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Improving Your Relationships - Buddhist Style | Martine Batchelor


This great deep-Dharma episode is all about using an ancient, fascinating, and readily-accessible Buddhist concept as a way to improve your interactions with other human beings. The concept in question is called vedana, or “feeling tone.”

Our guest, Martine Batchelor, will explain. She was a Buddhist nun in Korea for ten years and is now a lecturer, spiritual counselor, and author of such books as “The Path of Compassion” and “Women in Korean Zen."

Two brief notes: First, this episode is a re-run, which we’re doing a few times this summer in order to give the staff a breather, and also to resurface some of our older gems for our newer listeners. Second, this conversation includes some brief references to sensitive topics, including sexual activity and substance abuse.

Download the Ten Percent Happier app today: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/martine-batchelor-repost

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC. This is the ten percent happier podcast, I'm Dyin Harris hello, my fellow suffering beings, how you doing get a good show for you today. It's it's a great deep, Dharuma episode. It's all about using an ancient, fascinating in and really readily accessible buddhist concept as a way to improve your interactions with other members of homo sapiens. The concept in question here is called vague, dinner or feeling tone. I want to leave it to my guest to explain what Meda is all about because she actually knows what she talking about. Her name is Martine Bachelor she's, a former Buddhist, none. She she was, and none in Korea for ten years she's now a lecturer, spiritual, counselor and author of such books as the path of compassion and women in Koreans. In this
oh by the way, is a re run which were doing a few times this summer. In order to give the staff a bit of a breather shut up to the Tpa staff, there are credible and also, of course, to resurface some of our older gems for our newer listeners. One final little note before we do that this conversation includes some brief references to a few sensitive topics, including sexual act. Pity and substance abuse, just a little heads up there before we dive in one exciting order of business. You may remember Earlier this year we ran a big listener survey. Thousands of you responded to a whole series of questions about your experiences, listening to the show Thank you for doing that by the way and we in turn listen to you turns out one of them You'd rather do without is the ads, probably because we're right in the middle of talking about the pernicious.
acts of mass media or the importance of self compassion, nor how to achieve a blissful stay of attention and focus, and then some jarring voice elbows its way in trying to convince you to watch a boxing, at your try, a new diet or by a car. Whenever we heard you and that's why we're gonna try something new. They show the ten percent happier. Podcast is now available ad free. inside our companion, meditation app, which is also called ten percent happier. You can now listen to all of our episodes saw as in the EP, when you subscribe, related wisdom, zero distractions to get started both the temperature and happier up in the Apple Appstore then tap on the podcast tab at the bottom of the screen. This is I will now on Io S. Only Android is coming soon. I promise and help you get started.
We are offering thirty percent off the price of a year, long subscription to the app until September. First so go to ten percent outcomes. Lash August for thirty percent of your subscription, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dotcom, Slash August! Ok, let's diving now with Martine bachelor arrived Martine thanks for doing this. Thank you for asking me. I think one of the things we need to focus on today is a way to work with our minds so that we can really become like individual vectors of activity in helpfulness, so we're doing our little part to make a dent in the universe. In this conversation indeed enter when the pandemic started. The cubby did not stop she'd actually fall. Things came to mind the first one who is actually to see that the practice
I'd really in a way prepared, before this prepare me from these. And they made like kind of bringing some stability, some ground clarity and that's what This is about to help us when we have difficulty at the same time. Decided It is a pandemic. I am not going to stress about anything my What will we be wise? Thrice? Take your time think the time you to do whatever is needed, because if you stressed then you go into the house, to yourself harmful to others this, the thing was to think that appreciation more data rejoicing in all the people who helped us to survive and to see what was still working. What where people still do
and also so grateful that all these people in any danger themselves for our survival? And the first thing I took out the practice was how can I change my relationship? how can we use this opportunity, really see the other and try to see the a differently and our relationship to the other differently, because we saw used to go on automatic I have that relationship with this person. I have this easterly with this person and that's the way it is unethical Could we have a renewed war, in our relationship in these strange time. So I would say the pandemic in weight. every ball and at the same time we can be an opportunity to really bring the practice to the situation in our schools
to help ourselves and, of course, to EL others. You said so much in there that really deep do let's pick up on the fourth of the pillars, their witches should have using this as an opportunity to practice improving our relationships. Does that bring us to this notion of feeling tone or Vader knows exactly exactly because I think we cannot merely did have been treated in relationship to press. The other and often to press The easiest person gave me pleasant feeling too, or is it listen, giving me a present. in turn? Odysseus person giving me neutral, feeling thought and then thinking that then it is in the other person
because we have the impression that in some other person who gives it to me and that's why I became very interested in mind for less of feeling torn because what is it mindful of feeling feeling torn vainer. The dna Engine party language accessory referred to prove to inanity upon tat through the senses? The simplest example is actually Carla, like war paper, cooler, Look around those areas, green blue, read any We see Green then give and tenacity. If we see around, didn't exist. Another tonality, if we see cream give us another terminology, and so what is it? thing that colors as far as I know, has not done anything to you
green? That's not just that. You red: that's not giving you a nice present, but why in that we see, green, red, ok or yellow, and suddenly we feel something So maybe for many when column, you have tat, let you in didn t you at least on anxiety and watches important, is to see that the temerity is conditioned by the perception, and so this is gonna like what's core the five omnipresent mentor factor. You have contact tonality perception, intention and attention. As of today, we could go mainly at the first three, which is contact, tonality and perception, that's really whereby us we come in Hell perception entered,
Ninety two really in a way influence each other. Let me see if I can take some of that very often referred to in English as feeling tone the concept. As I understand it, is that you know. If you look at the mind, were constantly knowing various objects taking in sight sounds thoughts, physical sensations, etc, etc. And every time something arises in the mind. There are three ways to experience: it is it pleasant, is it unpleasant or is it neither meaning? Is it in neutral, and this can seem incredibly technical. If you look at everything, that's coming up in your mind, because there's so much that comes, the mind nanosecond to nanosecond, but it has profound ramifications for how we live, because we act
If we're not mindful of the feeling tone of whatever were experiencing, we just acted out, so we see green wallpaper. We don't like green, we yell at the painter or whoever painted the wall, so many ramifications come out of an unseen feeling. Tone is anything that I've just Ed accurate. You see. What is interesting is that the Buddha say in one text there is a hundred and eight they then ass, so actually using any said, the first to our mental or physical. So we have to be careful to think that better now he's just above the might. Of course it's about the mine, but actually it's also some see we see in the world is very strange. That actually did a fact kind of our whole body mine complex as some damage,
to be more mental sometime to be more physical actually and at the same time it's quite he finds it runs the affair gift. All reason, of course, is going to lead us to react in various ways, so you could say you answer. You see something you hear something and then is present. on pleasant, as you pointed out, The men generally give us a feeling sensation, which becomes an emotion we should hang and become a disturbing emotion as also in what we do in that we became aware too late all actually the Meda, when things I've already gone overwhelming and then we might act out you not harmful way to ourselves to others. And so that's why you know with idea with the mindful of feeling tool used to see yeah and you
nearly two sick and how does it feel Often when going to the meaning of it all. This is unpleasant this then is unpleasant what actually it's unpleasant, because with it myself and in meeting the other person something of accident, maybe there said something. Maybe maybe I do not well well for a real soon. I think the one first thing to be careful about is what I said before that we assume than the present mass unpleasant mass, a neutral easing the objects like let's take mangles, I like me, and I think mangled by sound use. Then you somebody says to me all I dont like mango, then We tell them when you know that good work and then forcing them to try one
and then they seventy I'll, try this one and then they soon I don't like it he's not in the main goal, but it's in the person in a way liking. It so he's gonna blank, and these can be that's what you so interesting, Windsor tenacity in that is constructed he's condition. Preston owing to object, but its houses, sites like, for example, is like one ITALY, reading there and they used to it rhubarb, every spring rhubarb pie alive, rebaptize terrible, resolve youth or for its a sour I used to think about. What's the matter with them. Rubies and then they like he'd. There must be something our planet about there and you let alone to light drew up. So the problem is not the thinking of.
Pleasant unfastened according to conditions, but we then see things in the thing itself or in the person which is, I think, much more dangerous than did the thing You know the person is always like these. A person is always like that. All our society decrees. These people applies, and people are good people. These people are unpleasant people, they back four, but nobody is good and bad all the time. What other condition could the pernicious effects of being a mind less a vague now work in another way as well. If I experienced an unpleasant feeling tone because of something
you say, and then I falsely assume that everything about you is negative. You know impute some sort of essential unpleasantness to you as opposed to seeing that it's happening in my mind, based on the causes and conditions in my life. It could be like that, but couldn't it also just be something a simple, as I love my wife, I don't think she's essentially unpleasant in any way, but she might say something that rose by either way. It gives me an unpleasant feeling tone and because Seeing this unpleasant feeling tone awry, rising in me, I then snapped back at her and all of a sudden were in a fight. Exactly- and this is a very good point, because you see what is also interesting in the tent, since then the Buddha talks about what happens. We ve change like it's there
interesting to look at the changing nature of tonality and how we re acts, the changing nature of tremendous, so the wood Firstly, these underlying tendencies. We ve tonality themselves. If its blade learned, I want more if its unpleasant, I don't want it if its neutral uncomfortable, But then, as long as its present its present, but once in stops, he can become unpleasant As always in some pleasant, its unpleasant, but when its thoughts he can become president. and we ve neutral. If you understand it can become pleasant. If you don't understand it, it can become unpleasant. So, in a case where your wife, what is interesting is that at one level there is, is pleasant, feeling told most of the time from
So generally you feel uncomfortable because, oh yes, he is present, but then she said something unpleasant and he's like point to me. But you see, you might not see straight away So I just give an example why, after that, there is a strong reaction: I did something really pleasant. And then I made a mistake. I misunderstood something and then he turned to unpleasant. when we go, there was a cause of pleasant, then idea, Caesar unpleasant, and then I went upstairs In my flat and then an hour later. I was seeing something Listen to my husband. When not done anything. Nice awaits what's going on here, I don't anything, but I am saying something to him and I realize it's just going upstairs because a pleasant stopped it
is replaced by the pleasant generally with pride it so that's another that we do. We don't see it soon enough then, because we feel enclaves and then we have to sharing to others. That's only we really easily do but waves He's clean your wife. It was, the plane reaction. She say so an unpleasant, reply with something unpleasant but one then is interesting if we, because of for less of temerity. Your wife say so, and then you can stop and must observe. Oh, this is unpleasant. And then the question is How long is it going to last and to me this is Something I do a large in meditation, Andy Life I see the different feeding to locate the Temerity ass change.
and then our long is new to reality going to last, and then three level. If you don't do anything, maybe it actually passes once some time ago. I was. We might spending a car and yet difficulty kind of driving out of the parking lots aware little chance and then he says something unpleasant and of course, I first reaction would be to say something unpleasant to, but then I thought now I think, a little unpleasant in the body in the hot house Is it going to us? So I just did not say anything bad and I just we was rising. We continue an extremely little. Ninety itself last see only two red lights and I was really gone. because I have not done anything with it. I am not saying this. Is me
it is my then I have to go, You know we react emitted nonetheless, when the Buddhist says the underlying tendency to unpleasant is to push away or to attack. So in a way we feel unpleasant either we go into. This is terrible. This is terrible disease or for poor me. Pull me out. two I am going to attack you because you attacked me you're hurt me I'm going to have to bear. And in a way this is a beauty, one could say, when we protest, but in a peaceful way, peaceful can offer we you'd like. There is a lot of very difficult tenacity and then candy saying I will be. Not causing harm. I was demonstrate that we cannot stand firm for something
but I will not give back that anger. I will not give back that entry. I will act more out of a sense of fairness of just is the less what these interesting weep unpleasant feeling too. What do you do? I mean one I heard I was at a peace conference and no lots of brave people talking about peace. Everybody was falling asleep and then you on this, oh come on the little guy and he said angry, he was one of my here I am angry anyone. It was Pierre anyway, the fast fast person long ago in the nineteen sixty or the first personally, I needed something about homelessness in France, anymore, become a member of parliament to do something about it, and so yet pleasant, feeding, thought because tonight he is it's a function.
survival mechanism, it's an evaluation mechanism to feel upon counter, so people some pleasant forum that people suffered and when homeless, so he was angry at it, because it was unfair and it was for any went to do something about it. So you know, it upon the unpleasant feeling torn, but in a creative way, in an insight for we saw the point he's not, then there is no tonality, but the point is that we create You mean, engage with tenacity. All we overwhelmed the well by the. So let's talk about how we can start to practices.
In our own lives. I would imagine, will correct me if I'm wrong here, that the beginning of this process is to get really intimately familiar with these feeling tones as they arise in meditation, so we use that is our Jim, so that we can then apply. out in the real world. Yes, indeed, because I mean to be a long time to understand, to really actually see the feeling to go, I began aware of mindfulness I practices, and then when he gave a talk about international feeling too And my first experience free was we ve cherries, because I of cherry trees and the person talk about finance, T pleasant, finale, decisive, ok, I'm going to win this chair is good. I love cherries and then see what upper so I e the cherry and then, if you continue to children to lecture
the two now to change something. What we have to be aware is at its in a way to seek analogy, in daily life, because it we'll be more distinction where, if you sitting Many data and that's why I could not find tonality for so many years, because what I was finding I was like, looking forward and he was neutral the time when we seek in meditation the terminology. Be fairly in the neutral range we could set. Not much is happening, use just sit there, but then, what you can do is its in three different way. If you pay attention to the brass and your bed, into the air coming in the nostrils coming out of the nostrils. What you can see these just kind of like a bit of changing.
every little cooler little warmer and its fairly neutral the breath. But if you look at sensation, you have two wheel: milking, had sensation, you're sensation in terms of content So you can feel them the clause on the body. You can feel the hand on the legs. You can feel the bats open discussion and again that's fairly neutral. or you can go into sensations, and then you might there were sensation in the new or you might ever sensation in their shoulders. Then there you start to see more in the wind. Definition, you could say the sensation could be little relaxed, unpleasant sensation could be illegal, tight and unpleasant. Then the place you can really see the minefields, so red, then I would say yes with sound, so get
Silent plays, then again it will be fairly neutral. But if you listen to sound what I call this into the music of life? there you can become really interested in terms of you. She was sound. Engineering immediately. I like this, lay a future your letter and is very pleasant. then what is interesting with that sound. So you feel this None of the bird that it stops. I now to continue his unequal understand stop dollar tonality goes that's it we can really look into it. The thing is: if you sitting there and then you get here
like a mechanical, sound, allowed mechanical sound, then Jimmy you can feel unpleasant and then, if he continues, what happened to tenacity. Are you getting more and more upset about C doesnt become? little neutralised. All then you can play we first section kind sitting in meditation than you hear, mechanical noise. And then you realize all they repairing the pipe which passed and then actually Although the sun could be a little pleasure, he couldn't pleasant due to the changing perception, all their repairing the road grave, the water he's going to work better. so knowing what is interesting is easily not much happening. Then you'll be more in the neutral.
personally, I think the neutral can be also interested in general. What is our radiation sheep to neither. But nothing is going on around in time we think of it as boring She's boring, I'm worrying my life. Sorry. This is terrible, circulates interesting. what going on, but we could have a strong reaction to nothing going on. All you can have. From perception. Nothing is going on here. nothing. Bad is going up much more my conversation with Martine Bachelor right after this,
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I want to go back to perception, because I think that ties back to something you said at the beginning of our chat, which is very technical from meditation standpoint, but I just want to assure listeners this can be technical, but its scales up to very practical in your life. So we're talking about technical meditation techniques that then scale up two ways that really have an impact on your mind as you go through life and on your relationships, which of course then continue. I have not gone impacts on your mind, so will you talked about vague the feeling tone of things that come up while we're meditating and they you talked about perception and I think it all starts with something called contact. So I think you talk about this change before of Contact Vader perception do I have that right, you actually, but what you have to be careful.
talk about it. It seems to be linear first contact. Then tonality then perception actually not it. what happened at once. So at the same time, we have contact we experienced on and we experience perception. So the way you can be mindful of there was a contact because We don't know why we feel what we feel and then real. I want somebody said that you know Nothing. This is what a lot of these is happening with micro aggression, people dont, get it like. You know a lot of Black people, people of color in America, keep saying but Michael aggression and people say white people say, but I don't see the point is minor, but actually every time. Every day, six Monday. Sign a year. You get these, which nobody else
the white people don't get people making remark and each time you feel so, I think fast, to see all. I don't feel these, because I am I'm glad I feel these because again and again I get these things I'm not feeling these out of the blue, because It is something that is not their normal. You see something you have contact with our ever tiny That's one thing to really be aware: contact something happen. I have something. I saw something, however slowly tools and if it's big than its more obvious of course, then at the same time it gives you a timidity and again, if it's a small tonight, it's you eat minority. so obvious. If it's a bigger tenacity will become more obvious, We have an asked symmetry in the sense that it's nearly
Gus plus five pleasant, making sure the kind of scale zero to ten pleasant focus indeed take us five plus five to say: oh, yes, this is nice. and then I'm closing it takes you minus one minor and zero point five for you. I don't want it so actually, Mindful of tonight. You help us to increase the place and to be aware of zero to five, not just press far and the east of unpleasant again, he gives a greater range mind. A swan is thus minus. Five is not my understand but if you get a lot of minus one there, they can go where rates. Then they become minus five may understand. So in a way, the tenacity
we can see the range as what is interesting. We ve tonality the range of it and then perception is kind of like shifted so much. kind. You know if we see somebody else accuse them of something, and they said do it? Ok, you do not do it If we take over that's what is interesting, if we taken over by they did this unpleasant feed later knows. I did not do it, but we take by the unpleasant, and we still think then present in they did it that What do you say? We probably back you? Can we just sit here and he goes but often it's really can off it amplifies negative to knowledge. The empty fine, especially we ve perception because of that association we associated with them.
of the past and pain of the future. Go. That's also something in the tax issue that talk about tonight, it from the past to reality, The present for nine from the future. That was incredibly interesting and just so that I make sure that I understand the terms correctly. Contact in a technical, meditative sense means just simple: something has happened. Something has arisen in the mind vader or tonality is the feeling tone. Is it's either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral? And that perception is just mine's capacity to know what it is. Your flipping through the I've heard it described. Perception is, like the mind, is flipping through its past experiences, to figure out: oh yeah, that's a fire engine, that's the sound of a bird
so it is simply just knowing what something is and we can be mindful of each of these, as they happen in meditation, which then, of course has consequences for how we act in the world. Is all that correct? Don't point up to a point presently I to possibly to your training, you seem to work a lot of them. C of the mind with is buried up, but personally, I would say, contact he's not just above the mine content. It is really about the whole organism, through the body mind complex, being a contact. What we see what we see what we feel the body all of us. I think these are important to see that actually it's quite body the concern for me very bodily, though of course teaching. the mind and the thought that arise in the mind so For me, contact is actually
these organisations in the world and how it is impacting by the world, then the temerity exactly what you said: perception, I would say he's a little more complicated than that, because perception is, what you described basic many many many making machine things makes sense to me. So, let's just consciousness, but perception actually can be biased. To me, perception is biases, Oh you perceive so in a is not just conscious like how you make sense of it. but how you make sense of it is going to be impact it in a way by your chance to education things your life in that up and to do so is not just
bad contravene the whipping conscious of something but he's gonna, like the consciousness we'll be conditioned by in a previous causes and because it and small causes sobered. Yes, that kind of the description. Member states wider, I would say- and there is an interesting idea it, which is equanimity and all continuity is seen as being economists, as being serene as being com, but really one of the idea of equanimity he's actually treating people equally, and this is a great challenge- to treat people equally, because we're not going to treat equally. If people gave us a different feeling too I mean your wife if she does not say so.
the unpleasant. She gives your feeling too, but you might think neutral some person you see on tv to prove immediately unpleasant cinema, often we don't treat people equally, because of the terminology they give us all because Tonality society decided then there her foot. I need something to do that. Personally, because somebody help me, then I'm going to go on treat them differently. Fair enough. I mean if somebody attacks you and is of course, of course you have to get a minnow not to go back there, of course, but its interest,
society deciding a group of people must be treated differently because they like this because they like that that is interested in France long ago And you don't you stop at the revolution that seventeen eighty from the eleven hundred to seventeen ain t. The other groups of people were untouchable in France and to discovered this recently. So for eight years these people were discriminated against. They could not leaving the town they could not marry. They could not afford midday its intrinsic, for they were really entered. And nobody? No, why believing so long ago, eleven hundred- maybe I don't know the eagle whatever, it's. Only a group of people decided.
For whatever reason these people we going to treat them differently and asked treat a group of people differently and you'll do on the function of the damage. These people are unpleasant the whole Europe is unpleasant, no matter what they do say whether sensible in India there all night, the Olympics so you're born and you already impure when you're already given unpleasant feeling to the pure, why this is so strange by society, creek, to ninety within the population and then, of course, twitter. Facebook All these places are going to reinforce its tenacity, which I think is extremely dangerous.
We got left when they were reinforcing. Tonality, say more about that. How does social media reinforced tonality waving it sort of up to ninety Facebook, twitter ensanguined. Picked up whatever you out That's tend to do anything without a trustee. I mean the end of this month in just three also totally understand to manage it. So I mean Facebook in solar back. Do you, like you, decide you, like you decided, I mean Just like you know what image gave your plans and feeling turn watching Minsk, emu unpleasant feeling too, so that's it He saw a lot of people get a lot out of watching. Can we do that? back home there, Ok, then, feeding to you see a few lovely cats you feel a feeling too.
at that level, I think it's very good for people, but at the same time, If you want to reinforce enclaves, unfeeling, told you say lots of sticking above somebody was not done anything. I need you and so many can offer. I don't know how you called the forts acts. So that's it If you say you no bad thing about somebody, even if they dont do it, then each reef and force the unpleasant tonight in some of the story, but in order for you to make yourself seemed better, you need somebody wheeze unpleasant. I mean if you are in any group, didn't you you and somebody? Where are you going the erect the unpleasant ass to leave them timing, community and they said something I observed that time to time who does problem? We one person and then we lack a radar looking for all,
the bad thing they did not seeing the good thing they did, but just a bad thing. They did. So you look all the time for but they did. But when you got a problem with that person, looking for all the bad thing, they did you not programme with anybody else but all your own present reality was fixated. That way and then went about, went, live he's. Hopefully Then suddenly you little things. I'm plan with other people and he was not to stop get it to one person and then society you can targeted to a group. And so you have lots of plan feeling too high because everyone, using all we break off regrettably so terrible over there aren't. We greatly regret- and I think, unfortunately, spoken treated there really using that people are really using it to you.
We give companies unfeeling turn about certain people and then present Turning to my group strategy that will, let me go back to the practical application here we talk about how one can explore and see. More familiar with how feeling tones outbreak, in the mind at a very micro level in meditation and that we talk a lot about you sure scaling that up to our day to day life, can you say more about exact how in our mind we can catch the feeling tones before act on them blindly? Actually, I would say What's so much in the mind, but actually in the body for me think what I mean when I say the mind is all of it after the words that I dont think I mean just like thinking. I mean what I say
mind, I think I mean the mind and body, but me you can maybe tell me that I'm pulling myself. So what do you mean to love practice like let's talk about practice and then always scale it in daily life? So internal practice, you sitting radiation- and you do the same thing you do but you're trying to become aware of, cannot become aware of the reality of these contacts. Contact with brass contact with the sensation contact with the sun And then you go out in daily life, so fast you you have to. Beware of the quality of our experience. The oil there is a little different. There is a little different to. What is interesting is to notice a difference in tonality. You could send differences, mood. Then you go in daily life.
It didn't realize. Suddenly you feel like you ever, let alone pleasant tonality. I think you notice the unpleasant more than the pleasant but person I think it's a good practice also be aware of the pleasant bullets. You'll get the unpleasant saw you. How about your day and you feel reluctantly fine and then you suddenly, we very often the heart area all the way. The area. You feel a little generally we're perception menu. Why do I feel this is a sad commencing with anger, the decency that, in a way, Unless somebody is attacking you and then you have to really rare creatively, engage fats nazi. There is a little different, I feel something does it feel and then noticing. What's a quota
Even somebody somebody sand is it something I saw ensuing away to Caesar shift. That, I think fast to be aware, is a shift or when you see somebody I mean if you want a good example in terms of being in the streets, are so interested you go in the street, basically ensure person look at people, you see people any immediately, or I like that one. I dont like that I like their dress. I dont think they dress, so just to be aware that, actually I look in different people, Silly, because some perception I'm going to have a different reality, even though I dont know, then this is what is interesting in general, the strain You don't know them. An you ever told energy use He has somebody Emmy. You have a beer.
Before voice. So people helium my like that, but you when he had a different wise people, myself. I don't like the worries and because I don't like the wise going to listen to them, and this is interesting. What what is it. that make us dinner we creatively engage already asked, makes this kind of appreciate all makers, dismissal makers, Bush we because we have to be aware of our staff and kind of watches on full, not harmful, but within that all an excellent place Personally, I do lots of meditation when I drive you drive? What's it needs you think about something else. You stacking of traffic jams What do you do? What do you do? What tonality when you're stuck in traffic jams
say you are in your wife and you are traffic jam. Do you keep pleasant feeling tore out because it plans and then suddenly you started the unpleasant. The person. Next to you, what happens, Hardway transmitted the plans and other pleasant. This is what is interesting, that we can also act on the pleasant and we can make a culture. Do I want to continue these to be employed in some way or when you look all this I mean the show window? I mean you know you see something in this like the field she's calling out to you my one is: I don't know, I will point seventy three and a half this point in time where I live times square when I M in New York on all these exceeding the new they can
everything is done so that it create unpleasant feeling. So you want it and just to see that I'm looking at what's my terminology and connection to them? So in this exploration I described so well, because what I am hearing you say, as you know, that this is like an experiment. You can run in your own mind and body, let's go back to neutral set promised to talk about, this earlier, I said I want to talk about this. I believe you spoke about. and you may have hit it a little bit in this interview that we have haven't seen to overlook the neutral, but there. A way actually to relate to it differently. That can we can make neutral a more positive experience and change serve our baseline for being in the world can
you say more about that. Yet to me, Actually I would look at up. So there is a beacon of like a little discussion in German the bodies, the reference C4 neutral, exist or does not exist, but even at the time of the vote that they were discussing this, so I don't think we need to go there, but we could see it as a useful concept, and so for me, I can see it as a useful concept in two ways, what, if we could see through more as a baseline sin way, we go up. Plans and go down and unpleasant, and then we come back to them. this line of neutral, That's the way. We cannot feel all the time, unpleasant all the time at present, but a lot of the time we going to experience neutral he's gonna rang the way the system is rusty and he cannot be ignored indeed all or be suffering in a way so fantastic,
I see it as a rest for best line folded. organisms. The second thing that can be useful in terms of the neutral user in a way if your letter, you depressed and everything is really unpleasant? you think all I'm like minus six unpleasant and I need to go back to plus five pleasant, then is going to be like seamen impossible task, but actually only have to go back to neutral, and that could be possible. Something just go a little bit because we have a strange benchmark for pleasure as plus fine, I think, needs increased surrender of pleasant and give us more possibility into more unpleasant and pleasant. This neutral baseline, just picking up on that, you can see why Perhaps evolution would have created us to have a head
trigger reaction to the negative so that we survive and to have a higher bar for the pleasant. So that were really motivated to look for food and other pleasant things that also help us survive. big any sense what do not liking to reality. Is this: is it So I am of course, of course, totally totally and then, with a neutron soon to see more, Is it cannot base line a resting place but also to see that in the tax issue, dazzle legible. They have all been reach reality or you could. I would you could call inside for tonality calming. the terminology and then the reaction to the two would be very different so that in We issued ordinary, pleasant tonality. You would go into I more. I want to repeat see it in future.
Ordinary, unpleasant analogy. I can't stand it, I hate to see it and then you would amplified that way. If it sure all you get confused not knowing what to do, but if you have to know because you don't mind for less, which is war. Wise lacquer tonality, when she's pursued the experience in no wise way, then actually to be what you call a kind of something which would be more insight for they made the day. Friends lucky he acquired lot neutrality with equanimity. And basically said you can ever make one image you which is about. I don't care. It doesn't bother me who cares, but following that, stop through equanimity, and he says you can like insightful equanimity actually equated often Windsor me no swine flu
never mind will mean that the mine behind this luminous, but when you, only twenty minutes and insightful becomes luminous and thought equate that when you experience tonality, if it's inside, for actually you going to feel these, you could say contented com contented. clarity, so he does well to do in the way the neutrality as perceived as feeding grounds, feeding stable anyway feeling common clear. I love this it away, and these are really fundamental practice. Fur hacking, our habits serve not being so controlled by autumn activity, Anna has so many ramifications for in our own inner, whether moment to moment and then, of course, for how we are in the old and how retreating other people
a person, I would also connected to ethics moving away. look it s. The extension look, for example, at the five police precept. The first one is: do not kill. All you could say do not cause harm. Why Cause harm general we cause harm We can have a serial killer, which is something else. I send you step, which is something I will briefly ordinary person Why do we have often like you- will your wife it's the same unpleasant. Then I'm going to retaliate, thing is unpleasant. I'm going to get rid of it, I'm going to kill it and so? In a way I mean mosquitoes you get the bite. You killed a risky to immediately sent away. Something is unpleasant. We want to get rid of it, and so these first presented is ok,
How can I be homeless, which will mean? How can I creatively engage with unpleasant finality specially game bound by the outside. Where did the same you experiencing very unpleasant to actually you going to harm yourself. You know he's gonna. How can export some pleasant reality that he'd be inside or outside, the way that they can create a jubilee gay and then the second one is still not still? Ok, do not take what she's? Not even. Why would we take some fee because give us present feeling turns off. I what this I want this for myself turn away. If we take, something which is not given to assist in only because of an unpleasant feeling too, and then we could question. Ok,
this thing is going to leave me present, feeling twond, but for how long? This is interesting in everything I. If we get this, Then I'll be happy there, another unpleasant feeling dawn, and then you still talk you take advantage of somebody to get it. How long does it last. You know nothing about this the Buddhist. Nothing can give pride and satisfaction. We could learn to be contented content, possibly by more simple, live so that we don't have to what are your things all the times lead we after ratchet up the prison feeling too, I think that's the thing about that one. Then you have the someone to be careful with our sexuality and it's the same. Often we ve sexual. Pleasure? You cannot get lost in your own pleasure and don't think about. It was a person and myself home. Then
so can you think about your own pleasure without being lost in it without taking advantage, but also for talking about the other person pleasure Also accepting it will not last eat will not plants. Then you are lying is interesting Why would we lie. either. You lie because other unpleasant feeling too, I can figure. Our children, they break something, you have the virus broken. they were all taken not doing so in a way a nobler than feeding and then you'd. right through to lie so that he goes all you lie, become its pleasant. Some people like that Why? Because it gives us a place
personality. I did didn't. I need that when they know not a whit, it's interesting line. What's behind it, sometimes because its unpleasant sometimes go these plans and for the person to long and then the fierce one I'll call on drugs. again. When do we take these often because its present, but a lot of the time, because we have unpleasant feeling too Recently I read about a young woman fell in love with alcohol when she was fifteen got a first class of strong liquor gave her these amazing tonality. She found lively, intelligent fun before. She was very shy and anxious ass. She fell in love, she said with alcohol and then she drank and drank it
drank? The cylinder lies in the next thirty. She had to stop because she used to have terrible blackouts. But she said she fell in love in the same vein, she had such pleasant feeding turn at the beginning and she was gone with the wind untying the same thing, but why? Because it replaced unpleasant tonight Or because the thing is, you present reality, but then he could be harmful to others. You know him the time we're gonna, decent human. Be then, time to time we not. and then that's what I'm interested in well, what happened
and a lot of the time it has to do with temerity. Let me ask you a question that may seem like a non. Sequitur may also seem like a gigantic question, but I'm curious to hear you talk about a question. I've heard you pose publicly before we is what is love and what is not less so interesting. What is love you know, that's why I never lobbies and vanity and actually the Buddha said pleasant, analogies very important special. if it's inside fallen, wise and compassionate, and so what is it Again, we ve learned nothing, lobbies, unimportant quality and its soul. Told love, that'd, be your partner,
your children anymore, the ass, the planet, people because it gives us a very heavy tenacity. But then the question is: why do we grasp that when we? love. Do we grasp the pleasant analogy we get when we are next to the process? So then we want to be with the person or the time because we think they give so pleasant to manage it all do we grass at the idea of love, and actually we ass, pure. What I'm looking at these we grasp the pleasant analogy we supposed to have with this first and again, because we think we need to be told the time. The way you cannot have the same pleasant analogy, we were person all the time tendencies
we would be in a bad mood. Your distress, you love difficulty. So then, if you all stress with difficulty then you're not going to experience the same pleasant feeling which your equates with love, So then, when you don't have that prison, she didn't believe me. You don't love the person They don't lie you all. That's the way. Love is something which is not just based on tonality here, but is something we cultivate too Heather, and so in a way to me, love is like two parallel line. You have to calculate side of the line, we was a friend and different thing like that, and you have to calculate inside the line so he's not just of feeling glistened weak weight. five feet? This ceiling, I love the purser and if I feel of didn't tens pleasant feeling told I love this person.
Philip Pleasant, Philip told these breast and loves me enough. That's an interesting went to and then in the wind blowing cease warm feeling, but he's kind of a complex sculleries appreciating sharing growing together, they saw anything in love, so many things in it. but one thing which is also important. We love you that we love each other in a way, if we don't know each other. This is what is problematic so anyway, you stuck with yourself don't flatter yourself. You stuff, we went downstairs unfeeling torn by If you allow yourself, then it's very easy to have a pleasant feeling too, because you are in your son and then, in a way, loving someone else is an addition to there, and then you can
Bring more people in your long in these beautiful cannot love pleasant, feeding, tone which is based on common clarity, friendliness appreciation still working on it. Let me ask you one other question, and I think this is related Marisa, the pretty, to help prepare me to do this interview identified a nice poem that you wrote, the little lazy guide to awakening and the first lines are enlightenment question mark the light is already on. What do you mean by that? this is something in the school. I was trained on witches in school, son, schooling, Korea, and from them? We are already enlightened, we're out
ready awakened and I think what it means either our creative potential. Is always there our creative potential for wisdom focused have so far ratified. The standing is always a wee bit. We have that possibility at the same time is not on in the fact that it will always manifest so that yeah, Enlightenment awakening wisdom, compassion is possible, any moment but at the same time over time? we have built up a lot of automatic reaction. Actually, our automatic reaction was more entire ignored in order to protect ourselves and also some influence from society from culture. I think that when we become adults in a way to see all, why do I need to do this?
Oh. Why do I need to do that as personally, see the meditation, the practice of meditation the practice of anchoring of looking deeply. As in the winds and decency, all those harmful Survivor mechanism Suez habits and to have a physical habits. Relationship forbids its emotional, it will cover. We know a limitless. And then in went to saudi authorities also, so that we can come back to our creative function anyway. The Surely there we always creates you functioning organism. Over time. There have been a lot of color religion, fixed habits and then And he's gonna Raby practising to deserve this habit so that our creative potential can emerge can money?
France and one way to really experiences, is doing what it all meant it achieve listening. So you listen to somebody And generally, how do we listen offer? We wait for the person to stop. So we can say something much more interesting all we look in the right direction, but we do events when they say what do you think we have? No, idea what they set off, We all know, react and amplify, which is not helpful, but if we really listen to them really listen to what they say: totally andred person, then at the moment they stop in their turn to us, then a lot of the time we say something so creating so clear so complex. so relevant. We ve never thought before so why? Under these come from he come from meeting another person,
We that com is a clarity that friendly bears that stability is a balance. then we ve seen lots of creativity can come in. This seems like the work of a lifetime. Both this getting out of your own way and here. A paradox in there of, on the one hand, the capacity The light is already on always so it's there and we can access it at any moment, using perhaps mindfulness of Baden, our or other buddhist techniques or other techniques that are even not Buddhists and we can get better at the scale of accessing it any more exactly. I think you totally get it that in a way at one level, in what we call the sudden and grandeur in the song practice
in a this idea of sudden awakening, which is always the possibility. Same time of gradual practice because of certain awakening is not immediately to stop the habits. So I really, this woman's great wisdom, gray compression and then, at the same time you have to work on yourself. You have to contribute So in a way we gotta wait a little bit, then the cross roads are what are called the deaths dimension. and then the weeds damage say that again, the depth They're dead stems, and so in a way that Debs dimension, I would say, is generally a little bit limited in terms of conditions. Will you my practice, so you might reflagged and it's gonna black Laplante slowly, the limited lock on retreat. on a day of practice when you refugee and then
who sailor you for cars and so in weather conditions are limited, and then you can go into the depths of the practice. but at the same time you have to calculate in the width of the practice, which is your daily life, your release, the way you use resources away. You treat people in your office, etc, etc. so it seems to me we always at the crossroads of the Deaf summons, there's something People see all just a dead just debts, want to have amazing meditation experience it, but, those are the deal with their habits, so you need the deaths with the whites and sucking me at the crossroads in that level
practice at any given moment. I think that is a great and inspiring placed to leave it. This has been to no surprise at all to me, an incredibly rewarding that- and I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much of pleasure to discuss ways you sent you thanks again to Martine great to see her the show is made by Samuel Johns Dj Kashmir can buy Coma Maria we're tell and gin point out with engineering from violet audio. We also get special help on this episode from Donno Wedderburn. Thank you don't know, as always, big to my ABC News. Comrade rang Catherine Josh CO hand we'll see you on Friday for a bonus
Transcript generated on 2021-08-18.