Steve and steve- Has a really nice aesthetic sense and he kind of change things up in terms of the way in areas where lovely but move furniture around. You know me, it, some gathering spaces. He upgraded the furniture in very simple ways, a heart kind of kind of nothing to allow maybe a little piece of our care of, etc, etc, and I found that just the expense, hence as different yeah, it's nice. It is because our surroundings do matter, I'm in a does. If you feel like you can move through the office without I being caught on a lot of visual noise. it is easier, nicer and better and and then you can, findings were easily put things put things away more easily think a little bit of effort can really reap a lot of rewards. So you mention some things. I want to follow up on the one minute, rural, ok, This is a great role, so a of people are
play? I don't have any time energy or money to spend on clutter clearing like I can't spend a day, I think, of the container store, whatever The one minute rule is something that you can do just in the ordinary course of your day, anything that you can do in less than a minute do without delay. If you can hang up your coat, if you can print the document and stick it in the right file. Folder does do it without delay sounds very insignificant, but over and over people have said that this totally transformed our environments, because it just gets rid of that sky of stuff on the on the surface of life, but it doesn't feel difficult like you're, not you I feel like you're, asking yourself to do go very far out of your way and but little by little it surprising how much more order play. Things are in a really pleasing way and in a way that doesn't drain you what's the x factor, Something is how the exact test the expect. Ok, so you know you're trying to make up your mind whether to keep something or get rid of it. So save your views, the x factor, which is, if I were wearing this on this
street, and I ran into my axe my way from experts How is the of the area where the funny is I was? I was on the subway and age just yesterday, and I heard this woman saying. Oh, I ran into my acts on street- and I like, I didn't know what to do and of course I was wearing. Like my ugliest outfit, I mean this is, I think, so What I want to be wearing this cuz you're, like I, don't know what I'd be wearing that and it's like. I probably don't you like it right about having his random memory of like ten years ago, having lunch with you. I only know embryo friend came over it. Yeah gave me a hug and we had a nice little conversation. I haven't seen her well and you knew right. Oh you sit you somehow. You knew right away that your ex girlfriend. Yes, now, I remember that vividly as an you. Listen, I'm sure you weren't, very snappishly dressing, you're, probably very glad that you have No and another. Another fund test is the three strikes you're out because of the endowment effect. We tend to overvalue the things that we have. Just? U can download if, at the end,
I'm an effect. We endowed things with special, more meaning just because we owe them more value so, like let's say you central, a bank and they were giving away promotional mugs. You would really Do I want to go, and what am I gonna now? So you take it, but once it's yours you value at more than you would, if you didn't own it and that tat their sort of a default to keeping things. But if three times it's heard to you that maybe you don't want something that may be could donated or give it away or throw it aware, recycle it. It's time like at the on the thirty you, like. Ok, we're done here, no more debating if you, by a sweater, nearly over that but I ve been up to now, and then you like, twilight, that's letter anymore, where that's letter and then the third thing we're, like I don't know what is it about? That's what it is like that three times it's out the EU. Don't want that because you ve overcome the endowment affecting your mine. It's clear! This thing the thing should go, so I've got a racket. My closet, I got the terrible closet murmur. Of course, Yunker gets. Those one answer is awkward.
Terrible closet and is a rack of shirts and towards the back of the shooting rack of the sure too, because it is, is it or to access, doesn't go all the way ass, there's all the shirts that they don't wear them get rid of illness or you'll feel so good, because also send you have kind of an awkward closet, you'll feel so much better about I realise that if all that others have goes away, one hears Also as yourself like. You got five hers of pants at what point you where the fifth favorite you know, there's only like. Unless these things are truly distinctive, it's like how many shirts you haven't you. Actually are you gonna to like you're fifth most and he read sure know: you'd have maybe keep one because you're going to do something where you know you're gonna be eating a hot dog with catch of mustard and you think. Ok, maybe I'm just could explode everywhere, What will you don't even need bad leisure ATLAS. Do we take down, but you will that here's? What I predict, if you get,
the shirts. You will feel so good your clause. experience will be much better and you will feel like you more aware. So let me hear you. You said before that there are these little. things we can do, because that that the overall project can feel daunting. Yes, that, I think, is a thing for me that so busy. I would say the biggest problem in my life is not having enough time. Yes to you know, I would do this with my wife. Has she loves the stuff? So if I asked her to do it, you be delighted down, but it just felt it would feel like a bit Progress which I'd probably end of enjoying, but I Time is up with something else. I should do now instead that so here so I would say if, if it just you're exactly your situation, is you might say your wife? Like? Can we take ten minutes just tell me, do like a speed round in my closet, and just ever say this. This this because maybe you just need somebody to like kind of hold you to it and take his written
very very briefly, because you don't have time and if she really likes it should probably would be very willing to do that and it will help you get through and if you did, ten and it's a day for a week, you would see a total transformation of your stuff. Yes, That's actually right into what I do with my husband because he likes clutter clearing, he doesn't, he never just never occurs and to do its. Everyone, smile, Billig, Montgomery, your closet and I hold up to participate answer to whatever's at a time just a guess now and- and we get rid of think so flew away, and then one time I did it and ass he said I have never seen that per of pants before in my life, I've, like I, don't want to tell you somebody snuck in and put them here, the lake you didn't even know he had em, you know, and so it's just that speed round. Not you know just, get it that you're so so busy. The idea that you would take an afternoon and lake, let's go or reorganize the kitchen like that's just now. The thing can happen for like fifteen years, but you can
yet a lot. We tend to overestimate what we can do in a short time like an afternoon and under to make what we can do in the long term. If we do a small amount consistently, so you know ten minutes a day. especially for working with somebody else. You can kind of like help. You speed through it tendon what about what Kids, because I have half world he's a maxim bless. You got every had yell and transfer. Yes editor. How do we d clutter with these low monsters. Yet what you're in the season of stuff? I think it is helpful to just recognise there is there are seasons of stuff where there's a little kids have a lot of stuff. They have a lot of equipment, they have a lot of toys. They have a lot of things like giant class. Flying by the way he doesn't always spark from going gay. You gotta keep him anyway, one day, is some children arch, don't objecting,
you getting rid of some things like, especially because children like they get older and they don't necessarily want to keep things that they associate with being little You could maybe say: hey. Would you like more room for your toys? Now, let's go through? some children are like that some children want to keep everything, but you you do see and again it strange over and over when you take some boys away children the play more with the toys they have. It's like again it's the sense of engagement and accessibility, and I think of as some children too, I feel bad for them. Collective might. Can I talk to people were complaining, their kids are messy and never put anything like that. I'm like there's so much stuff here, it's like their sleep, a hundred, stuffed animals in here. How could you put them away he was the adult have to figure out how to how to help them manage that they just you now, every grandparent, Ariane, every uncle every birthday party. This is like so much they can deal with it, but one of the things we ve been doing, which have been happy to see that he has embraced, is
other kids out there don't have Minneapolis. Yet we dammit you cite further. Yes, no having children are veer, they really understand that they really get that and as an end as apparent to sometimes it's hard for parents like go things cost anything an important our children becomes important to us and we, You think about the fact that these two, this can go and live with another child it can help you let go. I remember we did a huge, hotter clearing and we got rid of like a lot of Fisher Price farm type things you know, and it was hard for me because I was like there's so nice, there such good quality I have so many happy memories allotted these. Things were kind of like the toys I'd had as a child's those all count cut tied up in that. But what so we enact can be sometimes hard to give away toys not authorised, or it will take to stores the choice. You have to make sure that you no place to give, but there's a woman, shelter that took toys, and so
my husband, my daughters. I went over there and were unloading, and I mean as soon as we brought a box out, there were mothers that we're just coming running to grab the for their kids, and you know any sadness that I felt was told Lee redeemed by the thought that a child would be able to play with the special rice, barn and get tremendous pleasure out of it. I'm just The child, who may be didn't have a lot of things, and so, if you can about your possessions going out into the world and and serving living out there, Destiny more with somebody else who can really use them it just it's a lot easier, so that's the keeping of keeping it serves. A mood declaring is no. You have to throw the stuff out. You ok, ebbed, away, give it away. Yes, if you can, if you can find a recipient, bore it yeah and their serve stores there all kinds of things that you can that you can do now centres. I think people get caught up too much into trying to find it. perfect beneficiary, like the name.
Who has the child at exactly the right size or you know, it's like you- want to have a few place is that you can give a lot to you know books they here in New York City. They do it a drive where, once a year they collect children's and picture books for New York City, school libraries, and this just a wonderful thing and like every year we dislike take over all the books that for one I ll read children's literature myself all the time. So I have a lot of books, give way good books, interesting books, and it's it's faint aspects. You sort of country need to keep your eye on roar. Who are there What are the organizations that can take the things that you are giving would but your view on minimalism seems to be a big trend right now. Oh, I think minimalism is something that some people like em is helpful for some people and I get it because I'm sort of on that end of things, probably myself, but I don't think it's right for everyone, and
Oh, I don't think a capsule wardrobe is right for everyone when capsule word I kept some order is when you like your fifteen items and they're all kind of like black white and grey or navy, blue and cream, and it's like everything matches and- and it's just this that you can get by with very few things in that actually easier and get it. Then you can buy better quality and for some people that's been tasked. But me was, I think, minimalism for its own sake. I just don't I think that everybody wants to get there and there are well who love collections and they love beautiful things, and they want to be surrounded with beautiful things and they like to buy them and talk a dam and show them to other people, and they like a lot in their life in its interests, Incas peoples and have said to me like well what you consider to be pleasingly minimal kind of beautiful emptiness, to me. Look sterile and stripped, and like a timeshare like I wouldn't want to live in a place like that. Looks too so cold and in so boring and then, like that's right
because for you, you wanna, be it in a different environment. So I think minimalism is great. If that is what you want, I dont that minimalism is necessarily something that everybody wants or should aim for. What do you think, though, that, maybe I'm lumping these together inappropriate lanes of correct me if I am but sees that both men Muslim and declaring an overlap in the Van Diagram, whom or really hot right now, and so what's going on in our country. These ideas have taken hold. You know, I I think part of it is that the world feels very, very noisy, and there is certainly a lot of incoming information and ideas there's a lot of uncertainty, thing still crowded and noisy and cacophonous I think that, as a result, people are very attracted to something that would mean that they would have more serenity and IE
in their everyday life. Now again, you could be in abundance over an abundance. Lover doesn't want liquor cord to to nothing lying on the floor or you know and plastic containers that They have lids the don't match, like that's, not abundant, that still clutter. So, even if you want to end up with abundance, if you get rid of everything, that's clogging the system, but I think so, whoever you whoever we're dealing with. I think this idea of like I can't. I can't control the world, but I can control my surroundings and can I bring more clarity and more ease and more spaciousness too, my surroundings I'm guessing now, but I think there may be to other contributing guess what one is. I think you already touched on, but I think it's that the digital can cacambo. Yeah, but not that we feel so overwhelm gal the time under this endless. Yes, the still provides a sense of agency, and the other, and under this was hit upon quite strenuously
in that movie. Minimalism, which was quite popular Netflix, only know that, because I was actually randomly and he asked me about it all the time, even though not a minimalist other become friends with the minimalist, the guys who made it another thing is theirs it, especially among young people right now, a lot of serious questioning of capitalism at its excesses Oh, I think I think when related to that is demographics. I think when you are you, Person is much easier to be minimal when for forty five years old. You have thirty three kids and you just inherited all the stuff from your mom, then you're kind of like well. Maybe I'm not an and minimalist note like a lot of people are like you does need a backpack in a tent in one copy of your favorite book, and you can stride freely through the world. Am I don't think that's gonna work for man come back to me in twenty years and see how you doing so. I do think that part of it, is also as that are our demographics are changing. Many people are getting into a situation where they ve got stuff coming at them from the bottom and from the top and their dealing with it. But I know I think, that the cap
was an absolute the sharing culture. The idea I dont need to own it. I dont me, and I remember when people had huge collections of cds, and it was a major part of pupils identity and how they projected them. delves into the world and when you met somebody would look at their cd collection just the way. Now you look there but collection, which even that You know people on this. The idea that you need there's all this stuff about how people younger people buying diamond rings, they're not buying ex there there renting their clothing instead of buying their clothing, so yeah right there not acquiring in the way that work have historically been accustomed to an end. That is as a consequence of and contributing to a different sense of clutter innocence. Also that the excesses Capitalism that that we ve been around in our are innate desires in genuine hyper extenuate by marketing and advertising. It said one click, one click percha, yes, yeah yeah, I think.
I think I think all that's a very, very good point. I think that's absolutely contributing to it and in an end the thing that's just strange to me- and I see I just seen it over and over and over it just. Why Is it that people just feel. or com and yet more energized, more focused and more with like they have more sense of possibility when they just go through there's something get rid of those things that they don't need. User love. It's it's a friend of mine said I finally cleaned up. A fridge, and now I know I can switch careers I get it, you know utter none, but by noon cleanup know how that feels. Right, I mean centimes gather is progressing declaring so there's here's helpful, preparation. Amateur yeah we're gonna, write grass, throw grass declaring so helpful preparation is when like I cleaned out the fridge. Now it can switch careers or when you're like you know, I need to start any report, so I'm just gonna immediately
some time and I want to get rid, I'm just and a clear through my desk and we get everything ready and now I'm focused and ready. That is great focus. I feel sorry to interrupt. Yes, but I feel, like my west gonna, kill me for saying this, but she's guilty of a load of this, so she's got a big pray. But you can't get to her till she does every other little per ok, that's programme declaring progress. Declaring is when it's not that I'm just getting myself ready for something. But it's like you know what bookshelves, have been this way for three years and never bother me before, but now that I'm worried after at the annual report I feel like. I cannot possibly start the annual report until these books sir cleared out or like every my heart, my apartment be spotless, that's not helpful preparation that is cross declaring anyways know of it for across declaring, if the minute that the task is done all desire to deal with the clutter vanishes, sister, who is very, very messy, says she only has for cross to clear if she has any desire to clear clutter at all, it is only
procrastination, device and so she's like never do it I mean it's only. It's only because she's trying to make excuses for herself what for you as an individual in the hardest part in this cluttering, situation. Do you a guess? I do and it's closed its. I used the florid robe, which is I just throw things on. Or have to say- and I have this like little table and the edge of us- you know some furniture I don't like to wear real close. I try to wear yoga pants all the time. It's a great stir. Sign of my deference in my respect, for you do that. I'm actually wearing jeans here instead of young fancy and interested in the course of a day cuz, it's sort of a weird schedule, as a writer that I just end up, painting my clothes out like I'll, have to dress for this and then dressed for that, and just for this address for that and like my husband is so good, he just close away. The many changes clothes you just put this closely and I've really gotten it's better about that. But that is my that's right out the here's. What I
about myself, because it my view is that you really have Taylor, your habits and your pro two year particular challenges in your interesting to kind of even the temper of your day, and so what I realise is that I was trying to clear: do put these close away at the end of the day and I'm really a morning person. So the night is a time of very low energy for me, but I'm here a high energy in the morning and it's almost kind like a restless energy averse like I'm walking my dog, I'm making coffee like this sort of I'm gonna burning them off, and so now, when I have closed, I will often do First thing in the morning which, think what you should go to bed with everything put away like, but I find it much easier to do and much more pleasant to do as part of my more. This is like, I'm getting ready for my day, someone put away the clothes from yesterday. The just works better with my personal energy cycle. What about you? As a writer? I am asking this. Let me just say a front for that was himself interest
as a writer, I find that clearing clutter off. My desk makes the writing process much each year. Absolutely no and I'm one of these people where I will. I am sure constantly writing down notes- and I have three you know and I'll have documents out that are that are like. I need to look at that I'm. This is to remind me about this, and I've got my running to do list for some reason. I just take out pens one after another after another weekend of the 15th. I, why can't use the same pan? I don't know So what I do is a ten minute closer at the end of every every time I leave my desk. I tried to take ten minutes and just put away. The pain is in the pain cups. The documents back where they belong goes through to do list and re copy it. If I guess I've gotten a lot of things done, so it does have the things that are undone, and I do I in that it makes it much easier to focus, and also like if I leave my office and come back and makes it much more pleasant to re enter, because part of it is like getting back in the chair
and if there is a lot of junk- and why are like, I will sometimes because I like to post interesting articles. Two and social media are like. Oh here's, you know copy newspaper Arena magazine page that I ripped out that I want to be like. Oh, I should look up that study and linked to it or something I just take time. This, can be like do this. Do this? Do this? Do this get rid of it all and move forward it it's funny, how alike a bit of an investment in clearing cluttering creating order can then I feel like really energize you keep using our energy costs cuz for media give out. Our order is really really connected to energy. It I can get you that energy not focused too to Sudan and tackle something like writing, which is very intellectually demanding really worse thing. Humans have ever met you, you thought before about about how the fluttering can improve or reduce conflict it s office. What about
at home. Well few. This is very interesting to me because it too Now that I'm more fortunate that I realize, because my husband, as I mentioned, has been jamie- and I are very well matched in terms of what love- all of order and disorder that were comfortable with and I didn't realize how rare that was. It's pretty unusual. It seems like with most caught couples, there's a pretty big the gap between what person fills comfortable with and what the other person pills country So it is a very common conflict, so One thing that you can do is you can make sure that each person has room of their own now Virginia said: everyone should have a room of their own or writers. Sir Nicht at Virginia Well said Virginia well, yeah set out your sister. Him elusive. Cried Elizabeth! Yes to go home, did you ever hear of life like it so Britain, I said you know: writers have a room of their own,
and not everybody can have room of their own specialty like in New York City. But you can. You have like a desk or in air, where you can have your things. The way you want them, where nobody's going to borrow from you or put something there or clean it, your say, so I think for some people who disorderly as long as they have a place to put things than they can be more orderly in the public areas of the shared space. So can you find a place for them to have their if they want to have an finish, scrap book out for a month, Kenny is there a place for them to do that words, not like the kitchen table? other thing is to really watch out for clutter Maggie. and these are, the areas in our house were clutter to see. to accumulate like we had this place in our kitchen counter, where this is just like the dump zone? And If you really are vigil, about every day, getting the thing out of that that caught her magnet a lot of times, you will stop that clutter from accumulating.
areas are messy, tend to get monsieur and peoples some ass, they will contribute to it. And so, if you have somebody who's, you're trying to encourage to be need, her you get rid of those quarter magnets a lot of times it's for them to manage their stuff, and then things don't get lost as Martin about one thing that I love, if you ever, have travelled with a family. What, then, is to drive me these. People were constantly, whereas the sun, This is where the room keys, whereas the map, whereas this unscreened. So what? Now, whenever we travel- and even do this by myself now but mostly with families, I create a bowl of requirement which, just like the rumour of requirement in Harry Potter and anything we have to keep them, Have we given his ball or on this trade, so the sunglasses, the air. the wall at the loose change labour that the room keys go there and then this is important. If you see something. In some random, plays for somebody to randomly put it up, put it where it belongs in the bowl of requirement, because when people travel,
They don't have their usual habit to where they keep things. Are things tend to get misplaced much more because they don't have the place where they usually keep their keys, cause there in a completely different environment? So that's a weight to manage things getting placed or lost in of the hubbub of a family vacation like that more ten percent happier this when it comes to hiring you don't have time to waste. You need help getting to your short list of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need. Indeed dotcom gets done, today at indeed dot com, Slash Dan H, that's indeed, dot com, Slash Dan H, capital. One is building a better bank, one feels and acts, nothing like a typical bank. That's why they're re imagining banking and building something completely different. They are accounts with no fees or minimums capital, one this banking re imagined what in your wallet. capital one in a
frightful came into the studio to record this. We were on the set of weekend good Morning, America recording what we call weekend. Download yeah these ninety seconds said it's that airline and- and we I there lightning rounds where I asked you about your questions. I rather be worth going back into the the questions I asked you on on GM may here, because you if you look more time, oh great, oh, what are they? talk about was an important thing. What in the fight against the clutter is self knowledge? Yes, knowing how you accumulate how you buy. Why you why you just unpack that grass? because when you understand yourself, you understand like why certain kinds of issues keep cropping up and then you can
set them or recognise them, or somebody else has a habitat. Your finding really annoying. You can say like a well. Maybe this is what's going on. This is how I could perhaps help or discourage or least understand it. So, for instance, One thing that comes up is that some people are over buyers and some people are under buyers, so over buyers the people who love de Vie, who loved to shop it they're, going on a trip, their buying fifty things if there are to have a new baby, their buying a hundred things there there caught, they buy lots of stores in fifteen tubes of toothpaste and they deal with clutter because they have to manage all this stuff, and then also me, Do they can't even remember what they have or Iver friend, whose an overriding and shit a new baby and she about all the winter clause for the baby, but, of course, the baby is bigger than expected in the growth and in the end, that went when a guy called that Europe, nothing that and nothing worked at all. she bought an entire winner, wardrobe that never fit or baby because she was just trying to. over buying in advance, so over virus should think.
You know I dont need to prepare for everything. I can wait to see what I need, and I dont need to have so much keep stores. I jump me. Fifteen tubes of toothpaste, you know that's like lifetime supply, then there under buyers and under buyers of people. Like me, I thought I was the only one, but it turns out there. Many under buyers- and these are bellew- does don't like to shop. They don't like to buy weirdly. They were often by very late leg. I use sailing solution on the time. I would buy one bottle at a time, even though I had to go back and by more times you somehow dissimilar. India buying through bottles at once. Why it's its irrational? I got it and they will often they dont like things that are overspecialized like I didn't, never had bought like facial tissue it's all! I had a family because linked to spoil your nose in toilet paper like who that's, who needs a special product further in our. Why would I use, air conditioner seasick to specialised anyway, over and over bars often won't get something until they actually actually have to have it sitting. But if you try,
You go by mittens in the middle of February. They might not have the way they would have usually under buyers here no virus like they dont. Let there always buying things at the lesson early. I need ski pants for my speech of tomorrow. Oh they don't have. My size is like yeah. Can you they're not for so long- and I have this big problem- you would think, will undermine. Probably dont have clutter because they don't want to buy things but the problem of under viruses. They hate the idea of going out buying something so much that they will keep everything for fear that what if one day I decided, I did what that electric proved purple sweater and then go, get one So I should just hang onto this one, even though I haven't worn in five years. I don't even like it so underwear. such remind themselves like it's ok to buy, you will feel better if you make. If you take the time really push. Self to get enough to carry you over and if there is something that you really really are not using you, Let it go because,
The occasion may never arise when you needed and if so you can go to a mall, it is possible, it will not kill you. It strikes me as I said here. Listen you talk, as was done this many times that you were saying: Ricardo has the serve one size fits all approach with youth. You talk about our work broader set of issues in your career than cluttering guess. Now we're talking with like we ve talked about habit formation and we take what general happiness you you you you strike me in honour of this. Is a analogy you will like or not like swiss army knife, Just areas like I'd rather tat tat, I could throw Amy question that you will have six really insanely useful things to say, doesn't land for you. I want it so nicely here. I hope so yeah. That would be great. I would love to think of myself as the swiss army knife. I didn't think Might myself to this human nature like that's what I'm always thinking about, and so it sort of like you know,
at one time or get really really interested in habits and how habits you know what that's just one slice of human nature, but then through it, you see a lot of other things that I give a nature and again outer order feels like this kind of did stamp on the large parcel of human nature, but there's a ought to be learned? I've always ever since as long as long as I can, member and certainly in law school, been really really interested in people's relationships to possessions were I! How do we feel about the things that we own a night? This was a big element and happier at home my book about home that I've always, I feel like, I feel, like that's so interesting size really happy to have the opportunity to really think about in this way this is aiming to snub possessions generally, but just about the things that we really dont want Swiss hurry nephews. Maybe it's the right analogy, but part of what you do. Is you talk about these super?
superficial things that we can. You owe you put to get a bowl of, require document right now also connected yeah, deep human needs, well, that is true, and you know it's funny, but it's like if the bowl of requirement means that your family vacation is full of fine and tenderness. light heartedness instead everybody being incredibly cranky cause? You had to spend forty five minutes, looking for you, somebody's phone that is going to have a benefit ministers You know. I've often talked about the importance of sleep. The thing is You are really chronically under slept. Everything in your life is going to be hard at your relationship, books, everything's going to be either relationships are going to be harder, eating is going to be harder, exercising is going to be harder, making fun plans is going to be harder. Everything is going to be harder and the set of snooze alarm to go to bed on time. It's like that sounds like ok, that's not rocket science. No, it's not rocket science, but that's what I think is really encouraging, because a lot
Can we really can get to these more transcendent values, like are and love for other people, our ability to manage ourselves and issues of mastery. Our ability to ask more from ourselves really is very often tide, Did these little data they fangs? And the fact is you really might be able to write your book more easily. If you can and off all the junk on your cork board that this kind of visually over stimulating you every out of the corner of your eye, every time you look at it, it's a small thing, but it's the irritants it's a little bit of sand that if you got it out of the works, just might make it a little bit easier and I to me it's. It feels like low hanging fruit from a lot at the things I write about their things that you can do with a lot of time, energy or money. So why wouldn't you to make your life easier and then happier healthier, more creative, more productive with these little things,
its creating the conditions. Yes, yes, yes, yachting error. That's going to put our us too, as yet it before access our deeper vote. Yes, users, researcher long wanted to have on the show. I haven't. Had IRAN yet Christine poorer I believe her name is had Georgetown. She writes about civility, yes and one I think I said the steward chatting before we start recording, but one of the first things she will apparently tell people when they're asking about her either be more civil themselves or create a more civil environment in their workplace, her home Don't you think it more sleep. Pa where'd you is about creating, Structured the life of a live thing. You know you we ve, we talk about this as well in my listeners will know. I had this three six you review, have Verizon Emma Jane, no damaging with a very damaging in some ways, but also incredibly important and meaningful, and there are a lot of levels to that steps that I'm taking subsequently some of the levels are seemingly superficial and making sure
I haven't time enough sleep, an exercise in play time and my son and my wife making, that my professional commitment or in order at order Lee and not I'm not over committed, etc, etc, which these are not character. a larger, no ordinary ritual ass, beautiful things, but they create the conditions to go a deeper when I see that in a lot of your work, yet no, I absolutely agree, and it's it's by and also something the transcendent values are more abstract, and but by doing these concrete things, we elect we kind of give ourselves the bandwidth to turn outward and to think about more transcend issues and to think about the problems of the world. You know some people think like. Oh, if you take the time to work on yourselves and do self care, and you know that you didn't you a word about getting on sleep while you're does it's too selfish and spoiled on organ? I think that in a world so full of suffering, it's really not morally appropriate to think about your own happiness or your own. You know whatever
but really what research shows is that happier. People are more interested in the problems of the world. Are more interested in the problems of the people around them. They're more likely to donate money or volunteer time or to vote turns out that being happier and well rested in having energy doesn't make people wanted drink. My ties beat it makes them want to go register people to vote now, So really, there is any talk about this all the time that is like we take care of ourselves, and that allows us to turn outward and if we don't do that, if we don't do that again like like, it is like letting your saw your body get run down, but then letting yours you're space get out of control. We, you can't find anything that you need where everything like early for you to pay your shirt back in is just it's. U have to jam it in their. So hard mean these things, just they accumulate over time. They just it's a death of a thousand cuts,
and, as you said before, sending originated with me. I m much of what you say does but imprint one thing it stood out that I didn't come Anton was we're talking about making your des pleasant place to work, yet it you can go back to work just as it gets back in the chair. Will many of us are engaged in work that we feel is important in the world and if our fist, The environment is actually an obstacle. The hours engaging in that work will then we ought to think about it. Uttering, even though it may seem like something you had been watching Netflix, yeah for not yet her deep yeah yeah willingness you talking about how a new boss, small but significant changes that just made it more pleasant was. I will now maybe people sort of sit in the sitting area and like have attended a conversation? then that's gonna Joey's been people's personal connections and when all the research, shows- is that when you set of people, are you happy at work when the biggest factors is? Do I have a friend at work?
so I feel warm warmly. Do I feel connected to the people that I work with. Do I feel like they really care about me as a person? Not just this person filling this role. So these little things actually end up having river relations in a higher aspects of our lives. I want to move on to some non declaring stuff, but the book before I do that. You said before that I said before that I want to talk about it. After we talked about on GM another thing we know about Angie, I was there's something about hacking. the way we shop he that can reduce costs shouldn't you go into your shopping tips. Yes, a one shot wanted. Something tat is if you d, this is especially useful for over buyers that anybody who kind of shops- thinking! Well, maybe I'll need this. This could come in handy or I should stock up on this. I'm instrument, You can always stored at the store bs. Its might be when he Andy, but you can just leave it where it is. You know that it's there you'll start at the store and then, whenever you want to go, get it in go, get it
so that's one way to resist shopping. Another is impulse person does online many people get into that kind of eleven p M one glass of wine clicking around the internet, doing online shopping and make a lot of impulse purchase. Does that end up being things that they don't need user love? So wonderful do is to eliminate your accounts so that you are always shopping as a guest. So If you really want something and need something, you will go through the steps of entering your shipping information, your billing information, your credit card information, every time or you might is really. Oh, my gosh, I'm too tired. If you know I'll wait till the morning and then when the morning comes, probably you'll never think about that item again now, if you're, store, because just like online and stores are carefully designed to try to tempt us at every turn. Do not take a basket or a cart. You can possibly avoided because
the more income gap is about inconvenience, the more inconvenient it is to add things cheer pile on the morning of a nuisance. It is to walk through the store holding it demur. Likely you aren't you decide, you know I'd I'd, only that right now, if I needed, I can get it another time because the easier. It is the more play, we already just throw things in it have you been giving it a second bought em? You come home from the storing you like, oh my gosh. I completely forgot about that thing. You could just have not bought it. you said something before we are recording that that interesting, you and I have talked a lot about eating yes and, in particular, sugar. The viewpoint of the same wiring, yes for sure, and you said in an you, didn't explain its I'm gonna get. You responded now that actually de cluttering can help with the over eating. Yes, talk about that. Ok! So one of the things about eating helpfully.
is that it comes from a sense of self mastery and in my book better than before, which is all about habit change. I talk about all the ways you can go about, trying to change a habit, there's a lot of different ways, different approaches you can use, but at that foundation of all. These is the idea that you knew you are using self mastery you're asking yourself to do one thing and not another, I'm so herself. Mastery again sleeping is really important for bastard getting a little bit of exercise these things they keep your energy up, but also Your environment can contribute to yourself mastery and because, partly because of how you engage with it and then also partly about the identity that its reflecting back to you. So just imagine yourself, just imagine yourself, walk into your kitchen. Does your own kitchen at ten p m tonight and theirs. Bag of open potato chips on a counter and if you open four generator there's like leftovers, but the tinfoil isn't quite down. on some of them and you open up a cabinet and there's like a beverage farm cookies package like with the flu. Oh
then at the ready. And think in can artist like or maybe there's like a bag of chocolate, raisins like in a plastic bag. Nearly at the sick, a hand fall you now to take a few ships and just wandering through what's in here, and it doesn't contribute to your sense of self mastery. If walked into your kitchen and everything was closed tight the cookies were closed side and on the high shelf. The potato chips were closed highly and I shall do drivers were all put away nicely. The counters were wiped, the cabinets were closed and the door off and in the light was off and you walk into the kitchen. Do you think be like oh now, I'm gonna grab a hunted like too I'll. Just take one cookie discover handling you just wouldn't you it would take a lot more. You would have to overcome many boundaries and it's just like everything's been put away. If you much more like my I at
has sent everything is orderly and in its place and here's another thing you can do brush your teeth. Because again brushing your tea. That, like oh, I ve already brush my teeth, or am I now gonna eat that cooking and asked her? I came to the field of my own actually sent his weight wealth. I think on a number what was it creates a feeling in your mouth that then kind of turned it into its it sort. makes you not want to eat. I don't know I think it also signals to the body we're done. Like I've rush Menteith after dinner, we brushed our teeth, it's done and it sort of put you out of the mindset of grazing, because somebody ball and I used to do this myself. So I know exactly how it is it's a gift but then like then there's the nine o clock snack than theirs. The ten o clock we just under the area, my wife and I struggle with this model, so try closing down your kitchen. Put everything like closed the Joseph Jody. Your kitchen, or no now or at least turn out the lights. to shut down his Ambrosch narrative umbrella security from rice, lily flaws here. Do because its again, it's like that part of the day is over eating,
time is over and we are now headed to bet you can even to put on your predominance because this, now we only when I'm home, I never take off my pajamas. Ok, there staring out right, yoga, pants, ah, an acceptable alternative joke about Jarvis, but that again is the self mass and then also when everything is put away easily your more inclined to push them. I think a lot of times, people don't put things, awakens it's hard to put them things away. You now because there's just like too much stuff damned a narrow, but if you really go through and everything's just put in its place it just theirs, an orderly sense and the fact that our environment is orderly, makes you feel more. Orderly also makes you, feel more in command of yourself Think that it really can it really can help, and also one of the things that I feel like this very met with food is. If you see it occurred to you that you want it. If you don't see it, you can you can
forget about it much more easily than nothing, I would see this with my children because they like make a pan of brownies near, like you literally just made this town of bread pan of brownies, but I put it away. I just cover it up and put it on the shelf. They don't think about it. You know until they're, like oh yeah, yeah, you don't get it not if it's a sitting on the counter people can be eatin brownies all day long is happening. We live I ate a healthy dinner, but then there is like pretzels Brad all out on the table on the counter and it occurred to me. I wanted to get aid a time in the night of us see, and even if you hadn't eaten any of it, you would have had to be like Donnie. The Brussels Denny thread done it yet done either eradicate. There was a lot of friction. It's a lot of friction, now. That's why I believe for me, it's easier just to never eat it at all, because then I'm not tempted by the pretzels cuz. I never depressed. Am I going to go pretzel dog because I don't eat pretzel so that that's my solution, but for most people it's easier just out of sight out of
really really works of temptation, but to the bay, the APS utter complete abstinence road, which you talk me into You bullied me kindly and not enough, not and not productive in the best sense of the term. Bully the giving up sugar for ever thing has made a huge difference, because now we do have cause I've for Euro there's, there's little yeah sweet things. All this non options were not struggling as I do want it yeah I do and I work on good morning, American and there are constantly bringing out low sugary Theseus tariff TV. As MRS there's, a tv writer and its she talks about the evil done at Bringer, like the person is like On top of everything else, we have bring it in Doha, you know, and then you is those the placement b, Your guy, who doesn't each sugar anymore as young advised me to be, has really changed. That one is, if you just don't eat it than the lot of the D. The decision
big of resistance deciding yes, now now later, one two three as my birthday, it's raining. This is one of a kind. These are the best there, the you now. These were flung from LOS Angeles from the best cupcake maker in the world. Got any sugar a few, those copy for great but sir, and I think for people like you and me have really really serious. We tooth it's like you, dont want the minute that sweet tooth gets debated it's on a Monday. I dont want to have won by because now I can happily What I will have is like, let's see, somebody's having a weird ice cream flavour like creamed corn ice cream recently, I will have a better that cause. I just want to know what it tastes like, but I would I have like I'm going to have a bite. I won't have one bite of a chocolate chip cookie because then I'm like then I'll just want to then I'll want a whole cookie, and then I want ten cookies and it's just too It's too boring to have this thought this is easier, not Tammany, but this does.
for everyone. We should be clear: this is abstain or more time at abstainers. Abstainers are people for whom it's easier give up things altogether. They can have none or they can have like fifteen this very for them to have a little bit, but our moderators. This is a thing people. Some people are moderators. They you'd better when they have a little bit when they have something sometimes and they get caught, panic, rebellious, when there told they can never have something and like are on our plied cast happier are for producer was a moderator and he would have like one piece of fines. every other Dana's mother gave him this box like beautiful, violent and it would stale because he would just how like one piece every other day like I would hit the whole thing of all I mean I just like, I might as well needed at eight a m, because otherwise my whole days like what about that chocolate that here the true moderator, and so there is no reason for moderators to try to abstain, but some who's moderator say to me. A few here this, it's not helping to be sorry
you shouldn't demonize certain food. You should follow the eighty twenty rule likes you shortly to brownie and, unlike that, we're for you, it doesnt work for me. then I want to set a moderators wanting. You just go call Turkey. Why do you keep breaking the rules, wouldn't it be easier just to take this up the table, but I have to recognise not for moderators. They want to have three french fries. They want to have one square. Fine, chocolate they want to have half brownie I could never have half around me. I feel you before we before we both died. One does one last everyone to get into an enemy is maybe Bulgaria, or maybe not- I don't know I haven't. I ve, never ass you this before. I just wonder ass is looked at human nature and happiness for so long. What thoughts do have in the era of Trump Isler unhappy and then- and there fighting without with each other, and the news is freaking us out, and so whenever I'd IRAN there's axed in agenda, so I just wondered if you had any views, but I think that one thing
that's important to remember is back to this idea of self management and I think we need to find ways to manage ourselves, even in the face of it, for our distress like I've done people who are like a well. I I started looking again after the election, and unlike you, need to handle your feelings. Wait, don't make you start smoking again, because that's not helping anybody. It's only hurting and it's you need to find a different way to respond, for people and I've seen this over and over does my life is that people are responding by trying to get involved, and that is a great way to take that energy and that anxiety, which is to say I want to be part of a solution. Want to figure out how we can do something about her way. I want to stand up for my values. And in that way, I think people feel that they can
redeem in some way, things that they find distressing because they're like maybe this thing has happened, but I can try to make something good from it and whether that working on. Voter registration are getting involved in political campaigns are even like you to trying to engage more deeply with people who have different beliefs to try to understand. Why do they have those beliefs? Can I try to help them understand my beliefs and why? I think Brighton they're wrong. Can I try to understand why they think they're right and I'm wrong? You see happening all over and I think that's the most positive thing that can come, but I would say also, if you feel overwhelmed by, does the constant stream of information try to find ways to to me. and it's that, whether it's only reading news or watching news for a certain amount of time or having times of your day, that arbs device free or screen free, finding
is to manage the incoming information. So that you get. What you need to know to be an active involves, civic member of society, Specifically civically minded member of society, but you know, funding ten hours a day because you're not learning anything in our lot. From from the ninth hours of the tenth, our instead listen more happiness, very that's one solution. Speaking of pipe having his progress, I think the last thing I love to do just get people to plug everything. I shall tell us about your Pakistan's about your books, websites, where you can Finally, what you're familiar giving to give us everything indeed I do have a broadcast called happier with Gretchen Reuben, which I do with my sister lists of craft, is a very successful television writer producer in Hollywood, and she is also very messy. So we ve been having a lot of turkey fun talking about clutter together
and that comes out once a week. It's all about how to be happier right on that, and then I have website, Gretchen Reuben, not calm, and that's where you can get tons of information about all my books and I have all kinds of discussion guides and manifestos, and when one pagers and charts and all kinds of things you can listen to audio book excerpts if you want to think of you want to listen to the audio book. You can read an excerpt if you're wondering if a book would be interesting to you and I'm on social media Oliver Place as Gretchen Reuben I'm an I ll, up to engage with listeners and readers and viewers all about happiness could have human nature mindfulness. clearing clutter all these things you're the best? Thank you, This is so I love coming to talk to you. I really love have again on the show. I also love just talking to her at any point and we spend time without microphones around around chit and she just the the
The level of the speed with which she spews out fascinating ideas is just the thing to behold, so I can pretty much guarantee that this will not be regions last visit to this podcast. So thanks again for wretched for two gretchen for coming on and
more come? I told your voice knows hears number one high. Then this is better from San Francisco and I've been listening to your asked and your pod cast for about five months now, and I've learned so much and really appreciate it, and in fact I find out before my first violent retreat spirit rock enjoying a hearty is gonna, be one of the instructors. It's called true belongings and it's a sixty silent retreat with love anything you can share about silent retreats. I know you covered a little bit in your pot cast withstand terrorist recently, but questions I, which have basic questions like what you pack, or even what you don't pack and had used at a crossroads, someone at a table eating and not able to talk to them. What happens if an anxiety or panic attack happened? How is that handled as asylum retreat? So any insight you'd be deceived. I'd love, I'm a little
already about it that looking for well. Thank you so much, then that I thank you. Those are excellent questions of me to say. First of all, you need to be anxious european really good hands. There are meditation retreat centres across the country, but you're going to one of the absolute best Spirit Rock, which is in a Believe Marine County north of sandwiches. go and you're gonna Joanna Hardy, who has been on this by gas before it is one of the stellar teachers. The ten percent happier app and and all around superior human being, so you are in really good hands. Let me just say before I dive into these specific answers. Your question for those of you their listen, this and thinking. Well, I can't go on a retreated exit can't afford. Or because I don't have the time, oh by the way in terms of affording it inside invitations society and spirit Rock both give scholarships so Money is the issue you can enquire about that
anyway. There are those you out there who just don't want to go into a tree, tackle energy whatever it. Sometimes this discussion of retreats. had triggers him insecurity endowed make people feel a God man, I'm not doing this thing, so I'm a failed meditate or no. That is not true. You can. absolutely be a head held. Sorry head held high, the card carrying bona fide method later. If you do in five to ten minutes most days or just a few minutes some days, an aspiration to eventually yet to a daily practice it it's all good. That's Haitian, like all held the abbots, it's it's hard to establish yourself break. You don't need to go all the way to a meditation retreat in order can see yourself, somebody who's doing the thing and nothing? It's many. Many benefits are right that cat get out of the way I do. The retreat are amazing and they can be a great way to put the practice in here. You know molecule
rules so that you are so that they have the habit is deeply ingrained. So I went on my first meditation retreat after a year of five to ten it's a day and from there really. You know I had an experience on their retreat. I hated it first and then I really then that I hated it again, but that loving it moment really get in the old in me for lack of a less loaded, word, faith, that there is true death to this practice and put my practice on steroids. So, in terms of your advice, which you pack, you gonna spare Rockets in California, ISIS assume it's so you said it soon. So can we can almost spring? You know it's not gonna, be super cool, whether if you're going to be inside meditation society in Massachusetts I would recommend winter clothes and boots at this time of year, because you're gonna want walk in the woods in Europe do not want to be freezing bets beer rock. You know I think ii package for reasonably warm weather
may maybe Chile mornings and nights you're up early and late so you'll be a little chile Lotta swept pants because you shouldn't around, essentially when I go in retreat, I pack just tonnes swept pants tons of weapons so and sweatshirts, because you want to be well, when you're sitting in the chair, as I don't think, you're gonna want like tight, fitting tailored tapered cock is there anything like that in terms of sitting across from seventy eight a table and eating without looking in the many I for me, I mean yes, it's weird though the whole thing is weird, but The hardest part is not all of the stuff around like not talking or being in a room full of people eating in nobody's looking at each other. That's all strange. The hardest part is just like meditating all day every day. That is very, very challenging. It's all the things that I think now speaking for myself, that all the things
I thought would be we're going in like not talking, etc, etc. That that's not the issue. The issue is the practice itself very challenging its incredibly rewarding and worthwhile, but that to me is what is always the hard work so yeah I mean yeah you're reading across from somebody in and the whole point is to be eating silently and mindfully, and actually doing this radical thing that we very rarely do in our regular lives, which is taste your food, maybe put the fork down between bite, so you're not like simultaneously chewing, while hunting around the plate for your next month I mean that's all the whole retreat is to break these lifelong habits of auto pilot of being in it on, I dont pilot and so eating is just a part of that. It's a little awkward, but I it's not insurmountable. You will survive that in terms of yours, I figure greatest fear was anxiety and if you had an anxiety attacker I gotta get back and let me assure you they are
well set up to deal with this and are all there are ice care, more robust Iraq, specific you bet, inside meditation society, there's like a special phone. You can pick up. I think it's a red phone, there's somebody there all the time to answer your call. If you're in distress, you they'll, give you instructions about this spear rock. I can't remember what the phone looks. But there are systems in place to deal with people who were freaking out. I don't think it super common, but it does happen and there were of it, because when you slow down and you're, not no longer surrounded by the distractions, various addiction, himself self medications of daily life, your tv, your twitter, feed, you're glass of wine. It's your your ability to go. shopping all the things we do to keep ourselves away from our primordial sadness or fear. Whatever their things, things can come up, it doesn't happen, everybody, but it can happen and that the people who run this retreat their professionals- they ve, been doing this for decade thereof
I'll be right there for you, so you can go talk to somebody in the main office pick up the phone. If it's in urgency in the middle of the night go. Take your teachers, you're gonna, be met, I believe, with profound levels of expertise and compassion. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. One piece of advice, and I will give you just that I would you myself going into every retreat. I never followed this advice. I was the re learn this lesson, which is, I guess, maybe two parts of it. One is. you know, emotions are gonna, come up and I You know I know, because I've written books about this and I an about on the past all the time that the important thing is not what you're feeling four things not to get so to analyze. Why? My so sad? Is it because this happened to me when I was seven or whatever the important thing Two, no, clearly that you are feeling a thing and to investigate it, mindfully not to wallow in it, but to see our thoughts is similar,
provoking what's hazard, how is it showing up in my body and then to see its impermanence, and that is incredibly powerful to see if these various mind states come and go and we don't need to be owned by them. But, of course, for me and my first couple days, a retreat, whatever comes up often at some sadness, dislike ancient homesickness. That comes up from here where's couple days- and I are- I always get stuck and then some teacher in the evening dormitory reminds me: oh yeah, that it's it's just about seeing these things come and go and then and then I breathe a sigh of If the other piece of advice give you is don't push to heart now. This is me, self really cause. I don't know you in, and you may not be this type, but I find that I am I'm just trying to advance my pride he's trying to win, trying to do the best job possible and I'm expecting achieve wherever results I might have achieved, and my last retreat or x ray
he would have results. I might have read about in a book- and this is the like some weird video game, where you can't advance as long as you want to do. you have to shift into this odd mode of dropping your expectations. wrapping desire, which is a classic hindrance in the Buddhist Schema, and when you do that the whole thing starts to move and that's easier said than done and can often take days of bang your head up against the wall again in my experience, so that was a dose of the two. That's a lot of advice. I've, given you you, probably remember all that, but good luck to you, I'm excited for you and I think it's a really great thing to do next. Voicemail, here we go again. This is narrowly from California, and my question is about meditating with TAT, though I
two cats and occasionally, while I meditating they liked me under over and start looking for some petting, and I'm just wondering how to sort of incorporate the cats into my meditation practice when they need attention. I've tried putting them in another room, but that doesn't oh well as they distort sit in the other room and cry, and I live in a fairly small condo, though that's my question. Thanks a lot by not a long common problem if you're meditating at home. So I ll give you some. thoughts Louis and we start with a story. I heard a meditation teacher as on a retreat years ago and there's a meditation teacher. They can pronouncing his name correctly. Matthew, Daniele, Matthew, we ve never met. So I hope you don't mind me still
your story and probably mangled it, but I remember Matthew telling a story about meditating in his back yard in a tent, and he had these very aggressive cats who were just me. I M going crazy and try to get in this damn tent and he was pissed that was very annoying and was showing up his meditation. Anyone noticing is annoyance and listening to their noises, etc, etc. in this drama went on for a while until he just let the cats in and once you let the cat, they just sat next to him while he meditated it was just fine and Matthews, the story on two levels, as you might imagine one is you know how the other animals when they want to get him while your meditating and the other is. This is a great analogy for how we are with our difficult emotion. You know better Hall Hole, DOT Ii mentioned it off and on retreat. I experienced this kind of powerful resuscitation of the homesickness I felt when I was on when I was at summer camp when I was
boy- and I realise that I probably been running from that feeling my whole life and I don't want to let it in on retreat, but actually work Can you let it in when you just stop fighting? It is pretty much you know, curls up in your lap, it's it's the fighting it that feeds it. And yes, I was that there was such an interesting steal that move up with my next book anyway. Thank you Mathieu for that story. I'll give you credit I was but button, but but I too, as it pretends your cat, that's the advice. I would give you and I do this with my cats. I have three rescue cats you get cast by the way, go to your local shelter and and save a life, and you know. Sometimes I come over and sit my lap and, like that's cool, if you're doing, if I'm doing breath meditation where I really want to be focused on the feeling in my breath coming and going out, that could be they can build
tracking in that sense, because maybe they're purring or I feel their approach you're, I feel the half of them my lap. So often, if that's, if they're there, I will switch over an open awareness or noting practice where I'm just noting, ever arises, and maybe I feel my breath one moment or I notice I'm thinking or I noticed the sound of the cat purring or the half of the cat on my quadriceps or the oars. Cat moving, etc, etc. Obviously, all this advice pertains to dogs yeah, so I would try that there being crazy, like I have one cat Toby, whose just a pain doesn't has already, and I tried it sure, my hair, or something like that, but then home he's gotta go. I'll, lock him in another room, and you know hopefully doesn't cry too much. You can also, if their crying, if, if you their misbehaving so badly in the room that you do need the lock
in another room and their crying. I would download some white noise to your phone and play that next to the door and we'll probably drown it out. Alright, hopefully, that's enough practical advice for dealing with the the varmints in your house. I love the voicemails. Keep me coming. I promise I promise I promise. I know I've been saying this for months, but we're going to get actual meditations features on here soon. To answer the question so you're not stuck with me up before I go. If you want to thank everybody, who's involved in the show Ryan Kesler, the producer, Samuel John's, who works for ten percent, happier come on to help us up our game and lots of ways. He thinks the same goal as well, and thanks everybody at ABC News. Radio who makes this show possible Steve Jones, who runs his disjointed. and thanks to you for listening to finish, my weekly plea, which is please it s a review rate us about a social media. All that stuff helps us.
vikings and really helps ensure that we can continue doing work, which myself I love to do. Thank you for listening. The next Monday. There's not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona. I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who were soon
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