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it's Thursday January twenty seven good evening, Mr Attack, poor Michael, I feel I should tell you in all candour that this was not gonna be represented for tomorrow. It wasn't part of my blouse either we were deepened to making our two of our serious about this moment and a pandemic. All come from. Google hang out, and we saw this news bulletin from you and we had expected anything. You say warning reproduce. Was it a surprise to you will live picture we knew he was going to retire this term smaller picture. There were

rumours in the past several days. Then it might becoming now light there, always those kinds of rumours and I didn't put particular stock in them- most retirement whence come in the late spring or even on the last day of the term in late June. So this was a genuine spress timing. Timewise Tommy was surprise you, so I'm now having flashbacks to all the times where we talk to you about a Supreme Court justice, either stepping down, and I'm thinking now to Justice Kennedy or died in the case of Justice Ginsburg, since we started the show and twenty seventeen. So just to start. This conversation put this Supreme Court news this decision to step down by justice prior into that context. So this is more routine

doesn't involve a death, as we had with justice, Clear Justice Ginsburg. It doesn't involve the prospect of a big ideological. Just as we had with justice, Cavenaugh Arkansas, replacing the more moderate Justice Kennedy or even more strikingly, justice, Amy, Coney Barrett, quite conservative, replacing the quaint liberal Justice Ruth better bird right. Here we have an older liberal justice, justice Briars, eighty three stepping down to give way to presumably a younger, quite similar, ideologically liberal justice, but that's Gonna change the composition of the court before and after it's going to remain a six to three conservative court So this is gonna be remembered if it can be reductive for a moment as the resignation of a liberal justice in the courts

any logical minority who is gonna, be replaced by a liberal justice who ends up in the courts. It illogical minority cover one for one swap that doesn't really change the courts. Dynamics who, right in your right to say that reductive, indifferent justices will have different judicial philosophies and interests in the margins there will be differences, but over the vast run of cases, that's almost certainly what we're going to see. None, the less the left is reading a huge sigh of relief, because what they were terrified of was did justice prior hangs on control of the Senate changes and six three court becomes maybe a seven to court

So this is playing defence, mostly on the part of the left, but nonetheless, there much happier today than they were yesterday because they were so terrified- did have a repeat of the Justice Ginsburg experience where she hung on so long that it gave Republicans a chance to name your successor will talk more about the lesson of justice. Ginsburg pigeon, making it sound like justify would have been aware of that, and perhaps subconsciously acted differently, while the obvious listen is the justice. word that wrong. She didn't step down under President Obama, who would have replaced her with another liberal justice. She was confident that Hillary Clinton, would win riot turned out to be wrong. She thought she could outlast the first term of Donald from President scene. She got close

but not close enough in the waning days of the Trump presidency. She died. and President Trump replaced her with a far more conservative justice, Amy Coney Barrett Right, so the less. Four briar on one level? Is let's not do that again? If I want to be replaced As someone who is not going to do my legacy- and he has talked about that fear, he should do what it can to step down. You're, a democratic president, President Biden and the consumer, They said it could easily flip with the next election and so you'd be playing with fire, if you didn't say down around now or in the next few months, gotta. So, to some degree, this very much does appear to be a justice. Attempting to avoid making the exact same such decisions just skins remade, which many think she would have come to regret No. I don't think he would adopt that as this.

All or the main reason for his stepping down shook I interviewed him in August in connection with a book here out and, No, the one thing you don't wanna talk about, which is the only thing anyone cares about, and I asked him about his retirement, but I'm going to ask you something that comes out of your book, because it eyes to show the relationship to the court in politics? So Dillinger asked this chief justice vanquished these it inappropriate for justice to take into account the party. The politics of this sitting president, when deciding whether to step down from the court and the former chief justice, is no its not in Nepal. red deciding went to step down from the court is not a judicial, and there are many things that route news in many many things go into the decision, his role on the court?

his seniority, his health, You stay there until I die and he didn't adopt the idea that this is a reductive political decision, in fact in general, he is over there, very much resisted the idea that justice is our politicians in robes and really insisted there doing something different, and I think that thinking in This case at least carried over into the retirement decision, which he would not want to cast as a wholly political decision makers lay aside this. He said I want somebody appointed just reverse everything done last. Will we be able to psychology there alone blurred?

and you said a moment ago that justice prior was very invested in making sure is. Legacy was not undone by a justice of a different ideological flavour. So let's talk for just a moment about briars legacy, and the stamp that he left on the high court and on the law, and here I'm going to be very honest and say that, His prior is probably the justice with whom the least familiar you're, not alone in Nepal, released just in the past few days. He was the justice about whom the fewest people had opinions

Why you're ways that will you know he's a bloomed, older white guy, a bitter technocrat specialised in administrative law? It wasn't for lack of trying justice Briar was out and about in Washington and when he went on a book tour he bought up everywhere, but for whatever reason he didn't capture the public's imagination, but he might not have captured the public's imagination but obviously captured a president's imagination. Does he ended up on the Supreme Court? So what's that story? He was at hard law, Professor Harvard LAW, professor, but he also worked in the gulf. quite a bit, he was now thrust, learn the justice department. He was in the special prosecutor's office in the Watergate Investigation and importantly, was chief council to the Senate Judiciary Committee. No, he had friends there on both sides of the oil which helped him get nominated to a federal appeals, court,

and then on Friday morning, associate justice, Byron, White Announces retirement after thirty one years on the high court, when President Bill Clinton had his first chance to dominate someone to the Supreme Court, shaven, briars and exceptional human I would hope they would go forward with the briar nomination. Justice briars seem to be in the legal position. He certainly a person of high quality, high ethics and higher moral values. justice briar he's these, but I can't help a column accident prone either. It is a kind of Mr Mcgowan figure and away he had bad bicycle accident, any turn for his interview a little dazed and confused it didn't go. Well, President Clinton found him. Sort of overbearing didactic and the spot went to Ruth, better Ginsburg, please passed over from we'd, better get correct,

and that seem to be the end of it. He went back to Boston where he was serving other federal, Beals gourd me said. Well, I guess I had my shot. I guess I blood, the Supreme Court's staunchest liberal, is expected to announce your retirement today, Justice Harry Black unexpectedly, but he will leave the bench but a year later, a secondly vacancy open upon the court, and this time he had a better rapport with President Clinton. It was widely regarded as one of the leading intellects on the federal bench. I asked assented to consider and promptly confirm The nomination of just stable briar is the one hundred eighth justice of the Supreme Court, and this time he got the job. I'm glad I didn't bring my bicycle that actually, so once he gets under the quartet on what-

Kind of justice was he, but he was a conventional, moderate liberal by comparison to the three other democratic appointees with whom he served. He was slightly more conservative. He voted in a slightly more concerted direction in say criminal cases, but there wasn't a huge gap between him and justice is Ruth, Better Ginsburg, Sonya Sort, o my or and Alina Kagan. He got to write some major abortion decisions, including one as recently as twenty twenty straight Down a Louisiana law that would have left a state with a single abortion clinic He was also- and this is characteristic of him. He really did see both sides of issues and he would often say this is a big country. People have lots of different opinions. We have two on the Supreme Court. Take account of that and figure out a way that we can all live together and he made them.

in a second abortion Jason, two thousand the opinion of the court number. Ninety nine thirty September against car heart will be announced by justice, Briar Straight down in Nebraska LAW the band a procedure that its opponents called partial birth abortion. This case concerns the right to an abortion. We understand the immensely controversial nature of the problem. It was balanced in presenting the clash of values. In that case, It is of Americans believe that life begins. It conception. He said. On the one hand, millions of Americans believe delays, begins its conception and that, consequently, an abortion is like causing the death of innocent child. They recoil at the thought of law that would permit it. On the other hand, he said other millions fear that a law that forbids abortion

we condemn any american women, two lives that lack dignity, depriving them of equal liberty and leading those with least resources to undergo illegal abortions, with attendant risks of death and suffering. I think that open mindedness and that sensitivity to trying to reconcile clashing values was characteristic of him he's a very curious engaged in open minded jurist. So, let's turn now to the process. of replacing justice prior because it's coming on us very quickly so subject that already in the past few hours started to consume Washington What do we know about it so far? Well, for one thing we might now want to get ahead of ourselves were recording this Tuesday afternoon. There's been no formal announcement

Yet I would imagine that tomorrow, justice will send a letter to President Biden, announcing his retirement ripe and that will start the machinery rolling in the White House. Will vet candidates interview them nominated somebody probably a month from now the Senate will hold confirmation, hearings and

In one version of events, everything will march forward smoothly and will have a new Supreme Court justice by really summer, or maybe things go sideways order. It back. This pod cast is supported by service. Now organizations everywhere are looking to service now to digitally transform everything about the work they do, so it simply works better helping employees focus on the work they love and giving customers the experiences they ve come too,

spect? That's why, over eighty percent of the fortune, five hundred works with service now the world works with service. Now, if you find yourself bewildered by this moment, where there's so much reason for despair and so much reason to hope all at the same time, let me save I hear you. I measure climb from New York Times opinion host of the Ezra Poncho and for me, the best way to be back that bewildered. feeling is to talk it out with the people who have ideas and frameworks for making sense of it from The Washington post to my time is editor in chief at box and now isn't it. in columnist at the New York Times, I've tried to ask the questions that matter to the people at the heart of those matters like how do we climate change? Is the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated to many aspects of our lives? What he's psychedelic teach us consciousness and in what is safe. I understand about our present that we mess. This is the answer. Poncho and there is going to be plenty to talk about, you can find,

episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Wherever you get your pipe costs. So I am speaking of nominations that can go sideways. Let's get us out of the way, can Republicans block President Biden nominee to replace justice prior is that within their power? So I cover the Supreme Court. I dont cover Congress, but have we had our colleagues who do and they say that? No, there is no mechanism for Publicans, acting alone to block the nomination to filibuster rules, don't apply to Supreme Court nominations and so long as Democrats have their very slight edge in the Senate, and they stick together on this. They can confirm a Supreme Court now. Many folks are given that. Let's talk about that number of Democrats, fifty of them plus five present Harris on the one hand

does seem to suggest relatively smooth sailing for President Biden in terms of getting his nominee across the finish line, but on the other it suggests it could be very perilous because he cannot lose a single vote. From a single senator within his party, so presumably he's gonna have to pick this supreme court. How many very very carefully yes and that's the pattern, the President's like people with excellent credentials in no hint of scandal in their backing. and you know his goal will be not only to hold his party together, but do what didn't used to be so in common, which is pick up votes from the other party, I'm injustice, buyer himself was confirmed with eighty seven votes right. Even Kagan Roberts, Alito numbers included members of the opposite party, it it's a fairly recent phenomenon that the centre should be

oh polarized, there you don't have any votes from the other side so that you can tell whose, in their running at this moment for the Supreme Court and how might both the thinness the democratic majority in the Senate and the fact that Republicans don't vote for them. Supreme Court nominees anymore. How does that impact these candidates potential chances? Will we know one thing, Michael because President Biden during the democratic primary told us this one thing I committed and if I'm elect the President have an opportunity to appoint someone to the core. We'll be our point. The first black woman, the court, which is he's vowed to nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court, is required that they have representation. Now is long overdue, and so among black women judges attention is really. just three of them. Perhaps the leading candidate is guitar.

You Brown Jackson, who sits on the federal appeals court in Washington, Dc Circuit, Harvard College, Harvard LAW, school clerk for Justice Schreyer, and that kind of legacy can help. You remember, probably the justices Gore such Ann Cavanaugh, both clerk for Justice Kennedy I do, and it was thought that that may have helped hasten judge, this Kennedys departure the knowledge that he might be replaced by justice, Cavenaugh of whom he was re fun and also helpful- and this goes to your point- about holding the party together and may be picking up. Some boats on the other side and Judge Jackson was recently confirmed in Dc Circuit and picked up three republican votes. Lindsey grams

using Collins and listen Rakowski, so she has been through this and a confirmation process and shown that she has bipartisan appeal, which is no doubt very valuable to present by right. That should give the way, though, some comfort, although voting for someone for an appeal, scored job, is not the same as voting for them for the Supreme Court right. Ok, who is this

and judge who we think is on the presents. Lest the second candidate did. A lot of attention is focused on is lay under Krueger, whose adjust is on the California, Supreme Court and head served as the acting principle. Deputy solicitor general in the above ministries and those who wish to jealousy office of course presents arguments. The Supreme Court, so she's known in the Supreme Court, is argued their dozen times. She also has fancy credentials Harvard College LAW, school and clerk for Justice, John Paul Stevens, so like Judge Jackson she's in the traditional mould, these days of what a lot of presidents are looking for in terms of candidates for Supreme Court, nominations got it and what about the third person? The third person is Michel child. She serves a federal,

district court, a trial court in South Carolina and to elevate someone from a district court directly. The supreme Court would be quite unusual in these days. Unheard. She also, and have it. I really background she as a large degree from the University of South Carolina. Let the administration seems interested in casting its net more broadly, and an indication of that is the judge. Childs has been nominated to the Dc Circuit herself, which is in India asian administration might be grooming her. But perhaps it's too soon for this first vacancy in the Baidu Administration, to move someone from a trial court to the appeals court and then immediately to the Supreme Court Anderson Would we be remiss if we didn't mention the speculation that present Biden could not his vice President Kamel Harris a black woman to the Supreme Court, or

Think that's purely in the realm of speculation. You know, I don't think it's a particularly serious suggestion you, when you were asked about the place president, possibly be selected as a Supreme Court nominee. You say not speak to any considerations that mean she is being considered. The windows press secretary battened down today saying that the president has every intention, as he said before, a running for re election and for running for re election with vice president Paris on the ticket as his partner, she's gonna, be job and she will be running with President Biden in twenty twenty four, but I guess you know she's she's, a lawyer she's, a black woman she's a prominent Democrat. I suppose there will be many weeks now where people are throwing run all kinds of ideas, but I dont think we're at the end of the day, camel Irish is gonna, be on this agreement.

I'm thinking back to your remark that nominations can and do go sideways. Is there anything so far in the background of any of the women you just mentioned, that suggests liabilities, or that their nomination might be complicated.

so there's no reason to think that there is anything like an authentic problem to say nothing of a scandal in the background of any of these judges. But this scrutiny that denominate will undergo will be enormous. Every public statement they made every client they represented will be closely scrubbed and people will try to caricature anything. They view is a false step and therefore, however, carefully nominees vetted, the process will get very intense, very fast. So I'm curious you think the next couple of weeks. This whole process is gonna feel on one level. It seems like because this is a one for one exchange over liberal wing justice for probably a level

Just as structural change, the dynamics of the court that perhaps the normal rancor of the confirmation process might not be president or is at a mistaken assumption? You would hope so the stakes are obviously lower than in some of the recent Confirmation battles. But I think we live in an era where it doesn't matter that there will be political posturing for the sake of political posturing and it will be unpleasant to watch it'll be unpleasant for the nominee. be particularly good for the Supreme Court, and so, while I've I've covered confirmation, hearing is back to chief justice, Robertson, two thousand five and I used to kind of like them.

you got a sense of the nominee his or her feet. Now they answer questions and their knowledge of the law. It things seem to have taken a turn and the modern contemporary confirmation process is sort of ugly, and I can't see I'm looking forward to it on that. No Adam will afford a covering this process with you for the next several weeks. Thank you for your time. We always appreciated. Thank you. Michael.

On Wednesday, the times reported that Senate Democrats plans to carry out the confirmation process, of whom every Biden nominates to replace justice prior within about five weeks. That's the same rapid timetable that President Trump used to confirm justice, Amy Coney bear it in twenty twenty or we re back. This path cast a supported by service now, every day service. Now, as helping organizations like yours, fine, smarter, better, faster ways to work, there are infinite applications of their solutions to help solve your toughest business. Challenges to

there. We can create the future. We imagine, because, when the work flows the world works, the world works with service. Now here's what else you need to nerdy on Wednesday. In a highly anticipated announcement, officials at the Federal Reserve said they were likely to raise interest rates starting in March, in an attempt to lower inflation. Raising interest rates is the feds most powerful tool for cooling and overheated economy, because it increases the cost of borrowing and makes consumers more cautious about spending. Fair officials are wagering that raising interest rates will lower consumer spending and therefore bring down the cost of goods

Madeira and Pfizer say they are developing a boost. Her shot specifically designed to fend off the almost one variant of the corona virus, which has repeatedly broken through traditional vaccines. Both companies say they are close to testing the boosters on humans, but potential regulatory approval is still many months away. Tidies episode was, used by Michael Simon Johnson aircraft and clear tennis getter it was edited by LISA, Chow Impeach Coward, contains original music by Dan Power and was engineered by Korea shrapnel Our theme, music is by Jim Gomberg unbundling of wonderingly

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