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#246: Losing Your Patience? Here's How to Get it Back

2020-05-11
This pandemic is a colossal test of our patience - from dealing with family to interminably long wait times on calls with the unemployment office to just wanting this whole nightmare to evaporate so we can go back to the movies. We've got a special, two-part episode this week. In the first part, we bring on a pair of researchers who study patience. The good news: they have found that patience is a quality we can train and develop through meditation and other strategies, including cognitive reappraisal, transcendence, or just learning how to fake it until you make it. (Side note: we also fall into an interesting chat about the benefits of defensive pessimism versus strategic optimism.) After the researchers, we bring on legendary meditation teacher Sharon Salzberg for a deeper dive into how to use meditation to increase our patience, especially when it comes to interpersonal stuff (which, let's be honest, includes other people and ourselves). Our patience experts are Dr. Sarah Schnitker from the Psychology and Neuroscience Department at Baylor University, and Dr. Kate Sweeny from the Psychology department at the University of California, Riverside. Where to find our guests online: Dr. Kate Sweeny / http://www.katesweeny.com/ Dr Sarah A. Schnitker / https://www.baylor.edu/psychologyneuroscience/index.php?id=950614 Sharon Salzberg / https://www.sharonsalzberg.com/ Other Resources Mentioned: Wendy Wood University of Southern California (Habits Research) / https://www.marshall.usc.edu/personnel/wendy-wood Richie Davidson Research on Pain and meditation / https://news.wisc.edu/meditation-expertise-changes-experience-of-pain/ Walter Mischel Marshmellow Test / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment Additional Resources: Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide Free App Access for Teachers, Healthcare, Grocery and Food Delivery, and Warehouse Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care Get more focus and clarity by bringing mindfulness to your company with a team subscription to Ten Percent Happier! Visit tenpercent.com/work to learn more. Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/patience-246
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the tent happier vodka in her right was do one item of business before we jump into the episode, spend half of our working lives at work. Actually, now we're spinning based our whole working lives. Many of us at work, because our home is also now are we given all that, could you and your colleagues use a bit more focus and clarity will implement it. asian help everybody get along better, whether its in person or resume? We are now offering teams subscriptions to the ten percent happy perhaps if you run a business or fear the head of people or a jar,
at a business, and you want to buy a bunch of subscriptions something people have been asking us for for a long time and we haven't been able to do. We can now do so. Come to ten percent dotcom, slash work, ten percent dotcom, slash work and learn much more. I must get into this week's episode. This pandemic has been a colossal test of our patients from dealing with family to interminably long wait times on cause with the unemployment office. just wanting this whole nightmare to evaporate. So we can go back to the movies. Today we got a special to part episode. In the first part, we bring on a pair of researchers who study patients and the Good NEWS. Here's they found that patients is equality that we can train and develop through meditation and a whole bunch of other strategies, including cognitive reappraisal, transcendence or just learning how to fake it. Until you make it side note, in our conversation with these researchers, we also fall into an interesting chat about the benefits of defensive pessimism, verses,
strategic optimism after the researchers that we bring on legendary meditation teacher share in Salzburg for a deeper dive into how to use meditation specifically to increase our patients, especially when it comes to interpersonal stuff, which, let's be honest, includes other people and ourselves. So, let's start our experts Doktor Sarah snicker from these psychology and Neuroscience Department at Bailey, Kirsty and Doktor Kate Sweeney from the psychology department at the University of California Riverside. Here we go right. Thank you both for joining us out of here thanks. Yes, thank you really appreciated Kate living thing on you first, can you just describe how you became it, didn't subjective patients and what you're research has shown you yeah I'm social psychologist by training, which basically means I study. You know how people kind of live, their daily lives, adults normative adults, and when I started
graduate school, I was studying essentially the benefits of pessimism, so the ways in which racing for the worse, when you're waiting for some kind of news can be really beneficial for protecting from disappointment and so forth, later on that research, expanded shouts and so now I kind of study, waiting and uncertainty more generally and, of course, the best version of that as patients. So that's kind of her Sarah and I got connected who will meet shortly and so, when I think about uncertainty and waiting, you know. I'm really king about the kind of situational press. So the fact that that's really stressful experience for most people- and, I think, a bit less about the ways in which certain people might more patiently handle that than others than what we confirmed as that yeah. It's really hard periods of uncertainty are really challenging very stressful, very difficult to cope with, and we have certainly identified some way is that people can cope better. I'm sure we'll talk about at some point down the line here, but
essentially in started, small, got bigger, and now I've just been trying to hunt down good ways of coping with these experiences, so you ve looked at it just according to your bio, you ve looked at law graduates awaiting news about the bar examined and patients awaiting buy results, so yeah a lot of uncertainty and fear and both of those situations yeah absolutely we also looked at lots of other contacts like motors waiting for election results. We looked at the last few major Hence in the U S and lots of other kinds of professional and stomach and health waiting periods, but certainly those are two of them. what are the biggest and people ask me a lot like does it matter if you're waiting for life or death news verses, finding out whether you passed? mark them, and I have to tell you the people waiting for bar exam news, look justice freaked out as people waiting for positive result. So I think life and death often in the eye of the beholder with these situations and by What measure did they looked justice? Forget? What are the metric you're using to see? How far does somebody is?
Yes, the mostly we just ask people, it would be ideal you now if we had a mind reading she and where we can really talk like in reality, how worried are they, but for the most part we just kind of people that they know when their worried, they know and their stressed, and so We actually measure it and lots of different ways to try to make sure that we're not getting kind of idiosyncratic answer A particular measure, but it includes things like worry, like repetitive thoughts, a kind of obsessing about the uncertainty, general emotional state of symptoms, of ill health for sleep, so lots of different markers of poor. While being in these moments. Ok, Sarah! Let me pick on you know four seconds. So can you just tell me a little bit about your background? How you came to this issue and describe the research you ve done? Yes, definitely so, like hey I am also trained in social psychology, but also focus on understanding personality a bit more and
Trying to figure out how we, each as individuals, are different from others and what goes into making a person, and so I began grad school. I was really interested in studying the development of character, strengths both in adults but also an adolescent and, as I began looking at the scientific literature, it really struck me No one was studying patients at all the thing, no one I found for sources, and one of them was Charles Darwin,. talking about the emotional, the bodily expression of the emotion of patients right, so it struck me as very odd and that's not a very common thing, as a researcher to find an area that is so under studied, and so I said what's going on here First of all, why is it we don't care about patients and then why should we should we,
and started to explore that question and pretty quickly. I came to the conclusion that this is actually a pretty important thing being patient about that, at least in the United States Cultural context and I think, a lot of the western world. We ve come to ignore patients really since the industrial revolution that we think if you have to wait or you have to suffer or deal with uncertainty, that to technological failure and instead of saying that that's a natural part of life, that's part of being a human being and that we can cultivate the strength of patients in order to deal with suffering and uncertainty in waiting better. Instead, our approach in the twenty first century is: let's fix it with our technology, though very quickly that this could be a problem. A lot of things that are most important in life. You don't have control over and you have to wait
and we all now in this situation of covert nineteen, where we all are dealing with uncertainty, we can't immediately fix it and so a lot of my work has banned starting to explore how we can help people cultivate the virtue of patients, understanding just what is it as a character, strength and also in the beginning, to trying to show that it is, a good thing that this is something you want your life. You know, I think a question I often get from people is full. Won't you just become doormat or be really passive and just let life pass, you buy if you become patient, and so our research suggests that is not the case and instead, people who are dispositions patient actually exert more effort in the pursuit of their goals at allows them basically to regulate their emotions so that they can choices and know when to act when not to act and not just be driven by fear.
or anxiety or anger and instead be making wise decisions. You should or in one of the paragraphs he just uttered so eloquently One of the things you are looking at is what is patients, so I'm just here how do you define patients tat, so we defined as the ability to be calm in the face of frustration, obstacles suffering, Oh, it doesn't necessarily involve waiting for something, I think that's a common component, but there may also be forms of suffering that you have to patiently endure that are never going to go away. So someone who has a chronic illness. They know that that's never gonna be fixed, but they are patient with that suffering. We also see there's different types of patients who you have kind of that long term life, hardship, patients,
a chronic illness. If you think about what causes suffering in your life, you might also realise. Oh, it's the people I'm around my right and those of us who are stuck in captivity with people that can be. You can require patients over three year old. This is a time for the impatient with her and with myself, and so we see that interpersonal patients is somewhat distinct, but really important for wellbeing, and then you have more your daily hassles patients I think what people typically think of at first stone getting stuck in traffic jams, waiting and lines waiting on the phone from it, people are now waiting on the phone for the unemployment office right. This is the daily hassles components which also, if your impatient with those that can be a source of ill health and stress by we fight.
All three are really critical and in many ways is that long term life hardship, patients and the inner personal patients that are most predictive of well being outcome this memories coming to night, I had a baby. better growing up when EDA. It was not actually lad, necks, her mother, who she described as a heavy drinker, get used to like to read up. She was irish, but she used to like to read romance novels, and the lead character and one of the novels was then we need so anyway would ADA was our baby sitter an IRA, brother and I were a gigantic pains in the bud- and I remember her- driving her yellow VFW Bug through Newton to choose its my brother and I just tormenting her and she would greet her teeth and say patient Is it hurt you? So it's interesting that if I heard you can
actually that there are these three types of patience. You know how am I on line at the pharmacy? How am I, Inter personally and thou? How am I with long term discomfort or misfortune of some sort and that it sounds too ie like their connected deep, Wow you are in one area is going to say a lot about how your and another and that's what our fancy statistics- shell, as they have some distinctive to them, but they really do have this. I think solid core to them, that the person is cultivated habits whereby they right. You laid their emotions effectively, and the other thing that I think is the common core to all of them is that a person has a purpose. Behind there waiting, that's actually something we ve shown is really essential. So if you have no reason to wait or suffer, why, why are you doing rights aegis?
up or you get angry, and so in our work, showing that there needs to be some kind of higher order beyond the self purpose. For some people, that's really building a community that they care about contributing to society for some people that can be more speed. virtual, connecting with something transcendent, whether that's Gotter, karma higher our whenever that may be, but having something that really energizes you and says it's worse. Suffering for this is necessary, but I can here that would apply in interpersonal relationships and if you're dealing with a chronic illness but howdahs transcendent, meaning apply at the drugstore. I think this is the opportunity to practice for those other tale.
because what happened? I know that's what I try to do is in those situations kind of refrain like ok. This is a good opportunity for me to practise the scale that, I know is so essential as a mom Kate I understand you ve been looking at how folks in China handled the lock down there would give us a sense of what you found. Yes, the study, I did Davison collaborators in my department, in China, in February, so at the kind of peak of the covered problem there and before it really mean now. We know it was here, but before we all kind of got used to the idea What we found is a lot of interesting things, but one of them is that, of course, the longer people had been in court in and their quarantine was a pretty in a severe restrictions, not even going out to the grocery store or leaving the house, people who- in that state longer were worse off on lots of measures even beyond the ones I mentioned earlier. Also like drinking more smoking were eating less helpfully things like that.
and we're lonelier. Of course, so given that they have that and a former, suffering due to the quarantine? We were interested in at anything. You know whether anything we measured might give us a hint What can make that lengthy quarantine easier? and again I have to tell you- I was running these analyses, I think, within twenty four hours before the Doesnt got me to my university, the like shut it all down, so little did I know how much I would need this research others finding, but what we found, basically as that lots of things that are correlated with relief it's you having an easier time in. In the moment, people were filling up. The survey so like being more mindful of, for example, seem to be at least associated with good things being more optimistic, but we only found one thing that actually seem to reduce or ameliorate the effect of the quarantine length which was being in a state of flow and so flow is basically this sort of feeling or the state you get into when you're doing some
thing that is like just the right amount of challenging where you can kind of track your programme. It's a pleasurable activity and you're just all the way in which you lose yourself. You lose track of time, totally absorbed. When I'm trying to get me. to think about what their flow activities are. I always say like: what's the thing, if you sit down to do at thirty minutes before you leave the house that you know you all completely this time and be late forever, you're going back when people at the house. So what we found is that you. well who said that they had been in that state more and the previous week. It can didn't seem to matter how long I've been important in quarantine. People had been in quarantine for two or more weeks looked essentially the same as people who were not yet in quarantine in terms of like every measure, being that we have essentially so again, it's great to be mindful of space. We ought to mistakes, have satisfaction with life, lots of other things, but none of those really seem to kind of cut down the effect that that longer quarantine was having on people's well being everytime. I hereby slow, I feel
bad about myself. Could I just don't know if I ever get into flow may be the one thing that I do would be playing the drums. yeah. I don't do that often, but when I do it sometimes I get bored But sometimes I it's amazing and I do lose track of time. What else would put you wanting in a flow state supper for everyone, because you have to kind of match those three pleasurable challenging, but not to challenge. Can also can of trapping progress, so different activities will get different people there, though but our most reliable are either your games or game aside. Other kinds of activity is so like I'm trying to Santa on the lingo. Dueling goes a very game effect version of language learning where it gives you little rewards in pleasant, sound. when you do well and it makes hugging terrible, sounds when you do partly and model
from their logo comes up and works as nice things when you're doing well. So you get that kind of like progress, tracking the rewards for doing well and it gets harder as you go on and I happened to enjoy. It so for me, that's a great flow activity, but again game any kind of video game has just come. Custom made to create thus because most video, James, get harder as you get better and give you lots of feedback about how you're doing and if you enjoy them than all the better, but people can get in flow like what favorite flow activity is data analysis, I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with most normally mumbling who ride on today's modern research area. That's great for me not only for most people, other people might get it gardening, which I find tedious and horrible people common He also mentioned things like organizing or cleaning out, closets or annex. I think I'm seeing people look for flow in this frenetic bread, Bay a phenomenon that seems to be happening right now. You now
making muffins little pretty much come out. Well, no matter what you do, it's dislike challenging task, and also you get the kind of post beautiful sure. As of your newest, sour, the recipe, and so you get that progress, and I think that people looking for flow that so interesting did you get any data from the China subjects of what they were doing now. I wish me dad and now we haven't. We have lots of other data from other studies, but not in that moment, not without population. Sadly, but what you're telling me- and I guess anybody who has a teenage child hearing this is gonna- be really disappointed. you're telling me is that video games may be really good. Yes good for some things, I guess not for others, you know if your goal is pass the time and feel good, that's another worse You can choose them and if you're gonna get your homework done, maybe not the best activity but enough you're stuck in currency in the bullets to do
yeah, my prescribe a little bit of gaming here and there about something you enjoy, and why did you lie? get. Whether I know you asked about Mindful Nesbit did you correlate than in any way to significant meditation practice by the way one can achieve flow? In that I think I pray out have ETA. I think, that's absolutely right, although it's probably not the most natural flow activity for most people, except maybe the most practice monitors so we didn't get a lot of information in this study about where their mind from us is coming from. It was more of a general measure of lake. Are you feeling these things that look like mindfulness in the past week, so people presume- play, who do more, attention and mindful practices probably feel more of it. We don't know where it was coming from. You know. Maybe it doesn't matter necessarily where it's coming from your finding it one way or another, whether it's coming from lengthy meditation or just general prison, If, as you must through the world, I think it seems to be benefiting people either way, what about physical active
because I know in China is martial arts theirs. I think she gone. I know it's Asia, but I think it's chinese which is kind of a slow motion. Meditation yoga, physic activity of any sort. Is that a flow activity and do you think, that's all you would recommend to us to do right now? Yes, so it can be a flow activity. Anyone works out. A lot probably has experienced both flow like exercise and not so flow like exercise like a heap I was getting ok at doing it on a treadmill before all this happened, and then I tried it may neighbourhood, and I was like, does not feeling flow or unmindfulness. This is terrible. Let me to stop zone that's a yoke I wish for me, does actually create more of both the mindfulness and, of course, the many other benefits of physical exercise, but also a little bit of that flow, because for me it does combine the right sort of ingredients I enjoy it. I do classes words challenging
but not overwhelmingly so, and I can kind of shock my progress at least just internally like can I hold that position that I couldn't hold before can stretch further than I could yesterday. So for me, that works well, like jogging did not is not automatically flow, but it can be the worst It's happened to me with jogging recently is now my watch tells me How fast I'm going how what my time has been ends, and now I'm ruining every run, trying to beat the last drawn and usually failing, which is another away. I've ruin Palatine for myself as well, so there are ways for us to take things like meditation like exercise. or even music. Anything and ruin it for ourselves, where great. At that juncture, people out there making soda bread of wounded himself. So Sarah, what do you think and let me just get to the heart of the matter now we're venturing towards it, but people are
I think, justifiably impatient right now, handling in various ways? What's your best expert advice for how to boost our patients quotient under these pretty suboptimal circumstances? Nea, it's not gonna, be easy as the hard thing that patients it takes a long time to become pace. Ankara takes patients to be patient. I'd say when I talk to people about hey. How do we grow your patience, I like to use the weight, acronym so W. Why is patients important to you a for awareness of starting to understand how you are actually feeling that's for many people? Actually not easy. I do this with my three year old daughter, alot of just trying to identify.
What emotion, she's feeling when she's getting upset and I've noticed, I start doing more with myself and then started, do it with? a people which I'm sure they find very annoying. But it's hard am I angry right now, and my sad and my anxious just been able to become aware of what it is. I think that in itself can often take some power away from that emotion is then, after. Why is it important awareness? I'd like to talk about identifying ways to regulate, and this could differ depending on the person. So I think what Kate was talking about, and China like finding flow states that, especially in this kind of waiting situation with Covin nineteen worked so uncertain and the timescale for how
on this could be- is really large. They could be a year to eighty months ray we're so that flow state kind of activity could be highly effective. Another strategy that we find is quite effective is what we call cognitive reappraisal, just basic, just trying to think about it in a different way in a way that refrains this situation. Sometimes that could be benefit finding, which we see people taking the opportunity to do so. While I get to see my kids a lot more I've seen more, ball talking to their neighbours from far away in my neighborhood than ever. That, in some ways we are building our unity and people are getting more physical exercise outside I've. Never seen so many people taking walks rights are just trying to find benefits in the hardship. It doesn't discredit that something bad is happening, but reappraisal too.
What good is happening or just finding a new way to realise this could be worse, that right, there's lots of ways to refrain that, just in themselves, blunt that emotional impact and then the last step. So we talk about. Why is patients, important awareness of your emotions, identifying waste, regulate and then tea for transcend so find something bigger beyond yourself, but I think with something like covert. Nineteen, that's actually pretty important that this this for not just me my own health and my own safety, but for that of our entire community that ok, even if I'm a person whose not at risk there a lot of people at risk, and I'm doing this for the greater good and our society could get back to normal
healthy manner, even though it feels like it's gonna. Take a long time with this approach of social distancing that that actually is that approach and my suffering now is helping. Others did say early on that? Have You know a meaning behind your patients really can turbocharging all enterprise. So that's the transcendence yeah, that's the transcendence, something bigger back to a the awareness of your emotional state that to me as a meditative screams out like okay. Well, this whole weight thing can work better. If you have the self awareness that's generating meditation definitely in one of our early studies, we actually tried out created a patient's training programme for college undergraduates and with that programme every session we had included a meditation. component, because for many people in our society are lies, or so
busy and were constantly inundated with information and stimuli. I that most people are not able, to become aware unless they stop and do some type of meditative practice, whether be more of a mindfulness meditation or some other type of meditative activity, Kate, you you're, not in your head of wondering. If you went away on that, I concur. I think that you know a lot of these processes do get easier with mindfulness tonight I sort of put flow we're mindfulness in terms of talking about our results from that study in China, just because it it did seem to have this very consistent, effective Amelia reading the effects of quarantine. But you know it's civil and would be hard to look out statistically it, but it is very possible that having mindfulness as a base and then building flow onto that is particularly effective. I would have to believe, but what I am hearing over all from you guys, is that patients is a skill that can be
generated because I am constitutionally, not very patient. I can't it still very well. I and the more I meditate, the more I notice, how my days infused with rushing and eat. My meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein is always talking about notice, rushing as a feedback. As you know, this toppling forward that's happening for me in minute, asian or when I'm putting my shoes otter. Oh you know waiting for my son to reach the end of his son, so I can tell him it's time for a time out or whatever it is. It's just there. So prominent We now see salient partly because I've got the boosted self awareness from meditation. Yes I'll stop talking, but I wonder if this provokes any thoughts. Reader review now definitely and they got it but that we can improve our patience and we found not
we were the participants who were in the chorus instead of the control group. They are more patient at the end, they also showed a decrease in depressive symptoms. So if you look actually an ancient philosophy, the virtue of patients is discussed as between two vices, so one of recklessness and impulsivity and the thing we typically think of as impatience, but the other pole is a term I can never pronounced Acadia or a CD
Basically, it's giving up on life and giving up on the things that are most important to you. Sometimes it's translated as law or boredom or business. It's we it's right. You don't really have a term for in our language, but a lot of it is things that go along with depressive symptoms of no longer able to stay engaged and when I think about it with patient right, it's if you become so overwhelmed. You start to just give up on goals and on life, and I think that's a real danger. We have seen during this quarantine for covered. Nineteen people are disconnected from things that are most important to them and disconnected from everything and from the things that their passionate about, and so it makes level tends to me earlier what your thing with Flow Kane, I think with flow you get. That
Energy of feeling that passion that thing that energizes you write in with patients. It helps you to not become so overwhelmed that you just have to disengage, because you can't handle the negative emotion and that anxiety and so you just get up and stands out in Alsace out. You know, I think a lot of my research has sort of looked at what we do and we are they are yet to help you find yourself thrown into a terrible, uncertain situation, orator one interpersonal situation in the case of that sort of patients. You know what do you do that, and so a lot of my research is kind of looking for cheap, like if you find yourself losing your mind, because your patients is not where it needs to be. well. Ok, maybe if you try maybe try to find a flow activity you now we ve got some others like expose yourself to something that will bring ah into your life, so in other all kind of cheats to try to achieve for patients, as she is naturally, but are those
sheets are those just genuine tools that will get you to patients. Well, that's a good question. Either Genuine tool sizing, see yes, cheap is under selling. Them makes no one ever achieves perfect patients. Right, though, I think those are the habits, the practices that you can really start building and I like to call patients a character, strengthen virtue rather than our personality trained, because I really think it is something that you can create as a habit in your life and that habits as finding little rewarding things that will help you keep doing that habit and I think, with something like patients right finding those treats of you know what I was patient today. Let me do my ten minutes of video games cause. That's fine like it's. Ok to you, don't have to knuckles,
out in achieving in one fell swoop, that its small habits over and over again in a particular context and world home right now, and that the context, we always our end. So now is a great time to really started developing those habits and may be creating little spaces within your home Ok, here's brightened go and meditate and practice this thing and when you go sit in that particular spot, it can help you to activate those good habits the patrons Jim. He had so you you talking impulsivity. What came to my? and for me- and you talk about Impulsivity- is kind of being one of the opposites of patients and the marshmallow test came to mind to me. For me, so Kate you're smiling just for people who are I am familiar with this. I think it was Stamford or I don't know where was, but they did this test where they had brought a little kids visitors. I would have failed as a kid and I would fail right now. They said you can
have this marshmallow right now and then you're done or you can save your patient Lee and will give you two and kids, those who waited for the second marshmallow, there were correlation as I understand it in terms of life outcomes that we're pretty powerful. So I'm curious, if this lands in any way for you and then also one of use that as a way to get two eating, because I think this is something we when were feeling an impatient of adverse Kate. You pal, I have some thoughts as well read the marshlands has does really honing in that very specific ability to delay gratification which, yes, we know is quite important. They think, is an ingredient to help with patience. I think patients is a little bit different than that marshmallow test.
Because there's a lot of choice and agency there that we don't always find in especially uncertain waiting situations or situations of long term suffering? Right though, unlike what this is the second marshmallow I'm waiting for living. There is unstuck we're stuck here. There might not be a magical cure that if you just do the right things and do the perfect diet and do the perfect exercise that you still might have this bad thing that you have to deal with, and so that's where I think delay of gratification can be really helpful for patients cause. We do often have quite a few choices and agency, but sometimes we have to figure out what to do when we are up against this hard limit or against this thing that isn't going to change and that's where I think having the skills of patients of having it
your purpose of why the suffering matters have been able to find ways to make sense of that difficult thing and then regularly around. It are really important, but are you think, Kate? yeah, I don't know they have a tonne to add, but it is sort of an interesting take on patients. think of any sort of one piece of self regulation or self control, which is really what we're talking about with the Walter Michel stuff about marshmallows. You know it does again, I'm going back to why I called some of these curving strategies, cheats earlier, and I think what I was thinking. I thought that was that if patients- kind of so you can develop essentially to some extent which, of course, you do through practice, but there may be becomes a bit more automatic that I guess that then makes it sound a bit like self control. in that you can develop it and then again My comment about sheets, I think what I was thinking is like some of the strategy's. I study would work.
even if you are you know- and I think I'm weak laying it doesn't really matter like you can do it either way, even if what has become our habits. Efficient people so not have direct answer, but just some additional thoughts. There So you're saying, if I hear you, and I noticed this comment come up in some of the research that our producers Samuel semi, that is possible in some ways to fake patients, yeah. I think so I mean you know, get us her depends How do you define patients really like download. Is it something that is inside us or is it a behaviour that we do and that's often really hard to disentangle with psychological stuff? But I guess you know when I think of patients in the sort of virtue language, it does feel like something that we may be have a little bit of inside of us and can build a Sarah has said, whereas I think you can fake being patient. Very well to yourself when it comes to things like flow like you just
in the Argo. By facets of that, you handled the our well. It's just you made it flyby, because you were playing a video game. You know that feels like a cheat to me. It's not like real patients. Little pay off later, it's just You got through this bad, our or this tat day, but I would say, miss patient is in a different category for me, because as you are and leaning in two the feeling I mean it's a really hard thing to do your leaning in to the discomfort, the restlessness, the uncertainty, there's an art to it, because you know one overwhelm yourself either, especially if you have some trauma background, and this is my many definition certain a collective another worrying right now, so there's some delicacy. That is four, but in general we are short of theory the only way out is through is meditation worlds rallying. right here, and you know that does strike me as a cheat that strikes me as like I'm gonna embrace. This thing ended the benefit,
is that over time, I'll be less controlled by the restlessness, etc, etc, and I say to you know something about earlier: the Wait plan to patients the awareness I think that sheets is you try to just deny that there was ever them the negative emotion. I think some people just go straight to the video games and try to pretend they aren't upset at all and just kind of double round it. So I think it sometimes ok to use those flow But I completely agree that the meditation approach says we're jumping all the way and we're going to become fully aware of that negative emotion, not judge it see what happens with it, and I think that's really a critical step to achieving that long term. More disposition all character, virtue of patience. You can't,
get to that personal. It can work for you wherever and whenever you are that you ve got a builder, actually address that negative emotion and not just go through escape. yeah? I agree, and I think you know again just coming back to that. One study, though we have lots of studies on the benefits of flow and, of course, mindfulness, but seem to me that the fact that these were a quarantine in that city was about two weeks two to three weeks and so You know it seems to me that that you could perhaps persist through a couple days, maybe a couple weeks by just like, as you said, kind of avoiding denying flowing in ways, take your mind away, but it's not gonna be sustainable for really like. At the time and so as we're looking at really long periods of time here. I do think, then, that practice of mindfulness, that is more kind of portable. Whether or not you can in that moment use a flow activity or not. You can at least have that inside. That becomes much more important for longer periods of time gate. Let me get you to talk about interpersonal.
Patients. What does your research either professionally or personally shown you here? So what does much at that. Nice of interception. Research wise at least with patients, is really on the like patients with uncertainty, side of things, but Lord knows we will have plenty of experience is within our personal patients. Personally, and I certainly as well. I dont have kids, so that's one that I think is like a constant test for most people. of interpersonal patients that I dont have a very energetic dog that occasionally test me. But social protection and social support are, of course, Lake wildly important for, while being all the time just eating a graduate seminar this morning and we were talking about relationships and social support and It really digging into the fact that those are so threatened during this period of time when most of us are relatively isolated, and so you know one of the things that I think is really key is in a fine.
Those ways to connect to others and a sort of feel that sense of connection where it might not be it's interesting to, I think, even find that social connections with tv show character can actually services surrogate as well for people, so your Netflix binge actually could be really healthy thing to do right now. I think the research actually supports it meets a lot of this issue me and then so, you know, I think so often we Pooh Pooh
media and consumption of video games and tv shows, and things like that. But I think, in this kind of time, in particular, is really an amazing tool that we can use to help ourselves into a kind of replenishing feel connected, even if we can't be with real people who find it kind of tricks, the brain the end, and I think with that and with interpersonal patients, we haven't been able to look at a ton yet, but I think we do show that the ability to empathize with others seems to enable you to be patient with other people. Also, if you realize oh there's a reason
our being difficult. It's a whole lot easier to then extend grace and not be upset by them, and I would say that consuming novels tv shows actually can really help build your empathy skills, because Europe, following the story in a kind of takes you step by step and how to relate to other people, and so even if you're, not around people during this time, especially those who are maybe all by themselves, you can be building your patients just by building your empathy and engaging with narratives that are really compelling, and the thing connecting with characters and it's fun. I was gonna, ask you cause you when you're talking about flow before regime of video games, I was gonna ask about Netflix, although since ABC News is owned by Disney, I should say Disney, plus yeah. Seventy five is that a flow activity not generally so
That is revenging Netflix, though I completely agree with Sarah that it might serve other functions and its relaxing and if you're doing it with some one, of course, that's another bonding experience as well. That, in terms I would say most tv and movies and even books, they just Al Qaeda, get quite there and he will challenge me and others on this all the time. Even I have thought a lot about this, because love reading novels and I can lose time. It certainly has that piece of it if I'm really into a good book or a great tv show. But what I at least have found- and I think that the research on flow would be consistent with this. Is that its great, if you're kind, of doing ok look get your mind is relatively clear. Enquire then, the good buddy the tv show you how it can be a positive experience and lots of different ways if your mind is spiralling out, send your ruminating or worrying, and it is just a mess up there. My mind at least will speak for myself is very careful We are continuing to do that, while watching tv or reading a book- and it really- you know it's a bummer- is then it also
the one thing I was trying to do, and so I think that you know again it's I am certainly and advocates of entertaining yourself. However, you can and these moments, but if what you're Looking for is to quiet your mind to pass the time quickly. You might I think a little more creatively about what is not, maybe is obviously relaxing, but is more engaging, and that might be a better option. Sorry you're talkin about empathy as a tool for interpersonal patients. We have either of you look at loving kindness practice as a way to boost everything or, I think, more technically accurately compassion guess. We actually included some loving kindness meditations in our patients training programme, and so those that was a component of what was effective for people to increase their patience, and I think loving kindness practice is so powerful too, because it builds connections. You realize how you are part of
bigger hall. That's not necessarily, I think its intent, but at least for myself, as I have done it, I realize it kind of puts that transcendent. the map for you that I'm one small piece- and I start with myself and then realising I'm part of this giant universe with people that I love but also some enemies but can have all of nature, and that I find it for myself- kind of leads to some moral elevation. Even after I do it for a while, and I think it kind of secretly gets that transcend an element into the practice of patience and helps. You realize this isn't just for me. This is something much bigger than me and actually feeling love and compassion and positive things for other people in the world. That aren't just me really helps with the
Empathy and saying I feel like the centre of my own universe, but I am not the entire universe and that there's other people and creatures and all kinds of animals and all kinds of things that we need to be considering. That makes it a whole lot easier to deal with the dog that sparking. In the middle of the night. In contrast, interestingly, the one way, but I've used, loving kindness, meditation in my research- has actually like the control comparison group and the reason is because again the kind of patients. I guess that I look out are the sorts of struggles that I look out. are really as much interpersonal there very much. In your own mind and so when we were starting to think about the role of mindfulness and specifically mindfulness meditation I'm making waiting a little bit easier without okay. Well, what's basically the same as mindfulness meditation in every way in terms of the breathing in the relaxation in the sitting in the contemplating but doesn't, Thirdly, as much at least have the present moment,
gone, judgmental, thought piece of that, which is where I really think that its useful for waiting. You know when we're waiting for something or feeling uncertain, there's a lot of mental time, travel, zinging back and forth, like I studied more for that task, so my gosh, what's gonna happen. If I fail, no, no and so mindfulness is really well suited to not mental time travel down a little bit and keeping you in the present moment and also to be more are aware of what your worries are and what you're ruminations are, and so again Where's, loving kindness has many many benefits not as well suited to that situ and so when we say in our lab mindfulness meditation is good for waiting is actually, in contrast, still loving, kindness meditation, which didn't hurt. Anybody ever didn't help nearly as much interested, because I would- Imagine you could be easier on yourself in the face of all of the uncertainty that would be a benefit of loving kindness, meditation, We are waiting for a biopsy or something like that. I can imagine how to be the case. This was of the bars I M set, wasn't quite as Yemen, literal life or death, at least, but yeah.
Those are the only two groups. We had an that studies, that what I'm guessing is is that everyone benefited a little that relative to doing nothing, maybe in terms of compassion which, obviously, as a component of my fulness, as well with the non judgment piece of it you know everybody got that boost, but then the mindfulness people also and these are by the way, not practised meditate or is this was like ten minutes, maybe wants it, by the way we wanted them during an everyday, but of course they did not, but even with that, it did seem that mindfulness was even a little bit better and again. I think it's because it does more tackle the sense of mental time travel and worry a bit better. loving kindness might live under two if you think about it. So if I'm trying to figure out what I should do like, where I think as individuals, I think about
What practice should I be adopting right now or what do I need today? I think you could think about. What are my mean struggles right now. Is that I'm stuck in my head and can't get out of this repetitive thought loop and super anxious right, so that I think, is when you want more than maybe the just the mindfulness meditation, or is it that my spouses driving me nuts we're just all fighting with each other in the house. Maybe then the loving kindness, meditation or maybe, if you like I don't want to do this anymore. I think it's done my my following these rules. Then loving kindness meditation might be really helpful to realize you're connected to others and that you need to act for the sake of others. I think, as people are practising meditation, just thinking about kind of taking a moment to say what is what is it? I need today where my at checking in
ok, maybe this practice now imagine if you actually have a community that you talk to around meditating or someone who's got you that would be really helpful. We aren't always great at knowing what we need. Most of us are, so that's where it is always good to have someone else to thinking about this with you. I know what I need: principles and his new plus exactly but the penguins movie endlessly person. So far I have nothing there. Nature movie is like that thing I actually enjoy watching with my daughter. I know I gotta get my son of Scooby doing you're too the nature movies that would make my life so much better. I had a question about for UK. You brought before test The message that the benefits of pessimism: what are your thoughts on the balance between optimal pessimism in the current predicament in which we find ourselves. create question. I have thought a lot about this. I mean I've been thinking about this question broadly for decades, but
thinking about it now because most of what, I have studied when it comes to the benefits of pessimism- have to do with a period of uncertainty that has a clear end, and so no, but with a fair amount of competence at this point, as that, if you're waiting for something where you know when the news is coming or when the thing is ending then having? This are shifting away from a general attitude of optimism to a bit more of pessimistic mindset and at the moment of truth, which could mean moments, but also even days or weeks, but depending on the time course towards the end of it. Picking up well that more of that preparation, rather than the optimism is healthy, and it does in fact make that news easier to take. It makes good news feel even better and actually, even during the moments a few and pessimistic if you're doing it in the right timing, it doesn't it. I heard that much because it gives you a sunset, your controlling you're, a future emotional states, so it can actually reducing society if what you anxious about as being in a flattened by bad news such great for that. But for us here we have, These are open, ended. Who knows when this ends kind of uncertain?
You know it's not some piece of news, we're waiting for its seismic in our ability to handle this pandemic, which could happen months. Probably not the maybe or you know two years are never, and so then I really struggle actually is guided by us in terms of how to manage your expectations, but I do think what I'm doing at least is trying to maintain as much optimism as I can not wildly unrealistic? optimism but kind of a general sense of like a humans have survived then this before we will probably in the end, be ok or at least most of us, well that sort of general positivity. I tried to do as much as I can, but then I kind of periodically what That means represent. Maybe once every few days just kind of Turkey in like with myself and kind of make sure, am I going to get blindsided by something here. Am I insufficiently prepared for you know, I have elderly parents for example, on I insufficiently sufficiently prepared for you know something government
happens one of them. Where am I insufficiently preventing bad outcomes for myself? You know. Do I need to. a bit more about my own preparation. By the way I have to pause and able France will probably listen to those they hate when I call them. Ultimately, they are useful, older age people who are very well- and I am not at all worried about them. I promise not to address that If there are things that I feel like, I really am like not ready for that. Of course, I should think about that and be prepared, but then I just don't think that sustainable over a period of time that were in without incurring a pretty huge cost of misery is so can I think, my best advice This desire, open, ended, long term situation is find optimism every you can and let S innocent men once in a while, just to make sure you're ready for what's coming next, whatever in the world that might be there's somebody who's employed defensive pessimism throughout his life. That actually strikes me is quite reasonable, farther
questions I should have asked visa the patients that I fail to ask Creek stir them important staff agreed. Well, do some cognitive re framing if we weren't in this situation, might not have met the two of you, so yeah one get benefit to find. Yes, thank you both for doing this really appreciate it more ten percent happier after this. better help offers licensed professional councillors, specialized in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief, connect with your profession
counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love Ok, thanks to staring catalyst, bring in share in Salzburg, she's, the co founder of the insight, meditation society and one of the founding teachers of the ten percent happier app she's a regular on this show she's. Also written a bunch of books, including real happiness in real life. Of. We talk here about how to use meditation to boost patience, which are what the difference between patients and passivity and we talk about how to be patient with yourself as well as others. Here we go, Sharon's Albert will. Thank you for doing this really appreciate it. So it's nice to see you and citizens
see you do so. You have had a chance to read the transcript of conversation that our listeners will have just consumed. What're you general thoughts and meditation, and patients meditation, makes you more pace at and of interview. That's it learned and say to myself early in my practice word felling. Nothing was happening least in developing some patience which, within the buddhist context as a high virtue. I mean it's not a small thing, shrilly very big thing actually and of course, it's one of those qualities that so readily misunderstood. It's hard to get even now. This is coordination from the Buddha that our patience is the highest us,
thirty or sometimes translated, as is the highest renunciation. We tend not to like either those words of solidarity or enunciation, Sir there's other attractive, mostly, but really is considered a tremendous strength. Why? Well, I think it's tied in to things like not only tolerance and forbearance, but acceptance and perspective. It's like. I never have raised a choice. But you are in the process of raising a child, and I am assuming that, when your kid is trying to walk and they found them and they fall. Then they form Emily Forman have frustrated, they gather a stages are doing it, but how frustrated do you get Can you accept that this is an age of development? This is how things are going to happen. I also think of this story. Joseph ghosting tells about his mother She was getting older and
as a younger women she'd been tremendously adventurous. I hear he says she went to India before I did you not yours, very bold and audacious, and but now notice, some years late, turn me in California and there were technical walk and he said they got to place. That was the mildest of inclines ahead of them and she freaked out, like I can't do. That is too much for me. To that end. He was complaining like mine. You can do that in a league if nothing is really nothing and pressing her and she was just so resistant and then he realized for her. It's like men, Everest. You know, that's how she seeing things and then he dropped into
the way things actually were in that moment now holding onto the expectation of the past and then a real relationship can happen in that moment, and so he had to become patient with the new reality. I have aging parents, you dont, you ve met my parents, and I continuously having to remind myself that I'm not but interacting with the mom or dad that I remember I'm interacting with the mom and dad that are here right now and that I don't know if it's patients or wisdom. Her chest. Practicality bet it's incredibly useful. You know the very touching stories about people whose parents dementia they say, where's, mom and dad says where's mom and the now adult childs as well,
is a nursing home and that, for example, an hour later. Yes, it again and again the zeal of the sun is consistent. You ve got to see things as they are here now and dead can't do it, and so, like the billions time, they say she went to the store and just like. Ok here we are. This is a different reality, So do you find that meditation Emmy? Do you ever get impatient to as it worked for you? After all, these? That are and I m a lot better. I mean it has a lot to do with you no view as a meditation teacher fear teaching a brand new student. I may
are full of doubt is this is worth doing you have to understand. This is a process. This is just how people feel and its genuine it's important to expressing it is not really fair to say what I've had to answer that question seventy thousand times and the like since a visionary quality in that sense, and that we can have a sense of this is now for this person, and It may well be that they grow when they change and not always gonna be this way is unfair to them to just categorize them like a certain kind of person. Possessor experience now, whether through their relieving right now and that's been a beautiful evolution as a teacher is kind of allowing people to unfold their own pace and not superimposing my
time timetable on them or in. I think, for anybody. Who's got a friend who suffering and maybe self destructive in tell you something of that. This urgency in our wish that they change, but there also needs to be a kind of patients, You know their life is now unfolding on our timetable to bad rate for her. That's that's also the reality of things. What is the mechanism by which meditation and this is it could be a tricky question, because there are different types of Mediterranean. What's the mechanism by which it develops this quality of patients for us all, I think with mindfulness practice, which is designed to help bring us closer to the experience That's actually happening am notice, pretty quickly our assumptions and our airlines and our interpretation and projection into the future. Once we can see those
more as they are rising. We have the chance of letting go of them without those you know like hurry up mom are you know why are either way you were fifty years ago, then we can more or less drop into how things are, and that is the colony patience. Is that kind of acceptance? Acceptance? the funny were too because it doesn't mean you enjoying the way things are. You know that you're delighted at great in a man can walk up the hill anymore or even at your complacent or apathetic? It's not that either, but its being so close to reality. That sets the basis of what you say and do does the truthfulness of that. I would love and kindness practice. I think we which is- no different methodology, we actually step into a different round. That may be less familiar to us, then being nasty report
thousand. Having super perfection is dick, unrealistic standards and judging ourselves by them, and we step into a realm of practising what it's like to be kind to ourselves or to others, and so here too, we get to see those habits frizzle of justice habits, but also as not the only alternative that they can be very strong where we tend to live. Maybe, but the only way of seeing things and the other way of seeing things are approaching ourselves and others is not stupid. You know it's not just some anyway phoned me. It's just different. Let me pick these. I wanted all Taiwan Michaelmas version, then we'll go to loving kindness of a big fan of both, as you know, tat your fault yes you're happy, yes to exhibit a lot of patience when over the years,
so unmindfulness, I am not a patient person. I am rushing off I am- and I noticed this is one of the things I have to be patient with myself about the more self awareness I have courtesy of meditation, the more I notice how much I am rushing and I feel it is like a burning or a buzzing, a very uncomfortable buzzing in my chest. If I'm paying attention and it's you know it even here, Lobo right now what I have to do after this magnetic, where what am I gonna finish work out, and when do I get a pittance? meditation today and blah blah blah and then with the training meditation that you helped teach me, I notice it and then kind of blow it. This and let it go and it just comes back over. You have to keep doing that its magic, but it's better than just owned by it all the time. I am describing the process accurately too
here. I never suggested you blow something a kiss, so I wouldn't dare seconds we urge that guy added I hope it's all made really impressive. Like last time I spoke to you used the word heart. My immediately shivered is like life. There are definitely given that suggests blossom but while this is great well, you know that sort of reflexive utterance on my part of blows something a kiss. It actually the result of a combination of my vote, this practice and loving kindness breakfast, that's how it showing up for me, instead of just seeing the rushing and a greeting my teeth, noting it in court on coordinate, go. I think what happened, more time with adding a lot of loving kindness practice in is that I actually view it was. This is, I think I reject cornfield, say this, today this is just the organism. However unskilfully trying to protect it
Our view is an old programme in here, and I should give it some respect the minutes yet sometimes its useful, not very often, but it's not trying to mess me up. It's actually trying to do the opposite, yeah. No, I think it's great attitude to have toward What may be things that are hindering us in the end? You know, at least for now not feel embarrassed. about what we're thinking you're, putting ourselves down for approval of hay yoke. Here you know you can take a rest. That's ok, you're! Nothing! That's a perfect description of the process because a lot of old habits rise and one of the things I ve gotten a lot from my meditation practice, which might be fits in. Is that value of a moment of coming back or releasing, even if it has to be done again and again, because that's the kind of thing that one might easily decry like. I blew it in. I I I running to get to the minutes,
could shut them all out of breath. Khazars rushing to meditate, but with There are moments of saying, take a brass just relax sooner and then we get caught up again and then we relax again or we stepped back. We have some spaciousness, we have some perspective. Then we get caught up again. It mostly people put themselves down cause of. Ultimately they did to get to the meditation cushion or something like that, but everything a moment when we stepped back when we can regroup when we recover a very valuable moment, because that's really planting the seeds of being able to do it again and again, and it's not nothing really, sir. Be able to let go of really burdensome pattern of thinking and just be an amount even if it doesnt last for six hours. I want to make I understand that so we may catch ourselves having rushed or been impatient, either way
standing online, hopefully socially distanced at the supermarket. we're waiting on the phone line for the unemployment office to finally pick up or and you know, having been impatient with somebody with whom world down or whether all the forms of impatience centre available to us in their many. We might catch ourselves being impatient in those moments. Ourselves a story about how we're never gonna stop being impatient, but actually, if we ve got a little mindfulness on board, personal, that's what's allowing us to catch ourselves and there may have been little moments throughout the alleged rushing where actually you did catchy at mid stream in and so actually yeah there's ten percent twenty percent there percent, less momentum to the rushing during the time when you thought your rushing in one member state and one of those moments go to realize. What's going on to begin again to come back to your aspirations, come back to your values, to come back to even just your breath, which actually function the same way to come back to your breath
you come back to your values and- what you really want more than anything end, and then you get one again in a usually, we only focus on the moments we get lost, but in fact growth and progress happen through those other moments, even though they not last for long and so that has also helped me- be patient, because in the beginning that was the most looted thought in the world to me. Like you know yesterday, I can only be with three breath. Surely it should be with eighteen breast today before my mind wonders and tomorrow, before the vote you know and that's the way we tend to think but to be instructed that the most important thing is the moment after your mind has wandered after you ve completely blunt after you, ve gotten lost her recover. Have you come back and come back again, again and again and again the son a waste of time? It doesn't mean you doing wrong major junior right and to me
that's where the loving kindness practice, which I will have said this in my introduction to you. You ve been the surf premier purveyor of this kind of practice in the west, and that's been it's an amazing service. You ve done the loving kindness practice is key as an intertwining with mindfulness, because it's the moment of waking up that is the key moment in mindfulness, but that I think there is so much subtle or not so much not so subtle aversion, self, laceration judgment braided through those moments for most of us, but if, if you ve got the warming of the mind, loving kindness practice, on board as well. Then, when you wake up, you can recognize. This is just a pattern. It is trying to help me. This is This anger and feeling right now is, in my case, lichens where did by my grandfather, probably an, but maybe can see warmly because it is trying to protect me. And yet here we go back to the breath.
yeah. I know exactly, and I think that's why I want to start a teaching looming highness practice in the worst was nineteen. Eighty five and a lot of people work. Resistant felt flower ear like a feel good practice or, as I sometimes say, it was like a guy early practice seen on, and I think it took Well, I mean I had just tell the three months experience in Burma only doing loving, kindness practice in a very immersive intensely, I saw I saw within myself how it affected myself judgment and my fear and my sense of isolation, and it was radical and important for man and so on. I came back instead of teaching at and I met a fair amount of resistance in judgment. I just thought I'd feel happy like having is important and it didn't work. Gratifying to me and all kinds of ways over the years to see really it's exactly what you said:
That is not that easy to be mindful in illegal or asking people now and this time sit with your anxiety. Sit with your grief sit mass of uncertainty and be with it all in a different way, and it's not that easy. But it's such a tremendous strength, one even for a little bit of time. We can do that because that's what we're actually feeling you know and to be able to be with all of those feelings that hating ourselves for it or feeling ashamed of it on the one side or being completely overcome. Undefined by its that were we're choking. You know it's too much, not volume either in finding a place in the middle witches, her mindfulness sometimes defined I think, all the loving kindness
we can use will really help. Us is interesting right there in your story of having come back from Indiana, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five it started to teach. You know, love and kindness, meditation in the west and running into all sorts of obstacles and judgment even in the Lovey Dovey, a Buddhist where their patients in that patients, with the People with whom we are interacting in patients with yourself, too. You know maybe, get over whatever doubt you were experiencing in the face of the doubts raised by others, etc, etc. So it's kind of that story proves the point in and of itself. Thank every one of the things I like about really exploring patients is arrogant, seemed so passive and that you I can keep acting or you're, not gonna protester. Take the stand like
should we be feeling patience toward people who are walking around New York City streets without a mass. Thank we we don't want to be consumed with l will we need perspective. We need understanding, but I think people need to act in some way whether it's my government official with a regulation, or I understand in New York the commentaries rather colorful when somebody's in what you ask and that other people have taken it upon themselves to in very New York, waiter express themselves, and I think that appropriate, that's correct. But ok, that's an interesting case study, because I know you're saying that patients is not blind acceptance or resignation, passivity, but there are eyes suspect, wholesome and unwholesome ways to act.
So now you re using a bunch of export is at somebody here, It was not wearing a mask, as is: is that kosher or is there a way to do it? That makes sense Well, there's always a way to do it. I mean that's more skilful. I was just amused because it was open. Some new Yorkers network are claiming that with pride you know like, but you know you actually don't have to do that with ill will and salute hatred. There would be really good idea and the Earl far more skilful ways of acting in most, situations and therefore, mindful enough, sometimes we can discern what they aren't. We do the best we can, but I just found rather amusing, because I miss New York's well, I can tell you you're, no european in Central Massachuset yeah, I'm here in New York. It is it's weird it's
yeah it's kind of a nightmare like a lady of just I mean I'm not gonna, give up a New York City, I'm actually, and I you're, not either, but it's just it's hard. You know every can't go to the site. Everybody's wherein mask is just a strange situation. God at his door, and they ve got plexiglas everywhere and the ants it's weird. But let's keep going with this patients and interpersonal relations because I yeah we meet with is the sort of level of being frustrated with people who are not taking social distancing as seriously as we would like them to the politicians we see. tv, but then it also people that were locked down with. So how would love and and or from this help us with forbearance, but not passivity in those moments, I think, it's many levels. One is the way we learn to communicate witches not condemning
hopefully you know like instead of saying you're an idiot can't believe you're always leaving. Andrea on the floor would have her. We put away the dishes wet and whenever the irritant might be its action Lee, every sound, so hackneyed and cliched, but it's actually expressing you are feeling using I language like I was real They concern when they went to get my bow for Syria in the middle of the night. Having worked clumsily, It had all the moisture, in Freetown about fungus or whatever I find those things so difficult and annoying because they seem so formulae but learning to, and that takes tremendous patients to be willing to express things in a way that
actually more vulnerable and therefore more honest like I wanted, I hope for I would be so gratified if you know whatever it's much easier to say, you're an idiot and you never show up, and you not take care of anything
if you are willing to do that, that the whole of the level of communication and then I think, there's a certain understanding, even as we ask for something, even as we try to make a change in some way that people are really a visit, another cliches I had said, but people really are doing the best they can and my colleagues will your voice seemed final. You talk to recently always used to say that we were teaching together and I I was in her commercially like really and sitting of people doing the best they can. Actually, I will quote from maybe my under Lucy said when you know better, you do better.
And that was your form that I felt all right. You know same for me when I know better. I do better and I think, even just holding that vision is locked down somebody area in communication with them, even as you express what you want, what you need, what you'd like to see how things might change its having that understanding, really people kind are doing the best they can. Let's helpful, do better. If we can, I think for me, I have that understanding intermittently, but what has helped me boost that bedrock understand. in which can then you know level up to informing. How you actually act is that in the practice of loving kindness, which Europe whatever it's a little bit
plenty and some levels, but so is lifting waits year, have systematically envisioning people and then sending them. These phrases may be happy, may be safe, healthy, live with ease or may be free from suffering, depending on the flavour of loving kindness, you're doing the flavour of Brahma, the horror that you chosen. In doing that over and over and over again, you kind of just retraining up the basic understanding. This is a human being, and you have your training up. You're a cop a city to see the best in them to want the best for them and just when I needed, sometimes that shows up for me not always, but some tat. I did weapon. I guess you'd call it for international humanitarian aid workers a few weeks ago. These are people really people from all around the world who are devastating conditions often- and I can't
you know they work is like a mission that can't get into the refugee camps right now or their funding evaporated, and these are activists and they can act and Sir there were locked envied all around the world, and there is a high level of dismay at themselves, which was like an add on you know. I shouldn't be this, straight lest I should find a way where it can make a difference here I am it's hard with my family and it shouldn't be that way. a whole other level that actually was most immediate burden in a way that was there was extra and they had had a workshop couple of weeks before, with Parker Palmer, the educator great human being and at the end of his workshop with them. He had everyone and made themselves
get off your one another and he had everyone say both to themselves. And one another welcome to the human race. So they asked me if I could think another one known pithy slogan to end my time with them, and I said like Alan, he felt like no one again. Every girl encapsulates law welcome to the human rights area so that, sadly, that has the potential to be, Understood in an army directional way like you can say that to yourself when you're noticing something about yourself, you don't like, but you can say that yourself about other people. When there are behaving in ways that you know patients all around here. Patients all around one last thing to ask about- and I am thinking of your neighbor up there and sent he's got this whole
brave and I'm sure you have your own too, but it's his that is just coming up in my mind right now- and this is more on the mindfulness meditation Tipp, but of using rushing in our path. this in our life as a feedback to pull ourselves. Nonaligned noted Can you, through your own perspective, talk about that because I think it is a great day. No, I mean when I did. The pact has too few after that no hospital last year, when I had such a site is realistic, and I told you a story about how the first time I got up to walk was on the Walker. Condemn Hospital Carter's is one dozen had a physical therapist with meagre one point she said to me: it's not a race, you know, you'll get all that further. If you just start now and then and take a break, that became my mantra because I realized a lot of times and just like racing and its Lee you describe this morning, I gotta get. This done was an excellent Jesse,
not so much to do and I'll take care of everything, and I realize I get a lot further, a fresh start now and then, and not just been this forward propulsion all the time. And so when I moved my friends House were state from the two months and I would every day outside first through the water and then with came in just walking and that really was my mantra. I would like you know what I had like: a physical therapist was muted, it's a wire actually stopping, and I said because I'm taking a break and I'm gonna go on an so that's one way of doing it in on it. Certainly recognising that internal feeling, of a way ahead of myself from that actually embody These are present in this moment and just coming back, you can actually take a break if that helps and just kind of regroup and then and then go forward again. This point is that you can move
but not rush. You know there is a certain sense ability to certain, sense of being ahead of yourself. That doesn't mean you have to like creep around you known and never move quickly. Here never I longed long to do list of things to accomplish it can, but I'd watch out for that internal sense because actually lose focus, and even presences balance and you lose inside. You know we're just like The thing done, really work there. Well, sir, it's interesting so just as acceptance doesn't mean passivity, resignation. Patients doesn't mean your scaling, back your ambition or your pace to some point? That's glacial! Yet nothing! It does. I know you're Miss New York. You want to read the human race. All of that requires pays union,
how're you doing with? Because I think that's a level of patients that our researchers talked about. You know they talked about in the moment, patient, where have you no waiting on holding our waiting online interpersonal patients and then the sort of the macro patients required to get through this the desire. We all have to just have this thing and you can get back to court on court normal How are you doing with that level of patient? Saying? As I know, you love being out and doing things. A strange one that way for a minute later. Well, I think it's the same scale movement practising forever at which is not easy to do, but it's really useful and it works on a moment, mom basis, which is when I start adding a future conceptualisation in the useless way like what's gonna be like,
I can't go back to New York, even by September, not only my here in the country with a lady bug, infestation, century life, but like what about my Poorman were in an it's impossible to know it's impossible to deal with right now and is only produce, This is a kind of banks, tuna, because I'm not only living the reality or now I'm living the most grim possibilities of the future. For me, that's where one mountains to go when I think about in happy the light like everything safe and I'm gonna, get back to New York in my life is gonna, be as rich and intricate as it once was, and I'm gonna be able to theater and dislike, maybe I'll see you in actually write a play? Its like? That's, not where my mind goes right now. He knows like that future and
even though everything is now is the worst possible image of the future and I'm trying to bear at all at once in it's impossible. So am I think, if you go back to the gritty, Davidson's research and physical pain and how the different whoever tables and non meditative is all in her from her eye machine. The seas inducing some kind of pain is that when the pain was withdrawn, The non meditated would flippant cycle of anticipation when the coming back. My will be worse, however, will be an so they never than the rest. They never governing rest, but they never get a break, whereas the Mediterranean might
that is one does as a human being reviewing in Saint Animal, a reaction to the pain for the pain was withdrawn. They had some peace and they could just return to what actually wasn it's kind of the same mechanism in that cycle of anticipation is usually dreadful and its unreal enough. It's one thing if your grappling with the reality and have to deal with port by port, but it's just anticipation, and so The patient's comes from seeing wow. This is being lost in a world I have created and you either this create another world email, the screen unaltered. a boy come back, and then I coming back and to your breath your body to this moment to connection With those around you there's some,
very complete in that moment because of the nature of the connection in other contacts is very far, and that brings its own kind of relief. Yeah does and then you should have to do it over and over and over that takes patients too, as you do have to do for an over and over again the some great quotation from the Buddha. His is something like the literal quotations, goodness pathways we described as the mind to get filled with qualities like mine. listen, loving kindness moment by moment. The way bucket will get filled with water drop by drop, and I love that image from the first time. I heard it this right away. I could imagine myself standing by that bucket either looking in it, and is it going to be great when it's filled and and floating down the streets and wearing my whites are completely enlightened, but not bothering to add the next drop, which is this moment or
very easily sent by the bucket and looking at it and thinking I feel the empty has a bleak picture and again not bothering to add the next crop, which is this moment, and since I started using the example and teaching people come up to me with these different adoration, like standing by the bucket your budget, and not even looking in it, but looking over the next bucket forget her. That's really for a lot of people come up to me and saving my back. It has a whole. These buckets don't get holes really it's just the next drop in the next drop in the next drop problem, pretty good place to leave it. I think, I really appreciate you doing this- I know you- we called young short notice. So thank you for for agreeing to do it there is a programme actually sinews afternoon to my dandy. Are we all we're doing teenage live together? Nice, yes, awesome! This is this,
that's really good news game. They thanks Sharon, big thanks to the team who work incredibly hard to make this pipe cast happen. Samuel Johns arc in our producer are sound. Designers are met point and- and on your sheikh of alternate. I let audio and Maria were tell us our production coordinator. We derive a lot of wisdom from our colleagues, such as NATO, be gent plant and then Ruben. Also big. Thank you to our ABC compatriot, rang Kessler and Josh call him, we'll see on Wednesday. We got a great episode, my old pal and just mentor, and in meditation and many other important things. The psychiatrist and author Doktor Mark Epstein see Wednesday a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way,
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