From the New York Times, I'm likeable borrow This is the daily yesterday. My colleagues, Michael Keller and Gabriel Dance described the gun. Its failure to crack down on the explosive growth of child sexual abuse. Imagery online today wall of the nation's biggest tech companies and why, despite please from victims, those illicit images can still be found online. It's Thursday, have you are twentieth ass, violent Gertrude, further south.

I can turn it down we'll just getting arm too warm. Last summer Gabriel, and I got a plane and watch the West Coast to meet new lawyers office to speak with family that she'd been represent As I said, I was looking into a dinner, so many facets, so we explained to them a little bit about our reporting and why it was so important that we speak with them. Never here to answer his destiny, Who is this family? All we can say, is that this is a mom and a step dad who live on the West Coast and that's because they only felt comfortable speaking with us if we can protect their privacy we started this not knowing anything about it and I might get emotional here, but as parents trying to figure out the best way for a kid deal with this

to tell a story about what happened to their daughter. It was, I was twenty first took out a thirteen, has it were few shopping with their party militarism, and so one day, Six years ago, the mom is out with her kids doing some back to school shopping and she gets a call from the police and they tell her she has to come in immediately, an unclear and urge you to get a cough about detective thing. You need a delegation went out any talk to me. Fill your kids are in danger. What she called me panicked: com, they weren't drachmas photography. We are aiming for a criminal soldiers, so she goes into the sheriff's office. Then there's this FBI agent introduced himself? He said you know. We think Europe

Children are in danger from their father, particularly the youngest one, and I was Shocked and had no idea what they were talking about. No you mind you I had made to it as well coping with, were in the room, next door playing or doing something I dunno what they do, and he just And on to say that you know were gonna start investigating hammer, we ve been investigating him, they'll be an agent. At our house Friday. To tell us more- and she showed him Friday morning, August 23rd nine in the morning and talk to you outside and we talked outside, and she drops this bomb and with the agent tells her. Is that her children's biological father? had been sexually abusing her youngest child, starting at the age of forty is old and going on for four years.

And not only that he had been document in this abuse with rose and videos, and been posting them online, so. I remember that moment I mean I think I better doubled over something. I was your shot ass, the wind in the star, Long has been going on. How did I I know a mom. So all of those questions and other feelings and- and I mean everything- just came crashing down. What does this couple tell their children? point. The FBI agent said actually it's better If I'm the one to tell your kids in her, sperience. It would be best for the news to come from her as post. For me telling the can. Directly that their dad was arrested because its might blame me and point the finger I set out whatever you think she problem.

There have been a bad and show the kids now the report with them. And you know you're your dad has been arrested. I don't think we ve talked about when it was four or why he was arrested just that he was arrested and there are still investigator you don't even to this day. I think about again. I was married to this guy. How did I miss that still and this? This is six years later, you know. How did I miss that? So there is a piece of that guilt. That's always gonna, be there. I think you, but it isn't your phone and you, Sir, on such hope. It so many do that tomorrow

I still, I don't think I'll ever understand, approves them back she's just now developmental aid dealing with the effects of which his angry and she's out and her daughter. There is now a young teenager so now. You know so and has a counselor.

Is not only doing with all of the normal things that containers have to deal with, but the trauma of being sexually abused. It such a young age, so that something she's just now having to learn how to say now how to inform others that she's not comfortable with something and only thirteen- and while, even though the physical abuse ended six years ago, the images continue to circulate to this day and the parents know that, because they get note I'd. Whenever someone is arrested having these, it is in their possession and why would they be notify? What's? The point It would just be a horrendous reminder every time that this has to in one of the ability.

Is that victims of this crime have is to seek restitution from the offenders, So when they are notified, they their lawyers can petition the court to get a certain sum of money, which is a really good thing and helps to rectify some the damage that was done. But, my dear right, oh my gosh, this person in Kansas and New York. Somebody in Wisconsin saw my kid. Oh, my god, it is a brutal double edged sword these notifications about, and they can watch over and over again for this young woman. Her parents, in their lawyer

received one three hundred and fifty notices in just the last four years, so something on the order of a hundred times a year. Somebody is convicted of having looked at these photos of her daughter. That's her What do you think should be coming from our minds? What do you think is really important for us to understand their technology? Companies need to really do something about this, because it's just I don't know enough about acknowledging register. Where is this crap? Certainly, for this step father his question, which is a legitimate question, is how do we get it off? Why can't I just take it down hurry hurry away,

and ask the same question we had why, two years later. Are these: it isn't videos still showing up on some of the largest technology platforms in the world figured out. We ve got this technology will go to the moon and Mars and stuff. We can get this crap off the were and are there companies doing enough to prevent it all the way back. This past is supported by a trade

reading. Isn't for everyone, but he trade is whether it saving for a rainy day or your retirement e trade. Has you covered? They can help. You check financials off your list and with a team of professionals giving you support. When you need it, you can be confident that your money is working hard for you get more than just trading with e trade to get started visit each dot com, such podcast for more information trade Securities LLC member fin raw as Ipc I'm Wendy Door, and I'm an editor on the daily. For me,. Of my adult life, I thought of the New York Times as edge I ain't news machine that spit out news stories all day, long kind of like a vending machine and I'm embarrassed to say that it wasn't really until I came to work here at the times that I started to think about the reporters behind those news stories and what it takes to get the story. In the first Sometimes these reporters risked their lives. Sometimes they talk to us at two in the morning. Sometimes they call us from a war zone and not.

Do they tell us what's happening on the ground wherever they are, but they also give us the context that we need to understand it if you, like, ring from these reporters every day, which I know I do the work. Thing that you can do to support them and the daily is to subscribe to the New York Times, if you'd like to do that, go to and why times, dot, com slash Subscribe, Gabriel, How do you begin to answer these parents very reasonable question about why these images of their choice sexual abuse keep showing up online. So before we can answer the question of why these images keep showing up, we needed to understand where the images were online and what comes these were responsible for people sharing them, but the national Centre which your you remember. The designated clearing house for this information wouldn't tell us

Athena all right? So why? Wouldn't they tell you why wouldn T give you that information further reason? Why they don't I've. Always numbers is because the companies are not required by law to look for these images, saunter bids voluntary to look for them without the help of these? but you have no idea where these images are where they're coming from many of them are drain and the national Centre is concerned that if they discuss these numbers the day, my damn Those relationships which they depend on when we start to hear anecdotally that there is one company responsible for the majority of the reports and that was Facebook, so we are doing everything we can to run down that number, but very few people know how we Lee do find somebody who has documentation that reveals that number

So in two thousand and eighteen, the National Centre received over eighteen point four million reports of illegal and the number this prison provides us shows that, of those eighteen point, four million, nearly twelve million came from Facebook MESSENGER, while so the vast majority of them, almost two out of every three reports, came from Facebook. Messenger for just that, one service, a facebook, that's right, just a chat application. This doesn't include groups or what posts or any of the other public information that you, my post or share. This is specifically from the chat application. But then, after we reported that number, the d o J actually comes out and says that Facebook, in total, so messenger plus the other parts. The platform

responsible for nearly seventeen of the eighteen point, four million reports that year this is a facebook problem. That's why the numbers at first glance would suggest But we rise we needed to talk to people that really understood this to know what conclusions to come to these numbers help. So we Somebody who had no better than almost anybody, Alex Alex dont say, gave dance, my colleague, Europe now has gone? I'm gonna pay, I'm going back to my office. Hours was the former chief security officer at Facebook for the past several years, he's now Stanford University. So you someone who very much would have seen this happen would have understood what was going on inside Facebook when it comes to Charles actual. Yes, absolutely

You have worked on this area for years. Facebook is facing messengers, fossil rat, twelve million of the eighteen point, four million reports last year, the national centre. That seems like a lot. Can you help us understand gonna, what's happening on that platform, So we ve been discussing one very important number, eighteen point, four million, which is that the number of so come on tell them something that actually is a little counter intuitive that this huge number reports coming from the company. That's not because Facebook has the majority of abuse its because Facebook does the most detection bids them, working the hardest to find this type of content and reported, I expect that that's what he platform that allows assuring files is gonna, be absolutely infested with child sexual abuse. If every He was doing the same level of detection. We probably be the hundreds of millions of reports. What does he told you that

of eighteen million. The reason why Facebook has so many is because other companies are not reporting this at all, essentially ass, when he saying is that Facebook is reporting such a high number of images Nvidia because they're looking for him and that a lot other companies aren't even doing that Facebook checks effectively every image that transfers across the platform an unencrypted manner to see whether or not it is known child sexual abuse, mature. Every single time somebody uploads a photo or a video to Facebook, its scant against a database of previously identified child sexual abuse, imagery organs, and in doing so, Facebook is finding far far more this content than any other company. So we think don't shoot the messenger her! That's what he said.

So has allowed. This is the best method these companies have to identify and remove the imagery what facebooks die? That's right. So why doesn't every technology coming to this. It seems pretty straightforward well the short answer is that it's not baked in it, business model that this is now something that helps them grow their pace of users? It's not something that provides any source of revenue, and is in fact something that works against both of those things. If done correctly, when you meet well every time, facebook detection these images they shut down, that account the your own users, answering your deleting your own users and it costs money. To delete your own users by it. Spend money to hire people to find

accounts that are doing something wrong, that you're them gonna lose as customer. You got it so both of those things fly in the face of almost all of these companies business models star most actually told us something else interesting. The truth is that it industry is still pretty mature at the high levels about the interaction between executives and That'S- that these companies aren't really working together to solve this problem. If you look at say the banking industry, these big investment banks, the ceos each other. But they understand that their boats all rise and fall together. And so they are able to work together on what kind of regulation they like to see, but a lot of the top executives at the tech companies. Really kind of personally despise one another and It is very difficult to get them to agree to anything from a policy perspective and in our reporting we found some pretty egregious disparities and how different companies

police this on their platforms, Amazon, who has a massive cloud storage business for it, a boy handle millions of uploads and downloads day. They dont scan whatsoever. Apple has an encrypted messaging platform, so that doesn't get scanned they also he's not to scan their photos in Icloud, Snapchat Yahoo, they dont scan for videos, at all. Even though everyone knows video is a big part. The problem because the solutions don't exist. They just have chosen not implement them and now Facebook, the company working for this content, most aggressively you're starting to rethink its policy. In doing that, over the last few years to have realised that privacy is important, feature that why their customers are expecting

an citing privacy concerns Facebook announced that it will soon encrypt its entire messenger platform, which would effectively blind them to doing type of automated scanning between chap which again with responsible for the twelve million of those eighteen point- four million reports Stop searching for this child sexual abuse material right, they would limit their own ability to be aware of it. Privacy is important enough that they would handy their ability to find. Criminal conduct and these horrible photos based the criticism that a lot companies have received over the last few years. Moving towards encryption is a really attractive option for them, because it lets them say We really care about the privacy of your conversations and bring it to me that more secure Gabriel? It occurs to me that Individual privacy is enormous and loud,

not so did the daily about it, many upset about it, but The child sexual abuse subject is not as Wanna sought is widely debated, superstar we're talkin about it. Is that reflected in this decision the attention that these two subjects get it and in fact it's one of the main reasons. We chose the sign of reporting the issue of child sexual abuse. Imagery really brings to privacy issue to a head because we're forest with these very very stark decisions. They were discussing here right now, which is that, is it more important to encrypt? indications on a platform where its well known that children interact with adults. Is it worth it to encrypt those communications to protect people? privacy, when we know what the ramifications for children are, but the child protection

Action is also a privacy question, And when you are Facebook, in your saying, we're going to encrypt conversations for the privacy of our users, the child, the kids will say. What we are doing, nothing to protect the privacy of the child in the image I found your bag, harder for their life to ever be private. Exactly and this means that next year or whenever Facebook moves ahead with its plan to encrypt they won't be. Sending nearly seventeen million reports to the National Centre, though, be sending far fewer great

and that means for the family that we spoke with on the West Coast, whose receiving about a hundred notifications a year that someone has been caught with images and videos of their daughter. They all likely be getting far fewer notifications, but not because people are looking at these images, they still welby the family just won't know about it. That's my back there. I want people to care about this, because there is a human factor today. Obviously, in order to force people to look at it in the Tec up it is, I have to do something about it. So where does that leave this family? Now they feel abandoned and angry with the tech companies. They have to do something about it, because, knowing that that's out there,

I I don't know it's just being traumatized all over again. They keep getting these notifications that their daughters imagery has been found its tango, lifelong there's, nothing they can do about being a victim. The rest and the way they described it is it's like getting hit by a truck. They can't stop being in a car wreck every day. Only to get back up and get hit by a truck- time after time after time, there's no other way to say she's, there will be there forever until its remit until somebody comes up with a way to take that And so with this family, his decided is that they are not telling her daughter she's, no.

They're, not going to tell her that her images are online, there's little good, it would do there's no benefits, at least from our perspective. To tell her I mean she needs to worry about soccer and making the team which he worries about sleep overs rushing option is that need to be worrying about the way part of her life available on the internet. I don't want her to be fearful of what other people. Plant senior might be seeing other when they do a Google search for a bullet, a pauper image states horrible. But there is a clock, ticking stand out which turns eighteen. It is a choice. Therefore, I will get of her because she's, an adult from now on when turns eighteen

Federal government is going to start sending her the notifications, so what their hoping is that in the four years until that happens, the Tec. And he's going to solve this problem, which is to say, get these images offline for good, that's what they hope My motivation for this, as we have to explain to her daughter this is on the internet and she has to live with that. Being able to tell her you know if you can tell me in five years, this will be something that was not his and be great. The dad and ask us the question. Can you tell me that when I talk to my daughter about this, when she turns eighteen then I can tell you that these horrific images.

Used to be online but no longer, and what did you say? what I wished I get Tom was yes, That's why we're doing a story Annie I, but I did Tom Ways that that was the point of us doing. This reporting was the hopes that something would change and that in five years those images would no longer be the ones we published his article. I may see how they respond in. They see how tat companies, but from everything we ve learned its only getting worse

What films, your daughter put yourselves, yet she would, if you're the first for looking at the rest of your life. We can tell her this happened, so this is happening world below. There should be a lot more like all chemical. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, a few weeks ago, the National Centre for missing and exploited children released new data for twenty nineteen. It said that the number of photos, videos and other materials related to online child. Sexual abuse grew by more than fifty percent.

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