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The Disappearance of a Saudi Journalist

2018-10-11

Saudi Arabia’s crown prince has promoted himself to the West as a reformer determined to create a more free and open society. That image is unraveling as a prominent Saudi journalist and dissident remains missing. Guest: Carlotta Gall, the Istanbul bureau chief of The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the New York Times are Michael barbaric. This is the day today Saudi Arabia's crown prince, has promoted himself to the west as a reform determined to create a more free and open society, how the disappearing of a journalist in Turkey is unravelling that in its first in October. Ok, so I was midday on Tuesday out over. The second is the leafy residential district in Istanbul, where some of the consulates aren't some nice hotels and this couple turns up these saudi arabian consulate and
Gentlemen, went in and his fiance say who's turkish state on the sidewalk. He handed both his cell phones. To her and he's going in to pick up a document so that they can get my Carlotta is the Istanbul direction for the times, so this was a saudi citizen. It turned out to be someone that a lot of us knew it was Jamal Cash Oghee. A famous veteran Journalist covering the Middle EAST is known for being a journalist for over thirty years from salad. There, but also being very well connected with The government and the royal family, so he worked as an adviser to Prince Turkey, have been Pfizer. Who was there
ass it at first in London and then Washington and then in Washington. He was literally a spokesman for the embassy. He was somebody people could call. So that's how professionally he became both a journalist but also someone very hooked in to help explain this obscure world of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. So it's like he occupied the space that doesn't really exist in the. U S: which is to be a loyalist too the government as well. As a respected journalist covering it and explaining it to the outside world. Think that's what you see in many other countries that I follow and living in countries that aren't fully democratic. I think in those societies Did you can be both, and so he was very useful to both his country, but also to many others to understand. Events of the Middle EAST and of salaries.
Change is coming to a kingdom one stuck firmly in the past too. Then we have new developments in Saudi Arabia. The new crown Prince Saudi Arabia is ushering in a wave of cultural change. We have Prince Mohammed, been Solomon, becoming the power in Saudi Arabia, his father's, the king, but he's the power behind the throne These young he's ambitious and he's keen to enact roof
arms and bring changes to Saudi Arabia. Women will soon be allowed to drive and the dreaded religious police are being reindeer. He's allowing women into sport stadiums for the first time and just step heed of saudi women is now joining the workforce. The prince said the country has become addicted to oil and that a small part of the state owned oil giant Aramco, we'll be privatized, and this is embraced by many people, many people in the west, but also by Jamal Cush Oghee. He is doing the most greatest favor for us and for the area number one. He is announcing a burden on corruption that is huge, steadily over time and to clean the last year. Jamal started to have cancer,
It's been called Saudi Arabia's game of thrones. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia has arrested dozens of Talkin officials from princess two ministers to officials in the armed forces. Dissent is silenced, calls for change our sense it and even Cities on social media can invite imprisonment and punishment. Free speech has come under increasing attack. Us is what husband semantic over the crown prince last year, several muslim creatures are imprisoned. Somehow Mademoiselle man jailed senior members of the royal family business Ban, and government officials on corruption. In charge is but the sweeping, I'm paying over, rests, spread to outspoken reformers, clerics and human rights activists, and so last year he left the country and went into self posed Exxon in Washington and then what we saw was his columns, which he wrote
global section of the Washington Post became increasingly critical of the prince. He has the account everything he is creating an environment of of of intimidation and Vive. Throated I'd be a silence as we speak today. There are thirty intellectuals undernourished jailed. Now nobody will they have to and criticise that informed alike and of the reforms that he was in acting which had the dark side, as he described the private companies. There were involving corruption, but we should give them to benefit over there that there had to be correct because the rolling of mid term corrupt those companies must survive under we'll system under more transparent system, he was increasingly outspoken and when he left the country and had this global platform through the Washington Post link, his voice was
increased enormously and that angered the government in Saudi Arabia. So, given all that, what was the initial suspicion about what had happened took a shaggy when he disappeared last Tuesday sighed the consulate, so the first we knew is that he didn't come out at the close of business. At four p m, but the feeling was that he was inside, and so the first thing we did was reach has fiance and his friends who were standing outside the concert until one in the morning that night? She went to the concert, and said what happened didn't come out and they said we're closed. There's no one here. She then cold. A friend of mine miles whose in the government, because he told her- if I don't come out, call this man and she called the police
and so for the police at first, it was in our disappeared, Nora, missing persons. The Saudis came out with this comment that, oh he laughed, he left. Soon after he arrived in, otherwise, you came for his meeting and had already left suggesting looked her fiance could have missed him and the police, the turkish police around every third and they have the cameras and they had already checked for cameras, and they were adamant that here not emerged from the consulates. So I think, as you know, in those first hours, his friends were just going through every scenario, but the great question was: why would the saudi consulate detain him prevent him from leaving, especially at the end of the day, so Wednesday evening. I happen to be talking,
some government officials, one of whom is security, Fisher and cause. I asked them about this case, I'm working on it and one of them slightly casually. He says to me, will you I'd be dead, and, although John I should put there is I I dismissed it why? Colleagues, here said is it was information that he knew he was just trying out there as it could be in so it took us. Couple more days where everyone was worried about. Where was he and was increasing demands to tell him his whereabouts- and it was only by the end of that weak Friday that we actually got turkish officials telling us that they feared he was dead. The mystery deepens tonight over the fate of Jamal Cush Yogi. This is a bizarre and disturbing story. His friends fear the worst dune, dhahran costs lacking, says turkish officials told him how shall do was killed at the consulate. Turkish officials have told.
And what they believe has showed she was murdered inside the consulate, but so far they provided no evidence to back that claim up. So this was the difficulty for us reporting the story there is no proof we would just relying on turkish officials telling us things and we couldn't farm up what they were telling us and them after the weekend, suddenly the floodgates opened. So it turns out that to private jet planes from Saudi Arabia flew in that morning, carrying fifteen saudi officials and crew and They arrive at different times and they drive to the consulate, the Saudi considered, where that same day, Jamal cataloguing went in for his meeting, and so we ve had slow
I had the privilege of the cars driving has been revealed that number plates, but more important. The details of the arrival of the jets, and, what's even more strange, is that they left the same day They brought in these fifteen Saudi Arabia and they all went for consular. They also checked into hotels and they left the same day so steadily we got more information and it became clear that they came in to teams and the turkish officials started, describing them as a hit squad. They came with boxes and suitcase They also went to the bizarre and bought more suitcases on my way in, and then they went into the consulate at some stage in the afternoon they left the consulate, went to the airport and flew away.
But there's more that's coming out on one of the details, which is gory. Is that among the equipment, fifteen sowed is brought in with them was a bone saw soul. The acumen some of information is pointing to the theory you put forward by some turkish officials that he was killed Within a couple of hours of entering the consulate and dismembered and taken from the consulate in suitcases or. Since that were loaded and the cause all them. Nation that you're describing since could show he disappeared inside the consulate came from the Turkish a government that has long had a rivalry, a complicated regional relationship with Saudi Arabia. So is there any reason to be sceptical of this account being made for what happened inside this outcome
you. Of course we should be skeptical and intelligence officials or security officials and diplomats. We know are often careless with the truth, so we have to offer But one of the most compelling answers to that is where is America. Surely he didn't turn up. He didn't come back to his fiance. This is I think, makes us think at least listen to the turkish story and now that they are releasing the details of the Saudis who on that day and journalists are already being able to corroborate the movement of these private jets that came in and am left again, so we're all piecing together. But the fundamental question remains is: where is tomorrow? Surely in the sound is don't have an answer to that call. You told us that Mohammedan Solomon has been determined to portray himself as a reform or to the west as somebody who,
trying to open up Saudi Arabia and bring it in line with the western world? It feels like this alleged murderer of GMO. Show if it proven that Saudi Arabia was behind it, it would seem. Can almost wilfully reckless reinforcement of the darker reputation Mohammed been Solomon in a way that would very much tarnish his reputation all over the west. So why would he ever do it. I mean yes, you are completely right. It looks like a dog, unbalanced reaction that an excessive way to silence a critic who was in an invaluable, but the critic he's not an enemy, but I thank you after then also always remember that lesson of understanding the Middle EAST or other foreign countries in their own time. And the way I read it is someone
mohammed- been salmon- is still consolidating his power, but also showing his enemies or his rivals? What he's made of, and in fact they ve done quite overt action, not covering their tracks very much, so they were showing that there will be, a signal and therefore I think, sending a direct message to, other exiles, other critics, but also to the turkish government that this is what we can do and this is who we are- and so I think it is an expression of his power- maybe guided, but I think he intended to send a message of great strength and great cruelty, but the risk that was taken here is that it tests the tall heads of that country, Turkey and the rest of the entire world. That cares about the question of sovereignty and so I wonder what those countries,
What are they willing to tolerate from Saudi Arabia right now? Turkey is acting actually quite cautiously, their releasing always information because they want to support in the west. Behind them. So I think that shows- the power of Saudi Arabia, countries careful not to upset them because of their wealth and their power and their importance in the Middle EAST, and I think for some governments they become deeply and, solved in backing Mohammed been saw a man, and his reforms are not least, the administration of President Trump Yes, I would we certainly can we have a call into his wife. His wife wrote us a letter. And addressed to my wife and myself, were incurred
act with her now and we want to bring into the white as its first said, situations very bad situation, and we want to get to the bottom of it, and what. Has been the reaction so far from the way it's been mooted so oh, I think, there's horror at the story, but if you notice, the politicians have been slow and are not saying to march I don't wanna make out, I want to say that I hope is not to find out who did it, but people saw him go in, but they didn't see him come out as they understand it and we're gonna take a closer look at. It is a terrible thing. I'd rather not say that the answer is yes. I think if this was a smaller, less important country, we would have had denunciations much more rapidly. I would have thought the public outrage at this story and
Horror, I mean it's really a horror movie that we are now understanding unfolded in this quiet leafy street of Istanbul. I think that my still carry a lot of weight with politicians. I think they're gonna have to hold prince. Milan had been Solomon at arm's length for a while, after this rather than but it already high level the highest level of say. Let me say this is the highest level, the imaginary. It's not worth more than one side. I think we will also see some careful diplomatic phrasing I do anyway, and I have always done him to be a fine man. We had a very good relationship, I'm not happy about this. We have to see what what
We have to see what happens. Nobody knows what happened yet they don't know over there, but it's a very serious situation and if something would take him, and probably in the end business as usual, thank you very much appreciated. Thank you on Wednesday evening, full members of the! U too looking into Democrats called for an investigation into Saudi Arabia's rule in the disappearance of Jamal Custodian. If that invest,
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and on Wednesday, the F B. I said that a chinese government's by had been extradited to the: U S on charges of espionage, marking the first time that a chinese and urgent official or fees, prosecution on american soil. The times reports that the spy has repeatedly sought to steal trades from american aviation companies. Was Lord to Belgium, a? U S outlined by federal agents in assisting are reluctant to try to rank threads but I would tell you that I think China in many ways represents the broadest most complicated most long term. Counter tells this threat we face.
The decision to bring the spy to the asked marks, a major escalation in the Trump administrations effort to crack down on Chinese, by which FBI director Christopher RE on Wednesday called a meeting threat to national security. Russia is in many ways fighting to stay relevant after the fall of the Soviet Union. Their fighting today's fight, China, is fighting tomorrow fight and the day after tomorrow and the day after that, and it affects every sector of our economy, every state in the country and just about every aspect of what we hold you're? So certainly it's a very significant camera helps
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Transcript generated on 2020-06-29.