Hi, I'm Alexandra DE scientists and, along with David French, I host the ordered Liberty Podcast day and I break down the latest political news with a focus on the importance of culture and religion and american life. Are episodes are available twice a week and can be found on Itunes? Google play stature tune in or on national review online. all the little exploding cannons. All screaming Cairo wants all the scoop lives from the wash them. In the daily beast inflated into major news, all the speculation on the obsessive covered all the hysteria, all of it a tale told by an idiot that kid

came to nothing, not a next Nanda Ryan. Did she go talk, cargo trump didn't collude or coordinate with Russia will discuss all this and nothing else on this week's edition letters on which Larry and enjoyed, as always by the right honourable Charles, see W cook David. You want Like me, when I talk basketball, French and the notorious B D Micro Brendan Dirty Arthur the soon forthcoming book, my father. Left me, Ireland, please check it out and pre order it on Amazon. Here. Listening to a natural you podcast, if you listen, is podcast unnatural, you dot com. We are delighted to have you, but if the easier for you and better for us, if you made as part of your feet at Google, placed at your Itunes or to an end- and if you like what you hear here, please review us on Itunes. If you dont, like what you hear here, please forget, I said anything are sponsor this:

is the new movie unplanned more about that in due course so Michael. Finally, we have the Mulder report earliest Bilbil where's summary of it. It was delivered Friday and we got the bar letter on Sunday and The most notable part of it is the quote from the centre from the Mulder report. That says there is no evidence that Trump colluded or coordinated with the should campaign, and we discuss this again and again on this podcast and really had nothing to say about a clear can agreed now they didn't court? you didn't collude with a they're, not gonna, find that we always have to leave a little wiggle room was crazy, things happen, but it just this always seem come inherently unlikely and perhaps by Paypal,

for us, the idea of the Russians. Why would they need to coordinate with trumped, given that they have this stuff and then they released it via their cut out. So there is no need to coordinate with with the the Trump campaign and then, as you start saw, mowers, work is steadily became There are clear that there wasn't gonna be any collusion charges, because there are no collusion charges, but yet the media. Treated this like the the gargantuan smoking gun was always just over the horizon and they respond themselves up with these stories about mauler as to getting something with the assumption because he's investigating something that media can find something there? Is this bigger and bigger scandal, building on itself and the bubble burst yesterday at least, should have burst yesterday And you know it's funny along the way you had commentators like Jonathan New York magazine saying things like well. If Trump Trump is obviously guilty because he's not,

coordinating with the investigation, he's not cooperating to the votes. And possible use. He must have something to hide, as if everyone who is falsely accused of something must open every page of their life to there. Accusers, especially politically motivated ones, listen. This is like bulky, Bartok Amazon, perfect strangers. We should the dance of joy, thee, There is no collusion. Our president is not stooge of the Russians and with them thing is there are so many wanted able to see lots of people who deserve egg on their faces. Finally, get it Putting former CIA Doktor John Brennan, who I think is possibly the worst defender and the war whose insane pronouncements on this story threw out have if, if your comment, in our intelligence. Agencies isn't shaken by the fact that this man was

Not only leading the CIA but given direct permission to be Obama's, conscience in formulating a kill list You should really be the thinking about that today. I mean I feel, like a nineteen early night, Eighties, leftist, about the CIA. Now one thing it struck me is from the kind of debt renders the Russia conspiracy, including my friend, David from is making this argument. While you know ok, fine, the Russian store stole the data, the Russians coordinated to hack, it benefited tromp, you know. Basically, it was stolen put in trumps living room and there he didn't actually coordinate with the Russians to get it my my response to that is this: How in the world is it an argument that Hillary Clinton should be President, the fact that

daddy. Her emails were left, exposed and unsecured because of her vanity and were backed by the Russians and exposed, the public. That is not an argument for Hillary Clinton presidency. That is an argument against Hillary Clinton presidency. This woman is careless and was open to exposure blackmail, embarrassment, whatever soap so I dont understand I don't. You're, standing argument: why, Why is an argument that Donald Trump should not be president? It's it's the opposite. There are lots of arguments that Donald Trump shouldn't be president, but this isn't one of them so anyway, it is a fascinating moment I will be interested to see if there is a larger media reckoning about the story, but I think we're going to go through several more cycles of denial and bargaining. Other forms of grief in the next week Charlie, I

I've been surprised at just my own emotions around. This have been too so elated an atheist part so annoyed by this all long be couldn't let you know actually say this is a hundred percent nonsense even though in it it seemed to be nonsense. We finally have the verdict and we have the people in our public life that I have. That must have been the least respect for all with egg on their face. Yes, it would have been wrong to say it didn't happen, just as it was wrong to assume that it did. That doesn't mean, however, that the way it was covered wasn't appalling. There is a big difference between alleging that we don't know and jumping on every single minor detail, many of which turned out to be wrong as if they were smoking, gun proof of a new Watergate. The key point here, the key takeover.

Here is that there was no underlying crime and just ass. Everything negative fly from the assumption that there was an underlying crime. Now everything positive must flow from the exoneration. There was no trees There was no collusion, there was nothing and those have started for years with the conclusion. Need to re, evaluate their behaviour, I'm not sure they can. I keep seeing those who are the most invested in this saying, but the crimes he's get away with his crimes. They never thought that this was investigation to find out if something happened, they assumed something had happened and that we would just waiting for the proof for good example of this is Stacy Abrams noted election conspiracy, fairest, who set of human

it's a girl- and I quote until malice full report is released to the public. We may never know the extent to which Trump and his allies worked with Russia to alter the outcome of the two thousand sixteen election. So until the report that says that didn't happen is released. Won't know the extent to which that happened What you will see now is a general two slash ten from the press and from the Democratic Party's at the call. Finding here is not a big deal that this wasn't, what was being looked for, the we didn't just through two years of obsession over collusion and they should not be allowed to get away with that Every single time I went on tv last year right to talk about this garbage this Mccarthy I'd. Freak out over Russia? I think you did too. It was endless and in every single case, the argument, was that Trump may have

colluded with the Russians that he may be a traitor. I think, as part of the pretence that way, starting to see that this wasn't a big deal. We are seeing, it asked. Why was Trump so annoyed? After all, he was exonerated right and he wouldn't been exonerated. If we haven't had this instigation so crystallized, for example, says he should please, you should have just let it carry on which it is true a perverted sense, but it's also based on a date circular logic. If I were you the murder. I would be exonerate because another matter, but that would justify the accusation in the first place, and it wouldn't be fair to expect me to be relaxed about it, of course, Trump was annoyed its norm

to be annoyed. This wasn't some neutral background noise against which he could just carry on. As usual, the Democratic Party and many in the press used the very fact that was under investigation to say that he was a legitimate. They shouldn't be president. He shouldn't appoint any judges until the reporter included to attack him politically too, help them when the house to call him a traitor say that he had collapsed, with a foreign power. Of course, he was annoyed about that a young lady continue, which was the right thing to do. I think that you copy grudge him his irritation. I hope we can get out of this cycle which seems to be the norm now by which the left with help from the press. It did this with Cavanaugh. They did this with Covington. They did this with Trump. Accuses people of extraordinary things, things that have real world consequences and then get annoyed when those people

sanguine about it when they ve been exonerated and accuse them of pouncing or failing to unify so gave. The Stacey Abrams strategy seems to be like a forty eight hour or so. To our strategy, nor can it holds her for a wholesome over until we actually see or version of smaller ports, which seems pretty likely now bar and his confirmation hearings said he wanted to release as much information as possible You have the White House now saying trumps, totally, comparable them releasing ports are going to see much of this report. Charlie points out that there is no way in major some beauty on obstruction embarrassing stuff in there we don't know about yet, but on collusion is just it's gonna. Be a dry hole and somehow that sentence was like totally taken, half of contacts which is impossible. Yet it is inconceivable to me that there,

individual spinning that sentence right now I mean look at I'm I'm with you a hundred per cent. I expect that we will learn some things in the report that we didn't know before the report. I'm betting. It won't be that much to be honest because it's not as if Mahler was silent for the last two years and he filed indictments, he felt sentencing memos, I mean a picture emerged over the course of the last year, a half or so of what happened in tone. Sixteen and who did what and it actually was a to me to be a relatively complete picture with a few unanswered quite gender expected that the report will at least a stab at at at answering but idea. The idea that bar the attorney general view, as would right as it were, Fundamentally, Miss characterize this report for the sake of what three

is worth of dumping on twitter for days until you know, the real truth came out is just weird it's lunacy, but you know, I think what what has happened and it you know poor, probably explore this in various ways as the podcast unfolds, but the extent to which. The early reporting It's not even reporting the extent to which the rumours that the sort of steel dossier rumors could it around the mainstream media and just round the mainstream media informed and a lot of people's minds, the template for what actually happened. But even if it wasn't true in all respects, had sort of fundamentally mapped out. The reality, I think, is an under appreciated part of the story, and what Mahler was essentially doing, was proving up the dossier and- and I think, That was something that was a fundamental

starting effect in this process from the beginning and when one other thing it is Archibald to me just as an American that there would be people seemingly rooting for a conclusion that the President of the United States was an active participant with our chief geopolitical rival. In an effort to fundamentally render illegitimate a presidential election and to engineer his assent to the presidency. If that was true, if that true. It wouldn't just be a Watergate left political scandal. It would be one of the biggest. Scandals in the whole history of the United States and the EU. That some people were rooting for that work. Well, Two apparently wanting this to be true for the short term,

Political gain of trying to depose Donald Trump in making MIKE Pence President is it's just. You know it's just a symbol of how much this partisan political moment has corrupted people's minds couple things one wise in it Now, why dont mind we looking into how much of the steel, document was rushing different disinformation that was fed into into this british spy. Then circulated among our government use partially as the basis for opening an investigation into Trump lies in this russian interference, about which we should be having a total freak out and panic, and down and talking about the marshal the Supreme Court coming to press Rico, is against the Democratic Party. I mean

wait serious. You know who who is the target of russian disinformation right? I mean Russia's approached this stuff. When you look at how it acts in Kiev instants right so went when meddling in Ukraine's the Dumas politics. Russia doesn't even actually have to intervene. They just have to make one side believe it has intervened in it, and away and then that the political culture begins tearing itself apart. I mean that is almost exactly what happened. We have very little evidence that Russia Ray he was moving voters towards Donald Trump. We have these means, which, if you study, their actual impressions online dont do much compared to say that the twitter account over at the Federalist, Lena these were. The russian internet Research agency has really no power

whatsoever compared to our own. You know internet gestures fortune or whatever, and then you have the hacking which, as I said before, is not a good argument for why Hillary Clinton should be president that she's daddy in secure, so that that's what you but then we have had this two year. Years of people. Basically, accusing the press then, and his supporters of being complicit with russian Russian from a programme to do what elect a president that is now so far under pressure to be anti Russia that here increase sanctions thrown out more diplomats done wine see against russian interests. So what was the game there The game was only in the intensifying paranoia and partisan suspicion in the United States. I also agree with David. I dont think Russia's achieve geopolitical foe,

free with Obama's old statement. This is a gas station on the eurasian continent. It is a junior player compared to China and I'm not worried about it except I am worried about it in the sense of which I have written on in a the way that Russia has come to function as this kind of ghost in west. Civilization that haunts the you know an apple arms of the world and the other Madeleine Albright and other partisans of this quote liberal world order, where they think everything Russia does is some. Contributing to the unravelling of this world order and that we have to have this incredibly tight orthodoxy. That's imposed every european state, every american political actor, in which we are not allowed to disagree anymore, because disagreement somehow is pro russian descent so David david- I imagine you disagree- said have at it.

Oh come on with rushing urging the arrival, the Russia policy question yeah I mean I'd. Look. There is no question that that Russia's actions, make power it did. It is it's it's a Petros state, it's a corrupt Petros stay its economic power- is waning and meant by many measures. It just doesn't have the kind of economic staying power that the western democracies have but it also is a state that has been rapidly modernizing its military that has been proving the strength of its they and the power of its military in Syria in a way that has surprised even folks it I've talked to, followed Russia for a long time in the Pentagon. It is got a It has an ambition regarding diminishing the american role and influence in the world that is in many,

is fundamentally greater indifferent in degree in kind than China's ambition- and you know, I think, one of the things that we we need to remember is we have gotten used to over the years the sort of idea that action power is real. The proxy for power period and that the that military power is is fundamentally lesser in This is something that you saw and that's it also that there is this concept, a sort of moral power and in a win, Russia win an essentially just, took Crimea and just took it in an. But in kind of an modified old school new school fashion, with a simple Trajan of green men but old, school and that it had its boots just on the ground and said here we stand. If you want us to move, you're gonna have to physically move us one of the more pathetic things it

I saw a legal, the Obama administration. That time was what I believe is carries quote. That was something like all: we're gonna use twenty first century methods to impose and to pose an eighteen, century policy. Well, you know unless you're twenty first century methods involved actually physically moving an armed force off of territory. This twenty four century methods, we're gonna, be an effective, and I think that one of the things that that flat Putin has understood It is that there is still an enormous amount of strength in just sort of there exercise of military power, and that is very dangerous. It is something that keeps an awful lot of people who think about work and national security up at night, and- and I think that the in

and when you combine that- and I'm not minimizing China in, I think China's threat, but when you combine that with this consistent internet based and tell you no disruption operation in the consistent effort to try to inflame existing american tensions. You're talking about a country that has a it's a very real threat to our western alliance. It's a very Real it engages in a very real attempt to sort of diminish our role in the world of mesh. The then in this the very existence of the western alliance and with them we're Terry Power that, quite frankly, it hasn't had for a while that it has demonstrated on the world stage is worth reckoning with, and so I you know, I don't I think that China and Russia are sort of wine in one day, but I would still put Russia as a more direct and immediate threat to the interests of the United States. Ups creek I'll, be really quick in

for me and in Syria we will. The United States was using twenty first century methods, its so called people power strategy Of trying to in Ukraine empower Banda right fascists that one the joining the western alliance through NATO and other means in order to make it impossible for Russia to access one of its mean military, instant, naval, installation, and then in Syria you have a government that was lined with Russia that hosts one of its main naval installations and Howard by Sunni radicals funded through the Gulf WAR. Almost we wind a regime, change effort in two thousand and eleven kind of spasmodically. So we're talking about a country that is in a desperate scramble for a couple of tea naval bases, some of its view that it either has on that. Hide of the

ocean and on its on the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea, this isn't a desperate, grandma, we shouldn't confuse their desperate scramble for their last middle. You know some of their last military bases and resources, as us renewed strength, and I think it's foolish for us to make our political, orthodoxy in the west so stiff that every little domestic disputes in Macedonia, or in Montenegro becomes a worry that the whole western alliance is crumbling and I'm I'm desperately afraid that that is we're doing is we're saying if the wrong guys elected in Montenegro, which, by the way basically had a fifty one, forty eight election- that cited: their NATO membership if the wrong guys and a power, because the fifty one percent guys got a corrupt which they are

we're. Suddenly, in an emergency where article five or the whole western alliance is in jeopardy, I think that's too brittle too tight and just two paranoid at I would prefer it's a long off home, but I would prefer some day for Russia to be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in, but I dont know if we get there. Such failure of somehow is failing of me, as I am aware, no likelihood, lighted side, trout in it for pals substance had a that happened, but just one last thing that this the segment and then we will move on Michael that at the beginning there was referring to the DAS and how might have been a russian effort to your stokes patients and divisions in this country I have to say when some of the dossier obsesses began, being upset about the dossier ass kind of drawing my eyes, but slowly over tat, heavy can do they go yeah. You know actually to have a point here.

And I said this on twitter yesterday. I just I think. Congratulations are due to Molly Hemingway Chuck Ross too came Strauss two Byron York, who I wouldn't green, a surly that everything they written or everything they believe about this investigation, but their scepticism about this in the reporting they did from that standpoint were very valuable and a a sign of what more the media programme, or of a media should have taken to this, because the media approach it from an undermining perspective of hostility to don tromp and therefore believing the worst of of him, rather than as you major point today on the corner, pushing back ass David from aid, a cop, hence of scepticism that would have included how investigation started and was being conducted. I agree. Part of this is that the media is appalling and running

turning to the ground and rebuilding. If it is the case, that the Russians wanted to say this. Fraud within the United States and as I keep hearing is effective at doing so Then there is a certain irony in the fact that David from and Ben Smith, much more useful russian assets than Molly Hemingway, Environed York, David from and Ben Smith to me to have done precisely what the Russians wanted to do, where others, by being sceptical or by being silent, have tempt down and refuse to contribute. Two hysteria and political division, and I hope that those who see themselves as on the side of the angels will reflect on that. Also echo question on this

discussion to you. I am b d Wraith the damage to the media from this entire observed from zero to ten zero. It's a mere flesh wound. Ten things will never be the same. I it's It's a seven, maybe them in there were suddenly conservative reporters who did a good job, but there were- and I think, a lot of people that just back away from the story because they were afraid of where some of their colleagues were going with it. But it's been And you know that There are a lot of liberal readers. I think who are waking up to these screaming headlines in the New York Times in the Washington post. Thinking what happened? I was Isaac Lackey two thousand. Sixteen, action. In that regard, right, I was told how this was gonna go, and it's not going this way and other side. I think a lot of you lotta conservatives will to say you know

I'm not gonna believe anything with New York Times reports about Trump, because I'm not gonna, believe anything MSNBC says about Trump anymore, because they it sounds like he was going to prison and I think a lot of people also kept quiet about it. I mean I I to avoid a pining on this story too much for fear that I didn't know something and how it comes out knows just as ridiculous as you secretly thought it was, and what what is left I mean how much more egg on your face. Can there be differentiated tent? I going to say I want to be with anybody, say seven between seven and eight I mean, I think, there's a huge segment country right now. That, quite rightly, would say an awful lot of people in the media, her willing to believe essentially any thing right now negative about a Republican

or someone they perceive as a conservative or someone they perceive as a Trump supporter You cannot look at this in isolation from all of the other things that happened: Cavanaugh, Covington, etc. I do think that there is there's gonna, be it's about a southerner and ate and there's there's. There should be some serious reflection inside newsrooms right now, there absolutely should be one thing I do want to say, is I dont think that the that these exposure of that exposing emptiness a sort of one side of the Trump Russia conspiracy theory. Also means that other aspects of Trump Russia conspiracy theories are true. Also, there is a lot of de monster we fall stuff, it is being said about the inception of this. Investigation that its root in an awful lot of dot connecting conspiracy, theorizing and so the

idea that that the fact that the worst of laughs view about trump- is, been proven out. Does not then therefore mean that the worst of the rights view about the doors to the right. About the investigation is true and we have to make. I think we need to make that clear. Jacob. I think it's an aid, the damage to the media's reputations sit or by like Ruth Matt Tavi on this, but you asked as part of your question whether things will change. The sir is almost certainly now we ve already seen the Brian Stealth horizon of the media's reaction. Matthew Daoud was invited on television to discuss this, yet Rachel mad, I will not be fired from MSNBC normal joy. Red CNN has stopped updating its mule approach, page a page that was updated constantly. It was alive page since the news came in he hasn't been.

Dated once I, the media, will change its behaviour. I do think that the consequences to his reputation, bad I think it's an eight should be an eight. I should say I mean this is really bad when it really got going ass. Thinking there's nothing to this is to be the missing malaysian play story of politics over wasn't just ratings grabbed a couple weeks by one network. We everyone did. This for two years- and it turned out to be true as a practical man how much are they going reexamined themselves and operate differently very very little, but This just re confirms all the suspicions on the right and strengthens. Therefore, the media's foremost critic, Donald Trump, so for a move on. Let's hear some more from our sponsor this from carry Solomon and Chuck Councilman, the writers, co producers of

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unplanned film dot com for more information, unplanned once again in theatres this Friday, please everyone check it out, so David, the, as we briefly like to First Barbara discussion on the part of the more port that there's ambiguity around an will, learn more about when we actually see it. Is that the question of obstruction where, according to bar mauler, sets out facts and then dozen reach a legal collusion For me, that was much better and were the two Us Martinez sight of him place on this as much better from I feared I feared really at an aggressive, inventive interpretation of obstruction from more I think this is better than the alternative is a reference also in the bar letter to most of these efforts

is already being known, so you were talking about the firing of James Comin in things that were already a very public events or have already been reported, But it seems to me that this one was never really a strictly legal question. It was a political accountability, questions of the house when it can conclude he abuses, power unimpeachable. They could do that but the idea that this would be illegal offence. That would be in any way and title I always was very sceptical of that, and just given that there is no collusion, just the corrupt and tat its it's hard to see it. Maybe he feared some of the other things that have been revealed and that these side aspects of this investigation, like Michael Cohen, wishes, create real leap. Legal jeopardy with the southern district at and district of New York, but the reason he was so upset about this investigation fundamental, I believe, as does he knew, there wasn't collusion and he thought the whole thing was unfair, unfair and the media is obsessed with it for two years.

Yeah I mean on the obstruction point. I don't think there is for a ban in the public arena sufficient evidence to conclude that trunk absurd, to justice mean the closer we came. Was the discredited Buzzfeed report like if that report, had been true. That would have been. You know it is meeting the elements of the obstruction statute, it would have met elements of supporting perjury, so never seen in the public arena evidence sufficient to constitute obstruction of justice? Now in a look I think, as a prosecutor, what mother should have dinosaurs is say I decline. To recommend prosecution and I think that you then had been then you then say why don't exonerate, but we have to see what the exact exactly says, but I think that on the obstruction piece of it, very interesting to me that term. That bars lead goes out of his way to do two things.

An end. I think this is one. One of them has been overlooked a bit one. The one that people have rightly focused on is that he says there Traction evidence is mainly mostly based on information that was in the public domain. If that's the bulk of it, it's not obstruction. I mean I've written Andy Mccarthy's, written this at length. You I dont believe you can commit ends obstruction of just by firing, someone you have the constitutional power to fire and I don't think you commit obstruction to justice view lie to the public now line. The public is bad but lying the pub blind to the media is not obstruction of justice that we there aren't there case law on this point. I think the obstruction statute is a mass, but we do have go press it. Unless we have the precedent in the Clinton Nixon impeachment about what presidential obstruction would look like and we ve

Seen evidence in the public domain that matches that standard and so on, the bulk of it. It's completely understandable and then the second thing, I think, that's important so bar dimension, that it was his conclusion and the deputy attorney General Rosen steam has I bringing him into this is its import. The credibility that he has had since the beginning of this investigation, because he's the one who chose mauler he's the and who has done his best to protect the process. One of the things that I think was really important about. The initial reporting on this is that there was no effort, from the d o j to stop or or install any area of inquiry from Mahler now mainly Rubinstein doing so, bringing him into and say this isn't just my conclusion: the attorney general. This is also the deputy attorney general's conclusion. I think ads additional layer of credibility to it now, of course, were against.

The evidence in a little while, but I think when you add those things together, combined with the statement that this is mostly from the public domain. I've just never bought the idea that the path, legally available evidence indicated that Trump hadn't tractor Justice- I bought the idea that we can should investigate, but I did not by the idea that the evidence that we have now its public is evidence of obstruction. So Michael, what do you make of the the cries we'd? We now hear that the investigators not only to be investigated but potentially prosecuted. For this having gone down. You know, I think this I think the sooner we can wrap this embarrassing episode up the better for the country just in general. I do think there are questions that

If Republicans had a majority in the house, I'm sure we'd be looking at here, things about exactly how we know what was the basis on which each these charges were made in investigations launched and maybe we'd get some sort of embarrassing report. At the end, humiliates a few former intelligence agent, Ino agents and media people, and that that would well injustice good. If, if it were a propitious time to do it, it's not right now, so I don't think we should go nuts investigating. I dont, like I think it's beneath the dignity of United States to be dragged into what I turn before this kind of Kiev style politics. No you're the russian agent. No, you are the russian agent whoever's on the outside prosecuted. It's just I don't. I think that that is a dangerous road to go down and I've worried

Having gone as far down that road as we did, it was already a sign of the decline of american powering prestige and influence that Gaza. Chuck Schuman were throwing around these words I trader and on the floor of this so am I I don't I don't think we should go down that road, so try that one of them, cliches last couple years, as this word guard rails, but I do think it in this case. It, sir- and this is where the guard rail so to speak, were where it trump, even though he is justifiably p o it at this. Thing getting rolling? He also has a distorted and merit lists. View of the Justice Department is being there to protect, Jim, but between his political minders and his lawyers, you're talking out of various things, are talking down from various things. All he did was half and path invent and at one point apparently tell began to fire me

but again like Now- and I can do that and and Trump never followed up on it and then he ends. With his attorney general, who reasonable people and they're, not Us Eliza, but reasonable people on both sides, respect and you think has has a lot of credibility and judgment, as is his agee, so this investigation, even though I believe I never should have got started this form it reached conclusion without any interference, and has a guy in place to land the plane bill bar, whose very serious institutionalists the system worked and I think it's worth saying once again that although Trump has many shortcomings, he has not caused a crisis and we have see new descent into tyranny and, in fact, the far worse outcome here

Would be the one that so many seem to want and continue to want, which is evidence that Trump both. Colluded with a foreign power and then is guilty of some form of obstruction. Whatever trumps general shortcomings and there. Many many whenever they are. That would not be worth it to get rid of him to take him out of the White House. The shock of that behaviour be precipitation. Obey constitutional crisis would be far worse worse than Trump and trumps

floors, and I know we have a mixed audience sort of things I like the most about the show. I want to say something to the people who are more on the left than I am people who call themselves liberals. That is that in general, liberals self describe liberals have strong and I think, generally correct views on presumption of innocence, standards of evidence, the problems associated with getting people on secondary crimes such as obstruct when there's no underlying infraction in the first place, but here his instinct seem to have been muffled throughout, is not a good thing

that so many people have felt that trunk was such a threat that we should encourage the ideas. Jonathan shaded yesterday that the fifth amendment being invoked implies guilt. It is not a good thing that we are now seeing a an obsessive focus On obstruction, it's not a good thing that we are being told that, just because there is no evidence, something happened. That doesn't mean that it didn't. It is simply not worth it to try to get rid of this. President. Outside of the ballot box, the system works. The constitution works

Rule of law has been upheld, procedures that in any other circumstance most people who are gunning for Trump would cherish within the criminal justice. World worked, they are intact, and that is a good thing, because most people are not as powerful or as rich or is connected as Donald Trump and those who have been involved in this. I want a second thing about obstruction to. I am not greatly impressed ass, a rule by charges of obstruction or of secondary crimes or of process crimes, some of which I think realm actually into tyranny, and I have even less time oppresses crimes in this case, because the accused is the point, didn't, and you can't interrogate this area without examining the inherent absurdity of asking the executive branch to investigate it.

For ignoring that article. One gives that executive branch control over its own staff or During that there is no fourth branch of government, ultimately to move, as I imagine we're about to from a focus, on collusion to a focus on obstruction B. To make an argument that makes no sense that being that Trump didn't do anything wrong, but he find the guy who was destined to find out that he didn't do anything wrong which have uncovered would lead. Him being exonerated and and therefore what what I accept that legally one can obstruct justice without being guilty. But this is not a good road for a society that believes in India

you will your liberty to go down, and that applies to the President of the United States as much as it does an average guy on the street. You didn't wondering do now she's going pick up on, I think, Chart Charlie's. This is data from Charley was very important. The system worked and and that means- and I am thinking in the fullness now I do a book. I agree that idea. He led the way to investigate the Russian. In attempts to interfere in our election was through. An independent commission something not unlike say, nine. Eleven commission that was Gonna happen, it didn't happen, but the decision to point the special council decision, the d o j to keep its hands off all of the things I think were were? Why decisions, including who the who the deputy attorney general chow. Is to be believed, invested was a wise decision. I have

a little patience for the idea that the investing Asian itself was mentally illegitimate, like that, I'm firmly the trade Gouty king up that, even if you say that the steel dossier was corrupt from its inception, which I believe the steel dossier was correct from its inception. There were multiple reasons to investigate what happened here and there the IMF, the necessity for an investigation was there and, in the end, astrogation occurred now. I know that people can look at this. A vigil charging decision or that individual charging decision from Mahler in question it, but in the overall sweep of it. What occurred here was a professional prosecutor who did his work in an ethical man and reached conclusions that unless we open that report in it just looks crazy, which I can't imagine that reach conclusions at the american people should have confidence in it and in a

I'm when it feels like. We can't trust our public servants at a time when it feels like everything, is coming up. There are no standards, the only standards, Donley standards that exist or double standards. This I think, Charlie statement. The system work and I'm not a big? What about her kind of guy But I will note this for all of the attacks on the on the trunk d, o J. The trunk, the OJ handled this better than the Obama D, O J handled the Hillary Clinton investigations, because one thing that came out with very little notice in the days before this- this latest new cycle, were transcripts. Lisa, page interview transcripts it congressional interview transcripts, and she indicated- and this is something that has been emerging For while that the de Oj Obama D, O J leaned on the FBI in a way the trunk. The OJ did not lean on the special council to reach.

The conclusion that Hilary couldn't should not be prosecuted that she was grossly negligent and and that is something that needs to get more attention if we're going to talk about, norms is going to talk, values are going to talk about interfering in investigations, wiser, not more potential paid to what happened in deep, process of the investigation of Hillary Clinton. I know It's been relegated and relegated, but this is a moment when we're talking about norms and values and and look, I think, the Trump d o J can hold its head high at this moment. So Michael ex question to you, assuming tribe, is impeach rate. The percentage odds, obstruction of justice will be one of the charges. I'm still forty per cent, or something like that

What we know from the letter is that its inconclusive, or at least not worth pursuing according to the judgment of Robert ME, were in a case of no underlying crime, but if there are the forum comes out- and there are more embarrassing stories that we don't know about which I'm just leaving the possibility. That's out there. I don't think that's the case I could see, Democrats being walked into into this by their base, but but I still think that the chancellor impeachment Oh, I don't think Nancy close. He wants it. I dont think smart congressional Democrats want it and I just think we're getting to the point where the debates between democratic,

Mary Canada, for coming up soon enough that people just focus on twenty twenty Charles Cook is impeached. The percentage chances obstruction is one accounts. If he's in peace will be one of them, but he's not going to be imposed is simply not the basis there to do it and the democratic parties, control of the house and indeed prospects for twenty twenty are contingent upon keeping moderates on side the chance. Now that moderates will go along with an successful impeachment, DR ah close to zero in French I don't think he's going to be impeached, but if he was held out at five or ten percent chance that he's going to that he's impeached. But if he is there's about a ninety nine point, nine percent chance obstruction would be part of it. But I think the case for impeachment was

old below the waterline here at this point. At this point in the Democrats are smart. They just focus on twenty twenty. You know it It is if they dont have ammunition to argue that Trump has that The trumps team in Trump have made various acts of misconduct over the course of history we and during the campaign they make that cases and I still think the innovative principal instrument of accountability in american politics is the american voter and we're close and after twenty twenty two, where the Democrats challenge now is to convince the american people, that their choice is better than Donald Trump, and they should focus on that. So I think, if you're in peace it about twenty percent chance obstruction would be part of it. I think I have to come up with something else now and I I think it's unlikely,

that they will. So we ve been talking a lot about how we are right and are our belief that collusion was They nonsense story this something where I was wrong. I was fairly certain that democratic find a reason to impeach him, and I think it's just it's gotten much harder now so prudent Vondra last segment on This. I want to urge everyone out their pleas to sign up for an hour plus the digital. In service at national view, dot com get all content access to it. The print magazine or what is behind the mate meter pay war on the website. You can almost entirely ad free experience Yet the ability to comment which is the exclusive privilege of inner plus members be part of our Facebook group where there is Rigorous ongoing discussion about all these things were discussing and you get vited to Spain exclusively and calls and events we have

tomorrow, really excited about with our friend Ben Shapiro. I expect it to be the biggest call we ve had yet and we basically I started conversation with over the guest is very bad, If we, then we mediately go to questions from from our interposed members via our Facebook group. And we also have a meet up this week in Washington DC, were, writers and editors will just be hanging out at a bar with our and our plus member, if you remember, we should have that invite in your inbox Sophia in the DC area. We love You see, you add, hoisted up pints later on this week, so please if you're, not part of our plus yet get with. Program sign up. You can find out more at NASH, review, dot com, all sorts of pricing options, for you there I enter plus growing by leaps and bounds, and you and you don't Michael, he don't wanna be left out, nor must be left out

So, let's hit a little bit of the the politics of this choice, Early, what is this doing in your mind, to House Democrats was due to their case against Trump was a due to or for Trump that's a great question. It certainly liberates trump, not necessarily in a way that will help in every case, but it removes a sword hanging above his head. The Democrats have, as I said earlier, used this ass, a means by which, to suggest it worse or imply at best the trump is illegitimate that his victory was,

colon and that he shouldn't exercise the same powers that other presidents have exercised. That project ass off today ends if it doesn't end that project is now inefficient, if not pointless. Trump, therefore, will be able not only to point at the Democratic Party and to point. At the media ass his enemies to describe them, as which hunters Who argue that they peddled lies and that they have simply refuse to accept that he was elected president he will also be able to cost himself finally, ass, the undisputed chief executive of the federal government

and I do think around the margins that helps, and I think it helps within his own party, especially among representatives and senators who come from swing districts. That those who might consider backing him in forcing him fighting his agenda will no longer have to worry the back of their mind that the Mulder report is going to come back with evidence of pollution. That said, ass we discussed last week when talking about the primer is there is a chasm between primary vote? Isn't it Democratic Party and general election voters. There is also a chasm between. In primary elections in reality and that Stacy Abrams felt, for example, that it was a. Good idea this morning to pretend that we all know secretly

there was collusion and therefore port will demonstrate that that better rock felt empowered one day before the Mulder report came down and let us not pretend we didn't owner was coming. We didn't know exactly when, but a kind of surprise, better too much that it was imminent, that they felt empowered to do that they felt. That was a good idea, gives you some insight into the incentives here that remain within the base. Bases are not general electorates, in fact, they're, not necessarily reflective of parties as a whole. So I thank you all I see two tracks. I think he will see Nancy Policy and those with a broader view of the democratic parties. Fortunes backing off impeachment talk focusing less on Russia declining to say the president is illegitimate: Ali Shouldn, appoint judges or what you will I think you'll see more mainstream commentators focusing on other things, and this time

think around the fringes which I include as part of the primary constituency you will see some fairly unpleasant conspiracy theories popping and ass a result. Those aspirants who want to be their party standard bearer, indulging implicitly, if not explicitly, the idea that This was either a cover up or in some way in complete. So Michael, I think one political consequence of this and I leave to an earlier- is a strengthening of transportation within the party, and I think they were of are really truly hardcore, Anti Trump friends who expected or maybe more hoping for, worse from the Mulder report, and that would destabilized tromp within the party and open up space for real primary challenge, not just a bill. Weld kind of thing- and this seems really for those that possibility. Yeah and the timing of it is not propitious for them.

Either because it is very unlikely to be in major scandal or or something else right. On top of it Where are having a weirdly norm, dont Jake's, it don't ramming willing. I haven't weirdly normal huh, you know it's we're having wheedling normal time for trial period, not knowing how to rerecord this podcast later in the waste, because there could be some other legislators, fewer personnel changeover in others, less personnel change over there was at the very beginning whose less sense of chaos there's more sense than done trump. Italy, knows how he wants to approach the job, which was the case in his first six months or first year. So no, I don't expect the primary challenger it will enhance in it's a big republicanism. Irma treat this republican voters or country as a huge victory over the media, I think they give trump.

In a when New Gingrich electrified debate, audience by just attacking the media, almost like random away trump among base. Republicans is the Republican who is triumphing over the media. Consistently he's by Cavanaugh and Cabinet triumphed over what they saw. A media led attend Two scuttle the nomination Trump endure. Word than Mahler Investigation, he endured MSNBC, endured whatever they know the fire and fury books, etc. That lead people to think he was going to be brought down and he is triumphing and laughing at his enemies, and I just think that's going to play so well. With the base. The only argument that I think

would be strong against tramp in a Republican. Primary is the one that you know an culture would make which his you haven't put up a single brick on the border. I think, is very open open to that criticism, both from the left and the right that he just failed on his signature promise. I just don't think anyone will be suicidal enough to bring it to him from the right gave. What you think I think that it is absolutely true that his position is now solidified inert black and base. I think with him and be just said about hidden trump is being champion in there. Look in battle against the media. I think that's one thousand percent true. I think honestly, the to the two really key parts of affection like that, this sort of that a lot of voters feel towards him. I mean why it's based in that he beat Hillary Clinton when people thought that you know

was over that it was hopeless. That Clinton was another Clinton, was gonna, be in the White House that created a bond and then the ten. You too tat they continued war with the media creates another bond in this is a big victory in them. War, so I think you know that it's not just that it's not just that that Trump voters are still happy- it's not just at their happy with the economy or or happy with the defeat devices, something that caliphate something we haven't talked about, which we finalized over the weekend, which is a tremendous. It's a tremendous victory. A tremendous Ices still exists, but the defeat of the caliphate is still a tremendous victory That's not just that. It's also the for settling with domestic political foes, that he's really get out. So let's get us but that that commitment, but you know, as As everybody else goes, I'm not sure. It's gonna change, much mean that it's not as if the body politic was politics of saying

You know everybody wasn't sort of the base Republican was saying you know. I could really like Donald Trump, except I'm worried about this Russia thing. It was It's more like will this Russia thing is one of fifty reasons. Why really don't like tunnel trump? And so you know you remove one in its good to have that cloud of YO trees and gone, but the idea that I think that- would be dispositive in people's opinions of him? already his fan I just don't think of in the long run its can have that much influence. One where I disagree with that David ideology with Charlie REACT limit. Charlot, let me let you disagree, Vienna exit question. Could we get it right on it? so very attractive, so rate? How much this helps Donald Trump a little. Some a lot a ton. I think it helps him a lot if he doesn't step on it. This is done from we're talking about. He has his own worst enemy I'd I do cited.

Good day with a couple of quick reasons. One is that this has broken through. I think more than most stories. Most people don't see, for example, trumps feud with John Mccain. They see this The second thing is I just hate. This makes it more likely the people who don't consume a great deal of politics will. So I just don't believe now what they say about Trump, because he keeps peeing sunrise it like like special you a little. Some a lot done somewhere between a lot and on its massive victor. Over his chief opponent, which is the media guide it. It helps The only thing is my only caveat. I hope I'm not stepping on a future question. I think it also add a question I think it'll liberates the democratic candidates for president some degree actually believe that the democratic best chance of beating Trump is.

Focusing relentlessly on saying he gave a tax cut, the corporations in the rich and he's looking to cut Some social spending you like- and I didn't keep his promise on the wall and he's kind of rude an embarrassing. I think that is the strong case, and I think that case against Trump would be messed up by continue, to talk about Russia in Putin. Inclusion because I actually think a weirdly Sicel factor in american politics, is that american voters do not trust their own government to have savvy, or wit, to take on Vladimir Putin one on one and I think they'd be terrified of electing a Democrat promising to do that to avenge the last election. So I think This'Ll. This is great for Trump. I think it's also kind of good for Democrats and twenty twenty love nuanced, ever little son, like ass, good

Some. I think it's a lot in the short term some over the medium term and who the hell knows as we get closer to the election munitions Absolutely no question that, for right now that dominate the not dominate narrative is is helps him. It- helps him greatly and helps him greatly, not only by vindicating his long stay, Tweeted claim that there was no collusion, but also by discrediting some of his most vociferous critics- and I don't think, there's any way- that's not eight a real positive, short term development. But, as we know, my gosh, this meet new cycle moves so very quickly. In this Charlie said, it's really good. If he doesn't step on it. Probably a pretty good chance at some point, the next month, or so he's gonna, say something that steps all over whatever positive momentum that he's got so say little alot now some and then, who knows by twenty twenty. I called us

solid, some sleep, major upsides there and go up to the lot ton category on on some of these things. No primary challenge is, is a big deal that that that's correct in a cloud over its legitimacy, very helpful and justice, increases his ability to punch back with more credibility for exporters they had even before and had a lot start with. So those are all big things, but But the reason I caviar is is the point that Michael made. Russia was never the Democrats best case against tromp. It hurt them more than it hurt. Him it distracted them from the main case, which should be he's a populist whose governed like a standard republic in who cares about his rich friends as very self interested. You know that's what they should be saying that, should we go on talking about healthcare, much

more than a Trump tower meetings and all the rest of this in this may force them into that into the accent it does that actually hurts trumps. That brings my my score from a ladder toned down to some some case, your key keeping track The computations, every scientific approach move onto a couple other things. Let me quickly mention that we have one of our famous National Eu Cruises coming up the summer from August twenty first, thirty. First, it's a Canada, New England. Crews begins in Montreal ends in Boston, all sorts of wonderful destinations and best. Yet a lot of time to spend with your fellow national you fans and readers, and with Asher you, writers and errors, and a lot of other special guy We have all sorts of programming from the stage, inner use and panel discussions and then just allotted chance chances just to hang out and get to know

I one another better at cocktail parties or around swimming pool or around the bar or round the dinner table. We ve made a lot of really dear and among our are subscribers and supporters via these cruises. So if your regular cruiser will hope you'll beyond this one as well, if you haven't tried it yet please do you can, find out more at W, W w dot and our crews dot com, W W w dot and our crews dot com. So, let's hit a few, things before we go so Michael. You had been revisiting the work of some cousins yours who were counted, musicians yeah, so I've second since they left New Jersey decades ago. Move now Ellen pursue their country, music dreams.

And they put out an album in the mid nineties that, under their group name, the Della vanities as a last name, the dull of aunties, and the problem is called long about that time. And it is on Spotify, I dont think you could find it at our record store. I just anywhere media used record store in the south in a couple, minor radio hits, but the outcome is just such a pure work of joy, it sort of like the other. Every Everley brothers go Nashville, it's just gorgeous enjoy, and everyone should look it up on Spotify today, you re watching deep. Yes, I feel is premier the final season, I infer those you dont know hit, follows Cindy. Bio, show, following the misadventures of a former vice president, the name of Selina Mire. This show start ethically. This is the eighth and final season starting

this Sunday, the show began with her it's sort of air powerless vice president took her through lots of twists and turns, and it is absolutely Sterical- and you know, there's a number of shows right now that you feel like you're what you're, what you're you're a watching the parity, but it's an honor. His parity based on some real treats the another HBO show that is so That is silicon, Valley, witches and show that an awful lot in Silicon Valley, have a great fine, pointing out characters and saying who their modeled after but it it hilarious in its own right as even more hilarious after you, here are some of the yet revelations about any closures. Treatment of our staff, and some of the other stories you hear about treatment of staff and in DC it's it's very, very funny. I can't recommended. You have to have our really high tolerance for those listeners who your squeamish about language

You gotta have a really high tolerance for bad language, but man is it a funny? Show the Charlie you ve got with programme and gotten into March madness. I have. I have two people in my life who who helped me with new sports. One of them, is you rich? You do at nice and gently my like specific boys, good thing about basketball his how much beyond his works, the other one. Friend of mine here, farthings far less gentle. He says you don't know what that is. I thought you were an American. He came to my citizenship. Ceremonies is my citizenship should be revoked. If I, if I don't know what is happening so much madness- is a combination of the good cop, bad cop approach that if you took has been on in my house for the last few days, and I can see it- I never quite got basketball before, but I can see it. I watched the Tennessee game and the Duke Game, especially of the last couple of days. I like the fact that

you can route for the underdog somebody's head on Twitter that its very american that everybody puts the team they things gonna win in their bracket and then roots against the number. Sixteen or number ten seed that they're playing against what is what I've been doing as well, but I can say I get it so thank you for the recommendation. I have to say speaking of that Duke Game it should be a national scandal. I've been struck by the subs I have been able to follow with has been in discussion, but in a key plant get pay I came at the end when dukes losing by three enzyme. Williamson has the ball with your seconds ticking off besides, to go for the three and discover the hoop he is makes the basket Anna Fowl was called on. Taco fall the seven foot six, you see us player whose just standing there has just done There is clearly a charge and,

talk of all gets officiated badly, Loverlike Aaron Judges, a big tall guy, so you was get screwed on strike zone. I think taco follows just called for a fact: because he's a big guy I happen to be standing there and Dave. With China I've been discussing. You a lot lately about this, this basketball debate. Having an answer, I think I have better formulation for I called for also also many. In the analogy we came up with just college football, which isn't anywhere near as good as the NFL, but there sit there because a team there's a flawed there's, a variants. And outcomes and crazy stuff happens the first, whether the first day or two. Aramis New Mexico State playing some if who it was an almost had. This amazing come back are they are down by to the house the ball at the agendas Its draining away your lesson ten seconds and in their guy get this straight shot like one more step and he could have had an uncontested lay up, but did not

score was I cast so it the ball out to guide the perimeter, who takes us a faraway three point that he misses so no need to take that shot should have taken that shot, and then he should have been found that the guy fowls them and then he just these to make free, throw me wins. The game anyway makes one free throw and they lose, but they are one last chance because, with like two seconds left the team there My travels nippers supper is just like that cut it in the best games. That's a sort of thing that happens and also Oh you see you ass. You see I've ducas like that too. Where are you I've had it opens slam, Dunker lay up that private to guarantee their victory. They miss it design Lamson has led the free throw after the the bad foul call to tie it missus it. And here you see after beyond the way them, but they dont rebound the ball Duke deaths and they make the shot like that. That's college best Baldest best yeah, so

So first thing away my words better Charlie, told me after the last podcast that when I talk about basketball, I sound mean I just I don't want to be mean. I do in the rain on everyone's parade but anything you just described makes my skin crawl Let us not do not mean a toll David anyways. I mean in em a very nice mild way? It makes my skin crawl, but no, you know look I have been watching March met. My whole life watch, often on I'll just know that while you we're watching that I was I was watching, aims: harden dropped, sixty one points in a basketball game hitting shots and doing things I haven't seen, people do in a basketball in a long time and we'll just have to agree

the disagree I'll a wall, I'm I'm old off, I'm a little NBA cocoon and I will I will refrain from any further attacks on March madness, while all my all beloved colleagues our loving it every loving it for the rest of the money so truce, I come by a certain choice. Time letters picks. What's your pic, I liked the baseball pieces in this issue of national review, one by Michael Brennan, Daddy and the other by down Maclaughlan, who damn often speech it, a great Metz player that we actually put on an hour with a head image of him playing for another team which set not an act of trolling, I think was it was a genuine mistake, but if he was excited about pace season. As I am We had a little less like the reds. Did he go the ray? I met him at the rats here. An end to it,

exploded, not cause I'm Yankees found. I promise you. It was just a mistake, but anyhow various excited assigned for the start of baseball Susan. Very very soon, then these are way to breathe, The remaining days between them dead. What's your back Yeah, I'm gonna go with Andy's statement right after Andy any Mccarthy's peace right after the initial news of trumped exoneration leaked where he said after a exoneration trump full disclosure and this is something that I've got with Andy on from day one, we ve had different different kinds of disagreements over the course of this investigation. But one thing that we have both talked about- and I think he explains very eloquently here- is that You know to close this chapter. This really really contentious chapter in american political life we can,

need to see all of the evidence that we can possibly see without actually endangering lives of sources, and that is you know. How did the start? worthy of you know what, with what was the product for the fight. The applications. What was the supporting evidence way? the evidence that mother uncovered wishes to see it all I mean the american people should be able to see this and read it and deal with it. And- and I I think that he made that case- passionately and very well on the day after the M, the first leak of trumps exoneration, like who's gonna, save, Moroccans piece on Seeber but truly already hit it. So I went ahead. Charlie's posts in the in the wake of the bar letter and dumb. I repressed Charlie's sentiment throughout that the media needs to be burned to the ground rebuilt from scratch, and no one does it better than Charlie

So I am also going to just still want once again a salute any Mccarthy's work on suggest so well informed and judicious from beginning to end and willing to change its mind when he had new insights. But basically, you followed and he had a very good sense of of where this thing was going all long so hit. His work was really invaluable dirt. This story. So that's it for c mon. Listening to an ashtray podcasting, we broadcast retransmission account in this game of that, without the express written permission of National you magazine is strictly prohibited. This podcast has been produced by the incomparable Sarah should he who makes a sound better than we deserve. Thank Charlie thank David. Thank you, Michael. Thank you too. Unplanned and thanks especially to all of you for listening. We are the editors and we'll see you