We are in the middle of a giant, global experiment in remote work. Even in the best of times, working from home is tricky. You're surrounded by distractions: pets, laundry, Netflix. But in the midst of this pandemic, WFH (as the millennials call it) is even harder, given that many of us are cooped up with our children, cut off from our coworkers, and overwhelmed by anxiety. Our guests, Rasmus Hougaard and Jacqueline Carter, from Potential Project, are experts in bringing mindfulness into the workplace. In this episode, we explore solutions to four major problems: distraction, isolation, virtual collaboration, and balancing family life. Plugzone: Website: https://www.potentialproject.com/ Books: https://www.potentialproject.com/books/the-mind-of-the-leader/ Rasmus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rasmushougaard/ Jacqueline on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelinecarter1/ Other Resources: Ten Percent Happier Live: We’ll be streaming live on YouTube at 3PM ET every weekday. If you miss us live, you can catch the episode here at www.tenpercent.com/live or on the Ten Percent Happier app. Full show notes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/rasmus-hougaard-jacqueline-carter-232
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier vodka in her, Everybody hope you're doing ok, situation sucks, there's no two ways about it: and I know everybody stressed and because of that stress fear and anxiety that we're all feeling myself included as I mentioned on Wednesday, were now making this podcast Bi weekly, so you go twice a week of every I've, never know whether I weekly meant every other week or twice during a week and any in any event, I mean we're going twice a week, so keep it here for four much more from us, including this episode today, Wednesdays and Fridays. Will posting the other thing we're doing at the ten percent happier company is live, guided meditations, video on Youtube. Every week day at three o clock, you can join us at ten percent, dot com slash, live up, Lincoln the show notes.
love to have you tell her nobody. You know the goal of these sessions is to give you, but to give you a sanity break in the middle of long difficult days. For most of us and also to create a sense of community when many of us are feeling cut off and isolated, and I think I think we're succeeding at both, but we ve also a survey up on the EU to page that you can fill it fill in and let us know how you think, we're doing. Ok, today's episode. We are in the middle of a giant global experiment in working from home, which is- and I can now say this with the personal experience tricky at best, our guests- today, just like our guest on Wednesday, when we talked about parenting in a pandemic, our guest today offer a real mixture of practical advice and genuine wisdom.
They have identified for areas that we should be focusing on when it comes to upping are working from home game. One is distractions, family is the second one. virtual collaboration, and managing feelings of isolation. Our guests are Erasmus, Hogarth he's the found or in managing director of something called potential project, which is a global ship training, organizational development and research firm busily what they do. They say they help leaders and organizations, enhanced performance, innovation and resilience through mindfulness and other practices grounded in neuroscience and research. They work with big big companies like Cisco, Lugger, Lego, Accenture and Microsoft. Also with us is Jacqueline Carter, she's a partner, appetite, a project energy also runs their north american operations. She has a masters and organizational behaviour spent many years
working in major corporations. Hence she spent the past ten years helping corporations in bed mindfulness and other practices into their data daily life. In other words, these are two people who know what you're talking about. I also happen to like them. A great deal in your ear to your, why they're they're very cool, I should also say Dave Dave written a couple. Bucks together. One is key: one second ahead and the other is called the mind of the leader. Both of them are about the issue of of mindfulness at work So one last thing to say before we get started here, we're working on our audio quality. I think it can be much better today than it was on Wednesday, but bear with us. If it is imperfect here we go rascals, Hogarth, Jacqueline Carter. I think a great way to start, perhaps would be I'd, be
interested in hearing from the two of you about how you're doing in terms of staying on point in your professional lives, in the midst of a really chaotic and confusing situation, as requested and for us, it is not so strange organization is. This is, is digitally, are virtually native so we are always working from home and ass if we're out with lines which of do a lot. But all the work that we normally do has not changed in that's crystal working from home meeting with the same people and soon we use this. No, no new new business fast enough, I think that what I would say, though, is of course, as everybody is so aware of the increasing that the stress and frustration that so many people and suffering that people are experiencing an I think for us.
it's really a call to action. This is work that we ve been helping. Organisations and individuals build resilience and create more clarity in common mind, as, of course, you have as well, and we just even need now is now more important than ever, and I think for assets it sir. It's a real call to action for us, but I understand, though, that you ve been working virtually you ve been pioneers in this space, but there's now this for a of what is going to happen to our world and am I gonna get sick or my pet it's gonna get sick it! Well, we are we entering a recession or worse. I would imagine that seeps into your mind streams as well. I think we'd be lying if we said it didn't, and obviously like any other business. We hit by this served by this crisis, obviously but I do have to say the way that our teams have dealt with. It has been a very
calm and very compassionate approach, so we have basic emission of bringing more peace and more compassionate the world through helping organism be more clear, minded unfocused and it seems because we ve been practising this Many years I mean all of us were three hundred people around the world that really have paid off in this crisis. People seem very calm, very forecasts, and even more purpose, driven about getting our mission in into the world. I think maybe down also an aspect of that, and it is because this is part of our culture. But it's the kind of thing where we have a culture where
I can say damn it are you ok, you know do need to take a break. You know you seem to be struggling a little bit and that's totally okay and permissible in our culture, because we know that sometimes we need to take great. Sometimes we get overwhelmed or we can check in with each with each other in terms of things that were dealing with outside of our work lives. So I think, because it's so part of our language, around distractions around taking care of self. It's actually it's it's it's again. It's it's kind of business as as normal for us let me stay with you ve jacket for second, because I your based in the states right. Yes, yes, but you are in Copenhagen right now, because you got stuck there because they shut down the they locked breathing down what care at your over there for work and they locked everything down to now, you're stuck away from home having you also work in a different time zone with, as as reference before this sort of
Overhang of uncertainty in the world, so as you're going about your work, yes, you have a culture that well wired to deal with this, but still it that's a lot of extra added into the system. Definitely challenging and at the same time I think that from a practice perspective down, as you know, all we can do it What's happening right now in this moment, and so for us really is about using the practice in this moment of crisis, to be able to make sure that we are focusing on what we can control and doing our best to let go of those things that we can't and just especially for ass. Just paying lip service rest was, you know, have an extra houseguest. Did she say view and- and this is all going on and on, and again I are here you loud and clear, on how you ve been helping organizations build resilience into their system. So therefore, you have it in you in your system and yet a challenges it Alan shall just curious. You find that you're trying to stay focused on your work at all and there are in invasive.
thoughts that you have to have to have to deal with force our invasive thoughts and and and unfortunately, when the robber hits the road you get to experience. If the practice is a real work than I We feel that it has worked very well. I'm not worried about the did. The actual decease I mean in the end. Most of us are gonna, get it's over the next few years anyway and moving about all the honesty order like looking out over Copenhagen from where I'm seeing on seeing all the shops and the cafes and all the while, the people that are going, you know going going bust over the next two weeks. That is wearing a lot and, of course, also the impact it has on our own organisation. Wishes was a worry for a few weeks, but not so much because now the world is real
I think that resilience is the most important thing and with a sheep, prettier pretty overwhelmed with a response from our clients and unknown clients looking for resilience to to support their people saw no. It is not that I am also worried that personally, ok great I'm glad to hear that you guys are doing ok, given the circumstances. So, let's, let's dive into you very helpfully, came up with four subject areas that what you want to tackle, as it pertains to virtual work, distractions, virtual collaborations, family life and the feeling of isolation. Let's start with distractions and and Jackie one you when you go first, I'm I'm I'm sorry, I'm happy to go into that bet, but actually done before we do. Would it be okay? If we just ask you the same question, how are you coping with being virtual when dealing with with your family life and other distractions, that your facing does, of course here in the middle of it to write so
yeah. It's a struggle. I lie up the avenue usual situation for a number of reasons, one. I do go into this video on Saturday and Sunday morning to do good morning, America, so I do get a lot of human direction then, but the rest of the week by myself well this week have been really by myself, because my wife and our son had been up at grandma's, placing upstate New York, and so that has been. You know, I'm really, ah my own, so there I have been dealing with less. You know a distractions in terms of my my kid running around. the house, while I'm in meetings, were trying to think, but there are feelings of being disconnected and I but it is useful that my company, ten percent happier we do a ton of video chat, and so that's that's been useful. I have also been in the EU. he's getting together Ivan eighty five year old neighbour and she's. It
did in learning to meditate, because you get a lot of time on her hands right now, so we ve been meditating about twenty feet apart in the hallway endings. That's actually good for both of us. I think that's really been my only face to face interaction, and also I will say that, in terms of distractions, I find myself struggling with checking twitter, obsessive. We ask how it is one of the most power in full thought patterns I can see in my own mind, is how many I do. I have on my most recent tweet right that is incredibly painful mine state to be in I've raised so there That's happening, checking the news happens or just being sucked away for trying to work out one thing being sacked away by my emails. I notice because it all on the same machine right here in front of me on my desktop my work and In the end, the inbox, the pets are distracting. We have three cats and I you know just naturally knots great
being focused and then I would say at an office counts as a distraction, but that just the anxiety exam if you don't know what is it, then what what? What is your anxiety about will this could be? We could do Our on that list, through the bushes here on the table here I would say my anxiety- is about a lot of his economic. You know, what's gonna happen to my business, what's gonna happen to you, I have to companies that I would for ten percent happier than also ABC News. What's gonna happen to both of these places? What's gonna happen to people I care about, then there's the anxiety about you know: I've. Elderly parents are they gonna get sick, as my elderly neighbour gonna get sick, my kid gonna get sick. So there is a lot to worry about. Well, maybe that's a good place to. Can I get into the context around distractions in science sense. I think that, and you know that it's like we are naturally distracted beings. The science says that were distracted, almost half of our waking hours, which is actually a really good thing from them
the perspective, because it enables us to be able to make sure that our mind can respond to threaten our environment, if we were so focus that we can hear the fire alarm, that would be dangerous for us. So in some ways it's been a good that our mind can be distracted. The problem, actually in our current environment, is that there are so many threats, now in our environment, that we're just overwhelmed with distraction and really experiencing for many people on the state of mental paralysis, as we're just can be overcome by those fears and and for a lot of us in terms of those distractions. We have to ask ourselves is great to hear you talk about. You know, maybe the news, and maybe the twitter feed were actually rate now being set kinda things, but we may think are important. Like do. I really need to know how many more cases or in my local area- maybe I do Maybe I really don't and maybe checking that may or may not be helpful, so I think, from a science perspective, what we're really seeing is an overload of of our brain in terms of our brains, ability to cope with those fears and anxieties from a distraction for
fact it. So. Yes, I get that there's an overload and we may be need to give ourselves a break, because we should recognise that there's an overload, and yet we do have things to do so. With any, let's get detailed about how we can actually do the things we need to do given the unchangeable nature of the situation, so that there are three things that in our work for clients over the past few weeks, who are experiencing this time as three things that seems to be coming to it's up, the first one which prove a recommence. Anybody is set up the mindfulness practice, and I know this sounds self serving ban you're serving mindless the world, so we but mindless practice, really the practice of learning to let go of distraction since they focus on what we want that we are more intentional about how we work and can actually get stuff done. I think a mindless practice should not be seen as just some esoteric. software, we think that we are doing in our private life. That's actually pretty important for performance.
Well being resilience and innovation, and in these times that I would say that is the first thing that the second thing is really really practical is to switch off all notifications- and I know the old trick, but most people still haven't it's so turn off. All notifications on your outlook on your phone on every digital device. That can distract you and now then you talked about there is the social media those Twitter Instagram whenever he shut it down while you're working, because I should just like I'm gonna going to get work done and then the lasting that we face. Is that multitasking. We know that multitasking is the mother all evil when it comes to performance and well being and everything still we all do it's and so try to stop or diminish the multitasking a little bits, especially because when we get home and, as you said, there's a cat, how nice a pet the cat, instead of doing the email or the conversation whatever.
There are so many more things that this practice, one grand home so stop multitasking be more mentally disciplines about staying on task frustratingly. I do. a lot of pretty much everything you recommend, and yet I still I dont have notifications on, and yet still go check, my email just because I don't want to do the thing I'm supposed to be doing right now, you are human. Just imagine if you check your notifications, how bad it would be exactly and- and I think I think that first of all it is- I mean- that's totally natural. I think that then it really and especially now. I think that we know that people any that's enough habitual in terms of things that maybe you're used to doing that. I think that What we need right now, though, is to recognise the sense of urgency around that, because, before when your checking your email, you know it might be
something good? It might be something positive, but right now what were saying is alarmed at times when we're tracking, certainly no twitter, certainly checking. The news is not positive, and so it's gonna bout that impact that is having on the brain, which is actually creating more. Society, more fear and more worry. Then we need to, or that is helpful for us to be able to actually perform and get the things that we need to get done. Such just be even more diligent about not checking things that you don't need to right now and again that sounds ease, But it's just critical in this in this day and age right now, in this crisis, we need to be even much more disciplined. So let me read you this may be a little redundant, but some of these are just good. Will be good for you to hear and it funds funds I went out on Twitter and said here we go together,
twitter, but I went out on twitter and said: hey I'm interviewing the next person. Can you send me some questions and I just had a lot of questions and I'll keep referencing them through the course of this, but on the subjective, anxiety distraction. Let me read some of these to you, so some of somebody with the handle state of South Bend road. How do you be saying, but also, how do you focus when your cuddly dog, who research has proven, will improve well being, is begging for attention and you know playing will feel better, it's hard to focus on work and it's the crazy and balance self care cell. Soothing. Let me just read a few more than you can respond on mass. This is from sea L. Finding hope and purpose amidst the turmoil and tumult and being other centric when engaged virtually any and all help is appreciated and then Laura coping with the inability to focus, along with the unknowns of continuing to submit proposals and work on projects
While worrying that there will be no way to get the work done and sorrow, images you one more, how can you focus on being productive in every fibre of your being is distracted by an intensified? of existential is a man the non stop pouring of bad news from social media right. In the end, it comes down to it anything more or less. It's all about managing the mind right. I mean by this to kindly dark or is the fear and anxiety coming from all the media, It's all about managing to mind and that's again, why the work that you do and the work that we do of helping people to manage them a little bit better is so important, especially and accentuated. In a crisis like this, we had a weapon are at the service money just a few hours ago, with some seven hundred people from around the world, and we had this, sir, is worth cloud looking at. What is it that people are experiencing right now enough, the dead, but that the biggest ones were anxiety and fear and worry concerns all of those people. I just
very, very emotional loaded right now than when we asked a question. What one thing should you stop doing? That would help you to feel a little bit better and I think sixty percent of them road stop watch the news and that's bad thing to say: sorry, sorry desire them better but it is my honour, our newscast, the animals tat night, I don't work, is obviously Marianna S. Sorry, not ABC. No, but people are obsessive, be checking the news for the light latest fatality numbers and all of these things and is not helping us to learn to manage ourselves to stop doing that and spend more time with a dog less time on Twitter. That would be my. and may be tempted to make it also really practical again, you know this and I am sure most the people that are listening know this, but it really is now is the time were you really see how going to the mental Jim actually sitting in practising what they practice for five minutes or ten minutes or whatever you do, but use
there and you know before: maybe you were distracted, but now you can sit there in the practice in the mental Jim and you see worry, you see, fear you anxiety and, of course, as the practice, depending on which practice your doing in that moment, but the best one is just come back to the breath. Let it go release, relax return, let it go keep on coming back to the breath and as hard as that is in the mental Jim. That is the training. That's gonna help you get through the rest of your day, because those thoughts are going to continue to come up as thought bubbles, and You were gonna stay focused on the work at hand and the people that your with you ve gotta, be able to train the mine and have that mental activity to be able to let go relax, release return to what you're doing so. Let must draw down on that for certain judgment, because you you ve talked about, and I think this is a mistake. This is gonna, be a useful, bit of sir I'm gonna get a little legalistic, but I think this is gonna be useful for people, because you ve talked about how we eat more discipline right now,
And that applied applied, as I understood it not only to taking yourself to the mental Jim, but also when trying to do work really shutting down all the other distractions. But when I hear the word as one and I think, a lot of other Taipei people here discipline we, our inner drill, sergeant, comes to the fore. We start beating the crap out of ourselves, you know- and so what I hear from this, but you have set it explicitly, but I think you ve really set it implicitly in its worth, highlighting that will there is a gentleman this here there. There is self compassion involved with both in the practice of of meditation note. You known- to focus on one thing notice when you ve gotten distracted and gently starting again. and the same. What I imagine you would argue would apply to doing your work shows a mixture of discipline, but also
some self compassion. I think that's actually true, once heard a great interview with a dilemma was asked. What is discipline- and he said discipline is an advanced form of self protection. It is protecting ourselves from. Are you know, lazy habits so that we get done what we need to do that we tend to the things we should attend to in a very carrying way, having, as you say, self care and compassion for us. Discipline Stephanie, not that you said that the drill such a better sooner telling you now stand up, but it is a strong sense of self care and self protection. yes, it s. Essentially, I totally agree that I think that, right now we need to take care of ourselves. It's like one clever you go on and on an airplane and not that anybody spying on aeroplanes. But you still remember the mantra that says: put your own oxygen mask on first right now,
in terms of compassion, it really does need to start with south and the reason why I would say and time that this idea of discipline, a gentle discipline, is also around going into the mental Jim and allowing ourselves to really have moments of pause in our day or weaken, tune and take stock with what's happening in the field of our mind, so that we can, really start to see what's helpful, what's unhelpful and it's really about enhancing our awareness and and then Why, then, the next thing is to realize that we can make choices is checking. My new speed is checking twitter is checking. This is checking that are those things,
to us and the more that we can, I think, tune into our own mind. I think that then you know this idea of discipline. It actually becomes quite natural. It's like ha wow. That's not helping me right now. I don't feel good right now, because I'm actually engaging in more activities that are helping may be more aware, and that's hoping you take better care of myself and now I'm actually better able to take care of others. So I think the strong aspect that I would say back the practice is cultivating a greater sense of self of self care and a greater sense of awareness of self. So you can take better care of yourself. Have to put our own oxygen masks on first here, and so I've been thinking a lot about that. I knowed it so not last night, but the night before I told myself a story about how United Break and I stayed up until midnight watching What about that? I knowed it so not last night, but the night before I told myself a story, about how can I deserve a break and I stayed up until midnight watching Netflix and then
I didn't get enough sleep and I was a mess yesterday at last. I die I put myself to bed early and I resented it, but I feel much better today and so that, and also I've been really disciplined about working out everyday and so actually I'll read you another tweet that came in from Brad Stulberg who's. An author has written a couple of books, one called peak performance, the other called Pat the passion paradox and he's a coach for folks of similar issues that you guys are. He rode here to me on twitter lots of gems are making the decisions. To close. I think that is a very hard but ultimately wise decision. The worst thing we can do is sit at home on CNN all day. Movement is key for physical health. I'm glad he said Santa not ABC, and movement is key for physical health in mental health. So I would imagine having its we're talking about this. If we're trying to stay on distracted, productive, focused that it's not just about going to them than a mental, Jim
but it's a but going to the physical, Jim, finding a way to work out even lower in sub optimal circumstances, absolutely, and I think whether it's out just even one of the big things, and maybe we can look at that in terms of looking at in a how do we set ourselves up in terms of from a virtual environment? One of the things would be: no. Do you have a space in your home where you can actually work? Do you have a separate space where you can actually exercise in? Oh, do you can you? Can you reconfigure your house so that you can actually have fit for purpose spaces so that our when I'm here this is actually a place where everybody noses when I'm working and not everybody has that luxury, depending on where you live in this as your house, but really, I think, be creative about creating spaces that I'll help you recognize. Ah here is where I can actually do some stretching. This is actually my plays for working out, offer no just be or or a course in place for four.
Experimental Jim as well, that I totally agree with you. Physical activity is so important for all of us. Did you talk about space and I think it I'm not all women, especially for those of us who live in New York City. We a lot of us, we don't have space, and so would what do we do, how about that, because many of us enough you're apparent- and you don't have that much space. This is a really hard moment. I'll, just read you another tweet from Jacob necessarily have a place to go, or even if you do have a place to go. There's the guilt that your work that you're dealing with at that's a great question and and and, as you said in the beginning, right now who were cooped up with kids and I don't have a necessarily have a place to go, or even if you do have a place to go. There's the guilt that your work, that you're dealing with at the great question and and and as you said in the beginning of these four area, that we need to manage one.
Being family life. We can maybe move a little bit into that's more common and answer at least a few ideas of up your question. But I think in first of all, the context is that it is obviously incredibly confusing for everybody, especially the kids, to have parents at home working from home, does that mean that available? No, it doesn't, but then what's so, it is very confusing in, and research has shown that units technology in the room where you have your family life is making people feel distant from each other and like if you're, looking at technology. While your kid is trying to get your attention, it is the same pain ass. He sat there face, so it's a pretty pretty difficult thing and I think also for couples. It is generally very confusing Sunday at home and whose and get the kids from
nine to ten and so on. So a few things that that we're advising anyway that the first one is on the self care that you have talked about already. If we want to show up as a good parents while we're in an effective employee or leader. We need to get sleep. We need to get exercise. We need to have time for those things so back to the self care, really really important, the second thing is, and even if you live in New York but to try to separate your workspace from family space, even means you're sitting and working a closet or you're working in a separate corner, the living room or the kitchen or whatever, but that you have a boundary that is, this is works.
and then when I move even just two meters away, then I'm at home. But there is just that physical and mental separation between where you work and where you, where you live, and then to make those expectations very clear for the whole family. So I think it's important to sit down and talk about what do we do we're in this apartment? And when do we do what, in the time that we have together as long as we working anyway, so basically self care separate workspace and boundaries and unexpected Maggie expectations? I went to add one more thing that may or may not work for all people, but I do think that again, I'm I'm always trying to be a silver lining. Can a person I do think there is us something that we could really leverage in terms of our colleagues like the fact that, in a we're on this column, weren't is the first time even by but ass to your hometown- and you know, if your kid streaked across the
back I mean it would actually make me feel more connected to you. So I think that there is actually an opportunity for us to use the fact that, yes, we have kids were all managing this we're all in this together and actually too may be in all. You no doubt Maybe if I can't really I'd like to introduce you to them and then I'll see them I'm talking again and now you know, I need you guys, don't be over there, so that I can finish this conversation. But I think that that would really help us to build some of their the connection that often times actually in normal times we don't necessarily have connecting as human beings in terms of our Our whole lives. I agree that is an upside and we're seeing that I'm seeing that allowed in my work with folks from ten percent happier that the kids are coming through, where the cats are coming through amid the or the animal, the dog or whatever, and if it yeah makes it it's it's nice and if it does feel like you're getting to know people better in this way, but back to bouncing family life while you're working. One thing that seems potentially really helpful here is to have
a routine for everybody. Gonna be on twitter asks. How can we set up a productive routine? What are your thoughts on that? I think that it really depends on. Of course, you every family is difference in our fur in offer people that have young kids like another five year old, which were mentioning it's very different than people that have teenagers. So I think that it does and that's why what Rasmussen sang around it has to be a schedule and it does have to be open here is when I'm available hears when I'm not available and also working that out with the other adults in there. In the family environment, an unreal
Again, it is back to this word that I keep on bringing up, but I do think it does have to be pretty disciplined and structured and I think for us to just assume that we can manage without having a sense of boundaries and expectations. I think that that's actually what creates conflict intention for people to the more that we can set in other more, that we can set those expectations and boundaries up in advance and then learn from it and be very flexible, because we're gonna all have to continue to flex as we as we go through this process and getting back to not only self care but now may be getting into being really each other cause. I'm gonna mess up and we're gonna have to make sure that we can support each other through that, and I think that kindness of your referencing there really does start with yourself that it's it's this, cynic, one on in some ways that it's really hard to be, as I am possible, but is much harder to behind other people when your inner weather is really mean others.
Parental reign in there, and so I think, getting into the habit of giving yourself a break can help you give other people a brick absolutely so this is a mixture of we ve moved for were kind of jumping back and forth between two of your buckets one being distractions, the other being family life and those two or overlap in many significant ways. But one of the things that I found about being home, that is difficult. Is I'm not surrounded by my normal work? Cues, my boss is not here, and the laundry is baskets overflowings I feel like. Ok, I should go do that and also the tv that I normally watch on to relax. It's like right over my right shoulder as I speak to you, and so it's it's a it's a target rich environs.
And for four distractions in a way that my office isn't, and I would say that's that sounds like a problem right, maybe see it as an opportunity at work. We work a lot of work most of the time unless we're getting distract by things we shouldn't get distracted by at home. When we get distracted, it can actually be useful. Things like engaging with your kids, like putting your cat or like giving larger done. So you have a little bit more time in the afternoon or possibly you extend your working day with an hour but is basically more conducive for giving the brain the break. That brain needs to be effective throughout along if you do the laundry or who take time to just cooker equipped lunch raising the official just rather than you'll just he did and you're done and you're over is also welcome. Some of the positive unintended implications of working at home. It's not all bad, and we shouldn't see it as that deadline. Had this isn't it you and I Jaclyn just got into the classic conference call issue which is we both started.
At the same time, can I just ask a question, because I am dismayed: just is maybe where you're going with his jack- I don't know, but to me it strikes me that the the key thing is yes, cooking, as opposed to opposes grabbing in the cabin rain eating at your desk can have salutary impacts or stepping away to do something that gives your brain a break like folding laundry as I did you Today, however, I wonder whether your advice would be to do it in an orderly fashion, because I was stepping away. At any moment, I got frustrated with my work and it just felt like I was frenzied Edison absolutely I would say- and that's I guess where I was going- was I think that yet it again it's just a really watch is this? Is this a good opportunity to be distracted? This is a good opportunity to take a break, a good opportunity to shift your focus
it is because your find it- and maybe Ashley in your case, if you were frustrated, then maybe it was actually a good time to go. Do the laundry because maybe the next, you know that you're gonna write would not have been a necessarily kind one. So I think it gets back to again. The ideal approach would be to pause in the moment and say: ok, I'm tempted to go for the laundry am I tend to do that because I just wanna be distracted or my tempted to do that, because I really need a break right now, and this would be a really good thing to do so back to that awareness, peace so that we can make better choices about what to do next and to make it even easier for us off. Then you mentioned the structure, the download upon the door up or just use a normal timer and put it at forty five minutes this. When I work and then there's fifteen minutes, for falling laundry or doing other things so just being structured about it's? For you not wandering in an out all the time
That's very useful. Is there are there more things you want to say about family life? In this current contact out, the only question is how we use the boundaries with kids, sand and spouses, but I still haven't figured out how to do with my cat I dont know done if you got any any any experience with that. I have a lot of experience with cats. I have no successful experience with getting. I'm cannot not be distracting I'm the only those crossed my mind is literally locking them in a different room which may I may have to do for cats. Now these cats are them these cats, animal spoiled animals in the world. They were rescued from the streets and now live like incredibly plush lives. Yet one cat Toby, whose very kind very well intentioned but part quite aggressive, and so I stand at I ever standing desk. He will sometimes jump from the floor to my shoulders digging clause in hang in. This is an cat, so that's all
out of body weight hanging off of those claws, and it's very surprising and painful when he does that, or I know he's standing behind me and Noah standing behind me and it's going to happen soon and I can't work cuz, I'm. I know something. Bad is going so I may actually ere. I know a lot of people are worrying about this. What do you do with the pets? I guess maybe we have to go that are lacking in the other room, I'm just sitting I'm waiting for I'm looking forward to the moment when you have to start anchoring good morning Amerika from home, and you have one of those situations the cap on your back up up up. I think the audience would love it. I think so sure, I'm afraid you remember I think the CNN reporter, who is the kids came in while he was doing some CNN scene and remember: can members name, but it's just fantastic everybody's got sympathy for him. Then this is a great I hope there will be more of them coming out of the out of this crisis. Maybe a name.
Say that- and this again may not be easy for everybody, and I don't mean to belittle people's experience but having a little bit of a sense of humor. If you can, when you can and an that's, not always easy, but we do know that if we can laugh about it, I mean we We ve seen some some great examples in New York. I dont know if you know the jewelry store in downtown, that's actually selling roles of toilet paper, wrapped in gold ribbon for forthcoming. Nine hundred and ninety nine dollars, and it comes with a free diamond ring, and I just think that now that the brain actually like laughing- and I mean we know that the right now there isn't that right, is a lot of suffering in the world and if we can find opportunities to connect and maybe sherry than a small joke, it can be really helpful. Far from a brain perspective to settle astounds, I think trying to keep us. I can rise ass. One point one of the thing on family life: that's and we're going to dedicate a whole pack has to this soon. But what are the part of family life that we haven't really talk about? We talked about setting up her teens, making sure there's
clear communication about boundaries, and you know and a lot of that has to do with managing the kids in the House but what about with your spouse, because this is or your partner? This is a real challenging time whether you have kids or not you're in close quarters. Together, you ve got your all the stresses of your work, life that are probably or if you dont, have work. That's an even bigger dress, and on top of that, you ve got a pandemic. So any thoughts on on how maintaining harmony with your partner, Can I help you stay focused network suggestion sitting and pointing at Vietnam, pointing at her. Nobody wants sends the question, because I guess that is the impossible question. I think again. It has to come down to strike, her and communication. I mean you need to be much more deliberate about how you collaborate as a couple breast
When will you know, that's easy because you only come home at five or six p m saw then you're. Both tired Europe works as much easier. This is really where not only your relationship is tested, but is also waken relative all of your relationship, because suddenly robber hits the road and you need to work on being together in a constructive way. So again, I will try and see it as an opportunity, even though I totally accept it is a big challenge. I will get back to the need now to be kind to each other. The need now to have more chickens, we need now to say at the end of each day. You know the right today may not have been the best day, but let's not in or less not go to sleep mad at each other. That say in own. Luckily, we still have each other and so to really make more rituals around. I know this is tough, I'm doing the best. I can. I know you're doing the best you can checking in being kind and really being much more. explicit about it, because it's it's the only thing, that's gonna get us all true. They do and, moreover, conversation
is on the way after this better help. where's licensed professional councillors specialised in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief connect with their profession. Counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor. You'll love Forget it we're working our way through these four serve buckets, but that you helpfully provided as the structure of this conversation I teach remind people, they are distractions, virtual collaboration, family life, isolation. I, one. I dwell a little bit longer in distractions, because I think, but judging
by my own mind and judging by what I'm hearing on on Twitter, this seems to be issued number one at least the most salient and peoples, how'd you right now. So let me read you I've, a bunch of questionably start with a question that came in the twitter from Amy Bryson Background music, slash, noise or no does help or hinder the ability to focus were used to noise in the workplace and a lot of people where headphones, but his quiet better very simple answer. If you are starting to sing along to the music than you are probably distracted- and it's probably not helping you, but if it's actually creating white noise and allowing it would be more present more focused and it's probably helpful to you if individual for some people, it's a huge job for others is a distraction. So go figure out the software work for you back to
directions. Another question this is from me. We make we had some fun earlier with the issue of not watching the news, but I I might in this is you can judge for yourself. What do you think is the self serving and not, I might say, tie trait your new consumption. I do think we need to know. What's going on, we need to be active and engage citizens, but you don't wanna, be compulsive about how much news your checking you're, not in your head, absolutely IRAN's yourself, yes and at an and if we were to be fair about yapping responsible citizens. How often do we need to check the news rob with your answer. Be then, be a responsible citizen. How often do you need to check the news right well for me, it's a little different, because I am in the news, so I feel animal. So you know we know leadership position at a company and I want to be able to communicate clearly to our employees and to our millions of viewers. a b c and listeners I want.
Really deeply understand what's going on, but I would say for the average person you know I would say an hour a day of watching in reading, makes about and I'm pulling that out of the hat. But that sounds about right. I think it's also to really- and this could be a whole another topic which is not an area of expertise, but I think it's also be very careful about what news feeds here, you're getting and because of course, You know some are, can be not helpful in terms of perhaps misinformation or How do you actually consuming knew? So what are some trusted sources of news that you can rely on that? You can then, actually just people to tap into feel, like you're, informed and then be able to out. There was a major establish news. Organisations are better than your uncle on Twitter, yeah alike, abc I just want to throw that. My first, I think I've heard is reporting on the sands greater death about in Copenhagen. Point about the one hour, but there's one hour
half an hour or two hours. I think that doesn't matter so much what matters is. What are the doses, because if it is a hundred times one minute, then your mind is poisons you're, never pressing with anything you're doing so. If you have to check the news, then do it and do it in a good chuck and take the time for it, but the problem is that were checking all the time and then our mind, just becomes very anxious that various dressed. I agree to a quick comment that I want to move on to another question, but when it comes to news consumption I suspect is not unlike background music, in your advice there was you have to gauge for yourself how much you can't, whether it's good or bad for your brain, slash, mind and for news consumption, if you find it, you easily get overwhelmed. That I would, I would argue, probably sit down and if you can handle it and feel like actually feel better to no more than then read more. Let me just go back what, with that, we have a couple of the other, a bucket that we want.
Dive into like virtual collaboration and managing the feelings of isolation, but on this issue few of distractions, wheat. We talk a lot earlier about the balance between discipline and self compassion, and I have a note up in front of myself that I wanted to come back to that a little because, as you said, you know we will want to have a certain amount of discipline, but then will we notice either. After having listened to this whole conversation tomorrow, we may notice that I listened to Jaclyn Erasmus and Dan Talk, but you know I was trying to proposal, and I then found myself fifteen minutes deep, contains diagram, and now I'm beating myself up to ten oh that that's still gonna happen correct that you need some sort of self compassion. So that brings me to my question, which is: how do we develop that? How do we do? How do we take ourselves to the gym,
herself self compassion- and one of the things that I always like to say is mindfulness is a practice. It's not mindfulness perfect, and I think that if we I think that we're gonna go out and always be perfect in terms of the way that we manage your mind were definitely in for some disappointment, so I think for fur assets. It's really about making sure that when we set ourselves a good intention, ideally in a sudden self intentions for the day intentions for the meeting always coming back to what are my intentions? What do I hope? What am I am aspirations for how I want to show up and how I I support other people are be present in this meeting and then really have a sense of kindness around. If I fail at least my intentions were good, so if we always focus on having the right intentions,
the fact that the outcome may or may not be exactly what we wanted. At least we can hold ourselves high our head high in terms of saying, but my intentions were good. I did have that intention and I think that bad, at least away for people to be able to say- and then I can try again- you know I can take to and that's the way the brain works from a neurological perspective is to be able to require to change habits this time I'm gonna be kind kinder than herself on that journey. Is there a practice for setting intentions Zira, something you think we should do?
during our day and in our mind, in order to set those intentions. Why would say that, in our simple things, in terms of what works for you, the air, like my typical way of doing that, is that I do set myself intentions for the day. So, as I start my practice, I always actually set myself an intention for the practice than when I finish the practice. I set myself intention for the day and I think it's really about starting to to really figure out what works well in terms of yourself and offer me when I start a meeting its about sending my intentions, and actually this is actually may be slipping into virtual collaboration. We actually within potential project, but we do when we work together, as we actually set a collective intention. Okay. So what is our collective intention for how we want to show up in the meeting today, and it can be a simple as I want to be very present, I wanna be focused. I want to make sure that were keeping the bigger picture in mind in terms we're trying to achieve so. It's really individual at also context specific. Does that make sense it does, but just stay and the individual level when you you
just driving into it from what you were describing earlier, that you meditate first thing in the morning and both set an intention for your practice like made the typical Buddhist when is met. This practice benefit all beings, but you may set intentions for the day at the air you have your meditation practice, not all of us meditate first thing in the morning I dont actually, unless their special circumstances but it might be. I've heard the advice my friend and former podcast guess guests. Kelly Mechanical has argued that mean The thing is: when you open your eyes in the morning, you just lying there for a second, if you can remember to set your intention for the day right there. I absolutely agree with that, and I think another good practice is to close the day with a little bit of a gratitude exercise. So, at the end of the day, reflect on one thing that I am grateful for and to have that as a way to be able to close the day in a way that you, in all its despite the challenges that you face, that you are one thing that's that's was was good in your data, which could
about yourself. It could be about others, but it's a nice way to be able to close the day of rest was any further thoughts on how we might develop the skill of self compassion, which is so important when it comes to which is, important, bouncing factor when it comes to discipline and extraction a few thoughts about it. And also maybe related specifically to the crisis that we are experiencing now. Where, because of this crisis, we're being asked being isolation and there's nothing more frightening for human beings than to be in isolation. That's like the prime driver for us is to connect socially with others, so its green out of anxiety and distress and depression for people to have to be on their own so having a strong sense of self care in that is really important, and so they were into the bucket of of managing icily But there are few things that we feel are here from a lot of our times. That are important is first of all to remove
I just hope that you are not alone in right now. It is literally the entire planet that the suffering both from the same virus- and the same excited coming from the ripple effect of the virus and another thing is because we are social animals, basic resources. Animals is hard for us not to be, connected to others, and while the media's is blasting a lot about creating it, that's an assistance, social distance, that business has to be physical but not emotional. So what can we do to reach out to others? What can we do to connect with others really being much want functional about when recall our mom that we do it on video, rather than just a phone conversation reaching out more to people s. You talked about sitting in
and meditating the Europe we are already neighbour honour on a good distance. How can we create connections in the time that is completely disconnected, and then I think the most important thing for self care and take care of ourselves, and this is actually take care of others, because us as research has shown again and again. If we want to be happy, we have to focus on making others happy one of the studies that, if we by ourselves a treat in this bar, that's gonna enhance our happiness a little bit for up to eight hours. If we buy that spar treat and we give to someone, we care for it, increases our happiness. Never for eight days was literally twenty four times stronger. To do something good, for others had to do something good for ourselves, so back to Jackson's intention, the more we can set the tent and execute on bringing compassion to our actions and reaching out others. Are there not feeling isolated?
I hope you will be so. I think the best way of soft compassion is also caring for others. Yeah I mean the Dalai Lama has referred to. It is wise selfishness if you want to be happy. The best move and scientists supports this is to spend your time thinking about the well being of other people that that will make you happier and therefore it is a wise form of self and I can even see improved set asides aside, I can see a playing out in my own mind as referenced earlier. I notice how painful, mind stated, is to be upset over how many likes my latest tweet may have gotten, as opposed to the actually really sort of place in my state? I notice I mean when I'm running in Erin for my neighbour, because it's not safe for her to go out with that's that. Actually, I feel pretty good. I feel energized. It's an elevated statement,
and just seeing that comparison doesn't mean, I don't regret to Twitter, OECD, but bud. Oh it's useful, because I can inclined my mind more towards the ladder and I actually think again. I think that this is an offence has to offer Turkey for us to look for ways to connect with our name, there's more so than we ever have before you. Even if it's just whipping notes under people's apartment buildings and sang, are you ok? Is there anything that you need? I have some time have some extra toilet paper, whatever it might be, but it's actually a great opportunity for us to get really creative began. I think social socially. We do need to connect, but we also, I think, fundamentally, compassion is, in our nature, its what makes us uniquely human- and I think that now is an opportunity for us to really all come together and are in a really ugly, powerful way that will be able to attend. after this crisis, together anything else to say on this issue of social,
isolation. Before we move on to a related topic of virtual collaboration, I wouldn't you say just a real warning label on this. I I think we're very concerned about people feeling isolated. We ve already had before this crisis an epidemic of love. They nest around the world and so on Now more than ever, people really need to get out there and help each other and make sure that they connect people aren't just sitting there what Netflix all night alone in their room. It's ok to take a break sometimes, but I really think that we really need to be even more strong and firm about social connection because we need it now more than ever. That's easy to forget that it is a basic human needs impacts and why We're locked in you may think. Ok, I have all the provisions I need. I I'm gonna be: I'm gonna be able to write this out at me. There's healthcare nearby if I needed, etc, etc. But a lonely human
back on the savanna when we were evolving was likely a dead human, how we have profound physiological responses to loneliness and it you know I if this is a pie cast about productivity. if your body is rebelling because your or socially isolated you're not going to be productive. So if that's, what it takes you to get socially connected, then go for it. If not thing do, for the the squishy reasons like there, the gooey centre- ok, so let's I'm sensitive restless to your time. I want to talk about virtual collaboration. When are we I let you start talking about it then we'll? Let you flee and will finish up talking about it with Jaclyn has that's all you are being so incredibly complex and kind, I hope, you're feeling good in this moment. Thank you very much for your welcome, since I think that the challenge that that that people face with virtual collaboration is that most of our communication is actually happening through with four through Bobby.
With our body is how we look in our face all the things that are not necessarily the words and now suddenly we're all face are forced to work virtually which mean more Emil's, more phone conversations and invest case, video conversations and that, just as the brewing platform for lots of misunderstandings, lots of conflict, a lack of shared focus and a lack of social cohesion. So basically, teams are at the risk of deteriorating under performing and just being unhappy together. So there's a massive case for really being intentional about how you up it s a virtual, tee and then Jack and can share some of the tipps of how to do that, and then I will not off in the meantime. Thank you so much, then. Ok, let your negative Yang! Thank you. So much
I appreciate it will continue a jack. What exactly is rather sad virtual collaboration is not easy. It's not our natural orientation, so it really does take effort, and I think that a couple of tips- things that we ve seen to work really well together, is number one to practice together and again that may sound again squishy, but for us, what we ve seen is there is real benefit and being silent with each other. There is something that we in Aachen can cause when we're talking. Of course, we get distracted by the words we get distracted by things that I mean. I don't know what you're saying when were silent together we can actually be truly present and even in a virtual environment, there still the sense of taking a collective breath to be able to support each other to be able to have a sense of command. So together, is something that we seem to be extremely powerful can be just one minute, so it's just a really nice way and one of the things that we often recommended starting each meeting at it doesn't have to eat. I say it's mindfulness, but just starting each meeting with a moment of silence to just let everybody collectively arrive tipping
the two would be to really look at how your managing your meetings. So are you again back to this word discipline in? Oh, do you have a clue your honor. Do you have a clear structure in terms of how you are going to manage it issues like we had earlier who's gonna talk. You know at the same time those kinds of things, and I think that in a virtual context you need to be more disciplined abroad that one of the things that we strongly recommend is having no other devices on during meetings, and that can be Ellie challenging because oftentimes, while I will say I will often have my device in the only the only it'll beyond silent, but if one of my kids calls while then I will take that distraction, but I said that expectation up front that that's ok, but for all other destroy, since I have to be fully present so really having some strong guidelines around meetings to be able to manage in a virtual environment, because it's tough, the third tipping is to really leverage the opportunity to be able to have open space so have virtual copy breaks and
and two in Aki use. Whatever platform you use, maybe be people and say in all I actually this is this is when I have open, often open open office hours, so just come by and just drop in so again, really using the technology as a way to be able to not only get things done, but also to be able to enhance connection. So we took
yet happier we do virtual lunches together we're doing a virtual happy hour Friday night, and we also even before this started. We were setting up coffee's bit that rotating coffee time with colleagues who you don't get it we found some app. I think it's called don't out, or something like that that create that creates. Virtual did well dates for people. They were gonna, be in person dates, but now there virtual date and were keeping we keep doing this during the crisis is a gives people face time in and in an unstructured social way. That, I think is gonna have a positive effect absolutely, and I think that it gets really leveraging elaborating the technology, because the technology other can be a distraction forces they talked about earlier. That is amazing things.
But we can do in terms of technology and being able to connect so really leveraging in one of the other things I would say just around the technology. Is that a lot of, for example, different platforms, whatever use in your organization, but we really encourage making sure you know, use the breakout root function that you have it use the whiteboard use the different features to be able to really encourage interaction. Don't just run it as if it was the same as an in person. Meeting. There's actually really cool features that you can use from a techno the platform and leverage them. What about is give any thoughts on sort of conference call etiquette how to treat other than how to behave. Yes, Yes, we do. We actually work in many of the organisations that we work with. We actually work to define those because, of course they can be very unique for the organization. They can be very unique for different departments, but it really is is around conference call etiquette you're. One of them is in rules around boundaries around whether devices or honour off additional devices
obviously, the not one that you're connecting with and and also or mean all around. You know things things like is it ok, if I need to, if I need to step out, is it ok for me to do that can actually call back out are their permissible distraction so that I can actually make sure that I can have that space to be able to say I'm not sure if this particular content is relevant for me. Can I just step out and come back in so again, really being able to have clear communication around how we're gonna manage our time very effectively? I think what happens to a lot of people is that they just end up there. Their reason why their distracted is cause their board. What's what people are talking but is not relevant to them or they don't have practices like if I feel like you're talking too much or I'm talking too much. What's our agreement in terms of power, I share that because, if I'm just talking and you're not enjoying what I'm saying any more than were both wasting our time, so I can. How can we really have good communication and good conversations about how we support each other, because that's really what virtual clever
it is all about. But how do you keep that in mind? I mean it seems important to keep in mind that if you're on a conference call with joy the audio, then you really don't have data about how what you're saying is being received any, video, you have more data, but it's not like being in the same room. So how do we conduct ourselves in a different way, given that were weak, really can't know as as well as we could in person about how what were saying is landing? Yes, the key thing is to first of all, we always encouraged video at its possible because it is at least that better ability to be able to see people. The second thing is that you need to take more breaks, and again so say something pause and then maybe do a quick pool. Is this landing well and my speaking too quickly? Does anybody have any questions? And again we don't need to do that when we're face to face, because we can see if it's landing, we can't
and then, when the environment in all our brain actually knows whether or not this is resonating with people. When we can't see people and were at a conference call environment, the tendency is, I'm just gonna keep talking blah blah blah blah blah. I can't see anybody, it's a monologue and we need to be able to call ourselves on it. Take more breaks in your check in what, if you're a junior employee has a lot of these a lot of what we're discussing his sort of ethics people who are running the call, but what, if you're a junior, employee and you're on a call and you're just don't know how what you said landed or you don't know how you feel, but something somebody just said, one thousand five hundred fifteen seconds ago, you have any thoughts on how one could go about getting clarification skilfully. Why was it one of the things when we're working with leaders? We often talk about the importance of psychological safety. One of the things we know- and this is pre crisis, but still definitely relevant today- is that if we as leaders,
that we have all the answers we are in trouble. No leader has all the answers today, so I think it's really importance for leaders to actually give people permission, especially in this context to actually say up front there. There people hey, if, if I'm talking about something that isn't relevant for you, are you have questions? I really want to encourage you to be able to raise that and then, of course, the first let somebody does celebrate that immensely. Thank you so much down for raising that point. That was excellent. So it's really about creating a culture of psychological safety. I think for the junior employee. I think that that still in or depends on the culture of organization, whether they feel safe, doing that, I would really encourage them to do that, because nobody rate now has time to waste. We need to be able to all support each other as a team, and I think at least what I've seen people that have been willing to take that risk and just ask it as a quest can be curious. Don't if you come up with. I think this is a waste of time that may or may not now be received very well. But if you come up with curiosity,
I'm not sure that this is relevant everybody would. It makes sense for us to at least check in. I think what we missing anyway in those other people, but I get, I think, that's a future leader and our organization here. Somebody that's actually helping us all to be more productive. There's been a great conversation, from my standpoint is, is there something I should have asked but didn't, but that is occurring question I mean they're, so many things that we can talk about. I, I can't think of anything specifically. I think that they may be. The only thing that I would say is getting back to this idea of that's really come together for all dealing with these challenges, regardless of where we are in the world. What organizations were whither what our personal situations are, and I think that the opportunity for us to have more opportunities to talk about it, to be able to share experiences and really learn from each other. I think the key.
The thing that were saying is there's a lot of real innovative and creative ideas. Creative ideas around how people are taken care of each other, which is really cool. I think how people are being creative about work, and I think that just the more that we can share that and celebrate that. I hope that will look back at this and will be one of those things will say wow. That was such a challenging time and look at all the great things that came out of it in terms of how he took care of each other and supported continue to get work done well said may be so. Thank you very much. jack appreciated. Thank you down and thank you for everything that you're doing great work. Big thanks to Erasmus and Jack when I really enjoyed that China go lot out of it. It's gonna help make me so around the house. As I work on a personal note, not personal to me, but personal, Jaclyn, she is going to try to get a flight home to her family. She, as as was can she's been marooned in company
in her families back home in Canada. I erroneously said they were based in the states, that's where they used to be based there now, based in Canada, she supposed to fly home on Sunday, so please route for her And a reminder that they ve written a few books, you might want to check out one sex a head and the mind of the leader before we go I remind you, dont forget to check out our daily life meditations three o clock Eastern every worked day. Ten percent dotcom slash, live. There's a Lincoln show notes, The final thing say is a big special thanks to Samuel Johnson and also I am Kastler and Josh Co Head, who are doing a ton of extra work to get this podcast out to you twice a week in difficult times. So thank you to them. Thank you too, you for listening and hang in there There's not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona
I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who were soon.
every day. This is my Monday last day of the cylinder stretch, photos from one about these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new programmes from ABC News you gonna hear from damage. Was she went back to my office on cybercrime because he is not here and making sure that our community hostility smiled faintly Lorraine? This is the essential inside the from the emergency room, the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves norms, which is always a risk brain is home to re. Kids are my husband or my appearance, listened to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, river podcast him.