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#180: Dolly Chugh, How Good People Fight Bias

We all have biases, and only by acknowledging them can we make a conscious decision to not act on them. That's one of the teachings of our guest this week, award-winning psychologist Dolly Chugh, who studies the psychology of human bias. She's also the author of the book, "The Person You Mean To Be: How Good People Fight Bias." Chugh also discusses the role meditation can play in helping to combat acting on our biases. The Plug Zone Website: http://www.dollychugh.com/ Book: http://www.dollychugh.com/book
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC. Ten percent happier vodka but it had some fundamental level. This show and all of the work I do is about a really radical and empowering idea, which is that the mind is tradable to if I'm evangelist. My good news My gospel, which I think translates into good news, is that the mental states We want all skills, they're, not factory settings that can be taken. With, and so those include peace of mind activity happiness sense, a connection com focus gratitude. Generosity and I think it is and all the way to working with our biases, including Rachel biases gender biases,
tribal and partisan biases. I would say those isms tribalism, sexism, racism are three. The most pernicious forces in in our public life globally and Dolly Chug, who is faster and why you is this week to talk about how we can develop the skills to do, oh they're biases and healthier ways and- Yes, your question might be made a lot of questions at this point. But what are you going? Maybe if you are anything like me and maybe on the sort of selfish end of the spectrum, why would I want to do that of well there's the big idealistic answer, which is: if you're less caught up in in the by a species that have been injected into you by the culture by your parents whatever within Europe. Maybe you're gonna be help make the world a better place, because you acting them out so blindly and and maybe
helping us contribute to having a moron the ball society, but here's and we're selfish answer, which is that increasingly the number show we are worth in teams, increasingly that there are data to get it to demonstrate that the teams that function the best are diverse teams to another issue. I have success. You you'd- be able to work We have lots of different kinds of people and if you whereby seas are getting in the way of you working effectively with people who are different from you or Irish people into your company then and you're being potentially materially hindered in your efforts towards success, doll is a tenured professor and award winning tenure professor at the New York University Stern school business says she studies implicit bias and said they. She caused bounded efficacity, which is unintentional on ethics,
behavior and she's teaching the stuff in an mba context, as she knows how to make this content palatable at attractive. Folks oaks learning how to go into business, and I think her framing is incredibly. it is. My opinion the way she goes about. This work is being readily useful way, name, two of her precepts that I find soup, a refreshing and healthy one. Is that shame there is in She talked a lot about the disutility of shame in this context. Shaming people and making them feel terrible, forever busies they have, which are probably not ones. They invited especially implicit bias, is a key herbal strategy for getting people to behave in a more think fashion and she's very brave, interesting, about her own unconscious bias were cut or biased. That's that's
was lurking in her unconscious that she had been able to bring, the sunlight. She you'll hear her talk about this, the other car. she has that I find deeply useful. Is it the all like to think of ourselves: ass, good people, it's kind of a false. An area where you're either good people or bad people, as I actually the way it works were all complex, and so, if we can refrain and think of ourselves as good english people. That puts, in a mindset, were willing to learn and grow and do better and that I find, as I said before, as somebody who's trying to get better at this stuff, for both idealistic reasons I'm crass reasons as a business man and an journalist. I find that really helpful, so yeah. Maybe I should stop talking about Dolly's work in and let her Quit here's Delhi chug. Normally, I ask people how they got into meditation, but like you're you're, not deep in their yet so we're gonna word shove that through the back door,
the biogas, ask: instead, how did you become so interested in the issue of bias? my gosh. I think it's all researchers me search some people like to say in some of this is just about me trying to grapple as a human being and a complicated world where I professor and I sometimes mix up to black students for each other, you'd look, nothing alike. Or I find myself. My kids come home and say something about this. Great surgeon who came as a guest speaker at school now say what did he say I now so stuff is happening. All the time drew me to me, through me and so a lot of my researches about trying to understand how
a conservative, understand and deal with and get better around these issues. Were you ever have you ever? Are you still ever them down the wrong end of bias? In other words, are you the victim of it? Sure, I think so. Am I mad you're here snares can't see it, but I'm a brown skinned woman and some others. You know a number of ways in which that shows in my daily encounters in the world, has been whereas a turban and has a beard and so of airports are always fun for us. Are you seek he is- and I am I was raised Hindu, but sort of just a medley in our house of both and so absolutely, I think, there's my children of immigrants I was born in India was six months old when my parents came here so in I think of had the opportunity to sort of feel it and see it. it being buys from every angle. The ways in which I hold the biased is the ways in which I receive other people's policies and certainly,
think women are navigating a minefield of boosting gender biases. right now, especially right now? so I was honest with you: We shall rolling about one of the reasons why I want to talk to you, which is that I'm writing a book about how to be a better person. Then- and I think one of the this is not a controversial. I don't think content assertion or in what it is. Definitely not as it is. It is definitely not an original observation by one of the big problems when it was to human behavior. Right now is bias, and I think this shows up in sexism racism, but also tribalism, answer I'm interested. I am interested to know what have you looked at her. I know you look at recent saxon racism and sexism, but have you also look at political bias? I dont want
send it directly in a race and gender. Why do run studies that look at those issues and particularly interested in the way the mind works and how that shows up in any number of diocese was so that could flow into everything from race and gender and tribalism to sexual orientation or disabilities, or any other sort of place where we have some association that somehow we ve internalize, you know I say peanut butter, you say Jelly. Do Might that mind automatically went smoothly? May really I love ass. Our advice, aid
uncle twinkle. You say, sir, there you go so somehow twinkle Twinkle Little STAR became a thing that you associated together in your mind and there's all these other associations. We ve internalized in our minds where we associate certain groups of people with certain attributes, and we may not remember when that became part of how we thought or that we even thought of it as a thought. It was just part of the flow of our unconscious mind and what I am interested in is how that flow of our unconscious mind, which is majority of our minds, work how it sir, times leads us away from being the person we mean to be or the people we mean to be. That's as my mission is that gap. So I'm thinking of- and I don't know how I feel about this individual, but he's a colleague of yours, Jonathan higher the second I've never had him on the show that I want to add something. He's a psychologist
social psychology headed down the hall for me again, so he uses this metaphor. I don't even know if it's his, maybe just a common metaphor of the mind It is like an elephant with a rider bound up with it we are the rider or their client is part of our brain writer, but the elephants, much bigger. He has much more power and but we're air of elephant. Much of much of the time I do agree with, an analogy yeah I, like kind of when you were talking about it, and I do believe it is- has its from one of his earlier books, not his current work yeah. I think he He helps us his his metaphors are always very on point. Instead of painting a picture of, what's going on the top visible and so the idea that so much of the mines. Work is happening on auto pilot or something else a sort of working hours. As the elephant is working, the writer you know there's one there. One study that shows that in any given
Oh man, I want to snap, but I think that might make the microphone go. Crazy. Cocaine snap in that moment that there's eleven million thoughts happening in our mind now, but also All of them are happening outside of our awareness, forty of them are happening consciously, so I'm from Thinking consciously about what I'm saying but then a whole bunch of things that I'm your processing the colors in this room that I'm knowing how to said. I'm not thinking consciously about those things. Those are in the eleven million outside of awareness. So if Much of the mines work is happening just as it should. The brain is built to do incredibly complex things in a busy dynamic world. That's we want our mind to be able to handle is eleven million things per moment by it also means- or some of that stuff going on that. If we sort of way to look at, it would be like what a fool
well mind. Where did that? Come from? That's not quite how I thought we were going about navigating the world. I will in turn of our into our yes exactly go for arguing, recently I had a horrifying moment where I took my son to see frozen yeah, which would give the play with. I work for Disney so was the best and in there I don't know if this is the way to cast it every night in the night I was there the the two girls who are the stars. Yet their parents come on at the beginning of their parents were black okay and it took me a minute to realise. Oh, those are the parents, though it that's the king, Queen Anne, oh, that there were the actor. Yes, the parents lack the stars, the girls or why Oh I see wherever when I see that there is a raven shirts, wonderful, I can't forgetting the name of elder sister, but I bought my
brother, my brother, my son, one of the dolls on the way out there The parrot lack- and I remember- and I was like out- they must be some on or know what they are, but they're, not the king and Queen Garee and then also owe their the king Queen Rang, but that was I buy, as you know, working against me land, so yeah that was sometimes when you win. If I'm looking honestly at my vices, its horrified absolutely- and you know my boy, book is peppered with mortifying anecdote after mortifying anecdote of my own biases showing up and so I see, is somewhat the work that I am trying to do is at about making people's biases go away because we don't actually know how to do that. But it's about. Helping us notice are biases when they do show up so that we can deal with it and we have all these motivated reasons do not want to notice them. So what the things that I think you do, that's really deeply helpful. This era of
now this is me saying this: not you and you may or may not agree. I think I think, there's a kind of political correctness, Thursday hold that can be useful, because it's just people who, having had power for a long time being able to speak, but on some levels is actually really counterproductive because it induces shame rain and I dont think you ever gonna get anybody to change by telling them that their awful and You do that. I find it really useful. As you talk about these mortifying things, happening, your own, my eye, in a way that tells me: ok, I don't have to be so ashamed. I had this. So, not so Great association. When I saw men, women, walk on stages, king and queen and frozen and and and its in them, sent my fault. The culture injects say these bias. these into us and to see them clearly is to then be able to not
owned exactly the noticing. That's the work, the noticing I mean that fees of my book is that we have put our self in this. Take corner with no window in that, a corner with no window is our good person identity, most I care about being seen as and feeling like. A good person according to research on was called moral identity and even though, like we may not all fine good person the same, but whatever your definition is most of us don't lie. to be shamed into not being seen as a good person or being sort of labelled that way, but the problem? The definition a lot of us are using for good person, and this is why such a tight corner is fine areas. A good person or you're not erased. MR you're, not you're a sexist or not, there is no room for growth. There is no room for mistakes. What I'm trying
offers a different way of thinking about our identities, which is being a goodish person. A goodish person is a work in progress, and it's it's it. I want to be really clear. Could sometimes you will think I'm saying were letting ourselves off the hook, but actually think I'm changes to a higher standard than good person, because this person means when things happen, when we make them stake the frozen incident instead of just exe. Training in a way I got, I have to How does it cause that's? What I do is a good person. I notice these things I learned from them. My brain activity actually goes up cause, I'm in what Gerald Whatcha psychologist at Stanford calls a growth mindset and when I'm in a growth, mindset. I view myself as malleable. I view my skills as malleable and that moment when an error makes itself known my brain activity has actually o pay attention. Pay attention the era when I'm in the US that a fixed mindset where dont view myself a work in progress and a good person or not binary than my brain-
committee actually goes down when I noticed that error there's nothing to be learned here. I just need to disregard or explain away what has happened. I love this oh much, I think it's so constructive, and I will in this era of at times excessive political correctness and twitter, mobs and virtue signalling and all the sort of the bad parts of having people who have for too long been held down. Being empowered right, I think that there is so much good in in the fact that we have a much more assertive multi cultural culture yeah, but in the end the bad way this sort of mob mentality. Could we ever Korea the world which I think you're kind of describing. Where see. Naming admitting these I otherwise embarrassing, implicit, biases
could be the moment where we give ourselves a pat on the back, because you side and therefore your odds of acting on it have just gone down. I think that's right on our offer another layer on how to think about the which you're describing as the political correctness, phenomena another way to think it is through the the framework of heat versus light, and so in trying to make any sort of change, one approaches to educate others and meet them where they are and and think about their comfort, and that would a sort of where I tend to usually follows. I try to use myself as an sample. I treated the teacher he comes out, but there's people who use forms of heat, which don't worry about the comfort of others that come down really hard on others and I used to be who I started writing this book. Frankly, a little judges of the heat folks and I was sort of pitching my book to publishers, as I was gonna, be the light based person on
and I started learning more about research around social movements and history of social movements. And what I learned is that the move us and our most successful are the ones that have heat and light, and that MRS rely exclusively on sort of more radical or more moderate, either of those have not move forward as much in terms of actual change, that's when I realized that I think I was sabotaging what I cared about by being dismissive of the heat and and and harshly. I don't I've been on the receiving end of it and I sometimes am, as professor I deal with lots of people, young people of underground in people in their twenties and who are very much at the forefront of her. I think what you're describing don't always like receiving the heat, and that said I you have trained myself to be more appreciative of the fact that there are people with
to bring the heat, I'm not one of those people, but I'm grateful there are people like that, but I want to be clear. I am not saying heat is never necessary. I'm just saying excessive. Unnecessary use of it is totally counterproductive, yeah and I think the key and what your argument is the shame piece of it and how it shuts down learning, and so what I trying to encourage people do is even if that excessive political correctness targets you you're the target of it. If you can bring even in a goodish mindset. Your more likely to fight that morsel in what they're saying that useful in the good person my sat there is just no way. You're gonna hear it like No. I dont want I'm right on my, but most people aren't if, if we're talking about affecting, I shall change, which is what the heat brings are trying to do, and I feel it they are undermining themselves because there forcing people people whose minds they want to change, not to listen to them, so yeah. That's where, because
often a you know, I'm a journalist on us both says, but often I agree with you know I mean I want us to death. I want people to be treated fairly, raise say right right, I want there were in the richest country in the history of the planet. I don't think we should have such educational disparities between white people and people of color. I think I feel confident as a journalist saying that what do I think that shame is gonna. Bring that that change about. I don't, I think, actually conversation and light is going to bring it about. Does that mean you should never use heat? No! I think that you should be careful and cynical in Ireland and don't use it in a way off, and I think we evolve into virtue signal in which people are using it to make that to raise their statue among their among their peers, as opposed to actually
I do some extra actually, as though I think your look your last point as a really interesting wine. I think it's interesting in the work you have done on meditation. I think there's sort of a similar kind of signalling that's going on there, where it's not about the actual practice, its more about the signals to the world. But your first point however, one more layer on it, which is Sometimes with the impact of heat is, is not The attitude change, but is on the north. Changing your arms and there is research that by a Princeton colleges, Betsy Pollack, show that summit, the changing of the norms, will at which is essentially the changing of behaviour. Even if it doesn't, she. he's the attitude? That's, ok, it actually It says the sum of the IMF, actually want. So you can't always is assume you ll be able to effect the way people think but people
You know if nobody, letters on the beach nobody letters on the beach as soon as one person, letters on the beach everyone starts littering on the beach norms, really shape behaviour, and so just shaping the norms which heat dusk do potentially are shaping behaviour without even changing attitudes are really the right. That strikes me as a really good point, but it, but nonetheless I remain somewhat wary of yeah. I hear only by think. We broadly agree on I think we do. I think we do. I think I've just come a pretty long way in the last three years of being having a less of a reflex against. I think my reflects it again. It was pretty strong three years ago, but I just think about it. My own life, you know when war, when I'm put you know, a corner and made to feel like a defective human. That isn't fertile ground for change for growth and chain. I was having a and a conflict with somebody recently and an he was trying to get me to change.
He was he was asking me for help in something but also reach Lee criticising Me- and I said you're asking me for help- while punching me in the mouth, and I feel like that's, not the right conditions for me too. I don't feel like helping you run now of my mouth is bleeding, so I don't there's something in their landfill. I'm with you yeah. So. So I used are used. the other day. I used this test, the king Kleaver admitting ever gonna use sugar to bribe my kids to do something the other guy you re so so I am and I knew that was not the right way to get them to do it, and yet I also knew it would work and so on. some ways, I think what you are saying is listen folks. If you want people to listen to you hand them a cookie, you know validate them a little before you crush them. With your criticism. And the research would support you on that that, if you really do want, engage people's ideas in mines and if you do need to valid
there. Definitely you need to give them a little sugar, not completely attack them four went down this road. When I was really trying to say anything was a fruitful digression. Is that I just love that you're willing in your book to talk about these embarrassing internal moments, I will, I think it would be great as a culture if we were tests- to say the forbidden, you can, I mean Some ways you can get away with it right, till study? It well also you're a woman of Co. Oh good pray yeah, but I'm a white male yeah. So it's much more difficult, I'm willing to do it, but I will take you for it, and I we await away. That's different. I suspect I will take you in a way that different than you will that such an EU actually just given me an idea, we should we should, as we researchers. We should run a study on that. That's a testable thing and I dont know if anyone has tested it. I I see where your intuition is coming from what you say. At the very least, I feel less comfortable
Yeah- and I were, I think, you'll be healthy as a society I'm test. Thinking aloud. So I'm sure I'm getting myself and trouble lots of ways here, because this is in an air, it would have done enough deep thinking, but I this situation that if we could all just admit this stuff yet and it wasn't verboten and a win win, knew what you weren't gonna, be under a mountain of shame. Everytime, you admit it, but in fact the point was to admit it so that you could not act on it, yeah. That would be a healthier world absolutely, and I think what I call that, what Europe, what your wishing for it, I'm hoping your wishing into the universe is making your learning visible, and I think I think we're people get them lots of hot water is when they try to defend a particular mistake. Opposed to saying, I think I made him stake, or I'm struggling with this and I'm trying to understand and learn from it and so making your learning visible is something that I have actually been talking to. A lot of
companies and organisations and executive. Since my book came out and would thus if there is one thing you can recommend to us- you know what would it be? Should we change this way of hiring or this is this an end, I always say the one. If you could do only one thing, I would have your senior executives start talking openly Their learning in this area, until the senior executives are willing to acknowledge their own unconscious biases and start working on those issues themselves, no amount of diversity, training or unconscious bias. Training is gonna, have any impact on any one else. So you think, sir, we're dealing with us a ten percent happier, which is a start of company that teaches people how to meditate or an app and again we have you know like were right now, if Ikey, seventeen or eighteen for employees in love with just started, we Have a committee on diversity inclusion and bring in a firm to help us do better at this end, we ve heard a lot and early advice. There were, as were going about this learning process, its very boring
have, by and from the highest level of accompanying camera people to speak comfortably about this. Do you think it you? it would be important for somebody like me to get up in front of the company and say how I was. I met this point, the other day and, to be honest, it for my first impression was based on, The fact that he or she was in a wheelchair or whatever the color religion in I am still live like rapid conclusions that were wrong. You think saying something like that, which is a fraud thing to say, yeah is actually a healthy move. I think it's a healthy move and I think that what important is that you frame it in Here is what I'm learning about myself. I think that making your learning visible. What you don't do is create panic that everyone's gonna think, oh god dance you know. What's he judging about me right now, you know I was under this illusion that he was seeing me objectively and now I have to worry about all these stereotypes he's bringing, but that's, not what you're saying what you're saying is, while I caught myself- and I think pending on where I would make sure that when you're, if
gonna start doing that. Work you have done to educate yourself about how the human mind works. That you're, employee have had the same opportunity so their hearing this in the context of while their stuff like that, Here's. What dear knows, and what I now know is but there's a lot of work in the human mind that takes place outside of my awareness. Some of that It's happening outside my weariness is not consistent HU. I mean to be the case has to notice it and then one she noticed that figure out what to do about it, and so you are simply saying that I'm doing the same work, I'm asking everyone else to do, but it's gonna take courage for me. Yes to the Middle EAST, well here is what here's, what might help build the courage what the research says really clearly is that when people who are the target of a particular by so let's say if a black person speaks when someone says, tells a racist joke verses. If a
eight person speaks up in that same moment. The white pearl, it has more impact than the black person and the black person will be viewed as wine year than the white person in that particular scenario. Similarly, there's other research has been done. That shows that, managers, who advocate for diversity or white manager through hires, a person of color takes no real, to their reputation or performance evaluation, but a blue a person or a woman who does the same thing does take ahead crime, so there's theirs. Everything's context rate. If you're saying you're making your love, invisible and then at the same time, doing some really Regis things, no one's gonna. Take you seriously. You're gonna be viewed as a hypocrite, but if you making learning visible in its in the context of them. Seeing you as somebody you'd care deeply about these issues. I think you'll actually create a ripple effect of learning.
We're on another digression, bits were here and says: I'm thinking a lot about sort of the internal culture, a ten percent happier, because it matter so much to me in the people matter. So much demand, I want everybody to be happy and productive. I one of the big concerns. I've had as we go through this process of diversity, inclusion, diversity and inclusion work is, is that we lapse into this kind of precious aren't you signal laying in phenomena insincere again way of conducting ourselves as opposed to, but by contrast What am I homes here at night? primary home here it maybe she knew she's Nightline right and we have an incredibly diverse staff, mostly female lot, of different, extractions- and it is very comfortable and very jockey- people are constantly kind of like touch
a third rail and stuff like that in an atmosphere that are very comfortable. Whereas I feel like sometimes when I'm at ten percent happier as were working with this stuff, that it can lapse, to kind of like very cool careful language, Any irony are you, so if you have any thoughts on how ensure we can bring a sort of spirit of levity, I guess I'll just say one last thing: I had a conversation once with a prior guest on pike, ass, the woman, a wonderful woman Seven Selassie was a meditation teacher and she's of ethiopian extraction, and we were talking about this very issue in and comfort, and being able to set you know, TAT, writings out and saving so you're, not just sitting there, are set to scare the you don't say anything and she said something like will. You can talk to me the how're we want, because you know you dando I'll. Never kick you out of my heart,
ok well, that creates an atmosphere where I can grant. But if I'm scared, yeah or annoyed here, then I don't feel like it and grow. So I ass a long question. Yet nobody can it which are saying is like if, if, if yeah? How do you marry the humor? What I mean, the humour in the joke culture ever if any, expense it at my expense, Alot desperate times. That's exactly was about to say of a ten percent happier, I think as long as you The butt of sixty percent of the jokes- I think that's great. I love that the I view it as a sign of intelligence authority, mixed economy invaluable. Yes, so yeah so they're ruthless. At night light I mean, like I am day they kill me if kill me. I love it. So Zoo is in that's the guy as long as the humour that isn't being brought in, is about targeting people
less power, you, you know making fun of your staff. Of course you can make fun of your staff as long as there's that trust am not suggesting that that's about think, but I, I think, you can create, as was long as you, you create permission for it. I say I think, also possible. That is just a different vibe. The people just don't, engage in that kind, humor in the same way, it's true it's a different industry, a one of the points our C o at Emerson happier is made is like look. Nightline may be very comfortable because it so diverse that people who are from diverse backgrounds- so comfortable hen make jokes but were attacked company and it is largely dominated by white males and, as we start to bring in more women of color, is just relax yet right in north. Nor could it or should be. Yes, I think that's actually an excellent point. I I just I just want to make that we create a workplace that is not so precious that is not fond of work in the air. yeah. I know exactly what
Think also creating trust, so first victim, you making fun of yourself and like validating- and we will make fun of you- creates a certain trust at that level in your c o doing that as well is important but then also them trusting each other. So to what center they having the chance to do all the things that build trust? We know whether it's you know some social activities outside of worker, you know within work are there? Are there are opportunities where their interdependent on each other as opposed to working independently? These are the things we know that the drive up trust stay tuned. Moreover, conversation is on the way after this better help offer licensed professional councillors specialised in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief, connect with their profession,
counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love I have taken as far away from your central thesis, because I don't want to overlook, which is the what you said before about but if the go back to that, because I guess so powerful who, how do we transition from Mindset of this binary mindset of either person or a bad person, and I'm definitely a good person to good issue. How does one make tat move so it's easier than we think act. It's you know in the in the language of psychology, your activating a growth mindset, your activating a belief that, with effort you can improve- and so
one great metaphor that I'm stealing from Corey, hey Jim, who as a curator at TED, dot com- and she helped me craft this metaphor of think of it as technology us assume that in two thousand nineteen we're get away without having to update our knowledge of our phones and laptops and urge that gadgets from two thousand eighteen fifteen and two, and we all know that every year we have to figure things out, and how do I download is not my back up those in which it might get our kids to shows how to use our phones, that's just given, and so what have we that same metaphor to how we think about issues around him the city or inclusion and bias that that's a con certainly changing world that working to update our knowledge in all the time and that's the how the world is, it's not a reflection of us being slaughtered in some way, where activating a mindset. A growth mindset of this is something I'm just gonna keep doing the researchers on mindset that it's actually a sort of
the ball to activate that mindset. They simply tell people. This is something It can be learned drawing math golf whatever, this is something can be were learned and tree. It is something that is malleable and then people can adopt that belief and move forward with it Have you tell somebody? move out of I'm a good person come hell or high water, into a good person who is complicated and fly but has the intention of improving their. For time. Actually you can but unless racist unless access. Well, I'm gonna be really precise. They are so so, let's break that down. So what I'm tell people is. I'd navigating issues of diversity and inclusion, building more inclusive communities are workplaces. Are These are skills that can be learned, they're, not something you have to be borne, knowing how to do so. That's the first That's a learning thing, so
the person mindset says. I should just know how to do this. I should know how to be a manner someone different than me, or I should know how to pronounce names that you are. Failure to me- and since I do not, now that I'm just gonna avoid saying it or I'm gonna shorten it. No, these things that can be learned and so that the first step is these are low Annabelle skills and in the book I virtue. It is, instead of just being a believer in diversity and inclusion, you're being a builder, and so your, but you ve got skill you have to build, and then the second, piece of it is when you said it'll make me less of a racist were sexes, I wanted careful there s eye, use that language very often it's it's not obvious that all actually reduce your unconscious biases. That week, we d by thing is not something a scientists. We figured out how to do tat, but
we'll make you notice them more. It will make you more willing that when somebody calls you out on something that you go, oh my god thank you for it telling me that that was something I totally miss the blind spot. On my part, and then you can figure out what to do really depends on high define racist or sex. Is that whatever is because if you define it as what your conscious, mind is vomiting. Then then we were all hopeless, but if define and more as your action yeah bake in the face of this yes, incessant torrent, nonsense that, in our are and culturally injected perennially injected, biased is an evolution airily injected biases there. There are part of the elephant, then you then than than they. Actually you can become yes razor by that of definition. I'll go for that. You become a better rider and have the elephant. Another word exactly. I am
after reading your book, which I loved I lest I should have called my boat ten percent Walker you out of it a good site. Yes, you can the four year period that I like after title you guys are just as always you put me you can answer one little hello I think I can swing but but aren't buys seas but you didn't, we evolved, have biases fur for a reason like I don't. I need to know the difference between a snake s ass, a snake in Aceh,. yeah. You know. Right short, cuts are good, our brain, a hundred saint needs short cuts to navigate the world. Theirs, there's no way we can process eleven million things every moment and a conscious way in its short cuts that allow us to do it. It's just sometimes so short cuts set us up fur from mistakes, so that the architecture It is great. We just have to pay a little bit of attention to what's in the house,
and over time, just did dig in that's a lot of it before you in terms of the building. This skill, but from going from being a believer to a builder. Can you just dig deep more deeply, what are the practical steps we can take as we wanna get better and better at this? Absolutely So, first of all, we wanted just started noticing the ways in which we are in our own daily lives, perhaps eating our brains with associations that we weren't even paying much attention to. So, for example, look at the last five movies. You saw books, she read podcast, you listen to whatever. Whatever of media you consume regularly and about whose voices were represented. Wet images we're being reinforced. Who was the creator of those particular media just by doing it of your media areas, social media, you can get a sense of where you might be sort of feed
in your brain stuff that you didn't mean to feed it a cloud is a senior executives. Google ventures and I feature him in the book because he is aware male, who spoke really candidly about the surprise, he had when he went to this unconscious bias, training. Pretty sure, We then needed that he was, you know you sort of actually says. I really thought I was one of the good guys I hired women and promoted women etc, and I go to training and they have me do this unconscious gender, biased test and they stand to see. My results are not what I expected I'm sorry he was skeptical benefit said. Let me go through all my linked in contacts in my twitter and in his world. His social media actually plays a really important professional has is of real influence. Her in that way, and he realized only twenty percent of the people he was connecting to were women across platforms any withstand.
And he actively then said wow. I meant I'm going to change that I'm going to start looking for who am I overlooking? Where am I blind spots and he says he's not quite up to fifty slash fifty but he's closed and I interviewed him before the me to move. I became a national conversation unease that then he said you know one only twice percent of the voices you're listening to? Are women you every now and then hear some story about sexual harassment and it sort of feels like a one off his when I was up closer to fit. Percent? I started realizing. I was hearing these stories all the time from people. I trusted and I started realizing- I'm really missing something that's happening right under my nose. Ugly and so That was a great example of to answer your question a concrete thing? We can do is just look at the voices and content were consuming into an audit
second thing we can do is start paying attention to when things do happen, when we noticed something happening in the world around us. Is this a moment where we can constructively engage with the person telling the joke or candidate who the candidate being considered or not. Inconsiderate and hiring process. Can we engage more on that issue with a committee and in the book I offer some concrete ways to do that, especially for people like me who are not very confrontational, and you know don't particularly like to get him fights with people. What are ways in which we can have those conversations will tell me more about that occur. How do you if somebody says something I mean you, I could see others go wrong. That's ranging become, like you know, ostentatiously woke up recognised only policing everybody's, what everybody seventy very wrong How do you do this correctly yeah? Well, first of all you don't you every incident,
of us can hit every incident. So the idea of that you're, going around sort of vigilante style is not the goal. I Something in the book called twenty. Sixty twenty rule, which I borrowed from it, used to be a consultant in past life and fell, the consultants, Susan enunciated, taught me this twenty six two in any group of people when a change comes through the night, please don't really matter, but let's go with twenty in sixteen twenty there's one group of people that's like yeah, I'm so end like just get out of my way. I'm in like him in for the change is another, group of people whose not come in with there never coming with you and they don't like it and their vocal about not liking it and she would call them comfortably miserable on that particular issue and then there's this big middle group. Let's call it sixty percent That's the movable met all by not super engaged on whatever's have whether it's a new accounting system or a new way of how do you.
Refer to people of color like new language there, just paying a lot of attention. It's not top of mine for them, and wood the twenty six to twenty rule says. Is that if it's the first twenty, those p we want to learn, want to grow, just find the right moment to talk to them if it's the other twenty you're, not gonna, get very, whereby get very far, but they are going to suck the energy out of you. They are going to try to pull their liked. The trolls, the internet, holes, but sometimes in real life there uncle so and so it thanksgiving some in some of our dinner tables and there you need to be really careful. What you need to do. There is not focus on changing their minds, but of focusing on signalling that this from a norm, standpoint is not ok and that middle sixty as a group we continually forget, we don't give them any of our attention and that's the group we actually could have real impact. They get sway. I either that first sixty I'm sorry the first twenty or that other twenty, and
so the twenty six twenty rule says make a quick snap judgments is not perfect. It real using one of our mental shortcuts figure out. We are dealing with twenty six year. Twenty, if you're dealing with the first twenty, I go for it. Just put meant activate you're learning mindset and allow them to do the same you doing with the bottom twin we focus on signalling that this is not cool from form standpoint but don't get along track argument. you know when the middle, sixty people who are not deeply entrenched on issue are more persuaded by humanizing stories and by data. So pull up a good story about yourself for someone else argument he's out of my own life came. The first word of one of chapters in the original edition of ten percent happier was a quote. it wasn't my word a kind of quote: from a men, member of the military referred to meditation as retarded I think that was in the addition. I guess so that's it
information is a new edition. Coming out were where that will not be the case, explain to me by? I don't want to name any names, just cuz, I don't have permission, but it was explained by somebody close to me who has a child with special needs, that. One word ruin the book for him. and so on. The next edition of the book it's out at it, and I just found that personal story to be so incredibly powerful, well and so well, I guess I was probably in the sixty there. Yet a particular issue handled it so skilfully didn't make me feel ashamed. When you didn't lecture me or wagon anger at me, tell me I'm a horrible person is like he said. Look. We grew up in an era where that word was ok, but I'm telling you it's it's really not okay and four for people who we have our parents with kids with special needs, or maybe over other sister with, especially whatever grant its its devastating. That's a great example of this. Strategy middle sixty strategy, so it
so with your around here. But then I guess the question is: are you around the office and somebody says makes a joke. That's like kind of border lie. I am it's you gotta make. A call is quickly person in the twenty, the good ones you are the sixty and is now the right place to do it, and I take them aside acting on play its complex and that's why the twenty six twenty rule helps. Does it get you? You can work here I threw like sort of the funnel of decisions and quickly get to a plan. Maybe it may involve doing something in the moment or it may involve something were privately outside of that moment and eat The things that I I try to use as much as I can as a sense of humour in those moments where you know we, like you, know like they tell the the joke you like, My god, you look so young Debbie's, all vows, and where did they go review of that kind of know? Steven going to hit it head on you're just going to name it. That's that's what I mean by busting a norm: you're not going to just let it sit and become like okay,
you're gonna, you're gonna, be like I I'll just solid happen there so casually Those are two skills. The first girl was doing an audit of your media average media. The second was training yourself more time call it out. Dishes Lee when somebody says that yeah across the line are there other skills in terms of non believers? Builder, absolutely so everything we can do are to begin to actually take action so whether that means like, for example, even you are describing your new company thinking about actual practice. Is that your engaging in terms of how you hire people, how you evaluate people in all my book doesn't get into a ton of depth, on the actual practices. There's a lot of great work out there, for example, there's a but call what works. That's really useful. That gives you specific things like, for example, interviews, and I am so guilty of this. I've
I spent a good chunk of my career interviewing people in that kind of battery wakes. I just love funny banter and I think it's fun to meet someone new and just find the common ground a funny banter on and Penn interview doing that. For thirty minutes you sort of talk about something related to the job. That kind of interview which a lot of industries rely a lot on actually sets yourself up for where culture is being the thing assess like. Can I banter with you and usually weaken the one study showed that the two things that really kind of supported a kind of interview where, if you went to the same school or if you who had shared a kind of you. A hobby only was a unique hobby, but like marathon running or craft beer brew You can write thing you can see how that word. Work against anybody is not coming from sort of the prototypical background and so on.
or a better way of interviewing is something that's more structured, that's more behavioral, meaning the questions are asking tell me, jury about a time when you biblical blood did something related to the job, as opposed to do this banter anything which is really favouring people who feel really comfortable with whatever back and I am most comfortable and so a skilled comes to mind as a possible way too to be better at diversity fusion, that you haven't listed. Ok, but I want to see whether you think it would be a good skill- would be meditation. Oh gosh Yes, he Here's how I think it would work, but I'm not a scientist. You tell me if there is any evidence, tat men invitations all about dragging what's in the elephant which in the unconscious yeah up to this, so the dry, either alone, right yeah, so that Europe's seeing your yes, my dear it yourself wariness, it's an inner telescope, Is their evidence to suggest that this process can surface these
policies in a way that allows us to surf rather than drowned in the gas, and I am a kid let him think of it till you just said: there is one study out there that there may be more than one, but there is definitely one steady out there. This actually looked at unconscious bias in meditation. Some reason it didn't Come forward in my memory until now, in a double they showed some optimistic result in that study. So that's how wake something promising that I'm actually gonna go back and refresh my memory on. adaptation, as I understand it, someone who doesn't practice it but definitely think site will end up practicing it in my life, because so many people I respecting care about it's a central part of their lives. It really feels like something that's coming for me. it. Has that the non judgmental if it please correct, me. If I mistake, Miss misinterpret how meditation works, but peace, where you can sit with something with
Judging it is really powerful part of this noticing. Work that we are talking about is what were eaten. That's why I'm so attracted to what you said before about how you you talk about all these embarrassing or things that happened, because that's what meditation is yeah. It's been said that if you sit long enough and looked your mind you're, going to see a rapist in a murder yeah, that's that Nature of the mafia and shame is another fallen, yeah yeah, Clear non judgmental awareness, yeah of sea this is a mind state or a thought, then he's impermanent drain. That is not mine. That I can I can lay nor lame to re is what allows you not to act on that says we're that's what we're doing in meditation. That's interesting in your book. You use tat like the seven second delay from live television as as away excited. I thought I was really how fallen in some ways I mean, but
don't know, is how much of that unconscious mind. We really can put me from absurd brain science standpoint. Can we actually bring it all to the surface, and I don't know if that's been studied or not. I don't look. I'm in depends if you believe a total on foreign Leyden Manderson. They arise or a limit to say as a ten percent guy. I think it's more about seeing more and more and more and more incremental. Yes, so that, like or time you're you're, seeing oh, how look at my mind again and then you are more sensitive to it, an theoretically less likely to just sort of activists out absolutely and in it you know, you're, something interesting that that I've noticed you start doing that with yourself. Like bees, The less judgment all and being able let's call judgmental as the good person version and non judgmental is the goodish person still a higher standard, though to be clear, as you start, mean that you get better at it,
the more willing. I am to notice all my foe pause, the more willing I am to notice all my foe pause like I've really gotten better at it, and then the extra benefit of that is the more willing you are to talk about your foe pause with others. That's the making your luring visible the more willing they are to do it with you and not. I don't mean in the signal virtue signalling way I mean in the war I'm glad. I can sort of share this with somebody. Either something happened other day. I was proud of it and I am glad that there's a way I can work my way through this. That isn't the shame path and so that that then Compare compounding that's happening just like with interest and ten percent is is I think, both internally and externally, with other people still building it still building evidence to suggest that this actually works, as is part of what you ve researched, of which parts without large
that is the more you were, the more willing you become a year, Enerve yeah foibles, As I haven't run, studies on that, in particular that's been, my personal experience is that in future it is a lot of its come through. The work on this book were as as act. It makes a lot of our conversations happen within scientific circles, but with this book I've been talking to the real world lot more, hundreds and hundreds of conversations- and that's I've really started to notice this happening. One thing that does happen is, if you become known as the person in your search, your workplace for your social circles. As someone thinking about this trying to grow in this area than you do? start getting a lot of texts from friends were every time they noticed something of their own mind. They sort of. See for themselves and then shoot it to you. So you do become the receiver of a lot of those. I think there's also something about how to carry that without getting down in it. But I think that sir,
the small issue to be resolved. This seems like a fertile area too dark study could be out if this attitude that your recommending, the goodish person, can we can we say with confidence that actually will improve behaviour will live. Also, sorry, Sir, I think I was being overly person Hey without you asking me, we can say absolutely with confidence, has been deeply studied that a growth mindset, in other words the goodish mindset, absolutely improves skill building and behaviour in that's been studied by Carol Dweck and her colleagues in a whole wide range of domain, including buys not necessarily buys we're trying to run some studies on that right now, but I feel very confident, and I wrote this book with the confidence that there is every reason to believe that, because So much research has been done on fixed mindset versus growth mindset and so many domains. There is every reason to believe it would apply here as well, what I say in their intrude in my book as I'm not gonna, wait. Ten years two, we have all that research button.
from a science standpoint to build that argument, but the logic is really clear on that argument. I think, and so I feel comfortable putting that imprint. What it was what I was saying that I hadn't run. The studies on is like me particularly talking about it with other people. I hadn't run. That says is sceptical question, I'm listening to this and I may basic goals all is to be less stressed. Less anxious. your person, maybe more successful version, healthier person, Why is this something? I should spend a lot of time. Work. Yeah, well I sleep in. I don't take the stance that it should be. I take the stance. The reason, the title of my book, as the person you mean to be is that this is People who are. Why to pay attend. These issues- and I think in recent years, that number has grown in the United States and probably beyond, and people
struggling for tools and strategies, so this book was Billy written speaking to the people struggling for tools and strategies and feeling helpless, I don't they make an argument in my work that everyone should think about this now I do. I personally think more people should think about this. I do, but I when I was right in the book. I said to myself: if I could wave a magic wand and make everybody in one group read this book. Who would it be? I said I wouldn't I would say it's all the people who already think There are good people and already people who don't think their part of the problem. Around bias. That's exactly four really finger, everybody. Well, yes, but I there's some that are even more sat right like some that are the woke in the very you, signalling crowd, would probably be extreme ended. This book book would be for those folks to do it better yeah
and to realise that, if you're taking that stance but in a good person mindset it if we're all carrying around unconscious bias, ease of one sort or another, but you're doing that. In that light. tight corner with no window. That means you're missing all the ways in which you are not being the person you mean to be, and so that's the crowd that I I have historically been part of that crowd, some speaking very much myself as well. You mentioned before about the I ate, I believe you were talking about the eighty re impress it association direct. You were talking about the consequences in the context of the Google Ventures, gentlemen, who Richter her class and implicit bias. I ain is this test that gets used in a lot of these diversity, whose uranium, where you are Joan a bunch of images and a computer screen and then press a button to see if you're association with the images are negative or positive in its report, to show what your biases on things like raised engendered now,
my Jesse Single narrowed and article in New York magazine. That was a kind of there. To me as a non expert as a devastating take down the idea and I just saw anything I was only mentions it. I've my antenna go up what she bit basically His thesis of I'm back and stated correctly was you could take the you? Any person could take the eighty one day, and the results took it. The next day would be entirely different, which means that by abilities manner by sort of reliable Eliza Anders yes, Fer, a scientific test, its in the toilet. What's your view on this, though Yan I am familiar with his article so that with reliability, the eighty I do, I dont think any science This would say it's toilet level, reliability, but it's not it's not suit, high reliability either. So I know
at whenever I recommend an alien. Take the eighty I say the I recommend you take it multiple times on multiple days, so that you can get a sense of a trend closer trusting one measure on one day and then recommended. This be not the last thing you do to figure out what unconscious bias is you have, but the this or the next thing you do. This is just one piece of understanding how these unconscious bias. He might be working in your mind, by no means a perfect test, but the overwhelming scientific community views it, they credible measure- and I think that has been very clear. early established in the thousands of studies that have been run and published about, I t since the late nineties and so there's been a lot of debate in the media about the credibility of the town.
but that is not the same as peer review by scientists of a test in the peer review by scientists of the tests has actually come out with a pretty clear conclusion that this is a useful task. So you, I wanted to do an experiment. I myself to see if I could reduce my biases yeah, he provides you space. Ok, yeah, right, you're! Well, I thought with eighty is trying to do what is it turned its trying to help you get one measure of your biases at that moment in time, right to our, what I was struck, gonna say is: if I took the test over a week, several times, like average at the results- and they did some then followed your advice from your book for a year He, and I went back into the eighty with that. a fair way to measure whether Ivan proved? So I don't This was the part where time at earlier of we're not. I am not claiming in this book that we can change your unconscious bias. So let's say you like said you sort of overtime. You gets rid of a trend line of where you're unconscious bias tsar. I'm I'm not claiming
but you can necessarily change that through anything, I'm recommending in my book what I am suggesting- is that you can change the impact of conscious biases? Maybe maybe the question will be? Would meditation change? Maybe That's it that's the the work that that I you know there is some work out there on, and is it fair to say that your view is that gave be the case that biases are unchangeable and really all we can work on is not acting in them out. Well, so here's here's the thing, the bar as these were learned at some point. We weren't born with them, so peanut butter, smooth e four. Universal jelly for lots of other people were twinkled twinkle little start. That was a learned Fang right. If you grew up in Iraq that my happy the association you would have there and, same thing is true: the association between lets a black man and violence, which is an association that sometimes often show upon the eighty that that is not so,
The people are born, associating that was somehow learned through their lives and so early Daniel Tatum psychologists describes how smog that we ve breathing end since a moment we were born. Sometimes it's over to us and sometimes set smog. You can't see it it's just for breaches in the air and so on. Thing that is learned could I've been learned a different way, so am I linked to say that there is no way to unlearn and realer in those biases I'm. While we haven't figured out the magical strategy on how to do that. Fear. Is doable right, those it we learned and they could be learned differently but just like, All habits. Habits are hard to change in this this association in our mind, is basically a mental habit, and so some of them promising research on the chain
of unconscious biases is coming from people who are applying habit, change techniques to it like what They did something over six weeks where they had people like in a really daily way sort of pay attention to those associations in their minds and came up with exact technique they use, but it was a pretty high effort ritual that it's hard to imagine someone exerting in a sort of regular life that wasn't forest daddy they were part of, but it did. I have some some change in their unconscious biases, but what what trying to offer. He said if we know the smog is what's shaping our unconscious biases. Let's begin to if the smuggler consuming that may or may not. I don't have the proof that that's gonna change her unconscious biases, but I do know that You continue with the same smog you had before you're, just gonna not even see beyond it would
You say a boot, given the fact that tribalism and toxic partisanship, is a problem in our country. A geek. Would you say that your theses in your research and work would come, could be applied that area as well yeah. I mean to the extent that we ve dehumanized each other. So I do talk about how dehumanizing takes place in a whole variety of ways, some of which are well intended ways and some of which aren't. I think, the toxic atmosphere, you're describing is some of the not so well intended ways of vilified others and any time vilify someone or dehumanize. Someone were basically just seeing them as a caricature and we're not going to its very easy two when someone is a stereo type or a caricature, to not see them in a nuanced way, and so
the research. I was really interested to learn about, as when we view someone is less human. Like let's say I see a person on the street whose homeless theirs research that says that I don't it literally don't look at their face the same when looking at your face that I process there. Facial features in the same way that you might process and objects like this micro. I would be more likely. The mental activity would look more like when I look at this microphone. Then, when I look at you when looking at the person whose homeless and so with the toxic partisanship that we're seeing in the tribalism em it's like were viewing everyone is microphones, as opposed to like people, it would seem the same process of you know them define your media and calling out your inner habits of associating Democrats with three huh where's your whatever name. You could be used in this context
it seems like it yeah I haven't even gone very deeply. I don't I don't my book. I think it's scribe, is potentially being sickly relevant, but I don't really think of it is go when I worked on it but I slowly can see the relevance area you talk about how to show up in difficult conversations outside of your echo chamber. Talk about that in like how would you even for most of us, you know, in a country where it where we ve gone through, which called the big sort where are we we tend to live in areas where were surrounded by people who look like us, and vote for the same political candidates. did we ever even get into conversations where we're outside onwards on yeah? Well, this is where I mean for all the challenges the internet's posing in our lives right now. This is where social media really useful, because you can eavesdrop on a lotta conversations that you would never Access to or you were never even feel it was polite to eavesdrop on a real life. So one of the
Things I suggest is whatever community is you don't feel you're getting access to and regular way? You know, go on Google, hush tags related to black women, let's say and you'll get it a bunch of hashtags, and then you can go on Twitter, Instagram and search for those hashtags and listen and on the conversations that are happening and I'm being Billy deliberate. When I say, listen and I dont mean Inter Jacked, I dont mean hi Jack, I don't mean argue with. I dont mean tried to explain that that this doesn't with theirs. Hey, isn't true and experience. I just me listen end. In the same way you eavesdrop in a coffee shop. You don't introduct yourself in the conversation and you you start to hear conversations that you would never ever have exposure to even if you lived in the same neighborhoods that these herb, I have a conversation, centres were being publicly howled and that's very unique. Twenty
first century phenomena that I don't think anybody ever had before, and the point of this is that you might just start to its it's. It's changing the smog changing the smog in its its helping. You who its changing the smug in your input into four things, but is also intellectually you're you're just under ending things that you wouldn't understand. Otherwise, you're our understanding that there is varied views on an issue? There isn't a one black perspective on carbon capture now, there's a whole bunch of perspectives. Theres many perspectives, sir. Our black people and yours Your hearing of the debate in the dialogue in a really rich intellectual. I talk about something that I think a lot of white people do, which is cookie craving yeah. Well, we all due to be clear. I think cookie craving is men phenomena so cookie craving
It is this desire. We have to feel affirmed for our good person identity to be pat on the back to be told that were woke or that were you know not a success, not a racist, and that we are sometimes without meaning to a little more focus on that than on the actual issues. I tell a story in the book about a former student, a mine Rachel, her any act, Rachel identifies is queer and when she will up Sunday morning after that, Orlando pulse, shooting and learned the news. She was devastated. And she said you know that for many of us, the Gay night club was the first safe place we ever encountered, and now this this was punctured. This DE and she worked at a very progressive Wes, coasts company in the kind of place where people wouldn't call them, EL straight, but not narrow, and so she sheep
on the one hand, you would think that's exactly the workplace. She'd want to walk into Monday morning and feel the support of her colleagues, but she said she was dreading going to work the next day. he ended up actually blogging about it late Sunday night how she was just so just about Monday morning in which she express is that it was the cookie seeking that all her well intended. Colleagues, she knew would come up to her, but they would tell about her college roomy who came out to the more the money they give to their Trevor project? any number of cookies, taking behaviors in the work would be on her to comfort them shares that she's the daughter of a pastor- and she said, I noticed something going to lots of funerals as a kid you know, tagging along with my dad is that when people were coming up to- those grieving. They seem to be focused more on their feelings than the the grieving of the family.
And she said it felt the felt like that- that this was what was happening and they were well intended. But I was gonna need to be stroking them, instead of them taking care of me, so we all do, this cookie seeking and part of what we're just trying to do by thinking yourselves, goodish, not good, is give take the cook seeking out of our interactions with other people. It's really exhausting for people who are already dealing with being the target of any kind of bias. Too then also comfort, the people around them. If we sort of validate ourselves as works in progress and get out of that binary than they don't have to do that. For us, we get get some of the other concepts you you talk about in the book, bounded ethic. What is that founded at the county does receive four jargon? I think it only shows up once in the book, but it's a spin off of those who, like books like now
age or thinking fast and slow by Nobel Prize Winners, Richard Taylor and the economy, and they ve been, did rationality, was a big idea in economics and behavioral economics. It speaks of the fact that the human mind has limited processing power and does it two things on autopilot and that's a pretty intuitive idea. For most of us bounded ethic holiday, is the work they have done with MAX Baiser men. That says: well, if that same mind when it goes to buy cereal is prone to some judgments. errors and judgment, because you know it's gonna be more swayed by. What's it I level mental short cut Why would I assume that same brain wouldn't also be prone to some errors when it comes to what joke to tell her who to higher so the the idea is that, if we're going to assume their some fallibility when it comes to decisions like what's, Ariel D by and we all
have to realise that same brain relies on short cuts and there may be some fallibility when it comes to issues. Like diversity and inclusion, I view the a english evolution as being sort of more accessible way. Of explaining bounded at the county final question: is we wrap up how much out of it Do you have that at a time when were really at are at each other's throats? you're, more focused on and on sex. business racism, but an those two for sure, big, big forest, the culture right now, but also political tribalism, etcetera, etc, etc, were all of which seem to me to be tied together haven't outcome? Is you have that we can work our way through these issues? I think that everyone else I'm having better days and worst days, but I will tell you thus I There is somebody in my sort, a community he who had come back and forth.
With on some of these issues, in a way where I didn't feel he was really seeing my point of view and I'm sure he felt the same way around me is a white male and then we didn't each other for a couple years, and then we ran into each other and ice cream parlor, where we both had taken our kids, I saw him at the other side of the room and you someone. I enjoys company lobbies a terrific eyes, a terrific dad, but you know I really didn't want, engage on these issues with ice cream parlour and so I was like the frozen? When I saw him heading towards me- and I thought oh gosh here- we go, but you know it's gonna be a thing like I'm gonna have to do this right for the kids and, to my surprise, with great grief is that I deeply admire he came up to me and said I am so glad I saw you haven't seen you in a long time, I'm starting to think you're onto something
I am going to read your book because I'm starting to notice things I hadn't noticed the office and I'm I'm realising some of the issues you ve been talking about. There may be something to it. And in a million years I didn't see that coming, I really did and so I think we plant seeds and had I not happened to be in that ice cream par that day. I never would have known that he is sort of moving too words noticing that that he wasn't doing before. Did you get him their the veal light or heat? I'm I'll, I think, a path is always light. Just cause I'm too big a wimp for him. I wish I could do he I really wish I could I just not good at it. So I mean I don't know how he experienced it, but don't you think I did that much all I did was in a couple of like Facebook comments that enough. That's enough didn't like completely like made me cry really! Well, you know it. Where are, we all have temperaments that they're not
there we didn't choose a better. Thank you so much I appreciate all so exciting moment before negotiations, just plug everything like give us the name of the book and give us your social media. Anything you want of plug. Oh you well, thank you. The in the book, is the person you mean to be how good people fight bias was endorsed by grant an annual Angela, Duckworth and pillaging king, there's a TED talk that is on a similar subject. If you'd like to see that in ITALY of ten percent happier any errors, and I think you should read it. Thank you very much. excellent work things out of you. Even there I'll take a plug anywhere I can get it even even my own show Dolly chug. Thank you very much. I suspect I ve been talking about the site www and you know, as I write this book, is I endeavoured to write this book about. The benefits of not being mean. I suspect that this interviews gonna be in, and what,
it will be. An ongoing relationship is gonna, be white, useful. I must get to our voice. Males! Here's one a little damage, Casey thanks for everything you do my habit and the goal of buddhist meditation. Alas, they know not what the word goal, but I have to put it together, was taken, and that seems to me to be mindful of the emotions and awareness. Everything was bad if you're trying to be aware of sadness in China detached Roma and let it pass it seems like we were just in not being Gandhi like. If we just
aware of everything, nine judge mentally or whatever words we want to you and let them path like a baby would zombie, but I think I've been looking at the wrong and I get the goal of my opponents and more scope to be with what's happening like that, like de Witt Sabbath, but through being mindful unpremeditated, we are adding all the actual mental fear that go along with that, like ruminating about at her thinking about again dredging up again on purpose. Every them up, but that negative. Thank you here is one of those rare questions it you you answered for yourself. That's exactly right of a lot of people worry that we are trying to do tat is there a reason why meditation teachers are super persnickety about language, because that the goal here isn't to be detached from your emotions to be it's, it's a buddhist teachers, often for the
the term non attachment or non identification. So you aren't trying to make yourself into a zombie you're trying to have a different relationship to your emotions. so they are not acting them out blindly or overly personalizing them. If you are experiencing anger and you're, not you not telling us story about how this is your unique anger is actually it can be viewed as an impersonal emotional squall that's happened to be passing through the atmosphere and that can take a lot of the teeth that out of the thing. And so it is about being a zombie. It's about actually just being a more effective human. who isn't yanked around by his or her emotions, because you ve got this ass city, to be non attached, not detached, not attached, so that you aren't. You feel what you're feeling fully, but you don't act.
On it blindly, yeah. I don't think I need to say much work, because you answered your own question quite beautifully. Thank you, I am a member to again. This is Steve calling for many uplifts question about the recent past with Mark Epstein. At one point he spoke about his conversations with his father, in which he asked his father to reflect upon that part of himself that you recognise the is the consistent part of himself if he recognized over the course of his life.
and that seem to me to be consistent with the notion of other self, and I wonder how that squares with the concept of selflessness, which seems to be a fundamental part of Buddhist teaching, it seems that really wasn't consistent with the notion of shelf. Was not so and if you could explain that takes a lot of Europe here Apt and your part by the way the fantastic. Thank you thank you Steve. So I I will do my best to explain this with it
happy at that. I am I get confused about this stuff to selflessness is, in my experience, the concept in Buddhism that people get hung up on the most, so Mark Epstein tells a story in his recent past about talking to his ailing father on his death bed, fathers put that Patty at brain, a brain tumor, I believe and Mark told him mark- had never really spoken him his is bureau, Jewel Life and so be it took an men attempt and he basically said to his father. You try to tune in to the feeling of you. That's been with you continuously throughout your life. I just can't
Rest in that, as in Europe, you ride that out as you as you, expire anyway, Mark was of the view that that that that was a strategy worth explore. And so, of course you may say Yuri if you ve been listen, if any amount of Buddhism you be like well wait a minute. I thought there was no you. So what are you talking about here so that, with a way think about this is the constant the phrases that are often or that the concepts that are often used in Buddhism are relative reality and ultimate. Reality? This may sound like the names of bad highschool upon bans, but bear with me really to reality- is the world in which we all move from day to day. You know where all you no kind of moving. through the world as we conventionally. No it relates. to one another. Everything seems solid. I am me I can find my chest. I have to put my
and so on. In the morning every Euro things are, as they see, that's relative or conventional reality ultimate reality, the ultimate truth of things is sometimes compared to. quantum physics so I'm sitting on a chair right now, a conventional level looks like a chair, but if you add a soup, powerful microscope. You would see it mostly empty space and spinning subatomic particles. the same is true with you, so no, the relative or conventional level, your you, your Steve, you Oh you again, you put your hands on the morning, make a dense deployment. You eat your you but on some ultimate, an important level, there's no they're they're. So both things are true. At the same time, internally, you have a sense of you enter and Mark is a bit of a country in the world.
this world, because sometimes Buddhists really militate against this feeling of you but Mark. I think, for reasons perhaps having to do with his psychotherapeutic background does it want to outlaw the sense of self and say that it's all bad, because I would be in his view to deny reality. He likes to quote an ancient Mongolian, teachers teacher of the Tibetan lineage a buddy was. It was about mongolian teacher who came up in the Tibetans system who once said Jane, didn't, of course, you're real you're, just not really real, so that's the zebra r d grass pair here on one level. You are you and your sense, your inner sense of you is now but in valid and nodded I really destructive, but on another level, if you close your eyes and look for some poor Steve. You can't find it
and then not finding so the teaching goes is healing in and of itself. Why? Because, then you're not taking everything that every neurotic obsession that flits through your mind so personally and it's the taking of your anger and attacked with this earlier. As being you and yours that can lead you to feed it and re up it. Re up it in re up it in a way that becomes compulsive, an erotic and destructive. So it's about this balance, the booty teachers will tell you holding this balance in your mind. Is paradox in your mind between conventional, a relative reality and ultimate reality and I will not claim to have mastered these teachings at all recently have started to see for myself of the ways in which their you in a sort of down to earth way. Again my mind. I think there are lots of ways,
we have fallen down to earth way and probably a smarter person could explain this to you, but to either the it really does come back to, I love the idea of not taking what pops through your head. Personally, as again, then you're not so caught up in it and it's the getting caught up in it. That can be that can really lead us to do the things we regret either. Internally in terms of habits of mind or externally, through our behaviour, Joseph Goldstein, my meditation teacher well sometimes tell people to pretend that your thoughts are coming from the person next to you. Will that how you full is that by the way we didn't invite these thoughts anyway, there just you, know, We came to a certain extent direct our own thinking, but a lot of this that our ego vomit up, we don't know where it comes from. This is the great mystery of of consciousness, and so oh, that simple little trick of pretending, whatever thoughts her bubbling up through your
find right now. Actually there yours are coming for the person next to you, first saw me, make you hate the person next to you, but it does kind of decouple you from this process that is owning you much of your life, and that to me is where this rather abstruse esoteric concept of selflessness. It that that's where the rubber hits the road in my experience at least one of the areas where the rubber hits the road so that clear it up. A little bit gave me such such good questions this week. I hope a matting, some some value there. I really appreciate the questions on the subject of appreciation. I want to give a big shout out to folks who produced the show, I'm looking at Suzy, LU by Kelly through the glass right now, hi Susie she's, making sure that my voice isn't too loud and sure that everything has been afforded and then their rank Kessler does the day to day work of producing the show and
Samuel Johnson, Grace Livingston ten percent happier, folks, who helped me stay prepared at it. Early, and also that and and yet our guests So a lot of people doing a lot of work, all of which I am on here and often spoke up, but I do feel incredibly grateful too to everybody's doing work, and I feel incredibly, very full to everybody's listening. If you I make me more grateful you can go on rate review or fleet our Facebook about the podcast. That that's always super helpful, no requirement, I'm not going to send the police after you, if you don't, but we love it when you do at very least you very much for listening and see an next. there's not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona, I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who were soon
every day, this is my Monday. Last day of the cylinder stretch photos from one about these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a homespun mom and now in a new programmes from ABC News you gonna hear from damage. Was she went back to my office on cybercrime because he is not here and making sure that our community hostility smiled faintly Lorraine? This is the essential inside the from the emergency room, the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves norms which is always a risk. Your brain is home to re. Kids are my husband or my appearance listened to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, river podcast. Him.