Spring Washam was selling timeshares and struggling with depression when she decided to embark on a journey to work on her mind. After looking into psychology texts, self-help books and various forms of meditation, she eventually attended a 10-day meditation retreat that she says changed her life forever. Washam is now a well-known meditation and dharma teacher who started the East Bay Meditation Center, bringing mindfulness meditation practices to the diverse communities in the Oakland, California, area. She also has a somewhat controversial project involving trips into the Amazon jungle and the drug Ayahuasca, a hallucinogenic plant-based tea mixture.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
My guest in this episode is a very good sport, such a good sport that are really reaffirms. My conviction that meditation is good for you her name is Spring wash em and if you read my book, but if you read my book available, if I bookstore the work. But if you read my book, you met her in the chapter where gonna ten day silent, meditation retreat. She was one of the meditation teachers presiding over what I call days and death March in the chapter, I make fun of spring in a pretty unsubtle way. Here's what I say I quote spring here's to be at some indeterminate point in her authorities is the embodiment of everything that most bothers me about the meditation world really work in that speaking softly thing. Every s is sibilant. Every word is over enunciated. She the shawls she's problem. they really militant about recycling now it might have in my defence and in sprays, events really she does go on to become the hero of the chapter she's, the one who gives me key advice, low point in my practice that allows me to have something of a breakthrough.
Nonetheless, I was pretty piquant in my description of Herschel and I was worried about that. So before the book came out, I actually tracks bring down, we don't really know each other. I had met her that one time trip and I tracked down and I sent her the chapter and I offered her a chance to you know. Let me I would change your name. It was offended or whatever and- and she got back, and said no, no, that she thought the chapters, hilarious, don't change a thing at that moment. I realized afresh how cool spring is and my suspicion is that meditations, probably part of why she so cool, but will find out for sure we talk to her. And we also about I- didn't to her about enemies, the royal we there. I also want to talk to her, but a fascinating new projects she's embarked upon. It involves the drug Ayahuasca that also it's kind of controversial and she'd been doing a lot of journeys into the central american jungle. But first
Romania. This is a ten percent. Have your pod cast down? Thank you for being here. thing. Thank introduction there. My pleasure that I found not so you agree to do this now, of course, so There was a question I always ask, which is how, when where? Why did you start meditated? I mean you know when I about my journey with meditation. I really think about this retreat. I went online us about twenty, and I had got into meditations suffering I mean I was. I started studying psychology in my lay teams. I went through a ladder, depress periods and I realize right away something's wrong with my mind, like this very clear
It was no, it wasn't a mystery. I kept thinking. I need to work on my mind so cited studying on my own reading books. I got involved in self Realisation Fellowship with Burma has a yoga. Nanda always live on our share recently grew up in a church. Oh yeah, and I was really I loved in an eye word ass. They. Now the material- and I would go to this temple locally here and we would do three hour meditation but it was bad, but I had no instruction. They didn't give you any instruction. That was the problem. There is as they open to God's love. That was all you got. So you could and in that for three hours. That's your instruction in my mind, would go crazy after We two hours, it would eventually calm down and then I would think ok, maybe I am meditating now oh, but eventually I needed more instruction and it's getting more depressed him as in this tortured. relationship. I was so
time share at the time which was called- Well, I've lay our term measuring you selling timeshare. Strangely, I was good at it. There is no doubt as is look at me in the eye and working and via whose there was something people, enemies palm springs Times. There's any. I hated it. I was miserable. I was getting where depressed and I heard about it was before spear Rock actually had land I heard about this remit to jump over legs, so Spirit Rock is the meditation centre where you and I met right thousand ten, and so you heard about spear rock before they actually Yet they had bought the land and they were doing things on the land and they were in the process. The finishing the beautiful hall that you were in for your retreat suffer suffering rose and they were Hunting facilities, that's how they did their retreats, they would go to different places and ran and there are waiting for the hall to be done, so they could then open the year round, retreat part
the centre and time. I heard that they give you instructions and there's teachers there. And I was like that's it- I need help and having a meltdown and honestly I was the night for the retreat. My boyfriend and I had this huge screaming break up. I packed up stuff in my car and for the next ten hours I to the desert sobbing drinking it mountain deal and chain smoking. I almost crashed he times as you can imagine, sterical woman driving, but luckily was an through the desert, and I got to the Retreat Centre and I remember animals collapse- that at the registration table, this is really to us so exhausted, and I was it was a ten day retreat and I knew think about it. I didn't even know is Buddhists all I knew as they gave you instructions and somebody had recommended it an eye. I got the money together went down there and it was life changing,
and I didn't even know that Jack Cornfield was the leader of that retreat. Jack Kornfield Miss Meditation yeah right around? Who was there? He was if he was on his the founder of Spirit Rock, but this was again in the desert, not at their current a dramatically in the north of San Francisco and so what was like changing. But what will change so much Are you well? It was like when I got there, I was so exhausted and the retreat was a ten day retreat. They used to do these penalties for beginners, so there was with one hundred and fifty Newbys we were all mass and there is ease teachings on being present in that. Was something that I hadn't learned at self Realisation fellowship they never talked about living in the present moment is a beautiful tradition and I love it, but it was more about sort of focus on love and God, and I didn't
I couldn't figure out, but what about my mind? Yes, I love my god. I love this idea of love, of course, whatever that means to you, God, whatever consciousness but I didn't know how to work directly with my mind, and so when I got there and they gave these instructions, I follow your breath I'll make. I followed my breath doing what king meditation in the desert for hours. My find finally begin to calm down, and I- these moments there. I could really. I really saying I'm writing about this. Now than that Richie was kind of an awakening experience for days my mind became quiet, peaceful. I was an hour's walking sitting and the teachings. I I heard it was like some people, some deep remembering like I know this and none and was very motion, I remember him walking in the desert and just oceans of tears falling with each step and at the end that retreat I walked up to this,
all areas, cock a little mountain and no behind that retreat centre in the desert, and I kind of like ordained myself and as like. I will follow these teachings until the very end as really powerful, and after that I really changed. My life was like direct turn shaped while no more time shares your now I was done in. I was young. I basically with slightly. This is what I want to do and I just started going on retreat after retreat and working places just to get money to go back on treat- and I was thinking of our deigning as a nun like a whole. Bunch of things are set in motion, but I just at that points out myself as a yogi like I'm in this world, but I'm gonna just pact as this is such a powerful path and therewith helping me your air was on fire. She saw me just about Roger. You said you had a lot of depression
That was strictly neuro, chemical or weather events in your life there, your childhood, that they had created this. I think it is my coming from their their circumstances of my life at that time. I was sort of estranged from my family had had that's really really painful child heard, and there was this I had endowed with trauma all kinds of things and, as I got into my late, teens became debilitating where I went for a long period when I was in my late teams, I was living with family friend like Ali and is living in LOS Angeles, and I couldn't get out of bed for months and now it don't cry, and so then it's then that led me to psychology sounds like something is wrong with my mind and I
reading a lotta self help bergs Wayne dire anything. I can get my hands on and then actually another turning point was decided to go to this church caught. I got bay with Reverend Michael back with, and it was very small, then the whole movement now, I've interviewed him yeah and he was so charismatic. I would go on wednesdays on Sundays and we would meditate and that also again he was planting the seeds like ok, it's my mind, but again there was something missing read I needed more direct instructions like how to actually do What do I need to apply, and now is the moment to moment awareness Michaelmas. That for me, was a huge ingredient, thus missing from a lot of other traditions, a training. A training actual an actual in training, and then let's do it near. That meant a big thing to me to learn how to do that and to be guided and another was as lineage of awaken beings who apply Bab. That's me was also very important. Who else has done this?
and does it really work and then looking at the traditions that was like wow, this is really a, but what made you believe reduce used to serve to trigger words air for me at tat, epoch beings. What made you believe that there are so what they say. There these awaiting what what made you will leave the data in the black Sea actually existed, and that awakening was possible whatever that even meet I knew reading farmhouses biography that his mind was different than my mind. Burma Hauser again, would lose the founder of the cell realisation fellowships About- was like the first experience I had with what you would call awakened, or some kind of awake mine and I didn't realize you could have been full crime, yeah you're right ill and it is really cheesy. The word awakened and enlightened man. I mean you know it's everywhere now than commercial. It is, I didn't really know, but what I knew was that after that ten days something had happened to me that I was
something fell away. I was able to be with myself in a different way. I was able to tap into something similar to what you kind of road about in Europe like something happened, and that in me produced a lot of faith, what I would say to him for me was not mystical or magical was more just at my third, the chattering moreover, in my skulls, quieted down, I was able to just be aware of whatever TAT right now and that was a company with a pretty blast of serotonin and- and I think you get a kick in the more you can and were also became clear for me, is that there is a methodology to just increase the likelihood that you'll be away. In any given moment- and it's just this creation of my illness in meditation, that's what for me created if you are called faith or trust, her confidence or whatever that I wanted to go for.
But there was nothing I still don't you nobody's offered me indisputable truth is that aid Buddha existed or be there he was awakened in and that you never going to a bad mood or die, I remain sceptical. I I agree and in moments I can't really skeptical to like what is this a big, Hoechst or I'll? Just you know, sitting here meditating in, but the thing about it is that I looked at how I felt inside and living in the present moment. Without an id I say someone is awakened. Ok, let me just clarify that I mean someone who doesn't lose track of that awaken state. Someone who's not identified with a psychopath in their head. That to me is a being that I trust someone who's out a sort of living outside of that not caught in that and granted. We are Cotton that I think this is the training is still more and more moments of freedom, but I'm from that waste
Where were you dive landline psychopath yeah yeah, and we can say that insane part of our mind. There is a total craziness in our minds. That's no doubt about it, but someone who is living awake in and living from that state of moment to moment awareness so rather there's a guy named Buddha out there who did that or other teachers, but the more travel out when I was younger and I would go to different places the mice. I too believe that this was the path I was led. Me too bad, because the more awake I was the happier I was the more free I felt, the more loving I felt, the more innate compassion was there. The more out truism naturally arose and for me, that's important to be going more in that action here and suffering you, it hardship. What once you once you wake up to this thunder
true ism that your happier when you're you know aware, what's happening as opposed to lost and delusion and rumination projection, it's hard to turn back yet in which see it charged him back my view, although people off the wagons meditated ultimate, we can talk about that so anyway, you say you have this vote first experience, it sounds like it was huge throws off into it, become meditation teacher and you and I may be leaving things out which you can fill in when it. Whenever I shut up but that's what I'm trying to get to next to the fact. You started very interesting centre caught the EAST Bay Meditations entered rather right, yeah and yes right in the middle of it, I would say not a yuppie neighbourhood. I waited free with downtown Oakland is that you'll be, although its changing, and I remembered readings and fast and there's a lot of people in any way that alone their conversation about what's happening in urban places. Yes, so you know ten years of
actors squeeze in there and then If that was the desire to be of service, to teach, people too go to where they are and right in the middle of it in endless are working with the community. I think that's a really important thing to do, but we knew that you go when you walk and I think it has to do with absolute an amazing thing to do. But when you walk into a community again say our future guess her melted. our people receptive to better or of a house. I go down while at our center we open the doors and who comes comes we didn't do any heavy advertising. We weren't out their flyers, you gotta com. This is a new thing. We didn't do any of that people, just showing up it was all word of mouth people would come and they bring their five friends the next week and it was a used ie. No, you gotta be here you just gotta practice. As you suggest
just work with it and a lot of what we did was we are giving teachings that were really were focused on that community. Something giving lofty teachings on that, de nature of reality in all that I was hugging, but the hard had a live in this moment when you're heartbroken or when you are terrified or when you are so depressed that you can't even get up or when you noticed. I was thinking about what is really happening or when your witness violence or when they had to sit with. You have trauma what happened. So it was a teachings apply to that community I was referencing quotes that they knew people they knew. We. We have an image right now, beautiful picture of Dr King he's been on our altar since day, one for people that resonates
right: that's that is their wakened heart. That is a hearth at. Is that something that they one if they want to be like that? So maybe it all I to be like that on some level. I hope you now to have that kind of courage. So I would imagine, do do you're that this is a population. It doesn't come in your LULU Lemon yoga pants, and these are not you know, or food shopping and pr listening, traditional Mediterranean, which I shall want to talk about. The second pillar He can give you some stories of of who you are serving here in any in and what kind of results you ve seen a mean. We owe case that we have. I guess you could discuss, Our committee is a mix of all that. So there are people who you know are due shop, a whole foods, but they don't women, consider themselves like LULU Lemon wearing Anna, their Martha hipsters solve thought, try I guess whatever you call it re there now
church in Vienna, by doing nothing, is offered shop there now I've its irreverent something, and I know what you're talking about YAP those. Evidently I get it I mean you know. I think this stories are so varied. If people who come there, I've worked with people who were homeless and started coming. Aaron later shared with me. I you know I came here out of hearing about this place as living in my car. somehow. I would just come here spring every Thursday you'd be here and I started came with my mind in doing that matter, pact airs and taking responsibility and turning and doing and their whole life and chains within a few years that somebody that were now thinking hey, that could be a future teacher wow. I swear quickly. Jumping into fine of usage. You talked about met a practice, Emmi TT aid at the loving kindness meditation. You were the first person ever to teach me how to do that on return, doesn't emanate on time.
even though I founded unbelievably syrupy an annoying initially and still do on some level good for you now. Let me just get back in this hall all foods discussion, because this One of my frustrations. Than I do that, and I'd like to hear your views. What do you think about the state of diversity in meditation world? My view is that it's not nearly where it needs to be an do. Agree with me and if so, what can be done? I do agree with you. I mean hello Dan. I was practising at insight, meditation society, imaginative. eighteen years ago I was the only person young person, everyone was sixty five then, and I, was the only person and I will go on written Ali person color and I will go through so much suffering and I would leave my colorful.
unity in Oakland, and then I would go there and I would just add so much faith. It didn't matter, but I was complain about this to Joseph Goldstein, all the time founded incitement and out- and I would this is so painful What is wrong with the dogma, and I would go on and on and it was- it was out of that- that the desire to create an urban community it was that suffering. I felt so alone. Wasn't anything against the people that were there, they were just everybody was their working on themselves and meditating, but the lack of diversity was so painful. Was a lot is suffering from me new, Craig, even wrong about this? My view in the last decade, or so I am ass- is emerging society and spear rock have have labored. I didn't quite have done a lot of work,
try to boost diversity. I don't know we are. All here are eager to hear your views on whether enough has been done. But if you look at the board of directors at, I M S, reasonable, it's a pretty diverse crew and there are people of color retreats, and I know I know Joseph quite well that its on his mind and a huge our adherence, I'm we're talking about just now meditation generally in the broader culture and the cover of time magazine when they did their mindful revolution cover, and it was this beautiful blonde floating off into the cosmos with the meditative bliss. That's part of my problem with the government. The other problem is this burden. clearly. This doesn't look like the rest of us and and definitely doesn't look diverse. She certainly serve. You know, she could be my neighbour Annapolis out of Manhattan and go to all foods with me. I consider dove some ways. Like part of the problem, you know who, so I don't know what what you think in terms of so
level. You got the dharmu centres, I'm s spear rockin, what they're doing or not doing and then but the lovely just have the sort of broader cultural view of the practice. So I'll stop talking and let you say whatever you want to say, but either for both. While I agree with you that incite meditation society- and here I have done alive- I mean they both been really essentially spare act has been, trying for years to have conversations to dialogue. But you know one of the and they ve done a lot. I actually applaud them for what they they have attempted to do with their trying to do. They just had a huge three day: diversity, training that was mandatory, firm senior staff board and all teacher snowed under. You am very important work and it's just such a painful topic, though damn you know the whole thing when we talk about diversity,
in whose and in whose out and inclusion and exclusion it brings up power, it brings a privilege, is painful and that's the thing that I didn't understand early on a day like we're in a diversity training. Why are all these older middle age? Why people curled up in the fetal position? I knows so they couldn't deal with it. It was so painful cyphering come to understand that this resistance- or this fear is a complex issue of how to make our communities
more diverse and I M really interested in and in so that was a big motivation to go in and into community is and created from within, and it also has a lot to day. People need to see themselves a mirror right rules or what about it should be, given that exactly what we do, what we do to change the broader cultural view of meditation, whether its buddhist store secular Hindu? What how do we make that not seem like such ay, upper middle class pursued. Won't the mindful magazine cover didn't how there was a lot of back, lousy, Egypt, time and time again, and yet the time magazine cover didn't help that might try cousin again it's propagating who this is for a twenty two year old, supermodel yeah. It doesn't help I had a dozen shoah- a snapshot of love that real practitioners I'm, but I think you know it is all not about teachers.
It's a lot about their awareness, their training, how they are. We create inclusion and exclusion. Allow lot five language, how we frame things, how you know, I'm Teaching teams- you know in the western VA partner model, there's this really beautiful group of teachers who collectively teach that's pretty unique to the West S, not how it's done an aged others kind of Vigo Room that each hour he's alone force. you know and that we we have this new model and I think what we're doing is where creating new models all the time. I feel really hopeful about those based on what I've seen in Oakland about a diverse community coming together, Castello. My events are so incredible and there the most diverse- and we still at our centre waste attract a lot of you know: whole foods marrying yoga, LULU Lemon, where INA we get that crowd too, but there's so delighted to be at eight p m.
Oh. This is so great. You know which has places in mine is there's gonna, be like? Oh, my god. How do you know those can overturn doing it? But that's touching you know, and I myself am by racial, my mother's, why my father? African American, so I myself understand I'm certain bridge for these two cultures out of down home. at african american family on the EAST coast and then there's this California side on the West Coast, though, and some ways I feel like this is always been my my topic. You really put here to deal with as pay here to deal with, is in this time in this place and try to bring people together there. So many other things I want to show. Why were you show cool about me? Making fun of you in the book I mean you were so cool about it. I thought you re getting. No, you If I am, I think, will be passed, you know in Europe
so so cool about it? If you think that, just because you're just call a baseline orbit you have had meditation. Your life loves. You not take yourself so seriously. Taught me about that. Ok, I thought that's half there. Laughed for so long. When I read it, I was this is perfect. This pass to go out every word. Ok, that was my thoughts because I was you on my first retreat, those every single thought that you had. I had about all those features. It was brutal, my moments that there are no go, whether she wearing who are these people alike, one granola anymore. I y know I have every I just saw myself and- and I think there is something funny
about the meditation community in the hall via there's something hysterically funny about it that we are sitting in and I love you talk about binging on rice, cave and like exactly there's. Nothing else here to eat no reason to gradually over. There is something you have to have a few wherewith that ten percent of its It wasn't humour in general was humor. Your expense is that I didn't like I ever to meal. Is the archetype, yeah even anyway, he s in eyes, as I said in your defence EU swooped in at my moment, of most dire need and gave me credibly clear advice had really lead to the single most memorable, time I've ever had in the in my brief meditation career. So as I was taking on new egregiously, I don't think at least
but you were you really handled very well then. So let me ask again: do you think on some level, if, if you had stayed change, smoking, drinking diet, mountain do, and killing time shares and never encountered meditation, and somebody had made fun of you would have. Would you have handled it, differently or were you always catch cool, but that everything I think I probably would a ticket? My personally probably, but it was I don't know. I just thought it was so funny and I loved that we could have that periods in that you could make a shit like that they were it didn't sis a like that. All this girl, the whole retreat hasn't has people aren't switch riotously. They project on the teacher and an eye. I just knew it really was an about meal is something it represented. It was some kind of I were struggling with this. ourselves like had a live, a spiritual life at its on cheesy, it's real right who are they? Are they real early night right? Isn't that really?
The question is this: all fake should play in our own and sell for me. I was like also forgivable. I thought my own mind. Do that a billion ties are you kidding line thing to do is project on teachers on long retreats, because your view, What are your my boy out here? My may look, your ear to all that somebody saying something or doing something, and I thought I saw myself and I think the real sort of poetic part of it was that that in the end. I come to realise that the jerk or that the food figure is me not. You have also always Ozma that thank you for that. You have this readily interesting new project that you're doing and also by your own described.
Quite controversial, has do it. I was gone and teaching it in Peru, so I was wrong. I said central market attacks with South America thought you'd spent some time in Costa Rica, but I guess I don't know yet so it's penniless other miracle. What have Milly was about this, but how did you an interesting? I was what what do you think it does for you? Ok, so I this is it. This is the topic of I will say, plant medicines is is controversial, but the top about psychedelic in Buddhism, and then in all these magician, it's not a new one. You know, there's all kinds of teachers who have had of Unita from Wrong Dodd around us go far from Harvard rewrite. While he was a video Sri Lanka, having as after either had students in the enlarged EU I was for days at a time, so not very responsible, but he amidst the whole thing, was perfect email that needed to happen. So I won.
Say that I'm not propagating psychedelic EU sets not really what I'm doing. I feel that the plants, these Spirit, that I feel that our teachers So when we are fatal, drivers are yet. This is gonna find a lance spirits. Well, I guess you could say in some way their teachers. I know this is a fire. This is ok, so maybe we want to go there yet. Let me just backup to why I got interested and I ll ask, because I think we can set the groundwork and then it'll seem a little who oppose everywhere. I why This is really out there. Will you lagoon within our remit and cooperate Agnew? Largely I never get it I'll get logic of areas I met. Symbols is the same thing. I had been meditating for years. I had probably done at least two and a half years of silent retreat.
I've spent months and months that I am as forest refuge, the other centre that, in the words for long term, I had done every type of their p that you couldn't from holographic breath work to rebirth thing to traditional therapy, you name it. I did it vision quest my prayers, everything's, all retrieval sol, richer around hell. I hadn't, I've been with dolphins and ask them for help. I would have if I hadn't found them even after two and a half years of silent met, not twenty five years of of meditation between have yours, of silent, read very intense, really years of real. You were still a lot of pain are still suffering and it was. It was like the beginning of your time are practices the grocer levels you mean,
first, the you meet a psychotic one that so obvious there screaming lounge like wait. I can see you, I can hear you ok and you he'll that level, and then you can take a breath and allow a camp doing better. But what happens over time is those deeper one Dan, the demons that are really dug in these, have bet you all ways of thinking, belief systems. that are really rooted and suffering side to emerge And I had never, I thought I had dealt with a lot of the trauma I had from my childhood. I thought I had dealt with it, but there was residue. That was still the hair and- had went on this through long retreat, and I was doing the loving kindness practice where I was doing actually in very concentrated way case. I was going very in these exalted states right up
bless and love, and then I would come hurling down and suggests a hell. Rome my mind had two places: they went Heaven how and it was a hey. I got kind of blown out that use this word when you aren't you that your mind is not stabilized in a meditative ways too hard to be mindful it's to stream. So I left the wretched a couple weeks early and went into a long period of just kind of a decent until the their welsh and sorrow and sadness in an emotions, and I felt physically ill and I can't figure out what was going on, and I heard about from a dear friend, who has been a long term, practitioner and psychologists. She said why don't you come and join us for this weekend were working with this plant called Iowa, the medicine and she had asked me about like a year or two before I was not interested and
it is illegal or I just I just, but that's not the answer. I was just thank this. How could that? How me, and I dont want to be with what I hippies in Santa Cruz, and I was like I'm goin- I'm retreat, I'm going to sit with it. That was some, but I thought at the time I'm going to air down, and I'm gonna be with us. This thing and I felt very John, I not a meditative. I can do it as me that can get very still and but somehow have come from their retreat and then not having. I was unable to meet myself scared me. It was like, I met a challenge I couldn't deal with. It was I whoa something open, and this was over me and I that scared me destabilize my faith. I can't be with this. What's going on, I have always been able to be with everything you know, no matter how bad it is inside a site. I need help from some other source
or a higher power, and I dont know I was just open and I so much grief as lines do anything. It is that kind of level of this I have no refuge, and so I went, and it was really life changing that first night. Now I don't I've never done. I was good What I know like it make you puking, you feel like you're dying in Santa Clara. Am I wrong? this kind of half right, I think I think you can have experience where you puke and feel like you're dying at a period in the ceremony. When you take, I Alaska, it's as if you have just entered into a hospital with a healer, and this is hard for people's understand because in their reality, where entering I always go. We entered the realm of chauvinism and charming limit chauvinism. Is dead and then our normal state of reality is a different level of consciousness where we ve entered
another reality. That's close to this. I met not quite it there were not in our normal state of mind. So what I always get is how the indigenous believe it to be I'll say is that it's a doctor and its living doctor and made when their sick they give it to the villagers when they themselves. to understand something they drink it when they need to understand that divination or some kind of they want to know where they can haunt or where they can go. They take it when they want to understand the route of someone else's illness, they take it and look and they can see so for them for the indigenous they give it to people who are sad. They give it to people who have like a freight. They call it which we was at his PTSD. Some kind of effect by that person has a freight okay, let's give them the medicine and then I'll sing to them for five or six hours and
Germany and then a person's like well. I feel so much better and I know what I'm gonna do and I saw a vision of how we should proceed with my husband. This is greater, I and that's how it's been used in the Amazon in Peru, Brazil, South America and care so, and what will you do this first time right an you fell. Argue is great. Like a partner and friend you're jumping around now a year without really not in a party mode, eight there is impossible to take I Alaska in a party. Why would you ill? I can't it's not nothing like that you were there for healing. In truth, this is not that kind of, if you try to take it like a party drug use, have a night of Hell hours of peace
in your brains out, because that kind of disrespect and delusion is white she's, like our aid or the she well, it's they say it's a feminine, so grandmother. So one of the nicknames evidence is a feminine spirit now it is all in indigenous it coming an indigenous perspective, yet thousands upon thousands of people see and feel the same thing. Then it's a grandmother spirit, not gentle. At times we're talking, Kuan, Yin and Kali mixed colleague being the destructive in our destroyer of all delusion rate lot of chomping going on, so people can get sick, but the purged
they call it la percha, as I saw a nickname, dry, Alaska, larger every move, toxins out of people's bodies and also the energy of the negativity they believe gets purged out. So as your reliving traumatic memories and you'll go right, there is like you're you're getting it out of you. What do you do for you, well that first night, when I I did it it was held in a beautiful ceremony. It was seven other people, we were in a beautiful space in the bottom of this house of in the middle of a redwood forest, and there was I struggle someone leading the ceremony and my friend, who was the psychologist, was their providing support and We are one in ten a meditative way. We drank the medicine for the next, I would say thirteen hours, that's how long it doesn't traditionally last out long, but it was basically
a review of my entire life and things than I had done wrong and things that was leading to the suffering that I was feeling that I couldn't feed. They didn't know where I had. I was in that state, but it was as if it was like here is. All very here is what has led up to others difficulty, and it was so clear and so profound It was definitely dynamic to me and never has been anything but that I felt like it was like. Oh attendee retreat contents in those thirteen hours. The understanding that I got your speech you towards and what its acceleration it's an accelerator, I would for sure say an accelerator. It cannot liberate you, because only you can do that reliance explicit term. There can liberate you mooning mean by it, can't give you enlightenment. I think there may be some myths about. Oh, if I go down,
to the jungle. It's gonna enlighten me now: it's not it's too intelligent. To do that. You have to choose that you have to do that. What it can do is they can help you remove the blocks that you're not seeing and they can show you many things and it can help move these energies of trauma and stress, like there's a lot of really beautiful work happening with soldiers right now, I'm drinking I Alaska and people who have been victims of rape and abuse, and they that energy is stuck in them. They can't move past it. it's like it just keeps coming up and I can't sit with it so well, either those types of incidences leave a mark on you. Rather, you wanna call that karmic residue or whatever it is Eve, something there, and this particular plant removes that residue you're you're now leading retreats in virtue. Better combination of
traditional buddhist meditation and I was young I, how does it go down among your fellow teachers? Are people like other technical go for it or people like me, your courage in drugs, now this This package is probably gonna get me and shovel day I had a ringer Zagreb about it. No, it's it's! It's not something that the organisations that I work for are are saying. We love that you're doing. This is actually a plain of consideration because it is its controversial, because people not understand what I am asking is okay, so they leap into the drug category because they contain CM tee, so it
controversial. Because of that, and because us of teachers Lino they were all teaching the Dama, as you know, awareness and mindfulness as a path to freedom, and so I'm nothing anything by that as well. I believe I am so committed to this path of own Buddhism, but what I've seen is this so helpful for people also tee to work with a period when they are called to also get help from I'll ask and that people who there's so much documentation about the health benefits of it? I mean so many hearings, the living in the jungle. For a year I saw people won't go away and Jennifer Year I lived in the jungle for one year cross my heart, nobly In that time. You saw some incredible yeah. I had been seeing it for years, because I started going to Peru right after that first night, I wanted to go down. I wanted to understand where it was coming from, who is practising it am Anna. Was there that I felt
and to working with a who are the indigenous community around the ukulele River. They are generation hundreds of years of what plant pharmacist and when I say, plant pharmacists as they dont only work with. I only work were with fifteen of fifteen other plan. They know in the jungle and they use them like an herbalist. That's what they would consider somewhere herbalists you have. A problem will help you. This is a medicine, that's how he referred to. Because there is no, once you take it, you would never referred to it anything, but that again you just a when come out of your mouth. They are like work. This is the sacred medicine thank you and most people, even if they have a hellish night on. But I you know it's, it's not right for everybody,
and I understand that there is fear, because we do have a fear of being out of control. We don't wanna have a dark night of the soul, even if we need one we don't want. One right now would be the last thing we need, but I have so much faith that we only get. What is truly gonna, be supportive for us. Have you amateurs Rita, redundant alive Many have you had some yeah, of course, I've had hellish May marathon meditation retreats dark night. Thought o thing and I work with people were like this- is so getting go at you know, I mean I've. Seen it all on a meditation retreat error, fear I mean I could tell you stories of being at the forest refuge in freaking out in three a dot m wandering around the kitchen yeah it's well your mind, so it's not like you're gonna. Take this and have a totally it's you. U Apple,
and there is a lot of scientific research being done, but it's very hard to do scientific research in the way that people want to do it because they want to prescribe this that everyone. I have the exact same experience is impossible. What you can experience and what I can beings means arguing radically different based on what you need. in that moment to evolve you it's going to be very different, so I could sit with eighteen people having I Alaska and there's eighteen orderly, different experiences. So it's hard to. a kind of one all here you go, you know it doesn't and NASA Pharmaceutical company would like to do and this impassable. Thank you very much. Here again. The joy always are another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you like it, I'm gonna get you up for a favor. Please subscribe to it, review it and read it,
I want to also thank the people who produce despite Podcast Josh, go handler Efron. Sarah AMOS and ahead of ABC New Digital Dan Silver And heavy up a twitter Danby Harris next time there's not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way the corona virus pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people were soon
every day. This is my Monday last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our time in these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from ABC News you gonna hear from damage. Was she went back to my office inside crying because he is not here and making sure that our community smiled faintly Lorraine? This is the essential inside the from the emergency room, the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves norms, which is always a risk of rain, is home to re. Kids are my husband Arabians, listened to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, refitted, podcasting,.