My name is Francis Robe, less I'm a national and foreign correspondent for the New York Times. I think people have a vision of reporters from the movies pecking away the computer. I dont work in the newsroom. I work on the street. My sources are political dissidents convicts fugitives once when an ex cop told me that he had been framed for murder, I spent months investigating it because that's the kind of journalism that I do, the kind that require is bearing witness. If this kind of journalism is important to you, you can support it by becoming a New York Times subscriber good, and why times I come slash subscribe from New York Times unlikely This is a daily. It's been four years since the twenty sixteen election demonstrated the power for war that social media companies have come to play in shaping political discourse and beliefs in America? Since then, there have been.

Growing cause to address the spread of polarization and misinformation promoted on these platforms. Won't facebook, has been slower to acknowledge a need for change, twitter embraced and said made mistakes, but with three. Wants to go until the twenty twenty election. These changes have been incremental, while twitter itself is more popular than ever.

Today a conversation with twitters seal Jack Dorsey about whether those changes will be enough, it's Friday August Seventh pay their arrest, hey Jackets, Michael how're, you I'm good data. We sent a note. Your icon was that you as a child- or that was a child- was me as a child. Ah how old, maybe three or four, and what should we deduce from the fact that your icon as a child words me? It is not just a child, the reminder, the inner child, the innocent child. Here

so if you're ready, I think we are ready, ruddy, ok, Jack, I'm gonna start with unintentionally provocative question, which is: do you believe that you are one of the most powerful people on earth right now now no now, and when I worked, because if it's a reference to the power Twitter has, I think our powers or way. In the hands of the people. They use it. Every single then- and that's that's, been the thing that is most special about the service is that everything that has made twitter powerful has come from the people using the people really push the direction of where the service goes and what is and what it wants to be in our job as a company. My job as an individual

the company is to Isabel Checkpoint on that, but isn't that in many ways what you're you're grappling with the way in which the people and in a way the unchecked power of the people, has transformed twitter and is not a lot of what were seen from you now and effort to kind of moderate that terrain. It intend to intervene in some way to control that power. I don't think it's unchecked power first, but I think the bookkeeper consular checking themselves and not what you see in public conversation in the first place. What we're work dealing with, though, is people gaming systems, people taking unfair advantage of systems people. Up accounts in order to manipulate conversation, and that's where can we really need to focus? Our Andrea's is audience on

early earned. Is it captured in some way that isn't consistent with reality, which would be a far our system, but are we also dealing with people checking not just themselves but each other, didn't intended to go here so quickly. But but this Idea of cancel culture that is so present in our society right now does not have to do with something that doesn't have to do with gaming, systems or taking unfair advantage of them, but rather with the incentive structure of twitter itself, the thinker spot on with them centres. You not. I think, if you were to do all this over a gun and remind the disciplines, are we were lacking in the company in the early days that I wish we would have understood and hired for, like a game, serious

just really understand the ramifications of tiny decisions we make, such as what happens with retweet verses retreat with common, and what happens when you put account next to the light button What does that mean? There has to behavioral economists to help us understand incentives, and then social scientists does disciplines that we lacked. That, I think, are to me would have been important in helping us think about not just building products but building something that people, you socially end and the ramifications of that meaning. If sir People were using this for more and more conversation for more more speech. This is less about building a product and more about how people interrelate with another people conversed with one another. But at You know to me these things tender. The pendulum swings

and while we do see a lot of what your labeling is cancer culture today, I do think it's important that, We continue to allow the space for people to express their asked in their history in context, because it, I think, context matter so much, because if we can express our we can learn from it and then we can really progressing. Improve as a culture where, as individuals, either. Your knowledge in a twitter has become a difficult place for context, it really depends on what part of twitter you look at. Eighty percent of Twitter is outside the United States. Eighty percent on Twitter doesn't really concern itself with what you're bringing up right now in politics in use twitter, my three different ways of using at the some of Richard are great because they hold power to account. Some are not because it doesn't allow for

and evolution of an individual or an institution or learning, but there are multiple twitters happening in parallel. Time and we in the? U S, and especially in the media, tend to focus on one small like sliver of it. That does have a real impact on the world, but you know from our company and servants perspective with, pay attention was something so much larger. Will we also have a leader in the United States engages in that small sliver in a very big way. Thus, Now I want to talk about all of us that we are starting to dabble in much greater depth. You seem to be saying that some very essential elements of twitter from from the start may contain flaws, have contained floss or turned out to be flaws. But I'd like to go back with you, the very beginning to under

and how it is that that we got here, and I want to understand what you thought you were making and what you actually have create? And so what did you imagine? Twitter was going to be when you created at for that matter. Why did you create it? What was it supposed to do? What I think twitter is unique and. Major us and I it wasn't something we really invented. It was something we discovered and we kept point the threat on it. In saying that we don't really have any specific content around what it should be or what it shouldn't be. We saw some opportunity in technology based on all of our backgrounds and experience, and we also kind of thrust into a world that had you not a country that there was just getting access to sms and we better to use it and immediately we felt it was incredible and that at the moment there

felt there was something there at least for us was you know we all went to various homes or dinner's her yoga sons or whatever was away from the office when it finally started working after two weeks, and we are, updating each other about what we're doing even though we weren't physically present with each other anymore. We fell together and it was this amazing feeling would be designing an update and potentially you're buzz. You know some of my friends pocket and they would take it out- they would understand in that moment immediately what I was going through. What I was thinking was very cool. It ten years, and I was brought into the moment. The momentum is happening. Doesnt attacks do that same thing, so It felt so exciting about the fact that the reach of this would be unconstrained. The executive of the rich was

constraint? It wasn't me choosing to send an update to these seven people. It was me riding on the wall and people following up this from that wall and the number of people following those updates could be infinite there is a change in the model so that there was a Carson. Anyone could cartoon ineffectively verses. Me selecting folks to receive a message. So are you understood early on that? The potential with can huge No, I I want it no service about it. I would say that it felt amazing and it felt electric and it felt so you know very powerful to us, but what really showed. Us twitter, where the people and how they used it and how they used a completely differently, then how we used it. So I want to talk about that. I want to talk about

as is the beginning of the transformation of twitter and the active tweet, and I see the start of that really as being the Arab Spring young people in the Middle EAST, using this new platform to call for change to document the calls for change to document. Government's response to those calls and ultimately to bring the change right and really alter the course of history, because governments during this period literally fell and and we see similar usage in the United States with black lives matter, and it felt like that development, in the usage of twitter was, was very celebrated pray, especially by progressive and it felt kind of noble. But this also represents in my recollection, the beginning of Twitter as a pre active agent in politics and that brought a lot of changes to the platform

quitting hyper polarization. America's political discourse starts to play out on twitter and it gets pretty nasty pretty quickly. There's harassment, there's name calling, there's threats. There's a cemetery! That racism and the idea that everybody who disagrees with me disgrace of you, you know that there is an evil idiot that becomes a pretty powerful sentiment on twitter and becomes a pair of a similar kind of quickly, and I know that I just tick through a lot there. So would you would you agree with that basic depiction of the transfer russian well, I think it's ignoring everything that type on the airline parallels raw listen harassment did not start after this polarization or the political dialogue coming on Twitter. It's been on the airline forever, and certainly folks, I need early days of twitter experiencing abuse, Tate harassment. It just wasn't acknowledged, unfortunately, by us in the early days enough or by

in other general population, general media. So the fact that there was an knowledge or even observation or stories about it doesn't mean I was happy it was, and it just wasn't being made visible enough and ignore enough. Are you saying that was a fundamental reality of of of human interaction or at least of human action, on line, as opposed to a result of the incentives and the structures twitter, but it certainly has always been part of the structure of the internet and some avoided. Incentivize is well forces not and is not to say that we did an incentive, is different ways or amplifying the behaviors that already existed. But digital communication has has always teen the sort of attack and and these sort of and so I want actually dig into what we mean when we talk about incentives and structures when it comes to incentives, what were they as far as you can

on twitter, and how did they play a role in both the popularity and eventually the trouble that we're talking about here on the platform? Well, I think Choices around showing how many people follow you and not, that number was boarded the big Alpha? Certainly and centralized me to make their number go up red or anyone like that's a number of the, for whatever reason this product thinks it important that inherently incentivize is people to grow. That number is quickly. As for the decisions remain around having a favorite button on a tree and shifting that are alike but

and that having a number associated with it to people wanting or constructing tweets dead, went viral and spread as quickly as possible through retreat numbers. The bigger those numbers as better it, and what was the problem with that? Specifically what happens when you incentivize likes and retreats? Well, I I and, as you know, the concrete behaviors people are writing headlines for people click so that eventually people see the ads behind. I click and does I really cannot write intention, verses, informing people about what's happening, and we certainly saw a lot of behaviors where people were constructing tweets just to get, does much spread as, Well then, we saw even more sophisticated attacks around that where people found out ways to game the system

in order to get more visibility and to get their message higher than someone else so yeah I mean it. I think that spread without necessarily substance is center. They can be can be dangerous right. So, coming back to this idea of new and whether that's possible or now swear document, whether its rewarded on twitter. Yeah- I mean you don't want, when I say things are, we we are experimenting with, is a small little feature where, if he retweet in article that you haven't actually even opened to look at to read. We will give you a notification that says a you haven't actually looked at this. Are you sure you spread it, because that is a factor for information to Dispread than might be misleading and and people to unknowingly participate in spreading misleading information. I think that there are people within ten

and then there's a lot of people who are just kind of seeing Things and sing a headline seeing a particular in saying, oh, my god and then spreading it without without knowing what it without knowing what tuna and in others on us to help. Why not just implement that? That's a pretty interesting idea? I guess I'm trying to imagine what the downside of that would be of making sure people of actually. So you're I see, and what it is, your your pointing to some of our biggest issues and the dawn of a company. Why not just learned something instead of think equally about it in and see what the ramifications are, and there are certainly positive. So we can imagine, but there's probably some negatives as well, and you know if, if everyone has access to this, never owners is using at how does that change the discourse? And maybe it's entirely

but maybe it's not maybe there's some underlying hidden assumptions that were making the we need to verify or things that we're not seeing new vectors of attack in factors of abuse. So it is stepping back in like thinking deeply about ever. Single small action that were taking and having a hypothesis like where we have with this particular feature, and then testing and seeing please I'm small scale and, as we gain confidence around a guess, watch at everyone You're trying to learn the lessons of twitter today, the oven You think about changing the consequences of that. One thing I want our company to be incredible at the one skill I want us to build. Is our capacity to learn it's the cycle of observe, learn and prove that if we can be incredible at that cycle, I'm confident will be

things no matter what challenges we're facing. If we become too rigid in coming up with an idea, we just discussed and saying just launching for the best we're going to become more relevant or dangerous, and we just can afford them. Would you agree in this might seem harsh that you have not been incredible about that and maybe not either especially good at it about learning About prevention, of observing learning changing in four, I would agree that we, we haven't been awesome, but I think we're getting better and better every single day, and I think that is on display publicly, especially in this past year, round everything that we ve learned and how we evolved or policies and of alter actions and enforcement, and I would say that the transparent,

he's a company house with the world right now is unique and something I am very proud of and goes much further than than must sit. So, let's talk about algorithms for a moment and how you're thinking about those? What about the intentional surfacing bite? What? Of particular types of messages, messages that tend to be hot emotional, to draw lots of eyeballs controversy. Should that have worked differently Wilson and point they deserve. Rhythms are constantly evolving. So it's not a past tense where we can change things, but a lot of the algorithms are, are built on how people engage with the content and simplest form. You know our people, retweeting does tweet. Are people replying to our people, liking it and if you stop there, then you get to.

A result where, in some of the most Frazier sore controversial tweets will naturally rise the top, because those are the things that people naturally click on our chair without thinking about it or reply to so there has to be some balancing effect to that. Ikey can just be a pure that signal it. Has it taken other signals at the most important thing was it was? It was at one point, basically a pure read of those signals. I I wasn't, you know fully press in all the decisions runs how those were constructed, a ridge but I'm sure it was because you have to start somewhere and then you you have to evolve. Based on what you learn, I think it does point two a few issues around our problems that we as a com and also industry need to do so for their way too much of a black box

They are not written in such a way that they express what criteria there using to make decisions even can express how they made a particular decision. Important, certainly when you consider a ranking over them and what you see verses where you don T, so we need to open up and be transparent around tower algorithms, work and and other used, and maybe even enable people to choose their own rhythms, to rank the content or to create their own arboretum's. To rank it to be that openness be pretty incredible so that we can all come to better solutions, because it affects the siting in such large ways

or they back this podcast, is supported by Doubleday publishers of true crimes and Miss minors the investigation of Donald Trump by CNN Legal analysed and New Yorker contributor, Jeffrey Tube in a riveting truly legal thriller, that reveals how chum got away clean from both the Mahler Inquiry and the impeachment trial, despite the mountain of facts against him, based on more than one, hundred interviews with all the key players in the drama? True crimes in misdemeanours is essential, pre election reading and its available wherever you buy books. Your can you give us a vision. Twitter for that for the future of twitter. Can you describe how its incentive, an algorithm indecision, war, criminals, they reward, and what that first, a twitter actually looks like us see it well,

What I believe were building is a conversation layer of the internet. I believe so fundamentally Andy promises of the internet, what it what it enables in our world and what I think Twitter represents is the conversation where of that and the public conversation later It took her and I think one of the things I get really excited about. As I look at the trends of technology. Our number one. The trends of translation technology and Tom translation and, I think, were we're moving from a world where a lot of people had to normalize around the top three languages in order to communicate with each other, such as english and spanish and Mandarin and given what were able to now build with translation technologies were actually able to realise a future where, when I come to a service like twitter, I can express myself in my own,

dialect, and anyone in the world can understand it in real time Bisbee but beyond the language informatics, though I wanna be super clear about this. To give us made aware that over a casual listener would understand, if I'm saying to you right now, for me and for many people, Twitter feels like a place where people go the sheer interracial care and to comment. Emotional and attention grabbing and often divisive messages. How do I describe that? An experience that, in three years in five years, what's fundamentally different about well or maybe it's him. Again, I think that the reason I talked about translation is because you have more voices and you have more people participating, and I think that is important. We don't have enough people pretty bidding in us and in a way that their comparable with sea on twitter to be a better. If I shall the whole world of more people absolutely

but even that would solve the civility question that what are you alone with him in I'm, not even using all possible announcing, solves it, but as we have more representation around the world, then it shifts in to another issue in another challenge is how do you focus on relevant, and what is relevant man what's in relevant into me and that's where the Algorithms come in and relevance can't just be. Did I write something that is ten transfer like written in a way that is meant to spread, but is it actually viable and relevant to a certain population or a certain aspects of the population? and there are going to be certain conversations that span communities and span nations in Spanish but the majority of them are not. The majority of them are going to be more localised. So I think you know- and I don't know what the timeframe areas but you'll see a twitter that,

as you know this, this blurring of a very localised conversation, whether that locality be cultural or Geography Bay at Genoa, topical? That was not the experience of Facebook in save me. In March, I mean there are places where social media has been expanded and people have deployed those social media service is in pretty horrible ways in ways that have been genocidal. So is Nepal Well, then, what we're talking about you're just spreads across the world because of the. If the fundamentals don't change about, What is shared Wyatt shared one are eyeballs are drawn to what the kind of fundamental of incentives a visa system are in place. I twitter, then, we just about to export it to other places. Is it more attention on those problems, top other Acknowledgement on those unfolding in real time in the public, important I'm, so that we can take knowledge so that more people can try to help solve them. Some people who may not-

had access because they don't understand it in the past, now understand it and can jump and are even if they're, not particularly in the location, I guess it depends on if you think twitter and I'm curious what you think is. Section of society or in amplifier or creator of divisive ascend polarization I just kind of chicken and egg thing all over again like, like any tool can be both with all these tools. Are we build all technologies? We We start using them in one way and we discover all these problems and then we address others, and we continue that is it. It is not unique to this time because back throughout our history, as as a civilization, can't pick any tool. And I wasn't used in some way in both positive in a negative, and the same is true for the because of the internet by the regional mask in that region. Russian is all I want to know how you are.

Try to ensure that its that it's not but with right. How do you ensure, before you grow again globally, that you ve solved kind of the route problem and what does that algorithm look like. I think this is the wrong way to think about that. There's one solution. The third, I only heard you really say that the solution was growth and translations What I really want to be sure I give you a chance and that we understand what you see is if it's not just one solution may be a very clear specific set of solutions. It is just a constant turned to me: it's a constant integration. It's a constant push to bestow. Ahead of how people might utilizes in a negative way address and then see, new potential use cases that are negative if we try to develop a perfect system that song, the problem. Could on quote we're just gonna get a wrong and it's going to evolve passage

China is often in that way. In so many different cases I wanted just get an example for you beyond the experiment, you're running on making sure people have opened articles before sharing how you might keep iterating for good underwear. I may lead to terrorism. But one example is another experiment that we run on Now we're running witches for any particular article that is shared. You might see one point of view in this direction. Another point of view. This is slightly different. Point of view that is completely different. Just to show I'm gonna break through some the bubbles, the we there we tended actually build, because I think that the hope and the hypothesis that- you might see these different takes in my incentivize. You too, like really dig deep into the article, actually watch the video that's being shared, so you can have you know your and inform point of view and share your opinion

as well, and the more of that variety and diverse perspective we have in a week we get to better because one thing you have done that we haven't talked about a lot here is applied a layer of kind of fact, tracking and flagging of things that are not accurate and may have a significant public consequence. Russia, when it comes to something like the corona virus were as we're talking about your evolution from from growth, to a focus on questions of speech. I wonder: do care if groups by conservatives in the? U S feel like you have a bias against them. I'm in one of your appears Mark Zuckerberg does seem too about that quite a bit. Do you care of some meaningful percentage of Americans field? you are somehow

suppressing them. Censoring them as part of your interactions and your grace, I absolutely do carried by. I come from a very conservative state of Missouri we're a team lowest. My hometown is much more liberal, I'm so sorry basket of conservatism, and my dad is very much a conservative, so so I do care that we building a system that does not take our own bias into account, but feels fair and I think one way to show that is continue to be a lot more transparent around our decisions continue to be clear in our policies which we haven't been in the past and we haven't been trend around our actions in the lie behind it. I think that brings us naturally to present Trump and his own use of

her in this, perhaps no one who is better grasped, the incentives of twitter and how to exploit them than Donald Trump. I went sat in his office with them before he was present and he talked to me about how savvy a user of twitter. He wasn't it and he's turned out to be very savvy about it. Would you agree with that mean that Donald Trump is one of the most deaf to users of of this platform you ve created a he's. He's duffer used the term to gratify turn around and say it is not, however, the moors because This is just really a question of like what your what your goals are, I would say like has his usage tend to be consistent. He started in a particular way and not has remained sustained through today, but it gets something. Is he he's taken advantage of? The existing incentive structure does not feel right and it continues to the kind of use it. Managing and enter given the emotional quality of his tweets

suggested twitter is still very much rewarding those incentives. How would you haven't heard you search reward? Well, if reverses versus society, rewarding that ever says in other media can't say pointing the cameras on on that and putting all, attention on that my hours, people using twitter different from the approach that we're seeing elsewhere. I believe that was a rhetorical question, but tv is a mediated, somewhat mediated for demand for them. Part until very recently, present want to say something that contain misinformation that contained an outright lie that the judge, a name that x a racist sentiment that pretty much was his to do on your platform without any real layer or mediation, and they got tons and tons and tons of retreats and pick up an adventure

well, you're, completely ignoring the layer of people who push back on anyone who took a tweet or reply to it or spread it with a correction to their followers in and to have a certain terms so that there is radiation, but it's a question of the people doing the mediation verses, centralized media, doing it to your dear you're right there. And again like a lot of our policies and focus in this took her area are really Costa, like the velocity and the spread of formation and the gaming of these systems, and where this might have harm. If people were to see it and take it out of context a week, we did label tweets of his tat. We

could be harmful because they may have lead people to believe that they were registered about when, in fact, they weren't and we don't take the tweets down. We appended them with annotated them. With information. As to the facts expressed by the various institutions, there were doing the work around registering voters. So I think it's important that we do recognise number one but these annotations are happening by the crowd in real time all the time, and never to their particular areas, such as voter suppression, an election integrity that we should also take action upon and we should make our policy as tight as possible

We should make those interventions as infrequent as possible, but the reality is they have to be there. Are you prepared to ban Donald Trump from Twitter if you feel that he has repeatedly violated the rules? your terms of service, and I ask this because you have been certain figures from Twitter, the most famous being Alex Jones Oven for wars Could you also that he and violated your rules around abusive behaviour? So does Donald Trump break those rules, and by that I mean that because, like I said before, he attacks judges or he call Women dogs worry he's prince false or misleading information on a routine basis, so we independent of any particular account. We, we hold all accounts to the same rules, but you know a third particular egregious. Aspects of violations of returned the service. We want hesitate to take action on the accounts and use every tool that we have together with us are independent of the? U S, president.

Or a new leader around the world. We will take action if we'd, if we fail in us, sir. I know people resist, I pathetically specific when your position, but but sometimes they can be important and lets say that it is not more third- the fourth or fifth or sixth seventh, because this is gonna, be a very unusual election and president Trump takes to Twitter and declares that he is the winner. Even though that's not yet clear more accurate and in some ways our democratic system. At that moment going to be very severely tested and if he makes declaration on Twitter, what do you do? I guess I would look for opportunities to learn from the past. So do we not see some of this Play out way back during Gore and Bush in Florida in terms of being confused, as to what the Unstayed around what the election was in an end that involved so look, for lessons and and history and work with our peers and

civil society that to really understand what's going on and then make an informed decision. But, as you said it, it's it's a hypothetical that the we you know I just needed a lot more about terms are like the integrity of the conversation around the election and what that means, and what that looks like an This is our number one focus area for health of the public conversation in this country. Is the conversation around elections, and you will see us continue to evolve our policy to protect the integrity of the of the conversation around Randal actions. Listening to you talk to. You are very measured: You are calm, your careful and you're the ceo of a platform that it in its current form thrives on emotion, that's notorious for elevating the most, as we said kind of hot since national charged views

A colleague of ours, anticipating as competition, can of knowing your tone joke that if You tweet something that sounds like Jack Dorsey, it probably to all that well on twitter and and honestly Leslie Twitter doesn't seem like you exactly you don't they seem like twitter so too, like twitter right now. Do you like what it's become? Do you like it? What it is as it exists today, One view of twitter- and I think it's a very specific view- is us all focused on this reactionary emotional headline. Click bait tweets are not just not reality of the majority of our usage in the world, and not that is important to focus on news in politics and in how the changes, the discourse and not those are important to help do everything that we can to fix it. But I think that

to do that is, is to listen and to use the tool in such a way that, like we, can really understand how society is evolving. How technology is evolving, that we can utilise too to help these problems and that in the first place so yeah, I'm not. I don't. I don't use twitter to get us, spread as possible? Why are user to listen and terms in and understands our world my world myself, Altima. But, if twitter, doesn't change meaningfully from its current form? Does it remain deeply thought? It would be sorry for us not to change tour So, yes, it would be a you would. You did should become irrelevant if it doesn't change, if it doesn't come, say evolve and if it doesnt recognise gaps and opportunities to to to get better. So absolutely.

The idea that we would all that that irrelevance not Cherkis project. Thank you very much. We appreciate your time. Thank you thanks for doing it. Thank you so much will they back,

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