« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

#206: Finally... The Joseph Goldstein Episode

2019-09-25
One of the first American Vipassana teachers and the co-founder of Insight Meditation Society, Joseph Goldstein, is a highly recognized name to many in western meditation. He has studied and practiced various forms of Buddhist meditation under world renowned teachers from India and he has led, and continues to lead, numerous insight and loving-kindness meditation retreats worldwide. Goldstein shares his abundance of knowledge on insight meditation, the confusion between attention and mindfulness, ethical frameworks and provides clarity on various terms such as the awakened mind, checking the attitude of the mind, in-order-to mind and more. Currently, Goldstein is a meditation teacher at the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts as well as on the Ten Percent Happier app. He is also the author of numerous publications such as Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening and One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism. Plug Zone Insight Meditation Society: https://www.dharma.org/teacher/joseph-goldstein/ Joseph Goldstein Courses & Meditations on the Ten Percent Happier App: https://10percenthappier.app.link/x9Q0TCy36Z New York Insight December 5th Event: https://www.nyimc.org/event/an-evening-with-joseph-goldstein-and-dan-harris-staying-sane-in-a-crazy-world/ Bonus Meditation: Be Simple & Easy: https://10percenthappier.app.link/6WVKqYJV6Z Jeff Warren November Meditation Retreat: https://jeffwarren.org/event/fidgetyskeptics-northcarolina-2/ ***VOICEMAILS*** Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail: 646-883-8326
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see is that the ten percent happier vodka and finally In three years we ve had this gas. Finally, Joseph goals It is on the show I feel little bit like big bird talkin about his best friend snaffle off again, because I ve been talking about Joseph Goldstein on every other. Podcast episode since we started Rowan low these many years and yet he's never come on. But finally, we got em to sit down here in the studio and takes four questions, and it was awesome, as you are about to here in case you ever heard of Joseph, since we we dive right into questions about meditation and had a practice and how to break out in your world. In this episode, we don't dive too deeply into his background. So let me just give you the day, a thirty second version of that Joseph went to the club
the university I graduated in the sixties, and that was when the peace corps was getting started. He ended up in Thailand. He was loss of major inserted sort of get interested in going to local monastery, a Buddhist on a story in Thailand to talk to the monks about Buddhist Full, Sofia and they ultimately got him meditating and fifty. Years later at age. Seventy five, maybe more than fifty years later, he went deep, deep deeply into the practice spent years and years. in Asia, the younger man studying intensively came back back in the seventies and along with Jack Cornfield and share in Salzburg, started a place called the insight meditation society in Central Massachusetts. Which is a fantastic retreat centre where Joseph now lives and teaches and He has also in his later years, from my opinion. Distinguished himself has put it as one of the guiding teachers on the ten percent happier app share.
The insurance or both the founding guiding teachers on on our app and Joseph has created a ton of content on the app he's really along with Sharon, kind of heart and soul of the thing we ve done. All these amazing courses where I've gotten to sit down and talk to Joseph and his wisdom for lack of a less grandiose term kind of just oozes through the frame- and so I think one of the area of pride for me here, and there are many in this app. Is that bringing Josephs awesomeness out into the world, both through videos that we ve done and also the hours and hours of guided meditations that he's done for us that are up there by the wages little plug for the app. If you want to check it out and you haven't, you can get seventy. is for free. One housekeeping note about Joseph is that he and I are actually doing a public event together on Thursday December fifth in New York City. It's a benefit for the New York insight, meditation centre, falling
Is in the show notes, I encourage you to come check it out Another item of business related to Joseph is that in a few days we're going to post a free, guided meditation from him in this pod gas feed, final thing, I'll say before we diving here is that I have had a in extremely privileged life on many levels. Very lucky dude, one of the luckiest things that has ever happened to me in this very lucky life is a meeting Joseph befriending him and having him as my meditation teacher personally, he has had an enormous impact on me much but I do in the world is directly a result of the work I've done with him so Joseph I love you and thank you for coming on the show here we go. We ve had more than two hundred guests on the show celebrities, athletes.
scientists, meditation teachers who took all of them were willing to come on the show I haven't had a twist any arms and for all that time I have been able to get. You shows like I get. My first question is: why do you hate me so that I had overcome and I really happy to have your talk about you all the time on the shows our audience is gonna, be pleasantly surprised to. Finally, have you been like this now falafel guess of this show. normally I start by asking people to how did they get into meditation, but failure force you to tell that story many times in earlier today. Jack on and off, for the listeners that will actually be several weeks ago before they hear your our interview. So several weeks ago we had jack on and I started in
I started with a question that was recommended by two people independently one is, but both in the ten percent happier universe wanted J, Michaelson and the other is car a lie. So their question was very interesting. Would I be I'm really need to hear your answer is what, in the teachings is for you right now, the most challenging where'd. You have the most trouble applying mindfulness aside from mere distaste for me opening
you know within the buddhist teachings, there's a list of ten qualities which are called the parties or the perfections of the Buddha so that these qualities of mind that only to be developed for awakening things like generosity and loving, kindness, wisdom, concentration, things like that, but the one the one power may that needs the most work for me, I think it is a department of renunciation, and so that's where I see you know when different desires come up in the mind they can be the small things or big thing. The tendency of my mind is that looks great. Let's go for it, and so those moments. Now I don't really need that island and we have to do this.
The moment of seeing the desire and actually practising renunciation, that's the one it then I'm working on. I think a lot in every time. I do actually not go for the second, whatever, whatever the desire is filled with great moral victory Mara, I've come could you for this moment? Anyone let myself be just what who's Mara Orgasm Maria within the Buddhist teachings, is kind of the embodiment of ignorance of delusion and so often representatives the tempter. You know that that forcing the minor ones to seduce us into it, judgment in clinging. You have pointed this out many times in your talks. Have wasn't your talk, show and talk to you directly? Sometimes it I'm pretty sure and played rising you non. Stop.
feel guilty about it, but I have to it You have said many times here talk you pointed out that the Buddha but we all think of, is that I guess maybe perfected or something like that is in the script. Right there in the scriptures, which are his purported to be his words, saying Mara. I see you and others are the the temptation is still arising for for him in his mind. Well, with this goes to a point of controversy, certainly among contemporary western buddhist stages. I think my how our asian teachers would have you this, but Mara can be understood in two ways from the point of view of the classical teachings. That is
the forces of ignorance in the mind, but also actually, as a being, you know who this is the traditional explanation. You know that that Maura is kind of the king of the highest Heaven realm and his mission is to keep all beings ensnared in the round in the round of sense the lights and sends pleasures so the class. So they don't make it too has level. Nowadays they could be reborn it, but that's not awakening that's Nice vacation and oppression realm and sir he's fine with that or she would have heard whatever gent again. This is the sort of this the quietest religious, Yakima yeah. So in that case
you know in the Buddha says my I see you from that interpretation. It's actually in reference to a being, so it's not the force of craving desire in his own mind, so that an this among contemporary, certainly western borders, teachers visit division of opinion about whether it's really like bad weather. It's just Mars, just our representation in what in our minds. So that's. One way of understanding it. Where do you foreignness? I tend to lean towards the classical view, since that's my
meaning anyway of Mara as substitute being, but I could also imagined, but this would be a very interesting and settled point to engage with somewhat empowered. Whether this is possible lady, for example, desire arising in the mind but with no hook at all, as as, if it were just another, Thought you know where there was no no inclination and conditioning to go for it or to act on it Which is a little different and different than what some people have? Some people have interpreted
desire arises in the mind, but the Buddha didn't identify with it. So that's one explanation of that. More I see you, but I see a subtle distinction between desire arising in the mind where there is real desire. But it's not identified with being different, then desire, just as I thought, but there is really no desire in it. There's no there's none of that greed, even imbedded in that thought. You know so this is a very subtle distinction in because there's no way of resolving this short of having conversation with the Buddha for has got what what really is going on in your money, because we could ask you about me model. Might this topic desires fully charred batter?
Please ensure that whilst there for you, it's so interesting meeting your men, I guess I kind of new this, but for you Zaire comes up and there are you, take those data, occasionally openness What are the again I know some of this, but what gets you Goin couldn't hear me, but you won't see you once Tommy. You can't resist a shoe salesman. I can resist, the salesman can resist the shoes. Really have like a gilt thing, completely trends completely codependent if the salesman actually bring, maybe because my shoes, my size, is so big Heaven to care size. Fourteen choose out
I feel you know they did all this work. I feel compelled the third. Why like online, but it could be anything could be. For example, you know even on retreat or or of retreat to something smaller the photo come up. Capacity would be nice said system does not us, it's not a signal second desire, but the force of desire is there, and I can watch my mind just be aware. A red letter come and go and come and go, but it's almost like a blade of grass. Parliament shoot lino growing up through concrete. The four, even with a small desire. The force of it can be very persistent and I've noticed so many times, no watching the desire, come and go many times and then comes once more an accident
it could be something I was small as that. could be anything you know walking over here. I don't get to New York that often a watering down. You know this window shopping, saying either gadget to some piece of clothing, oh about the nice and mostly they just coming up, but occasionally they hook the mind and it's interesting just to watch. You know, what's what's lacking and one of the interesting things I've learned, Watching my mind in relationship to desire is the one peace that seems to be lacking a bed at those times when I just go, for it is the quality of energy, and this is a recent kind of
understanding them actually feeling a low energy, and so the mind is more susceptible to listen. In my experience more susceptible to the lure of the desire when the energy is law, that's been interesting, yet it that jobs. Would I what I have sometimes heard. From folks in who study human behavior, especially around willpower, so willpower, extremely ephemeral quality vulnerable in the face of there's an acronym halt, H, a l t, hunger, anger, loneliness or tire or being tired, so that the t there seems their job with your exaggerating when you talked about this ability is a skill you ve developed over time for the most part to be able to see a lot of these desires come without fighting the hook. I love
you, ve talked again another qualm, quoting you back to you about the Buddha talking about the terrible beat of the words, were all fighting the bay. Whatever you ve, gotten the euro, smarter fish at this point or a wiser fish now would that be even though you meditating. Since eighteen sixty two or wherever. With that have been true. You know in your thirty's, even though you ve been meditating for a while, then or is there Have you seen? Are you getting better at this overtime? Even now, I think I'm getting margin past, but now I think I am getting better I'm seeing it more clearly? You know- and even when I just mentioned about recognise The main goal is for that more frequently when I'm tired suggests Billy noticing that in southern, when I'm tired When I remember you, I keep something of an eye out for the disease.
irish, knowing that this is this, where I can really get caught, and sometimes it successful from whose thoughts and then says to go for it. So we ve been learning and also one of the things whether it comes from just all these years of meditation. I just know the aging process. I think I'm less, adduced by the belief that whatever it is, will really make me happy. So I can still go for it, but I'm not very.
often deluding ourselves into thinking. This is gonna, be the answer to everything. Now it's more the playing out of justice very deeply conditions habit of mind so that there is a deeper understanding of really the empty nature of desire. That's not really can fulfil once ones, aspirations for happiness, another Joseph ISM, and they just this this idea that, whatever it is, we want once we get it. We're gonna be good forever is in five minutes for, but is this Lunches often so conscious primordial lie that we re up all the time. Soon as I get this promotion or as I am able to get married or get that slice a cake and eat it Court of the room like then, I'm really gonna be happy. You ve talked of this is the Jos Joseph is most getting it before you talk
of giving a rehab to the word disenchantment. I love the positive. The disenchantment I'd be very positive, as can another word that you at you. earlier. Another word that can be seen in the most positive light would often isn't is renunciation exactly an end, the phrase that helps me with renunciation, is re framing it in terms of non addiction, because when I think of renunciation especially earlier on a lot to some extent still now it does have that almost a connotation of deprivation, ok, renounce this said will be good for me. He,
but the kind of contains within it that the effect of on depriving myself something, whereas when I frame renunciation, is non addiction, so then the connotation is really a freedom, it's not deprivation, and so that that often convene inspiration for actual practice for little none addiction. This thing another subtle point which I have just been exploring very recently with his gun at the latest. I just didn't Joseph breaking, Russia is an exact science. What,
desire in my mind and see myself act on act on it and very classically. You know the Buddha thought that this was in meditation is very closely with Buddha torpid what conditions are desire, a pleasant feelings. We want something because of the pleasantness that we think will come from it. So a big part of the teaching is just realizing the impermanence of pleasant feeling. So, even if you know what we want does bring some pleasure it's pretty fleeting and the more we understand that said, the less addicted. We become that that was the the ongoing understanding. What is happening under, but just.
recently as I've been watching my mind before the fulfilment of the desire. But while I was still having the desired. In my mind, I notice that the anticipation of getting what I want had a certain kind of pleasure embedded in it and that actually, what was more seductive to me than the thing itself I was given on the site of amusing that I worked it, but maybe some thing analogous. It's almost like the thought of what I want. The very thought gives a little in often hit or whatever, but whenever the chemical is in the brain of pleasure, hit, maybe dopamine yard, and so then I realized. Yes, so am I keep thinking,
About it and wanting uneven acting to keep the current pleasant feeling going, it wasn't even so much I'll, get this thing and then a few happy or good reside in the very process of desiring. That was triggering my response. There's a clear yes to me. so that was really interesting from men and it helps Bring my awareness closer to the arising, your folks, more on actually the hook of the desire itself in the moment, even before the acting on it. What what is it that keeps feeding it? Why do I keep being seduced by it and ass?
Oh you know this. This pleasant feeling associated with this. As I thought I want more, I want to continue their efforts really interesting, commit a hook. Isn't just the consummation of the know. How hook is the anticipated Hannah, consummation, yeah and end the pleasant feeling in the end patient. That's right. That's yes, but simply that goes. I think, back to what I was saying. I am about the upside of disenchantment, which is, This spell again, I'm quoting Jack. You have you I'm gonna do I get it is nothing to stop if it were operating under the spell that all these things we ve got our view. That is this is this is happiness of it and and the breaking of that spell the disenchantment is quite liberating exec overnight. Liberating is the word the very word
The very word in the buddhas there's a little raise who uses which to me in this whole discussion when he said that the highest happen this is peace in answer. You know there are different levels of happiness and one kind is happening. We get from sense pleasures, so the I not denying that they bring a certain gratification they do, which is Why were enamoured of them, but there is a downside to them as well, and that is that, unless you know- and so if we keep thinking that that's gonna, be the source of our happiness, then were on this endless treadmill because never fulfilled its. Never quickly fulfilling in it were satisfying, but it's not to deny that has its own level of happiness associated with. It stressed this much greater happiness.
and in meditation even of it, even if it's just for a few moments at a time when we actually can experience the piece by piece of not wanting, we retain that for us ass, even for a few moments that opens up a whole new possibility, force and alive no election. If we really see that clearly, even as we continue with the habit of wanting in fulfilling the once fix that happens, deep, it's not gonna fuck, no end just from some understanding at its impermanent, but even if that happened is continuing, stilly insight or the experience, but disagree your happiness. That really can reset. Can we set the direction of our lives, which is why meditation practice all along the way is good.
at the beginning when people are having a lot of struggles, are difficulties with it seeing alive Desires rise in the mind, that's all part of the process, but we get glimpses. You get glimpses of the possibility and then they can be really transforming I've. Three things to say: I've written down because there are some of us have terrible memories and so will get lost, but I want to sail three them in their most, but I'll make sure I'll make sure we get to further is just a clarification. I think you said We are not in this discussion of renunciation and disenchantment, saying don't ever have a piece of cake. we're not saying her account, you should Gimme us now and forever, neither of us hooked, okay, so that the first thing box jet second Thing and third thing is that you have to
oh really interesting practices that I think can be have a very helpful for me and might be helpful for people listening. So I get you to talk about both em out of a name them both and then you can do them both or do one at a time when everyone one is- and I think we talk about this- Yep letting a desire pass so and the other is this little free. he's a u and vote a moment ago of not wanting can be drawn up that phrase not wanting can be dropped in to the practice in a way that is very interesting. So can we talk of others? What was the first one again, the second one, the crystal list, the verses, Boston, was this this
loaded desire rending our my moment after it has. I am yet pass yeah! Ok, so this is interesting to watch. Pigs desires come up. All the time may come couples they long big ones with ones, but in meditation was sitting and we're having this time when we consciously not acting on them. Now it's giving us the framework for this sitting and observing the mind rather than being totally caught up in the mines activity. So it gives us a chance to really experience What it's like, when the desires and the mind, and if we just meditating, mindful being aware at a certain the desire is going away. It always does because everything is changing and impermanent. So it gives us a chance to experience directly what it's like
To be ensnared by the desire and then what it's like, when the mind is free of desire. For going back to what I was just saying earlier in watching, the quality of the mind when the desires there there is at least my experience. There is some pleasantness involved that anticipatory pleasure. But especially when we look at that experience, in contrast to the mind that is like the desire or the desire simply passed, and we experienced the ease of no desire, the of the mind, not wanting so then from nine percent
Even though there is a pleasure involved and the desire we can all also experience its contracted, nature is a certain feeling of contraction or tightness, something we're we're imprisoned. We ve created perhaps a comfortable for its hidden in the pleasant pleasantness of or into suppression, but it's still And imprisonment which we can really see clearly in that moment, if we're just sitting in watching with desire to their third there and then.
Does the way right. In that moment, it is very important to pay attention to that feeling of relief. You know, I often described it as it feels like we've been let out of the grip of something that the desire was gripping us and then we released from the grip. So that's very interesting to watch. those two minds states which happened in them, which we can see clearly that moment when we going from being in the grip of desire to the moment when it just changes and disappear and special circumstances are not required to practise not at all, had not even standing sitting meditation the right all right, that's what I'm so that will they long right? Just you know, walking down the hallway. You notice the urge to whatever put a pencil in the eye of
worker. Whatever you kept, your dad has this coming arrive ass? That's already! Aren't you whenever desire record cake with anything and if you just You know like a modicum of self awareness. You catch. Ok, they here. I am this here's another one. If you miss this one, there will be another one thirty seconds later and then just pay attention don't you know feeding her fighting it. You did what watching us. It will go away. I've found in my own experience that is enormously satisfies. Yes, this that that's that victory over Mara. Yes, more. I see you it is satisfying and it is. Benjamin that that those moments throughout the day really are strengthening our meditative practice. Instead, they not debate. This is not insignificant. I think this is a really power
The full practised incorporate just in in our ordinary everyday lives, and I just want to make a linguistic point I suspect the language of Mara, I see you was chosen, I suspect, deliberately the apostle another kind of meditation you teach translates roughly into incite meditation. This is all about the clear see exactly of our own inner processes so that we're not so yanked around it exactly not everyone Vienna has. You can put your next retreat danger retiring just you say yes, exact, let it every all of my utterances of you can come bangs much other you didn't want to come out of that agenda says so. Not wanting as a phrase to be dropped in to our meditation. You ve been suggesting this me in our teacher student militia, prolong tat. He taught
talk about how that my work, so it's the same principle as we have just been talking about, seeing the piece of not wanting recently in my practice, I've been seeing more and more clearly, both myself and in working with lots. Lots of meditated, even when we're just. In the simplicity of the mind from this pact has been just sitting feeling the breath feeling different sensations forthcoming, going. This very ordinary, straightforward sitting practice still very often is a tendency to be leaning into the next moment, So it's watching the in breath with a sigh light, leaning into the outgrowth or with some sensation, maybe a painful
sensation in the body and we're with it in order for it to diminish or is very often a subtle in order. To mind so, I call left leaning into the process. A kind of wanting, even for the next moment, experience not necessarily a big wanting something outside its the wanting that is often right there in or meditation, which often goes unnoticed fix. It can be really saddle. So I found dropping in that phrase as I'm sitting again. If this can be a very ordinary citizens, we don't have to be in any kind of deep concentration. You just drop in the phrase. Occasionally wanting and for myself anywhere. Maybe you had the same experience in that moment the reminded us of not wanting can often
the mind drop back from that Lee turning into the next moment, and we get a text, we get a real taste. On a subtle and quite a subtle level in the meditative process of what the experience of not wanting is. not now wondering even the next moment something to happen, and that really is a very vivid experience of what the meditation this is really all about, and this is often misunderstood, because an especially These people are beginning in you know they come to meditation from a variety of motivations, rich, Earl, fine, you know it ever brings people to the practice, but it's often framed in terms of some kind of wanting
Which can be a useful motivation, may be wanting more com or wanting to be less stress the wanting peace wanting something, as I said, I'm not saying that that's that's bad, benign and actually brings us to the practice, but then, as resettle into the meditation itself- and we have these experiences of not wanting wanting any you about dropping back from leaning into the next moment that really illuminates. This is what the practice is about, because we we get a taste of that peace and it's quite profound, even if it's just momentary, we get a real glimpse of it. So this is a kind of meditative application of watching desire.
Men go so that more what more talked return: Maeterlinck, moron and the everyday level of our lives. Are we talking about? Now is really the meditative moment to moment experience. So I've tried doesn't send out of it. This may just be more evidence as if it was needed what a terrible meditate or I am, but there are times in I try dropping em a meditating here, am whatever happening in my meditation azalea villages have told me that thing that untried thing the phrase not wanting- and I and on occasion when I can remember to do this, that at an of yours- and you probably haven't, but did there- are these famous primetime pieces of news pieces that my colleague my and colleague Chris Cuomo did where he would go into hotel rooms with a black light, and shining on on the bed or at all over the place and all sorts of disgusting things were on their right and
I find that when I point- and I dropped not wanting in just like Chris in his black light at all- The wanting that was there is all of a sudden illuminated, I'm realizing. Oh wow I thought I was like meditating nicely gave. It is just a ton of wanting that's happening here instead of perhaps instead of in my case often getting a momentary glimmer of they do not want to get this points to an instruction. Give a lot on meditation retreats for visit. A less subtle analogy to do what we ve been talking about, and that is its very common when people are setting, of course, a lot of thought and very often were carried away by thoughts until wake up and we realise we're thinking and then we're back to any of the body or the bath
We even aware of awareness itself the tendency that many people have. Once they wake up from being lost in thought, they judge themselves for having been lost. That's the first Rick First reaction lost lost, lost man I've been thinking out there. I gotta get I'm thinking and there are so many thoughts and so I'm just getting caught up in linguistic. So what I am I happened to me. Seventy five The exact its common targets so suggestions for people in at the moment of waking up from being lost in the thought and again its prey, I think so we remember to do it. It's not hard to do its duty to remember in a moment
waking up from being lost to actually focus the attention on the experience of the wakefulness rather than The reflection back on having been lost because. as many times as we get lost in thought. Exactly that many times, do we wake up right right right? So why not focus on the awakening aspect because actually, waking up is a victory. Don't you once advise me night. A may be is miss, remember, Springhill word at a time remembering it incorrectly it there's it there's phrase a motto: phrase: a Emma HO, which means how amazing, And then you could, if I'm remembering this greatly, that you could invoke that phrase upon waking up like oh wow, actually look at me,
Our is easy. I can actually be awake. I am. I can stop sleepwalking fears that but even more to the point- or maybe using those thoughts, is as an impetus tat actually become. Mindful of the experience of the wakefulness, not just the comment it I'm awake again, which is good. I mean that's a good support, but you don't want to stay in the thought. The level about the wakefulness- you really want to take that opportunity and could be just a few moments.
but take the opportunity of having awoken from being lost to taste, to taste that moment of freedom. Suddenly we have a clear and increasing clarity of out. This is what awareness is like a very real for us, because this is our experience, has not theoretical I want, somebody taught us. This is what wakefulness is very vivid in their moment, because we ve just come out of being of having been asleep fur for people who work, Sir still getting engine adaptation you're, a lot of words EU just use that might benefit from explication words like wakefulness and its connection to freedom or awareness. Can you say more about all of those? Well, I think I think one of the
easiest ways to really understand the meaning of those words is being mindful of this precisely what we ve been talking about. in that move. from being lost in thought to becoming aware that we're thinking right there. the difference between being lost and being aware, is very vivid because we ve just gone from one to the other, and so that's, a very easy way to get a feel for taste of the nature of awareness because were experiencing it. in the moment, and this happens many times it happens as many times as we lost in thought because I said
for as many times as were lost them many times. Do we eventually come out from the west, but mostly people just awful look that moment? Then they not they not reaping the benefits that they could if they would pay attention to what that feeling of wakefulness is like in that very moment. Let me say a bunch of wording. You can in fact Schekem so aware, in this context is mindfulness. Yes, a non commenting, none judge Mental, not adding or subtracting wanting or rejecting awareness of whatever happening right now, which may sound super theoretical, and it is tough to describe because it is a little bit but to use a cliche here like dancing about architecture. It is better to experience than to describe, but if you meditate enough.
It's not a case against its varied down to earth, not as an actual state were trying to achieve, it is not something you can be in place for Beginner non ordinary beginners and I put myself in that crew nazi you're to be in permanently meditation val this ongoing process of noticing usually we anchor on our breath the feeling, the raw data, this physical, sensations of the rising and falling of the breath, and then you get lost in a million thoughts. And then you wake up your back with broad And over and over and over again in that way, we get these little taste of what lies beneath our thoughts. I am especially if we're paying attention in that movement of coming out from being lost because, as I said, people very often to skip over that an either
went to some judgment about having been thinking or rushed back to whatever their object of meditation. His flock look. I've been less back to the rat S without actually taking that moment to experience the mind right of wakefulness and with your tail between your legs alone, whether that is not so so. Hence the power of a phrase like a hoe. A whole or welcome back some little phrase to mark the occasion. So then the tales thoughts wagging in the eye ts instead of between ones like yes like better image of your happiness has could be this image of then wagging his pale every time he wakes up from being lost and thought, and I should be careful guessing you who knows where this is gonna go. We can also have the image of you rolling up a newspaper. Its magna has now tat so many possibilities here so
one of the hallmarks of your teaching with people. I have noticed this by Now- is the use of these. Illustrative illuminating raise this little cat little phrases that we use in our practice and in our life. We ve built entire courses around this, the app and these phrases come to me all the time, but they were too there is one you used earlier and another that I was reminded of that I think, are worth looking at You use this earlier, but you can skip over it, which is the aim Penn stay that you refer to, as in order to mind which is we are mine Call with gritted teeth of a pain in our knee while meditating, but It is not really my voice cuz, it's suffused with. The version in the form of I will be mindful of this in order to make it go away. This register a comment on that.
Sometimes it is, we are with something with gritted teeth. Sometimes it's without good. It is sometimes that in order to is very subtle, so it is not going to be necessary. the big signal of ok, I'm enduring this so go away. Reachable it often enough, but at a certain point we get over that more obvious kind of resistance in wanting to just very subtle levels in so it's just helpful to be aware of that. Others give you an example. So there's one teachers name is mutation. Ia, Burmese, meditation, Esta. He uses the phrase a lot in his instruction to check the attitude of the minor it. That was the.
Thing I was gonna say so it has many way too much sorrow and by attitude. It just means to check how we relating to it happening right. This is another black light effect, in other words if you yet rob this phrase, you and your breakfast, this hearing Firstly, with the attitude of my mind, right now, all of a sudden occurs: quabos there like a showing how disgusting the better or. Maybe maybe it's none horribly disgusting it might be something retarget about somebody else's might, because that is the way I went away, or here as an example of my experience of using that phase. So one time has just sitting and feeling that matters very simple common ordinary said This feeling that come in and then
remembered that question. Several, what's the added in the mind and it's not even it's not even there were asking the question for an answer. Very often it's the simple asking of the question which effects the change, and so this, but I noticed I'm just sitting there feeling my breath. Ok, what's the attitude in the mind And in the moment of asking the question, I could feel my mind settled back. From a wanting that I didn't even know, was there ever so subtle, just as I say that slight leaning into the breath, maybe a subtle wanting from more concentration or I'm watching this in order for calm, but nothing, nothing. This wasn't in in big. You know this was an elite up, Marquis
very subtle, but still there and then often just in the US. The question we can that itself is off. Is all its needed for the mind to drop back for those moments you're feeling, but without any one thing is certain just to clarify this is gonna found defensive because it isn't. I like to highlight the? U dont phantasmagoric nature of the mind, because I because funny and because I think it makes people feel better because relating to nor lies this stuff, but actually do the defrayed attitude check that we're talking about enough does do that. For me, like eight now I see that negativity, but I am almost immediately released from India because, while I didn't see that was there before it's got interesting and poof. Yes, directly,.
Please just got an thing. I appreciate that is all I really care about so so we ve talked about many phrases that far too. a whole in order to minds, checking the attitude not wanting and we'll talk about more, but a question before we go further. The way I'm flying without any. I don't have a plan for this interview, subjects making up with I go, but but I know what will and doubtingly hit other phrases in the context of in as continue this discussion, but I just want to make clear cause I I M intuitive, potentially some nervousness on or confusion on the part of listeners that, oh, my god, just thrown so many little tools at me. How do I know when to use them? What would you say to that? I can mostly her just become
somewhat familiar with some of these phrases, the ones the grass in it, for whatever reason of it? When you hear the phrase, some clicks in the mind is such as to review the phrases from time to time and then trust that the right phrase that phrase will come up. in the meditation at the right moment, so I wouldn't try to have some plan I'm gonna need a repeat this phrase. Five times in the sitting, I retired thing it's much better. Just two to become familiar sober in our minds when you say become familiar mean just like listening to the park as the others. bank hasn't, maybe even reflecting a little bit on what the phrases mean for each person in because different ones of us may resonate with one or another of these phrases. Never just intuitively. They make sense to us.
Simply to go over and ends. We do go On the on the app we do go through quite a lot of these phrases and what they mean is just to familiarize oneself, and then in a way. Let him go trust the process and I think, as reflected in your own experience, they do they do pop up in the mind, and the more that happens, the more access we have new to the possible, liberating effect. Yes, you are the sailor, but about how this is work for me, with your phrases or any other nigh sit and talk to a lot of teachers. Don't get a new use, other people's phrases, you didn't check that would well every other world Willingham on the patent at all. You know they are by the way, just injustice of have not been avoided. I haven't been able to schedule for here s what I read that what everyone anyway. My point is
at that I have had times in my practice where you and I so the way teacher relationship. Worse, I'm not explain this new The listener? Is we get on the phone every month to whatever talk about my practice and sometimes I walk out of an hour long discussion with you like a plan for something I'm going to splore in my practice in the ensuing weeks And so I will sometimes take a phrase and say: yeah really going to work on this for a period of time that one way to approach it. The other is that I've just been kind. Swimming in this material for law, enough that it is absolutely true in my experience at what you're describing of the phrases just popping into your head at it at an interesting moment. It just seems to happen, and I don't have an explanation for why did you get another way, because your first come and I is very helpful helpful if there is a phrase that
but we do want to explore for whatever reason, not because we just intuitively, relate to it or teams puzzling to us, and we don't quite understand that, for whatever reason I can can be valuable, as you just suggested, to make a decision. Ok for this sitting over this week, however long I'm gonna drop the scene and explore it, I think both both of those parties really are helpful. Thank you for clarifying the legendary stay and more of our conversation, is on the way after this better help offers licensed professional councillors specialised in a wider, a like depression, anxiety and grief conduct with their profession.
Counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love. World, questions that came in from one of our teachers. Devon hussy, who you know who is really special person- and she asked a question that I think is relevant to the discussion we ve been having, which is tell your thoughts about the legacy ethical question about the business you and I are involved in as through ten percent happier through this package through the app or whatever, through books stead. You willingly You know I didn't steal all of your wisdom for kind of for lack of a better term, a kind of a secular dharuma, you know where
are we you're Europe Buddhist Tee and yet we don't emphasise the metaphysical claims of the Buddha, We don't use a lot of at least on the app alot of the lingo is some of it, but not alive. We not we're not pudding we're not hiding Buddhism. I think we're also not deserves no Buddha Buddhist cannot graffiti all over the operating like that in his day, at a Is that a watering down or in any way a disservice to the Buddhas message? Because you know I will I com? Au quite openly call myself a
Buddhist, and yet I don't. I do have some worry about in presenting the app as a Buddhist app, because I think it people might scare people. I know it's a lot the throat you, but I'm just curious way or thought. So I make a bit of a distinction, and this is this- is totally subjective and idiosyncratic to me. So I am not suggesting that other although even think in the same way, but in my own mind I make a distinction between being a Buddhist, and Following or exploring the depth of the buddhist teachings because becoming Buddhist in one way is just another identity and the Buddhist talking about letting go half of all these identities which we create. So we
for myself was dedicated alive to these teachings did I I might Saying have said from time than young Buddhist, but I do really feels that terminology to represent really how I feel But I do feel completely committed to the fullness of the buddhist teachings. So in the question you asked yes, it is possible to present The teachings without any kind of requirements that will become a Buddhist at all, but is also,
helpful to kind of explore. Ok, are we really exploring the full range of the teachings or we exploring some part of the range? So that's the peace that I would look. I've never discussed actually with some people from the I would just floating an idea in this may be something neither you nor anybody else is interested in doing, but I was wondering whether, on the app itself, there could be a buddhist corner. You know four people. Who may not be attracted in the beginning? To that really just want to learn the tools of mindfulness in the benefit of can bring in And really getting benefit from it, but some percentage of people might then be inspired wow. What else did the Buddha have to say.
what is the full range of the teachings fix its profound in on this this this so much and so I was wondering what, if they were a buddhist quantum where that was its explicit purpose, and then people can choose to either go that corner of the EP or not. You don't give my first impression, which is I'm very open to it, because I may just think about my own progression, if you it so I started getting interested in this stuff, two thousand to eight two thousand and nine the idea of becoming a Buddhist that was repulsive. it's already know anything about it right, but I knew that it seemed like joining of religion, which I was not up for doing and by the way I'm still not up for doing it was because I didn't really understand that this is a great coat
the figures for Stephen Bachelor, but Buddhism is something to believe in it. Something to do- and this is a vast treasury of deeply practical practices for them exercise for the mind exercises for the mind in philosophy as well and great stories, and that, like savouring, our idiosyncrasies like the delicacy These they are in an hour. a community of people who are interested in taking these practices years is tons of stuff there. That I think, when position correctly is, can be very, very interesting to people who still consider themselves to be secular war. Who consider themselves to be practising Jews or Muslims, or Christians whenever because properly Understood this is just a set of tools to make you
appear more compassionate friendly person with yes. I completely agree with that. I think, just to clarify or maybe even simplify. For me, what would be the essence of this buddhist corner? Which again, is that for myself also is not about becoming a Buddhist. It's about the expression of the Buddhist teaching, yes answered for me, the essence of that corner nerve. We ever did anything like this would be to really focus on the awakening aspect of the teachings of deliberative aspects of the teaching in the deepest way
Not just the teachings which make us ten percent happier or our life more useful for me, no better more fulfilled in age me with the world. Whatever our aspiration is that can be wholesome aspirations, but not necessarily consider But what does enlightenment really mean? Now we hear that phrase often associated with a Buddhist teach, No, you got enlightened and then many of his disciples became enlightened. What's that about what's liberation about So that's the level that I think we could explore in greater and we do reference it in many of the speeches on the app I can do,
refer in one way or another to the freeing aspect, but not really far, as I know in its fullness of what what awakening really is about. So that's that's a profound aspect of the teachings and that's that's the peace that I think could be explored in greater depth. Let's do a little bit of it now for folks new to this idea of them, you know their their tempers there's. You know beginning meditated interested in the idea of being ten percent happier because it seems doable, the liberty of aspect of the practice. What does that actually mean in the simplest possible terms? Ok, further different ways of describing mad with varying levels of simplicity to it so the most pragmatic description of While we, my colleague, awaken mind.
would be the mind that has freed itself from the habits of greed and hatred and ignorance. So we're talking about the actual upper ruding of those deeply condemn tendencies and all of us, the potential of approving them from my mind, streams. So that's why That would be one meaning of liberation of awakening that purification of the mind. To that extent,. That's one way of framing it, just freeing the mind from greed and hatred and ignorance. even from the very beginning we enjoy aged in that process. So even people who are not concerned about final liberation, still in doing the practice, they are weakening those forces so and weakening the forces By that, a major you people archive
Is this isn't some mystical, but I guess it is mystical, but does not some metaphysical like moves the dungeons and drag your weakening. Just by seeing it and not acting over and over and just as we were talking of the beginning, cannot not buying into each design I guess this is very down to earth. Yes, so when we talk of The deep into the pool here, it's a straight from the yellow. Yes, not it's a different pool. Yes, yes, but as we a deeper into the pool. We start to get more and more subtle understandings of what it is that has and continues to feed the habits of
You didn't hit your delusion, so one example of that in this is getting more into some of the subtle aspects is with deeply habituated to the view of self I saw my thoughts, my body, my emotions, I'm this, I'm that it's like all of our experiences for the most part, self referential, we ve created a notion of self behind all of this experience visit. These experience are happening to me, and so we ve created this notion of self of I that's really the centre of our lives. Our lives revolve around gratifying myself, with defending it or aggrandize Anita it we're in some relationship to this concept of self of I
One of the very radical understandings that comes through the Buddhist teachings not becoming the Buddha his purchased exploring the teachings is to see that this very notion of cell phone. I is a construct, it's it's. A concept which we ve created in, doesn't actually refer to anything in and of itself, and so the deeper end of the pool is beginning to X. Law, but what the selflessness actually mean and we we all have a sense of its meaning, I'm a shallow into the pool. So we already have some taste. For example, I think if we said of someone or of ourselves. Oh, I more that person is very self centered says that's just on a psychological purse,
now at a level, but we will know what that means, and it's not sounded desirable quality self centered. So that's that's can become an experience which we all have. We can take that very experiences when, when somebody is now so self centered? They happier they make everyone around them happier. So we can follow that thread to the deep end of the pool to see that the very notion of self in the first place is a construct oh is seeing glimpsing v illusion of the self liberated it's pretty simple, although not ease,
His bow a thousand other phrase, sir. My first teach him and energy use is its simple, but not easy. The practice is simple, but not easy, Forza Complicated, but it's not easy because the depth of air conditioning, so it's livered that the idea of selflessness, his liver, active, one example is what we were talking about earlier: no, no compensation when we can see desire in the rapid rise in the mind is a big difference between feeling. It is. Oh, I have this desire. This desire belongs to me. I need to act on it to be fulfilled. That's very different than seeing that desire itself had selfless. The desired self is just another conditions habitual arising in the mind
doesn't belong to any one. It's just then arising in seeing itself with nature nature. It becomes much easier to not be hooked by it up ensnared by not taking it to be who we are missing. It is just this just a pattern in the mind, so the more we can see that selfless nature of whatever of whatever it's very liberating because we no longer binding on the bait. All of this is like a is another aid in. I like that. That idea of the Lord is a mixed metaphor of red from shallow into the deep and I was in a pool recently of summer time. Indeed, I have sometimes I like swimming along the bottom of the pool, just a gradual patty right now is that the advantage, but again you don't have to go into the neighbors. Yet again it would deepen exactly and
and that is why I am open to the idea of a Buddhist corner medical the deepened. Maybe yes right now, because it's it's not about minting new Buddhists, it's just about exploring what else is there and there is a lot. Yes, and just a word on like I do referred myself as a Buddhist, mostly because I it's out of, desire not to hide death. All I have the same discomfort with it as you do, but I'm practising buddhist method every day and endeavouring to infuse it into everything. I do. You know, I raise this possible success here as well, I'm just saying I vote is another conveniently convenient shorthand. Yes, it's always his injury and because you have to explain the people, but I'd rather do that there are people suspect somehow there pulling one over on that way, but bitten Tirzah. The F
of this year there have been a lot of critics out there who who criticized this idea of Nick Mindfulness, decide idea that something essential is lost when you dumb things down and make it simple and commodified or in our case Munich, to having a. for business built around it You share those ethical concerns, I think, is a potential for the misuse of, in always endeavours not that their intrinsic to what's happening, and so it's just to be really watchful, and there are a few different parameters. The one could look at. One is just what what's the motivation
behind doing what we're doing and with motivation, and this is a point that I make a lot with with different students or other teachers, their teacher trainees. It's not that the expectations should be that our motives are one hundred percent you're, because until we have fully awakened or some kind of saint they're, not gonna, be a hundred percent pure. There is going to be a mix and so, for example, with unlike the app many other endeavours. There could be a whole range of motivation. The motivation to really be of service to share the teachings had been valuable, allow with the motivation for the coming you'd be profitable, so those two damaged by the way employs a bunch of people. Yes, exactly that that there are a lot of different aspects and so just to look at one's own motivation and see
Which are the leading ones? Are we being led by greed for profit? or are we being led by a desire to offer employment or to help people understand the practice? Even though the other motivation may be there, but it's not the driving force, so I think looking at motivation is really important in terms of the ethics little a second piece. And I am not sure whether this gets talked about a lot or not anymore, secular, mindfulness, approach them, but mic mindfulness.
is whether or not the ethical framework of the teachings is woven into what's being presented. So I think if the ethical framework is not being woven into, I see the potential where for a misuse, the answer Here are imposing a moment because this is leading into some.
bubble distinctions that people could confuse attention with mindfulness. So, within the buddhist psychology attention is ethically neutral, and so we can be applying our attention to wholesome things to unhold some things you know and see, if what's being taught, is attention training without any ethical
framework. So then there is the potential for you know using it in the service of things that are not that helpful or actually harmful. Mind from this is certain quarters, a certain kind of attention, and at least within our particular tradition, different traditions can frame is a little differently, but mindfulness is always wholesome, which means it's a kind of attention that is not. suffused with greed or aversion, and so when it's really mine from this that's being taught rather than attention the ethics is built, is already built in, but I'm not sure that this distinction, which is quite seller, I dont, know to what extent that is really
blamed the arrogant worth diving and on ethics gazettes. Another word like. We're on seizure nor disenchantment that can come off as not super attractive or fun right, but but ethics. As I understand it, this is some would argue, quite limited, my understanding in the buddhist content. Really is actually attached or project through the pleasure centres of the brain cause doing good feels good, and harming other people yourself feels bad if you're paying attention and so the fickle guard rails. I've always found to be. I can, I feel, cut. Comfortables knows the disk of assent. Paradoxical viewing them through a sort of selfish lens. Yes, I think that generally is.
although for maybe the that the basic definition of ethics- and I know this is- would stand up, turn some college philosophy course or not. But in my use of the term. Carry the essence of ethics. Is none harming none humming of our selves, non humming of others, and so just to see what what actions of our body speech mind cause harm either to others or to herself, and ethics is refraining from those kind of activities. I would shriek of what you said.
little bits of this gets to be like a b plus there could be some situations of doing harm. But that brings us a certain kind of pleasure in the moment. So, just as one example can be all too common, so among the basic ethical precepts, even within the british teachings. There is just one example of their authors, certain precepts of refraining from sexual misconduct or refraining from wrong speech. So sometimes you know last is a powerful
for some very powerful. As one did she described that I love this said: lust cracks, the brain. Does you know I'm huge wreaking, go crazy yeah so that they could be some are really enjoyment in that honest. level, even as we're doing harm. Though I wouldn t, I will admit that, but there's an end quote the Buddha back at you, like anger, I said, has a honey Tipp, but I have a voice in Rorschach. So, yes, I do it that gossip address, actual indiscretion can feel good. but in the moment, yes, but if you're paying attention, there's a vast reservoir of pain, excessive, you on the back, not those thoughts.
I stand by my surrounded her upgrading myself back, but I still think that was the right well and so the question is: who will negotiate the screw? You can bribe the teacher ah Quite true, and I love that phrase of the Buddha anger with its poison source and Honeyed Tipp, but it's really the honeyed it can be much more apparent than the poison source. So
Yes, if we really paying attention to the whole experience, we will discover that, but often the honey Tipp camouflage is the poison source, and so that's why having explicit ethical framework is a protection. It is true that you know with enough practice. We will see it for ourselves, but to have it explicitly stated, it would be wise to refrain from sexual misconduct or being useless talk. Things like that. That's a real support, because we often a missing the harm that it might cause. Yes, yes and and- and I think that the. true, enlightened self interest? You know I love you dress is you can live a whole lifetime?
Bathing in the honeyed Tipp of you know just doing all this stuff that feels good momentarily day trading through your whole life right and veal, I guess I guess happy on some level, but there's something up reading in the mind, none the less it is creating pain, whether you see it or not. If and enlighten Self interest is to widen the land so that your capturing it all and realizing nano there's been pain here. All along that I haven't noticed like a teenager, wearing braces, who is acting like a jerk, because Sheer he doesn't know that actually their pain from the braces, one of the things I love about the buddhas. You can often trace everything back to the pleasure centres of the brain. It feels good to do this stuff, no matter how counter to it. If it may seem at first.
oh that now I want you to argue with. I am I'm hoping to be, and I learned what you said is absolutely true. I might just now I M on playing with you. I might just tweak the phrase instead of enlightened self interest, how bout enlightened interest. Because, just in the words we use in the terminology. on some very subtle level- and I wouldn't says her purpose just in using that language. It can reinforce the sense of a selfish, whereas it could be helpful to see that both the pleasure and the suffering, Our impersonal, for neither one belongs to yourself. It's just you do this, and this good feeling that comes from you do this and is suffering
comes from it and none of it belongs to a self right. We I agree with you, it's just that, as you know, I'm an inveterate salesman and performer, and so I'm coming from yes, public presiding, yes, marketing, W C feels type, a situation where we are after ride. This word hoard all the way to we need to ride the flood horse. in the door or in other words, where I got a remit. Is self interest are out to get you in and make you realize that there are no horse and resolve and no Santa Claus anywhere, but right now, that's fine! That's why to have deepened. Yeah. Ok, you riding the self interest horse into the field, and then you start exploring the field in a deep away out. There's no horse but there's no self right worth its interests to guess. Yes, good examples. You said awhile
about motivation This is something you and I have discussed in the past, because when I get visibility on my own motivations off very humbling and is for all of us to know to thank you sometimes I feel like uniquely honourable every one time I called you after after my three sixty review at listeners may remember. I had a three sixty review, people in my life, given anonymous feedback on how do out of various levels, and it was came back about thirteen fourteen to go- and I was devastated by the results- and I called you- and I see the kind of exacerbates this fear I've had that I'm just irrevocably rotten. I was really like opening up to you and you laugh in my face which was actually the wisest boots,
All of this, because I was really cell thinking, there are no illegally in this story of myself, whose one hundred percent anything so yes as having said that motivation. Is such a rich areas to play with and so on? I try to be mindful of my own motivations about the outcome of the whole temperature enterprise. You know: is this just some ego a trip, I'm on my right, you're gonna, make a bunch of money will what's going on here. What am I really trying to do? and there's a low when I look, there's a lot of stuff in there like to see, There are seven there that makes me really like, as as emotional as I am capable of Ghana. So how do we work with this? How do we look at? How do I haven't really figure exactly how to clearly see true,
what's going on here with my motivations and how to feed the better angels in these situations, hegemony advice there give you a few examples: when I noticed the range of motivations in my own mind, because back in a fifty years or something to my to my India days when I was just getting into the practice, but I've been doing it for a few years and then in the hot months in India, those of us who are practising we got to them in on the plains and India we got to the man, speaks parties and really hot on the plains. So we rent is very simple cottages up what they call the hill stations that seven thousand feet. So in this beautiful view of the Himalayas beautiful surroundings, and because I had been practising for some years, then
A lot of people new to the practice, so just for the small community of Western is who will living up in this little hill station. I would give it talk every week and this big before I had become an official teacher, there's just trying to share wanting to share my understanding as far went so every week. People would gather my little cottage and sit on the lawn and give a talk and then I noticed that every week before the talk, I would start counting how many people came this week. Five people can next week ten people came out, but then only seven came watched the omnipotent, like until I'm Heinrich just be doing that? So at a certain point, it became obvious to me that that's what my mind was doing anything don't hit. It's like every week count how many people were there, but I saw clearly it didn't bother me that it was their because I've
It's not feeding in it. I wasn't acting on it. I wasn't condemning it. I wasn't judging it which is simply another way of feeding it. This is what people often don't realize. So then, just seeing let alone that might state might, for example, wonder whether very redeemable exultant exact instead of just this is just a bit rule thought pattern. It comes doesn't really are different and a sound, and so when we can relate to the unwholesome motivations that were seeing in that way we will not identifying without buying in, and we not condemning ourselves and not judging, we just seeing clearly and let him come and go so then they don't have much these less than wholesome motivations. Don't have that much of an impact
and I'm not saying that with totally freed from them. You know it's still may be part of what is actually motivating us, but it's much diminished because with seeing a clearly will not deluding ourselves into thinking. Oh I'm I'm doing this totally from pure motivation. I think that's much more problematic than than actually having very clear, honest view of what's going on, because then we actually have the ability to see it and let her go if we're not seeing it like an underground stream that keeps influencing us in ways that are not even aware and solve these teachers abusing their yeah. This so many, Let me give you another example of mixed motivation, which was very illuminating to me again,
goes back to my early days in India People have been ever, they know this. There are a lot of beggars not just on the street, I was I was in both Gaia, which is small town but with the Buddha was enlightened, so's unit important place, and I was just in the bizarre buying some furred and this little beggar boy came up. His hand was out, and so without without much thought it all. I just. we can argue that I just bought and gave him and was that if what's in that had the thought, oh, I'm being so generous, nothing like that is very ordinary. Justify our engine gave him, but then something really interesting happened. He just walked away without any economic adjustment whatsoever, not a smile, not a nod. Nothing.
I'm not registered it's like, and I certainly was not expecting effusively thanks for the average, but in the Alps of it. I realise that there was some. Little hidden motivation or wanting somebody amateurs even something really, small, like a nod of the head, and it's an absence. I said earlier that motivation was I didn't I would never have even realise there was there if they hadn't in the absence of it. That was just really interesting to me, but I didn't It wasn't I got down on myself for it, it was interesting for me to see it, and so that's the quality that we can begin can bring to this exploration of motivations,
there. You just described a couple of situations where you saw something mildly, embarrassing and and and treated with, not condemnation but interest, and that is a way to de condition. I may be humor, yes, humor humor and but it then then you're not feeding it majority, but it doesn't metastasize, the mind. That's actually, why you're doing the thing that, because every with me, and we talked about this before. Oh quite bed. We know with my various endeavours it's not only that I want to see when greed or self aggrandizement is coming up in my mind, but also the two to feed the more positive. Motivations to really me- have your seller, I had met our thou wilt. How do you we so one of the things I like about uses phrase minutes talking to Jack Cornfield.
What are things I like about Buddhism? Is you are kind of taking your better angels to the gym, right and so in motivation. You know four, I think about for myself what one of the things that I've tried to do, and I don't know if this would fit with your advises. Do I get a lot of feedback? You know app review Sir people heading on Twitter or Amazon Reviews or whatever, and I've looked out when somebody says. Oh, you know the sap changed my life or somebody comes out to mean says that I love you is like, oh well. Maybe this half is gonna, be really successful, because This person said that, instead of actually taking in what, person might have been really unhappy and this work that I've done in conjunction with many other people, without whom none of this would have happened right. So this, group effort which is satisfying in and of itself and actually should be highlighted as a positive motivation. But is mattering in the individual lives and to take that in not as
Grandpa thing, but is like oh yeah. This is why we do this thing this rich, I'm using not that the most important person the world here, I'm not trying to set up all the oxygen on this question, but as example of how to highlight the positive motivation with that. it with what you're absolutely has held the view. Another example of an application of that principle, but in a slightly different arena, So one of the medications that we do- and you know areas on the app as well- I think it's just the meditation on loving kindness And I a way of cultivating that particular mind set and feel I just wish him well for people one the conditions for loving kindness to arise is focusing on the good qualities of people. So there's a particular way of pay.
attention when we're with others that give rise to this feeling of kindness and appreciation, but often I have with his foot. Guessing on those qualities and people who d that are annoying just the opposite of August. and the good qualities. There is often a tendency for the more difficult qualities to jump out of us and that's what we're relating to, and it is clear, is interesting and amazing. I my to see what happens. I'm just being aware of those tendencies in the mind and then to consciously wherewith. Somebody who's irritating us in some way If we can remember this interest to take a few moments and justice- the weather in that moment, or maybe later for a girl. This person any good qualities and almost
everybody has some good qualities and making a conscious decision to to focus on that. It is quite amazing how that changes, how I feel about them. You know it's and MRS obvious at least conceptually, that when we do focus on the good qualities and people, it's gonna make us feel good. We're gonna feel beneficence towards them. So that's one way of choosing to direct your attention to a particular set of qualities are experiences circumstances so the same thing when people
Appreciate what they may have gotten from the app from the teachings to see the range of responses that may arise in your mind, but then to choose to focus on exactly what you said. Oh this is great. This really help this person live their lives in an easier better way. So it's not that the other motivations or thoughts and not gonna, be there, but it's what we choose to emphasise would choose to pay attention to and that choice is very empowering to realise that we do have that choice. That's tremendously empowering pics than women, simply subject to the whims of our habitual conditioning. In terms of how we relate to people and what I found is that
It actually has made my mind much less judgmental about people much more useful and appreciative by one takes his voice. Maelstrom wirelessly we gave them are the package we have. This group of arrogance as people who we call podcast insiders who have actually volunteered to give us feedback every week and its incredibly helpful and sometimes hurts tests to read the feedback but really Tell me that we do a better job in us. Do a better job on this work, so we ve, given those folks a chance to ask a question, so I want to get to that animal rap, but before it had just because again, I am always trying to hear the questions of the listeners that they might have. We talk before about liberation, enlightenment. This is a question you and I have discussed many times, but
are you would you call yourself enlightened? It's really interesting that question comes up at different times. And it's it's taken me a while to figure out the response that fields most comfortable to me once, but I find it did come up with a response. I'm someplace on this spectrum awakened me. My lads Spectra were all on this best around. That's very Rita, further than you were when you start yes, yet if fifty year fifty years ago, now fifty five year right. You, Sir Medicine, we are twenty one. Twenty three twenty four hour, cakes of fifty two years ago, just celebrated every fifth birthday, so love that far
I'll. Tell you why you may think that's a bit of a fudge, but it's really not, and the reason I feel like helpful response is because as soon as people start making a claim of alum. Now, I'm unladen them at this stage of enlightenment or whatever it's just a set up for a huge amount. Of projection, one way or another without having any basis for assessing the truth of it. So I mean people have all kinds of self expression their understanding of their own.
Stages of enlightenment or awakening Lord whatever it is, but we have no way of knowing, but just to claim an identity in that already. So all this person's this persons in line so then maybe there's a lot of deference, or maybe they may say that, and we think can be in line with a jerk ends, one way or another. It just sets up a whole field of projection, not based on anything not based on anything. We can verify. So that's why I think, just entering into that whole field, not at all helpful and the Buddha he Ashley there are discourse is where he talks about how one should dress. You could say ones, understanding or attainment, and he said- and I really appreciate this discourse.
to talk about without reference to itself, but but Dravis rather talking about it in terms of what is understood, of course, though, he called of the Buddha read the old heavy awaken. One he's entitled so these are, what other people and I think the really helpful so what one could say. You know that in the EU it can mind. One is free of their view of self and so when one is really expressing an understanding, not not a claim, and I think that's a help. It's just a healthier, a healthier approach, and then it gets open for interesting discussions about the teaching rather than about some self self claim. Will would one way to phrase what you're saying be: look you ve been out of this
fifty two years, and why aren't you further? Along with you are you're glad you did it and it's worth doing in the rest of us consider walking as far as we can on this path. Based on your experience will certainly bad, but I think one could go even further and talk about the kinds of incidents that have come along the way or could this is what I understood. You know over all these years of practice and be sharing. Not only do the formal teachings of the Buddha book ones on experience, do you notice that greed and hatred and confusion arriving rising less for only then they were now a couple years ago of decades ago. There, I would say that, and I think Maybe even more, there is bad, but also more
aware of them when they arise. So the mind gets really more finely tuned to whatever sing and also there is There- is aid diminishment of those of those habits which cause suffering, but it's a gradual process, its none. Is it. I will say it out of his comments got up. Maybe me into this. This common may bolster any sense of self it remains for you, but I have observed in many situations up close and working together. Keep you haven't you. Taught by you being a retreat with you being at social events with you, and I don't see a lot of agitation them all the times, I Do you get a little intervene it is when you're tired, or you're you may feel, love they use. running low on energy as easy, you're you're a little bit uncomfortable. But it's
I don't know I mean I am always on guard for like when we get to see the dude crack, and I know it doesn't feel performative to me at all. Just feel like this is what happens when some of them may be nature rather than natural, but I think the press, This seems to be cause. I you describe it offers. The younger man is a much more energy and new discoveries of as a child is prone to wild. Return trip, so I don't see any that sometimes, as you get tired, I may have is one image in my mind. I want my wife and I walking into there was some gathering of the buddhist glitterati. here in New York City was because I was a fundraiser, for social matters, and it was very noisy and I was walking In my life he had chosen. I left their Magnum Drama and why we round the corner? We see this big room filled with eyes people are on these tables and there are some dry
obeying ceremony, going on and you're very tall, and I could see rag and able to live with, and I could see you standing midway through the room with their eyes closed, trying everything, that's a pretty, as geez, I see you go, has to clarify it. Wasn't so much the tune everything out but to what to drop into a less reactive rest base to it. Ok, just hear hidden Esther but they are quite right. I mean tiredness is definitely, as I said before, desire is like, when the Energy is law, one is more prone, Give you another example of kind of very apparent easing of my mind,
over the years, a practising in my earlier years of teaching I could get into some, I wouldn't say he did but forceful dormer arguments about DOM points that I felt very at tat. To my view, point thinking that this is the right viewpoint, and people should understand its at how get into these arguments were friends like these diamond discussions, but very very fast, you and SAM Harris means him and others not limited, of course, with SAM herds. It was equally we shared could have happened. Why deserves a vivid you guys are flying retreating did you unerringly, her good out for more strand is like a thirteen, our
and I see over the years I am so much lighter in how I hold any time of and jests. in recent years. I find I don't. I don't get into these kind of dogma arguments that we be having discussions and pretending various viewpoints, but I've really let go of attachment to my view, and that feels it so much more nothing more fun. No were wrote a book that I recommend people recall one dogma in which he lay it seems like in some ways the combination of this effort to relax around saying. Look there to one of the phrases I like to use it. Once you start talking about enlightenment you're. In an argument because they all these different. The buddhist schools have these different ways to talk about. This is a view that concepts chain are contradictory in some ways and you,
this book, one during which I really loved, which was about trying to serve walk us through how you reconciles Edith these differing views. Yes, ok, so enough for me, I think we have a little time to take if he has our energy level that but you're you'll know when I started grumpy illness of arguing the bags Miranda in the corner. do you mind putting these headphones on, so it can hear the Clayton let's do voicemail IRAN, I there they could lead to New York City and the pact there better, and I am very grateful that you have my voice. Thou o. My question is about my informal mindful of practice. I worry on practising mindful that technique. Few much up the cushion
and then I'm missing the present moment. For example, when I noticed my mind wandering when walking, I ll attend to the feeling of having feet and when I noticed and judging other than the subway, as which my intention to watching my natural breath, I feel like I'm, making these transitions dozens of times a day and the process of catching myself all day long can be exhausting. Is this company movement from recognising suffering and attending to something more skilful, actually pulling me out of the moment or is this the practice? Thank you. So much and thank you for everything you do then you're in Britain and a positive influence on myself and on millions of others. She's? U turn
Let me not. You have noticed how try not to take it personally. So where did it s a really interesting idea very interesting, so I think that one of the causes of perhaps the mind from his fatigue in other was being described, was the sense of, Redirecting the attention to something else, So you know Canna lost in thought and then ok, let me come back to the breath. Let me come back to this And so moving the attention back to something.
that, if one is doing that very frequently during the day I could, I could imagine it feeling tiring as so? This is that this is a subtle difference. I think, but it's what came to mind as I was listening to the question and it would be an interest exploration is when one finds the minds wandering in one has awakened from it as well talking about earlier, instead of the mind, jumping back to some other object of meditation. To actually rest In the awareness of the awareness, that's like we ve, lost in thought and then all of a sudden we wake up. We don't have to, move away from that moment of having awakened being awakened member just open to whatever's arising match only in that momentum, and so first we
become aware- and I would emphasise this to become aware of the sense of having awakened from being lost, just as we were talking earlier, but then to really be real accident, simply to be open to whatever is being known and might be just seeing. We wake up from being lost and we're walking down the street, and then we're just back. the whole field of, what's being seen, or maybe it's the sound, but without the sense of directing the mind to anything in particular, but rather being more receptive to whatever is presenting itself, and I think that might take that edge of effort away from those moments of of reconnecting.
we are reconnecting with being present with without any choice its choices, open awareness to whatever's, most obvious in that moment, so that can backing a very useful. It's just like going from being asleep in the thought to being aware, without having to do anything specifically just to rest in the awareness and notice. What's being known, sometimes the phrase it's already here, yeah, but. in terms of the awareness that that vat can just be the reminder to relax into that receptivity. I've of I initially heard that phrase as it's all right here. You can also see as its all right here, all of them accurate. I give you- and I Let's do voicemail number two.
Many of the unemployed from Washington D C. I wonder podcast insiders element. I wanted to ask about this concept of spaciousness, but here the lot in your pocket ass, an in different talk about I'm from this investigation- and I can understand and other conceptual another tool level, but I dont know they still enjoy if they find out what is meant by that. I dont know that I get the idea that he thought of fear disguise your binding. The clouds are, you thought a cloud that pass by, but I find myself thinking so much about how to get. It then feel very scores, but I dont know if the spaciousness, what if you like, you need to know that I'm doing business. My practice, why set out onto the very from person to person, specious, buggy, going to be different?
business for you or for somebody else, and I guess you know, though, is the presence of the lack thereof. This feeling of faceless and my practices sign or a market where I M in the practice done it does it come, more practice understanding more from experience, the appointed an intellectual standpoint, I've been just practically just over a year now. I would like to hear your thoughts on this I appreciate everything I don't want. That cannot go on now understand how much disappointment to me and my wife, and I hope, the legal rights of adaptation and the other was into the guidance and everything is meant for me. So I take it back back and I'll keep. I must beg
the question and the kind words now somebody who can actually are concerned there is a lot in the question is this could be our dormitory, which it won't be so interesting question first to just addressed. The question of how I might tasty experience of spaciousness you to get some sense of occurred what's being referred to by this word. I think one of the easiest ways to settled into that feeling is through
Meditative listening just using sound at as an object meditation, so it's just to sit back and be very open and simply let sounds of here and disappear. You know in in the awareness that creates a feeling of spaciousness, because it's very obvious we don't have to be doing, Anything in order to hear if our ears are working. Sounds or in the environment there going to be heard so because it doesn't take any particular effort to know the sound another way hearing, it's actually quite easy to relax just into that quality of openness, a spaciousness of mind
the image of the sky, I think, can be a good one richest settled back and the sounds arising in passing this generally easy with sound and with thought because for the most part, sound. Unless there are exceedingly unpleasant door exceeding, a pleasant. It's pretty easy to be quite neutral with regard to hearing There was just a sound coming and going and without a lot of re activity in the mind, and so we understand, spaciousness as being the lack of reactivity, Can I just say something think may amplifier point. I think this I'm a cop. I might have just made this up myself, but after hearing you talk about the effortless of where do you sometimes will say, move you wave your hand slowly from one side of it, how much effort
therein, knowing the sensation. I actually use that in my practice, as little mantra, especially as they I notice, maybe M leaning into hard trying too hard. Just listening, and then you see my God does it just happening. I All this, knowing of he here your feelings have just happening. The the me feeling is just a the thing arising in this soup, and that is that really makes me feel spacious yeah. Now I've regrets that. That's another good example, and something that I do like pointing out and people find it pretty easy to understand the how a simple movement can be no You know, without without any big effort which is moving our arms and feeling the movement threats,
I would be another way of dropping into that feeling of spaciousness. So this there there are different levels of exploring what spaciousness means. So we are talking about. Is one level of just dropping back into the mind space of being aware of something, that's really simple and he's supposed to be aware of. Like sandal, like the simple movement you know of our alarm, but on a deeper or a fuller understanding of anxiousness. It really has to do with what I just mentioned, the non reactivity of mind, and so it's possible to be spacious. in a certain way, even when the mind is cluttered, if we,
if we are mindful of the cluttered mind so Everything always thoughts are going through and on the surface it might seem a long way from spaciousness, but if, in fact, we understand spaciousness as meaning just none reactivity. then we could be non reactive to whatever's arising. Would. We could be non reactive to a perceived lack of spaciousness already here. It's already here an end, but that We we often miss that because the mine can be focusing on the content of what are rising in our the fact, for example, that there are four
what you're carrying away rather than focusing on how we relating to its rising. That is. Are we caught up in it? Are we averse to it? Are we just be it with all the thoughts as if their sounds through so how we relating to it s happening in a week is a more significant measure of spaciousness, then a mind free of thought. Which is a tone that its own feeling, especially since, but it's not a limited to that and so I think we can really practice getting a taste or a feel for a spacious mind by focusing on the relationship to whatever happening in an practicing as best we can, the non reactive being with whatever it is
and so this is one of the benefits. One of the tools that we ve talked about in, I think you use in your own practice at times is that tool of mental noting We simply make us a simple mental note: a label of whatever it is a hearing. Thinking seeing an image pain We were just noting the very gentle whisper bring kind of way. In our mind, just acknowledged of is this is this? Is this that mental, noting really is a method for dropping into that non, we active spaciousness of mind, thinking, thinking thinking when we're doing that, we're not being tossed the bank by our thoughts, but it doesn't mean the forts aren't there. Thank you for answering this question. Thank you that insiders for asked,
questions at this is the point in show where I talk about how great it was to have you here again. I always mean it when I say that, but I mean it especially this time I was Do you know what you do is come become? I hope not. I hope not something people feel they have. To say when they leave the voice. Males about people say, and I thank you for what you're doing whatever. If listeners you appreciate what I'm doing, this is the guy who helped me, do it and gazed out me do it. So I am very grateful to on many levels, not just from my coming on the passport for being comprehensively awesome. It's been a pleasure. Ok, big! Thank you to Joseph a couple reminders. Repeat myself from the beginning of the show we ve got up honest, meditation from Joseph coming up, and if you do is that will land in your podcast feed. Another is don't forget that event, I'm doing if you're in the New York City area, if you feel like travelling December fifth, it's a Thursday night registration now, open or elsewhere
Imagine mention that my friend Jeff, worn with whom I wrote the book meditation for fidgety sceptics, he's hosting another meditation for fidgety sceptics retreat, which is now to be November twenty second through twenty. Fourth, it's in North Carolina, there's a linked to that in the show as well. If you like, what we're doing please share twitter or text, the episode to your friends or a group of friends, great way to help us grow and were always looking to do that. As always thanks. Do the team, Ryan, Kessler, Samuel Jobs, Grace Livingston, Morn, hearts and liked to Bosky who records of late. frozen out years when I do them on Saturday mornings, and I totally d I am from doing his regular work say. Thank you MIKE. I see you and a couple days with Joseph Meditation and then after that on Wednesday, a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona
I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who were sitting up. Every day. This is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our ten, and these are America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going from damaged and even worse, I she went back to my office inside crying because it's not fair hearing here, making sorry that our community smiled faintly moraine. This is essentially inside the from the urgency by the police cruiser to the Czech outline you hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves
no one's way, there's always a risk that I could breathe is home to my kids. Are my husband or my parents? Listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast revision, podcast him.