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#292: The Opposite of Schadenfreude | Election Sanity Series | Tuere Sala

2020-10-19

There’s an old expression: “Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little bit.” I love that saying, because it speaks to how hard it can be to take pleasure in other people’s happiness. That said, while it may be difficult, it is not impossible -- and moreover, as our guest today will argue, it’s a massively useful skill, especially as we endure this bonkers election. Welcome to week three of our special Election Sanity podcast series. Every Monday in October, we’re tackling a mental skill drawn from an ancient Buddhist list known as the Four Brahma Viharas, or the Four Heavenly Abodes. Don’t be fooled by the high falutin’ name; these skills are eminently achievable, and massively helpful. I can say this based on both personal experience, and also a significant amount of scientific research. In the previous two episodes, we explored loving-kindness (also known by the less gooey moniker of “friendliness”), and also compassion. This week it’s “sympathetic joy,” or “mudita.” You can think of this skill as the opposite of Schadenfreude; instead of reveling in the suffering of other people, you’re celebrating their happiness. Our guest today calls it “borrowing joy.” Her name is Tuere Sala. She’s a guiding teacher at Insight Seattle. She’s no pollyanna; she doesn’t sugarcoat how challenging mudita can be, but she does have a strategy that I think you will find appealingly doable.

Where to find Tuere Sala online:

Seattle Insight Meditation Society: https://seattleinsight.org/Teachers/Teacher/TeacherID/102

Just a reminder, our Free Election Sanity meditation challenge starts next week. We're super excited about this one—we've worked with our very wise meditation teachers from this Election Sanity podcast series to create a really unique set of daily lessons and meditations, all geared toward helping you keep your cool during the 2020 Election. If you'd like to join the Challenge, Download the Ten Percent Happier app today to start meditating your way through this Election season, and see you in the Challenge with thousands of other meditators. It starts on Tuesday, October 27th!

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/tuere-sala-292

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see this is the ten percent happier Podcast Palmdale Harris hey. there's, there's an old expression. Every time a friend succeeds. I die a little bit. I love that saying because it speaks to how hard it is to take pleasure in other evils happiness. That said, while it may be hard, it is not impossible, and, Moreover- as our guest today will argue, it is massively useful skill, especially as we endure this bonkers election welcome to weak three of our special election sanity podcast Series every Monday in October were tackling. Until skill drawn from an ancient buddhist list, known as the four Brom of horrors or the heavenly abodes do
be fooled by the highfalutin name. These skills are eminently achievable and massively helpful, and I can say this based both on personal parents and also a significant amount of scientific research in the previous two episodes. We Lord loving kindness, also known by the less gooey moniker of friendliness and then in episode to compassion this week, its sympathetic boy or move deter. That's the ancient Polly term the big of this scale as the opposite of schadenfreude instead of revelling in the suffering of other people, you're celebrating your happiness. Our guest today calls it borrowing joy, her name is too or a salon she's a guiding teacher at insight, Seattle. She is no pollyanna, she does not sugar code. How challenging mood data can be, but she does have a strategy that I think you will find appealingly doable, before we dive in. Just as a reminder are free election sanity.
Rotation challenge starts next week were super excited about this. We ve worked with our very wise meditation teachers. This election sanity package series. Create a really unique set of daily lessons and meditations all geared towards helping. You keep your cool during twenty twenty election and will be this challenge for the seven days or running up to the election day. If you'd like to join the challenge download the ten percent, a happier apt to date, start meditating your. Through this election season, we'll see and the challenge with sound of other meditated. Again, it starts Tuesday October. Twenty seventh. Having said all that lets dive in unmoved data with Terraria, Salah. Hello to wear a great to meet you first thing in the morning hello. There is going to be easy to add a little bit after six in the morning where you are in Seattle and shortly after
I'm here where I am and on the east coast. So thank forgettin up early to do this. I just because See here. I know you ve had a chance to hear the two episodes that have preceded you in this election sanity, serious matter or friendliness and also our compassion or which I sometimes referred to us. You have given a crap any thoughts on on what you ve Third, I you know, I really thought you guys did a really nice job of Peking to people that really seem to honour now exemplify the two qualities. So I think the way they talked about it each one in their own way, really the way I would hold matter and compassion. You know Joanna was talking from this big free, work and broader, unconditional kind of just being able to engaging connect with the world wherever you're add enough friendlier me
having way not out of this intimacy kind of love but kind of an unconditioned embraced life, which is how I hold matter. Also in this very big framework and river. angel seemed fierce. No the way I hold meant, I mean compassion, I don't hold compassion in that kind of merci, empathetic kind of way, but much more of a fierce connection, and I you're exchange was her around empathy and the difference between empathy in compassion was really really good. I'm hoping I can do for more details of what they did both compassion and Mehta, because I really think they gave a good, solid representation of these hard quality. is that go beyond just our basic. Do
like someone is someone deserving of my compassion that kind of energy? This is, These energies are much beyond that. It's much better our ordinary way of looking at things your default can be mistrust and self protection. Yes, it can be. Anything. That's where we are in our ordinary, since an inn, ordinary kind of way. You can mistakenly think that the ordinary is all there is and that there is no access to this. It's called Superman Dana this other worldly kind of energy. Unless there's some kind of special thing going on. but it's not really true, like that. We have access to this extra
ordinary level of the heart all the time we just sort of take it, we can assume it in life and we don't assume these heart just like that, but you can cultivate them at the same degree of ordinary ness, these and ordinary mind states at heart, qualities. Yeah, you use the term were mundane, and I am bound to manual, buddhist history. So just please everybody forgive me, but my understanding of that terms, Burma Mundane is that, back in the day, but, as was around, he would refer to the. cities is or eddies these sort of powers that one can get through meditation, allegedly like being able to have, replicate your body or red people's minds. He would call them mundane powers,
Cooper. Mundane powers were the ability to cultivating your own mind, friendliness for all things everywhere or to drop. The ability me to cling in the face of relentless impermanence, etc, etc. So in many, as these super mundane powers are, you know, as ordinary is getting a cup of tea and It is magical, as you know, replicating your body and or walking through walls, but they happen to be much more doable. Yes, that's it. I think, that's why I like that word: super mundane dead phrasing, just I just so connected to it and the more we see these as super mundane, the less we think of it, as I got to make something special. It's like it's got to be my birthday or something for the day to be special, but it's not based in conditions these hard qualities. You guys are talking about, aren't based in condition
Why? I think this series is it's a phenomenal idea. This is the perfect time to talk about the Brahma of horrors and to talk about them with the people that you actually have selected for talking about them, because we all represent each one of these hard qualities from a super mundane kind of way, and so I think that's what I've been trying to go around and say we have just extraordinary connection to him. A friend of mine has this redone, the history of powers or superpowers are magical powers within buddhist history that the Buddhist talked about these gotta, go mundane powers as a kind of like spiritual
advertising because he was competing in a pretty crowded spiritual field twenty six hundred years ago and so yea we got the powers to, but those are Monday hours. We ve also got super mundane powers, which are that's the real deal. That's the real deal. that's the real deal, I mean that's what we're going to talk about today. This is the real deal. This is how we get through whatever happens in our lives, these powers? You know if you dont, have a sense of metal sent a friend a mess and kindness around life Can burn you up because this just so much stuff that happens, that has nothing to do with you and it impacts you if you can't find access to their cause. nurse or the pain that you feel all around them, and right now, there's so much pain around us and that pain isn't gonna, be letting up any time soon that level
suffering around, if you're not intimate with suffering a custom to suffering acquainted with it. I thought I think the word is you have to be acquainted, would suffer it if you're not pointed what suffering then being in a world in the town, we happen to live in or suffering is all around us, then we fall quickly into that level of cruelty. Whether we want to or not, we can quickly fall over, and get further and further and further away from human time. So this is about cultivating these qualities that action thirdly, help us live in a world like we're living in and still do great things still do inspirational and remarkable things in these times. So let's talk about more data,
terrorism definition? Let you define it the way I often talk about. It is the opposite of schadenfreude I guess you know we all walk around should have delighting, especially in a political, and expand whatever woe befalls our court unquote enemies, but actually there a way to do the opposite mean. Is that even safer advisable? In the current context? I don't What you mean by is there a way to do the opposite, but I can tell you, didn't I always had a problem trying to access will deter just using this. raising finding joy in another good fortune and I always used I own english interpretation of that in no I'd say a worldly since I always thought it is meaning I be happy because somebody else has some good stuff going on for an. I could just never access that.
Could never, I was always inevitably turned to one, by own disgruntled this with the. Lack of joy in my own life, but I think that is to ordinary formal data. That's not maybe, if I say worldly and unworldly as well laying seems like it's too connected to our random way of thinking and more data is pointing to something that is unworldly outside of our random way of thinking. So I changed it, so my definition is for more data. Is that you borrow another person's boy in their good fortune. Your borrowing, their joy rather Then getting caught up in trying to be joy, fall for their good fortune
So maybe we can t it out a little bit, but it's really this borrowing that I've open some pandora's Box of Mudita and stepped into it and the gates just open forming So how do you do this borrowed? Ok, so think of it like this If I were to tell you some differ. Guilty. I had you know if I described my mother's death and lets say she died recently. She died several years ago, but this issue, I'd recently and I'm telling you about my mother's death and you could feel my sadness of missing her. You can feel that sadness. Also it's what Reverend angel pointing to you can feel as human to human. My
friend along with me in that capacity that we have it's just a normal thing. It's why I think, when George floored death and the whole world seem to feel the same thing and in that ability we have to share in the suffering of each other, and I realize we have that same ability when it comes to another person's joy. So when a person is feeling joyous, for whatever their circumstances are, they feel happy there joyful. We can borrow that joy from them and feel that joy as a part of our own present moment experience waiter sea. It is if your sister just had a baby, and you just lost your job,
but if you go around her and the baby, you're gonna be full of joy, regardless of what's happening in your current circumstances, and so I begin to borrow the joy of all these different people. I know all these different situations, things they bring me joy, I started borrow enjoy from all the time, so it's like a systematic harnessing of a contact, high that would be perfect away. Did this cry with good there? That's that's it systematic way of getting a candy tides, probably the best way to do it, and I guess
we need to borrow joy because part of our problem with joy is that it's connected to circumstances is connected to conditions. So I just assume, I get to opportunities of joy. in my life a year and everybody gets only two. Should you get two good things happen to you over the course of a year where you could say? Oh, I feel good, but if I want to get to if my luck is like it usually is of any use those two opportunities up by the fifteen January, so that makes for a pretty Sukhi year, but if, if that is the way I look at life, you can see the resentment
Let's see the bitterness, that's gonna happen, while all the joys of other people start popping up over the course of the here, but there is another way you could think about this, and This is what I begin to tap into now. There's like billions of people on this earth and all these billions of people take it there too, joys also. So if I share in their joy and they here in my joy, then I can feel joy at any moment in any second, at any time it's not limited to my two circumstances, its limited. My willingness to turn towards joy of another and borrow theirs and that become a way of bringing joy
into your life in an everyday ordinary, get a cup of tea and away can you say even more about your where, rubber hits the road here you know. How do you too, where I do this? What your system for the borrowing? So here's how I borrow it? I love romantic. everything I love romantic comedy I like to see people who are in love. I just love, love love romance. And I love the whole idea of asking someone, Mary them in the persons in Yassin. I love but when couples are cut, Odin it just the whole. The thing about romantic love, I love it, but my current life, I have a valid celibacy for this
type. So I dont really have romantic. love in that way. In my life and that's a choice I made years ago that this isn't about that The point that I want to make is, I could be better. because I hear I love romance, and yet it's not in my life in that way, but I think about all the people Who are wanting to ask, want to marry them all. The couples that are together and I kind of vicariously share that joy. that they have with them, because I know there are millions and millions and millions of people enjoy in that experience, so it's more- she we in the joy of it not
damn the condition of it, but you know tit put it in perspective. If you want a partner and you don't have a partner, I would not say that You would necessarily experience joy by thinking about all the people Have partners in you don't have one I think you're gonna the feeling more miserable, so that is Your doorway into this joy. I realise that I had to find the places and the people and the circumstances that I actually feel joy for. If I'm looking for a job, I can't just say: ok, I'm happy that everybody else has a job. It doesnt work like that. You're, not happy that everybody else has a job you on a job. So, if you're looking for joy, then you have to think what,
is it that gives you joy. Regardless of your circumstances, it could be animal sure where it could be when you get artistic or the reading of power once its others, this a myriad of things that give people joy. So, instead of thinking of I'm glad. You got the job when I really want one It's more of what is it that gives you joy magic. The millions of people that are shared in that same joy with you away to think about, it is, if you sit down in any conversation with, like mine, good people- and you are all sitting there talking about a subject that you all agree on so much
It comes out of that subject, even if you're just complaining, there's so much energetic joy, that someone else understand me, and what I'm saying the same way would sympathetic joy, you're, looking for like minded people who are experiencing, in the joy that you already like an you just connect to the reality that millions of people out there feeling that same joy. They enjoy this too. They enjoy a good book, a poetry. Just like you do that's what you're connected I want to talk about the political context in a minute, but jesting with right here. You are right there that the in I think about the utility of mood deter sympathetic, joy, my own life. We
know what it's like to share good news with somebody and to feel that they are site when you tell them something that good? That's happened to you and to be able to do that for other people. Feels really good too and adjust deepens your relationship. Other people making more trusted from my perspective, not that I'm perfect that doing this, it just seems Like there's a lot of self interest or serve enlightened self interest to be too increasing ones capacity from new data, that's not the only way in which its their self interest. There's the fact that the more you look to borrow joy, the more joy you have and there's the decrease we over time of the kind of Suffering that we all feel if we happen you embrace that old expression every time, a friend of mine, six Aids I die a little bit, in other words into due to reduce the jealousy that can be such a burden as we move through the world. So I just listed at least three reasons why
This can be just a useful skill to cultivate individually. If we're sharing good news- and it's all about the thing that happened to me- right. I got this promotion and it's all about yeah got this promotion and I have to compete for it, and blah blah. If it's all about the promotion, then that not really sharing any joy. That's just sharing good new. Soon I had some good news happened to be in. This is what it is. You're, not really sharing the joy. But when you actually let yourself be joyous, then you actually let other people have access to data because we are human beings. We are social beans with each other. It is impossible to be
Somebody full of joy without feeling joy also is contagious, but somebody just self Grand dies in about look at this good thing that happened to me. That is not sharing joy, that sharing your good news and people may not be interested in your good news because they haven't had any good news, but they definitely needs and joy, and that means, instead of it being about the Good NEWS or the good thing. That's happened to you. It's more about how you feel about this good thing that happened. You you're sharing your good fortune with someone else and that everybody appreciates everybody can connect to not just your good news. yes, yes, I think you're making up even more sophisticated point than the points I was making, but I think
receiving, and there's also that, if you can cultivate this for Monday power, so that when people share good news or share their joy, that durable, it actually resonate with it rather than contract into some sort of. What about me thing. then you are a more attractive friend. Yeah. You know it is like that. I do want to we cautious here, though, because contracting into What about me? That's a normal experience it's very real. This is it Why low to use because is perfect, for how normal it is. So I had to friends it myself good and they wonders ten thousand dollar give because They submitted a right up, little story with this organization and they want and they were sharing it with the saga, and I could hear myself
man, I never win anything you can thousand dollars. I don't get ten thousand dollars, and I heard myself saying this and he hit me. You know I mean it was so easy and simple to say that, because at that moment all I was thinking about was the so I just told everybody what I was thinking you don't just so we can get a good laugh at the whole thing, but I said what struck me is mine doesn't care that I didn't apply I didn't even submit anything. I didn't know anything about the contest it does matter that this wasn't even something I was gonna be a part of When my mind hears about somebody else's good news. I immediately have this automatic response of wine. me what about me. I dont get that its automatic, and if you,
Believe that you will get stuck in automatic kind of grasping mine what about me, but after I told everybody, there was this great laughter in the room and instead of this being about the money they got it became about. just the joy we were all sharing and in all our response, It is in our own heads of what happened when they said this, and this joy began to just kind of the laughter of it and a fun, it completely change this impulse reaction of what about me, Don't worry about me. I think I think that's just something that our grasp The mines are always gonna, think it's just part of the world The way in which we live is human to human,
but below that. What about me is this? Billy that we have to feel the joy that person is feeling in this good news that they have an that's. What booty too is. more data is below that impulse level of good? For you, you know. It is a very important aspect of practice and before we get to the social issues here, the current situation. I wanna talk a little bit about what moody too is to practice. being strong practitioner to this idea or aspiration can have for an awaken minded put it into context, because when you start practicing- and you start looking for peace and call
Maybe that's the thing that everybody's treasure I just need to get to this peace and the calm, but before that peace and com is joy, it's almost like joy is the bridge that turns our efforts of practice of returning to the breath of returning to the breath or returning to the breath. It's like the joy what enables us to let go of striving and relax into this more tranquil com, peaceful play, we need the joy to do that because without that joy, their basic effort or energy that we use to return again to be non judgment or to be accepting allowing returning again too,
neutral object, returning returning it in of itself can get mundane, it can get boring. You be sitting. There said: okay, I M coming back to the breath going back to the breath and without that joy that up left learning to cultivate that joy, then it's very difficult to get to the more peaceful com my blissful states in meditation, and so the joy is the one I would consider the bridge between the basic difficulty. Of settling the mind with their bit, fit and the reward that comes when your mind is settled. The joy is that bridge and saw its necessary that we cultivate this. Not
just so I can be happy all the time, even though I am happy all the time. That's not why we're cultivating it were cultivating it so that we can get the level of calm and peace and gathered mind much more of my conversation with two areas. Allow read after this staying in full has never been more important. Information is coming in us faster than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bread milky from ABC News. In every week days we will Down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes: straightforward reporting, dynamic interviews and analysis from experts- you can trust- always credible, always solid start here from a b c news, twenty minutes every day, smart speaker or even a pot cast out
So if I've heard you correctly, you're talkin about Joy Writ large here, not just borrow joy ball, joy, as a necessary prerequisite to this. dates that many of us hope for when we approach? invitations such as calm focus insight, and so what does that joy like this joy you're talking about that is the bridge in my meditation practice, how and where, and why would I be feeling this so think of it like this. you get up every morning, you sit down at your cushion and you start method Katy in and One morning you are very peaceful, very quiet like I like it. I like it, I like it, but that kind of mourning isn't all the time some mornings you're gonna get up
you're gonna, be in a grumpy mood or frustrated or irritated afraid, anxious. All kinds of emotional energy, show up every time we sit down, but we want a practice would an anxious mine. We don't want that. She's mine to control our practice. We want to be able to be with this anxious mine. so learning to access joy. is how we are able to steal, connect with our breath and be with our path. This even one were feeling anxious or irritable. Or a verse.
Borrowing of joy that comes from more data is what I think we do to cultivate, that access to joy, just caught, evade the access to joy and joy arises on its own. I guess what I'm trying to say is the joy that arises in prayer even one you're, irritable or a verse, is a by product of cultivating mood. Data. As you cultivate- borrow enjoy it's like you get acquainted with joy. You began to get intimate with this joy.
So when you're sitting there. In practice this mind heart system can generate that joy that you need to stay and practice when you're in an adverse mine. It leads to this But if I hear you correctly, it's not like, we need to be sneezing pasty dust. Every time we sit down to practice. No, not you can't! I mean I wish Could log of iron bragged ASEAN. I should be like a brow added, but I still sit down wouldn't averse, mind an anxious mind, and you know all these different worried. You vinos ye mine. I still sit down at the same thing, but the difference is. I have access to a level of joy that any gonna sound a little weird, but I'm gonna enjoy a b. with a worried, mind and not have to do anything about it? I don't,
have to have the worried. Mind go away. because I have enough interest and joy in just beginning to get to know what it's like to be with a worried mind and it's easier for me too. What, when I'm just sitting there doing nothing, then it is when I'm trying to move about he gene in doing all the other things I have to do, then the worried markets distracting and practising what a worried mine is a good way to get to know what are the conditions that lead to worry and what are the conditions that led to the absence of worry? so there is joy inherent in the capacity to sit. Poor stand or lie down with whatever is going on in our mind and in our body at given moment the settling back viewing it with. There s some warmth, lack of judgment just that year capacity which, by the way, is our birthright theirs,
boy in that and knowing that bolstering it the borrowing that we discussed is necessary prerequisite to a successful abiding meditation practice. That's what I think so, just put it in the framework of what you guys are doing here, Being able to be with, let's say, worry, that's a meter, that's what matter is the matter. Is the friendliness, When, in worry, what joy has to do with it is, is that if we are willing to bring the matter to the worry, then our basic cultivation of matter but compassion if it feels suffering joy that were able to stay with it
That's where I think my joy would be. Is that all this isn't I got this? You know this could be with this. If it's difficult, it's going to show up like compassion. You know this sense of all this suffering here and let's look at this, No, this is hard, but there's a way in which there are times when I'm feeling worried it, I'm connected to it through the matter, and I can feel the cid. So I get not really getting the best of me or there's this equanimous way in which we can begin with that you're gonna talk about next weaken that too, has it way of helping us turn towards this com and stillness, but it comes in the cultivation of the bottom of the horrors that help answer. For us, as were sitting there with whatever arises. I keep going back to that.
seems like the locusts of the joy here is This is in the it's not getting. The best of me like there's joy that comes from the matter what's going on the matter? How much tumult out in your mind or pain in your body. If you can be with it without getting owned by it entirely There's joy in that. Yes, that's what I'm saying: that's where that joy is coming from and. it's. The same joy that we cultivate in more detail borrowing. Joy is necessary so that we can get acquainted with joy, because we don't have enough joy for things happening to us as an individual for that to happen at a level that we need to be able to sit through whatever so
borrow it from other people, so we can begin to get acquainted with together. Used to it all. I know what this joy is and then, when we're sitting there was worry and we're realizing, I'm steady with this. It's not getting the best me. As you say, then you can begin to experience that joy. It turns into equanimity. Now you just B with it as it is, but I think we need that joy to be able to turn in some of these difficult practice states. There really appreciate that point. If you don't mind, I'd like to go back to the who did you know feeling joy in the face of other peoples, boy. I really liked what you said What I heard it as it's kind of a given permission to yourself do not feel that
to be sitting. There was somebody just one the lottery and have the mind go. You know I could use some of that cash. Having met with your own for lacking from. Maybe this is too of a word, but me your own selfish as your own self interest, having some warmth toward that it seems feeling that self interest does not preclude you from then moving France, sending it to get the joy in other people's joy. Yes, that's true, because all practice is nuanced. All of these things that we talk about its new, watched I remember when Reverend Angel was talking about. You guys had that little back and forth about people who think that being really really compassion. It is more like they're not really connecting with the suffering itself cause they don't even want to feel their own suffering so
it is the same kind of new ones here. Sometimes someone is sharing something with you, but you can't seem to access the joy from whatever their sharing their share in some good fortune, but you can't seem to access the joy of it. and so it's not a situation where I should be happy every time, somebody else has some good things happen What you're looking for is, can you feel their joy. If you can't feel their joy, that's not your mood data moment you know you're, like good, for you, ok and move on, but someone somewhere has joy that you can access you can share in their joy. You can feel it and that's what you're. Looking for, Are those moments, those situations?
Are you feel the joy of someone else and it could be in any kind of situation? It could just be in a shared conversation that someone else's having you know. You guys are talking about some thing. They did stood up for themselves. They finally stood up for themselves and they really set their true. You know, and they do so great about it, and you can feel that you're happy, I'm so glad you stood up for yourself, and that is where more data is because its the feeling of the joy for another beam and if you don't feel it does no more due to their its does say anything about you and it doesn't say anything about the other person. It's just not a moment of my data. What data as well you can. I know I know that I probably get a thorough look caviar here, because In the realm of horrors,
we take it. We don't want to create this energy that says, oh, you gonna feel it. You gotta be always in it all over the place. I realise that, but I think what data is a little different, I think, would deter you actually have to feel another lessons joy and its learning to feel another person's joy, so that is huge and we can learn that joy is abundant. It's always abundant someone. Always in some joyous stayed yeah. I think I'm pick it up what you're putting down here the under use this term, which I would be very careful of armour, so armor, I think, is actually generally very harmful for us. We we arm up armor up in response to the world when were younger, and then the work of the rest of our lives is often a kind of skilfully disarming, but
it sounds to me, like your approach to the borrowing. Joy here is a kind of very healthy psycho, spiritual armor that allows you to navigate the sucker genius of the world. with a little bit more resilience. Ah, yes, that is a good way to describe it. That's a good way to connect with it Maybe that naturally brings us to politics, because this is a flankers election and I suspect, People are thinking, okay, well, I ve been talking about new data in many ways here, but one of them is taken joy in other people's joy. I do not want to feel happy if the people with whom I disagree in a political. And are prevailing in some way. So How do I put this idea to use right now? So it's like, we were just say
If someone else prevails in whatever their strategies are, and you don't want them to that's now, we're gonna find more data, so don't even think about that. There's no more data in there. That's not what would it is about? What would details about? This is probably the best way. I can explain it as a black woman when I think about the civil rights, and I hear about the things that people had to go through. You know at lunch counter terrorism with holes of water being poured autumn in all of this and the level of blatant in your face racism that was happening to black people before the civil rights movement, I can get pretty angry and there was I am certain.
the degree of raids that was in the black community like it is now in order for this two, actually move in against a system that was that volatile towards them. You would have to seeing gospel music to the rafters in order to get their inspiration and the energy and the joy that you can do this. This is what it takes in order to do that so before they would do these big huge protest. They would go to church and sing too the rafters. It's to me. They were borrowing each other's joy. They were cultivating evading more enough data that would inspire them to stay through
every difficulty. They had to have an that's really. What would deter is for it is protection. in the level of suffering that humans exist in and we need to come back to that. You know using all these warrior kind of words, but it in a way cycle. Warrior sense. When you think about, social unrest and social injustice in any case, lady and all of it you know to have enough inspiration and willingness It will allow you to show up and even oh friendliness of matter allows us to love at this unworldly level and compassion allows us to be with suffering up close You need a joy to stay in their unique joy
in order to not get burned up and bitter and cynical and just angry all the time. You need the joy to be able to get up and do this day after day after day after day after day, and that's probably one of the great gifts, of being an african american person is that we are a people full of laughter and no matter how difficult things are. We can always get gather and laugh? You know I'm talking big loud, barely lab just huge laughter because its inherent in suffering that laughter has to be there and that part of what
I think it's important that we cultivate joy right now and stay with it. You know it's like it's the bridge. That's gonna get us through this difficulty and this ability to stay connected you use this beautiful, really inspirational example of of sink into the rafters in a civil rights context before going out to protests which at that time and now, but definitely at that time could involve risks too. Life and limb, I had a much more ridiculous example. Come to me, and as I contemplate your the strategy you're describing here, which is I never We played this game, but I remember, as a journalist covering the Pokemon go crazy, we're people would walk around collecting the using their phones to find these digital characters and hidden all over the place and swallowed up
collect these points and it seems to me, like you, do in some sort of very healthy tech version of that just walking around through the world like oh there's enjoy, got it the over there tat, video that etc, etc. I just heard about somebody graduate from high school and then there's I got it, but mine and Europe acting all that and using it being your meditation practice and as you like ever other citizen, this country watch all the craziness, that's true,
firing during the selection yeah. That's what you're doing that's all we have to do and we have to do it because suffering can kill us. It's not a joke. It can kill us if can dissolve us into such a level of bitterness and cynicism that we may know, depression is a killer basically, and so we don't want to be stuck in so much stuff in that we can't get up every day and go out and fight yet again struggle. Yet again, we want to be able to get up every day and face these things: No, I remember my own scenario when I always sin the younger President Bush.
I always send him met all the time. It's quite strange because. when he got elected. I was just boy lane, I was over the top enrage and I I believe the whole world was falling apart, if he were elected and then when you got reelected was even worse, but his presidency was it turning point for me and, anger and would deter a friend mine and I used to go to protest marches all over the country, they were all over the country, but most people Don't even know the amount of protest that were going on against the Iraq war all over the country and the hundreds of thousands of people that were showing but these protests marches because they were never beer put on the news. So I would go to some protest March
Your card or my mother, when I get home she'd say: oh Sorry, you didn't have your protest about like there were like half a million people there, but what I felt. between the marching, the bean with people that yelling getting that energy out the laughter at these marches I was so steeped in joy and saw rounded. in this sense that I'm not crazy I know what it is that I'm thinking here and I remember getting a sense. when I would go around my friends who did not go on these marches. They were so bitter, so angry saw disgruntled and I could never get them too. I say we need to go to some protest march. You should come with me. We're gonna have a
time and there'd be like nothing happens, that working nothing's happening there so angry, but What I begin to realise is my ability to stay. Upbeat and positive is what was changing. That is what was keeping me sending letters doing all this Everything that I had to do, keeping people together helping people who were Fraga Lane. All of that came because I had this upbeat energy, and many of my friends were- spiralling into this constant complaining, but they did not have the energy do anything other than that just complain, and so, if you think about it as big as the social, problems and difficulties that we have to face. It is gonna.
take a lot of energy, to move against the system. Like that, I mean, if we're talking about systematic racism, if you think about it,. To move against an entire system of being and not completely since the spiralling into a massive depression in occur. Treaty no massive economic mess. Then women have to approve the system, gonna, take a lot of energy and a lot of and a lot of work, a lot of being People and a lot of connecting and all kinds of things without the inspiration in the joy then you're, just gonna be angrier and angrier and angrier thine or have a problem with anger could believe me. I love anger, it's what motivates us and moves us, but anger can burn
ass. If we don't have it balanced with joy to keep us steady upright too, you have that Energy of the anger, that's gonna move you and you need the joy to keep you steady and balanced. You have done a phenomenal job of talking joy in sub optimal times I have one final question, which is. you said something early on that. I suspect is buzzing around in the back of the mind, Of listeners that I feel responsible suggests chase down too so that people can understand it and which you said you took a vow celibacy and yet you also mentioned you had a sandwich.
Came after. So why? What is that story? I know its not fully related legislating clothing there, so that I I serve the listener. Pay, I do said is, after my said, bird. So definitely after that, and it was several years after they they were teenagers, and I just thought it was just this personal choice. I made that I was very young. I was only thirty four and I it just felt like that was the choice that I needed to make at the time I just I don't know I just I don't know how to describe it, but relationships, and I were not necessarily it was just wasn't working out. Probably you know I had a lot to do with my growing up and saw this choice came at first. I thought
I was gonna, be just a miserable old woman. You know just met all the time, but it did turn out. That is all it just turned out to be the perfect choice. for me to make in my life, but it didn't do anything for my loving romantic comedy and it doesn't do anything for binding eaten to know there are people who coupled and they loved each other in their all hugging kissing, and all of that I love it and what I realise, is that I didn't have to give up my love for that. Just because I gave up the actual relations I still enjoy watching love and couples in just a connection that comes from that love and so yeah. That's just part and parcel of what more data does it help
thus be with the things that we really love and enjoy, and at the same time you know just gives us access to the freedom that comes with it. For you, these four swearing of romantic relationships, did it clear out time and energy to devote to Meditation Buddhism teaching, yes MA. Definitely, I was definitely going into a much deeper meditative practice, and so that was part of the choice that it was part of this connection. To wanting to practice, bit more deeper, well we're all benefiting from it good. So one last question here actually you're hanging off the baton now to Russia, Joan Halifax, he's gonna talk about equanimity and he words of waste advice. Anything as you have the aforementioned baton off.
I think what I would really hope that junction speak too she Joan is that the? How do we keep unanimity as strength and not have it came. Of move into indifference, how do we keep it alive and a beat and not dulled. I think that's the difficulty with but an empty, it can get a little dull, and so how do we keep it? Vibrant and upbeat perfect, that's very good for me to keep in mind that are going to interview with Russia. Thank you again. This has been the light. I have derived joy from sitting in talking to you. So I am grateful for a good thing. Dad I'm so glad that you, I'm so glad they invited me you now, so you know
these are difficult times and we need joy to get us through it, and so I am glad you guys doing this very nice big thanks too, to worry, really to that and the fund not only recording this podcast, but also Doing the video segments which will be used in the free elections, energy challenge, which we're gonna be running in the days leading up to election day. If you want to that challenge, as I mentioned at the top of the show, just download the ten percent happier AB today before the shout start, you can just using those meditations in their happy, you come and then they will see when the challenge itself Thousands of other meditated net starts again on Tuesday October, twenty seven big there. the team who helped with this together, Samuel Johns is our senior producer. Mercer Schneider men is our producer, are sound designer is met. Boeing of all violet, audio Maria were tell us our production coordinator. We get a ton of incredibly useful with
and insight and guidance from our Tpa colleagues. Such had been wrong. engine point may Toby unless Levin an extended. Thank you to all the folks, help put this serious together and the coming elections. maybe challenge Jade Western Jessica, Goldberg crystallizing Matthew happened: Julia Wolf, Nikko, Johnson, Allison, Bryant, Josh, Berkowitz, Clia, stagnating Lizzie, hope, Zuleika, Hassan com Donoghue Derek Haswell, even bright back and many more. Lastly, I would be remiss of I didn't send some bread. You'd out to my ABC News: College Ryan, Kessler and Josh CO hand we'll see you all on Wednesday. Four fascinating episode with country music, STAR, Brett Eldridge, who really goes there and takes us in his mind the mind of somebody who is doing a tunnel work on his own mental! Well, being we don't do it celebrity interviews these days, but this one absolutely worth it utterly fascinating. We're gonna see you on Wednesday for that.
Transcript generated on 2020-10-19.