Hi it's Michael this week. The daily is revisiting our favorite episodes of the year listening back and then hearing what happened in the time since the stories first ran today, we're going back to a conversation that first ran this summer. Two weeks after a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville Virginia turned violent and right after President Trump true, intense criticism. By saying there were quote some very fine people on both sides.

From the New York Times. I Michael barber. This is the deal today, Derek Black left in white nationalist movement. He was poised to help me betraying his family and friends in the process after he came to see it as a fringe on the margins and reprehensible to most Americans, which is why he has been shocked by the events of the past couple. It. August. Twenty said yeah. I was born into one of the most prominent whiteness, families and the country, like

father for lack of any other words. David do coup was married to my mother when, before I was born, and then my father started the largest white nationalist website, storm dry, the first Y know, what website on the internet and it has been the largest one, never sense, so I grew up with the leadership why nationalist movement all coming over to the house and when I got older, we'd, go to conferences and was my life Derek Black grew up in West Palm Beach Florida across the water, from the president's moral Logo Mansion and he used to drive past almost every day in a red pickup truck with a confederate flag sticker on the back window. His father is Don Black once a grand wizard of the KKK sunset, describing as a year you're kind of them. The first

I hold of american White Nationalism I did. I knew everybody knew everybody who is involved in it and I knew all the different organizations and I we expected that it would be my life's work to try to advances. I thought it was the right thing: how did you process these ideas of your godfather and your father and your mother and his entire movement as a child? Would his white nationalism through DE through the eyes of a child, its our really tight knit movement of people, is important to understand the contacts that and in my family, pioneering whiteness, was among. The web was my dad's goal. That was what

of him from the early nineties when at the beginning of the web and so growing up, we always had the latest computer and ass, this broad barrier, the first people on their neighbour? their broadband because if we had to give storm front running- and the technology in connecting people on on the website, long before social media and the way the web and set up now was his driving purpose? So we were connected everybody in the way nationals movement around the world, but I was little kid I would get on chat rooms in the evenings and I had friends and Australia who I would talk to because they were at certain our friends and Sir the who. I talk to you at a certain our agenda. And what would you be saying to each other the late. Ninety, those talking to white nationalist kid than he was explaining to me the american invasion of Serbia and how was tied to jewish control the American Military- well not,

conventional understanding of the: U S: military action, which was to spare people, genocide, absolutely started kids website on storm parameters website, and so from a time I was twelve caused. All I get death threats and email. So there's so you started your own kind of white nationalist website for children, yeah win, but not sure what age, maybe eleven or twelve or something I set up a pretty basic little web page on there and posted some essay but I was, writing at the time were actually and waterways that brings people together. I know it brought my family together. The fact that you have media coming over, as I went on tat newspapers which were usually coming over to talk to my dad and then you get these really bad stories about us, but we are all working towards cause. So the fact that everybody is so oppose

to something we know is so right really brought us together at this point in your life, when, when you re a young man and you saw an african American or you saw a jewish person. What was going through your mind? What kind of things were you were? You thinking are saying to herself. I think my family made a distinction between individuals and big groups that there's theirs Many opinions on those are my. Why nationals there are people who say you can't be friends with anyone is now I and my vanity generally about or cosmopolitan, although I think they ve got more extreme in the last couple of years pause and tell you that the notion of a cosmopolitan white nationalist diesel is a little tricky phenomena. Go with it when you zoom in on it, and it becomes

the whole world that you're viewing. Then all the different factions take on a bigger raw brain and so yeah think my valley- usually at least That'S- it was my deafening. My attitude by the time I got a college was that individuals are one day you talk to. People in anybody can be anything in their race not going to predict and individuals, life or anything about them. It's only when you're talking about millions of people that this becomes a defining aspect of humanity In reality, it is white supremacy, it's just that they wouldn't see it. That way, I never saw them way. My dad, I genuinely believe who Oh, very well does not believe that he is doing so, bad to other people that does not. Andrew, but a lot of his people dont Bali There are actually hurting other people by their policies. He instead believes

What did he's doing something for himself for white people? I believe that for white people to exist stand Van DEN have a country like Amerika was before nineteen. Fifty everybody needs to be the same color and be together because raises this real genetic thing that predicts all this stuff, like intelligence, quality and, and that raises a real that every raising the world should be separated, saying this? living as I do now. It sounds delusional, but it is something that is possible somebody to believe and think that it makes sense dear. Can you take me to

two thousand and eight and President Obama's election knows every how old you were at that moment, but do member where you are and what you were doing around their time- and this is a big one. Centre of Rocco bomber will carry the state of Virginia. This is an important win for Senator Obama to designate. I was nineteen and after same time as the Obama was heading towards winning the president's even the first delay and I had also submitted my name for this local republic and Executive Committee election, which he was county level, and I one that I got a sixty percent of the vote this little known, you senator only a few years ago, seamen coming out of nowhere, and now he will be the first african american president of DNA, states. This is a moment, so many people have been waiting for

I'm really excited, especially in Chicago. What's listening for a month after he won David Duke organize the conference for think it was the weekend after the election. And I went up there and it was pandemonium. I knew people who are sobbing and saying The now there's never gonna be another white president again and that the country is loss thing they had to make contingency plans and the king of why national leaders at the time was that Barack Obama has won, but now that he's one you're going to have a huge white backlash against EU so loud, and so it became this meeting to try to figure out how to make the movement bigger while he's

and there it is very, very well let Derek speak for himself here, but Derek has really made some progress. I've been speaking for years about how we ve got the soft underbelly of politics is available to us, and I've been preaching this. You know you ve gotta, go out there. Just go out, take both go to small actions, reef and knock on the door is reached. The peat people and Derek went out there. He did. He ran for the Republican, Executive committee of his pears and he won the election. I had just one in that little Republican possess, and so I was very encouraged that if we when around and told people all the white Nationalist talking points without necessarily saying that were white nationalist, that we could win elections, whether there, county things like that or maybe even larger ones. People here is Garrick Black.

Derek do a radio show launched on front? I don't know what do I'll James did. How many people here listen to storm for radio. My whole talk was the fact that you, run as Republicans and say things like we need to shut down immigration, we need to fight affirmative action. Meda in globalism, and you could win these positions, maybe as long as you didn't get out it s a white nationalists and get all the controversy that comes along with it, so the Republican Party, which had just lost a Brok Obama. Your argument was that it could be the vehicle for the mainstreaming of of white nationalism. Its supremacy year by my thinking at the time was that all these this backlash, which eventually did see of white people against having a black president, would

have to go into the Republican Party, because America to party system and the Republican Party would become the White People's party well you're my election happened last month and the newspaper local newspapers that I was a stain on the state, florida- and I don't think you realize how emotionally distressing it- is to be called a stain on state in when we got the then you have to come out here to college. So tell me about that in two thousand and ten, I moved across the state and started college at this little Limber Lars College in Florida, which was about three and a half hours from Home- and it was the first time that I had been lived away from home. Nobody knew who I was, and I did not volunteer who I was or anything about my background made friends hung With people and played my guitar on my balcony and my dorm, it was nice to come back from ass and be able to talk about the history your philosophy or or whatever other sub,

and be around other people, and so that hold more that I was being assessed and they're trying to live this two lives like. I done for years and welcome back to the problem. This is the second broadcast over my reprogram, I am their black under Bp Br thirteen. Forty, a m forget I'd, get and we'll get on in the morning and call into my dad's radio show and talk about whose and then go to and hang out with people who were radio, often strong social justice advocates and trying to live both of those lives was reading was terrifying, because I knew that one day somebody was gonna, take my name into Google all right. Let's bring on now my long time, family friend, from and from Europe David. Do they form a Louisiana representative and probably the biggest spokesman. The greatest spokesmen for white rights in the United States very online Algeria

where are to talk to you back and congratulations on your programme, and I look forward to your rightfully one there there was this one really memorable moment where I was in the cafeteria and talking to some people. I knew, and one of them discovered this website. Storm fraud wishes the site that my dad ran and that I had a kids page on and I had Run the internet radio on for years and years and opinions expressed on this programme are those of the host guest and collars and do not necessarily represent those of W. Could staff management advertisers, and I was still running while he was in school. Even though it and have as much time for it last night as they republican Executive Committee meeting in was armies. Downtown was bombed age. It is the big and a guy who is sitting across the table from me, found the Lord of the rings section the storm front website and showed every

in turn around and they can you believe these people are trying to blogger he's nerds enter into white nationalism. Isn't this insane, and head founded the Lord of the rings section, because when the movies came out, I got super into it and I figured you could probably get people who, like such a super white, myth, was a few of them are probably gonna, be turned on by nationalism and more mundane lay. I just wanted to talk about the movies, so I had found it that thing. Maybe in years earlier, and so this guy turned computer around a show, everybody the section and I just pretended like. I had never heard of the website before her. You just acted as if it didn't exist, and you had no yeah. So what you know? What is that? What a storm front- and so then

course. Inevitably, it happens. You're found out the student forum explodes and your shunned on campus for quite some time, but then you get an invitation, break tell me about that. I had a friend on Campbells who I had got into no during my first summit stir when nobody knew who I was I heard he was unobservant Jew who had she bought dinners pretty regularly. Whenever he was in town on Friday night and he would invite people of atheists and all her dolls. The different religions have just a nice dinner, and so we, actually invited me to wish of arts, and I knew him, and so I brought wine and waving, even after learning what he did about. Yeah yeah yeah aided he had read my posts on storm for I'm going back here see even the stuff when I was a teenager and he doubted He was gonna, convinced me of anything, and he just wanted to. Let me see a jewish coming,

anything so that if I was going to keep saying these anti semitic things. That at least I had seen real dues It was ultimately in private conversations with a person I met at this debate. Dinner's, who we were there. We will talk about things was not only why nationalism, but eventually white nationalism, I would say this is what I believe about IQ differences. I have twelve different studies that have been published over the years. Here's the journal away, the Nationalist journal, that's put this stuff together. I believe that this is true that race predicts IQ and there I q differences between raises and then they would come back with a hundred and If the more recent more well research studies explain to me how statistics works, if we would go back and forth until I would

to the end of that our USA. Yes, that actually make sense that does not altogether and now I'm gonna remove that from my ideological toolbox, but everything else is still there and we did that over the years two on one after another until I got to a point where I didn't believe it anymore, so as you in this friend are. Going around and around and your mind, is changing about this. What stood definitive moment where you make a decision and do something about it. Was really this letter over the summer of two thousand thirteen, and I send it to the southern Poverty LAW centre, which is an organism in my entire life that had been the enemy they

had come after my mother. They had constantly written articles about my father. They had tried to get his website taken down they had from. Then one of day one of the biggest opponents of my family for my entire life, turn to them. As somebody who would would disseminate this. This letter you, I did I turn to them to publish my letter, because I knew that there their intelligence report was the most widely read thing in the way nationalist world much more so than any idea. Why nationalist obligation. This was like the gossip mag there. As well as world turned to find out what everybody else was doing and by taking my letter on their website. I knew that everyone nationalist would see it every anti racist will hear about it? The audience was waterways, my own family, I wanted them to know that I am

While we believed- and I were systematically disbelieving each point And then I just send it and they published it and when it came out my dad called me up in the morning and said I I think I think you ve been hacked. I think your email was hackers. Somebody sent this letter while, as in Eden believe you didn't know, we hadn't talked about my beliefs, changing we ed it. First he was incredibly sad. I he called me. A day or maybe two days after I had written a letter, it was very the first time we had talks and first called ass q. Tell me I thought I had been hacked and it was just a sad moment. Where is that I've thought about it and it's really hurt. I mean I think it might now. Then I got idea to have a son. If this is the pains,

I come from it. He said that, He wondered whether it was a good idea to have had a son because of the shame he felt, because you had written that letter and rejected everything he stood for yeah and could understand it. He called again later that day and said I should have said that I'm sorry and there we started talking bit by bit I may I made the argument that family and political beliefs should not be the same thing and the same bang, and he came back at the time with the case that there is nothing in your life experience there. There would suggest that our family is is not a political family. We we believe these things. That is the basis of family the idea that you could be anti white nationalists

that wouldn't a factor here for your relationship to the family is not going to work. It was how we can act. That's that's what holds us together. His sons, unbelievably painful, was when's the last time you spoke of them nonsense, beef or Let's nonsense. All this, we'll be right back.

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The president he'll make sure that it stays remains a french movement and Just try to quietly fade away and never talk about this again in the future fine wants to say then, but I'll say and right now, the latter group you had a group on the other side that came judging it without a permanent, and they were very, very Ireland, Tuesday remarks took my breath away. You quality, left is the same as New Nazis, most people, all of those people excuse me: I've condemned NEO Nazis. I've condemned many different groups, but not all of those people were NEO Nazis. Believe me, not all of those people were white supremacist societies.

To begin with, I think it's very important understand from the perspective of National us. It's basically that definition of the movement that you're working against the establishment and that's what very white nationalist event is. It is very easy for the local people visions that condemn it, and you expect them to condemn it, and there is nothing else that you would dream might happen in. So that's the contact and all the usual condemnations came from everybody else, and I have a message to all the white supremacy in the Nazis who came into Charlottesville today go home.

You're not want equal in Congress and governors and mayors and white nationals white supremacist. They don't they dont them part of anybody's based there, not a part of this country, their part of hatred, their part of bigotry, their part of evil, and we need to stand up to that and so whether the present white supremacist from NEO Nazis, races who clocks clan members, you Howard and we condemn you, people who just wanted to get in their condemnation, because everybody knows it's extremely easy to condemn a white nationalist rally in then Saturday. It was weird that he didn't everybody took that as a huge victory. Their tweets people were commenting online thing like wow, that's very new but Tuesday I was sitting in a coffee shop, and I thought basically, the news from this was done when I read that he had come back.

And he had said there were. There were good people and the Lion Nationalist Rally and from Robert he salvaged their message. Washington was a slave owner was George Washington is live on so well, George, Washington Thou loses status. Are we going to take down she's me? Are we going to take down? We gotta think down statues to judge what we mean when you say he salvage their message that Thomas Jefferson, what do you think it Tom mischievous and you're like a good? Are we going to take down the search with this? He was a major slave owner. Now we get to take them The statue, the message that they were trying to get out was that people tearing down Robert E Lee statue is an assault on white culture. So if I think they're tearing down Robert E Lee statue is the wrong choice. Then,

These are your guidance that these are the but who are willing to say it, but then, in amidst all the violence in the chaos, I think that got lost you're not going to follow the people, even if you believe that and in his message saying that these were good people, because there fighting for something that a lot of people believe in he's salvaged the message that they wanted to spread, which is that, if you will this too, and maybe you're on the edge about whether this is the french movement or not. Donald Trump thinks we're fine. I don't think that the whole world reads it that way, within the White Nationals, movement and anyone who is thinking- maybe this might be meant for me suddenly being at that rally becomes a historical moment. What they wanted to do was blow apart that content, except to say that if using rarely statue should stay up, then there's no distinction but

when what you believe and what a white nationalist believes and it felt like he was agreeing with them. What do you think the impact of of that is having the president and you, in your words, salvage their message and and make all right what they were doing there in the broader sense. I think Tuesday was the most important moment in the history of the modern White nationalist movement. I mean it It is impossible to say what will happen in the future, may be nothing. But if you are on the fence about whether you should get involved in this. The stuff or not. The president's ok is the biggest thing that ever happened,

and so I dont want to be alarmist and say: oh, this is this: movement is gonna, take over the world, but it's more precarious. Than any point in my life on whether this thing as a movement, and as a dangerous ideology grow, because we don't seem to be as clear as we once more that we have to keep this The press that we cannot let this be, who we are. I usually have a set of normal reactions, and these interviews and my vocabulary kind of fails me a little bit. So I acknowledge that her now understand. In this weird position, these days, where I have background. I understand what people at these events and rallies are thinking but I also know what I know now my experiences and

I can see on one hand where something is horrifying and on the other, I'm looking added and wondering why they organise the event like that or why They were so kind of gauche to have swastika flags flying you weren't they worried about the messaging and then I come back and say what is happening in my country say. I have these two experiences and I have a lot of trouble. Reconciling them, sometimes as a try to deal with the events this week. I wonder Just how much the fact that in my family and other people I knew were willing to push to try to get people who were maybe on the fence or may be thought that they were being discriminated against or that their kids couldn't get into college, because affirmative action and trade Push them a little bit more and try to get them.

Little bit more angry. How much of a fact that had I am, I guess I am I right. It sounds like you, you ve, given some thought, though, dear dear honour, on us. It's something I think about every day. I think jerk. You know that I'm sure there are, there are still pictures of you online as child attending various far right, why nationalist white, supremacist conferences and come on in You are you're in it. I'm guessing you don't online and look at whose all that frequently. But what do you think when you look back on on the images and end that version of yourself I am always very conflicted that aid.

I now come to terms with myself, not too much filled with deep, shame all the time, As I don't know what else I could do, what wanted to do then more comfortable in what I really really wanted to do was just leave. Now say anything again disappear off the face of the earth. Pretend that I had never lived the life, well, I didn't know anything about why nationalism and never be heard from again, and it was a few more tough. Conversations that convinced me that that wasn't enough. It can't, because It actually done harm I try to follow the their beliefs that my father

whereas, if you look kind of sideways that, if you believe something you should do, if you think that there is a danger to our society, you should do something about it, and I dont want to be involved in this stuff, but I just- I try to offer contact, sometimes because I think that it's hard to understand what this movement is and how somebody can be a part of the movement and feel like their due something good, an and also offer that perspective on how you can realise your doing something very bad. It says that what you're saying is here we are still fall, your father's believes just not the way he he intended for you call them.

I don't know if he sees it that way, but sometimes I do tat. Thank you very much, president thanks, Michael predicament, earlier this month, Derek Black was in New York and visited the times to talk about the attention has received since this episode first ran so there were, and for good, interesting, opportune and people reached out and email me. One of the most memorable is the Obama foundation who listen to the daily some of their staff members in the daily and so their first event. They were coming together and bringing on these activists from around

the world, and they just had all these people had very impressive Reza maize, outrageously self, sacrificing and productive social endeavours like running orphanages. Org getting people out to vote or feeding the homeless and then I'd say well. I used advocate white nationalism and then Billy interviewed me, because I don't do that anymore and some That word after years of watching Obama from a distance and thinking of him as a originally. Something that was destroyed. Erika I have this quote in a magazine for when I was nineteen years old, saying I thought that his election, he's going to lead to a field? bring tyres and homeless people, originally ran for a little republican office large In response to him running for the presidency, I started a radio show

I ran seminars trying to help white nationalist Recruit, largely with rock Obama. As the backdrop. And so here I was the Obama Foundation summit sitting in a workshop and he walked in, and so I was sitting near the bag. There was an empty chair A sort of Wang Dan and said o can I do you mind if I sit and tolerate fine go ahead. And these are like thirty minutes- I was trying to pay mention the battle, but also wondering, if its acceptable, for me to have at one time talked about how this is the end of White America. After thirty minutes, he got up made some comments about how the panel I've been going and then walked away later on. In the weekend we met like he was meeting everybody else. They slept shoulder

shook hands and keep up the good work, and I just walked away absolutely battle. While in New York, Derek also joined his friend from college for supported tomorrow the unexpected relationships that formed in a week, He can't we return to a mosque in Fort Smith, Arkansas, I Michael, whereby

to avoid tough problems and shy away from a debate. Do you think uncertainty limits potential? Neither do we have a university of Chicago Booth, school of business. We believe in asking questions and questioning answers with campuses in Chicago London and Hong Kong. The booth MBA is for people who see challenges opportunities and what the skills to make positive change in any market anywhere in the world, ready to find your community search Chicago booth DOT Eddie you today to learn more.