« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

The Anti-Diet | Evelyn Tribole

2020-12-23

I, like many people, have the potential to get pretty dysregulated around food and body image. A lot of men don’t talk about this stuff, but there is plenty of evidence that this is a unisex issue. Especially during the holidays, when we’re surrounded by treats and stress-eating because we can’t see our family, or we can -- and they’re making us crazy. 

This interview you’re about to hear changed my life. That’s an overused phrase, but in this case, it happens to be true. I came into this conversation with a rather hostile attitude toward my own body, filled with unrealistic expectations and unsustainable restrictions. Over the course of this encounter, you will hear my mind start to change. And ever since this interview was recorded, about a year ago, I have been working one-on-one with my guest, Evelyn Tribole, on these issues. 

Evelyn is the co-creator of something called “Intuitive Eating,” which you can think of as kind of the anti-diet. Diets, she argues, do not work. Worse, they lead us to mistrust our bodies, so we misread their signals and don’t even know when we’re hungry or when we’re full. Her approach is backed by science, and powered by mindfulness. 

Where to find Evelyn Tribole online: 

Website: https://www.evelyntribole.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/etribole

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/evelyn.tribole

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evelyntribole/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcfkldY3O0ly3XRh9B8Wt9A

Excited about our upcoming New Year's Challenge? Download the Ten Percent Happier app today to get ready: https://10percenthappier.app.link/install

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/evelyn-tribole-repost

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see this is the ten percent happier Podcast Game Harris hello, I I'll admit, like many people, I suspect, have the potential to get pretty dis, regulated around food and body image, a lotta mendel. I talk about this stuff, but there is plenty of evidence that this is a truly unisex issue, especially during the nowadays when were surrounded by treat, send stress eating, because neither we It's your family or we can, in their making us crazy. This interview, you're about to hear changed my life, that's an over used phrase, but in this case its genuinely true I came into this conversation and you'll hear this with a rather hostile attitude toward my own body filled with me. You know not so realistic expectations and unsustainable restrictions, etc, etc. Over the course,
interview. You will hear, as my mind starts, to change and ever since this interview was recorded. About a year ago, I have been working one on one with my guest Evelyn AAA on these issues: Atlantis Co. Creator of something called intuitive eating, which you can think of is the kind of anti diet diets she argues do not work worse. They lead us to mistrust. Our bodies, so when we misread their signals, we don't actually know. when we're hungry or when we're full. Her approach is backed by science and powered by mindfulness. We wanted to repost this the because twenty twenty one, as you know, is days away, and some of you might be thinking that it's time to completely reinvent yourself or maybe get your body quote back into shape, but, like Evelyn. We hear on the show, our pretty sure that fat diets and restrictions and recriminations and self loathing are not the way to go astray.
Really after everything we ve been through this year. So we percent happier are doing the new year thing differently. This year were actually gonna go for the opposite of self loathing self love. I will readily met that you can pretty easily sprain your eyes by rolling them back into your head. In the face of the unremitting genus of self love, I will also admit that, if improperly executed self love can even lead to passivity or self obsession We, however, are not gonna. Let that happen where it be kicking off this new year series next week with new episodes featuring Koromo from queer eye on Netflix who, in addition to being a tv star spent, yours is a social worker and psychotherapist will also be doing an episode with the psychologist Chris Burma who the creator of a wildly popular programme called mindful self compassion
how then starting on Monday January. Fourth, we're gonna be launching a free new year's meditation challenge on the ten percent happier app. You can learn how to put into practice all the wisdom that these brilliant guests will be dropping right here on. The podcast will have some the world's most renown meditation teachers dropping from knowledge in this challenge, including Susan Piper, twenty Sola, and Warren. If you're at all sceptical about the notion of doing a challenge check out this, from a woman named Michel who participated last year, the twenty one They challenge has given me the structure that I needed to really start meditation. The bite size. Lessons are a great way for novices t ease into the brain so whether you're a long time practitioner or youth, never ever sat on the cushion before
join literally thousands of other people, including me all participating. At the same time, she want to sign up just download the ten percent happier app right now or you can go to a ten percent dot com. It's ten percent. One word all spelled out and get the up there. All right. Let's diving now with Evelyn Tripoli, greater meet you like I'm so excited. We hear those record time for this, yet it absolutely. How did you get into meditation is so bizarre he was a circuitous route, the launch story is when my mom was dying of cancer. I had to keep missing sessions with patience and I would tell them why shouldn't because flaky and so patient, give me a book called mindful grieving. Remember looking at it thinking why the hell do. I want to feel my grief. I am a ten of sadness and it broke may open noticed during those times I practice mindfulness. As I knew it back, then I was just a little baby meditated
but I know there are times as neutral. There was time to actually was happy, even though no my mom was dying, and so it open something up taking this is this is really funny. I took a profession retreat with someone who's ASEAN then master in a pediatrician us for health professionals and I'll. Never forget this, internally made us meditate, I thought I was going to die. I call my best friend They made us meditate two times that now we're gonna go into silence and long story short here I am. I fell in love with meditation. I now train with some Dan Brown, whose just an amazing teacher for me. I've never met them. he's at Harvard he's at Harvard and the thing that appeals to me personally, I'm a sceptic. That's what I lived about your story, I'm a sceptic! I'm always, though, in asking the questions and because he is also an academic and a practitioner, he the very satisfying relationship with my mind, you know and he's he's just really really gifted and in one and most humble persons, I've ever met especially being a harvard you know. So how did you find him? I got his book
we really big book about the stages the meditation Mohammed murderer, putting out the way, and I bought it- put it down five years later. I picked it up and it blew away and I had the I realized. I had the illusion that was meditating, but I was not meditating properly and if I've gotta go to meet this guy, I've gotta go train with him and I did and that's what just knocked me over. So would you say you weren't meditating properly, but he pointed out the way to do it properly. War was at war with a difference, What is the difference there in the technique between with meditation mangles all over the place and one of the techniques he has I'm going to decent details and somebody teacher, but really how you practice the awareness of your brow the entire way and really noticing, when you leave noticing, when you have partial ized concentration in these types of things, and so the other thing about him. As a teacher when you go into retreat with him he's there the whole time usually in other retreats, I've been, and you have a teacher from about an hour and then but there's constant interaction. I connected with it very deeply so
When you say you went and met him. Did you just say hey? Can I get a little bit of time? Are you show up and no no, I showed up to one of his retreat. I signed up and it was so funny was held at a monastery says like I'm like that. I'm gone in deep here and it was great. It was really really great and I have become you talk about being ten percent happier. I think I'm I'm a ten percent better person which makes people around me happy or you complex before, I think I was- I Didn'T- think I was reactive and I realize wholly molly- so reacted. But this thing that has changed with me: I'm telling this would damage just met a couple months ago, is that I have age I actually this Agnes sound terrible before I would do the right thing cause you're supposed to, but now like I actually genuinely care, it's it's hard to put into words. this is, but this connection- and this passion and you talk a lot about the womb staff. The most stuff- and I'm like that can now here I am talking about the room she stuff and it's like We have to end all suffering, and so what this is done in my career
you get another one person, but it has Lit my my my passion for what I do to a level. I expect what happened to put an end to unnecessary suffering as relates to mind and body, because there's so much unnecessary suffering around eating and body and judgment and shame, and you talk about conceptual mind, my gosh, the rules in the concepts in the judgments that are out there is a need to watch people's lives. change. You know it's there's a technique that we created through intuitive eating over twenty five years, but we ve updated it all along and the cool thing is theirs. research on our method, and it just it just warms my heart and ways. I just can't begin to describe we're gonna go deep diet, culture, it lets you stay with your practice for a set. Of course it would you call yourself now a Buddhist I am they d take refuge here, but you know it's funny. I don't talk about I'm taking refuge for this. If you take a vow, the basically you know you take refuge in. If you're, just you took refuge
Buddha determine the song and song again, and you know one of them troubling parts of it. This in a sound, really silly, but I just show you where I was back at the time- is that they have to have to cut off some your hair and I've heard you talk about your own So the idea of losing some of your hair first ceremony was yes, it is, is about letting go not having attachment, but the reason I dont use you talk about it is, I don't want to be in that uttering place being different, I'd rather five. What we have in common is a sin. someone's as soon as I say, I'm buddhist, then walls might come up from some other people around, but the I consider myself, a secular Buddhist, meaning I dont know what happens in the life after, but I loved the principles in the philosophies and it's a beautiful way to live without without judgment without having to recruit other people. Yes, oh yes, that's exactly where you were so well, For you, you don't give your life. History was the most valuable application of Buddhism internally. Was it the kind of the coming of the mine that comes with learning, how to focus on the breath? And then, when you get distracted starting again was
The mindfulness that comes from doing that. Where you see how crazy you are and then the craziness doesn't own you as much or was it will you driving earlier. This kind of compassion or a combination of all of the aforementioned answer answered indifferent way. It's funny when I'm meditating, I don't get all these places that some people do. But I see meaning all these experiences meditating realising aspects of the mind what it does for me is like this is slow unfolding. All of, and I will my god- I've changed because I'm not reactive, oh my gosh. I have discernment and places so I call it frees for a moment and italian experience experience because you might relate to it because your son, so my son, was three and I was on a book deadline and my office downstairs I was facing the can he comes in and he says hi mommy. I don't even see him, but something cause me to turn around and look in his little eyes and something was off and are you okay and also start
He just watched a goofy goes to college because I don't want to go to college and leave you. I can't leave you and that that scene haunted me not Highsmith, I'm so glad I paid attention this before meditation, but I call it off. he's very moment. So what happens now being a meditate her? I have a lot more of this. We frame moments where I noticed something and I something with it? I didn't notice it, and maybe I become not react. You ever, maybe have more discernment and what I would I decide to do. It's some. I have more. Patients like I've never had, and I M kind of a high energy person and prettier and its and damp I've dampened elevate that, while over you're like before so there's another thing, I've I've had some people say: oh there frayed that they would change if they became at a tailor, I haven't changes, whereas I personality the energy, the passion is Oh there and but the differences that the compassion and the less reactivity I'm a better person because right
right. I mean I've experienced the same thing and I still have many many many flaws. It's just that the volume comes down a little bit on the flaws you have feel it give more visibility of them and into them an agency in the face of them, so does it tibetan phrase that I have quoted many times on the package that for enlightenment, translates in to a clearing away yet ringing for over the last year, away a lot of noise and junk any bring forward that your your beer, the better angels nature or just sort of your better judgment, etc, etc. And that's my experience of how this work, I would completely agrees that it is high to put into words and the slow unfolding, and sometimes I'm hesitant, to put it into words and talk about how amazing I feel that I want to have an
dictation. Someone be disappointed. Us is a slow, evolutionary kind of look back off the cushion NGO wow. You know yes, yes, that's actually wrote so ok. So how does everything we have just discussed apply to eating? I tell you this bear in mind that cackle, you just heard is from a practising Buddhists, has taken away came under the progress when I say that with approval. Just thank you, I feel really validated nothin. I need it, but I do so. Here's one way, I'd like to say just as the practice of meditation is an insight job. It's inside the practice of intuitive eating is also an inside job and its connecting to your body and, I have to say, I'm also a geek. I love research and one of the euro to live their lives. So you can you oh yeah robbers, much sciences. So this has been an inner then are second away. I think you might like, and if you don't that's, ok, too, so the
cases of intuitive eating, too self care eating framework and its it's based officer. What does that mean? I once said taken care of, self interest on the superficial level, but at a deeper level it's based around something called interest: sensitive awareness that term That means it's our ability to perceive physical, sensations that arise and the body the unknown, the experience or meditation. But let me tell what so brilliant about it. It reveals states like a full bladder people not to do with a full bladder, thank God, hunger and forests. but every emotion has a physical sensation and someone. In touch with the physical sensations of our body. We actually have a treasure to information to get our needs met. All of this is happening on the right side of the brain in the insular and guess what meditated have more insolent intercept of awareness, which is kind of cool? I consider it our Superman, our. So when we are aware of physical sensations, it's giving us information. What do I need right now when you to sleep and my lonely, these kinds of things too,
problem in the challenge in today's culture: diet, culture is that people are at war with their bodies. Am you hate your body? It worth your body you're, not listening to the messenger. It is like you're fret, your best friends knock under hey, hey. I have some information ray. You know like going away when spawned that information is called intercepted receptivity. But we're saying I get out of here and and when people start down the rabbit hole of all these different kind of diet, lifestyles, whatever you want to call it, they disconnect from their body and they start to distrust, sensations. Cats are trying to figure out fake hunger. Faithfulness ignores all this by hacking, always bio. How can be extra? This extra that, whereas like how about listening to or bodies about that? Ok I've known question a please. Let me just start with the basis for foundational question, so intuitive eating with something you design. Twenty five
years ago or you started meditate, cracked. Ok, so you stick by that framework, but you super charge it with the mindfulness. Is that correct will take its interesting? It's it's kind of not correct, because a tailor mindful eating intuitive eating or two different things there very compatible under different and the biggest differences with intuitive eating. One of our biggest directives was ten principles is rejected, diet mentality, Michael based eating, doesn't doesn't have, you absolutely need awareness to access intuitive eating for sure. In fact, when we wrote the book John Cabin Zens Book for catastrophe, was only out thing for about four or five years was the first time I've seen the term mindful eating in the vernacular and because mindfulness wasn't endeavour the natural or with the description of having conscious consciousness, which now would say having awareness around it. So I would say anyone coming in from mindfulness based background or meditation backgrounds. Gonna have more access to. I get excited when administrators is as patients and clients, because they can access this a little bit better, but living and dying culture they too have rules and judgments are not even aware of its leg.
fish in water like what's what's water right? You know right yeah, so to me, and full eating would just be in my experience of it is just bringing your full attention to the process of eating which, if anybody ever gone on a meditation retreat, you eat slowly, you doing everything slowly here you eat less. You find, because you are aware, when you're fall and your actually tasting your food and putting your fork down between bites I've had trouble doing offer treat. So I understand that I am from. If, if I'm standing it correctly, you are, I, u show one can, do that without having a conscious rejection of the water that you reference, which is the diet culture in which we all swim. Is that a faithful reproduction of what you just said? No and I will tell you why, because people are not aware of the diet culture, so they might be saying that their listening to their hunger informers. That's all
That's a great start. That part is correct, but if, in their mind there saying I shouldn't be eating this much because its rules of diet, culture that interferes with the aware, still even aware of that. That's an issue so sometimes at my favorite quest it s, to ask you a question: can you ask because I struggle with the with the stuff so my question to you down is: what does your mind go when you're eating? Who I dont see? Oh, ok, that's what I'm talkin about most here don't, and so I think, mindful eating. As is awesome thing, I went to one retreat with a practitioner athletic owing to train with someone. I want to really understand the model and its beautiful you're in sensation of eating taste. Texture of that kind of stuff how it feels, but working with mind in terms of where you going, I compare your body with someone else's body or you compare your food to someone else's food that sitting next to you. Take it on my guide to get more than I did when you're retreat. That happens a lot. You know, I'm sorry, I'm talking really fast so part of what this is. So here's here's, the conundrum did. I see it
years ago, when I would ask somebody you know, could you eat your meals, distraction. I used to get a pretty much a yes on to that and now it's as if I'm asking to give away their firstborn, because the question- I guess I do what I do- cuz you're so used to mind being occupied, and so one thing I will start with as well. Could you could you commit to one meal You know what I do want to make someone do it there. I was. I will always respect honestly, the answer's. No, then ok, we're gonna find another way and where I met right now, but some people like how about can commit to three bites and having awareness the first by the middle bite the end by just to get so connection of? What's going on, what's the food tastes like what your body feel like you know, all these kinds of things that go on, and so what I find that's missing in the Mediterranean, worked with, is not knowing when the mind goes when their eating, they think Oh I'm eating without distraction. This is really great. I would say yes, that's great, but where's the mind where's the money, and if your mind is a distraction, then you're not really connecting with your body, but the cool thing as you get to the point of effortless effort
don't have to be a monk and meditate to get this process down, but when you're in the learning curve it helps to have or of this awareness- and we know from research on a narrow plasticity. Four neurons to rewire together to fire together, there has to be awareness at the time, is coming out of Andrew Zimmermann's lab out of Stanford. So I think it's a really cool thing. You know Joe, I wanna keep, pushing a little bit of pushing on the difference. I think I think by this point the listener will have understood what mindful leading is, which is again bringing our full attention to the best of your ability. while you're eating added a taste of the food to the sensations in your body in and when you get distracted starting again right? So I think that we got that down. So what's left for us to do right now is to dive deeper into intuitive. Eating. Am what the deer It is their right right right, I'll, say one more thing: they look into those differences. So a scholar we were in this great discussion on Facebook.
What is intuitive eating an intuitive eating, poster writing beautiful things. I wrote beautiful things I thought and to debating she comes in and says: well I think intuitive as a framework of self care eating and mindful mindful eating. Is a skill set Atomic God, that's beautiful, it's nice and short. So that's another! looking at it is well very compatible testing. If anything, it was theirs. Come away this is very compatible, but when you start looking at it from a research base, its important no there's a difference in their so yes are. One of the big things is rejecting the diet, mentality and one of my ass. She had a debate. I was not a conference panel with some mindfulness experts, and I said you know my position is it puts people on the path of unnecessary suffering if it can only let them know I'm part of the secret, and that is if your dieting, it's gonna, hijacked this whole process when you're dieting the mind goes external. How much in
how much and that how much driveway went about the macros and we need to be going insight instead. So it's a path to having less suffering, but don't we need to know you refer to Macros MA am sorry. I did that he find at a time, but don't we need to have the basics of nutrition down. For example, I went to a moved. I gave up animal products but a year and a half or two years ago, and I had to do a big edges when the decision is a vision, nutritionist who taught me how to do this without making myself sick, yellow learning that and getting a sense of like I'm getting a protein today, so that I have enough energy, no, we don't need to have. Some external will hear. The answer is kind of, and here's how her? Oh, I will say it. The tenth principle of intuitive eating is on your health, with gentle nutrition and the reason we kept it as we made at the last principle. At least they both have master science, erasing attrition that use your co authors, she's the collateral naming and police rash, ok, yeah, and when we love ice,
I'm I'm the nerd geek on on the team, and I must say that what we love nutrition, but what we found is if we introduce that too soon, it interferes with the process of checking in some more timing issue. Yes, health absolutely counts, but if we do it too soon it becomes problematic gotcha. So ok, so we don't need to go there now of a row, so walk us through the rest of the prince, ok. So we reject a diet mentality. That's an amazing, that's easier said than done, because it's everywhere your hundred, that's pretty straightforward under your hunger, don't stifle it if your hungry! and if this is actually a normal experience, it lets us no. We need to eat it's in and actually that the sad part isn't I've. Seen this a lot with my patients. Is you ve tried to ignore hungering you try to fake it out, guess what happens you end up into this? What I call primal you crossed that line, I don't care, I'm going to eat you, I'm so hungry and and people have a lot of guilt around that and they don't realize guess what this is your biology. This is your body really
the working well, we ve seen that in a classic Minnesota starvation study of familiar with that, I'm gonna tell you about it. So these guys were college men who consciousness conscious. Just in world WAR two and to be in this study. They had to be super duper healthy, biologically and psychologically passed all these exams, and then there are on a semi starvation diet for a period of months. We saw what happened to them. Predictably, they became malnourished. But what was really shocking? What happened to their mine? They started collecting recipes and cookbooks. Nobody would do, is talk about food and when give this talk at universities, I tell them, and these men lost interest in sex and when I say They know how profound that is, because the there's, no there's no energy than some of the and started been cheating and crew. at creating eating disorders and on average, is guys we're getting they weren't starving there having around seventeen hundred hours a day, so this became the a study on the comp psychological consequences of of under under eating?
so we ve known ascend since then, when we ve looked at all the research has come out on dieting when you die messes up your mind, like increases, risk of eating disorders. The active dieting actually causes rebound. Wakened, multiple, don't know this, but by year five, it's gonna come back. The most consistent predictor of waking is I'm going on a diet, regardless of how much when you started West right suit, so shut out to grace Livingston one of the provision on the show who sent me. This may be an excerpt from you. Oh oh, but there is not a. This. Is a quota, there is not a single long term study that shows that weight loss, dieting is sustainable. Study after study shows that dieting in food restriction for the purpose of weight loss. leads to more weight, gain S, weight gain worse. The focus and preoccupation on weight leads to body dissatisfaction and wait stigma which negatively impact hell. Yeah, that shocking? Isn't there shocking? So when I have talked conversations with doctors, I would say in it would you prescribe
medication that, by your five actually causes more problems actually causes heart attacks as opposed to clearing out arteries there like hell. No that's. Why would you prescribe weight loss than in It's a complex area of science and so what a lotta healthcare pirate practitioners do. They follow policy, but are not following the research it doesn't work so that the question is: what do we do? We can oh, do healthy, behaviors waits, not a behavior weight is not a behind you're in the people have so much shame when the weight comes back. They're losing the way like, especially on Instagram. Oh my gosh, all the before and after an it so loud, look at me, I feel so good and then, when it all comes back, you don't hear thing you don't hear like. I feel awful stop being so been ginning, really commoner common consequence of dining in terms of in terms of harm, you know, but is there really wrong with wanting your body certain way. He has really good question. I think in today's culture. The answer is, if it's all on this? That kind of pressure so-
the real issue when I went I'm working with patients it want to do this. Work is I'll tell them. Can you put this idea of weight loss on the back burner because if it your primary directive, it's going to interfere with the process and I can't even tell you what's gonna happen to your body with intuitive eating, you stay the same, you might lose weight, you might gain weight because, not healing your relationship with food. But it's it's. It's a really! Tough, when I say specially for women in this culture, but men as well, when you start looking at the incidence of eating disorders, one out of three people with an eighty two soldiers identifies as a man and the thing I've. and that so disturbing is that it sort of rates have doubled, a new study. Just came out and may looking at ninety different studies, they have doubled because diet and in my opinion culture has normalized this unhealthy relationship, rude social videos, Bertha,
I am sure it is, but so zoologist touches speak personally have to. I have mentioned before the pike. Yes, a little bugaboo of mine is forty. Eight, as we record this. I had like a brief shining moment in my thirty's, where I was single and was very fit very fit, and for the first time I had like visible Arabs in its the created. This little hobgoblin for me is low, but I dont like, as I've, got an older that I have more so girth around here, even though it's not much amiss thumbs, slim guy and and yet I notice it coming up it up again and again in this sort of self critical loop in my head, and so I wonder, are is what you're saying to me just drop that you know and is that even doable dropping the disease.
I too have the body look a certain way some ice made. My short answer is, yes drop. It Dan bet it that's a hard thing to say to anyone when they have that desire, because our culture reinforces this all the time, and so I start looking at. How does this make? You feel this constant comparison to a time in your powerful? So that's the thing I look. this is where we use that than the might of meditation, and that, as let's get a curious, non judgment. How does it make you feel I'm here again and comparing out has it as it affects you're eating in here's the thing that just kills may help. relationships, especially if you're really pursuing it because We are going out to dinner with your. Why for your friends- and that is really engaging in the conversation. The back your mind is chattering about. Well, I want to look this way. Why look this way? The diet says this guy says that and you're not connected Lira just described by last few dinners. Thank you so that harm that's harmful
and so I think that's why I get so many people, unsolicited e mails and dams. Oh my god, this changed my life and I think it changes because you're starting to connect with the people that are with you as opposed to play that game we're took the summit on the cell phone in their they're they're they're, saying the right word, but you can tell them out. There is the same kind of thing but how to you you'd knowledge, to your credit that this is hard to do sought? Yes, he did you know. I pass reflective surfaces on the regular in my bathroom yeah as I'm getting ready, and it's just this automatic thing of oh yeah. You know how does the body look right and then it's a spiral into negativity, knives. I've actually done a reasonable amount of work. Thanks to the former
in Grace Livingston who's, who is very interested in the stuff and gave the work of crystal nephews? Oh she's, right a lot about self compassion, so I have these little metal has that I've tried to develop that when I notice that voice kicking in right one unit Christine Neff has this great three part thing. The first is just to notice mindfully that you're gonna sucks. This is suffering to tests, to tune in to the fact that there are millions of people right now dealing with his exact same thing, sort of widen the land perspective and three to send yourself a little bit of good vibes, but I well, I found this to be useful serves, breaker on this habit loop, this habitual self laceration. I still have this question looming of. Well, aren't isn't up certain body type. You know muscular visible muscles. Isn't that a sign of good health and therefore is in a rational that I should
what this. Well, that's a loaded. Questions have been answered. Many ways. If I may you you can go as long as you want. Thank you. First of all, you cannot tell by looking at someone's body the health of their body. So there's someone who's kind of well known and Instagram named Wetware shanty who last year got fat shamed at the New York Marathon Mile, twenty one and twenty two she's in a big body. She acknowledges that Jesus Fit as can be so you can't tell by looking at someone's body but because of all the because we see on social media and then you being in the media yourself, there's a pressure. You have that I would say the average man doesn't Iago. Look at my face on television, yeah and so so part of this. I actually do another tick. I love Chris enough where she adopted some of her work and our or workbook to work with these kinds of things and so will put a liter interview in shown its about us it, and so I think one of the things we have to recognise here when you are talking about body in this case you're talking about leaf system and a value system. So this is not have happy thoughts and it goes away. This is we have to rule this out in this gonna take time in practice. So the only time no well
so one of the things I ve just got really curious with somebody to be a math genius and I said to her how many did you start having thoughts about your body, negative thoughts and think for her? It was aged ten. I think she was forty when I was talking to her and I said how many times did you think you ve had these negative thoughts and less multiply it out. It was like fifty million or something like that to suit so much suffering it so much suffering. But the point is so much offering absolutely so having fifty million hits of body. Shame versus three heads of a christian that's enough technique, which is awesome, but sometimes we have to speculation that I'm really you some loving kindness and self compassion. I wanna be our combined with my body and my answer, as I would love if that was true, but we need to know it's gonna take time and space because it's all around us, and so it's gonna, take these repetitions, and one thing I would add to this when comes to bodies, is to recognise I m, not a body. You have done some awesome things in your rewrite. I think I told you, I read your book and it's like damn look at all the stuff. You ve done you're, not a body, Europe
you're a dad you're report. Even all these amazing things you are not a body so times. I will have people acknowledge that I am not a body for some people here is low Buddhism. I ask people what you're by linear to make. What do you mean? I say well what about your mom and dad? How did they feel about their bodies about your grandparents and looking? How comes down the family tree is like no wonder this is not so easy just to uproot with a couple of compassionate compassion, Thoughts is something we need to do, but it's gonna, time and then, in your case you know, youth you ve got a family. And so one of the things I love to say when I'm working with parents is, I would love to stop the legacy in your family. I don't want your son to have these kinds of worries. I won T go, go Guph have fought and play go school instead it whatever he wants to do, but not be worried about the value of his body. Just to be clear, just to emphasise you made before you're, not saying be unhealthy, caress O. Absolutely I'm not saying that I have
met just the other day. I want another woman, not the woman, you reference to is in a big body herself and she runs marathons. Factual runs she's. Basically, an ultra marathon wound, that's her. What is I've forgotten? Her name? She was lovely ass. She was on good morning America, and just jeez radiant human beings and just counted out there, and so, if you, took, I would imagine we didn't do this, but if you went and took did blood tests on her and two dead, didn T cagey in all that stuff. I suspect you would find she's extremely healthy hand, so that the measure I think I'm hearing you say so in my case, for example, I recently got a work up and all the numbers came back. It's really positive, so maybe that's what I should be focusing on, rather than
You know how my pants fit exactly exactly and it didn't recognize it's going to be a practice to keep letting that go, no saying how it makes you feel during some, the compassionate, so I'll talk to her mentioning and and You are not a body much more of my conversation with Evelyn AAA right after this sting involved has never been more important. Information is coming in us faster than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bread milky from ABC News. In every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes. Straightforward reporting, dynamic, make interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust always credible, always solid start here from ABC News. Twenty minutes, every we get smart speaker or you figure podcast app So let me give you an example: when we talk about health, we need to be broader. It's not you
our bodies in what we eat. It also includes things like: are our mental health, our well being so determinants of health, all these kinds of stuff, how much sleep you're getting there was a really profound. study published in the nineties. It was, I called to a name, every study. I really this is to happen. I have so called the food worry study and they looked so the real it I wish. I was an affectionate laugh on that laughing at you know I was driving back at you I like to laugh is I wasn't even threat minor ones, but also what we cleared the audience that I'm enjoying this I'll get good. I like your energy. Thank you. so polarizing looked at for countries like the United States who looked at France, Belgium and in Japan and the United States. We in the? U S, we worried the most about what we eat and we enjoyed it. The least the French. On the other hand, oh my gosh, they love their food and they could care less about health back on. This This was done in Belgium in Japan, where somewhere in between and the thing said, was so profound? Was you know? We she worrying about a foods, gonna kill us or cheer us. We haven't looked at what the impact of that worry.
Because when you worry it raises cortisol, that's not good for health either, and that's what I'm saying right now. Is this too much worry around the eating like let's enjoy our food what is supposed to be enjoyable. It's a source of pleasure, and I will tell you that I was really lucky early in my career. I was on a task force with with Julia child when she want after the nutrition is to get along, so we'd have to meet once a month, come up with something, and it really impact in May in the message. The dietician nutritionists of the world's like when you're planning all this healthy stuff pleas for the love of God, considered taste and to the shafts. Please consider how The idea is not one way or the other. You know. I just come rocked my head back and recognition when you said the thing
worrying isn't just really lateral thinking. I spend a ton of time worry about this this morning. I'm saying a word: we're doing this interview in San Francisco, where I'm out here for work and my wife and son came and which is amazing, and I try whom we can get into this: try not to eat too much processed grain serve like bread, stuff, but elaborate, and now that I don't eat animal products is one of the few serve like sinful things available to me, so this morning, my okay, so so you she'd making a lotta gestures I'll, let you talkin seconds of this morning. My wife ordered avocado toast for me, when I got back to the gym, I ate it all but was enjoying it yes, but a lot of there was this worry going out of the background. So that's toxicity. Yes, yes, can I say safe now, guess please say that much as you want. So, first of all, that kind of worry taste robbed you from the Jew. I could feel in my body right now. So
and I wanna I want to mention something new, Sammy react when you said sinful. So when we start talking about food and moralistic terms its problematic, and I try my best we noted year, and especially with with kids, because kids are so black and white in their thinking? I had a bad food, therefore, I'm bad we give you some examples can break your heart. It breaks my heart dance, so does it happen to a kind gardeners? It's funny. I haven't really cool Instagram Fee where people comment in and say things it just gets, maybe even more energize, so someone's in a garden teacher remove the homemade cookie mom put in the in the lunch, because the kindergarten teacher said it was bad now, this little kindergarten three to eat this kind of food that mom pacts in the lunch richest to have that fear at five years old and about the parent having authority over what they want to pack in their kids launch thing like that at its then makes me sad
I'd rather the worry be somewhere else. You know, but not not with with with what were eating. We need to get back to the joy of it. I totally agree, and yet I lived the little voice in my head. I'm sort of Indonesia and good I'm glad you're cool with that is saying. Well, are eaten empirical evidence to suggest that some food is better for you than other food food. Let's go there. Okay, so here is a really interesting thing about data, live I'm developing kind of philosophy, and you can tell me what you think about this alone at the fearmongering it used to be from the media headlines from recent research news and that the media would sensationalize it now, I'm seeing that the universities are putting up press releases that are putting the sensation elastic stuff in there in the media is just merely reproducing it alive, these studies, showing quote bad effects like what you're describing or something called epidemics logical research were dissociation, not causation gosh did they can
for exercising this group: did they control for smoking? Did they control for sleeping there? So many things are missing. So these happy study, because they're so large numbers, thousands and thousands of people sometimes millions they get. They generate lots of headlines and these studies have a value that tells us. So you know what this is. This is interesting. We should study on on on human to see what an intervention day to make. What would an invent intervention trial make a difference? Will it change the quality of their life, and so we don't have that much data in nutrition that there's a lot of water soft stuff on there and so food becomes preached in terms of identity. Like it's a religion, you know It's it's amazing to me how this has happened, that people think that their better than other people, because they eat a certain way or that there that are not so good cause it. Indeed a certain way and so this is where we need to really removed morality from eating. You know, ok, so I hear you when you say that we should be skeptical of
research yankee. Are we not at a point where the researches dispositive on you know eating asleep Orioles? Let's look at that acacia, this sound sister! for the question right now. I hear that but see here's. The thing but the Orioles who would want to eat asleep. Whales? Would that feel good? You know so the people I made that would eat- is merely a tango that was not without that would not judgment on other people, This is even better than its use. It will go with it so much. Sperience people eat slaves of cookies are whole boxes and I were could lead people to do your sharing with somebody who used to o gay theirs, should deprivation. In that background there just like that, I should I can't have this food and therefore, whenever I personally myth ok. So so then, what is happening as the fight when they finally get it get to have it whatever there's an event that comes along there's an emotion way to say to hell with it. You eat those cookies, and you really know that moment. You never gonna have
get the you're, never gonna, I'm going to get him all right now. I can't because I'm right, you laughing you get it right. There just call your story to do right. So that's that's the issue, and so when someone says I rejoice in a recent, I'm so glad I'm simple, I will have to do it again advancing ironically. Originally. I think you're helping me right now in this moment, ought I think, by extension, you're gonna help tens of thousands. That's why I'm here aren't. I might yet from you, yeah yeah, just eleven eleven million? All thank you always taken in thinking. So one of those things I guess we haven't- talked about the third principle of intuitively under or one of em innovate so funny. I dont know that order. I can tell you what they are. I dont know that works. I never go in order. I go what what what the person needs, but one of the principles as the most misunderstood principle and controversial for those who don't get. It's called making peace with food, which means all foods fit, including Orioles, and the biggest fear question I get is: oh, my gosh Evelyn. If I,
let myself be whenever I want? I would never stop that's what I was going to ask you to call you are ready to do and that usually the reflection for how much deprivation there's been in your life there's a permission paradox: it happens when you really now you can have the Orioles or whatever it is for the first time you get to really are I really want them, them now among and enjoy them and why not to eat a quantities feel good in my body. You know it changes every thing it's one of my most favorite things to observe over and over again- and I have to tell you I ain t this part- There's a lot of research behind the foundation of intuitive eating. It was research inspire, but now it's evidence based now are was actually based on a lot of research around kids, where they show this phenomenon that, if you forbid a kid from having a food, that is the food that they obsess about. That they end up. Sneaking that's the kid who at the birthday party, is going nuts over the cake in the candy, not the presence and seven it in there in their pockets. You know
we see that same phenomenon in adult. So as an example with someone's going to make this complex but easier same time someone someone's dieting not getting enough to eat, and now they have forbidden foods around the can't eat this candied that, if something happens, they can't stand. Italy a Box of Orioles. And in their mind nothing explain that except oh my gosh, it must be addiction and it's like no. This is a combination of biology when you're not getting enough to eat. Your brain is not crazy. Hale. I have never met a patient who set Evan you gotta, who, with his counting, I can't stop getting it right, because our brain needs carbs its primary its. It is the preferred energy source, but because say that the experience is real. Nothing can explain this, this drive in the intensity and they were just that primal hunger, but when you get to a point that you're ready to allow these foods in person to the nurse the body consistently and then allow these foods in itch Is it so? A few months ago, on my I'd just recently debated a scientist, I love doing rounds on an addiction. Food addiction
so called action and to get ready for it. Besides having research, I thought you know in my sperience I've had a lot of patience believe they were addicted to food and with time they realize they weren't. So I posted on Instagram differ. Believe you addicted to food in them, realise you weren't, oh my god. The stories that came in the stories that came in to me is an example of the problem. We start labeling thinks calling things when the researchers and there to support at not kissing cousins, labeling, something simple, yes, yeah, yeah we're like that change topics Lebanon, that not yet with a similar idea, provided it creates a barrier and creates fear and when you have fear round eating, guess what you're not gonna want to trust. You yeah and I want you to trust that digressions really really long ones are totally welcome here. So ok, don't worry about it. I saw just go with what you're on right now cuz. It's really, and it's very, very interesting to me personally. One thing I would just want to say is you've basically help my wife win an argument. Many proud
in the course of this, but one in particular pertains retains to our son. I don't know that I've. Actually we we really argued about this cuz I've. Just let her go with it, but her view is around desert stuff. Just don't be weird about it. Just let him have you know, just took it to a to the point of you know you don't want to be just give him deserve for every meal, but if he's you know asking for something and it makes sense, let him have it and it's a country Our sons, not that's crazy about sugar, say so. That's what I'm talkin about so is really not Halloween. We came home. He spent the holly
organizing the candy into different groups, as you like the colors, or that the kind of candy was didn't want to eat any of it see. Oh my gosh, and yet, if you wise, wife hadn't been in nothing in that direction, I would have been crazy about or he would have been crazy. I would have made him crazy because my parents minutes my I'd want to get out of my parents and my parents. I love my parent yeah there. They, my dad, used to say it's really nice thing to me and my brother before we're going to bed at night. He say who take nobody's perfect, but yours close Is it possible for my team and I feel that way about them as parents? Some girl is no such thing as perfect parents. My parents were wonderful parents and yet on this one I think they because their positions and we're trying to make us healthy out of this incredibly positive, loving impulse, yeah limited our sugar and take in that has now realizing
made me pretty crazy Bush well, and let me also just validate what you're saying I've never never met apparent yet had it won't be doing the best for the just. So what we say now, like a k, you're learning something different in. Maybe you can do something, so I've got to tell you the story that reinforces what you're saying that so visual. I got a call from apparent about for seven year old, daughter over holiday. We had a, dress on chocolate, fingerprints, all over her dress and she said honey. Did you eat the chocolate? however, it was, and she said, no mommy, no mommy and the evidence was ever were everywhere and she said you know The first hand to her knowledge or daughters, outright lied to her and she made her wonder what am I doing here? Am I making a mistake that my daughter needs to lie to me so she came and saw me a long story short well meaning, but they had rigid rules, absolutely no candy. So the only time this kid got candy with parties, it was like a party kind of thing and the visual that white dress with a chocolate. So I gave you similar advice? What I'm suggesting two years likely like liberalize the food? We don't? We don't have to strip dessert for dinner, but you know we don't make it a big deal. Either food it becomes Switzerland, its niche
don't put energy into it and long story short changed the whole behold dynamic. My wife is done a really good for her good for her. So let's get back to the thing you said before, that perfectly described my mentality, which is so major step. As you know, on sugar, I went through this long phase. Where
I would just danger to the point where I would feel awful and when I say awful Otto mean awful just awful in the moment. I would feel awful the entire next day. Oh yeah yeah. That's how much I was ok and I have an addictive personality in pay, and so what I decided to do a couple years ago was I was it was yet another day, whereas texting back and forth. My wife's saying I feel awful today and I I just I just decided you know what I would leave it alone. I can't I'm having trouble with moderation, but am reasonably good at abstinence, so now I've for the last couple of years, I've gone through the world of with a just policy. As you know, you can make me of. As my friend Gretchen Reuben says, you can make me a birthday cake, but
can eat and it's been reasonably successful in that I haven't had a day where I felt awful, because aid so much too many Orioles than before, but now sitting here with you. Maybe I'll have to tweak that success story and the reason why bring all this up, as you said before a lot of people say to you, If you allow me to have that one oreo I'll, never stop yeah! That's my mentality answer given everything I just said: how would I? How would you suggest I proceed so glad you're asking I get this question a lot. the first of all. I want to make sure that you're getting enough to eat, because the truth is that this aid is to create a day on deadlines, pulled into meeting. You worked out and you find it I'm. Having dinner at eight o clock and lets say launch was an eleven thither at nine hours without eating. If you decide to make peace with sugar right then, and there you can eat a worth. That's not gonna feel good said. make sure your bodies, nourished and that when you have whatever it is it that sweet that you have it at a time when you can pay one hundred percent attention to an
the earlier where's your mind go when you're eating. I want your mind to be on the left for your mind to be on the process of eating note. What comes up even before you'd? Do it fears exe movement, and it may be being judging the fact that you excited. Oh, my god, it's all around me. I was so excited its common by the way, really common and then and even just noticing, as your unwrapping, the candy, the sound of the candy as you put low? Oh, my god. I wish I had it here with you, but like a junior Mansour, my favorite ones, to do a food experience with because you would say you smell it and when you smell Junior man's, yes, you smell meant is now chocolate. You smell hints of vanilla than you put it in your mouth and don't you Take a bite in notice. What happens if the taste, and the texture, then take one bite without showing that hard to do. We say pretend I'm gonna get good kindergarten. Teacher dont go ahead of me, and then, finally, when you feel comfortable in two What is the taste noticed the texture and then
after you finish swallowing noticed the remnant. So actually do this in my office mindfully. Rather it is actually the first lesson in my fullest based stress reductions, the reason I raise any idea months on much more fun. Much more. Funds are using it people bringing their foods, and I tell you I've at this way, but it is a joy to do this. Work to watch people's minds get blown. Oh, my god. I had somebody used to bend uncanny corn pounds and pay. Jerry Holiday when it becomes thanksgiving around homing. Add she brought the man. We did this thing. She tasted think she'd, never tasted before because It was always urgent hurrying. Do this now before no one's looking hurry. Let's do it fast, don't taste and then feeling like what you are talking about is feeling awful afterwards and part of that awful is now the physicality from the eating, but the emotional labeling, so it becomes and mash. This is with his equals. Now you know it's weird separated out because
all along azure eating and when you finish, do I like how I feel you dont? Have you know you can stop any time you want to hear. So I suspect that what I am about to say, as I suspect, speaking for many people, the audience witches wow. You are really forcing me to read Think my relationship with food yeah yeah, I'm still in this position of wondering. How am I gonna do this tonight at dinner, with my wife and child for the first time in a couple of years, say: ok, I'll, have a little dessert, yeah how's, that gonna go even if I've been above a bag of food over there that I'll, probably eat between interviews today, so I will be. I will be nourished by the time dinner rose around, and yet I have this fear that I can't go crazy. So then that fears really comments are never one. I'm glad you're challenging you're. Thinking on this, I love that you found your mother and I am glad that you get your revealing that it's good but I'd. Why did you at a time that you shall ready
do it I see so like, for example, I really noticed I wouldn't jet lag different last couple of days on a bunch of sort of like kind of mindless eating fatigue is one worth mine states that can leaves that, so you wouldn't. You would want me to feel physically and mentally strong in the place. Where I sit a good play, you get you get to decide that. So let me can I alone, but a research behind this. It might help with the fear factor. So there's a couple of drivers that that that will that we created this principle. One of them has to do with habituation research, habituation, has to do with novelty that when something is it's very exciting when the best, ever her recent habituation research. You described falling in love, you falling in love and for the first time you hear that person say I love you and it's magical and its awesome you're. On top of the world. Ten years later, you're married recommend a relationship that same person says. I love you and it's nice, but it doesn't is at the same level of of joy,
new car, when you get a new computer and knew anything, so that's what habituation is novelty wears off like left over. Is this really the left over principle after I used to do some cookbooks and I'll never forget making? Cakes in all my family. Kick a keg that, by the end of that chapter I can give a kick away because they knew they could have it so what happens is most someone's been dieting? We're have rigid rules like no sugar. What happens is stay scary and food stays exciting? You now you haven't had habituation of, you ve had the extremes you haven't had the middle. So what we know from the situation fact, if you want, Do this systematically action have a systematic approach. We would choose one food, the same flavour. Same brands of, for example, those ice cream. Maybe it's it's! It's Haagen, thus ice cream, but but you dont, varied up with hail top is a very different, even if its vanilla, you know, and because no with novelty to introduce new flavors it'll take a little longer. You can do it that way. If you want to, you can do it anyway, you want to, but when someone's really really scared I'll say you know, let's create the optimal situate, what do you remember when we need to feel safe? What optimal? For you? Where do you want
do this. I've had some patients that I don't want to do it at my home. I don't want to have a bag of candy or big gallon ice cream during my name, can I go out somewhere like absolutely issue can, and so it's about building ends up happening. You don't have to eat through the alphabet of sugar to get this, but once you start having us of experiences. Offices like you know that in its is just a bit thing to it, over an organ like what you see in your son could be in you as well, but this man, how much energy into much rigidity around it. In my opinion, which is why keeps an exciting and therefore with excitement comes fear, so you would recommend that the abstinence model that I've been bringing to sugar is probably not the wisest approach. I would yeah that's what I would say and so that what you're recommending a from here, you correctly is pick one super exciting, the most exciting kind of dessert or any kind. you do the safest dessert. Maybe something boring like for me, boring for my taste. Buds be vanilla way for cookies, its dessert for some people by like now. I'd rather have a real cook
I agree with that yeah. But if, if we're trying to go for habituation share, we pick the most exciting it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. You Jesse you using keep repeating it so the dessert of the week, my might be a certain what cookie or ice argument whenever that happens to be, and then do with it just eat it slowly. Yeah yeah, where you described with junior mints, yeah and- and I would certainly recommend not before meal, but to do some time after may also hungers not driving it. It's all about the taste, experience of it and overcome I'm your saying. Habituation its end and then can walk into a holiday party with a cornucopia of pastries and not not a big deal that they take. Oh my god. What did you think it so funny in the early days, people dont know what to do for a living there like. How can you do that? How can only two bites and I'm full and there is no magic? That's that's what
situation. Is that when you watch it in your kids you're seeing that play play out over and over and over again, can you mountaineers? How long does this habituation taken? Does it have to do? I have to do it systematically by from narrow. If I do vanilla wafers level, it will scale everything else, no age, it's really different for everybody. I don't have a metric on that. I have some people that prefer to list every single food, their terrified of eating increase. Hierarchy. Sometimes they start at the safest food what they feel safe to them, and then they will What's really sad. Now I have people are afraid. Carbohydrates is like no, not the carbohydrates, your brain needs them and so we're starting with basic food like like bread and those kinds of thanks a cobra hydrogen is a big category. As I understand it, s big difference between rice and wonder, bread, yeah yeah. They doesn't mean it's bad wanderer, yeah yeah, an array of economic interests. Are you Betty San? I look at the fray
you know that the french bread, for example. Yes, that's that's white flour, man, they have won the lowest rates of heart disease in the world and, yes, we can argue that they have other health enhancing behave as if they do, but it's in a one food is not going to make or break you. One foods luckily and unless you have again allergy too, like peanuts, it's it's not gonna. Do you ends or I've done this around bread to which is made it too exciting, handed illicit and therefore it so she were exciting when I start eating it. All of those. I colleges right, and then it because in your mind I'm not gonna do this again. This is an exception, cause I'm jet lag, then it's more excited, and now yet the vines gonna come in because its opportunistic eating- I'm never have my god. This bread is that special here in San Francisco, oh my god, so you can eat more quantity into that derives and in Europe. The Good NEWS they see. I need to have rules around my eating. This doesn't work so again. What you would recommend is habituation press yeah, we're when you feel ready, not win, win
so ready, not when I say you're ready when you feel ready to do this, you know to start to start adding sweets back in and and same with bread yeah, and would you do these concurrently or separately whatever? so ready to do so. For example, I've learned learned to get of the way of my patients. I've had patients come in ready to do things other than recommended and they do beautifully. You know so I have I've had something since that go out and buy every single food. They think they can't have and put it in their pantry. That would fi alot of my other patients, but if they're ready to do that, I'm not gonna stop them. That feels like they want to do that and they're ready. Ok, let's do it. I have other patients that are terrified, as we start really slow, and that's ok too, though, by a tiny, tiny cupcake like it sprinkles or Susie, kicks one of those places, the many ones in on it, not that the regular says. That's ok and you get to see what happens and he knew what have I done. If I should tell us what Mattel you The thing that cracks me up it happens,
We say one out of four times: someone has a food, they have this push pole relationship with, they finally give permission to eat and then the men they don't like it. Really is another taste bad, but we were removed all the excitement and there is no taste in it. You know ever I have someone who was in the chocolate kisses and a significant aid chocolate I settle for you know. Kit, does nothing wrong with kiss the one, a gopher godiva some miles, and this is what a great height here and then when they had the kisses didn't like him at all that I'm gonna like getting a crayon Tipp right. You know so in its is it's a surprise. you or I had someone who was a french riot haulage and she made peace with french rising discovered.
pass, you would only have them wimp and lit and limping offer her kids plates or husbands plate, sneak him in lots and lots that way and what happened to her. She was no longer willing to eat him. That way should only Manuel. So this is not the principle of intimidating aim for satisfaction. You know ultimately, is not satisfying to over eight and its autonomy, not satisfying to under eight and what I love about this principles. Only you can answer that. What I feel like to you, what would a satisfying? What would satisfy meal feel like and tastes like, and how do you want to feel afterwards? You, after those cushions did, I know we all have to answer them ghettos, but how do we enter those question? Well, so, first of all, for it first the a question I've had patient say I have no idea and crying because I ve been on so many diets falling, but everyone told them what to do that, because I will often ask: what's your favorite food middle, no one's ever asked me that question I like to see what would you have any in eating at all, so looking at what that might be,
and sometimes they dont knows we start doing. Experiments are sometimes have a history like when they were kid. Oh, my god, I used to love eating. You know Macrobian she's abruptly or somethin like whenever, like whenever it happens, to be and then ultimately, so here's a classic. I used to hear diets like fashion come in, they go. The company is a decent people like big ol, salads, no croutons hold this the skin off the chicken and iced tea for lunch, and I had a patient Oh, that was really good, and I said what was it satisfying always really good so how long has sustained you two hours as also you had a meal and it only lasted for two hours and suchlike. Its mark, a snack to me, seems like a pain. So looking at those kinds of eggs and only you have the answer to that question, and so I consider myself cannot get the tour guide. I can direct you some fun right. You know with eating, but you get to decide if you like it or not, suicide mindfulness would be incredibly used, always very, very useful, absolutely absolutely having awareness of everything and where this is key to all this year. Where are we? Where are you mean the show in
I am eating. We really slow down while we eat yeah that part of intuitive eating too yeah and you know, what's really interesting. I don't put any emphasis on slowing down because I think it's kind of contrived. I put the emphasis on the savouring aspect of eating, because that's actually interesting slowdown be mindless. Yes, you can you absolutely can cause. It went back to the question: what does your mind go when you eat if somewhere else, you are in your minds? Don't there on the eating so yeah? So looking at that, and so people vast. What do I do when I ate, and it was no tv, there's no phone. I think that's what you recommend to people to talk to start noticing. What does it tastes like another which went when when people a start. Practicing yeah would have eating your saying: don't you ever the tv yeah, it's ok to have it. Research with human values. Alertly but dont be reading your phone or or listen you upon cast and let the only distraction would be a conversation with another person other that you're just eating
yeah and I'm always careful about this. A phenomenon that we seen is that when people come from a dieting background, they invariably accidentally turning would it meaning to set of rules? You know, and so this Now, that's where I was going with as well. That's right! That's why I'm I'm I'm offering this little bump! Stop here. Dan slow down Europe better already way stop it rejecting no, no! No. This is good because it means that people are thinking the same thing, so I would say yes, it's a best practice, especially if you're new to intuitive eating. But let me let me give you an example why I think it's important and make my patients laugh at this, and I love this is when I used to rid the Wall Street Journal. So at the very bottom on the front, page Sometimes they would trick me, I don't get it do it on purpose. I'd start reading a story will I'm eating breakfast and oh? No, it's a full length feature two pages that meant I had had more so
real and whenever I was eating so disconnected, and I'm so far that business hilarious, I'm a creator of this model. I know this step, but I just got disconnected so it's it happens. It's is renewed little fall used to run a foul of your own precepts years, of course, because I'm human and ass, my point: we must not pay, Sir Gozo, and actually this uses a really great example. So I dont reactor that undergo oh, my god, you bad night dietician, who you think you are as I am accountable for what I know from my own. experience. It means a populist hungry for lunch, and I don't I don't do any Henceforth, I dont do like I like to see my bodies. Gonna do naturally you know you're, really just riding we're tuning into our bodies in writing that, through the day cynically letting all of these external factors drive us include probably in saying this all along and only took me now to understand it, but that's not the way it works. It s actually you're. You actually very advanced that you understand it right now. Ok, I won't have emanated sincere when I say that its
You are actually in charge, you're the boss and attain my young adult patients love it. I say I work for you you're the expert in your body. The problem, as you have fear around your body. You have mistrust. I can help you. You know start to cultivate some of these things in the compassion that that's needed. When you you don't make make eating, I need to say mistakes. Wait! Wait when you eat no way, that's upsetting to you. You know, I'm always like what can you learn from this experience? What can you learn from this? What are the causes and conditions that this happened? Yea, don't forget right now hear that, but when it went what what happened and what might you do differently next time? You know well for examples of what would I do differently around having flown at San Francisco a couple of days ago and experience and pretty massive gentler exacerbated by having a four year old and woke up at three fifteen. We know what can I learned from that, because I can't make jet lag no longer part of my life.
a horse, and so I did a lot of sort of mindless comfort eating Howard. I incorporate that it into my going forward attitude towards yeah. So when I do it, this is like a like. It's a work with what you know to be true for you, and that is jet lag, irregular Purtier year career, that kind of travel and so the question to me as ok. This is, I call it heavy metal jacket timeframe, care that and I'm in the same way, by the way, I don't feel go when I'm travelling like that. So that means I'm adieu. My damned is to get sleep. You don't have an option with a kid you people waken up at three fifteen, but I'm in a really make an effort to have meals. If I can, rather than snacks- and I dont my preference- this is not a right or wrong my body fields, but if I can sit down and have a civilised meal as opposed to running from snack to snap snack little do a lot of that where a ladder the wine for not just now- and I do then in my office- and I have been crazy days, but I think the reason I'm not so impact it- I don't have the jet lag or other things going on. I think there's something about the active sitting and taking the time out that it does something from my mind. Besides the actual
aspects of for me that something that really really works it might mean. I'm not taking on an extra project during that time period. it's gonna, be yes, but not now our or later it's gonna be a flat out. No, he knows I look at those kinds of things. So when you're, even when I called these really vulnerable times, what foundational self care needs, do you need and that's not a bunch of blue I've. Had patients call me on like. I want to get a man, and here I wonder if I am not talking about Them- took the boring self care like sleep. You know like having downtime time for yourself time to have a meal and sometimes you can't and you're gonna be might one my best body experiences, not body awareness experience. I am driving. This is crazy day. I'm I'm fighting off a cold. I have a after this is multitasking Malta eating a cough up on one side of my mouth and I'm eating a beggar on the other as I'm trifling to work, but I wish I had a picture of this and the reason I love telling that stories and tell us the best we can do in its Emma. I was ok that didn't mean to this is instructive because your
example is instructive, and I know that's why you shared it is one can have a sense of humor as opposed to sort of an inner sort of militaristic attitude toward the mistakes that we are ultimately going to mistake made written might even be the right word. Earning expire learning. Experience is that we have on this course because, as you said earlier, we are human we are going to were eat or eat until we're uncomfortable, yet all lay your terminology and at you, your approach, would you just modeled is laugh at him? Learn from it as opposed to go into some crazy self, laceration exactly and ass, the part, the dashing. It hurts mental health. All of that- the expectations and in the rigidity and that's what I
for a lot of people if they, when they struggle with this, is sometimes have this written mindset that eating needs to be a certain way to know what the toxicity to give a lot of quarters only released into system almost guarantees you're gonna. Do it again? Well it s actually really good point if you're being stressed out about your eating decisions and then use, and then your stress eater, you just double Oda yourself up. Absolutely absolutely so. So, let's go back to your you're, the I have the time oh right of intuitive eating, we we rejected the diet mentality with honoured our hunger we're making peace with our food bore here is challenged. The food police, oh yeah, this is given and you have jumped out of order, causes a couple of other vehicle agenda. All good You know, as I do in session, to is that what is the person need? Yet this is the model, but you don't have to go in order. When you write a book, you have to go in order, but yeah so challenge the food police is working with the intercourse
The inner bully and your mind, you know, is the collective food waste that tells you how to eat and those kinds of things like so I like to Where did you rules come from what food rules do you have and where did they come from and is it I'm not even so much concerned about the rules, I'm looking more at the rigidity on them and I'm looking at what happens if you so called violate one year rules? How does as at impact you and it's interesting conversation right? There were two. My rules come from in come from random bits of well. Actually, you know I haven't nutritionist, who actually is quite compassion. Soft in his approach, even though, is a Fagin Bodybuilder. Ok, but he's pretty sort of has a sense of humor is not easy. I think very much understands the disunity of shame, but I guess yeah him or just random conversations I had with people who look really healthy,
and so then we start looking at some of the rules of say it came from a person of authority will work that information come from its really interesting when we its is deconstructing, sometimes the our own, This is like one who said that whom it up that rule you know to what end Is it serving main right now? Is it serving me or is it Two I once had a patient. I love this is. Is this Monday? Unexampled was a brilliant one and she said yeah my rules out high protein with meals and ok. What happens if you don't belong here? appointed, and I say why should go to sign on I'm not gonna be hungrier later. That's us, there was great feedback. not rigid about it. She's in touch with her body didn't work with her very long cuz. She was really in a really good place. Will proteins interesting, because that I keep it in mind in part, because it's a little bit more challenging to get protein when you're on a plant based diet- and I like the exercise and you need a certain
You know, you know how much the cultures telling user as I've learned, but you need a certain amount of protein later perform at your best. So I do try to keep that in mind. It is a guess, a rule and there are polygamy, my eye. If, if it's so efficient guideline and a preference, that's not a big deal, it's is when you look at the rigidity of it. I see now, and especially when involves restricting that's when I get really concerned gotcha that you're eating less are to that for five and respect your foremost would have done. We ve done. India sixes discover the satisfaction factor which we have done. Seven is, and I don't think we ve done this one honor your feelings without using food, yeah, and so I wonder if I want to clarify on this, it's it's normal to useful with feelings and we celebrate when we have a wedding there's gonna did you have winning kicked in golly, I don't think I had. I will hiding, shows the kinds of things that make me. Seven is a life event that we have a tradition and culture and you opt out for whatever reason dinner. When I mean I m rethinking the holes, everything I'll get back in touch with you after this last as us,
so it's about expanding you're toolbox for coping mechanisms. You know so like when you travel and your constantly exhausted in what are your coming mechanisms to deal with that with the emotional fatigue and then the physical fatigue? Looking at those kinds of things, so I use a kind of a two point. Two technique there. You know when eating is like it's beyond you that you're eating in a way that doesn't feel good to your body. Its way of with emotions, what feeling right now, that's not a hard question to ask our answer, but the one steps will every time as well. You need right now. It's related to that feeling. When you need right now, you know so if I'm bored, yeah and I'm reaching for something that I know is gonna, make me feel crappy yeah as it has in the past. Ok or actually it's not so much the thing, it's the quantity of the thing. Ok, it may be asking myself: what are you feeling and what you actually need gas face of this border yeah? What we're gonna stimulation can I haven't
and doesn't need to be food. You know I've got as I have this growing list of things. I start with a couple of foundational suggestions. I get people, then we we grow from there are some I might top to right now. People are curetting puppy videos and then was the other one law videos little baby lamas sit because it it's just something I do that's kind of engaging in. It can look at it later. Doesn't it has to be whatever is meaningful for you do know meditation? meditation there you go. Eight respect your boss. Oh, that's a big one and we can't we alluded to it a little bit it at the top, and that is this idea that you're week you cannot tell by the of someone's body with their health is and that all bodies- and I mean all- and I'm really careful when words all or never all I mean when I say all all bodies deserve dignity and respect for it, and that's a tough one for a lot of my patients. They ve one of my patients have grown up with shame around their bodies or not even per se, but that the only way that you can be successful in the world to have a certain kind of appearance. You know
you're spending all their time and mental energy around and in pain and suffering- and I do see a lot of patience with eating disorders and I think part of the reason we're seeing insiders double is because of all this appearance. stuff we got going on with our culture in part with social media and in part with diet culture. What do we do about the fact that we we, if we can stipulate, I believe, because you ve, set it to the fact that people will judge you often based on, how you look so given that many of us want to navigate to world and I'm on tv, so happy I put on a bunch of Wade. May notice may not intend to look. This is very unfair, but they do tend to be way more. Screwed me on the femur. on tv, males, yeah, but nonetheless, maybe they'll notice it maybe I'll be less successful or whatever Should I not take that into account, so we were talking about a big issue right now and has to do with weight stigma, and that's that's a problem that I want to help solve, but it's system
Yes, you know, and our own account to be really vulnerable, but here now I am the one only time as an adult than I thought about dieting was when I made my debian good morning. America was four months. Pregnant puts pardon. Rather, postponement is back in back five and if I'm ever gonna die to be now, and I thought about it, and I couldn't do it from being aligned within my values. But the point I am saying, as I felt that that that urge, because of the perception stuff and so what we need to do. This is easier said than done as we need to work pass, that you're more than what you love It's interesting right now to be seeing more diversity in media, more diversity and magazines and women's bodies and and sizes and weed, and we need that so it's? There is not an easy answer on that, but we see the harm of weight, stigma and health care where doctors are looking and there's. These have been documented medical journals. When I look at some one is as they only I just just lose weight. You'll be fine resembling, who died a few years ago in Canada, was a feeling offer went after doctored. Doktor doctrine is its lose weight. She finally saw
after that saw more than her body. Did it work she had a state for cancer and died doesn't days later so in her a bitch where she put that in their so that no one would go through the fat shaming that she had it's a really big problem in our culture. You know well, and yet it not sure really answers what we should do as individuals of Hamas, the hunt for a new job, and I want to look my best. My interview, yeah I, this is systemic problem right, can't solve that myself and yet, you'll need the job. So should I not be restricting my eating or no acts of organised double sessions at berries boot camp in order to lose the way now, I think- and I actually I have worked with people in the entertainment business where that's part of Eminem's. I got actors and ice Workin movie industry, I've been there seen that and the problem as and when I look at is what this does to you in terms of energy. all your mind now is going to on this. This diet thing you can, if you're acting, you can't even a moat properly, because your your little dull, you know, and so it's about
really connecting with what you bring the table. What you're value set is period- and I would hope, Hope Hope, where you're out in your career right now that that's what really matters for you and that, maybe you can start being part of that mess Stan Governess. Really, I'm really there's so much here. That's electrifying yeah! big one and important one to know, I'm not refer to everything yourself. Oh thank you. One thing this is particularly on my mind right now. I was just thinking about how much energy I've wasted on this, oh, you know, I will tell you. I can't tell you how many tearful sessions I've had with people around, that the amount of time spent the amount of money spent postponing of a case you're not going to an event because they want to blow their diet of this one, I'll take this money here. Lot from parents is how cranky they were and yelling at their kids in a way that wasn't a line with their parenting values. You know- and I say this guilt or shame anyone, but this too,
the light on there are consequences when the bodies not getting enough to eat our body in a week the solution that we have a hundred per cent control over. What we eat is kind of like breathing. We can't we always stuff with the breath. You can do in meditation, but you can also try. To stop breathing, but you So no the moment you stop to choose breeding. Your body will finally make you breathe your pass out and when you come it'll be arrogant, inhale the whole room and the same with eating, if used, Stop eating enough food or is restricted to a certain level there just to be a point where your body, mine, can't stand it you're going to be thinking about food more, it's in in the brain. Ask and there's gonna be a drive and when you finally eat you can inhale it's not a low polite. You know snack here, so nine exercise feel the difference. Yeah. Naturally was interesting. We have our fourth editions coming out in June to twenty twenty were actually changing. The word to movement is that of exercise, because so many people have had a lot of shaming around that in terms of the militant kind of step at the idea is that you move in a way that feels good, so have
The joy of movement you know is so so key and in front of you know my new, my athletic backroom, but I'm someone who naturally likes to move. I I ran on the boy tracked didn't have a girl's tracked him when I was at school and then copy in college and then look at trouser in the marathon. So I'm I'm someone who I like exhilarating movement, not because of what its doing to my body, but I love how it makes me feel during it and then afterwards well. Well, I have to admit that unites exercise most days, and I do like the way I feel afterwards, but I think that very often I'm doing it not because I'm enjoying it meant, but I'm doing it because I like I want to make sure that I'm healthy, and I want to make sure that- and I have some goals. Users David or unstated internally about the way I wanted to show up on my fizzy ha ha so and what what happens at least to some people I see as when, when the exercise or movement is made,
about the calories, burned or physique oriented it's easy to burn out, and then two, if someone's on some kind of weight, loss, diet and their exercising our know how to do it that that's hard to do, a common pattern I see as they stop the diet they stop working out. have a lot of shame and my answers, and I do that of robberies gonna go. If there's no gas in the tank, it's not gonna go round the trackers and your body isn't doesn't want to go and how do we up rude those? So I'm not doing that. I'm not on a diet but yea. I do all different forms of exercise and I really like the way I feel and a little bit how I look at your words here, but I shall often enjoy the doing of the thing tat. So you'd saying I should just totally orient toward exe says that I actually enjoy in the moment for the most purpose, sometimes in us giving example, maybe meditations a better example for me to use, I often don't enjoy it while I'm doing I enjoy the after a mouth of it. I enjoy the call
of my life, but sometimes the pain and the, but for me go sit on the cushion it's just that we know the main, and so that can be that we sometimes for for movement as well, but knowing that you get these other secondary benefits, I think that's fine, so far Do you, I am, I swam bunch this morning and it was a little monotonous, but so I might not have loved eighty in the moment, but I do like the way it makes me feel from turning into that There's the power exactly exact, I will say one thing of mentioned: Grace Livingston, whose one of the approaches on the show she's also helping me. I'm writing a book right now about kindness and cheese certain, partner in crime on that as a heading up a lot of the research and also Gimme feedback. As I go, she refers first yourself. book therapist all I love that really it's really go and she noticed
He had the suspicion that maybe there was a little bit of difficult energy around my approach to exercise and hat gave me suggestion to occasionally drop in the notion, while working out of gratitude? Oh, I love that I'll be working out and I notice it I'm on some big jag of well not doing enough, for this is not good enough for the day or this isn't gonna make a difference on whatever metric I want, and just to the best of my ability boom just be grateful that I have a body that functioning at this level at this age, etc, etc. So many people don't- and I find that that to be a pretty pretty close to a silver bullet. I can. I have to drop it in a bunch whom my minded, as I did. When can I buy? This is boring, hey, but you can do this thing and you know I was able to get swimming lessons that long ago, so that I can do it correctly, but grateful that either
used to do that so that anyway, I just share that it was a really good point and then I think what I'd add to that, to that it's okay, to take a day off, if you're, not feeling good not feeling it get. You know because you don't get injured. Also, that was the hardest thing I ve learned. How to do is that rested just as important as meaning, especially for going more intense activities. I just recently I M gonna tell you my aspiration is to be a ping pong player and into style. I actually have a ping pong coach and I love it and one of them this? Why beside fact I love it isn't. It would seem any injuries around at all. In a somewhat the longevity of doing this by my eldest brother and injured in so dear. Let's do the last. Ok, the latter that the tenth of your pillars here, ok, which is one that we ve mentioned, but I think it worth digging yet again, because I can hear sceptics out their asking this question in their heads over and over again honor. You help with gentle nutrition right. So neither where'd you dont be itself up over how you ate in its war, about looking at your pattern of eating overtime and the biggest kicking
When someone asked me, where can I start eating healthy Evelyn, and my answer is any time you want to, but usually are coming out of the rabbit hole of dieting, they're, making peace with food and they want to go back to the rigidity of which they had you know, and so looking at those kinds of things is looking at yeah, adding some more vegetables interior eating in those those aspects, and so one of the things like to stress, isn't The meeting is actually ten principles. You can't cherry pick em and just say it's. It's just make peace with food. If you go on it Instagram and you look at it the hashtag of intuitive eating the all. You see your pink doughnuts they because people are so excited they can eat these things. They write about? They don't write about the on your health, nutrition to that. Still apart and you get your point, you don't apologize, explain we are eating, whether it, whether its doughnuts or whether it's a salad with with Kalen tofu girl into it. It's your body, your business. You know, ok, so if, if people find themselves at the end of this conversation and in the position which I find myself right now, which is really intriguing yeah, what
next steps wouldn't get what you want to do. I want to do your programme, oh my gosh wow. So so we do have a work book. The intuitive eating workbook they could that that's one way, it's it's it's more intense in the book is a lot of questions and there to really help you get. Can I read the book, get the work but get the work for sure for sure we have a free, nine community, the intuitive bidding online community. You can follow me on on Instagram and so the way- and I say this- that most people can actually do this on their own. But what happens sometimes is day when you have a long way three of shame run your body around dieting it might you might need some help with that, and so we have trained people that that there are trained in our method, and you can check that out. So you may have somebody locally who yeah you're counselor exactly are certified intuitive eating. Counselor yeah, that's excellent, because it sounds like for just to repeat what you just said and I'm thinking, maybe even true for me that as well as exciting, as listening to a conversation like this may be or as exciting as a book in a work
Maybe you may need its and accountability partner. You know, and I gotta tell ya. Ok, I can. I just got so tight that so we have, we have over nine hundred people and the three countries train in this. I just finished training three groups of ukrainian psychologist. They wanted trained because the Moscow the Moscow psychologist got train. I think it's great, but it's it's really neat that that that there want to use this method. Do you know what I mean because imagine if every health professional that you saw your doctor, you saw your train or you say, you're nutritionists you're, getting a similar message. I think we'd be we'd, be in a better place in this world. I'm gonna. Do I'm that's awesome, enclosing user. Any point that I didn't give you a chance to make during the course of. interview my gosh. I feel guilty by not giving some answer to that question, something profound. How do you feel satisfied at the end of this meal? Oh my god, I felt us fight at the end of this conversation. I actually do, I feel, heard and understood which is actually
really a really great feeling. The fact it is opened up your mind to some possibilities is throwing to me. I can guarantee you. I got more out of this. The Newton, oh well, gay. Thank you so much. I think you big huge hearty thanks to and she's in my life on the regular. So she knows how grateful I am as I've made clear that conversation had a huge impact on me and I continue to talk to have one all the time. as you heard, one of the foundations of Evelyn's approach is self compassion. Instead of the self loathing and social comparison that fuels the diet culture to dive, the skill of self compassion. I want to remind you to join the new year's meditation challenge, which I mentioned at the top of the show in which would help you take all of that wisdom and put it into practice on a daily basis, plus we think challenges. We know challenge really help people boot up resuscitate or reinvigorate their meditation habit
college starts on Monday January. Fourth download the app today and get ready big thanks as always to the team worked so hard to make. This show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer, Dj Cashmeres, our producer jewels. Dodson is our eighty are sound. Designer is met point of ultraviolet Audio Maria. or tell us our production coordinator we get in we're missing amount of insight and input from our Tpa colleagues such as, in point eight Toby been Reuben ITALY's Levin and, of course, as always, big. Thank you. My ABC News, comrades, rang Kessler, Josh Co. Him we'll see you all on Friday for a holiday bonus. I.
Transcript generated on 2020-12-23.