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#299: Relationship Advice from a “Mega Monk” | Haemin Sunim


My guest today does a fantastic job of speaking in a not-at-all-annoying way about the inarguably important yet potentially very cheesy concept of self-love. Haemin Sunim is a Korean “mega monk” who has developed a massive online following and has written huge bestsellers. He’s also earned degrees from Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and is the founder of South Korea’s School for Broken Hearts. In this conversation, we talk about how perfection resides only in your mind, how a celibate monk learned to give great relationship advice, and how he manages his own relationship to ambition. We also have a fascinating exchange about enlightenment.

Where to find Haemin Sunim online:

Website: https://www.haeminsunim.com/en

Twitter: https://twitter.com/haeminsunim

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/haeminsunim/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/haemin_sunim/?hl=en

Other Resources Mentioned:

•   Love for Imperfect Things by Haemin Sunim - https://www.haeminsunim.com/books

•   Haemin Sunim’s School for Broken Hearts - https://www.haeminsunim.com/school

•   Song of Myself by Walt Whitman - https://poets.org/poem/song-myself-4

•   Ash Wednesday by T.S. Eliot - http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15133

Additional Resources:

•   Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live

•   Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide

•   Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/haemin-sunim-299

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC this is the ten percent happier Podcast and Harris hello. My guest today does a fantastic job of speaking in eight, not at all annoying way about the in our it important yet potentially very cheesy concept of self love name and surname is a korean mega monk who has EL, a massive online following and has written huge best sellers, including one called the things you can only see when you slow down he's, also earned degrees from Berkeley Harvard at Princeton and is the founder of South Korea's school for broken arts. In this conversation we talk about how per Action, resides only in your mind, how a celibate monk learn to give great relationship.
Eyes and how he manages his own relationship to ambition. We also have a fascinating exchange about enlightenment. Ok. So here we go now with payments on him well, nice to meet you. Thank for doing this. All things for inviting me. I should say good morning because its in the morning where you are and seven at night, where I am so thanks for get up early with us, you no problem When did you become a monk? I became a market I was in my maid twenties when I was very young. I was asking myself: why was I born as a human being some philosopher area described this feeling that you are thrown into movie theater without any kind of guidance. And then you are waking up. Ten minutes after movie has started, and so you have to figure things out all
Ok, now we're nineteen, seventeen o hush, I'm mail and all I am from south. Right. You know what I mean in all those things that you have to figure. It out so I was asking what's the purpose and where my and that led to my interests in religion in general, so for a long time in ours, looking for my own teacher, pursuing layman, some kind of spiritual awakening saw that made me major in religion. daddy's and then eventually led me to become a monk. That's a big move to become a monk because you're, basically saying never get married I'll, never have children. I'm gonna dedicate my life to this practice. Well, to me he was life or death kind of questions,
He wasn't as though I had options. I really really had to find out the answers. Otherwise I felt like I was gonna die or something you saw these questions of. Why even exist while for Emma, so I didn't have any other option, did you find the answer? I think so too. They re ask. What is the answer? your boy this world, to discover who you are. What you are actually is that unknowable fact what we are? It's interesting question because that which you want to become awaken too, has a quality of annoying this mystery
Because only then can the subject than object division disappears in this realm of unwillingness. So can you walk into the silence the space of silence where there is no more knowledge there's, no more objective quality about things. You know you cannot think of anything, and yet You are wide awake, open spaces and free. That's why you are so. Is it safe to say our job is to know who we are yet we are fundamentally unknowable yeah. Oh job is first of all let go of all the label that we ourselves are wearing in other identification, some we are identify with our bodies
our nationality race in all this pass lifetime experience things that in nature, in then traditions. You know we are asking this question: what was you before you were born? You know. Why was the face of Europe are true nature before you were born. And then also what you are ultimately not asking. What you are ultimately trying to experience is the state of on conditionality. Can I say so everything that's condition, knew that bind you they limit. You did became one of the elements that makes you stuck. It also means that you are sowing the seeds for violence as you, I can t find yourself with one elements as I am korean or I am
an American, you know what I mean that as soon as you do that it also means that you are dividing, and that creates the seed of violence. I was then, and so. If you can let go of all of this identification that you have been accumulating ever since you were born what is left, Because when we die, when we let go of our body, none of them will be important in all of them is impermanent. We cannot carry them. Thus, and then what is? What were you What was you before? You were born fires, and correctly- and I don't know much about them- these riddles. These unanswerable questions like what was your face before you were born. What's the sound of one hand clapping these there co ones and they used to
Liberally frustrate the logical conceptual mind, so they in effect you caught a break. The conceptual mind and get beyond concepts it. My at all, in the realm of accuracy, here, yeah yeah, because our logical mine wants to seek some kind of answer, and the answer has the objective of quality in something that you can observe and state you apart from you If you allow me, however, what we want to enter into the realm of non, do I let you in on the subject: object separation disappears. In order to do that, you have to put your thinking mine monkey mind resting a year to lead their thinking pigeon,
mind, make it quiet and then you see they all in a desert fast empty. Quality of awareness so. Then you can say all then, where is the beginning, and where is the ending of my awareness and then you will see that all there is no beginning and there's no ending. It is infinite, so you can examine the quality of awareness little by little, not for example, as my awareness located only within my body, we often identify ourselves with our body saw anything. That's inside my skin is me anything outside on. My skin is not me so often we imagine our awareness is contained within our brain. Then the question is: if that is the case, then
I should be only aware of what's inside of my body not outside fact that I can be aware of anything outside. You means that dog. quality of awareness it's also outside as well. You know it is in a way is everywhere Because you can be aware of them, so if you can just let go of you identification with your body, then quality of openness. Quality of on knowing this mystery and yet you are aware of this vast emptiness piece. It opens up. That's what you are I can hear I have this outer. Nobody knows, but I have a magical ability to channel the questions many listeners, I'm being facetious, but I'm guess now that some of our listeners or thinking, okay,
this guy he's talking about vast emptiness, awareness, peace, but my daily meditation, like I feel my breath coming in and going out for maybe three nanoseconds and then I'm planning lunch. Then I feel it again a few nanoseconds and then I'm thinking about whether I need a haircut and then you know cursing my political rivals and then I'm delivering glorious invectives to my boss. or had set her has nothing. It has no resemblance to the transcendence that you ve, just described, does I did too in every member state We thought it was that's exactly what I did. However,
I am aware that there is space between my thoughts, we're not just thought you know as soon as the thought disappears. There's emptiness there's a quiet moment, however, because we are saw a train or so accustomed to focusing on object. That is the thought. We'd be sound. That non do all in a moment where there's no more thought we as a human being. We cannot think twenty four hours straight right. If we do that, then our brain will become so. Irish and you may die purpose. However, if you just examine yourself, there is a plenty of moments when this one I just talked about the quiet to a peace. None conceptual moment it exists.
You don't think about. As I listen you talk about that I've been. I really are governed nodding, my head, because I agree with what you just said. That is so useful to know that, like you to struggle with the you know, humiliating horror show of discursive mind. I was retreat a few years ago with my teacher Joseph Goldstein and I was on a retreat, and I was complaining to him about how horrible my meditations practices and it said, are at cetera and started telling me about aid to bed, and I know this is a day, tradition than the one you're and but its batten expression I'm probably going to mangle, but I think it is a motto which I think translates into how amazing, and Joseph argument was when you wake up from distraction, maybe
once in a while use a motto to direct the mind to that exact moment that you're just describing, which is after the thought, has evaporated and the thought could be incredibly. Embarrassing you know, like you could be running through you know. I recently were buying a house. I've been running through, like mortgage calculations or, Oh some ancient desire. from you know, nineteen, seventy two or whatever, but whatever the thought It doesn't matter as it evaporates as it leaves there's a little bit a space there that aim how amazing that the mind is if you're awake to it. absolutely em it's empty. There is nobody home like you, can see if you're just a tuning the right way. It maybe we'll talk about it that there is this lesson,
use the phrase this yawning chasm of pure knowing that's their yeah. That's always the air. You know it's not something that you have to fabricate. something that you have to manufacture it's already there. That's the beauty of this of unconditional reality relevant and you already as soon as you can just detached yourself from your thoughts and you can easily do thereby becoming aware of your thoughts like becoming mindful of your thoughts as soon as you become mindful of your thought at the moment, you are stepping outside of your thoughts right, then there is the immediate release, immediate freedom from that thought. So
Yeah and then also the equality of amazing that my whole, you can look at beautiful nature right now, if I walk outside its full of beautiful, full foliage everywhere in Korea, and then, when you are, you know appreciating the beauty of trees. You mind become side, you know when you appreciating something, you cannot think about things. Your minds become momentarily very quiet, and then you appreciate beauty and why that is so amazing. Then right. There there's experience a man you already. So when you appreciate any kind of beauty can be art, he can be music. Now you can be sure
the into your mind, has to be very quiet to be able to appreciate, and maybe that's why we want to go to review. That's why you want to growing a miracle concert things like that so they all minds can become temporarily quite yeah. We were be blown away quite literally absolutely, yeah right, and that is like ethic. Nirvana is often described, as a blowing out like a blowing out of a candle and that's it in some ways what we want. I think I'm stealing this notion from Doktor Mark Epstein is a friend of mine. So with a hat Tipp to mark part of us wants whether we know it or not. Part of us wants to not exist because we will We want a gambling voice inside of our head to shut up and that's what draws us, as you said, to the grave do you have a museum or nature any sort of?
that is on offer right in the beginning, we want to get rid of the hammering voice. You see that as a problem in that which blocking us from experiencing none do all state of freedom right However, you realize that it is just the manifestation of your own awareness. So you begin to realise that it's not a problem it is just like any other thing that you see you can look at yourself. I know you can get plant. You can get your lamp in anything Eve Manifest, and yet, after a few minutes or few seconds, it disappears. So it is beautiful magical display of our mind. You know, and it happens without you doing it I did not dare to if you can control your thoughts,
hammering thought then Yes, you're right, because you can control it. You know, in order for me to call Michael, is my car. I should be able to accelerate, or I should be able to break any time. I want. If I couldn't, then somebody else's cart, you know somebody else's driving my car. I believe you Looking at your mind, does hammering thought you just appears without you controlling you. Never intend to have that kind of thought emerge right, so emerge without you doing. the thing and then disappear without doing anything, it is magical display. of your own awareness. and you are watching this movie of life and then the queen.
It is in a what is that which is watching it? That's the glass! Yes having you can ask yourself the question this too comes from Joseph to me, through, I think, channel through zone can, which is a tibetan style of practicing. You can ask yourself the question, then you're sitting and meditating watching her thoughts or sounds or whatever, whose know what is knowing this what is knowing all of this and then you can ask, then you can ask another question, which is who's asking a question. Absolutely I mean this is the ultimate questions. You know what is being aware, the EU can be mindful of your thoughts. You can be mine, of your bodily sensation you can be, full of any kind of feeling arises and disappears, and then there comes a moment when
you realise there is no more object to become mind for love You have a maybe one minute or two minutes in meditation. Everything is so quiet, so serene And yet there is no more new thought arises. Momentarily it's quiet, and there's no more bodily sensation that demands immediate attention than that which knows remains alone right. It's still awake still alive. That which knows, then what happened is that which no become all Where are these self? You mind, become aware of your mind. You alone is becoming aware of its own awareness, that's the returning to your home. Returning to your journey.
So earlier you described being a young person feeling like these questions of Who am I what's my job on the planet? These big questions were like life and death. You said, and that drove you in two becoming a buddhist monk. So here you are in your late forties. If those issues are not what's driving you any more. What is driving you it's driving me is my work I started skilful broken hearts. So what happened was you know? I was into this kind of method, vision and wanted to find out what happened even after I die. You know all this big questions right and then my teacher, my put his teacher. He has his own people in the tap the PAN New York sake, thirty minutes outside of Manhattan.
so I on weekend I went there and serbian, especially for Sunday morning, service. The congregation is largely a korean American or a korean immigrant community and saw people will come They have their own issue, they have their own problems in our everyday lives and very challenging. It can be health issue. It can be relationship problems, all kinds. So, even though I was very young, like twenty six, twenty seven people would come. to me and ask you doctor in their forty and fifty six days in? What am I supposed to have this problem or in I have their problems, so
I realise that the conversation why we you and I just had have very no or very old room in the pursuit of that person doesn't want to know anything about. You know why they were born days. They want to solve the problems with their child or relationship problem. You know they are about to go to hospitals have a huge operation. You know, how can I maintained? in this difficult situation, so I became engage at this became my work and then And I remember at some time in my thirty's my very revere teachers in Korea and some members- Who is she went to him and asked very nice very similar kind of questions that is I'm. Having are huge problems with demand marriage. I don't get along with my husband's and problem like that, but he gave hurry philosophical kind of answer
I not down to earth both more like you know thing is impermanent attachment- is value of that kind of things in nature. She wasn't very helpful at all, so I thought Maybe you know the buddhist monks, they have to do different way of doing things. So I decided to open up sort of non religious school where people who are going through difficulties in their lives. They can come and share their difficulties. So one of the first meetings I remember, is apparent who are raising child with disability? I call and see. If there is anybody can common ones to share I'm a wonderful things happen in, like one mother could just discover her son.
Ass, a disability and her son is only eight month old and every day she wakes up, and she is thinking about throwing herself with her baby out of her apartment. You not like, and so that my son doesn't have to go through all this difficult lives ahead of him, and then she was able to talk to other parents. Their parents who went through all that process and they could give her a lot of encouragement in other ways, to deal with different situation, governmental resources and then support group all of that, and so she was able to for the first time find some hope to me. It was incredible in a huff, so I wanted to
do more of their. So I started many different kind of grouping on people who just recently got the voice for people who have terminal illness. People who are mentally are having a very as for especially young people, in their twenties and thirty's, they ve been looking for a job and yet they couldn't find any sharp and therefore, their self esteem, is so low and they don't know what to do with this. So I would just him by different group of people who are going through difficulties in their lives, and then we were able to do that self. Every years we have about three thousand people coming in to our school and their receiving benefit, so that became my work. This may sound like a bit of a tough question, but actually mean it more from the point of view, reality than scepticism, but is it hard for you to answer in Europe celibate monk you're, not in a romantic released? ship, you don't have kids you're, not
participating in the mainstream economy. So is it hard for you to give advice to people who are struggling with there, spouses or their kids or were worried about establishing a career. Well, I'm a human I don't think I hear him anything exuberant different, so the thing is today. I begin to see patterns like You are so attached to your own view in your marriage life. Is that certain, where you have to do things and they can create some conflict? and yet you cannot be open and become sympathetic to what the other person is going through and I began to see a pattern and they talk about the patterns and he worked so on top of it. It's fine for me not to know the answer, because they're up,
any other people. You know they can bring out their own experience, so I'm there to bring people together and giving them the opportunity to help each other much more of my conversation with Heymann sent him right after this staying in full has never been more important. Information is coming in a fast than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bride milky from eighty see news in every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes. Straightforward reporting I interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust always credible, always solid start here from ABC News. Twenty minutes every week day, smart speaker or your a podcast app.
So I know they call you a mega monk. How did you get to this point? Oh well, back in the two thousand ten, I was teaching small liberal college. So chooses, and at the time on people told me there is a new social media call twitter. So I didn't know what he was so at first. I just follow like the way President Obama in all he twits what he did on that day. You know whom he met things like that in nature side. I did exactly the same enough. Today I met my students and I went to my school cafeteria. Then I realise that this information is really really boring and nobody should be interested in that. So I changed and then thought, maybe you know from my own meditations. I could see some of the pattern in my mind,
and some of the words that I wanted to say to myself, some other kind words compassionate words, so I tweet that Europe and then people responded very positively. I was thinking about writing a book in turn that into a broken, and my first book was on the things you can see. Only when you slow down and airport became massively choose best seller in Korea. And that's became the book of the decade so and then he was translated and then publish in number of different countries, But in the meanwhile I was still engage with traders and they spoke and things that in nature. I'm curious, you know we ve done plenty of episodes here about the pitfalls of technology of addiction, to your phone being addicted to social media. How do you interact
stick technology, while endeavouring to build large, followings and post on a regular basis out. You know running into some of the obsession, compulsion and depression and foam? Oh and all the other stuff that can happen if we spend too much time with our social media, I think that's where meditation becomes very handy That is, if you are overly obsess or involve you're such a media then become aware all this is very unhealthy. Maybe I should step away and in all, maybe go out exercise or walk around in nature or a good that one hour early. So I would say that. You become aware of your mental state, as you are doing it, but died, and technology is, in my opinion, is a neutral in that it can be used for negative purpose, but it can be
as for positive purpose in life, for example, Europe in a ten percent happier met. It is enough people who engaging that can receive enormous amounts of benefits right all because of technology, so that it depends on how you use it In my mind, I want everybody to know that I do not pay you to say that I have heard so another way they You ve become so popular, not only in Korea, but the world is writing books and one of the book say you re, that really is intriguing to me and that I wanted to spend some time talking about today is about profit. cynicism and some of the beauties of imperfection China look at the title here. Love for imperfect things is the name of that book. There's a quote you said that inspired you from a sixth century china,
he's and master, I believe in the quota is true. Freedom is being without anxiety about imperfection. Can you talk about a little bit. Yeah, you know what You are completely awakened and become in touch with your own nature. You see that everything that thought you label as a problems. It is just the manifestation of yourself nature and therefore you can relax. You don't have to be self says about. You know, what's call imperfections, I think that's where this town master their master in China was talking about, but in every day, in a for every day, in human being, just like me, I will say that there is a beauty in import imperfections. If you go out and look
trees, trees are never straight. Never vertically straight you always crooked, there's, always movement. I think that creates unique character. That's what makes it so special for a long time. I thought, myself, I I am living like a child. When I'm going out and giving a talk, some more migrate masters, they would Say in a very respectable You know very, very adult like way, you know however, when I give a talk, I tend to become little more free and joyful, and for a long time. I didn't like that. You know about me. I thought that's not what people expect from a monk then I realized that the people who are following,
my twitters or in our social media, in precisely because I have their quality, so I think it has been the journey of embracing accepting my own imperfections and then, when you can do that, and I think the real special practice is right there, this issue of protectionism, a riddle for me this are the co online coins and enough its appropriate, even call it that one other riddles I've been mauling ever since my first encounter with Buddhism is Can you strive to be excellent. while also not getting hung up on perfectionism and does the not getting hung up on perfection.
Lead you to a resignation like the idea of accepting your imperfections, loving. Your imperfections does that is that, like giving up in some way,. You know when we are thinking about imperfections. We tend to focus on ourselves. I am imperfection things that I do is imperfect. However, when you are thinking about other people in how I can help them, my motivation is trying to help them. Then the focus is in so much on me. It's about them whether they are receiving health. So if we think less about us else and more about people we actually helping. Then this question becomes irrelevant. You are helping other people, there is the feeling of engagement, thing feeling of goodwill from our heart.
as long as we maintain that motivations, I think we'll be able to set the situations me am I mean we have to do our best. Given the circumstance, however, a lot of us, we are imposing too much expectations. onto ourselves and yet we feel like when we don't deliberate. We are a loser, we're failure, but just check with your motivation. What is your motivations? Are you there to help other people, then, even if the person was receiving help me and I didn't receive- choose your mouth and yet the other person may be say all. This has been a great help like, for example, in whenever I give up their talk. I sometimes give up bad, probably talk, and I was thinking to myself of this- was really terrible talk I just gave, but after their innovation
will come up to me and they say, oh how wonderful this talk was and how much beneficial this has become. So you never know. Well, I completely agree that being of serve two other people can pull you out of your own self obsession and yet, even though I try to. Put that wisdom to work and my own life. I still. but I dont think I'm alone on this guy huh. Up on my own imperfections you know not liking. The way my face looks in the mirror, as I approach fifty or I didn't hit them, whereas I wanted to head on my latest exercise, class or right, a book in that last chapter. I did my utter. told me, it sought to whatever it's still very hard for me to not get hung up on these imperfections, and then I can
Toddling back and forth in my mind, between wanting to, as you say, sort of, accept, imperfection and allay their hand wanting to do things that are great and I get kind of confused. In the middle there sometimes well, you can look at it differently. That is all While I still have a room for improvement in a tomorrow. When I go back and start exercising, you know, I still have a room for improvement and I can that get there. You know quickly as quickly as I wanted. However, well there tomorrow. I can do it better right, so you can see that as a imperfections or you can see that has room for future improved But he's my motivation to improve, because I wanna get perfect or is it you know, so it does come a little bit to some
fiction that we may harbor of the possibility of perfection yeah. I think the result isn't so much whether the work is perfect or not. It's more hassle with state of your mind, is you're mine, peaceful he's your mine content with what is So, if you are artificially imposing certain kind of expectation I need to in a hit this number c, how artificial this is. The random you chose this number and you are in asking this to yourselves, and this is the play, that's it Firstly, the reason why I say is magical play of arm awareness so enjoy this artificial, entertaining quality of imposition that you made to yourself.
And see if you can improve tomorrow, there there's nothing wrong with this. I think we should strive to become good at what you are trying to deliver to other people however, if you can also take not too seriously, we shouldn't take that goal to seriously and then this in mind of tight like quality, then I think you can still find joy in it. Coming to my from me right now, is listen. You talk about this is theirs I once red and will not be able to faithfully reproduce a great quote from Walt Whitman, the american poet of the civil war era. Any talk about being both in and out of the game. Ts Elliot talks about learning to care and not care, and I think those quotes speak to the paradigm I hearing from you of like. Can you do your best, while also seeing
that? It's all, as you said, a magic show yeah yeah Oh, you are in the movie as the main actor, but also become aware that this is a movie. So you do your best to play that role in that movie in the meanwhile, you become a perfectly aware. This is just a movie and that's where the elements of humor comes in. I think one of the reasons why great master you know, like I hear in his dollar Roma. She loves to laugh. He has a lot of humour in it precisely because he knows this is also movie, I mean not to reduce the seriousness of
every day human tragedy in that's not what I'm trying to say here, but what I'm trying to tell you is that, ultimately speaking, when you see things as it is, if you don't absorbed in the activity of your mind, if you can just step outside and look at it- and you will see that this is too sir in a movie that has very little or no control me control in it, and- and this is not some- this insight about the magic show that Europe. having is not something that you need to move to the Himalayas and where nothing but loincloth fur, several millennia in order to perceive we can have the insight about impersonal. Nature of awareness, just in a five minute, humiliating meditation session in our living room on the couch by noticing how little
control. We have over our thoughts right right, so you can even say in my thoughts. It is exactly thoughts there are just like when you are setting out in a coffee shop and looking at people walking by you don't say my person Those people who are working have even call that as my something right, it is as though a person walking passing by. That's what I mean by not stop. I yourself a bit thought Get me so interesting that were or talking about here is the balance between. Being able to have these insights again, are pretty readily available and also transcendent in that he kind of get you out of the movie. It's a little bit like taking the red pill and that movie the matrix he gets.
See the matrix. On the one hand you can have those inside and on the other hand, you do still have to participate in invention or reality. You still have to do your best, because your boss, may be breathing down your neck about yourselves numbers or whatever it is, and so you need to be able to be in and out of the game in that way, right right, yeah, absolutely that's you know my and our traditions. We talk about body so far away You know what my body suffice, fully aware, enlightened being. Who knows the true name, you're a reality as it is and yet he or she is fully participating in everyday life. That's precisely the same quality that you just talked about his absolutely absolutely true, sir. Do you ever find yourself?
and we talked about this a little bit but with Europe's success on social media, but now that you have had and continue to have so much success in conventional reality in the mainstream caught me as a monk. Do you ever find yourself getting sucked in two, I don't know comparing yourself to other people or criticising yourselves for wanting more success in wanting to get on this you're that your wanting a good review or wanting to know what you're, The numbers are on your last book, etc, etc. You find yourself getting sucked into that. Yes who have bought them. I do that, and I am also aware that I'm doing so natural- We cannot help. However, you also know that You are doing. So you're not taking things so seriously.
and also check with your motivation. What is your motivations? Why are you doing this? Are you doing this just to become famous just to make a lot of money, or are you doing this in some way, because you want to help other people in some way you want to connect with other people. I read an interesting thing that you said that relates to this discussion, which is now you said that its occasionally youth, for you to re, read your own books to remember your own advice to apply it in. actual life. Yes, it's silly, but you know I cannot live up to my own writing. He knew her, so there is a gap between what I'm saying and what I'm doing- and I am fully aware of that, and I think that lovely perfect things came out of that in a realization. The body suffer takes the odds and ends of time to become Buddha, precisely because he
or she has to close that gap. That is between what are you already know, and why do you are doing in every day? So that's the real work. between what you already know, and you know whether you are surely carrying out what you are preaching so to me, that's the real task, and then I just want to go back to what it is in the top of our earlier. That is this in an out. You know, there's two dimension there One is unconditional and non dual and another one is in everyday: do a life subject and object in the beginning. You know I thought that in order to get to non dual state, I have to try very hard, and so, as a result of my you know, effort as a result of my meditation
long and arduous, meditation, somehow I'll be able to arrive at liberation, arrive at thirty or awakening, then I realized that if there was the case then the fruit, the result of your meditation has to be also conditional. You know what I mean, because it is dependent upon the cause, you don't like hard work, many hours of many patients and therefore, if gave, Two liberation, then, that liberation. That awakening is also conditional however, what I was you know looking after was unconditional, something that's unbind right, which means that it is something that is already here
What are you trying to make an effort to get their right so the book in the things you can see only when you slow down You have to just slow down your mind and the two point that your mind become very high and paws pause for a while, and then you being to see that everything that I was pursuing? I was in the midst of it it's like a you're in grand Central New York station asking people. How can I get to New York? What do I need due to arrive in New York City that was done And then I was asking in a forest
guy, I don't know whether it makes sense it it. I I get it, but it also frustrating because it's another paradox. We do have to work at our meditation so that you can let go of Europe. It's your effect. That's right! That's frustrating, because whenever I hear somebody say will have, even if you know. Awakening nirvana whatever it's already here. Yes, but I don't see it because I'm thinking about lunch, so I get frustrated with myself, because I should what to see this thing. That's already here this not thing this no thing, It is already here and yet I can't bigger them so worried about. You know, like you know what for my latest score, unpalatable yeah.
But the thing use their frustrations, frustration, the enormous health terms into our you know, is regional energy. I want to see in that awakening this reality of honour additional realm. The state of complete freedom is supposed to be right in front of me bright, and yet I cannot see it what's wrong with this, and this can become engine that can push you to lead
go eventually. Let go of your effort because it for a long time, even though in a conceptually I he just like you, I was able to understand it is right in front of me. I was suddenly in a very subtle way, still striving still saying that all this cannot be. It has to be something better. It has to be something more peaceful recipe for something more if untasted Gallina. So in my earlier twenties, I was looking for a group in their master and Tibet turn in a teacher for can give me that supernatural enlighten experience in a spectacular experience in opening of condolence opening of all kinds of supernatural inertia. You can Go to the up land different realm ended
acting with the different bodies upper in all of this I thought was enlightenment, but then I realized that all of this is impermanent. That's not what was looking for again. I am saying this as somebody who has not yet found what he's looking for. Unlike I imagine you I'm guessing now,. I can understand how big mountain top experiences. Unleashing the flood. Gates of come the linear, whatever it is All these experiences You can read about if you feel like reading spiritual journalism, how that would be to miss the point here because you want to get somewhere. That's the beginning of your assumption. Is that right now is not it.
you know like I have to go and obtain whatever that I'm looking for right- and this very assumption is conditional- to get to the point where we can let go and see. What's right in front of us is gonna. Take some fresh. Sure am effort and some suffering it seems to me. Well, if that's what you projecting? Yes, precisely, that's what are you gonna get? Ok, let's us! I just wanna help so the half, so let us go back to what he said so as soon as you become mindful of your thoughts in whatever that bothers you, then what happened to that thought and then the state of you
loyal listeners will have heard me say what I'm about to say before, but at said worth anybody hearing this again, which is a huge shifted. My meditation of the past couple years has been. Noticing, when I wake up from whatever distraction with some, craven voice inside of my head, our ambition. planning whatever it is. I have started to at first it felt very contrived, but over time it's actually feels pretty genuine to view these inner characters with some warmth and for me, the combination of kind of just viewing. Whatever comes up as these ancient neurotic patterns that are trying to serve me, perhaps unskilfully definitely unskilfully enter you know blow them a kiss and just
back to whatever it is. Is the object of my meditation, my breath, phrases of loving kindness, meditation or just an open awareness over over and over again without much of it. gender knowing that I'm not gonna, probably achieve story or enlightenment tour. cancer or whatever. You want to call it on my schedule that basically my practice now ok fairly good. Then let's say you, you talked about this. You know the feeling of war. yes, no Karuna in a feeling of this compassion right? Yes,
Then, usually you know this compassion is directed towards something object right, but momentarily. Can you just let go of that object of your compassion and is focusing on this quality of compassion. Does warmth within your mind right in this want? Do you have any kind of thought in it? I'm asking you ok now am I I'm gonna, give you an answer. That's a little off subject, not off topics a little off exactly what you're talking about, but I think it's related and you can reach across the planet and slap my wrist if I'm taking us down a rat all, but a really useful piece of meditation guys I gonna retreat- I was on a few weeks ago, is occasionally just drop.
in a note into your mind, that whatever you're seeing is just nature but cycle to step in some way or maybe for like boxing. This is too much of an aggressive metaphor, but a one too, of a one too. I just want some warmth and to just seeing that there's no home anyway. This is all just nature right as soon as you become aware that everything is just nature, then what is the very quality of your mind. For a no yes nanosecond, yet spacious, yes, spaciousness right right, and you are not bound to any thoughts right. There's a release of your thought had wide open, spaciousness right,
Yes and back, and then you can you see if tat spaciousness has any kind of limit? Is there any wall TAT you pumping took if you just keep going spaciousness? Is there any kind of limit none? Right by incorrectly and unless they address spaciousness in this unbound free spaciousness, tat moment of your mind, can eat just expand continuously. In my mind, a cat. Because then I start thinking about lunch again or by whatever it is. I have my next meeting or something like that. So, but that's the story, I'm telling myself. Right, but immediately right after your story, another nanosecond, that's right! Yes, yes, yes,
and then you realize that that the thoughts does lunch thought is. It came out of than nanosecond it so nature absolutely so you know when you as soon as these also nature, there's a release. There's a freedom. You don't have to be so caught up and. You know: release the space of wide open emptiness. an enjoy? It's everywhere? You know it's. It's the young, not you its infinite. It's free! And realise that it is also very quiet, peaceful, there's, no subject versus objects, it's all just all in it. On Unbound.
I like that, because it doesn't have any kind of objective quality we often miss out, because there's not is no fun to focus on empty space. However, if you can pay attention eventually, you'll be able to see that that's true nature, because now it doesnt have a object. You also means that is not going to disappear, because it has not been emerge at the object. It's not going to disappear. I don't quite follow that think. Like this wide open this empties spaciousness there we just talked about. Was there anything you can focus on. Was there anything while you there, you keep using me subject
Object, you know in a dualistic state in which most of us exist. There is a subject me the source of sort of infinite subjective, and then there are objects. For me, when I notice that you think that's happening. My mind is just nature that there's not there's nobody home, I'm not directing the show it's just that that duality collapses, just for like a nanosecond? Yes, yes, so let's familiar with that nanosecond in that nanosecond, do you have any specific spot that you can focus on. Is there any kind of obsolete, no now right the inner there objects that are arising within it literally later were immediately after that is as soon as the thought thought drops
and then right before new thought emerges yeah there is this man was seconds of nor thoughts in this moment of no thoughts is there any point that demands you're attentions these new object that you can focus on. There is none because his empty, and because there is no optic immense there's no division between our second subject. There is nowhere for your mind to latch onto. Nowhere for your minds to abide in its everywhere.
Before I let you can, I change that it assumes a hurried if we ve been on the mountain love, so we ve been on the map, but are no no there's, no reason for you to apologize whatsoever. I brought us here, but we ve been on the mountain top for a second. We ve been talking about big meditative stuff. Let me just descend into the marketplace for a second. and I hope that I can ask these questions in a way that will just connect in some way to the what we just discussed. But as you and I were. guessing earlier, we did you, you find yourself in an interesting For four monk, which is talking to people about sometimes about their love life, for example, and One question I wanted to get you before we wrapped up here is. How do you
define love. As you see things, what is love, I think one of the wonderful expression of love is- attention, when you are in love with something when you love your child. When you love your painting, when you love your whatever that young in a loving, then you pay attention and when you are paying attention to that, you don't think about like when you are looking at your own baby, son or daughters. Leaping a night, you open the door and then you watch your son. He was sleeping quietly and there is a feeling of warmth and love, and but at the moment you I just only paying attention to your son you're, not thinking about your thought. Its is so when our mind become quiet and then can pay attention to whatever that
is there in the moment there is a quality of love? If I can just pay attention to you without concerned about me enters really totally politician to you. There is the element in a quality of love, and the problem is when we think that we already know the other person we stop paying attention, we stop asking questions in. I know everything there is to know about their person and therefore I am not curious about this person and thereby we pay less and less attention to that person, and so I think love has a lot to do with our attention that does connect to what we were discussing. But spaciousness in the impersonality of awareness, because under this
view of love when you're paying full attention to somebody else. You drop away absolutely and then there is a deep connections between the person than you and the commission that has always always existed. notice, how different this conception of love is from the version we get from Hollywood or from love songs, pop music, where it's about You know fixated on the color of somebody's iser, the way you let me feel, or the way summit dance is the first case than all of their dinner. in a feeling of alive and this right of up,
you like I'm alive, but if you are looking at this feeling of a likeness, it actually comes, isn't related to your attentions. I don't think you'll love has alot, do with ownership, I own new and you on me, but in life is impossible to own anything. You can appreciate but you can their own anything, whether you can pause and pay attention and appreciate what's in front of you and you will discover love there. Well, you ve been very generous with your time. I really appreciate you were taken all this time to chat. It's been fascinating and I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. So much. big. Thank you again, really appreciated that conversation was fascinating. Thank you as well to all the people who worked so hard
make the show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer, Moorish, Lighterman and DJ cashmere. Are our producers jewels Dodson is our associate producer. Are sound designers met buoyant from ultraviolet audio Maria were tell is our protection coordinator? We get him Massive amount of extremely helpful input from our Tpa colleagues, such as gent point, Nay Toby. Levin had been Reuben and finally is always a big thank you to my We see news guys rang Kessler co hand will soon on Wednesday, four a fascinating episode with Dermot teacher named Body, Doran, who's, gonna, talk about the connection between the dogma and indigenous wisdom,
Transcript generated on 2020-11-11.