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#317: Non-Preachy Ethics | Jozen Tamori Gibson


We’re diving in on another Buddhist list today. One of the many things I like about the Buddha is that, as far as I can tell, he pretty much always aims his messages, even the hard-to-swallow ones, at the pleasure centers of the brain. Even when he’s talking about ethics, which could come off as preachy or overly abstemious. Today, we’re going to talk about the Five Precepts. The Precepts are kind of like the Buddhist version of the Ten Commandments. Except, as you will hear, there is, by design, an enormous amount of flexibility in how you can interpret and apply these precepts. And undergirding it all is, as mentioned, self-interest. The reason not to steal or lie or kill is that, in the end, it protects your mind. My guest is Jozen Tamori Gibson, who has trained in the Sotō Zen and Theravada traditions, is on the Teacher’s Council for New York Insight Meditation Center, and teaches in a variety of other settings, including the Insight Meditation Society. Jozen’s pronouns are they/them. Quick note before we dive in: Jozen lives on a busy street, so you will sometimes hear a little bit of background noise.

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Where to find Jozen Tamori Gibson online:

Website: https://www.dharma.org/teacher/jozen-tamori-gibson/

Social Media:

•   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jozentamorigibson/?hl=e

Book Mentioned:

•   “Experience of Insight” Audiobook: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Experience-of-Insight-Audiobook/1645470377

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/jozen-tamori-gibson-317

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see this Is the ten percent have your pipe cast down here again we're diving and on another buddhist list today, I know that many things I like about the body is that, as far as I can tell you pretty much always aimed his messages even the hardest to swallow ones at the pleasure centres of the brain. Even when he's talking about ethics, which could come office, preachy or abstemious today, we're gonna talk about the five precepts, the preset for kind of like Buddhist version of the ten commandments, except as you will hear there is by design an enormous amount of flexibility in how you can interpret and apply these precept And under girding, it all is, as mentioned earlier, cell
interest their reason not to steal or lie or kill. Is that in the end it protects your mind. My gun This goes end to Molly Gibson, who has trained in the those then and terawatt. Traditions is on the teachers. Counsel for the New York in sight met it. Asian Centre and teaches In a variety of other settings, including the insight meditation society, Josephine's pronouns, are they and them and equipment. before we dive in Jos and lives on a busy street, so he was I have here a little bit of background noise, but it's not a big deal Here we go now with Jos End tomorrow, Gibson chosen nice to meet you virtually to meet you as well to thank you for having me so I'm interested, when you are chatting with folks from my team about what we should talk about in this package? You chose the precepts, what are the precepts and why? Do you think that was important to discuss
first of all that the first question: what are the precept is the question for me in this, embodied type of work They saw their the press, Instead, I am referring to what a typical five that we may take and were on and inside a personal retreat, something that votes may familiar. They said it inside meditation society, for example, and so these five I'll the quickly I see them in Polly. I think it's in from either to honour the party language in the linear in that way, coming from India and really honouring the ancestors and lineage that land here to be in his conversation with us stand. So there is the first pilot teapot tar Domini see car by DOM some mighty army, which is roughly
translated into. I undertake the Chinese to refrain, found, destroying living beings. the second precept at dinner? Gonna! Wait They seek up Adam somebody on me his eye and had taken training to refrain from then arrest is within that first word in this case I deem Madonna stealing or take that which is not freely given to undertake the training to refrain from stealing or taken that which is not really given may, soon etc without Medici carpet on somebody on me, I to take the train to refrain from sexual misconduct. Most so Wada, where Domini seek up Adam Somalia me, I'm gonna, take the chair need to refrain from forced speech? And then Sure Da Mayor
my job, I might that tunnel Domini see carpet arm. Some idea me the training to refrain from taking in toxic, hence with as carelessness and cloud the mind, and so these are guy. posts. For me, they haven't been for my life, but they ve been guideposts for me since, said good Dama re enter use themselves to me in this life everything that has been going on this past Me twenty even before that is this. Questioning not only of war. are our global ethic, so these precepts with? Can I see le these moral ethics more conduct
global, more ethics, what our local, more ethics, him and kind But what is my own, what are my own? How do I embody these? How do I so what locally and how does that branch out was that impact one is out effect these teachings have been very powerful for me since formerly starting practice. Some seventeen years ago now they ve been appeal, we a beautiful struggle. The event relationships they ve been packed it. where I live. How I live, who I live with what I eat where I eat, when I listen to what I share. The so much is all connected to this. investigation of the self, the self in I life. What is this? I, though, here
that's pointed to in practice I put in his brain something that self NAFTA, Does this intersection interplay in as is dancing beautiful creativity in how do I honour that, in this relative, life and my conversation with you, then. Let me get out of the way to a question that I think may have popped up in some the minds of the list: there, are some people listen to the show may say to themselves. You know I am interested in meditation in large part because a bad experience with organised religion, and This reminds me of the commandments. And sounds like a bunch of rules. I need to follow I so what Have to do with my meditation practice exactly The beautiful question is a teaching that the Buddha emphasise which is a
Patsy call in a heap she is. investigation, learning for self, going through in investigating what this means for you. It is a reminder that these are not rules These are guides now rules in this. Sense, if you are lay person now. If you are a monastic, if you are living in a monastic way, there's a way in which this can be expressed, As rows of living but a way of living? you have the choice to recognise how this land, for you have is feels for. You Not commandments offerings suggestions with energy, obey he particle comes. if we as self come investigate what is
School asking for this sense of where you said right before asking that question there. Late get out the way. Wasn't you getting out the way will escape this question at the way. In a sense, for how can we recognise when we this conditioning of ours, gets in the way of us lending our elves over to investigating, where the blockages, the hindrances and I from time to time. We may hear some sound in the background and that's it as I live in a very densely packed waited area with a lot of beings? Doing these things, it's a beautiful way to practice and so on engaging even with that, engaging will rise is not being upset, understood
what's happening in the outside world, how it impacts was going on inside? I appreciate you describing it as us: a lay people as a guide, rather than strict rules, was, I think, may be the best way to help us understand. That would be to walk through each of the precepts and then- and get us it cause you listed of vat, array of areas. Impact it in your life by these guides by these precept. So, let's start with the first one, which is cut it the buddhist version of Thou shalt not kill. Frame from taking another life. How are we to understand that, and does it go deeper than the obvious, We believe a goes deeper than the obvious I'll just say: that's, my practice is coming from two. If we can be
by Marian his way to lineages the terawatt inside which his farm Mary. I janshah. typhoid, lineage, also Marcy, sighed out lineage, and then the subtle then menu. I just name that Catalan, the time you'll come into play when speaking up my understanding from these two different perspectives. Which are all one. So, overall, what been taught, and whatever see and what I've come to understand from an embodied place This is not something that I think about, but is something that I feel is being felt in the belly and heart at precepts, all about not harm. See over all seem if you will about these precepts. and saw yes not killing. It's in the arm, the suitors with a bullet
about. literally not taking a life in these steps up how that comes to be from the thought process to the section two, the act, the tension. All of that. One of those is breaking the pre even the thought can be so called breaking the precept. I saw that became interesting to me and I started to feel into how there please out even in conversation when were in conversation. Am I jockeying for position too at someone off in conversation. I am, I in a sense, killing, there's train of thought in their offering in that way, I'd soldiers, the very grotesque piece of it, which is killing a living being and then D.
is that we really made even take for granted the lack of connection or lack of community the lack of relationship with how we limit or how we invade or dominate a conversation Domini space. And this is- near and dear to my heart, being of a civilized Body or race lies black by you also companies, ancestry and. There's an assessed rule. Familial understanding of. Not only not harm but uttering resiliency and care. In that way, that's taught that's passed down. and it gets paid out and how we eat and what we eat.
But when I bring in my factors of this practice four years ago. Come vigour. I envy again not so much, for I didn't go wind to it because of health reasons. but I feel healthier manage. Levels have shifted in something about this- that I believe, has to do with not just my lack of partaking in the meat industry is that whole system- The energies and the intentions of how we mass produce and how we share food, the end jeez oath butcher. That may not understand how to be connected with the animal. In a way that is wholesome and a sharing of that energy that thank its past to my end question about food. We are all g in that way, while sharing in that way
being passed now is being passed through So this is not so much about the not eating of the animals is? How are we treating animals plants, food, water, the whole of it how we sustaining how we. adding to. The resiliency this earth, says: human beings, which are not separate from it air water, fire, he brought a vague in his am I Had a similar transition vagaries why I stopped eating animal products, although I do occasionally have some ice cream But do you know there are many? I use this term somewhat. Lila Devout Buddhists who dewey
Having the Dalai Lama comes to mind, our mutual teacher, Joseph Goldstein, comes to mind and why no one of the things that I have tried to tread very lightly with as a region is being unite. Pick some of my brothers and sisters begin where can be a little judgmental. I know that, for me before becoming a vague, and I, when I heard the word vague and I just thought of. we're Nancy, Asian and self righteousness. So I brought it up the vague innocent thing and I want it might be triggering some people listening. So are we bad people or bad buddhist bad meditative? Will you know I have a stake once in a while? No, no, not at all is poised to our attitude, and I love when you can occur waded mean CS in itself business, those are very different things to me, and so.
I think, there's a way which we need to centre renunciation in our lives. Feed relaxation in our lives will go into this food pon inlet go of this feeling of self righteousness and being greater, then equal to or less than in some way we know our monastic go duties beautiful ceremonies. When on arms rounds, six who go out into the world with a beautiful bowl, fuel and the community many times understand who they are and they offer them their food from their home. Comes to these monastic. It's an honor The practice in honour of song of community. And so this is the way in which that energy that intention to nourish into gear
that generosity and are receiving You receive what is given to you in that way. I remember when I entered into vegetarianism, so I was more presbyterian than anything I went to my great odds house in it was known to have the best pork chops and the best Chitlins on the block them. I am not a fan of Chitlins, and I don't really want to describe what they are too audience who don't know them, but you can looked him up later, but there. Meat products in this way an end when I will let her know that I was very vegetarian. It hurt I heard her and she started to cry. it allowed us to be in a conversation around what that bet for me and with that met for Her- and this was me, learning more about what
With energy and intensity with putting into her food when she was feeling me, live with her, but I was gonna visits and we let our seas about maybe once or twice a month I tin, to really offering a part of her in this way. was before the Buddha Dama was introduced to me in this life, but I was my first understanding of this test in of this first precept: The expansion being even thinking you're doing the right thing with your dietary choices, even that can have a negative impact on somebody else. So it's very complicated is very complicated. It is in it lends itself to having a conversation again And not a self righteous conversation at eight. I am doing this, therefore you
now. We need to do this, but I'm looked down on you in order to do this, I will let you really have a conversation of where you're coming from where you live. What your situation is. And so this is leading into that- that word that conversation that the sit down peace, which is, as we know challenging. It sounds like the Spirit in which you approach the precepts overall is one having an inner conversation about what, This means about how you Jos, and are going to live your life in any given moment right her elders So is living life in every single moment. Everything as we mention is energy, and therefore everything in some shape or form is a conversation in itself and how
we engaged in that conversation how we engage with ourselves when we first wake up in the morning, What is the next thing that we do? How present? we, this is where the mindfulness practice comes in. I and knowing when we, lost in thoughts were lost in some activity, and why not so present? What do we do? We begin again, It's not something to places judgment upon or even to expect things to be different. Can we really honour things As they are, just as it is. and from there that's where the eighty possible comes in the investigation. What is this was the conditioning of all of this within. Have I adopted? This have been taught this
Where's this landing in the body we have psyche baton, a practice that helps with that we have. A problem of our practice said, helps with that these practices that help to investigate our relationship with the precepts Whether we are so called Buddhists that we, engaging with these precepts, somewhat some say perform. We are following I'm in some way or not. And then there is between the spectrum is not bind areas all fluid use. Some nice words about renunciation before, as I want to pick up on that, because the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein. as a good rap on the word renunciation, which doesn't have positive input, Nations in the west from English, but he like- to rephrase it as non addiction
so you might renounce. I don't know. Lying or alcohol. will you could think that is a sort of asceticism more so deny all or you can think about it as being actually in your interests, because you're dropping and addiction is that where you were going with the aura sort of warm Immensities of e renunciation. Yeah in some sense, yes, nine clinging aspects. There's the letting go aspect theirs. on addiction, which again and is asking us to be a relationship with them The words what those words even mean to us,. You just named a couple of things about not being it did the letting go about all right, which is it
other precept that in their our relationship with so called in toxic and I'm gonna jump around but the relationship with that is in tax against that led to heed the Sesar Cloud the mind. Many was have relationships with medicine. We need certain medicines in the body in some of those medicines involve alcohol. So we cannot fully rid ourselves of alcohol. but are we then drinking alcohol on a level that allows us or access who takes us out of our bodies when, within acting in a way where is it? Our true nature, if you well, it's another nature. it's a zombie like nature. It's always harm. That comes from that from time to time.
if we have an interest in not harm, if we have the capacity to engage with this, in a non arming way. The less engage with their conversation that engage with our practice and community were not alone This is where the song peace comes in, one out alone, saga being the Polly word. Further shirt community of Mediterranean well, You said you do want to jump around, but I'm gonna give you permission to jump around. I know that the precept around in toxic later, but were already there so, let's jumped to us too. Same kind of question- and I am asking this a little bit in my you- know- rollers interviewer here, but does this precept around intoxicate mean? We shouldn't drink and what? How do we understand in toxic? Hence we define Intoxicate, Sarah could Sugar beet intoxicate
So you say more about you know how you understand this. If we following our dear teacher, Joseph with understanding of innovation, is a addiction peace dancing addition. Yes, Sugar, for sure, is entirely, Yet? We can look at the ways in which sugar has good. In a day. Did impressed upon us, culturally We have these sugar habits that many of us honey been aware of so relation owed to the visual. As my says, it is to be cultural, so called norms that yeah navigating through people need sugar, At certain times no life about folks who are working with forms of diabetes, and they made me Forms of sugar in order to support them, and so it's
It's not so calm and dry, but it's really. This is why that closing piece of that leads the cloudiness in heedlessness. I'd. So if you know that a particular product is not goofy a constitution that good for your body, it has you in a particular way and many times we not recognise we are acting up on political way, but his are community Is our friends as I saw who let us now here. I can we receive it. Hopefully we can the first time? Sometimes Is the hundredth time hopefully, is now never heard that is to have a home or death in some way. I said to put a fine point on it. If you know
we'd like to have a glass of wine once in a while, and it doesn't led to harm to ourselves or others. It's not a quota, unquote. Breaking of the precept not from what I understand for lay people, few taster allows monastic vows. This is where Precept shift talking about fillet folks. So there are certain monastic bows were Now you are not drinking any alcohol. Is a list of you can not taken These lists of what you cannot engage with we as a coach a society's there, society's new things like it added to my understanding, but in terms of how lay people interact with this fifth precept is really interesting, because you can think of a whole broad spectrum of things, as in toxic since in this way, maybe works and intoxicate. You know I know people
I don't want to name any names, but his initial, their Dan Harris her, and you know when and get Superman a stout around work can get high off of the attention or whatever. And who knows how I mean I have questions, were how good is that for me? How good is it for people around me, and so I really this fifth precept. If understood, in this european area, the way in which you are describing it. If I'm hearing you correctly, can bring you into a pretty deep investigation of how you, Interacting with lots of substances in toxic, hence author CS in your life- Turning back to you for a moment, then he mentions go a little bit deeper into that That exploration, I do you have with the intoxicate work, What is that high kinda talk about myself what the high
There are lots of highs associated with work for me, because the classic story that I've got it dying out on for a long time is that I got addicted to covering combat as a young reporter Not long after nine eleven and ended up in war zones all over the place- and it was in toxic- it in that it was very exciting and, as somebody who is quite ambitious, it was advancing. My career and getting you know, there's a sort of. Sea level fame associated with it as well and and then also as rose. Idealistic there was a sense of Yom. Do something important here and then that to a kind of depression that wasn't undiagnosed. That then led to intoxicate, suffer much more easily understood variety, including cocaine, and then that led to a panic attack on national.
a vision, older and lilies marginal less stupid now, but nonetheless, third. It intoxicating to have this podcast grow in audience it can be intoxicating when somebody says nice things about me on Twitter. It can be intoxicating when work really hard and finish a book which is working on a book right now is not good. Finished anytime soon, but all of those you can run you down and also, if arms, in my head around them or stressed out about them can make me unpleasant to the people in my orbit. Does any of that makes sense it makes, fix sense does not appreciate you being open here important for us to be able I said how we are using our platforms.
and so we have this practice alleys up actors that I've been talk of every day we mining. ourselves. Our intention, while also inquiring with the intention, intention to go to work there. To work in the way that I'm working or where I am work to checking in with that, it does need to be a big thing in that way, But it's a conversation that is reminder of our relationship. How am I using these platforms. and this that word using my using it. on behalf of non harm. Again, the precepts the guy posts. I or my using it in order to feed some piece of me that it could be the self again. We talked about a matter self, but am I using a defeat myself these likes in his quick Cindy's hearts
don't want to be seen in a particular way by someone, and these platforms know this. We had this fearful document. I just came out social dilemma, I think is the name of it was a cop But listen of these Reminders for more than a decade of the day, of nature, of not only social media but technology itself. In the ways in which these companies- no the human psyche and know how we engage with these platforms, he's gadgets because they themselves are human. They know how we all function, so they just feed that addictive peace those parts of our brain I wanna get to Haiti. You ve had some no scientists and some very smart people on this platform who talk about these elements of it
brain. So I encourage the audience single back, listen to those parts, but these very addictive dope. Me pieces of our minds that just get FED and FED and fed in so many different ways. For me- and this is where, go into the It I've taken in this life desk the two myself chosen path. and the body sought for path which have these precepts and then some more where not only in investigating these executive pieces in these conditions within myself, but doing so on behalf of others. had this very and attainable outreach plan, this vision, what we say we are going to help set. you: ve all beings, okay, so there's a good,
dear I'm down for it, I think bows without them, I'm just gonna start with this corner that are mine, I got it down this a little bit and to do it in a way again. That is not about me uplifting myself or being in a higher rank, because the Buddha talks about not comparing in practice, as above. No one is below no one is even equal to, but this emphasis. On may we be free, maybe people be liberated from these forms of addiction, found? These hinderance says that blockers from being a true relationship wholesome not harming relationship with it other, let alone ourselves. I love they mentioned social media as well as in toxic him,
as a certainly can be, I'm not a luddite, but I do think that's just it another area, that's rich for short of our exploration. What's our relation two it. How are we, as you said, using it? You ve talked quite a bit about or reference to, future The note buddhist notion of selflessness on not not self. This can be a very tricky concept for people. I myself understand it only Episodical e when you refer to selflessness within the contractor context of the precepts. What do you mean in the most sort of down to Earth way The ways in which I may insist my way of thinking it was certain situations Cysts, my values are my morals, In a situation or project them on to someone,
Cyst things may be, as always, it is a form of dominance if you are we were trying to dominate. in some way shape or form baby. One in only centre so it's okay, we need to center ourselves very often, especially when it comes to tear and self care and full to give so much to others. It's not even talking about that type of centre by being the true center of attention, not listening within the practice of listening. the listening practice is to understand the energy This is not to respond, but you understand. So how can I, in every situation, listen
in order to understand. From their appropriately respond as those two centering response. First, one that listening and I'm in I own body- my own had not even in my body and that point my own head about what but to say next, no matter what this person is saying to me. And this is not even a verbal saying- this is a physical language. We have verbal language, we have physical cues. How can we really pay testing and pick up on all And to do so with some spaciousness impatience. Get to know one another over time get to know the situation over time, not rushing China get to the next best thing. There could be a very subtle way of feeding the addition of? Let's keep on going? I keep on moving a form of entertainment.
can we really be entertained and away what were connected verses? I'm gonna use you to entertain me and you are going to make me feel good? No! Thank you. I want to share a a quote with you. You, author, who I love and follows also way buddhist practitioner. Mrs Bell, hooks with many people know so this this peace, That is a precept to me. This is the overarching piece of not harm bell. Hooks. Has this court where she said knowing how to be solitary is central to the art of loving When we can be alone, we can be, with others. without using them as a means of escape. Knowing how to be solitary essential to the art of loving When we can be alone, we can be with
without using them as a mean of escape. In the language hanging around this is so therefore because, as I said before, we are not alone feeling ass if We're leaving that we're alone is a form of confusion, is very different than low, leanness. I understand loneliness very well. We can feel as. with alone person on a particular journey when able to connect with the whole of these something nature. And how we are engaging in life when we are feeling in some sense. Discerning the difference between loneliness and alone really understanding in this again this. What I love about that quotes is that I think, there's tension all use, of that word alone,
respondents with solitary as well and at first pilot sentence. where learning, how be solitary. Would this internal investigation, learning difference between loneliness and alone, which again Does this hopefully more. the language deeper language of the felt said How we are feeling what is true here What is it that we actually need What is it that we can ask of someone The situation of these, system of constructs. What is it that we can name? So we are not going into those places when I engaging with people and using them as a means of escape of what is really
came to be known and named internally for us We ve run away many times of what is being revealed This is what I love about this movement of with a dogma for this is that there are more and more places for forced to be in unity. while engaging in a solitary way, with themselves, internally investigating not only what is going on, but what is true for them in that moment. and being guided being guided by. Teachers They taters mentors community. I love that code. I took it This may be the result of the fact that I'm writing about relationship between self love and loving other people. So I took it to that place. I've been thinking
little bit about and these none of these thoughts, regional they're, all stolen from other people, including the Buddha, but the kind of double healed x or mutually reinforcing nature of some? Love and loving other people, and when I heard that Bell hooks quote from you, is I've heard it I really like it. I remember some that a soon to be Ex girlfriend said to me in my twenties when we really have a conversation about breaking up and she said, suddenly, the effective, if you can't be with yourself, you can't be with anybody else. That's what came mine for me when I heard that court? Does that any of what I just said land for you, of course, I mean, if lands for you then allows for me. We do something out of it. There is a reminder, some investigation, and then self love, yes and I take even further aware Angela Davis, whose also up
it is now reminds us about radical self love, radical self care radical being the route hope it all and its understanding of the law the gamma bringing as to the roots of our self care of herself LE yes, so self care self love love yourself in order to be with someone else yes, because ultimately- and I mean that ultimately, it's all the same thing- that's right.
Much more. My conversation with Jos End tomorrow, Gibson read after this staying in full has never been more important. Information is coming in stature than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bread milky from ABC News, and every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes: straightforward reporting, dynamic interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust, always credible, always solid start here from Ebay seems twenty minutes. Every week day, smart speaker or your finger pot cast we're back was chosen tomorrow, Gibson one quick thing before we dive back into the conversation we would deep. We appreciate it. I would deeply appreciate it if you took a few minutes to help us out by answering a survey about your experience with this podcast, the team here, I was looking for ways to improve and we left ear from all of you, but we,
especially like ear from those of you who listened to the podcast and do not, Use our companion app, but we also want here from anybody so there's a special emphasis on that population, but anybody who listens and has the time we love to hear from you please go to ten percent outcome for its last survey. That's ten I d come forward, Slash survey. The link will be in the show notes. Thank you. Let's go back to Joe them, so we ve covered precepts one in five. In our remaining time. Let's go through two hundred and thirty four reminder the second one that has to do with that stealing not taking what is not freely offered, if I recall correctly, yeah yeah, that's right, It is simple as like. Just don't you know, shop, Left or what else can we apply to That's an it's in honour of what you said earlier about.
This has all been in before this has all been said before is not my honouring lineage, honoring ancestry. You know I was trying to come up with the math around us out of this call me. This chosen is actually being shared out right now, for example I can maybe bring it down to a zero point, zero one percent in some way. So ninety nine point nine thousand nine hundred blah blah blah is. Ancestors lineage elders, siblings, that is being shared through this vessel and then I'm interpreting it just as you interpreted that Bell hooks quote: urine reputation of it and landed for you a very beautiful way. I resonate with it, but. Tat quote: landed for me just slightly different when I received it.
is how the bullet Dama abundance The border dogma is a reminder of the abundance of this earth. Abundance that we have inherited and yet is not ours that self. And so we honour in this way. I have mentioned this quote before, but I heard Joseph once quote, a monk whose name I can't remember as this I been. when you identify with your emotions, like anger, or something like that when you claim it is yours, it's a misappropriation of public property. love that the misappropriation appropriation colonization is so my so we can get into it. There then write them in
energy that lends its of two reclamation too reclaiming again, not only what is true. but, as always, been true. What has always been true is that we, a part of ongoing lineage an end. history in this moment that is being born in alive, live Then nourishing what is to come in it is to be. may we name it as such. Is reminding us of the ways in which our own bodies and hearts misappropriated her Bodies and hearts have been deficient colonized in some way. How do we create space, for we can truly reclaim what is who here.
again. This is something that I am able to do later on in life. I've been More readily and why he's fully with this freedom that I feel inside coming out. Boys agenda not conforming. binary being, and this has been a gift can I be given back to myself that give it to me from the very beginning, this understanding me save. I understand that a trader restated in homophobia somewhere in the neighbourhood of accuracy. We're talking about the second precept. Serve, narrowly understood as don't take someone. That's not yours and that's actually important. We shouldn't steel now, because it arms other people, but it it doesn't feel good if you're paying attention to harm other people
You can go deeper with it, like don't steal, other people's ideas. Dont claim notions that her ancient in abiding as yours, your original ideas and then even deeper. Don't even claim your emotions as yours, because that can the source of an enormous amount of suffering. If you view your anger as just anger, not. Goes ends but spoke form of rain Age and dance you know like special sauce rage, then you can. You're, taking a lot of the fuel out of it. And then you said finally, that you can see how our minds have been.
Colonized that ideas biases can be injected into us by the culture. I think about my friend seven iso last you often quotes so I'm going to mangle the quote: butts Krishnamurthy, I believe who said you think you're thinking your thoughts but you're actually thinking the cultures thoughts. and now was exactly the code that came over me, and I am glad that there are seven. I said that this had so so real causing you. That's the belief that the confusion. and we double down on it triple down on it. We claim those thoughts as ours. We claim them. We do we even claim other people's identities where was it I was going when I was talking about my own Identity and and being able to come out in a way doing so that also honours the linear
And the agency of those who put themselves out their first and foremost that created since some language for to do so,. I do- a civil rights movement to the healthy BT movement. I do all these movements as giving us face hearts language. That's not only evolving humanity, but turning us to this, Article root of our love I'm not harm how compassion, let's do the third and fourth precepts forgotten. What they are. So can you remind us assure so we had a third refraining from social misconduct and then refrain from Forcemeat. Therefore, but stay three for a second. How do you incorporate refraining from sexual misconduct in your life? How do you interpret this
for the physical and cooperation, has been me being absent for some years. That engaging in sexual Activity at all, but this is my own personal into play with. Deep rooted need, if you well too ordain and become a monastic with his honest that that's probably not going to be the reality of this life. And so how am I body in these precepts in everyday life, as a lay person how am I going to ordained For myself, I know myself in this way and before abstaining in this is a practice of that bell. Hooks again and that using someone,
actually as a means of escape. Can I, We would someone in a way that I'm really with them, we are really together. We understand, likes and dislikes are: we understand what it is there I may be doing that this person may not be thou with Meda. feel good Even if you meet someone new idea and one night stand, hesitate to say this during a pandemic money, urging this in any way. but to really have the conversation that surround consent to we have the composition, and sometimes no people say I've asked as a turn off is gonna, be a buzz, kill. but there's a way in which he can really take a moment. Engage with one another
we call like really say the words is something that you want, we'd, be here together. In this go with it, go with the flow of non harm, as you are engaging with one another and finally refraining from harmful speech: you're the weights oven in the eightfold path, as rights the we do several episodes on right speeches so much here, but could A little bit. about how you understand this precept in your life? This precept to me is is a reminder to honour this interplay of speed Once truth, but doing so away way, also not dominating the situation being open
to receiving feedback being open to giving feedback. What may be so called right speech from me may be for speech for someone else. Can I the open to understand inherent. There has been a lot of free speech that has meant viewed from a lot of different angles: Over the years and decades centuries that for some people, it would be when Thou MID felt like it was right, and there was a lot of tomatoes- confusion and hatred, bigotry, systemic oppression, what those speeches which lead to action so what this again to even think of these, as in three points, series. If you will have the view, you have an intention and then you have the action.
And so that's how I practice with these. In this way, even There's an action- and I wasn't so present with the action. Can I reflect with what my intentions were before, making that action and even been going deeper than that matter, standard viewpoint with wisdom perspective with which that fuel that intention. The sun in practising a reverse. What are my views and how those feeling, my intentions and how those feeling my actions my actions be non army. my my words, be not arming being open to receiving feedback to be,
communication to learn to evolve, not about me. Over the last couple of years I've been working with these Buddhist communication coaches. Their names are Dan, clergyman and moody turn this car. you're looking for someone to do his work with their cause, their extraordinary, and I found what that what they ve taught me about how to communicate. Clearly, but also in a way that does not activate the amid de la of my interlocutor, if I'm applying the skills correctly this actually is larger point about all these precepts. That might be a good common notion of clothes on here on one level it is about, is behaving ethically in the world and the other hand, and this gets back to this sort of oneness of self love and other love
On the other hand, it is a kind of self compassion to refer from unwise speech, because it causes so much turmoil, tumult and churn. In my own mind when I'm being an idiot, which I have strong propensity towards that, being judgmental speaking in a way that overly dogmatic saying much at one time without making sure that its landing for my conversation, partner, not listen, being in my own head and planning I want to say next, as opposed to actually be a panacea, no, it's being said all these skills I've spent the lifetime honing actually exist gets too, as I would mention before a larger point about these precepts, which is an eel correctly wrong here, but what I hear as a through line. As you talk about these precept is enlightened self interest
that they can come off as rules can you can we can get legalistic about them if we want, but Actually what I'm here you recommend is to think about them with interest with investigate. And to hold them pretty lightly, to not be dogmatic about them Cause you're exploring ways to not harm other people, which, of course, in the end, is to your benefit, because We were wired as social beings is that when we harm other people were causing ourselves harm is any that make. Since I said a lot there, you did, but makes sense in that to me is also part of the investigation. Everything I he said in a key I was trying to draw out. There was that there is, we can think of precepts,
What are we can think of them ass ways to help us lead a happier life and, in that sense, its enlightened self interest? Yes, so I pause I pause only because this part that you said you can correct me if I'm wrong as well pausing because it's not about wrong and rugged right in this way, but is, as me. Policies that dialogue and I'd like again what use sharing with me and how its landing for you, how you expressing it it lands for me It's some place said I'd. Love for you to explore love to see out and feel that evolves free, because we are taking care of others, yes, but we have to take care of ourselves. First.
This is the selfless nature of century Entering yourself searching, self on behalf of that's attention right. There. when I said you and correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't mean whether I was wrong. About. Well, I didn't mean only that whether I was wrong about you know. Factually about the past Epps, but I met more, whether I was miss stating your understanding of the precepts and I was hearing it. Maybe I'm just going in this direction, because I'm so naturally self interested, but I was hearing this theme of Yeah, The end user this not only because it's the right thing to do, but you should investigate these Buddhist ethical precept, because
it will lead to a calmer mind for you and those are both related. Yes, completely agree the calmer mines, being the to mine, heart body, the one of it. The calmness of the heart when we speak, some Firstly in it in a bid, resignation, it hurts in art am also fascinated with folks who don't have that present it than by in the body when they hurt someone like to know what that's about, and I have both myself up to be incorporated. to have that conversation again? Putting myself. Better to have those conversations on behalf of force are not able to engage in those conversations with some that is out there causing harm with system, more something that is causing harm. But,
I'm working on myself in a way that puts a protective field. If you won't is matter detective feel the Brahma? We are as a form of protection this minor body, as I engage in very harmful situations. in doing that on behalf of all of us and cool Putting the people who are causing are they to be redeemed. There is up is for us all I also know when this is. This is not for this person who is not determined to engage with them. and that's how good it's been a pleasure, engage with you and I really appreciate you taken Time to do it in closing, if people want to get more exposure to you, is there a website.
eight. I know you ve done your doing a lot of work with. I am ass. The people might be interested in. Can you you may not be comfortable doing this, but can you plug yourself a little bit, sir I'll plug the vessel of the offering So this is a mess and we just started a a third he day challenge as an honour of Joseph Ghost Injury issue of Spain of insight book, which I very humbly, provided the audio for the audio book for that frontier teacher I'm also on the teachers. So for New York inside meditation centre in New York City and offer there. And for the month of February, through me for six weeks do the by sea toes Ten retreat centre, I'm engaging with the red,
teachers on sealer, these precepts enemy- They live so we'll have a six week workshop on how we are engaging with these practices, NASA Aaron treats Victoria carry and size, device ito smarter, retreat centre, like I said A huge pleasure to get to know you a little bit and I look forward to continuing the relationship in the years to come same here then thank you for having me thank you to your team, while a great people now it's just me we're talking about that's out, their effect Thank you again for shared it. Thank you thanks once again to chosen. Thank you as well. everybody who worked so hard to make the show reality? Samuel Johns is our senior producer D. Cashmeres, are producer. Jewels Dodson is our a p r
designers met bulletin from Ultraviolet Audio Maria were tell: is our production coordinator, yet A ton of really helpful input from our Tpa colleagues, such as been Reuben make Toby Gent Point was Levin. I should also mention re Housman, days. Inn on occasion was very helpful notes as well. Thank you ray also big. Thank you to my ABC News, comrades, Ryan, Kesler and Jeff. Kohan will see you all on Friday for a special bonus episode with two of our favorite meditation, yours is a really good one and unused. bonus monsieur on Friday, for that
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Transcript generated on 2021-01-23.