From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbara, is the daily today. Every mass shooting in the U S is inevitably followed by our call for gun control. Never happens, the story behind why the legislation always fans and and our always wins, and a gun shop talks about putting military style weapons into hands of civilians. It's Wednesday October. Fourth, Robert Take me back to the early decades of the end what role did the National Rifle Association Play in american culture? Well, originally, its role in american culture was purely recreational.

Robert Raper has reported on the energy for the Times magazine founded in eighteen. Seventy one, equally as a means of teaching former union soldiers and how to be hunters have used. There firearms to eat into recreate. So it's it's a hunting group. Essentially there was a hunting, four basically a hundred and twenty years it was until the nineteen sixties there that began to change Social unrest that led to the gun, control, active nineteen, sixty eight, the ban and about Turkey we're, not deter, farming will not dissuade beating and killing about women, and young people will not burger rapid release them all manner. Not discouraged Why

a new job a key element in the roman ways. We need you immediately and it is also worth remembering, Michael during that period of the nineteen sixty worthy assassinations, John F Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, the notion of guns, be real agents of violence was a really resonant one. At that point in american life from Dallas Texas, they flash, apparently official President Kennedy died.

One p dot m central standard time to eastern standard time, some thirty eight minutes ago. Today we began to disarm the criminal and the careless and then say and it was in that atmosphere in nineteen sixty eight, the Congress and President Johnson acted to pass the gun, control legislation of ninety sixty eight and some of you may be interested in knowing really what this build, which employ was dumb stringent restrictions really for the first time on the ability of purchase firearms star. Murder, by mail order it bar. The interstate sale of all guns in the bullets that load them. It stopped sale of lethal weapons to those too young to bear their terrible responsibility. We have

a long way, we have made much progress, but not near enough. So how does the NRA as a gun club, mostly. Focus on hunting, get involved in them. What happened after that was there to one of its most active members. Congressmen John dangle I'd like to begin with. Congratulations to Mr Thomas staff with fresh began to sound the alarm that perhaps it would be even more restrictions coming down the pike so dear began to talk to other in our members and said: look we ve got to quit, acting just like sportsmen. If we're not careful our, arms and the ability of what firearms were able to have left will be severely curtailed. We need essentially to develop our own lobbying organization. We need to push back thanks to you, the members. Supporters of our aid,

no national gun law has passed this and an end. It was really under that climate that a letter light of lobbying organization of Our aim was founded a nineteen seventy five. It is not likely at this time that one well patch it we will stay Together showed the shoulder for what is right, and on top of that they were able to vote out the former leadership which was suspected of having gone soft the gun control issue more my old, mannered hunting oriented leadership of the hour. I were now stand very same year and replaced with an amendment absolute us who began to employ the language of the slippery slope if you're dead, I have my shot gun my built away from it are you could take the boat we liberals do. The one law would surely be followed by another law. You gonna. Do then after that takes lives. Hunting knife where's worthless,

and before you know it, essentially all guns would be collected and taken away from Americans, so it was really the first time in their dumb. We saw the in our. I start to develop its political muscle and in particular that that began to take place in nineteen. Eighty six minutes when it passed the gun, ownership, Protection ACT and the bill Pass, an in reconsideration is later. Again led by in our own member and influential congressmen. John Dingle, a democratic Michigan Congress set out to reverse. What they believed were a lot of the deleterious provisions in the nineteen sixty eight gun control, act and act. Protect firearms owners, constitutional rights, civil liberties and rights to privacy. So it will a win all the way around for the hour. I accept bone was thrown too gun control people. One thing was agreed to by the in our rights and that's the machine guns be banned.

There was the belief that look. This is such a win. Overall, we are getting so much in return that really no one's going to care that much about machine guns and yet it developed victim that people did hold a grudge again. The and our forgiving forgiving often bring for justice. One provision of the law on machine guns. Why was that such a big deal for people inside the honorary? If you accept purely on our own terms. They really do believe that the right to bear should not be abridged by any kind of legislation, and so The notion of compromise is one that they say should not exist to wither constitutionally sanction right right because from the outset, it seems easy to say, how are we debating background checks or selling two mentally ill people, because these seem to many people no brainer is as far as regulation goes but

they're saying at the general look. This is this is just a pure constitutional matter, right, well, they're, saying something else too Michael, which is that the people who are saying hey all we want to do or not trying to take away people's guns were just one. To be sensible with gun control legislation by, for example, closing loopholes and in background checks, the the given that the NRA will often make too. That is, let's take a closer look at the sincerity, of those individuals who are saying that this is really all they want to do, and it is this point: the inner right will point to legislate or setting. Democratic sender, Dian, fine sign from California who has set on more than one occasion that in fact, if she could muster the votes to ban firearms than she would do so, if I might pose a question to the senior senator from California, would she deem it consistent with the bill of rights

for Congress to engage in the same endeavour that we are contemplating doing with the second amendment in the context of the first or fourth amendment, namely Would you consider it constitutional for Congress to specify that the first amendment shall apply only to the following books and shall not apply to the books that Congress is deemed outside the protection? the Bill of rights, senator I've been on this committee for twenty years. I was a mayor for nine years I walked in. I saw people shot. I've looked at bodies that have been shot with these weapons. I seen the bullets that implode in sandy hook, youngsters were dismembered. Look there are other way, Hence I right words give them an inch. It feels like when the unerring sang and those who are trying to limit can be sold we'll take a mile we got a double down would give nothing, that's right, clear,

They are not interested in remediation, a particular problem, accepting So far as in their view, the problem is guns being in existence in America. This does not prohibit you used. The word prohibit it exempts too. And two hundred and seventy one weapons is a shout of for the people in the United States. The german either bazooka you they need, high powered weapons, military people used to killing close combat. I think so. So this seems like a good moment to talk about how the energy reacts when there are mass shootings, pretend These are spam of gun violence that could be the single biggest thread tutti an hour. I them likely time. You'd expect your organization to given edge yes, yeah well

There is a time honoured playbook by the and our right after mass shootings, and we ve seen this since I'm buying you in uniting ninety nine right that thing? In all me and my friend crispness out during lunch, we heard what sounded like firecrackers. So we looked over. We saw some guys with guns trip around the corner. He looked ass and then you search shoot, met us, and so we like building back of the year now with another update for your wanting Columbine high school, shooting and Littleton we're just doing us. Two young men, apparently dressed in long black trench codes, open fire about an hour and a half ago at a high school just outside of Denver and Littleton Colorado. At least three students have been injured and possibly as many as eight. We know that victims have been taken.

Now let me sooner corresponded Dan Abrams, who has just arrived in Littleton, then? What can you tell us here a sight to see so many swelling every day school event? Kids walking around Jim attire? You see students working out when their weight felt thought, but he alot of tears, perhaps now ago would up to the dimensions of this challenge, can prevent anything like this from happening again. The first They do is a seemingly nothing which is too Remained silent, our words and behaviour will be scrutinised more than ever this money, those who are hostile towards us will lie in wait. To seize on a sound bite out of context every searching for an embarrassing moment to ridicule. No, that any statement is probably not

Do any good could in fact more harm than good what they will be doing Instead, during that period, is checking to see what the political headwinds are hearing Whatever feedback they may be getting from, say, republican leaders. If they began to say to them. For example, this is gonna, be tough for us to just stay silent on. We may actually have to consider some. Dissuasion, then the inner I begins to go into action, but it does so quietly at first. It first step is to mount a membership, drive to send out newsletters saying your second amendment. Rights are under attack yet again by disingenuous Congress. That wants to take away. Firearms, never fight. If you can avoid it, but when you must fight, don't lose and when nothing less than freedom is at stake, we define we are millions of people just like you.

Were the longest standing civil rights organization. In the? U S: brow! Defenders of histories, patriots, protectors of a second amendment advocating the right to keep and their arms, advancing the shooting sports, the The upshot of this will be. There They will be able to recruit new members and, in turn, have more membership dues in their war chest and with this were chosen. Vacant Van she ate a lobbying campaign against dumb members of Congress, a first to do all that and to halt any legislation in its tracks and then, secondly, to bear equally threaten legislators who intend to vote for the legislation so that they will not do so and the senators generally themselves, convinced that it is a battle that they do not wish to fight, and they d say so on the record, but they have certainly said that to me on attributed

like that, the police can't get there in time how new defend yourself is up to you. It's your choice, but Mary Laundry voted to take away your gun rights. Vote, like your safety depends on it, defend your freedom, defeat Merryland drew the general political, the grief and is responsible for the content of this effort. Robert. Is this an actual playbook? What you're describing that the energy is using? His is more or less a codified strategy. Now it's not written down, but it's so understood and has been repeated over and over with such six, s beginning in ninety. Ninety nine, because after Columbine Bill Clinton tried to pass a background checks by bill, but it happened that the president was some still recovering from the Monica Lewinsky scandals and ninety ninety nine. He was really no match for the power, of the inner rain, and so whatever political capital he had just simply

and enough in the bin. The build never made it out of the sand and so that was a success for the energy and comes as you said, a strategy that the after every mass shooting going forward. Yes, very, intended to be the case after the shooting said Virginia attack in two thousand seven later after the two thousand twelve of new town massacre. All of these we're cases where there was a sentiment, particularly from the progressive side of despair, that surely now there would be sensible gun control listen and when it did not eventually, each time it did not. Eventually the legend of the inner as it were, began to grow their power seem to be that much more unassailable every obstacle that they were able to surmount so, ironically, as these mass shootings continue and in some ways become worse,

they strengthen the National Rifle Association, That's right, no one! In fact it's India's historically the case there, the Euro is membership, has gone down when there is some kind of easing moment for them a whether there galvanizing moment is a democratic president, the prospect of a democratic pro and or a shooting that spurs legislation largely by democratic legislators. So, yes, in a very twisted perverse sense, these kinds of Troy duties actually help grow the power of the IRA, go back to the nineteen sixty use and bring this full circle. An organisation that became politicized in the first place in response to this aspirations of these giant figures like Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy solidified power in response to these modern mass shootings Yes, the honor re, as we know it today really came.

To being as a direct the result of a once in Amerika and low Slayers attempts to do something about that violence before them the inner re was a quiet not so large organization mainly devoted to hunting the inner re, as we know it today, is an in our aid that was born out of the violence gun violence in America. Thank you. Robert will appreciate my pleasure, Michael why. Otherwise, Hey? Is this John yeah, hey it's Michael Barbara from the New York Times over

John can you tell me about your store? Maybe just describe it to me. It's about the gunshot yeah. We already had a number of shops in the area, so I decided I didn't want to sell the same thing they did, which was all hunting equipment, and so I start out by selling tactical equipment, Fifteen's are long range rifles. I mean so rifles to shoot a mile. I sold ten thousand dollar rifles. I thought bought out now, I felt the upper end. John Merkel owns a gun store in Roanoke Virginia that sells military style weapons. Sexy I mean there are like a beautiful woman, and I thought all that some are. Oh extraordinary, so use a question that I've been wondering about. Knowing that I would be talking to you,

I feel like I understand why people by hangings- and I also understand why people by hunting rifles to hunt but I think I don't understand as well why people, by these kind of higher powered gun, It sounds like you carry some of those weapons carried water, but Can you why why do people by that sort of gun at just a thought what do you have any idea? How much fun it is to take one out at one hundred, the two hundred three hundred or even bother guard and shoe so you're, describing or maybe you're describing, is kind of sport, not for honey. Not only for self defense, sport, but more for sport than for other reason. We simply have and with them. So when someone buys a gun like that that is that what you imagine there they're doing with it for the most part? Yes, John? What's the process

What, if I walk into a storm me Michael Barbara, have an eye by an assault rifle Or something like a machine gun, what happens when you haven't? We saw the personal. Yet we do you have any idea how much failed we blocked just because we refuse to sell again something that smell right. We get lots of man, people I mean. I'm waiting really squarely people we just felt so we dissident feel right. So but nothing other than a failing to go on and how often does not happen, weekly monthly wage, ridiculous. It said it literally party caught between them knowledge of what we turned down the sincere say, I pass the the the car John visually restaurant, do other under two background checks, ones federal. I won't stay that way, don't move until we hear them say yes,

and does not take some time to third, it doesn't for a third. It does It sounds like I could walk out with an assault rifle on the same day in fifteen minutes, because it but the weapon the weapons to no different than an ax. I may tell you use it. I thought it gonna. Let me I wish I hadn't woman commit suicide as she did it in our parking lot. Because she says she didn't want her. Children fodder did myself, but I didn't and didn't make any money on it. I just go bad for because the story she gave me she said people been movie and our neighbourhood there's gunfire at night. I'm scared to death leave my house, so I found a gun for that during a box. I am, I know I mean I lost money, broadly honour and cheese. One came back. Eleven lately

When I was there to ask the court that was there, she said: how do you operate? This gonna came in your work, though they shoulders went right outside commit suicide turns out. She was bipolar and was offer ms and is it does it? This is a difficult question. You may not think it's fair, but did you feel guilty after after she did? I know now. I wish he had not easily, no, because she would have done it anywhere and the funny thing was we were joking. We were laughing with each other. We should find the guy I do want to ask you about two thousand seven. Can you tell me about the gun that you sold on on March Thirteenth Nineteen yeah to some weaker talk to the court, and the court said that he was very quiet. Hardly wait, wait describing it was a difficult colleagues kid I was

let the by again he was twenty one, so eager bygone when you first hear about that. The shooting the Virginia texture Monday. Well, you gotta understand I'm proposing for the hope, from the whole thing the news from the very beginning what person was killed in the door, then there too, then a long long garrison like us along gap, and they were here. There's ten there's big to describe going up and keeping one guys gonna stop and to deal with. Eighty ever mediately Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco and powers. We didn't know it was us until eight. You have told us. It was another reason they knew is record. He kept the receipt in his back back. They brought their receipt directed at us across the board for, like all about received, he bought the gun and one box of practice. Ammo coming breaking my heart, Madame

a graduated from taking ninety ninety seven army on Acta can't believe it. It sounds like you was painful, for you too, to real was painful. It is terribly payable outer. You have no idea what they think that, because I have a gun, sharper gotta means Draken. Oversees people use it, I do also people use it to kill animals were eating, you don't kill, you, don't eat it and one shot one kill. I gave a killing for food, even though I I did everything I kill, I gave up hunting the cause of an incident where I did not kill dear on the first shot it took to their poor dear, had to suffer for ten minutes. I did want, doesn't want at my conscience,

at all. So I have no more honey you're describing a feeling of guilt when winter, when a living thing is shot like any living thing. Shy about about t that one, the people that took my class about again for me, save his wife life with his gun. There's just one stories I know so that negates some of the negative publicity then kill. It doesn't get reported something good with a guy doesn't get reported. I get the magazine company in our.

One. The pages in it is just nothing but people using gods to defend themselves or the people they love. I understand I understand what you're saying, which is the guns can be used to defend and protect as much as in your mind as they can be used to her and to damage, but does what happened at Virginia Tech way on your conscience, because you're a gunshot sold the gun to the shooter. Now, because the way the system is built, take us a beggar, bought it five miles from where I live. I dont know why pick that have no idea, but because he would have been ok by day by the two background checks. It would have been the same no matter.

He went he would get about. I got anywhere and did make aid efforts. We all would have let him have. It does not mean that there is something wrong with the backroom testing system with the law. It means there's something wrong with the people reporting to the background that the road to a great the job at that not problem Mozilla people are reporting these things he should be reported by at least four people because of his own heavier yes to the two teachers, an elite one student about people keep forgetting their all at all any more to do with just say one word to somebody carried to wait for the school and hid his name. Would a battle that do not sell to live. John after you went through that selling that Gun Euro shop to show, and then hearing the Virginia attack shooting, did you keep you're you're gone store open.

That something is done about whether to keep it open. I guess it open to. I had one fella drove from Northern Virginia for our drive for four hours to buy Gandhi, about ten miles from his house. So after that shooting the Virginia tech case. The gun? Sales actually go up at your shop factor of ten I want to ask you, John about the period since Virginia tack. Every time there is a mass shooting in there Our mass shootings now many times a year and that in the United States that take the examples of what happened in Orlando or what has happened in LAS Vegas. I want understand. What goes through your mind, anytime. I I hear about sharing fainting as yours

so different. Ah, the times reports that Stephen Paddock, the shooter, who killed at least fifty nine people in LAS Vegas on Sunday Night use multiple semi automatic rifles weapons fire a single round with each pull the trigger One of those rifles was out fitted with a device that would enable it to fire. Hundreds of rounds permanent. Here's what else you need to know on Tuesday the Supreme Court held opening arguments in the first case of its new session, a debate, report is in gerrymandering in Wisconsin where Republic,

and drew the states voting districts to give themselves a lopsided advantage in legislative elections during the hearing justice Anthony Kennedy. Consider the crucial vote in the case questions that indicated he could join the four more liberal justices in ruling that the ports can determine when lawmakers have gone too far in drawing those voted districts and Thank you very much. It was a great trip and a beautiful place after weeks of frustration about the pace of federal relief efforts, importer Rico, press, Trump spent four hours on the island on Tuesday and dry. Its residents directly every death is opera, but if you look at a real catastrophe like Katrina and you look at, the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died, and you look at what

happened here with really a storm that was just totally over there Nobody's ever seen anything like this, and what is your? What is your death camp as, if this moment, seven sixteen people certify sixteen people verses in the thousands? You can be very proud of all of your people. All of us Sixteen versus literally thousands of people trump spoke to the recovery work of the federal government. Now I ate value for recovered. You throw our budget a little ad aware and at once He handed out supplies tossing rules of paper towels into a crowd.

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