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Confronting China

2020-07-29

A cooperative relationship with China has been a pillar of U.S. foreign policy for more than half a century. So why does the Trump administration think it’s time for a change? Guest: Edward Wong, a diplomatic correspondent for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily

Background reading:

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the New York Times. I'm likeable borrow this is a daily today. Who operative relationship with China has been a pillar of. United States foreign policy for more than half a century effort, one while the Trump administration leaves it's time for a change it's Wednesday July. Twenty nine. Edward KIT honour what happened in Houston. Last week sure we first got a tip that something was up with the chinese counselling Houston around Tuesday afternoon, or so that the chinese ambassador to the EU s had been told by american officials that he had three days to shut down the council and that
employees, your has thirty days too then leave the country and a colleague and I started chasing the step. But we couldn't quite near lay down to publish a story, might only ten break and then used in fire fighters and police. Responding to the chinese consulate in Montrose after reports of a fire proves were called to the building. In the evening. I start seeing these videos of people burning things. Middle barrels in older middle barrels There was video of fire trucks in police cars surrounding the council, with their lights on so quite a dramatic scene, and local media were reporting that documents appeared to be being burned in the courtyard of that building
you know for people in the national security world and a foreign policy world. When you see people burning lots of documents or papers at diplomatic mission, the assumption is that their about to clear out of the mission. So when I saw those videos, I realise that the two way gotten that the chinese ambassador had been told to shut down the Houston concept within three days was indeed true. Chiaja year on July, the twentieth The youth of rubbed the author, China, to close these consulate in Houston and within hours to Chinese Foreign Ministry, confirm that indeed Jane what we urge the? U S to reverse. This is incorrect decision immediately. All the water, China. We have definitely take unnecessary, legitimate actions
and why would the? U S, take this pretty significant move of kicking these chinese diplomats out of this consulate in Texas? Officially, people in american government told us that they targeted the hissing council, because it was a hub of economic espionage and trade secrets. Espionage in the? U S, but american officials, having given detailed evidence on the activities undertaken by the chinese diplomats and it's a clear to us how much farther these actually go beyond the types of covert or s activities that take place admissions around the world, including ones run by Americans, but in the bigger picture a mingle of some american officials in the Trump administration is to unwind range of diplomatic and economic ties that have built up between the: U S and China over the decades. Ever since President Nixon started the opening of China back in nineteen, seventy one
so there's a version of this where the? U S was looking for a visa unwind this relationship and espionage, real or not, was that reason right and why would the transmission wanna unwind its relationship with China needs are singing Your biggest trading partner, it's a global superpower, it's a nuclear power, so its pre significant decision. It is significant and there are some senior officials and demonstration whore against this. Throughout the last two and a half years, we ve seen broadly speaking, two factions of advisers on China competing against each other for trumps ear and that helps explained some contradictory impulses and policies that we ve seen coming out of demonstration on China during this period. What do you mean?
on one side you had the ones wanted to confront China in part over trade, in also in part over national security matters, in whom you had Peter Navarro, whose a White House trade adviser patio country lies, who wrote a book called death by China and then you also had Secretary state my Pompeo. They very much want to undermine our western values, all the things that we most dear and those people saw China's threat to America and in on the more cooperative side you have, for example, Treasury Secretary Steve, Minutiae, We need to work together to maximize the benefit for both sides, people who still cling to the classic notion of free trade and thought that the traditional relationship with China was,
stabilizing force in the world, and that this had helped american companies get wealthy over the years as well as have benefited american consumers and ITALY. When it comes to the who want to confront China when it comes to the payment of arrows and the Might pompiers. What is their case for why China is such a threat to the? U S and should be
condemn will they argue that China presents arrange a strategic threats? The? U S. For example, they say that China's attempts to export its five g technology, its next generation communication, singing biology around the world, presents a security threat. They lay that China's recent military expansionism in the south, China, Sea and its vast maritime claims in that sea are also security threat and they would impede american military dominance in the Asia Pacific. They point to attempts at economic espionage by China and vast range of cyber attacks that have targeted the american government and other important institutions around the world. In my right to think that, from the start of this presidency, the confrontation camp more or less prevailed. Well, it's complicated the first big blow to the? U S. China relationship under the Trump administration was in
twenty eighteen. We're gonna have some incredible. Things were just announcing very big tears today on China, when President Trump started putting terrorists on going down of goods made in China. China retaliated by doing the same on american goods. So here's what they would give a target farm products such as soybean cars, safe food energy spiral downward from their medical equipment, energy products that would start as he was trying to trade or escalates business leaders have been spent
not that I see so. The trade war had this huge impact on companies both in the. U S and outside of the U S and create a lot of instability in their thinking about how to do business. The escalating trade battle between the? U S and China is rocking investors around the world, create a lot of instability in the stock markets, which trunk watches closely and some farmers in the USA. The disruption of normal trade with China has far too many of them to go bankrupt important groups of voters would support a tram, for example, farmers in the MID west for starting to suffer. I was a trump voter. I voted for the present, certainly, but he certainly hasn't come through he's lost on trade is lost on trade, and certainly they saw agricultural products like corn and soybeans piling up in the MID West, because China had imposed terrorists and their end to strike back at travel. So I won't be voting for the present again
so Trump and some is economic advisers, especially those who were preaching more cooperation. China's started to get nervous about these economic side that there were seeing as well as about the anxieties of these midwestern farmers and potential trump voters. There. And so what are they duties? Cooperation camp folks who are not happy with this trade war will, as they go through negotiations for a potential truths that a trade war president trunk talks with presidency of China several times, and they have these likes or one on one conversations, TAT trump likes to do with leaders and in each of these tromp circle
he's out to sea and its clear he's willing to sir brush aside alot of sword. The most egregious behaviors of China in the pursuit of this trade deal like what, in one conversation according to John Bolton, the foreign national security adviser Trump encourage see to actually continue. Building interment camps for Muslims in the north west of China can sort of signal that this was big issue for him. These are the weders right. These are that we use is actually to one's a million or more held over the recent years and in term in camps and, for example, you we ve seen these during this period. These pro democracy protests arise in Hong Kong and while trumps, national security AIDS are supportive of them. Trump himself tells you privately in a phone call that she should just hand or those in whatever way you want to deal with those in that trunk himself will not thinking about those and he'll. Tell
aids, not to say anything vocally and on those protests either. So in this trade war, that's supposed to represent confrontation with China, there is actually a fair amount of cooperation going on most of it by the scenes. Right is actually and ultimately, in December, they reach a tenant of agreement, and then they sign that in January of this year- and I think that brought a big sense of relief to the people in the cooperation camp. By think, they were relieved to see a sense of stability returned to this key economic relationship. Now the confrontation people in the White House and in other agency
were generally disappointed. I think, by the outcome of the deal. They felt that tromp had sidelined alot of the hardline policies they have pushed for in the first half of the restoration, for the sake of just trying to get a marginal increase in agricultural purchases, and also there is a sense of outrage among some of them, and this was in John Bones recent book that tromp was also aiming for this negotiate truce purely for reelection purposes that he pleaded with sea in a conversation that she should get help him get reelected. She helped them when and now the best way to do. This was the source reach some sort of truth or deal in the trade war that he could then bring back to his constituents, and so certain national curing people were outraged
saying that tromp was focus purely on personal politics and was not looking after the national security interests of the United States Edward. What you're describing of our especially this trade deal does not seem like a relationship that is about to be funded really unwound and blown up. So what happens to get us from that truce to now into the shutdown of his consulate in Houston? Well, what changes things is this pandemic that starts and Central China and spreads across the globe. That sets the two powers on a much more confrontational course
Order it back as a surgeon and president of Howard, University, Doktor Wayne Frederick, believes even are tough times can, to strength and change. This is a difficult stormy do it, but it was strengthened in a way that no class whom activist he could ever have I'm only shipper host of the past have made all the difference I talked to achieve is about how their managing the current moment and charging a course future find that made all the difference anywhere. You get your podcast created by Bank of America, I'm Wendy Door and I'm an editor on the daily. For most, my adult life, I thought of the New York Times as a giant News machine that spit out news stories all day, long kind of like a vending machine and
embarrassed to say that it wasn't really until I came to work here at the times that I started to think about the reporters behind those news stories and what it takes to get the story in the first place. Sometimes reporters risked their lives. Sometimes they talk to two in the morning, sometimes they call us from a war zone and nodded Do they tell us what's happening on the ground wherever they are, but they also give us the context that we need to understand it. If you like, hearing from these, orders every day, which I know I do. The work I think that you can do to support them and the daily is to subscribe to the New York Times. If you'd like to do that, go to end why times dot com slash subscribe? I spoke with president. She, where the great dark is working very hard, I have to say, is working very, very hard. So in the first weeks after the virus started
spreading around the globe. Tromp was still praising see publicly. If you know anything about him, I think he'll be in pretty good shape their they ve hurry up a rough patch, and I think right now they have it. It looks like a getting it under control more and more This is ensuring fair re right after they had signed the trade agreements. So tromp was still in the smelled where he wanted intensely to preserve that that negotiated truce, but by the spring we got hit by the virus that came from China. Tromp. Was laying into China publicly for what had happened. You know the pandemic has spread into. Corners of the. U S: economy, it was a shambles. Tromp was seeing his re election chances starting go down the drain and we continue our relentless efforts to defeat the chinese virus.
Using injurious racist at all levels. It comes from China comes from jump, accurate, and so his campaign strategists came up with this idea that they can try shift the conversation to China rather than having people focused on transfer failures on the pandemic, and thereby blaming China for all of this, they could win back some of the votes that Trump starting to lose. Some of his top advisers started speculating whether the virus might have started from a lad accident. I can tell you that there is a significant amount of evidence that this
came from that laboratory in one, even though there is no evidence for that, and have you seen anything at this point that gives you a high degree of confidence that the world has instituted. Virology was the origin of this. Yes, yes, so you have this very concerted effort by tromp to really cast China as the person or the entity to blame this, China's cover up of the wheel. Hon virus allowed the disease to spread all over the world instigating a global pandemic, and where does the pandemic fit into the kind of now familiar outlines that you have described of the confrontation camp versus the cooperation can have to imagine it. I've challenges both the pandemic really empowers. The
the hawks in administration to say we really have to go after China. Look at how there miss governance, how their political system led us to this point led America into an economic crisis stats than the worst since the great depression, and even the people in the cooperation camp are starting to China, their minds a bit. It's hard to tell the world that we should. Prior tides is trade agreement dad just rest and some agriculture purchases when you ve got this global crisis enveloping everything, and when Merrick and citizens are,
anxious about their future and how to shine, respond to these attacks from Trump and from his advisers. So, where we're hearing the spring, is chinese officials denouncing the? U S for all of these attacks and they also point out that the chinese system actually has handled the virus a lot better than the american system? They say, even though there might have been this outbreak in central China. Look at how we controlled it through the measures we took and look at how the viruses running granted in the? U S and China also then starts in trying to send out aid to other countries,
It starts sending shipments of, for example, medical supplies, medical equipment, face mass to other countries around the world and even to parts of the? U S to try and sort of mask over its own responsibility for how the outbreak began in its country. So the relationship between the two powers is banned in Vienna got worse and we have some breaking news coming in. China's annual parliamentary meeting has been officially opened in Beijing and its expected that national security legislation for Hong Kong will be discussed during the seven day session in the late spring. Chinese officials start talking about this new national security law that they one imposed in Hong Kong bodies. Me somethin used, has sent shock waves across the city. It says Beijing will set up a new National Security Bureau in Hong Kong, supervised by the central government to crack down on dissent in the city
The legislation has faced sharp criticism from governments all around the world and spark new protests in Hong Kong, and so this continues the downward spiral that you as China, relations have been on. Right, imagine that that security law was especially upsetting to those who want confrontation with China. That seems to be exactly the kind of thing that they find so objectionable. That's right! As you recall, they were very upset at Trump for putting the Hong Kong issue on the back burner in his To try to reach some sort of trade truce with China, and now they were intent on pushing forward on policies and actions that would make the kindest Party pay a price not only for what they were doing, Hong Kong, but for their actions in other parts of the world and for their role in the pandemic. So they started
announcing a series of actions against China that really brought the relationship to new low. They said that Hong Kong, was no longer a autonomous of and that the? U S who break off its special relationship with Hong Kong while they impose visa restrictions on a category of students who were associated with military institution in China. They said that these students can no longer come to the. U S, to do research or study because of suspicions of potential economic espionage, David and floated a proposal internally to Block all ninety two million members of the Communist Party from travelling to the Eu S, as well as their family members, which could encompass hundreds of millions of people, it's really felt like a moment where the gloves have been taken off in relationship and where the people in demonstration.
Want to fundamentally reorient. The relationship with China have the upper hand right now, and nor is it possible that, at the end of the day,. What you're describing here and the events of the past couple of weeks. It's the white strategy for the. U S, because China is behaving in ways that fundamentally violate american Valley. Especially in Hong Kong, especially with the weaker so no matter what motivates Donald Trump to begin confronting China is that potentially, a good thing for the United States or the people who are supportive of the more confrontational approach, say that This type of strategy on China is long overdue. Now it's time to really push back against China on all these fronts, especially at a time China has overtaken the? U S yet as the world's largest economy, and it still rising power in this
is a moment when we have this opening to really be framed. The conversation on China, not only in Europe but globally and sort of rally, can trees to really confront China on a whole range of issues right away. This is our last chance right, they see it as time running out. Then you ve got. When other camps who say we don't know where this wine distort system. Spiral and relations that starts to rode all the diplomatic ties, economic ties, the people to people ties that have kept the relationship firm over the decades, a relationship that, in unlikely when you ve got this close relationship between western democracy and an authoritarian state and somehow Dave managed to avoid open conflict. They ve managed, Boyd WAR, and where could we end work the world end up? If we start breaking off those ties now right, it could end up in a pretty dangerous place,
right. So I want to return to where we started this conversation, Edward, which is with the? U S, kicking China out of his consulate in here and because it very much seems like this is the capstone to this approach, and I wonder what the response has been from China and what that tells us about what this Dynamic of confrontation is going to start to look like over the next coming on, and maybe even years last Friday we saw China announced that it was going forced to use to shut down its council to do which is the only diplomatic mission at the? U S, hands and western China. It's a very critical mission for the? U S, because it allows american officials to observe what's going on in the vast reaches of that part of the country, including in Tibet, which is a very important issue.
For the. U S. People in Beijing Couch this as a reciprocal action, and some people still say that they could have taken a more ethical tories step, but that they appear to be willing to hold back and see whether there might some reset of the relationship is Trump lose the election in November, but even if that were the case, I am not sure that their orientation of the relationship we change there might be a temporary halt to the tit for tat cycle that we're seeing. But if you like because of where the? U S and China are now in the world and the UN and ideological systems in both countries, we might be on course, for a long term. Confrontation. Thank you. Thank you all
could hear that a few days ago, in this very dark speech, does Secretary state my compel gave at the next and library we that freedom, loving nations the world must indeed China to change it more creative and asserted ways, because Beijing's actions threat, our people and our prosperity. He laid out a vision of a potential cold war with China and said that China, with the most challenging foe to the United States, people of good faith, can debate why free nations allowed these bad things to happen for all these years. Perhaps we were in a heap about China's virulence, communism or triumphal us after our victory in the cold war, or gravely capitalist or hoodwinked by Beijing Stock of a peaceful rise
Whatever the reason, whatever the reason today, China is increasingly authoritarian at home and more grasp of hostility to freedom everywhere else. President drop said enough ever. Thank you very much. I thought I might go. It's been greatly on the show all the way back. Third believes there is no substitute for comfort with one of a kind details like memory, foam cups, no slip, straps and breathe fabrics, their brows and underwear focus on keeping you comfortable and supported in eighty sizes, including half cups, go to third love dot com slashed daily,
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Two nationwide protests over policing is it ever appropriate server the president to solicit or accept foreign assistance in an election depends. What kind of assistance is it ever appropriate for the president or presidential carried to accept or solicit foreign assistance of any kind in his or her election? No, its not appropriate, has sorry you had to struggle with when MR turning down now, let's turning several democratic law makers, including representative Priscilla Jaya, Paul of Washington State, demanded to know Why bar had deployed federal agents to organ to monitor black lives matter protest, but not too Michigan, where conservative
protested or corona virus lockdown order. There is a real discrepancy in how you react. As the attorney general, the top in this country, when white men with swastikas storm a government building with guns, there is no need for the president to quote activate you because they're getting the president's personal agenda done, but when black, and people of color protest, police brutality, systemic racism and the president's very own lack of response to those critical issues. Then For simply remove them with armed federal officers, pepper bombs because they are considered terrorists by the president, and I get a right, MR barked, I have responsibility for the federal government and the White House is the sheep. Mr Varela on Tuesday, the nations second largest teachers, the Amir
confederation of teachers announced that it would support members if they choose to go on strike. For unsafe, safe openings. Do you and said that strikes should be a last resort, but the announcement gives local teachers Guido eleven, in negotiations over the kinds of protection the teachers should have. Open schools That's it for the daily, unlike whereby see tomorrow,.
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-29.