For the New York Times. I'm likeable borrow this day over the weekend The House of Representatives past President Biden, forest major piece of legislation, a mess stimulus package designed to end the pandemic askew the economy today as the package move to the Senate. I spoke with my colleague Jim tankers about what actually, in it and the partisan debate, has erupted over its size and ambition. It's Tuesday morning, second germ sir,

however, I am well congratulations on your new assigned to the White House bead. Thank you. It's exciting it, sir. So little crazy it's interesting you're. Now a White House reporter who happens to be an economic specialist. Yes so are you kind of like the economic white reporter? That's an oversimplification. I think it's yeah. I think that that is very much true. I am basically doing my old job, but in the White House, but then also some new things in the White House. That sounds like Joe by saying I'm doing a new job right in the White House in Urban, in the in the person Erasmus before like, I will be now same Jim New title Ericsson right, we'll keep us posted on it. I will

Since we are here to talk about a major new stimulus package, crafted by the blind administration passed by the House of Representatives that is about to be who on by the senate- but I think we should start by sincerely in ourselves in the history of stimulus packages passed by Congress since the beginning of the pandemic, and I believe that this would be major stimulus package number three correct. Yes, so the first plan was of fairly quick reaction by the end of March last year in twenty twenty as dependent was spreading and that provided more than two trillion dollars worth of assistance you, it was a huge band aid to the economy and the second one didn't come for quite some time. They didn't until December, when Democrats, who were ascendant, knowing Joe Biden had won the White House and Republicans came together a nine hundred billion dollar package to extend

Additional aid to the unemployed try to help people continue through the pandemic, and then here the third package, the Biden administration, comes along asking for what the administration hopes will be one last, dose of help, ok and in terms of size and scale. Does this package number three stack up against the first to you said that the first package was. Who trillion and the second was nearly petroleum. While the first package was the largest economic stability legislation in american history, and this is almost as big. This would be one point, nine trillion. So it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money And that raises the question: what exactly is inside it? What do you get for one point: nine trillion dollars. You get several things. First, you get a bunch of things that you might consider classes

stimulus things. We ve seen in stimulus bills before ways the government is sending money to people to try to help them by things that is headlined by direct checks to Americans. Fourteen hundred dollars per person in person in for people who earn up to seventy five thousand. There's a year so of you're a family of four that's fourteen hundred dollar, four for individual people yeah, if you're a failure for and your family earns less than a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, total you're. Looking at fifty six hundred dollars and checks right, you get aid too and local governments who have had to lay off a lot of workers and now with federal money, could higher those workers and avoid future lay offs. You also get more money for the unemployed, longer unemployment benefits and more money for food stamps and rental assistance sort of classic stimulus, literally stimulates the economy, it stimulates demand to stimulate the economy.

You also have money meant to unlock parts of the economy that currently are working the way they should be so there's money for vaccines and testing, which is meant to fight the virus, so that you can give people confidence to return to work They go back out and chop again. You have money to reopen schools and there's money for child care too, so that parents who have been four to stay home with their children and not be able to work, can go back to work and earn money and get the economy going. That way so this is non traditional stimulus, but stimulus uniquely suited to a pandemic procession yeah. Absolutely. This is sort of the money that you spend two to get this particular economy in this pandemic moment moving again and then, alas, group of provisions in the bill are things that Democrats have wanted and been working for for a law time did they think would be particularly helpful in this moment in the recovery, so that includes

A major expansion of some tax credits meant to fight child poverty for a year to help kids not go hungry or or go homeless. It also include an increase in the minimum wage ten dollars an hour federally by two thousand and twenty five, which is something progressives, have been pushing for four years and Democrats say you know what helped give workers to raise right now when so many workers are struggling with loss, and other problems in this recession and recovery that have disproportionately hurt low wage workers. Goddess of these would be long term. Structural changes to the american economy in the mould of Democrats and progressives Yes, that's what you're looking for you too, given the amount of ground that this package covers and its scale. What is the Biden Administrations case for what is their argument and best case scenario for passing this there?

you met from the president from the Treasury secretary, general yell and all the way down to white has economic aids. Is that it's much better to go really big right now in this moment than to go to small? We ve been here before when this nation had the great recession broken. Inherited two thousand and nine, I was ass when he was Vice President Joe Biden shepherded. Similar spilling two thousand nine. It was a big recovery package. Roughly. Eight hundred billion dollars I did everything I could to get past, including getting three Republicans to change their votes and vote for it, but it wasn't enough that was too small didn't mean all the needs of the economy that they do not want make that mistake again. They'd rather have too much then too little because the West, they learn from two dozen nine. Is it's hard to come back one more time once you ve gotten your first big bill as a new president

So there been quite explicit about this. They are okay with the idea that this might be too big. Bad is fine with them. Yes, what they say over and over and over at the risk of going to small, is much larger than the risk of going to beg and there they would much rather take the rest of the sense of being too much money. Then it's not enough fidget taken together what Would these provisions mean for a low income families in the United States with children. It would mean a lot ever be thousands of dollars per family. So you get money from the direct checks. If you are out of work, you get more money for unemployment insurance and you would get this expanded child tax credit, which is up to thirty six hunt. Dollars for the year for kids under six and three thousand dollars per year for kids under eighteen Columbia, university estimates that if all this was passed, it would cut child poverty in half.

In the United States, and that will be very meaningful accomplishment. Yeah engines, From the start, when this package was announced, its been pretty clear that congressional democrats have welcomed more or less as a right Democrats have remained really unified oversight of the overall scope of the bill, some does remains here or there over individual provisions, most notably, they changed the who is actually was eligible to get those direct payments, and they had a big debate between the Progressives Moderates in the party over the minimum wage and whether it should be raised to fifteen dollars an hour as part of the bill but for the most part they just hung tough. They found together and they said Joe Biden wants a big bill. We should give him a big bill and we should be pretty deferential too. He wants to spend the money within that bill now, Republicans not so much

Republicans. Do not think that the economy needs one point, nine trillion dollars in stimulus right now, and they in fact went to negotiate but Joe Biden, a group of republican senators. Ten of them went to negotiate with him shortly after he became president and they brought their own proposal, and it was six hundred dollar see. Let's talk about that number, because six hundred billion is not just smaller. Eight is a third as big a minute's much much smaller. Yet The Republicans had a real idea that by would negotiate with them. He made an opening bed they were gonna, make an opening bid. You mean the middle classes and start maybe they mean the middle, maybe not right, but that was their expectation. Joe Biden called for unity, we're going to make a bid and go negotiate. This dollar figure down significantly and that didn't it divine administration, basically said we are willing to negotiate in

The realm of what we think is necessary, which is basically pretty close to one point: nine trillion, and so that left them very far apart. Brain and my sins of the Democrats and the President have basically said. Thank you. Much freer six hundred billion our proposal. We really like our one Nine trillion dollar proposal and we're gonna go and on our own and usually that- would be kind of fatal for a bill. You need sixty votes in the Senate to pass almost anything because of filibuster record in this case. Democrats are employing kind of especial work around called budget reconciliation. The same process used to pass the tax cuts under President Trump. In twenty seventeen and essentially what it does is. It allows certain bills that deal with taxes.

In spending to pass with just fifty one votes. In this case. For the Democrats, all fifty Democrats in the chamber, plus the vice president, Kabila Harris breaking the time, got it and they think they can pull it off. But, of course that would mean not having any report in supporting this giant stimulus package right. They could do without any Republicans if every we'll Democrat hangs together jump. This is a pretty historic thing to pass on a party line vote one point: nine trillion dollars an economic stimulus, but that's the plan that appears to be the plan and there are still some hope. The Democrats have that of Europe.

Against by join. But this is really a Democrats are gonna do with their way. They're gonna do with their votes and they are inviting Republicans to get on board or direct back Verizon designed five g to make the things we do every day better. With the coverage of five g nationwide, millions of people can now work, listen and stream and varieties in five g quality and in parts of many cities Verizon has alter white band. The fast this five g in the world. This is the five g that spelt for you. This is five g built right. Only from Verizon five g Alger wide available. Only in parts of select cities, five g nationwide available in twenty seven hundred plus cities and towns global claim. An open, single independent analysis should you

public, are not really influencing the course of this giant stimulus package, but if you're worth examining their critiques, which are many and our vote So where should we start with the republican objections? I it's hard to cover all the ground of how bad this bill is. I we should start with the term political and policy critiques that they have a lot within this bill is a star wish wishlist from the progressive. The idea that this is a liberal wish list with way too much money and that the economy doesn't need is not targeted to the needs of the recovery right now, but instead to just other priorities, Democrats have been wanting to push for a long time. Just the other day, divide and challenging Republicans show him the waste. What would you caught? President Biden said: how much time do you have? Mr President,.

For example, they say you know. Democrats have been wanting to raise the minimum wage for a long time, and here they are doing it at a time when Republicans worn it'll cost jobs. They also say that the Democrats or just trying to bail out blue states who have higher tax rates by giving them state and local aid, and they say things like. Even these expanded child tax credits are just a thing. Democrats have been pushing for a long time to fight poverty. But some Republicans call it welfare and say that doesn't belong in this sort of a bill. So, to summarize, the republican critique of these- provisions is that they are not required in an emerging. And they really there just democratic priorities that could debated and past outside of an emergency stimulus package and should be passed outside of an emergency stimulus package under would say that they shouldn't be passed at all. But yes, they are saying that the Democrats should not put a bunch of these provision.

Into an emergency single aspect and from your reporting is that a fair critique theirs? certainly some areas where you can make a very fair argument. That Democrats are targeting things to longstanding priorities. Again, the minimum wage is a great example, but even in some of the education spending, this congressional budget Office assesses the bill. It's like the score cheaper in Congress for where money is gonna go in, for example, they say a lot of money, for schools is not going to be spent likely over the next year to get schools reopened it. It might be used for teacher salaries for years to come, which Republicans you're calling up pay out to teachers. Unions in the next critique is the economic one, the Republican saying, the economics of this pillar way off, and what do they mean by that they mean first off that its and more money than the economy needs right now to get back on its feet, or did they get back to where it was before the pandemic head

But also that there is a risk to spending too much money and that risk is, you could cause inflation to go kind of wild across the economy. And that's gonna cost prices to rise across the economy very quickly, which is bad, ok, end almost one or one Jim. How does putting too much money into the economy, affect prices and make them go up. If you have a certain number of things being sold in the economy, goods and services and suddenly lot more money to buy those goods and services. Then there's only so many things to go around, and so people start bidding against each other, and the price of them goes up. There's only three hamburgers- and there are ten of us we all get a million dollars and we're hungry, suddenly the price of the there goes way up because we each one to eat this, will here before be known as the gym, grossly hamburger inflation lesson. I love it. Yes, is that Jimmy legitimate concern that this bill would cause inefficient b, on the financial

an economic sources you talk to Bob and warning about runaway inflation from government spending in recession, since that eighteen, seventy is when we really did have run away inflation. That was my country, but it just hasn't shown up in any of the times since then, including in the last crisis. Two thousand nine we're lots of warnings from economists that inflation was right around the corner and it just hasn't shown up. Inflation has been quite low, quickly over the last ten years or so so it's almost a boy crying wolf situation. The burden of proof is: on the people who are saying inflation is going to come really fast right now, because those, will have been wrong. A lot in recent history when they ve made similar warnings. So Jim the info lesion threat may be overstated, but I dont think we're overstating the depth of the opposition from Republicans to this stimulus bill, so that would make you think,

that their voters share. These concerns about the stimulus bill. Do they actually know polls show that the spill is widely popular. Recently we did pulling with the survey monkey and they found that seventy percent- Americans support the Biden Plan, including more than two and five Republicans, which is a lot for a bill pushed by a democratic president. This important grows when you look at individual core components like the direct checks, the Czechs get. Eighty percent overall approval and a majority of Republican say that there are important to them I really can't think of many things and American. My fair garner. Seventy percent approval in pause other than puppies and pizza. So that leave Republicans fighting so that their own constituents clearly want? and how to those Republicans answer for that with those constituents the way they are

is to say hey. We know people want help, but we don't think they want this bill. We think once we tell them more about what's in this bill, they'll see that it has too much extreme stuff that doesn't actually helped the economy get better faster. The way the people would want Now republicans are betting that over time they can drive down the support for this bill by making a bunch of political arguments against it because they believed the public want something more targeted, that's their favorite word to use, they think people want smaller amounts of spending. People don't want as much debt added to an already national than him. But the flip side of that bad is that they could be very much. The victims of Democrats saying. We were therefore the economy when it needed us toward the end of the pandemic and Republicans we're not they refuse to

and you know whether once you got your checks- were the ones who got you a bunch of very popular things, and that's the other part of this is that the individual components of this bill that many of the things republicans don't like are very popular. So there is some bipartisan appeal to sending people money and Republicans are fighting that now too ask a question that maybe on the minds of listeners about this moment in the pandemic and in the pandemic recession, which is that we ve started to turn a quarter Vaccinations are well under way. It feels like we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so is an argument to be made that a bill, this big, not necessary at this moment. Yes- and I share the case- is that if the parts of the bill work that are meant to speed up the end

Pandemic the vaccinations and the testing and everything that might actually make it less necessary to have the parts that are there to expand the safety net and extend it for a bunch of months. If the first The bill works. We might not actually even need to spend all of the money for the second part, because, hopefully more people will be going back to work and won't need unemployment benefits. More people are putting food on the table and don't needs. Benefits, etc. But on the other hand, if that recovery doesn't accelerate from A reason if we have new strains that spread more infections or for whatever reason it still hard to act, people. There is an insurance policy, which is that expansion of the safety net that we have several more months now of knowing that there will be help for vulnerable Americans who have lost jobs and are struggling to make rent and everything else that the bill is meant to address. So if it works, then we may not need all that money and if it doesn't there's an insurance policy here got to

This is a two trillion dollar insurance plan against the possibility that the recovery, not as fast or as thorough as everyone would like for it to be in the coming months. And, Some of that money won't get spent as in all insurance policies. If it's not needed right up The air is especially an insurance policy for people low income, end of the spectrum, people have lost their jobs, who have lost ours, who are struggling to make rent and put food on the table they are. There still really Harding right now and the tragic possibility would be that if aid gets cut off too soon, we could come very, very close to the end of the pandemic and see people start to fall. The cracks lose their homes go hungry into suffragist, just immense, now, distress, when true relief and recovery- is just right around the corner, as the economy hopefully brightened up again.

thank you, Jim repression. Thank you said it will take up the american rescue plan this week on one for New Democratic, then majority leader Chuck sure, said that the Senate would begin to leading the stimulus package in the coming days. I expect a hearty debate and some light nights but the american people sent us here with a job to do to help the country, through this moment of extraordinary challenge to end through action. The greatest health crisis our country has failed.

In a century and that's just what we are going to do we'll be right back. This podcast is supported by Spotify President Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen have a new podcast and right now you can listen to renegades born in the USA exclusively on Spotify in the podcast longtime friends, President Obama and Springsteen sit down to discuss the country, that's giving them both. Much conical the stories of its people and connect their own search for meaning truth and community with a larger story of America, listen free only on Spotify, here's what else you need tenor day. A new study has

and that the high rate of staff Turnover- U S, nursing homes likely contributed, the staggering number of Cologne a virus deaths inside the facilities over the past year. The study found that the average annual turnover at the countries more than fifteen thousand nursing homes, was one hundred twenty eight percent and as high as three hundred sat at some facilities, meaning that a huge number of workers left and were replaced threw out. The pandemic. Researchers found that turn over that high made it difficult to enforce health protocols at nursing homes and helped led to ramp and spread of the virus inside of it to these episode was produced by Stella Tab and then you'll be met. It was added it

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