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‘Absolutely No Mercy’

2019-12-10

A trove of private government documents offers an unprecedented look inside China’s highly organized crackdown on Uighur Muslims — revealing Beijing’s systematic detention of as many as one million people in camps and prisons over the past three years. In one speech, China’s president ordered his subordinates to show prisoners in Xinjiang “absolutely no mercy.” Guest: Paul Mozur, a technology reporter for The New York Times based in Shanghai. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

Background reading:

  • In one of the biggest leaks of the last half-century, The Times obtained more than 400 pages of internal documents revealing the meticulous planning that has gone into the Chinese government’s crackdown on ethnic minorities.
  • Yesterday we followed our correspondent into the heart of Xinjiang, where one woman risked her life to talk about her experience in China’s system of torture and surveillance.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the New York Times. I'm likeable borrow this today. A secret true of government document offers an unprecedented look inside. China is higher, Organised crackdown on illegal Muslims in one of China's President orders his subordinate to show absolutely numerous. It's Tuesday December tat. Well now the New York Times as obtain leaks, chinese government documents, it says, reveal new details about the crackdown on muslim weakness and the change young region. They include instructions. Paul Mozart tell me about these leaked documents from inside the chinese government troves of classified documents, reportedly leak
from within China Communist Party to suit the thing you have to understand it China is one of those powerful countries in the world, but we know very little about the top politics and how the country works in so many ways. It's a great secret. You have the Chinese Communist Party, which kind of rules over the treat, but doesn't really let anybody get behind the curtain to understand what's going on, and so this leak four hundred and three pages of documents about the concentration camps there. You just don't see this kind of thing happen, so somebody took a tremendous risk in making these documents available to them yes and hold risk not just to themselves to their family to their friends
and beyond the unusualness of the scale of this leap. What is significant about the fact that this is coming directly from the government sue prior to this? The best proof we had of what was happening was mostly anecdotal, so you would talk to relatives of people who had been imprisoned, leg, Princeton, fair cat and maybe be able to talk to somebody like his mother who had been through the system, but you had no real hard proof and Beijing use that, to its benefit, to basically come up with a very different version of reality. One in which this was an attempt to very gently teach wiggers Chinese and to guide them away from extremism, and that this was sort of a beneficial act by the government to raise up
Minority that you know was would have lost in poverty and radical Islam and with these documents in these four hundred three pages, we see that, even as the government is saying this internally, they have a completely different calculus and it's one of punishment and its of indoctrination to bring an entire ethnic minority to heal. Okay, so take us through how these documents lay all that out. So there's, basically, three major take away is from these documents in the first and probably the most important is that the architecture in the ideas behind this crack down come from the very top they come from. China's president, she Jim ping himself long before any camps and opened in the region in twenty fourteen. She jumping goes to Shin job and in the documents. What we see is in secret speeches and intrusive internal discussions
He laid the groundwork for a truly ferocious crack down and what would be the instigation for that cracked and what would be the rationale and twenty forty two giants: Davis Space deadly attacks recently, but Mozilla separatists seek autonomy from Beijing
Twenty fourteen is: is it particularly bloody year in what has been just a long time, conflict between leaguers and Han Chinese? Forty three people killed when above destination of markets in the regional cats and firm king just weeks before she, Jim things, makes this trip. China state media reports. Twenty seven people are dead after last stabbings at a train station, there's a weaker militant attack at a train station in southern China, where leaguers going with knives and stab a hundred fifty people and then, on the last day of she's visit to change on its the second time, this stations being targeted long, there's a car bomb. The goes off the train station in a room. She, the capital of the regional aid, blames this violence and separated from the mainly muslim, weak and minority. Should you have these attacks and they're getting larger in scale,
This was a leader he's watching this happen and trying to figure out how to deal with it. And so he does something that I think would be surprising to a lot of people, but what happens a lie with China and its leadership. He looks to the United States and he says that chinese officials should study the american response to the September eleventh attacks, and I think you know this sort of gives you a sense of the sense of crisis. He felt, even though, in comparison, the nine eleven attacks her so much of a larger scale than what's happening in China at that moment, and so what he says is basically, we are going to have an all out war against terrorism, infiltration and separatism, and he says this very kind of chilling things as we must use the organs of dictatorship and shit
absolutely no mercy and how we fight back against this. He lichens islamic extremism to a virus in a contagion and one of the quotes goes. Basically, people were captured by religious extremism, have their consciences, droid they lose their humanity and murder without blinking, and I and he calls for treating the contagion with a period of painful intervention, airy treatment so effectively. This is You know a doctor or a surgeon going in and cutting something out. That is a problem. shooting thing is making the intellectual case basically for camps for detention for active repression?
right and within months we see indoctrination site start to open these hold dozens or maybe a couple hundred people, and they have classes which basically teach people to disavow Islam or in a profess their gratitude for the Chinese Communist Party, which brings us to the second big, take away from these documents, which is how these small camps evolve into this tremendously complex and large scale system of concentration camps and
since that we see scattered across the region today, and how is that? What do the documents show? They show a trajectory that is led by a single man Chun tranquil. This official Chun shrink what is known as a hardliner and he's been in Tibet for about five years, and during this period he installs police stations across the major cities and across the region to gain really strong control over the ethnic minority tibetan population there. So he seen as a guy who had a solution to a problem in another
part of China that has a similar issue with an ethnic minority that resents chinese rule and the idea is he he could do it once. Maybe he can do it again in August of twenty sixteen. This official is transferred from his post in Tibet to take over in on, and he calls for local officials to carry out an obliterating offensive, and one of his orders, I think, is- telling and also very chilling? He says round up every one who should be rounded up. Any kind of sign of religious devotion
becomes something that you can be rounded up for so you know issues like people who would pray regularly. People have a Koran at home, men who grow long beards or who vies against smoking or drinking people. Steady, arabic and also importantly, people who have ties overseas or relatives were studying overseas. So that's the plan, but it doesn't go all that smoothly. As these sort of orders come down lower level officials are implementing them. The wage and tranquil wants. In some cases they are helping shelter, we yours and letting them out of camps. In some cases there are not putting as many in the camps as children. What would we and so there is a real resistance in some ways to the severity and strictness of what's coming from the top, and why would that be? Given everything that you have? explained. Why would ease lower level officials not carry out the orders that they had been given suit? China is very authoritarian. And but is also not a monolith and
what I mean by that is that the top officials will set goals and then lower officials have to carry them out, but often times lower officials are judged by a different set of metrics, in particular economic growth, and so in this case a lot of local officials were looking at these new guidelines. That said to throw you know a fifth of population into camps and say well, there's no way I can grow the economy at the level. I need to and also do this. This is just unreal.
Stick, and so they started the kind of undermine what these rules were, and so we see very specific examples laid out in the documents of how officials short of grumble privately about this exact problem. And so how does this new leader in a region respond to all this resistance misled as failure to carry out this crackdown? He punishes the officials that aren't seem to be carrying out his orders. He opens up investigations into thousands and thousands of them. Many are sent to jail and their made to sign confessions before they go, and then he takes those confessions any spreads those around to the officials as a sort of warning. You know saying these guys: they didn't listen to my orders and now they're in jail and it's sort of breathtaking, the level of fear not just in the weaker population, but in the population of officials that are having to enact it, because even if they don't want you and actively
no longer have a choice: their stock, so now, with all of this opposition, essentially wiped away. What happens to the camp system engine? It begins to grow utterly unimpeded. So you started with sort of small camps in cities, maybe schools that were repurchased a whole people. Now we see large concentration camps going up outside of cities where you have you know, maybe a dozen buildings, each possibly holding thousands of people, and we see sort of new laws that are then filled in again and again to the point where you just have probably more than a thousand of these camps around the region. The prison system as well to fill up into the prison system has expanded and there's overcrowding there. We see hundreds of thousands of conviction
The people being thrown in the prisons and ultimately the last phase of this is the labour camp, so either factory goes inner offence in a road is built to a factory and we start to see being sort of safe and out into these factories, and this is kind The idea of how you would graduate from one of these camps is. You would eventually return not to your hometown, the two, a factory tower you work in a factory in compulsive labour, and so all of this together by in eighteen is just taking a tremendous toll on the entire region. When you go there, the streets are empty. People are clearly scared businesses are shut down, MOSS, You're, all locked up, nobody dares go near them their closed anyway. People are being taken away at night and
ultimately a million to three million people have been swept up into the system and poets. Staggering about that number is that even in a country the biggest China it's hard to fathom more than a million people suddenly disappearing from their homes and their streets. What is the story that China tells to explain that yet? And that leads us to the third major take away from the documents, which is how the chinese government-
a thought it we tried to hide that all of this was happening over back. We all shop online, a lot and finding promo code. That work is an easy unless you use honey. The free browser extension backed by pay pal that scans, the internet for the best promo code and automatically attitude cart, just download honey to your computer shop, like normal click, play coupons button and watch the prices drop, its one hundred percent free to use and installs in just a few seconds get honey for free. I join honey, dot, com, Slash daily, that's, join honey, dot com Hush daily, I'm Wendy Door and I'm an editor on the daily. For most, my adult life, I thought of the New York Times as a job news machine that spit out news stories all day, long kind of like a vending machine and
embarrassed to say that it wasn't really until I came to work here at the times that I started to think about the reporters behind those news stories and what it takes to get. The story in the first place, sometimes Reporters risked their lives. Sometimes they talk to two in the morning. Sometimes they call us from a war zone and not do they tell us what's happening on the ground wherever they are, but they also give us the context that we need to understand it. If you like hearing from these, Orders every day, which I know I do the work the thing that you can do to support them and the daily is to subscribe to the New York Times if you'd like to do that, go to and why times dot com. Slash subscribe so Paul. What are these secret documents show us about how the chinese government somehow hides this all from its own people. One of the biggest things there worried about is actually students. So a large number of
Your students go out from John each year to go to college all over China, and so within the documents there specifically worried about those children. Returning home for the summer, seeing their home just transformed and their relatives missing and then spreading news about it across Apsley, we chat and other social media and talking about the problem, and so what they do is they come up with this incredibly bureaucrats, a guide. It's basically a manual for how to deal with these kids, who have a lot of questions about the Miss relatives in the empty streets in the locked mosques and what does the manual say should be done? I want, if you can read from it yet should show its called tactics for ants. Questions asked by the children of concentrated education and training, school students, and the first question is a very simple one. Where are my family members and the answer goes
therein a training school set up by the government to undergo collective, systematic training, study and instruction. They have very good condition as for studying and living there, and you have nothing to worry about tuition for their period of study is free, and so our food and living costs and the standards are quite hockney. Our officials accompany them at study every day, offering counselling and assistance and they eat the same food and live in the same dormitories. You have absolutely no need to worry about how they're doing, if you want to see them, we can arrange, for you have allied video meeting that's positively orwellian beer. So, in this telling these re education camps there came a gift to the people in their life is good. The food is wonder. The two wish end is free right. Everything is great. There's nothing to worry about this. Is it
cool and things are good, and so then, as you go down the list, it anticipates people pushing a little bit. So you know question number four is since it's just training, why can't they come home and the answer is. It seems that you're still misunderstanding: how concentrated education is run? Usually you would return home for winter or summer vacation without any problem. But if you are careless and cotton, infectious virus, like Sars you'd, have to undergo enclosed isolated treatment because it's an infectious illness. If you weren't thoroughly cured as soon as you returned home, you had infect your family with the virus in your whole family would fall ill. The party in government would not be so irresponsible that they would lead a member of your family go home before their illness was cured and thinking thoroughly transformed a situation in which they would do harm to others. So here the mission is being described with a little bit more canter,
We think something is wrong with these people and we will not return them home until it's been fixed. Exactly and again, we come back to that language of illness that the idea that this is infectious and that people have to be isolated and the problem with them eradicated and then, as you gonna, go down, it starts to deal with. Well, if the students are pushing a harder, if they seem like their suspect, something's up, then he starts moving more towards threats, and that becomes apparent in one of the questions. When can my family member graduate and leave school, and the answer says that the family. Members must be diligent in their studies, abide by the school rules and do outstandingly standing leaned morning exercises chores, dining stuff, and so on, and family members, including you must abide by the states, laws and rules.
And not believe, or spread rumours and take an active part in collective life. Only then can you add points for your family member and after a period of assessment, they can leave the school if they meet course. Completions Hundreds and for what are these points that this passage refers to show another really important thing that comes from the documents. It leaves out how there is a point system for getting through the camps and then, if you act out or if there are problems, you loose points and if your family members act out you can also lose points? And if you go below a certain threshold, then one year of study, quota, quote study turns into two or turns into three to the concept here is complain to loudly about missing relative and you're missing relative, maybe missing for even longer you have the power. To make us better or you have the power to make this work for them exactly
and this is why fair cat is so unique because he goes the opposite way. He speaks out and continue to speak out and many people in his community in the United States are afraid to speak out and they're, not afraid for themselves as you know there in the United States, they're afraid for their family members and they're afraid the punish since that will come down on them or that other family members can be thrown into camps. For what they're, saying and doing and fair cats point in all. This is that this whole system is bogus that you should not sit back and hope that silence will secure release for your family members, because it will This is just an intimidation tactic and all along the kind of punitive measures are going to be worked out anyway. She, you might as well go out and talk right, because this system, hinges on silence, on people's belief and their fear.
That? Unless they are anything other than silent? He will all get worse exactly and that's why? I think you know fair cat told us that once he had no more fears, he felt tat. He had power, because that was when he could speak up and speak out and say this what's happening, and it needs to stop Paul. What has happened since the times published these four hundred or so pages of internal documents? What has been the response from the international community that his consumed, everything that you have just described Not a lot, you get some condemnations from some quarters, but you know the rest of the world is basically quiet about this, because China is such an important global player and they fear the consequences, and so I taught defence
about that. But we have been speaking the same thing for a couple years, but many of them still trust betrayals Burma, there is a really strong, fag missing for him. It's just both like baffling and infuriating, because you know he's fighting this propaganda war, where the chinese government keep saying these things, don't exist or art as we ve described them, and now you have the proof you have it and then the first feeling I had just bring a document, a slap in the face of country leaders and tell them like this- is the program you needed. He wanted to take this pile of documents and basically use it to slap. The faces of the leaders should continue to do nothing about this across the globe. It is time that you have the spigot Gary's. What more do
the world, need like what do you need like me? They want to see like that. The public bodies, Parliament Montana, even us, become warlike. What? What? What are you waiting? Do? They need a pile of he's in front of them in order to act. What are they waiting for Paul. Thank you very much thanks, Michael while the back.
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Transcript generated on 2020-04-23.