From the New York Times are Michael by this today, a grand jury report finds the catholic priests abused thousand children in Pennsylvania over appeal read of seventy years. The church insists its old news, but details of their report suggest it's not it's thirst, August system, Laura good sign. This feels like the most explosive reporting on the catholic Church since the Boston Globes Spotlight reporting sixteen years ago. Did it as a surprise to you as a religion reporter, I have to say it didn't. We are now in a new stage of the Clergy sex abuse scandal in the catholic Church and things had been kind of revving up, even more

or this Pennsylvania Grand Jury report was released. Lorry goods time covers religion. For the times, a lot of Catholics were asking. What did people in the hierarchy know about a particular cardinal? That's Theodore mechanic, who was the former archbishop of Washing and you see and hear resigned very recently, because he the record of abusing not only children, but also seminary ends and young priests, and apparently Warnings about him were made to catholic officials, to his brother bishops, to Vatican officials in United States and equally to the Vatican in Rome as well and Not only was he kept in place over many years, but he was made a cardinal and given a very prominent seat in Washington and his resignation. Look

Told you what about this new stage in the church of your scandal? All it got people looking at the stomach cover up so now or in a stage where the people at the very top of the church are them cells accused of being abusers and you're. Looking at the people around them and asking what did they know? When did they know it? So what exactly is in this report that was handed down by this grandeur in Pennsylvania on Tuesday or partly what you get is some numbers. It looked at fixed diocese and Pennsylvania, six out of the eight diocese in Pennsylvania and found that there were three hundred priests that they could identify, who were credibly accused of sexually abusing children, one thousand in potential victims that they could identify, but they very quickly said that those numbers are really a shot in the dark that they're, probably and under count. They say that

victims who either are too afraid to come forward or whose abuser priests were not showing up in church files. The grand jury relied to a great extent on the churches, own files, all bishops, keep secret archives. Those were subpoenaed in the grand jury, look that they say half a million pages, and so they were pulling names and records of priests out of those documents. Now, if there was a priest who did shut up in a document who has never known to be an abuse or well. You know those victims and that prices is not going be counted in this report. So even that set of astonishing number one thousand victims, three hundred accused priest, their basically saying this grand jury, it s, probably a significant understatement. They did say that and I have to say that these now sound like a lot, so a lot of people, but they dont to me. We ve been looking at numbers like this from other diocese, where we ve been able to get a clear picture and

very few I mean there have been very few of these kinds of reports and the reason this one in Pennsylvania, so groundbreaking, is it practically looked at an entire state is the first time a government did. He has investigated what happened in almost an entire state, and now the entire state of Pennsylvania actually has been studied, because there were grandeur is also in the other two remaining Diocese Philadelphia and the diocese of L Tuna Jonestown through something is actually pretty rare for an entire state to be studied. This way when it comes to the church, it never happened before this is unprecedented in the United States. What are some of the details of the abuse, that struck. You in particular, in this report from Pennsylvania. Well unhesitating. I guess because of the the breadth of the depravity

I mean I've been covering this a long time, but when you see a collection of abuse like this. The vulnerability of the victims. I mean you know. Without going into too much explicit detail, they were children abused in hospital rooms. There were Three sisters in one family abused one as young as eighteen months old. Ah, there was some things that read as though it was torture, children who are whipped, stripped and whipped. You know it's his sister collection of hers- and so when you read through this thing, I mean the grandeurs as you read the report and you can see how appalled and angry they are. They are angry.

That what they learned, what do you mean and then as a reader, you cannot help feeling that way. Also, how could you They see their anger in this written report will partly it's in the choice of words. They talk in particular about a play book for concealing the truth, and then they go through point by point. Well, what does the playbook look like and the tone of it is almost sarcastic because they are talking about well, if you were to follow playbook here's what you do as turkey officials number one use, euphemisms, don't talk about re, poor abuse or Bala Station talk about inappropriate contact me. Can you hear the sarcasm here? Number two is send only inexperienced people to conduct investigations so make it look like you're investigating, but then send people who are completely unfair

to actually judge were here cases of child sexual behaviour. Number three is, then: send the priest to a church run treatment centre and then, if you do remove a priest number four don't tell parishioners. Why you know say here on medical leave, or you know, he's had to take another assignment, but don't be honest. And then number five is continued to pay eyed him housing and pay him a salary, even if he is committed child abuse. That's right now. Number six in the play book is if his conduct becomes known, don't remove him, from the priesthood. Instead transfer him to another parish, another location and then last they say

Above all, don't tell. The police in seems like everything about this, is crafted to prevent these cases in these stories from becoming public or entering the legal system. That's right, above all, the thing guiding the bishops is prevent scandal. Scandal could cause people to turn away from the faith. It could cause people to turn away from the church. So you don't want that, and so in some ways there thing we're protecting our people. From this disturbing news

The other thing, though, that they're doing their protecting their priests, their protecting the church? I mean. The irony here, of course, is that this is the worst thing that has happened to the church. Since the reformation historians say this: that's how cataclysmic this is, so they were attempting to protect the church, but it has all backfired. So is the greatest crime that this report is unearthing, not necessarily the abuse itself as absolutely horrific. As it was, but the systematic complicity and the kind of intentional growing up that occurred afterwards inside the church? Well, that is what a lot of abuse survivors have told me over the years. Yes, the abuse was terrible. It was painful, is given me nightmares, but the real torture was being turned away

by my own church or not being believed. They say that has her a whole lot more than the initial abuse. I hear that over and over it's as if you talk to a lot of people were abused by the catholic church. I have and what the amazing is both how somewhere the story sound and yet how each time someone tells me something that is so astounding that I can't get over and something like that happened reporting this last story to what was it well. This is a man who did testified before this grand jury and he was abused as child, for I think he told me about three years.

I think stirring from the age of ten by his parish, priest. Amazingly this man became a priest. His name is James, balloon Jack. He told me that in two thousand ten he finally decided he would go and tell his bishop what happened to him as a child, and he says that the Bishop asked him how many times or your boost to think and James said about fifteen. He said the bishop said to him: oh, you were lucky and Jameson. He say that neither well is usually much more than that, and then he said that that Bishop never investigate and never asked him about. It again said the bishop did help him with one thing made sure that he got in there some treatment that he said helped anything. Maybe

And saved his life, but you know reported or prosecuted or turning the priests. Now you know that didn't happen that really floored me. You were lucky. You are only abused if teen time soon, knowing that the catholic Church has responded in these ways to disabuse for so long. How do the church respond to this particular report with heads of India, I'd say in to almost contradictory waiting. On the one hand, they were contrite, let me say, that in the name of the church of Pittsburgh. And in my own name And then the name of my predecessors, we are sorry, I'm sorry some of the bishops in

Selina were very apologetic, but others were more combative that this is a report about a church that doesn't exist anymore. We ve turn the page. Why don't we get any credit for how things have looked since two thousand and two, and in fact the Pittsburgh Bishop David Subic, really gave voice to that end, and he said there was no cover up going on, and I think that is important to be able to state that we have over the course of the last thirty years for sure the transparent about everything that has in fact been transpire exotic. That point needs to be made. We ve been transparent about everything now, that's actually contradicted in the report that they ve been transparent about everything, but there is the sense among the current class, the bishops that we handle this we have formed and we're not getting any credit for

several months and intense legal battle has played out between my office and individuals who have concealed their identities through sealed court. Finally, I listened to the attorney General Pennsylvania, talk about this grand jury report and what he seemed to be saying was even if the church has reformed, they didn't make this investigation very easy to conduct these petitioners and for a time some of the diocese sought to prevent the entire report from ever seeing the light of day documents or withheld, there was resistance. So what does that say about whether this is really old news he fed? In effect they wanted to cover up the cover up? There was an attempt to cover up of the cover up and what is referred to as the two Diocese Harris Burg

Greensburg attempted to quash the grand jury processing. They said why? Don't we just let local district attorney's handle this knowing full, well that the attorney general was going to bring more firepower Do it more attention, more investigative power, then a number of people who were named in there about two dozen or thirty people are so petition the court to prevent the report from being released, priests. They were priest, they may also and bishops we know at least of one retired bishop, who was among the petitioners, though? What ended up happening? Was the court

ok will release the report and will reject some names. So when you look at this report, there's plenty of veto black out on this report and its name sometimes its whole pages. However, if some of these people had had their way, the report would have been released at all. So while the actual abuse inside the church has been addressed in the sixteen years since that first reporting in Boston, it sounds like this attorney general is saying that the attitude of the church- is still one of concealing. Yes, and I M not sure I agree with the premise of their question- women, I don't think I'll. Abuse has been addressed in the church is still here of fresh cases, every year. There are still a few cases that are new, so it's not all cover ups of old abuse,

So I hope I didn't leave the impression that itself, but if most of the abuses did happen years ago, why has it been sixteen years since the reporting in Boston and this investigation in Pennsylvania is only now coming out in twenty two? Do an investigation into the takes two things that takes survivors willing to come forward, and sometimes that can take years. One of the people who testimony about his abuse as a child. Before the grand jury was eighty years old, wow It is not uncommon for people in their forties if these sixties to finally decide to speak so that the fee first ingredient, but second of all, you need in this case in it Ernie General or a district attorney. Willing to take on the church and willing to put up with the resistance that they're going to get

You ve had the in Pennsylvania, so in Boston. It was the globe it was willing to take this on. In this case, it sounds like it was the attorney general and their commitment to the story. It's like help encourage people to come forward right, and I guess I just wonder as someone who's covered this story for years as you have. What are you thinking about this week with? What's come to light in this Pennsylvania report? While I think what hasn't really been grappled with adequately by the church or by law enforcement? Is this MAC Nature of this in the case of Cardinal Mercuric Washington DC, is one of the keys to that. Here you have a cardinal who was accused of sexually abusing

dolls? Famine Arians were his own younger priests? Supposedly there were people in the church who knew that. Now there are people who have studied the church Who say that situations like that which are more widespread than are known. Bishops who are. Violating thousands celibacy priest violating vows of celibacy with adults with men with women and kind of a secret sackful culture. When you have a cultural like that, they say that if there is a priest whose abusing a child and it becomes known that priest can use the knowledge of other people. Waiting, their vows of celibacy as blackmail.

This is why it never comes out. There is a culture of secrecy, a whole culture of cover up and the church, so in other words the problem is it because of the very nature of the church, including celibacy and hierarchy, that becomes a self reinforcing system where people can use the knowledge of others abuse in leadership to protect themselves from repercussions. That's exactly right, and I can hear you we're spying, this like it as their revelation. There are Catholics who study that here again that either sexuality of the priesthood who have been saying this for twenty and thirty years now along comes this grand jury report which is dropping in a climate where people are beginning who asked these questions about the church? How can we unravel these interlocking problems and those that the new stage?

that we are at and that this report now placed into and wife not simply reach. Read of things we already know contributing to the larger picture that people are beginning to look at is part of the discussion that this is prompting. About whether or not the church needs to fundamentally reevaluated the rules around sexuality in the church. They lack that institutionally, its asked people to not be sexual, given power these questions for a while the questions about how celibacy priesthood of and who can't marry, who can't have physical relationships? How that plays into this sexual abuse scandal the church, has been turning away. Those questions has said. Is there not relevant. That's not what we need to look at, but the people calling for

to be examined at getting louder now, then I've ever heard it before lorry. Thank you very much appreciate. Thank you for having you. I'll be right back How does your home impact your health which all reality help million suffering from loneliness. I'm science, journalist Korea's power and I'm culture, credit Kristen Mines. Are we teamed up with Invest coke Youtube? You t brand at the New York Times to create innovation uncovered the world changing in real time, often in ways we can predict on innovation uncovered. We share stories about the groundbreaking people in technologies there reshaping our culture right now. Listen, though,

wherever you get your podcast in basque or distributors ink here's. What else you need to know like to begin by reading a statement from the President head of the executive branch and commander in chief ivy, unique, institutional responsibility to protect the nations classified information, including by controlling access to it. On Wednesday, President Trump revoked the security clearance. Former CIA director John Brennan, who has emerged as a forceful critic of the president's policies. And temperament is feeding and fuelling hatred and animosity and misunderstandings among Americans during a briefing at the White House Press secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders need clean. That it was Brennan's negative comments about tromp that motivated

the decision to take away his security clearance, for which were tired officials are allowed to keep so that they can advise their success Mr Brennan's line and recent conduct, characterized by increasingly frenzy commentary, is wholly inconsistent with act as to the nations most closely held secrets and facility. The very aim of our adversaries, which is too so, division and chaos on Wednesday afternoon brand Responded to the decision on Emerson, these do believe Mr tromp decided take this action, as he's done with others to try to intimidate and suppress the criticism of him or demonstration revoking my security clearances his way of trying to get back at bay. But this isn't go into the turn me at all, I'm going continue to speak out.

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