This is the third episode of our Getting Unstuck Series and we’re kicking off the new year with a giant in the meditation world. Tara Brach holds a PhD in clinical psychology and has been practicing and teaching meditation around the world for more than four decades. She is the founder of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington and the author of numerous books. She’s here today to talk about her newest, which is called Trusting the Gold: Uncovering Your Natural Goodness, and features illustrations by Vicky Alvarez.
Tara’s argument is that we too often get stuck in what she calls a “trance of unworthiness,” spiraling into negativity about who we are and how we are in the world. That’s the bad news. But the good news is that we all have an inherent goodness – what is sometimes called “Buddha nature,” and what she in this book calls “the gold.”
In this episode, Tara explains that the boundaries around what we are willing to accept in ourselves mirror the boundaries around our own capacity for happiness, and she offers actionable tools for expanding our ability to accept. She also talks very bravely about how she’s done this work on herself.
Join us today for Getting Unstuck – our free 14-day meditation challenge, over on the Ten Percent Happier app. Click here to get started.
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/tara-brach-408
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is the ten percent. Have your podcast Andean Dan Harris everybody Happy New year generally around the new year. The kind of programming you get
from the media is pretty
raw happy clapping new year, new, you and so on, and I say this as a guy who spent nearly three decades in the belly of the beast as an anchor man. Today, though, we were to take a pretty deeply
different tack, weren't attempt to what may be the most bawler psychological, slash, contemplative move available to stare directly at our own ugliness. All of us have things we do not like about ourselves: rage, sadness, selfishness, slow,
hatred, the odd shudder, inducing glimpse of our own capacity for prejudice
whatever we all have our own bespoke mix
Generally, we handle the difficult aspects of our personalities in one of three:
habitual ways. We feed them
flee them or we numb out today we're going to try to do that classic buddhist thing. The fourth option of trying to look
at our demons, with some clarity and even some warmth, we're taking off
new year with a giant in meditation world. Tar Brok holds a phd in clinical psychology and has been practicing and teaching meditation around the world for more than four decades she's. The founder of the insight meditation community of Washington and the author of numerous books, she's here today to talk about her newest, which is called trusting. The gold and features illustrations by Vicki Alvarez Taras argument is that we too often get stuck in what she calls a trance of unworthiness.
spiralling into negativity front of my calls, this the toilet vortex about who we are and how we are in the world at that's the bad news. But the Good NEWS says: tar
is that we all have an inherent goodness, what is sometimes
called Buddha Nature and what she in this book calls the gold. Hence the title of her new book: trusting the gold
freely admit something to you now, and I also say this to tar any
review a not to
ago. Version of me would have had a pretty our time swallowing this second part of an argument
I certainly still got some of the incurable sceptic in me. Maybe five that might mean family conditioning may be part of that is just being a journalist, either way if Euro sceptic, if you can, as I did, try to
suspend any resistance. You might be feeling for just a few minutes. You may well find that the Torres, advices actually extremely compelling and very practical in this interview sheets
at the boundaries around. What we are willing to accept in ourselves mirror the boundaries around our own capacity for happiness, and she offers actionable tools for expanding our ability to accept. She also us pretty bravely, in my opinion, about the work she has done on herself. In this regard, I should say that we put this interview with tar for two reasons. One is that, as I said, she's a giant in this field, the sort of person
where has earned a permanent spot in our guest rotation. She's always welcome here. The second reason, though, is that we are, as you may know, in the midst of our new year's series here- are the pie cast, which this year centres around the theme of getting unstuck our hunches. That Taras message fits pretty squarely into this theme. Of course, we don't all have the meditate
experience of a tar brok. So if you are feeling stuck in your own meditation practice or if you ve tried repeatedly to start a practice but have not been successful, we have just the thing for you.
Free new year's meditation challenge, which is also called getting unstuck and launches today, you can find it over on the ten percent happier app
if you haven't done one of our meditation challenges before here's, what you should know are challenges are among the most popular things. We do at ten percent
beer and our new year's challenge is the most popular challenge. Here's how this free challenge is gonna work. Every day for two weeks you watch a short video and then you will take part in a guided meditation to help you establish or kickstart or deepen your meditation practice.
you'll, also track your progress, so that you can actually do the meditation rather than just thinking about doing it. You could do
this solo or you can invite your friends and family to join you in the challenge. You can track one another's practice. You can engage in some mindful trash talking about that. Your homework
will be the ten percent happier app download the app right now, wherever you get your apps to join the getting unstuck challenge for freight? Ok, we'll get started with tar brok right after this.
Dar Brok welcome to the show,
my pleasure Dan. What do you mean by trusting the gold.
There. Different languages for could be trusting here,
nature, but a nature. Trusting the goodness sacredness beauty
that lives through all of life it has that domain. I don't feel this way now, but I can interpret it back to the me of fifteen years ago was on
And in pretty much every way, and also very, very sceptical that guy what I heard, what you just said and said: what does that even mean? What do you say to
people who are new to contemplative endeavours or just irretrievably
much as I am and find that language short of hard to penetrate
yeah. So the typically
we are identified. We take the who
are to be our person
our bodies, how we learn how much we
succeed or fail and things and so on and trust.
the gall means to trust a deeper
of our being or deeper expression of our being and most of us she
no matter how much were stuck in a kind of
on ourselves, cells are caught in a small place at times,
feel a sense of love and at times feel a sense of wonder
at times- feel a sense of tenderness when other people are hurting and those qualities.
when we feel them, they feel more like home
Then, when were caught in a smaller place, it doesn't mean we don't get caught like a huge amount of time.
but there's some, I don't card, if verges deep, felt sense that this is more
HU I am or who I can be. That's the gold and learning to trust that that
who we are and that's our potential actually brings it forward more. So we made
walking around with a story of I'm not living up to my friend
and Instagram or beyond ashamed for the things I've done in my life, for my failed at my career door, whatever were walking around with some story or stories about how deficient we are
same well actually notice the times when you know often come taken by surprise? When you just see, I don't know a cat bathing in sunlight or a nice sunset, or you do something kind for no reason other than that. It just feels good in a new impulse arose on contrived in you in the moment. Those.
little glimmers, which you might overlook, that's actually real.
Who you are. You should trust that
that's right- and I would say there are two pathways
to trust in the golden you just name. One of them, which is we have the snake
fifty by us, and we fixed aid on what's wrong and its on purpose. To look for
and remember the goodness, the
Her pathway is to go ahead,
and deepen our attention to.
the feeling that something's wrong to wear were ashamed, where we're judgmental, where were unforgiving,
and this takes training, it takes real practice but stay with those feelings in a real semantic way.
and bring as much gentle
ass, an presents as we can to them and what happens is in the process of being with a sense of deficiency
There is a little more space.
An awareness that really
I feel like all so, those
mentions of my being? Are here? They start emerge,
in the process of being present with what feels wrong, and I often theirs
story. I tell you are familiar with that. I'm sure, but just to remind you are all
the listeners right now and at that,
statue of the Buddha that lasted for centuries was revered
and then, in the nineteen fifty days when one monk color
the delight in a crack. Has there been along drought, wet shine back with the gleam of gold and they ended up taking off what
to be coverings only and its theme
largest, solid gold statue in South EAST Asia, and what interest
about the story, and I find it really help and remembrance is that them
I believe in and historians confirm this that the staff,
virtue is covered over to protect from invading army is that it might be desecrated, stolen or something more
in the same way there,
over, are an eight purity to make it through a difficult world.
and whether it's because our
givers or not caring
tuned? They were
abusive. They were neglectful or whether it be
we're all in a society
in some way, is plagued by addiction, consumerism, messages that are really demeaning,
for many who are non dominant groups,
but ever the reasoning,
we end up having to protect ourselves and the protection takes the form of what we often
we'll call our egos strategies of being defensive, are being aggressive or trying to prove ourselves. Sir hitching arson,
soon inflated special sense or sell far even hidden
ourselves to a bad sense of self, so that we can try to be the person we want to be, but we have our strategies and what happens in
As for the suffering, a stand is that we take our
cells to be those coverings. The ego- and we forget the gold.
and I'd, say a whole lot of e R. One whole way to think of a path of waking up a spiritual path. Healing path is there.
We recognize your coverings. We learn to hold them with kindness,
and we remember reconnect with a much more whole sense of our being this there's real freedom, and that this is the identification you're talking about
for that. I may notice that I have certain purse
reality traits defence
for I am back in ten toward the obnoxious, I'm speaking about somebody else here. Of course,
well, whatever personality traits. I notice about myself or one notices about oneself, and we feel, as you said before, that that's the whole story. I think you described before, and I think it may be worth.
As the Tec Bro say it might be worth double clicking on that a little bit the meditative process through which we can kind of disentangle this, where you can said and in meditation and make,
these stories make the are ancient armor make. Are self loathing the object of our meditation
under that kind of mindful gaze, it can fall apart in some way, it won't seem so solid, it might describe
as with any degree of accuracy, exactly right and I'll. Give you an example from my
life. I, when a lot about the about of unworthiness witches identifying with the coverings a sense of deficiency, because I just become a master, paying attention to others felt so strong over the years and when
my husband when we got married and he moved down here. We first
together, I was really athletic and healthy and within couple years- and it was not because he was
add from within a couple years. I did a kind of a downward spiral and became
unable to do all the fun physical outdoor stuff we used to do and, along with that big
much more irritable, much less
patient more reactive. Just like
of a nice person to be around- and I remember spiralling into a real chance of unworthiness around it. So not only am I a bad patient
and I'm not being a spiritual person. I'm not handling this sickness well, but
also not an appealing partner, and so it was very deeply ads
today, because it is the whole sense of this
still want to be with me and
I remember bringing the practices we're talking about which are really mindfulness and self compassion to that and feeling
had sense of unworthiness, which really went down to unlovable. Just felt unlovable
very unappealing miles
version projected outward and I
how to feel it in my body, then I had to feel that twist
my heart, I'm gonna know it well and that kind of empty hollow eighty
He saw a feeling in my belly,
I just sat with that. I'm actually putting my hands if you're her watching on my hard and my belly and just sat with it. It really helps to kind of put your hand on your hard at it's kind of a gesture.
Kindness, azure keeping company with an experience
I feel it in my body because our
issues are in art issues they are in our body.
breathe and listen to what it needed at what it needed for me was just to trust. I was level bar and the way that process
Send it was in some way sending a message,
to myself to just trust
was lovable that also kind of asking the universe to love me.
calling on the universe, just to bathe,
in some way and I thought
whenever I really call out from our sincere place for loving
The very sincerity creates a kind of poorer service that lets it, and so I could feel it. I could feel
love is here
then was. I was able to talk to Jonathan
actually without in any way,
blaming him for trying to fix me or do this, or that just say, I'm just really vulnerable and gave him a chance to talk about how vulnerable he had felt
knowing how to help me in, but I first had to go through that
in process of bringing
these meditative practices to
that sense of shame and unworthiness, so
actually help me shift from identify
with the coverings a kind of unworthy unlovable
killing south those are the
coverings, their golden Buddha
remembering that loving, which is absent
to our being and then just
when there be room for what didn't feel good and that,
fifteen identity really to me is the essence of all waking up that we
from a sense of a small I whose generally falling short
to a sense of homeland.
sir, being there, Sir belonging that has more
a formless and timeless quality? Could you expand on that, because I hear that I find it very compelling
Having struggled with a small I for a long time. The idea that we can, I
and if I less with constricted ego and more will, I believe you scalded formless and timeless I'm asking truly not from a sceptical standpoint brought from like how do I get some of that standpoint,
Well, have you had times where you sit with something and feel it and be with it?
and, as that's happening
presents increases that the quality of that
which is aware that which is caring, increases, meaning the
part of my mind that is kind of thee,
knowing faculty of consciousness. Just not the not something that I think is me but like
the pure awareness part of my mind. This may sound little esoteric to folks, but I understand what you are saying and yes, I have.
And that the quality of tenderness also that there's more just
a kindly way of being west that that kindness is more. There are more accessible small digression for the first slug of my contemplative career for the first huge part of it. I got a little bit better at seeing I thought more clearly the contents of my consciousness, whatever was coming up in my mind and often difficult stuff, anger, selfishness, impatience, etc, etc, but.
It wasn't until I started taking a deep dive into loving kindness practices that I realise that there was a slight a verse of flick in what I hear too, for with calling my my full awareness of what was happening in my mind, and it wasn't it
I sort of cranked the volume on the warmth really by doing several long retreats on this stuff and making it my daily practice for many years that what I had heard meditation teachers talking about four years, which was that mindfulness as properly understood co, arises with a warps
that the will is often called loving awareness, which made no sense to me that we only then that I understood what I think you are talking about now and it
take time, and I'm glad you name that at the beginning, the
times as best we can do, is view at the painful feelings
and on some level let them be there like. Just allow
Now that the there that begins to open the space
and understand that true, accept
This is another way
sang love like every totally allow
I do often and- and this is really helpful
when I have very
appearances arising like
shape. Our judgment or anger are fear. If I say too that experience this belongs
and what I mean by that is, if my being is an ocean with all sorts of ways, this is a way of in the ocean. It's an honor
acknowledgement of this is the reality of the moment
but saying that it's kind of like maiden,
with the reality actually
opens up some space for things, and so that
beginning. Mindfulness is that kind of
allowing not adding in
the only saying this is bad. This is wrong. I want this to go away, I'm gonna fix it just letting be. This belongs.
and when we pause in that way- and just say this belongs there
space. That opens up that,
in time becomes tender
but, as you said often, we need to be purposeful about
because in some ways there's been a real
hardening Ard Armoury are dissociation from the body in the heart
One of our, I think our first podcast interview- you will remember this in there's, no need for you to remember it, but in that conversation we
talk a little bit about this notion of inherent goodness, and I remember sayings
They, like you know. I've always had this kind of semi cod,
this assumption that I'm actually inherently pretty bad just irretrievably self.
sure somewhere in the monster zone. And you surprise me again. Please correct me if I'm remembering this incorrectly, but if I recall you surprise me
that actually use sympathise with that that you had maybe a little bit of that too
my remembering that correctly
That was where I started off. That was the suffering of my twenty six
me going on realized?
that I needed to dedicate to loving most.
often to healing to the tooth trusting the good
That was here because I think that's the core pain mode.
of us? How, then I think that
We are identified as a separate self.
that means that there's somebody in here and somebody else out there,
primal mood of the separate self is fear
and then the whole circling of having to prove having to defend the mistrust.
Rises from that and we don't like the separate self were identified with even for inflated,
underneath that is there something wrong here? So I think that
the transfer bind that most of us are waking up out of
identifying as a separate self. That's not a good separates of this idea
of non separation even after years of doing meditation retreats in doing this podcast twice a week. This idea of non separation, or some might call it oneness, still trip to me
because on some level, like I'm sitting here and you're sitting on my computer screen my wife's another room,
I am separate on some level. So can you
Just remind me what we're talking about when we talk about not being a separate self
what you just described are, I think the architecture of our brain is designed to have us perceive separation. You can see
in the way the Olympic system works is that there is a perception of separation, even small multi cell creatures, no
what's in here is me and out, there's them and and pickle or contract, when
is a threat, so it seems to be part of the
nature of incarnates thing? Is that perception of separation and
we also seem to have the self Reflexive CUP
ass. It is
to be aware of that and to
who sense connected us. That's also a part of what we ve got and that
there's some description of our evolution of consciousness. It's that we,
you're from an identity as a separate shelf to waking up those parts.
of our brain that actually create an integrated brain and something even more that sees
not who we are and that's kind of a concept
understanding, but it's really in
first to me that when I talk about basic,
and there are many people that say or what makes love more basic than hate. Why is good
no more basic than badness and one of the
stories I tell, and in my new book trusting the gold. I was doing a talk on basic goodness and I quoted Einstein who really is asked. This question is a most important question we can ask ourselves is if we feel like this universe,
in this world is inherently friendly, a friendly place, and he,
said that if we answer that question by saying no there,
The result. The impact is that work
more walls, more weapons, that's how will use our resources and technology if, instead,
We have the assumption, there's some inherent warmth friend
this love whatever you want to call it that
instead will use our resources and technology to deepen our
you're standing of this world were part of soil. I gave their time
and because I think that an interesting inquiry just a sense or word: how do we land on that? I had my mom. She was living here at the time and so
come in and out of my classes with me and when will we be driving home? We talk about. The topic
and she was a flash major. She was Barnard. She really love talking about things and she would
knowledge me if she had the slightest open
she loved it. So she took it on. She said what
good as more and more real than badness universe talked about its structure
the climate and racism and choose will advocate in against capital punishment, and then she said
I'll settle from neutral at best and we continue,
the talk and, by the way
He would challenge me even when she agreed with the sentiments just for fun, and I share
with her that
there's no way we can know cognitive away
is a certain way of viewing the world, and this is really pragmatic.
How does it serve and
Sensing as prime,
Pretty are a priority as the real net
of what we are, as goodness,
love as awareness actually leads me to
guaranteeing more love in my day to being less D.
so to be more open, and so it
This useful, in fact, if I have a mantra
Recent years it has
Ben Trust, the Gall dinner trust, and that so that, when I'm kind of-
hooked on that them.
Heavy bias and seeing the coverings
It feels very embodied now so, even though it seems like a choice, it feels like a precious
guide for me anyway.
It could relate to that an interesting way. She she died several years later, her.
Her way was to see the best
people and bring it out of them. Issue is on board. She just didn't, buy the argument being a cognitive way stated so firmly.
but she was right about when you say, trust the gold
is there an element of? Yes? I trust in that I want to get on the right side of the self fulfilling prophecy here of a truck.
the golden me and other people, but you know a dollar
She is still real in the universe. Hatred is still real out there and you probably should lock your front door depending on where you live. Euro should lock your car, depending on where you park, etc, etc. I had
supervisor right when I was going from my psychology licence who was
extraordinary psychologist and his team
what was he would be with people and he was really a mirror of goodness. He help them trust that there was
a basic goodness in them and because there were such
a feeling of safety in his gaze. He could exe
or with them the patterns of the covering their defences in aggressions and who is.
he's so lucid soap scheme,
the doing that
but he really was able to help people just rest in some fundamental trust and
we, don't ignore the coverings. In fact there some people, we don't go near there, some people we want in jail. There's some people. We will vote for whatever it is. We
ignore them that it serves so much to remember that, no matter who or what were burnt
to my mind,
There is an essential life force awareness value, that's living through them. Imagine your book. I want to talk about that there, some sections of the book that I think would be fascinating to discuss. One of them has to do with the second
arrow that's a term we use here on the show bore, but it might be new to some people. Can you talk about that.
yeah. This comes from some of the buddhist tax. Were the Buddhist said. If you get stuck
than arrow at her
Swollen arrow is when fewer arises or anger arise. Are shame arises when those emotions spontaneously arise it hurt.
And the second arrow is there, we judge and make ourselves wrong for what's happening, so I might feel, let's say if I feel insecure
during this conversation than this,
second era would be and what it
Kirk. I am that so embarrassing that here
done so many conversations like this, I would add, on some negative self attribution said that
a slant of it that I find most people find valuable, but they talk about second harrowing themselves at something
then and then they'll add on. I am bad. I'm wrong. I shouldn't be like this just checking you're not feeling of security. That was hypothetical, your browsing or are you
not in secure. I there's a background monitoring of. Are we
exploring were almost sir than it feels really good, but I always a monitoring for that. So
there's some agenda, but not insecurity.
If we stray from the agenda, I hope you'll feel say
I'm sure, that's really possible. That may be part of my just temperament like got it. Let's make short
I can assure you from my perspective. It's all good, that's really great famed hold much more. My conversations with tar brok right after this pay Matthew, Happar, I'm a meditation teacher and the host of the twenty percent happier podcast
believe it or not. We're already coming up on a brand new year and maybe are struggling
crafting a noose resolution. You can actually stick to or
just trying to get over a general feeling of la everyone goes to periods of feeling stuck me
you, ve been stuff for a long time, and I can't figure out just what's. Holding back
or maybe you know exactly what it is, and you ready for that. One sparking need to make a change. While we want to help you get unstuck
He rejoined the fourteen day getting unstuck challenge for free in the ten percent happier up every day.
short video, with a conversation between me and ten percent happier coal
hundred and Harris followed up by a guided meditation that helps. You see things from a new perspective,
the challenge starts on January third and the last day to join as January seven, you can join the getting unstuck challenge
free and the ten percent happier I download the
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He at linked in dot com, slash, acquire that's linked in dot com, slash acquire to post your job for free terms and conditions apply. Another section in the book is from white guilt to heartbreak can talk about that
yeah. That was the most challenging of the stories I shared by the where these most of trusting the gold
stories from my own life, a kind of where I've been stuck,
and what I ve been learning and in
because so much of my steepest
incurs, I would say, Danner around waking
to how this
social caste system in our society has condition this body and mind
biases and a sense of pride,
and entitlement that I just
haven't seen and its becoming
a clear to me that
there's, no real freedom. If I dont see those layers of conditioning like that's as much a part of the spiritual path, as anything else is waking up to
wait: supremacy in our lives through this body and mind and really the suffering created by white people over the centuries and being accountable so, but that is a backward.
and I did a year a long white awareness training, and then I did a three year group with a mixed group of people, both mixed
Yes, but also in terms of gender
Kennedy and sexual
adaptation is Israel MAX of twelve of us, and the intention of the group was let's find out. What's
I've been you really beautiful, angry. What's it like being you in your group identity and who you are and all those levels
in the first six months.
I was really in bad shape in the sense of really self conscious.
Really unnatural, very tight unable to really be at all engaged in an. I basically didn't feel like I belonged,
here I was the white person not feeling belonging
and so I started to investigate that after one particular of our gas
it was really painful and what
It came down to, as I brought mindfulness
compassion to what was going on inside me was that the
experience of belonging to a dominant culture group that it
has this much pain and the sharings? Oh, my gosh
just a sense daily, the
enough pain. My friends lived what s, the kind of violation
It was just just thinking about it very heartbreaking, but
what happened was I was feeling responsible is feeling guilty. I was feeling like. I could never do enough.
To make amends to repair.
And so I went to this kind of guilt spiral gnats. What was lacking me up and, as I paid
tension to that girl and I really went inside it. I just felt like how it separated me from the group and
Just felt this longing to be unhappy.
To be feeling our connection, and with that, I felt like ok, let's open
to the real needs of the pain that others
are experiencing an eye.
I just really opened a lot too
the huge and so the suffering of this generation.
internet. Are that's active right now in our culture, very much active, in fact, if anything white supremacy,
inflamed right now answer I an opening,
that it just brought on a lot of grief, but it was very pure grieving and
that really make a difference to go from guilt to heart
really made a difference, because I found then
with others, and I was just
tender and open. I asked
found that it gave me a bigger perspective that the
horror of what white people have done as a group.
Doesn't make me a bad person. A chest
Let me now that this is truly suffering and I need to be part of the response. So
actually helping to engage
do you for my commitment to bring
repairing but realising that the guilt, the owning
as an individual badness actually got in the way.
An assured in the book down, because it seems pervasive
among white people that either we feel guilty are were in denial or were angry that this is
but in some way the it's called fragility where fragile and
It hasn't killed my fragility. I am still in the last couple of
I've been in in mixed crew,
should have some sensitive issues and feeling this fear
making a miss step and the self consciousness, but.
It doesn't spiral in and grab me
identity in the same way, because.
I know now the pathway to going to wear their suffering is increasing at an I grieve a lot. I think white people in order to be part of the healing have to the uncomfortable and have to grieve at he's so helpful and normalizing. Here you is as such, an accomplished meditation teacher and somebody who has so much training in the security world as well to be sold by your own personal struggles about this subject and all the other subjects we discussed coming up to. This was really helpful.
Because it really just gives us all permission to be messed up to and to know that there is a way out to adjust to restate, I think you're, a central thesis on this subject is that guilt, especially among why people ass white people just boroughs us for
into ourselves. Whereas a heartbreak or just an openness to the amount of damage has been done by our
forebears, and that is still with us now with so many negative consequences that, while its uncomfortable and painful letting all of that in we'll position you to engage constructively and be part of the solution, as opposed to resign
adding in anger and denial and unconsciously perpetuating our role in the problem, yeah there's another piece to it. That is just as important
the grieving is not just for those
who have been the victims of
Violence is also for us white people, because I can speak personally
Living in that conditioning of other that, even though
It's been very unconscious. It still surprises me. Our keeps
appearing and more subtle, but very real versions
living in that separates me.
Makes it so I can't feel
to so many people and that's harm that hurts.
it's so delicious and so freeing to fill up
of it all and at fragments the world, so we lose
by the conditioning to its another level of suffering, but we lose out. The argument goes: we have two armor up in order
to ignore the inequality
all around us and that's only bad for people who are on the wrong side of the inequality equation, but those are bad for us because that armor stops us from being.
You know fully right here, that's exactly right. The armor armors our hearts so that we can.
really be at home in ourselves, and we really can't be intimate with our world yeah.
Somewhat related subject. He also bring up in the book is something you call newspaper meditation.
what is that now have the updated a little too hard Caston on the web, but yeah so work
from was I
was publishing radical acceptance.
Since two thousand and three side ridden radical.
happened so going around giving talks on radical action,
dense and so many people said to me the tar
Are we gonna radically accept that our earth is suffering or we can radically accept the class inequalities? That kind of question, and we were on the verge of attacking Iraq and
My basic response was now or accepting. What's coming up,
it's in the moment so,
We can respond intelligently to our world. That was my response.
but meanwhile, are struggling with it, because I would
Be reading the newspaper every day and read about how white
Those in power were planning to attack Iraq and get this senseless foreboding of the ripple it was going to occur and how many
humans and the land
cape we're gonna suffer and how is the spread of bread and so on,
and I was so angry down. I mean I just every time I ve been in the newspaper. I was tied up in
and really angry, mostly focusing on
those who are in power there.
those decisions and so,
I realise that was not serving, and so I started
the same putting down the newspaper pausing,
and feeling the anger and opening to adjust the way we ve talked about with some of the other feeling.
bring my attention to wear the anger was this kind of explosive.
swelling experience in my chest and and breathe that, and if I let it be as big as it was, I find underneath it. There is fear so than I
be with the fear in that same way, just really opening to it inviting
to be there. This belongs, feel it breathe with that and if I really open to it, underneath that there was grieving for loss for all the loss
and if I kept opening to the grieving I'd, find really right at the center, just caring that I care and if I can get down to the carrying
then whatever words or actions
come out of that, I knew would be much more fun,
the healing of the world and if I was acting out of the anger
and as it turns out soon after I started this newspaper meditation, the whole number of us were there.
straining on the capital and bunch of us got arrested or a lotta clergy that got arrested as part of it
I remember the police going now white collar crime, which it was really was cute and that there was an
hostility there, but
really struck me about our protest was reward.
clenching our fish and it wasn't like hateful an angry. It was kind of prayer for that
we're all keep their eyes on. Protecting life
on cherishing life and a real different fields,
and there is a very powerful quote from the Buddhist teachings- that hatred, never
Caesar's by hatred,
by love alone. Is here that this is the ancient
an eternal way, and it feels so true
There too, we hear the news in flames us and if we then don't process
the anger and the fear that under it, we end up
acting in ways that
the very suffering were were upset about. You mentioned prayer and in the book you talk about. Your relationship to prayer alive westerners, are drawn to
meditation, secular, meditation, even buddhist meditation, because maybe they had a bad experience and religion of their upbringing and Buddhism is not a religion
Abraham expense in that there is a creator, God it said her etc. So there are some precincts eyes. I would imagine of this audience and people who are not huge food.
of prayer or the word prayer. What do you mean by prayer yeah innate a good,
crash and because there are different interpretations. I grew up
a terrier, aroma, unitary, say joke that prayer was addressed to
We met may concern, which I always liked. First, on its way,
deepen Buddhism in almost every place it it cropped up. Prayer
but not maybe in the sense of I
small self terror and praying to the Almighty out there? It's not that
What were reaching out towards.
is really truth and the truth of
a larger reality that we have temporarily forgotten that prayers, the longing to remember and connect with an experience that an Ado
way down the way I think of it is that awareness is waking us up and it causes
home through the courts.
of longing, and
Those who are most may be cynical about the idea of prayer,
I have some longing or aspiration some
ash, that's motivating them and energizing the path. So what are we call?
something that we want or long for we wouldn't commit to track
sing every day or commit to doing a podcast like ten percent of their wasn't some longing in there to wake up to realise something to come home to whatever
we want to put on it.
It's really valuable to let that be conscious to it.
the invitation in the body, software tradition is described ass
duration and that's just a part of the project,
to realize what most matters to you. What do you really care about and what would your life they, like?
if you remember that more moments, a few in the midst of a day, paused and said: ok, right,
Now. What really matters
we're getting in touch with the sense of prayer,
and when we are in a stock place, underneath
the pain is some unmet need. Something were really longing for. I love the way
Donoghue, the poet put it it prayers of bread,
between longing and belonging? It actually care.
would you say that the buddhist meditation practice of loving kindness, we close our eyes to conquer the image of somebody
animal or human and repeat phrases like May. You be happy, may be safe, etc. Would that be prayer in your view,
It has two different functions,
one is it's in a way, a concentrating collecting settling practice, because a quiet, the random busy Knesset usually fear driven of her mind, and so it actually quite
at the mind and an gathers us and yet
Second one is it's a prayer to the extent that we feel care when we offer it were
arousing the heart and assumes the high
separations dissolve and a lot of people,
I will say: well, you know, if you're
buddhist and you're saying. May you be happy? Isn't that a sense of self and another and their spots, bus to be a self
in Buddhism, there are tons of practices, they're called skilful means
they create an atmosphere for
sitting in ultimate reality.
loving awareness itself and Matter
one of them were in any more man. I look at you and I really feel that sense of
Dan. I really want you to be happy and I feel it
those moments it actually last separation. So they work to jump on the phrase, their ultimate reality for folks who were new to Buddhism Buddhist talk about relative reality, which or conventional reality, which is the world in which
we mostly exist. I dont Harris had this calendar of women sharp today the interview you tar Brok, and so I'm relating to you as a separate person, but the ultimate reality is just as this
Arab sitting in is solid on a relative level. Ultimately, it's mostly empty space, populated by spinning subatomic particles on an ultimate level. There is no homunculus of Dan Harris between my ears. It's just this body and mind a coming together of conditions, just like an atmosphere arising like a storm, and so in the buddhist tradition. We talk about relative practices like matter or love,
I miss and then ultimate practices that help use penetrate through the illusion of the self. Now is a really clear explanation and I often think of it
just the way the coverings of of the golden Buddha like we need the straw.
Oh that are served.
Have a brain has to keep us alive and functioning in that are either has to be productive and do things and those
The different waves that are happening in summer, more useful than others, but there's
so can be a remembrance of the ocean or the gold which is really a presence
always here, that's that has a more timeless
and formless quality and that's what's described as the ultimate and
possibility on the path is that they don't have to be so separate we can be.
In some way resting in that ultimate like I can look at you and sense that,
The same sentence, that's
supposedly in this body mine looking out and that same awareness list.
If I pay attention to that.
It's a bit of the edges dissolve of a separate national justice? There's a field in kind of feel a field. That's
that everything's arising from men coming back into enough. We got really still and that this is
of a relational practice of of touching
And to the ultimate, but if I
keep sensing bad. What
Looking out that there's a tenderness there that there's is in a there
Is the same as here that field
I'm smart, predominant and there's not so much of an identification with all
store, colon personal.
it says that resident for you. Yes, I mean,
I feel, like my understanding, is that aid
junior varsity level at best but yeah, I do get the sense that both of us are animated by some sort of life force. That is, for all the scientific developments of the last couple of centuries. Still a mystery consciousness is still a mystery, and whatever this is that's turned the lights on inside of me is the same for you, and so we can look
that exactly that's part of which deepens my sense in basic goodness is because when I get quiet
and I come down and I'm not cod, and I
yes, and so on there
a presence there arises- and that's always been here, but becomes more apparent that
as a fundamental capacity respond with care to the world it just that's what I'm,
not in a contracted state. So there's love here.
As I mentioned earlier, that feels more,
true, more basic than anything else
there's love here,
can assume its in you and I can
Too much everywhere cause wrong
made of the same start how its leg
but ever aroused this universe, whatever I think of it, as awareness came into form all these multiple forms,
same living through us
I assume that if I trusted
the Knesset in me that that
actually extends to try
the goodness and life much more, my conversations with tar brok right after this
use the word there that, as you will know, since we discuss this a little bit before we started rolling, I've been working out a book that I've been sort of temporarily describing as being about love. You used the word love and if I heard you correctly, which may not have you used a pretty sure capacious broad definition of the word, often it's a confusing word in the west as we use it to apply to
MAGIC glove and how we feel about chocolate and how we feel about our children and there's been all of this science around different
every of the human capacity to care which, from civility to compassion to empathy, both cognitive and emotional empathy to self compassion and
this, and even sometimes the Buddhist really slice this up into pretty fine categories and I've come to think of it all. As I said before, all of the anything that falls under even
ethics, anything that falls under the human capacity to care- and this is by the way, an omelet directional force right, it's directed at at our selves as well as other people. All of this, I think, can fall under the broad and often controversial, aegis of love is a buy in interpreting. You incorrectly
based on the foregoing utterance and no actually I'm right there with you, and I think it's important now say why I do think there are flavors of love that sometimes it
out of compassion, were you're, paying attention to suffering and there's that tenderness and wish for somebody who feel better, and sometimes
It comes out as joy. Could you
fill your celebrating something and sometimes its gratitude, so there are flavors, but I
agreed that its of one nature
and my understanding would be that the way
that's the way are mind our wisdom, mine.
Can perceive connect.
Didn't answer non separation, the felt sense of the heart is love when that comes in
I love the race winner, Sarka, DR one of my favorite, of the
Teachers, mystical teachers from India no longer alive, he says, wisdom tells me I'm nothing loved
Call me, I'm everything and between
to my life flows.
and so the mine can see that there is no separate self in here, but the hearts experiences. That means
but we are belongs to everything, so any practice that
softens. The arming of the heart that's trying to hold on so much to the separateness at a fear will start opening up,
that experience of non separation that the heart past be embodied the reason that most people have a hard time- and I and so many people
report this to me feeling bad about themselves that are not really a loving person is because the
as and fears of this life appropriately. There
hoping strategy was dissociation and it takes
coming back into the body and feeling what's difficult to also feel that.
very delicious refined
sense of of tenderness in love on the subject of feeling, what's difficult, there's a quote in your new book: hunger read it to you in and maybe you can expand on it after I've stopped talking, here's the quote the boundary.
do. What I can accept is the boundary to my freedom in this comes back to return that earlier, when you said it, you think
you're being mindful, but it took years free just sent the two wings that its both my.
forcing what's happening, but also a profound kind of ten
including the wing of care and acceptance when it goes?
deep is love, because if one there's no resistance to what's here, that sense of separateness falls away in that work,
Thus, a sense of a separate self is the ways that we resisting.
ass around experience. So
any more men,
for we really there's a surrendering into watch here, an opening into what
pure acceptance there will be the realisation of all nothing separate and the heart
sense, are love, but that takes practice because we're
so habituated to defending unresisting that it's kind of a gradual softening one, my favorite,
praised by the way, is just too.
Meeting our edge and softening as well. We can assets
pace because again what trauma? If we try to heart,
suffering get retrain the Thai, so we have to really do it. Compassionately gradually- and are you referring to in our meditation practice when tat stuff comes up or just
How we might handle this in day to day living or on the couch, with our therapists or both
all of it, yeah
when there's trauma and there's been dissociation, the pathway
to gradually ray
enter and feel the pain
the herd, the wounds, the betrayals in the body, and yet we need to do that
carefully, because if we go in
too fast. All do is re experiencing the pain without any of the resources. We need to refrain
and I just it and heal
so there's something that a lot of us call Resourcing, which is we have to do a certain amount of
creating a sense of song connection a wherever we can
find it an axe.
the neural pathways related to safety and connection on now
so that there's
basin now resilience enough to touch into what's difficult. You ve done such great teaching in this brief discussion and so perhaps to make make sense to close on something very interesting. You talk about in your book and you ve hinted at in a little bit in this discussion. So far is that youth has the struggles with your persona as a teacher.
What has happened like and in what form have their struggles come when they go to very distinct,
directions and one of the directions is the fear of failure. The sense that
in a show up. Well, let people down- and I won't be prepared and work,
his fear of failure and the sense of deficiency for many decades now the thoughts
Feelings can arise, but they don't grab my identity,
I've just work with them. So much as I see them, they're not comfortable,
but I know something a deeper truth, so they don't hurt me
the other direction that I can go. That also does
hug me. That's very uncomfortable is inflation were, and there was a faint
is that this was. This was the thing I was working on. Thinkers second book came
and I just as at another level of people knowing of me and so on
in some way and sooner kind of interact with the world. I started sensing that I knew something that others didn't know or new more I was you know. I just had some importance in some specialness. I didn't work
I feel that honestly nanometers like that was more embarrassing than feeling ashamed and it was really hard to name it out loud because it is real and I was feeling it and even now I'm slightly uncomfortable naming it. But I've done a lot. So I started working
Special person which, as you know, a part of the covering of the golden Buddha in others, the defeat
and failing self and there's the special person self in I'd, come back from a workshop or something- and you know where I had been-
people on realize I was a little bit separate. I was kind of assuming a role and really feel tremendous pangs of regret. So I tried to get rid of
rational person. I really did, and I
and threw out it every every jerk. I knew
I reigned on it, which is the meditation that's weaving mine, forcing compassion- and I
Forgave then I just did ere. I really try to read everything and
I remember one night I was meditating in
filling a lotta spaciousness and openness and connected nurse and all of a sudden, some thought about something else.
Do in a week and then a wandering, while I wonder how many people signed up for the future that once really I'd better there's a lot of people, and I just like good now, you know it was a frustrating-
I don't know if I say it out loud, but it was the sense of what else can I do
and then some wisdom. I don't know if it's actually a voice
so what you want to college. I said and just like all just surrender. It's ok and.
Something dropped away. There was like ok, I can't fight a self can't get rid of a part of a self and just letting go
the struggle and space,
opened up and that very clear knowing that the current us
she'll person could come and gone was really okay. It is like it's just
Worse are better than anything else and that I could rest in something
So there was a feeling of freedom and non identification
a part of you went wow. I think I got this special person thing now. Oh my gosh and, of course that was more claiming of fame for special
person, but I could see it with a kind of amusement and again not be hooked, so this part of
the covering comes and goes as does feelings of fear of failure,
that's? Ok- and I think that's the deal that we
so fundamental, all rightness that we know who we are
beyond the coverings.
that way we can be in a while.
Is and carrying relationship with what comes up and with other people, and this is really, I think, part of the gift of the whole path, as we can see past
mask of their defences and reactivity is to whose there and it helps us to bring out the goodness and others and to not be so
cotton reactivity are to wear their having trouble. I love when you tell stories it where Europe
Can opening up by your own inner struggles, just very helpful to the rest of us I live,
I said that was my last question of the one last truly last thing I do want to ask you about. Is your argument with which I haven't share our happiness? Agree with that we,
consider taking the gold
all the way to our dinner plate. Can I get you to talk about that a little bit better?
is back up a little and share a version of loving kindness that I do regularly in the way the way it arose was. I was out hiking, as I often do, on the Potomac, and when I do, I kind of communion with the wild
if they're in the spring, the baby ducklings in the baby goslings, and I watched them severe, some really connected and involved with the different creatures enduring
Particular walk. Mislaid fall around now their wish
What's that rang out and hunters were up ver, should
Guess- and I was
done by it and then just horrified, because I just
This vision, I may have watched their pairs go around what one of them loses there may there just so innocent and being violated in this way, and I started crying eyes very upsetting and
something in me such there. My friends were friends. My friends are being hurt
and so I just kept on walking and feeling and- and I started, I saw my dog trotting along and I said, Katy we're friends. We are friends and I looked at the sycamore that was hanging over the river and we are friends and paused with each one.
And felt a sense of by very
by naming at
could feel the real NASA to stir a tender related mass, and then I stopped
it just widening at two cents: the other beings in the world and
my mind when, as it often does to the billions of animals in factory farms that are intelligent pigs in the
hours at her. Gentle creatures thought all the chickens and
I just we are friends. We are friends and the more I did it down the more there was a sense of. I could never be alone. It was
a joy in the midst of the sorrow of the suffering I couldn't
Are we alone if I could know my relatedness to all beings all creatures and if I step
a dead we humans and its nobody's far, but we have it's called speed,
Yes, we feel superior to non human animals and that they get did they become
objects that concern
fire appetites and it's the same mental
buddy, that same hierarchy that lets the earth be an object that our kind of
place for resources and its our sir and its work
systems on the planet
there's something about this. We are friends meditation that helps to cut through
separations and help us realize
our belonging to the whole web. That both is.
So sweet just a few,
never be alone and also then leaves us tat.
Thing in ways that don't objectify that
come out of carrying and remembrance
and so for me, one of them is I've than a vague and plant dazed fur,
a number of years. I've been actually vegetarian.
Firstly, since I was twenty years old with, except for a few years, and and for some people had slackened, be completely plant based, but I feel like that needs to be the
action for all of us, for the sake of the planet, for our health and too,
wake up out of this idea that other
send and others are actually objects that we can violate so that matter
station is one of the ones that really dear to my heart. We are friends as a vague in slaves. Vegetarian myself, I notice people, don't like it when you advise them giving advice, but
to eat or in any way, seemingly restrict what they can eat. Why do you? How do you manage that?
glad your naming that and I really understand, because it feels that kill her anger are denial or whatever it's really uncomfortable cause. Some way the message is coming cross you're your bad person, your do something wrong and also people have raised
the strong attachment to their food, we all most of us do so
it's something that doesn't feel so easy,
for me, when I'm talking about it rather
then saying, thou shalt. I name that I know it brings up guilt in Rio
tivity- and I can speak just for my
I'm saying that it brings me some joy to feel the,
acted with all these and
sense of alignment that bring some peace and that I know in an ideal flourish
back that everybody's got to find their own pathway on this. Before we go, can I get you to plug a little bit of your new book? Any other books? Do you think people might
and any other offerings you're putting out into the world that people want to know about will thank you for the invitation,
yeah we ve been a lot of this. Talk has been focusing some of the themes of trusting the gold which a beautiful gift, buckets Alice, illustrated and that's really sweet and if you go to
my website, the shoe gifts that come with their theirs. I think.
a lottery for a free from free, shine,
since all on how you can enter stance
one and the other book I mentioned right Now- is radical compassion because so much
of the work, for how do we deal with the most difficult emotions, not
to alleviate the entire.
City as much as to really come into a radically different
asian ship with them, so they actually become a portal to
discovering who we are delivering more in love?
So how to do that radical compassion and at a centres on the rain practice
I guess the only other thing all mention right now: Dan is their jack.
filled, and I offer a meditation too
Your training that is opening for registration in the near future,
If people are interested, they can find out about that. On my website, it's two year programme
a really powerful programme both for inner transformation and also to cultivate this capacity died other people on something that can bring
Hugh chilling to our world tar. Thank you very much for coming up.
My pleasure. I love talking with you. Thank you feeling is neutral, taxi
datura. Before we had out. Let me mention again the free fourteen day getting unstuck challenge which will teach you how to over
inertia and make the changes you may want to make your life. This is.
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The show is made by Samuel Johns, Gabrielle, Sacrament, DJ, cashmere, Justine, Davy Kim
Maria were tell and Jan plant with Audio,
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with you on Wednesday, four, a brand new episode about a very reliable topic burn out.
Transcript generated on 2022-01-03.