« The Babylon Bee

Episode 21: Horror Movie Harvest Episode (That Coincidentally Falls On October 31st)

2019-10-31 | 🔗

In the twenty-first episode of The Babylon Bee podcast, editor-in-chief Kyle Mann and creative director Ethan Nicolle are joined by Brian Godawa to talk about horror movies. Are they evil? Does God hate horror? Brian, often called “The Horror Apologist,” weighs in. While some may think the timing is a little strange—it being the Devil’s holiday and all—rest assured this is our fall harvest episode that only happens to fall on the same day as pagan-pumpkin-demon day.


Brian Godawa is an award-winning Hollywood screenwriter (To End All Wars), a movie and culture blogger specializing in God, Movies, and Worldviews  (www.Godawa.com), author of a textbook, Hollywood Worldviews: Watching Films with Wisdom and Discernment as well as an Amazon best-selling author of Biblical fiction (Chronicles of the Nephilim/Chronicles of the Apocalypse). Follow Brian on Twitter


Movies/Horror genres discussed


The Rules of Horror


The Wicker Man



28 Days Later franchise

Shaun of the Dead

The Walking Dead



The Addiction

I am Legend



Serial killers (the modern vampires)


Brian Godawa’s Short Film Cruel Logic 



Subscriber-Only Portion



Deliver Us From Evil

The Exorcism Of Emily Rose

The Exorcist

The Blair Witch Project



The Last Exorcism


Also Mentioned: Third Eagle Of The Apocalypse Doom And Gloom 

Become a paid subscriber at https://babylonbee.com/plans

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
We're free news, one a large hanging out with on the day as he's here now frank. It, though, he's back from the dead each channel, which quickly rippers John Mcarthur Plan, and so is there and the like. Well, I found assisting wicked people you're funny I was trying to find bring it out. Thing is some very bring it out and I'm a day if I'm days, I keep thinking that old song and you get the hang eighties yeah. Then, if you get the hang of bring it always always talking about this, I am probably says world views on yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, transcendence, that so many that that's my dream and send it to yes transcendence. So I'm the straight man here today sorrow. So this is all I'm street straight for
This is our autumn harvest episode. Happens to land on or near October. 31St. So imagine lots of orange decorations, pumpkins, but about faces. Every church I've ever been to his head. A harvest festival is best and or a Hallelujah festival on October 31st. Because they don't celebrate Halloween. Yes, that's bad, so we're just going to talk about horror movies coincident Lee very close to Halloween. Only that, because everyone knows horror, movies are evil dragon amen in Spanish, for christian reviews? This episode's main thrust will be how evil horror movies are right. Now go down the list, I'm like watching horror movies in October, like that lead up to yes come across. I don't always like you, get a yeah watch, you know if you want to watch die hard during Christmas season
classic Christmas movies like die, hard, yeah, yeah and then yeah October. You want to watch the perfect the perfect setup right now with midsummer, just just coming out on dvd and watch. That's the movie. You want to watch this, What's a dvd is in like yeah. I was sorry I kept saying I'm going to go, see him in summer. Is that is that? Would you know you don't do that we should come off, so we say ahead of time. Are we recommending this movie it's in uh, or at least with winding way in a qualified away. I found a different lots of I found it very disturbing heads being would not I will now watch again: yeah COLT or g yeah. So just if you're into that but but a very profound moral. I'm curious to hear him say because I just watched it last night for research purposes. For today so I want you to tell us why? Don't you defend your watching this in full movie?
someone with someone horned in general first got to set the is okay, sir, sit down some things and what what's swore? What's the point of horror you know and in a lot of people, I think, of a misunderstanding of it. A lot of people just see, as it solid asked, just exploitation of Gore and killing people, and you know that oh and another one is you know now that just feeds on fear- and you know particularly religious or Christians would say you know our God is not a kind of fear and so you're promoting fear and then how they talk about yeah, yeah yeah. That's our fundamental stock right, like a tiny wc fields, yeah, it's more movies to watch horror. But seriously because I to keep bringing us back to seriousness. So you know that that's the negative reaction from conservatives and religious people, people christian stuff, like that, you know, but I think that if if you look at the history of horror, you look at Horan context of.
Of culture, and you know, like I say, the history and what it does. I think this some very profound, good elements to it. I think one of the purposes you know in fact I've wrote now. Here's my shame, active self promotions at what time are we at four minutes in early fairly, is around here yeah yeah. So one of my great chapters is God loves, horror and actually an article I on go. My website find a free version of the article somewhere or it's in my book Which is God against the gods- and I write a whole chapter that- and I explain my arguments for why God loves horror, in just in general, like not biblical, that's a whole nother area to address, but I think the the little elements of horror are number one. It It reinforces and affirms original sin or firms of the sinfulness and evil of mankind. Now that doesn't set
is a very profound does it, but it really is. If you consider, when a postmodern world or secular world again, nine is all that may is basically evil. They say man is basically good. Well, then, what horror does is when you watch a horror film, you are reinforcing that human nature is basically evil is real right now this whole relativism about one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and that's the world we live in, and so you can judge another culture. All that stuff is just destroyed when you watch horror, because it's clear that this is evil and this evil son of a b has to die right, and so and that's like I say, that's a sort of a simple approach, but I think that it's profound in needed, 'cause SS, in today's world. You know like I say it reinforces that evil is a real thing and it must be fought to the death that's one element. Secondly, I think is it exposes the seriousness of sin and consequences and There's lots of examples of this, but
like in horror movies, it's really common. Actors. Who'd died almost always committed sin right, not no, not always bring a lot of them. Do it in fact, as matter of fact, you go back to the old, slash or ones with the kids Friday. And all that stuff they go to sleep or sleep around or whatever. Actually it's always the promiscuous kids who get killed in the virgin, always lived right now. We know scream as a series when that came, that turned it upside down and for a few years after that everyone was doing the opposite of the typical, but I tell you what I think a lot of them have come back to that, it's actually quite actually hammer ality. I have the clip from screen. Where do you hear this? here's, the rules. There are certain rules that one must abide by order to successfully survive a forum, for instance, number one.
You can never have sex yeah, okay, number two! You can never drink do drugs, it's an extension of number one and number three. Never ever ever under any circumstances, say I'll, be right back. She won't be back and get another beer. You want one yeah sure Absolutely I mean, and that's you know like I say for a while there it turned out those upside down, but now that the traditional moral Actually, traditional moral compass behind a lot of those now I'm not going to say that justifies the that, there's a lot of them that do exploit sexuality and sin. In other words, some of them become. You know
titillating scenes of kids having sex before they come up with creative ways of killing them, yeah. Okay, and and look I admit that that takes it too far, and so this is not a black and white world and there's a lot of debates, but I can argue for specific movies being valuable in that level. But in in that world of exposing Cineon consequences. This is this is more common than you realize, alot. If you look closely at a lot of horror movies You'll see this pattern. Even if it's not killing the kids it you know it's wrestling with your own sin and overcoming like flatliners, okay, flatliners, Flatlinerz kind of horror film, where the, where the key experimenting with near death experiences and coming back and then basically they start getting haunted by these apparitions and you know trying to kill destroy them and the way that they have to overcome is a they realize if to face their own, their own.
Flaws and sins an evil in who they are and change in repent. Now, of course, I'm referring to the original flat just who would want to watch the new one? the remix are always better than the originally, I always the case Right but never seen either But but I don't know what he's talking, but it's really phenomena. So you get these kids and you know they they they they have these near death experiences and then they come I can it's like, oh wow. I saw this and that, but then what happens is all these like ghost, like people are from their path or whatever start thing them and then they start beating them up one. Kid was a bully, and so he gets bullied by the kid that he believed in they turn out to be these like spiritual realities that are haunting them and the kids they realize they have to actually go and undo the wrong they did like going apologized apologize to them to the mother of the kid from the past or whatever you know, and doing so that's how they free themselves from that haunting evil. That's going after
another. One example of this is my favorite movie, which is my personal favorite horror. Film of all time is the addiction and This movie embodies this notion of using The horror medium is a metaphor for sin and consequences the cat literally the calvinistic concept, but it's Justinian? Actually, the Augustine in concept that we are all have a full nature and that, that sinful nature affects everything of who we are and therefore we justify the evil we do use, rationality in philosophy and center. The story. This New York, Nyu student, played by Lily, know yeah. I should notice my anyway Bill Murray, no, well whatever. So this is New York, Nyu student, who
goes and studies philosophy and she encounters a vampire who bites are her in the premises. You know you heard that earlier in the clip, tell me to go away what what's going on there? Well, basically, you the art is challenging the individual human to stand up to them and they don't 'cause, they're, always full of fear, and when they get bit, they become a vampire as well, of course, so and what this woman does is. She goes and and gets her victims a philosophy student, have this big climactic event where they invite a bunch of professors over and they feast on them right and the whole. Point of the movie. Is that she's right, she's she's talking to these people who she's about to eat or you drink their blood and she's like you know, your philosophy justifies this and she calls for your box. She quotes. You know All the famous philosophers of history saying: look you to his own, your scientism, your materialism none of it has any moral value and what time
going to just an expression of what your own philosophy says it and justifies, and so it's this universe and at the end of the movie near the end of vampire quotes Rc Sproul, which is very interesting, yeah he said. She said something like you know: Rc Sproul says we don't wear sinners? Because we sin we send as we're sinners, and that's the human nature thing right and it's a very clear christian metaphor in the movie. Now it's not always like that in vampire movies, but the the origin of it with Dracula going all the way back to Dracula the or of vampirism has always been an expression of this notion of the blood as an expression of human and the blood lust we have for evil and for controlling others or what have you you know, and I Thirty days of night was another more recent great example of that very metaphor, and so the addiction,
our it's it. You know in it made like one hundred thousand dollars so like not a lot it's not recommended for a lot of people. It's very artsy, but Christopher Walken shows up as the head vampire and he's awesome so anyway. That's my example of one of my favourites, but thirty days of night is also a powerful one, because the whole theme the blood as life and also as the vampires suck off that life from the humans there's a in that movie, where I think we do have that clip You know, I don't have it cued up, though it's too short and you okay, but there's this moment where these vampires their godless beings an they face down this, these people in the people, God help us and they look around see. There's, no God and then they eat him right and vampires in that movie are like literally atheists. They are the villains in there, atheists get it in movie the hero has to like Christ. He kind of has to sacrifice himself get bit so that he can fight the vet,
president dies protecting everybody that kind of thing, and so it's like a heist story using the vampire myth. So there's a powerful way. Of reinforcing these traditional. I would even judeo Christian worldview out there it is worldviews the only took five minutes. All the atheists, the nine or vampires yeah and I got all these atheist bite marks all over me. Yeah I wake up in the morning, like my gosh He said. Well, yeah. I thought it was a little on the nose in that movie when they were wearing like the fedoras. They had the neckbeards, all the vampires They were carrying around copies of the God, delusion yeah right. It was just too much yeah the doctrines, the Lord vampire sound the notes. Well, you know the modern day version of the van, higher or really yeah, I would say vampire, but more general park, a sparkling. Yeah, that's true! That's true twilight, twilight, twilight.
I like twice that ruining the did. You say you right right. I know I'm not supposed to wait. I'm like well my gosh and this ticket that would isolate that clip yeah. I like I like I did say I loved it. I'd like particularly the second one was a strong abstinence message of sure, is very abstinence for teens talking we're talking Hollywood, and it's got this and the whole point in that story. In that whole relationship he's the vampire she- human and he doesn't want to bite her 'cause. He doesn't want to you know whatever She doesn't want her to experience the misery that he's experience of being this eternal life, vampire, whatever they try to keep it separate and It comes out in them also as teens struggle, the sexuality 'cause of the sexuality is going to lead them down that path. So he holds back from and he's holding holding back his his you know animal nature. Whatever you call it right, yeah blood. Second, but it's like, but it's a very powerful metaphor for abstinence and I was shocked.
I'm sorry in Hollywood laughing at you. I promise it would he laughing at? Are you team team, Edward or team, Jacob Jt Jacob? really get easy because he's earthly thing- and I just don't like I don't like metro sexual yeah- that's right. I did like about a metrosexual vampires book which vampire could be metrosexual and Jacob had the PICS yep x but earthy wolf and you know it's like it- was written by a Mormon I'm sorry! It was a written by a member of the calendar. Yes, he's only morally night is a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints, and that's. Why you're going to get that ass? and how it would move Minnesota. So I think the anyway fifty shades of grey 'cause. That's like fan fiction of that right. So they're, like we just need a bunch of Yeah! That's right! That's right! Yeah! The like Non Mormon version yeah take all the Mormonism. I just get crazy. I don't know I didn't take it.
This. I am Legend one with Burwell Smith. Right, I mean those are kind of like with crazies future vampires yeah over the vampire Giambi's. I don't know, combination, but a great movie. I loved it that whole movie was another Christ story. We're his blood in his blood he's the one guy that that won't you know, turn into one of those vampire monsters or after my buddies last one alive at the thing, and so he is through his blood is how they can save other. And again he ends up having to sacrifice himself in some way to save people and the life in his blood and the sacrifice of his blood leads to the freedom of people, and you know it's just it's up. I think it's. It's powerful and its moral
again also the qualification for the you know, Christians in the religious folk watching it doesn't mean all of it is legitimate and uhhuh, and you know there's obviously a lot of vampire movies. You know you can find out like I I I'm I like more the mainstream ones, because they're they're more restrained, but if you go into the genre the horror genre, you know, we've got the gross movies and stuff vampires every sexual. Of course, in and at all, about the sexuality and and while it's the metaphor for that promiscuity is bad. You know when Dracula came out. There's a lot about diseases and stuff that they were struggling with in society as well, sexual diseases, but of course in some of these movies yeah they'll exploit it just have sexuality as part of the exploitation of I think we need more vampire movies with Keanu Reeves, which ones he was in
Phil and Teds. Vampire journey by are excellent, vampire adventure he was in using he was in Dracula. He was in Bram, Stoker's drag was only he was like the young guy. That goes and forgot that. It wasn't Van Helsing. That was anti. Let's see Jonathan Harker, I don't, He was like he was the guy. That goes and gets trapped there and Well, ok! So, where I was going down Pat before I was here, yeah yeah No, no! No! No! We're on the side trail about Keanu, Reeves, yeah right we've got to follow this to its long. He was glad I like and Constantine okay. We kill demons and vampires, so you can go back to the path. I recommend it because yeah. It's amazing also. I want to say something here to
Where is the one place where you can really pull in the religious, imagery and symbolism? You can hear the other black and white about exactly and it's like Christ that can destroy them. We'll talk about the members and stuff later quickly connect the dots through and haven't really thought down this road before, like okay, like, why is black and white evil white? Is that point to God? And that seems really basic, if you think about that a lot, but maybe some our listeners never really thought about that. That's a very good, and that's the point that Cs Lewis made in his conversion right, like he thought about He realizes all this injustice in the world, and that was where his Christianity right. Yet, as you realize that only point to the idea that real justice exists, yes, it has to exist outside of him. So the more ingested, the the more evil things are, the more points to a perfect good, a perfect, something that we long for. That's not really we're looking for, and yet we don't We may not have a physical evidence that it's there, but the absence of it tells us that much
yes and there's also the aspect of well. If you believe that there's apps, Evil, which is what horror movies really show right, then there has to be absolute good. Or it's absurd right and a lot of horror movies actually do consciously do this. One movie that does it is devil by M night Shyamalan. I think I think Shyamalan produced produced it but and the very point is they've even put it up in the very beginning. The movies, like you know the grandmother, told me that you know. I know there's a god because there's a devil, and so, if you face this real supernatural spiritual evil, then there has to be a supernatural, good or or you not being logical right and so a lot of movies. Actually that as an element, and I and in the and is that look if if the world is relative and of yes, we are dominated by relativism, moral relativism as well as you, factual relativism, but moral Let's is obviously very break good kinda, a lot of secular people. They don't like the idea of being told,
sexual lives are wrong or what have you, but the and so the justified. By making Morality, relative and we've got a culture, that's of course driven by that. Well, here's! The problem is that Then, if you believe that, then you can't say things like Hitler, evil or genocide is evil, because it's really just Adams colliding with one of its center city, stare, yeah and so the absurdity of that link you to go. You know, you know what my phone. Feelings about genocide? Have nothing to do with the reality You know the remaining term for it personally, yes, exactly! No, it isn't really into it or you know the universal accepted. You know you use universal, except in arms like okay. Rachel was Hitler living his truth, yeah, yeah, exact exactly. You know you do you Hitler, but race. Racism is the absolute evil that no one can. No one can say is just oh, that's just relative. Imagine a culture where it be ok to be racist. And so okay,
a few weeks as long as it's going to white people right yeah, that's true!. But if so, if you can acknowledge that, there's something that's truly evil not dependent upon your personal feelings. Well, then, there has to be a transient. Other is again my other keyword ascending. Can you just say that, like there you go? I talked over you. I need you to do it again, so we can isolate it, transcendence knowing way that it wasn't good enough, just saying your own hands, just normal transcendence now we're going to have transcendence up so, but can we like mark that on your yeah, so The point is that it points to a transcendent value, and so, if you're saying there's something that doesn't depend right, a wrong that doesn't depend upon my feelings will then you're just acknowledge that there are absolute standards of good and evil black and white, good and evil type of thing and so yeah. So that's what the horror does it point to that now, let's good on a new path here, if I can keep this is this: the Keanu Reeves PATH now now
Of course, we still have vampires and zombies, but there's a butt. Their origins, are by the way, there's Look if you want to look about the history and the influence of horror. Called monsters from the ed. I can't remember the guys name but it was Brian Gadaba yeah. Unfortunately, I don't look for quicker. You hit somebody elses book. I did ok you're running right like very crazy. I think so. Anyway, he describes how a lot of the origins of modern horror is in victorian worldview, and that's actually an by modern day people, but the truth is is victorian. You know or was the this, this rejection of revulsion of evil from the propriety, the judeo Christian Heritage, now obviously there's abuse is but so But the point is: is that Frankenstein Dracula stuff? You know not know? Ok, maybe not Frankenstein, but a lot of it had origins and
or at least as a supernatural edge to it right or or just like, I say, transcended edge right or something that it's it's fictional. We know it doesn't exist. But it's a metaphor. Well, the and a version of the vampire, I would argue, is the serial killer and Serial killers, which, of course, we know that the many movies of serial killers and tv series and everything one of the biggest genres in America, actually but I would argue that the serial killer is sort of like a naturalization of the vampire meaning. It's He is everything a vampire is right, but it's real, and it's really, real beings in our world, which makes it in a sense, I think it makes it come closer to us and realism. Has more more weight at times right. Look. I love fantasy. You know the people of fantasy, but.
Other times, something being more real can be a very powerful cultural influence, and I think that's Killer genre is that bringing home of the ultimate human nature is being evil. Very few of them are insane. If you, if you notice in okay movies, because you can't, if you make of insane, then usually very intelligent, right, yeah, the very intelligent, very rational and if you make them you know insane an irrational, then you have an interesting story. And you're also not going to be very realistic. So, though, here we get to some of my other favorite switch, which I'd love to talk about Dexter the series: stir, which was a serological. Yes he's very logical. He was a blood spatter analyst and in the in the police department in Florida, And but he happened to be a serial killer. He had that impulse inside of them, which is a merry naturalistic thing. It was you know he didn't know where it came from.
His father felt it is well and born this way, or this lady Gaga style exactly but he didn't sing. Lady Gaga, I don't did he in that series. Well there, anyway, so Dexter, what's so fascinating him was, but because his father was a copy. His father sought in him and taught him a moral code to try to channel that desire Tord the moral so that premise of the show was he's a serial killer who killed, other serial killers or other evil. Murdering is just misunderstood. Yes, Now there is a danger that I think you know 'cause. You know when I watched this series at first, I stopped for awhile 'cause. I thought you don't want to be rooting for a serial killer. You don't mean an looked plenty of moral arguments to be had about that. But point was: was it was still none the less? It was an attempt to struggle with this moral essence of then of who I am and who what human nature really is, and is it
in all of us and there's even one in one of those seasons. There is he locals with meeting a guy who was a prisoner in his out now. Cleaning up he became a Christian he's this black guy. In the city and stuff and Dexter befriends him and he's fascinated by him because Your knows he's like him, but this guy truly became a christian and anete and Dexter has to wrestle with that reality. Is there God, and, and should I be accountable to him? Of course he since, which I would argue was- would have been a better story, but along the serial killer, genre is also the classic seven. You know seven, I got a clip or seven women to play this clip wait. Let me set a set it up. Yeah, so seven is is of course everybody should know by now, but maybe it is turning point in these kind of movies, because it was it was true, as mainstream movie Kevin Spacey, this serial killer and he's killing people.
According to the seven deadly sins, so stop someone who was a glutton who, tells them someone who was a vein kills her and he's making this moral statement about society and They finally catch 'em. I guess that's what this scene is Brad Pitts discussing him and listen to his justification, It was a very profound, a movie that influenced me, A lot of my writing. After that point, when I saw you right and all murder. She did later yeah you enjoy, torturing those people. I won't deny my own personal desire to turning to stand against the center. We'll wait a minute. I thought all you do is kill innocent people in a sense. Is that supposed to be funny, and a beast man, a disgusting man who could barely stand up a man who saw him on the street. You pointed out to your friends so that they could join you in mocking him
hang with. You saw him. While you were eating, you wouldn't be able to finish your meal. And after him I picked the lawyer and you both must have secretly been thanking me for that one. This is a man who dedicated his life to making money by lying with every breath that he could master to keeping murderers and rapists on the streets, murders, a woman, murders, John, like a woman, so ugly on the inside that she couldn't bear to go on living if she couldn't be beautiful on the outside a drug dealer on a drug dealing and arrest. Actually- and let's not forget the disease spreading, in a world this. If you even try to say these, were innocent people and keep a straight face. That's the point.
We see a deadly sin on every street corner in every home and we tolerate we tolerate it, because it's coming it's trivial. We tolerated morning noon and night. Yeah, that was a rationalize the rationale of the villa near the end of the movie and a written for their and the serial killer. Such kind of sounds like you, right now, now, here's the thing, the guy that wrote, that is certainly no Christian and he hates Christianity but Anna This is a common thing now to is serial. Killers are often really just nuts there Christians right, because if you make him insane of course it it's not interesting and everything, but if you make him now he's got reason and he's driven by his hatred of sin and God in that a common thing. I think in a lot of serial killer story unfortunately- and in this case, though, I would argue that he come up, he it works.
Itself in a way because yeah he's this religious guy, but A lot of what he's saying is actually true Ann. In a world that is rejected. Morality and rejected God and religion. How, can you say, anything's, evil and the truth. Is that we know these things, that the weather is stinger murder or what have you? We know these things are evil, and so it confronts us with that. Rejection of morale? moral relativism and so even You know, he's this religious nut in a cell, That's what he's saying is actually true. So my point is the movie wittingly, makes an argument, for the existence of God and the truth of christian morality by show, This is what you get when you take it away when you reject it and, and so that inspired me so much so that I actually it's just that movie. There were other things that inspired me, but I wrote a short called crew logic which
another shameless act of self permission. We met through cruel logic with him out. Yes, that's right, I did not work for you on that. I wrote a script years ago and I have not been able to get it made. So it's probably going to novel soon and it's basically philosophical killer on Hollywood, Hollywood on the campus of university campus and he's killing- university professors and he's debating them before he kills them, and and that was my premise. I was driven by what, if this, what if this serial killer is, completely rational. Most of them are right and he wins a logical arguments. He can't say he's insane, but then his humans are well. If there is no God, then why is killing you wrong? and because you can't you can't disprove it right now. The premise of so I made sure it was about seven minutes, long, put the link on your PA yelling and on there and and check that out it's going to. A novel soon, so serial killers are genre that I've also really enjoyed as well. I am kind of psycho yeah. You look around
I'm scooting away from you right now: alright, let's, let's bring up something else now another object, taking control trial was going to say something: I'm I'm still waiting to hear about mid summer, our area to that the big bill that I want. I'm gonna jump back to that because I, when I brought it up like a half hour ago through me, aside, like I'm not going to help this injury. Okay, before we get to mid summer, though I want to make this point that you know a lot of Christians will will bring up things like you know this Oh, you know you're talking about gross stuff, serial killers in blood and cuts and murder and stuff, and and they'll bring up in a classic example to bring up the verse in. I think it's of Philippians, let's see if we even have it here, that's good Titan appreciated it, I think the Christians appreciate it if you'd stop putting scare quotes up
and every time you say Christians, Christians, Christians, here's the classic thing, they say Ephesians five says: do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness. Exposed. Now, I'm sorry Ephesians five says it is disgraceful to even speak of the things which are done by the sons of sin, in secret right, and it's this idea sets wrong for even speak of these things a little and show them in movies and talk about them. It's Violation of this moral principle of God, but actually, if you go back and read that verse in context it's in Ephesians five hundred and eleven through thirteen that verse that they quote it's disgraceful to even speak of these things it's in the middle of two other verses and here's what they say do not participate in the uh full deeds of darkness, but instead expose and the first after says, but all things become
visible when they are exposed by the light for everything that becomes visible, is light and that's my point is the power of horror. Again qualified, you know you've got you. You've got to be a balance here, but it's exposing and revealing the evil is what horror does That reinforces the moral truth and, at the end of the day,. I would argue, God loves horror because he uses it as a genre, so many times that it's it's ridic for example, book of Daniel right. We all know the book of Daniel and all those prophecies and they're. Clearly fictional symbolic, metaphor: they're, not real historical events, but you've got these beasts. Multiple heads and coming out. Then he couldn't talk in cucumbers and tomatoes, but yeah, that's true. Why did he do that? Daniels veggie prophecies, veggie prophecies and, of course, my as a favorite book of revelation right. Ok, no matter how you interpret it, everybody,
much acknowledges that there's a heck of a lot of symbolism in there you've got the seven headed dragon and it's I like of Satan and whatever powers. You think it is earthly Rome whatever, but it's a symbol which me it's like, a Godzilla monster right come around destroying eating people. You've got all these destructive, massive symbolic. Images that are very much like like any grand Google all horror film that you want to watch right, and my point is that God himself is using horror as a means to like I said earlier, where it's sort of it. Away from sin. It frightens you to it. It The consequences of sin and then there's one other example. If I can lower on revelation, can I just I just want to do something for Kyle here? How much for me just some for Kyle here:
Have you ever heard the song by getting third eagle there's a guy on Youtube named the third eagle of the apocalypse, and he wrote this book my screen He wrote a song called doom and gloom about how Obama is the antichrist. Now, that's all that far yet he said something about Obama lyrics here he doesn't big. Buildup is a lot of cool effects with text the song no hurry up, get to lyrics. To get to it. Two hundred and thirty goes. He's pretty theological impressionist integrate.
You guys, you got to see this guy is great. He's great. My favorite murder, this little bit fantastic, my favorite part is, he says, and Christ he's not nice. No! Nothing like I don't understand! You have him on your show. We were. We were trying to get the thirty, and many knows thirty you'll, all right we're gonna month. If that is your first is on. The third person thirty will says, are for a job alright back to serious one more thing: this me transition. I won't quite quite get the mid summer, maybe it'll end with mid summer, but this we're not going to get a mid summer until in summer we get a fair to break it. To put it in drive a fortune, yeah yeah for like forty minutes. Okay, so I'm one of the Bible passage that I love to use an example and by the way, there's tons of the stuff, and I write about it in my book. Now even Jesus he a couple of his parables 'cause. I had been accused of that
you never use violence to convey something important 'cause, it's my own. Bath should never do well on bad stuff yeah. I was reading just as parables, where people are completely murdered. He could have used any store he wanted to do and it's like master, like godfather tactics. You know it's just like what absolutely here's a for now, this is obviously a symbolic fiction God himself to the prophet Micah and so in the context, The Israelites are, not honoring, God they're falling away right there being faithless. This is during the time near the exile or something Actually, I don't remember where, but but they've been unfaithful to God and Israel, so God is is, is is attacking. Minnie, says here. Our heads of Jacob and rulers of the house of Israel is it not, for you to know justice all alright, so God saying you're not just disappointed you good in love, evil who tear off
skin from them and their flesh from their bones and who eat the flesh of my people strip off there, skin from them break their bones and chop them up. As for the pot as meat in a kettle, what is that? What it I just felt right that was very heavy metal that sounded like a lunar active, so that's three one: in a flash run but some so there's a god using zombies, literally zombies in the Bible. As a metaphor for how spiritually evil Israel become in her rejection of God and so so there's a lot more of these examples throughout the Bible. Word God uses these metaphors. These horror metaphors. Why in or
to describe the seriousness of this spiritual evil that people are engaging in again we're kind of back to that First principle of you know there really is real evil in order to be impressed with how human nature truly evil. You really have to see that so there's so you're, but you're, basically saying that Zombieland is the gospel yeah. I haven't seen the new one, but I love the, for it was great. Do you think of the using the new one? The new one was great and could I know pc nonsense, so all right fantastic! It was like it was. Maybe I know there's a new one. It's every time like me, there's a new one, yeah yeah double to yeah with all the originals and we think of everybody saying Jesus- is the best zombie yeah actually there's of really interesting. I don't mean that seriously. I know I like. I really meant anything you any joke. You know make a Brian will to take right on well, actually I wrote it down, so you know I really like. I live twice well yeah. I love to it. When I was years there is Christian made a little short movie
The name of this it's on and and it's it's a it's, this person gets bit by a vampire and they become a vampire and Christ come but it's not cheesy. It's actually kind of interesting, it's kind of cool Now we're on to were onto that zombies, which is one of my favorite genres. I used. When I was younger. We talked some zombies in a previous. We did yeah. We can do a light zombie lights on me, but here's the here's, the thing that's an example of okay. That's a lot of gory stuff and look even the good zombie stuff like I like the walking dead and twenty eight later and stuff like that, even those are excessive- and so that's definitely pushing the envelope bike knows that, but but there it's of zombie stories is to. Explore what it is that makes us human and that what that is that makes us human is the moral essence of who we are, because in all most all zombie stories. The zombies are, of course,
living dead, which means they don't have the soles or. However, you want to interpret it. They're just eating shopping monsters, so they don't. Humanity to them. So it's ok to kill them. But all these stories all in walking dead was classic for this. They all struggle with. I called the two competing values: moral values, which is the evolutionary ethic of self survival, self preservation or the judeo christian ethic of self sacrifice So in zombie stories, it's usually if you're selfish and try to protect yourself and whatever and live, and all that you end up killing other or you get killed or whatever, but that people sacrificed those cells who make other people try to protect them, those other heroes of those stories and that's what defines humanity in civilization, because think about zombies are without civilization. What makes us a society that is not devolved into the anarchic chaos of Antifa well
basically, when you treat people with humanity and you and you sacrifice yourself with them in some in some way, some are some manner. So that's where I think Twenty days later, literally the twenty eight weeks later, the story was precisely that issue where a guy protects himself instead of his wife and Russell's with that moral choice throughout the whole movie- and I will tell you where it goes, but it it's, it's really fantastic person have Shaun of the dead We don't have a I have. A clip from night of the living dead is a classic classic. Arnold will grounds on the Hon. I don't I don't know what it's going to be used to really be scared here, Johnny, you still afraid right now I mean it. Back having to get you bomber class stupid, you're ignorant.
They're, coming for you, Barbara, stop it you're, acting like a child they're coming for you, one of them now that movie still there yeah Johnny Johnny. Yes, that movie single handedly defined the genre I think for even till today, this is a guy that was a zombie in that oh really yeah, I'm still alive, How much showing the dead? It's comedy! You guys you guys like jokes shown in bed. Don't try to try to relate to us. Now is one of the big inspirations for my comedy horror that I write called Bear Mageddon Cool, which is. There's taking over the world instead of zombies, that's cute, uh no, that's cute in the Grizzly Man way. I think they're cute, but they eat me, you So so,
Shaun of the dead. What I love about that? It's hilarious, it's hilarious, but you know that movie also has a very powerful moral message in the messages these these young people, young, more young guys or whatever you playing a video in stuff. They had no lives, no passion, no purpose in life and responsibility exactly they were lifeless zombies in metaphorically speaking, and it's by facing the and so bye facing the zombies are facing with this is kind of who you are at least spiritually right and that's the whole point of that and that's what makes it so powerful and rich to me. I mean I love, you know. I love the whole chase element in yeah. You know, but but if you've got something richer about the relationships of the people and how not to become spiritual zombies if we can say that, but again, our gamer fans- probably don't like the scare quotes you put around video games. Did you get these kids plan there vga games and put up the error codes made a sound effect for their crime, yeah
estrogen. Has this always talks about how he wanted to write a story about a character who rides to find a new land? You know from England and he goes off in the ocean and he he like gets lost in the. Storm, and then he comes crashing in some shoreline, it's misty any forms, spear and like he's like sneaking through the the, see. Some strange being Discovered a new land and he's all excited about it, and he realizes just in English when he's on the shores of London again but two and then he describes his faith that he went out to find faint like find the real philosophy to find it and he's going to start going to his own way. He came back you know wielding here and you realize he's just looking at Orthodox Christianity, like you just going back to school, I think a lot of these horror people. You know but I'm not sure of the dead. I think these guys would say we're atheist. You know, I know Simon Pegg and Nick. What's his name, there Super Nick Frost. There super
yeah. They don't know that they're back on the shore of London, finding that for excellent. Thank you this. I think that happens a lot in these movies. They don't realize that they're finding pointing out absolutely will black and white evil? I thank you for because all in all my information off my defense, I haven't gotten an excellent point from Brian yeah. You gotta quit Chesterton teacher's pet, over there. Goodness gracious! No, I mean all my defense of trying to show the value of it you're right that that what are you saying, these people are intentional and most of the time I'd say no they're not, but I think That is another example of how Judeo, Hannity is the foundation appan, which our society runs. An people are using it that they know it or not, even in specially in a lot of the morals they draw from even in their stories but and specifically the genre now do you want? What do we want to save for the extra
well. Is there a few movies that about midsummer we haven't talked like? Let's do you want to put this summer in the dryer and the subscriber Is that too dirty that was very like after I've been building up to this the whole time? But I guess that's what I'm delighted. We got to talk about phone footage and put it on that and what are more, what are the most recent ones? We got it. Yeah it yeah. So so I would like to get it just just while we're still our: God is a broad idea: 'cause you've been kind of getting to it. I would love to in the overall idea. That. Is there a bad side of softening are fiction like. I know that we should be careful about the Gore about the stuff and I also wonder if, because all the like. If you read the old fairy tales, I read very old fairy tales to make it all the time they are and they don't hold back. Evil is very evil caught.
Eating eating the children getting stuff, yeah yeah, it's uh and we've. You know. Evil was the thing that they were trying to warn you against back then, but we've become we're, trying to warn against good and evil that whole idea of good and evil, so we've actually soften the edges on both. I think- and I think the Christian may have adopted this idea- that showing the darkness is bad, and so I yeah I'm curious about your take on that, I that is like is there are we headed down a bad path when word softening the edges too much on all of our fiction? That's another good point. My hand is raised, he's not calling on me, but you haven't said a good joke. Yet track extremely Jokinen like night. We're good for the day check in the in. No yeah. I would. I would agree that I, I think that's one
common complaints about a lot of christian storytelling, whether it's christian movies or what have you is like If I watch a christian movie a lot of times the it reminds me of like the 1970s television. You know bad eyes and stuff where oh yeah there's a bad guy, but but there you know, there's so much that they can't show that can't have whether it's you can't have cussing. You can have sexuality it can't it there's so many things that they, so many elements that they all add up to the point where, when you're trying to depict an evil person, you never believe it. I never believe they are evil or their villain or their campy or whatever. You know you want more. You want more nudity more round wants to do blood. He wants to do porn with christian messages. The
christian porn finding the Gus Newman. Well, you know running about what I do have a chapter in my book. Hollywood world views yeah, I know the I known for this chapter, it's the first chapter in Hollywood, Worldviews- and I talk about- sex and violence in the movies, particularly in r rated movies and stuff, because this is a very, very common thing fact. When I go and speak to Jews and Christians around the country. I always to address this thing and I'm not I'm not against it, I think it's legitimate concern. That is their concern. Too much sex and violence and and showing too much of it cetera, and so the question is well how much of this is acceptable, because at the bottom line, is the Bible deals with every sin known to man, from cannibalism, to working rape, to genocide, aright and some of it? It even details so that question? it's not the biblically
have every sin depicted in some way. But the question is to what degree and what's except a we Tatum. What's and what is more. Exposing of sin right yeah- and I I explain all that in my book- hello World- is but I've to become known as the r rated apologist you know the, but again I want to qualify it by the end of clothes on yeah, I now I certainly do not. I certainly do not recommend a lot of these movies that might be exploitative of sexuality and all this kind of stuff. I'm just arguing for the principle of we need. Be able to be more open to showing sin. In a more really, Mystic slash explicit way than what a lot of christian storytelling is because when there's my is my number one thing that I have time is, if you don't, if you don't well, I always say always wait. It was never transcendence! I to the sentence, I would say, as a guy.
No seriously, I always say if you don't accurately depict The sin that your characters being redeemed from your redemption has no has no impact. Yeah, the redemption only has as much impact as the accuracy of the sin that you're depicting there being redeemed from so, if you don't short, realistic, you don't show it within all of its horrible impact. You know and of course, no I'm not saying you have to show everything. So I'm not arguing I'm just arguing for the principle of we need to be able to deal with this or Our stories will have no impact. We have little impact cousin in fiction and I think that we were talking about this 'cause mean you both right. We all try to write trying to write fiction. What do you writer to
hey guys can I can. I join the writers room, but you have not written horror said: how would you get a Slipknot? Would you get a coffee with a couple creamers meeting shut up I'll, be right, back just shut up and jump when you right to make a point, you generally heightened things like if you're trying to make a point like for fiction, you need to kind of heightened it to kind of to make the point right, but like the Christian cultural way of doing things, is to cut off all the rough edges and soften it and bring it to make a reality that doesn't exist to people and you're. Trying to tell a within this fake reality doesn't really exist. Yeah person gets like stabbed in the they never swear, even if they it's yeah yeah, okay, Donna Demon adorning the knife that now it it even bit my leg yeah. I remember you know the was just a flesh wound. This is even the seventies when they would shoot someone they just did you shoot him and there's no blood, there's, no, nothing. They just yeah. You know it's just like. No, that's not being shot is really horrible. So do you think there I mean? Is there a difference between the Bible? That's
describing historical event accurately. I assume that you believe the Bible is true. Yeah, okay, A metaphor, a lot, so you know this is this is another argument that ignorant Christians often be optimized go ahead and make that argument, Christians again with the quotes- and he actually pointed at me when he said that rich is just by the way I am being sarcastic. I believe this is a legitimate challenge in that way, when we run into this at the Babylon Bee, will do with something that's edgy people say: oh well, you shouldn't make a joke about that for entertainment value, but for us it's not entertainment value. It's we're trying to make a point. You know so, but obviously some of our articles are just entertainment value, so some people, don't. Don't get that divider understand that balance. So so, what's that well I talk about world news and trends in the clear and clear fight too. You know. I think that the concern is as well the Bible twins talking about, since you know like the genocide of the war, whatever that's historical things, it really happened and
and so that's that's acceptable and uh, but the problem with that is- and we've already mentioned some of this already- is that that's not true yeah there is fictional, I'm sorry, there is historical. You say the Bible is fictional. Is historical, but there is a lot of fiction in the Bible we've already mentioned. We've got Jesus parables that have violence. We've got Daniel and and revelation that are symbolic image, revisions, visions that are they're, not history. There point to history, but the inner themselves. They aren't are futures yeah, a lot of prophecy yeah prophecy, hey I, the Korean, Ok sounded like a preterist there for a second, so I decided
So a lot of prophecy, like my favorite passes, I like to challenge people with Ezekiel sixteen or Ezekiel twenty three- and I said I dare you- I defy you to read that in the church service, how how dare you quote? Ezekiel sixteen and one thousand seven hundred and twenty three so in this in this God is again describing the seriousness of the sin of Israel and Judah. The two kingdoms falling from him and he uses imagery that is loaded with actuality like having. Lily having the sexual, number of a donkey right in donkey Semen and That's about gang rape, flower bed! word for someone says a bad word, but you still need to say a bad word. It's our tv edit, this throw random word over, I'm just quoting the Bible, so donkey flower bed. So donkeys with flower bed beside
flower bed, but my point is: these are not historical things. God himself uses extreme graphic imagery to describe spiritual. Probably or spiritual sin, and to scribe, since he uses like Michael uses, the the zombie eating flesh. What what it's not good. That's not acceptable! God! You can't use that. So my point is if God uses any clearly, does use fictional entry to point out spiritual truth point out the seriousness of evil right. So yeah. So it's good enough for God, then it's good enough for for me. Now again it doesn't just buy everything, doesn't justify doing pornography, or anything like that. It is It is dangerous area. I will admit that it's not black and white, easy answers. You have to have to pull. You have to in a place where you're showing enough to make the point, but not showing too much. I agree so,
that's something that just worked out in each of the individual stories: alright, well we're going to subscribers are going to be we're going there. Our are made so Marin into do it, do you. Someone else found footage John and so you're, going to miss out on that. If you don't dive in and the rest of us, going to work luxury subscriber lounge, alright in the battle of the yacht right, so join us. If you want to join us, gonna Bambi dot com, slash plans scribes, real, cheap and also good, now, work in our listeners, the DOW, my name g o D, a w a dot com has everything all my novels, all my x. I talked about Hollywood movies and reviews and only source on Amazon. So if you want, if you're just look up my name on the only bring it out on Amazon, so you type up. My name is c about thirty bucks if it is really in books and gay rights, so.
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-06.