I'm Alexandra to thank this and I'm one of the hosts of national I've used ordered the pretty podcast my compost, David French and I discuss all the latest in political news and especially the intersections between politics, culture and faith. We approach these topics with a focus on the constitution and the importance of our founding values and every once in a while, you can even catch us talking about are clashing views on sports and pop culture. You can listen to ordered liberty at National review, dot com or subscribe on Itunes. Google play Fisher tune in or whatever else you get. Your part gas fighting against the field Harris against herself moderate gems

against Progressives Marian Williamson against the dark, psychic forces we will discuss all this and more on this week's edition of the editors, hello Basel allow Deirdre our margin this week I Michael Brendan dirty EM, your host, and while I am in the chair, I am reordering this podcast to the highest good price. See David, French and the smartest political certainly no Luke Thomson are now while host, which Lowry is on assignment in EAST Asia, the right Charles see, W Cook is on assignment in Europe. So we had the debates this week Biden Joe Biden in polls that came out before debates had seemed to have recovered almost all of his diminished lead over the field.

That had been falling after his first debate and entanglement with Kemal Harris last night I will, according this early Thursday morning last night, he took fire from all across the stage from build a blog Harris Corey, Booker, David French. How did Biden due in the second debate better than the first debate? I think he scored some punches? He had a moment towards the end where he generated generated sorted this genuine audience. action when he was taking on Kirsten Billow brand and isn t it was the equivalent not to get to twitter, insider of the, but you are wedding, Denise kind of moment it was without you, but you're Syracuse with me Kirsten that really To sum up, I think this since of the

So fine, if I'm, if I'm Joe Biden, you know you're going to get in coming from all sides. You know that you're gonna get you know the oppo file on you is gonna, be huge, gives you been in public life for a very long time, but if I'm Joe Biden one or two things and I'm genuine but funneled by is the amount of the incoming he took for his role in what you know at the time, were seen as some of these seven all public policies, sources of his of previous popular democratic administrations, and we must not forget. You know Bill Clinton left office as controversial as he was with a high approval. Writing Barack Obama left office popular enough that the likely would have not trump into the outer orbits. If he had run against him and for us a you know, a fictional through

term than handed the baton. Overdid. Hillary Clinton, in the ninety ninety four crime bill Obama CARE Brok, Obama on immigration would have been have been considered for a long time by Democrats to be part of the legacy of success of those administration. I the crime bill, has come under more for a longer, but this is a bill that a majority, the congressional black hawk is supported in nineteen. Ninety four, There was a long and dramatic decline in crime rates under the Clinton administration. If courses rongji at the Clinton administration could for all that? But you can you not give the Clinton administration credit for some of that it really. It really was amazing because it seems likely moment it's nice, just that. Will the Democrats have his have evolved on policy, its not just lad. I mean parties evolve on policy all the time you learn new things

you go on two different things, but it was this scorn this This moral indignation at Joe Biden role in in Prague minute role he has played in the patent in the democratic past, Advance policies that democratic, long advance? and then this go warn that his health care policy, which would represent a significant expansion of the largest social welfare programme passed since the great society with Lyndon Johnson and nineteen, five items talking about Obama here that the Democratic its biggest social welfare success ass of the last couple of generations that binds expansion is preservation and in large scale, expansion of that now that this is not nearly enough, and so

you know? If I'm Joe Biden you had to be prepared for, and I thought he was reasonably aggressive, not not necessarily completely on top of his game, but reasonably by Joe Biden standards on top of his game in sending this off that at some point you ve gotta, just stand back and look in. They. What on earth? Is there nothing good that came up or is the arrogance of the present so great, but that seem to be where, where his critics were yet I funding interesting that you know its black lives matter, though, that movements, darted the media kind of cot, aren't these stories of police. You know not following procedure at all that they it follow when they encounter African Americans in in a routine incidents. That then lead to two unspeakable tragedies:

that's been ascendant, but it is weird and almost like the Democrats are taking their lead. from the kind of current media environment and forgetting that fourteen major African american mayors signed a letter supporting the crime bill because they wanted it to help them put more police on the streets. There was a kind of other side to Africa african attitudes towards policing, in the early nineties. You know there is that the public we saw nine when one is a joke. The idea that police and emergency services were to absent from black communities, not not just brutal, and Dictatorial crime was an emergency. I mean crime was through the roof. You come by by modern standards and so

You know something that what you know there is funding. Four hundred thousand new cops more than a hundred thousand new jail beds, people look at that and say mass incarceration while it actually turns out that mass incarceration she is a state level problem, its eight in ITALY, increases in federal incarceration. I'm Surrounding area error, but are not material to the mass incarceration problem, there was a get tough on crime wave that flooded the United States of America, but in part because them there was a crime. I mean more than two thousand murders and one year in New York City, more than two thousand, I'm old enough to remember that I wasn't living in the city at the time I got to the city shortly. ready, Giuliani, some sort of started, helping turn things around, but you know younger people and that sort of disproportionately who comprises that the core of twitter just have no member

if this and they look back at score in scorn with the actions the past taken to address it. No Luke by new took incoming fire from Corey Booker hoo hoo. Tried to take away the Obama card from Biden Righty. There was a change. Where you been had mentioned, Dino was defending the policy successes of a bomb administration and both build the Plaza and Corey Booker, both kind of tried to hit back at him. How do you think I did in those exchanges and do you think he still gets to play this card? Is it still an effective one in these primaries I think, bind us decide which card he's playing, times, he says the Obama Biden Administration, which is over, stating his role other times. He wants to sort of b the coy counselor and say things like I'm not

share my private advice to the president on that issue and then other times he wants to talk about his sort of foreign policy chops from his years in the Senate. My view on the Biden, Obama relationship is this Biden needs to pick. The subject is going to pay IRAN and deployed on that subject. Over and over and over again, it should be the subject where he has the greatest vulnerability with primary voters and that subject as health care, if Biden restricted himself to talking about Obama. Only two saying you know it's great to promise peep things, but I've been in the room. We delivered a large project that has has made a real difference in lots of people's lives saved tens of thousands of lives gone through the talking point about Obamacare and said, and I am ready to fight for it because dammit if it was good enough for Morocco bonnets good enough.

Me and I defy any one in the stage to say otherwise, then I think he can use it effectively right now he's using reflexively as a security like it. So he uses it one way when Kamel Harris attacks him. However artlessly she did that last night, he uses it a different way when deliberate attacks him then he walked into a problem with with Booker, where Booker, showing some chops that he didn't show in the first debate round. I said quite deftly looked, Mr Vice president. You can't have it both ways: you're, either glued at the hip to Barack Obama, in which case you own everything that happened in that administration. You need to explain your role in it or you get credit for none of it, because you were just the sort of Hopalong Cassidy Psyche, thought it was an if I thought, however, that that was an effective moment, we'll talk about Booker in a moment. I thought for, although Biden performed well I don't think anyone, Syria,

we damaged him I'll aid if he performs this well in debates going forward, I think his chances are higher than I've estimated them to be in the past I do want to see what happens as the hustings actually heat up. That was a big moment in Obama's own campaign in winning over the african American Bout that, had been in a clean. lightly onto Hillary Clinton in two thousand eight until he started doing these appearances in Game Cox medium in South Carolina and really moving people and with his political talent. You, I think you make a good point there, which is there's. The conventional wisdom is that the black vote was locked in four Hilary until the day after Obama, one the ILO caucus in and they all swung over die too about

That's not exactly what happened. It certainly was the guys that evening salivated, but yes, people were moving his way in South Carolina before him. Yeah I mean I, I was lucky enough to be able to witness that myself so exit question on Joe Biden will african american Democrats split or when from Biden before South Carolina Data, French. I think if he goes into Ireland, New Hampshire as viable as he seems now, no no I think if he goes in strong, if he weathers the the winnowing of down of the debates to a small are core. That's gonna be better at going after him, then then I say the position he goes into, I, when New Hampshire we'll be there

and he goes into with in South Carolina, if not stronger? If he's strong and those in the early states look Thomson just in South Carolina or across the board, lit a softer one is the but the first big test case. Anything yet I think Biden will have more residual strength in southern states, like South Carolina within the Blackfoot compared to northern states, where he's already struggling with the relatively more urbanized me younger black voting block in northern cities or in northern states. Item he's. I think he's limping along and subject to being knocked out and so a year I Where were you write about been Biden sceptical ITALY, where he sits in Iowa, is going to determine where he sits in South Carolina incurring. I think they will move away from him before South Carolina come Harris and Corey Booker we're both on the stage last night, the commission,

wisdom out of the first time first debate was that Kemal Harris had a big moment with Joe Biden there was a fee Knowing that the media class was in rallying to smaller Harris that she has the staff the kind of donor base. That is you note. The inherited broken Clinton machine that still exist in the Democratic Party. and the commission wisdom after the first mate was Corey. Booker was way out of his death. I think last night started to reverse it demon French. What did you think of the performance of these two candidates? Yeah, you know on Kemal Harris when she is not preparing when she's not unveiling a long prepared attack with teacher it's ready to unveil in the middle of the debate: she's, not quite as good and tolls. He gathered absolute,

he lowered the Burma was. It was pretty it was shades of how how excited review by that was listen, virtually purpose. That was awesome. I mean it was shades of Christine Rubio, where the extreme There is no just leave the other person stammering and, and it was, it was at the moment any would go on David yeah. I mean you know what Given. This is one of those issues that goes back to what I was just talking about with Joe Biden, something that used to be a talking point. for democratic politician is suddenly a a source of shame, and that is that she was this very tough prosecutor back in the day and and she was a very tough prosecutor- tough enough- that by the standards of right now, people sort of Blanche at the things that she did mean.

but you know when you actually do look at the record, and you know the you know the thousands of marijuana prosecutions when Harris jokes about marijuana smoke. marijuana when you talk about the resistance to dna testing for death row inmates. Twinning, Look at some of that stuff, it's troubling in, and you know what Harris did in the moment was sorted, just pause and you could tell she was rattled and just say that false will. You know there was aunt. There were instant fact checks. Of available, of course, everyone's It immediately circulating all of the pieces that had been written over the last six months about Harris's record as a prosecutor, an So in the moment when she says that falls, it sort of has a holding action effect of casting doubt on what you just watched but over time.

Think that is in particular, going to hit her because then what is happening is her. deny all of the attack list, another. You know twenty four to forty eight seventy two hours of life to the attack because it gets repeated reaffirmed eunuch, ass, the length and breadth of the internet. I thought that was very effective. She did not handle it, well at all and looking Democrats who have a record that isn't, fleetly in line with the Woke present are gone we have to have better answers to the question, then simply sort of dodging evading in denying they're going to have have a little bit more self confidence. their role in public life before this moment, because I think an awful lot of democratic primary voters are not exactly where woke Twitter is and are not exactly at the point of sale of rejecting all that came before said

gotta have a better answer. I thought Corey Booker was fine was good. I mean I'll. Just be honest, it's really hard for me after things like the Spartacus moment and some of the other history, a honey in the Senate to look at him and not not through that without that filter, and so it's hard for it's hard for me to take him as seriously as otherwise would in. That's, probably mistake on my part, because, frankly, all the Spartacus stuff and everything is so super insider ii that really, Nobody knows her cares about it all, but when I could kind of life that filter saw a guy who the reason why a lot of people pegged him as a talented formidable. Politician back in the day that he has some raw skill here in he has. No, he hasn't. He has a real ability when he's on his game to convey.

With sincerity, and I thought at his best moments- that's what he did. I came away thinking that Booker Booker star was rising and Harris's was falling. even though the earth these are both candidates. As you were kind of alluding to that part of their part of their stars. that is in the democratic party. Was that They were hard moderate. on one facet of the political spectrum. Right that Kemal Harris was a law and order figure in California politics, especially in the Democratic Party, and Corey Booker was a kind of neo, liberal urbanists. and yet the Democratic Party and both of these were seen as savvy moves it sort of like bees

the the outwardly christian person in the Democratic party. You know it's it's kind of like, shaping a budget stone in order to catch the light, and that is done it for this, but both of them were in a position where they were attacking the front runner from the left in this primary season. Luke Thomson: what did you think of both of them about I'm very cursing, you thought some Booker he said showed

something a little bit more last name. Guy think Corey is a better debater than he is a speaker when he speaks he tends towards histrionics and he gets excited and gets up front of himself and lines of sounding sort of ridiculous. If you, if you go back to his the Cavenaugh hearings, you you see him, which I believe is when we had our Spartacus moment he eat. He looks just over the top, whereas in that setting both clover char, who completely disappeared in the first night and Harris were much more systematic, much more poised, much more effective at at at delivering their messaging points. By contrast, in a debate Booker, I think please to his strength, which is he's happiest when it gets to be the happy warrior. New Gillette, Brent interrogation of Biden was a single note played over and over and over again, but why did you say it? But why did you say it, but why did you say it was quiet enough? We get your point right. Booker was able to deftly engage

Biden, without seeing either angry or flustered, and- and I thought that showed a strength as a candidate that he hasn't shown before given that he has good organisation, and I were if he can continue to improve and build on this. He can be a contender in that state. The flip side is, is that I dont know that he did enough to make people want to know more about him. Yet I would guess if you had a look at the sort of, Google search data- and this is by no means a perfect indicator. I doubt that he really popped that much last night yeah. I think that's right, and what did you Think about Khumalo Harrison seem to me, like I'm much more to be. She was real. On the defensive, not just in it. Gabert exchange, but in exchanges with Joe Biden, as well and she seemed to have the charisma that, in previous episodes of the others you know, Charlie Cook is attributed to

having this kind of commanding almost so. My royal presence on Ino assent committee or on from a prosecutors position. What what was going on Harris, has presence and can seem set very self possessed. But when I think we're starting to see is that that self possession can be gettin falls apart. If you get her off her footing and she got knocked off footing for the first time, I think two things happened. First of all, she tried to go back to the well of attacking Joe Biden which worked for the first time, but of course bide was ready and it also seemed unimaginable, unimaginative. It also didn't expand her appeal as a candidate, ok Centre, We ve seen this show before show is something new. I think the second thing is for whatever reason, she was not ready to be attacked herself, and that was dumb because Harris being

arguably, on that stage last night, the most vulnerable of the left challenging front runners right. What the person that, if your as euro to one percent polling candidate, you attack for the purposes of elevating yourself at her expenses, the exact thing she did to bite and in the first debate, and so when Gabert came at her, she was completely unprepared to respond she was flustered. She never regained it and then, when she went to the spinner him afterwards, she still hadn't regained at all. She did was accused Tulsa Gabert of cuddling up to Assad which she does, but I think that's baked in. She didn't defend a record effectively and she didn't push back on what she claimed were found Full inaccuracy right is its even. It was a really bad exchange fur Kemal, precisely because this is if she was unwilling to defend herself who she is, what she's supposedly bringing to this race? Ok exit, question David French,

Who will survive longest in the democratic primary creed? Booker Coma Harris Kemal Harris? I just I just don't think that Booker think he did fine, but I just don't think that this month, debts debate, elevated him all that much- and here is just has enormous built in advantages. Luke terms from waste is a tough one. Gun to my head, I would probably say Harris because she has more money, but I think Koreas, learning in improving as a candidate and will probably improve, is pulling standard position, whereas Harris does not appear to be improving, it appears to be diminishing as a candidate. The correct answer is very Booker. I think, for the reasons the term suggested there. I think this can be curiosity about him. I think I can

he's going to be willing when it comes time to defend his own record. In New York in a way that common heritage, seem willing to do in California, and am I also just think that something about collectors. Inheriting the Clinton team. That's going to bring dark, psychic forces to bear. With the king of him organisation itself. So now it is time to, move on to our first sponsor the new kids quip, has the same two minute timer in guiding pulse, as are a regional version with no childish gimmicks, so they can brush just like a grown up. We're talking Bout quip, the modern toothbrush that has so many advantages for your oral health. It has built into minute timer pulses and it pulses every thirty

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Free at G t Q, you ip dot com, slash editors. Thank you, quip. All right. We should talk about the first night of the debate. We had its own kind of interesting moments and I think the break out startled once again by Google Searches is Mary Williamson. As my wife asked me, I was one The debate on my ipod last night. What we're trying to get our children to finally sleep, she said or two to go. She said always the Happy hippy woman doing well and sure enough. She was it kind of a moment where Williams Williamson said that she can have offered a kind of critique of the field and it was similar to one should offered in the first to be where she said. If you think you're going to beat, you know, Donald Trump with all these plans are all this wants.

Stuff you're wrong, he's unleashed dark psychic forces in the country that that was a quote. The dark psychic force in his country, and you have to counter. That and immediate reaction from the media sphere on Twitter was ha ha silly new age guru and then what in about fifteen minutes. Twenty is a kind of settled in people? I think started to realize that Marian Williamson might be onto them. they not just as an electoral matter, but even as a descriptive one, David French, you even written a little bit about this, have you How are you about to be expelled from Geneva. One way of Michael surveillance. Was the Marian Williamson moment for yeah? You know it was you you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the sort of two step response to the dark: psychic forces of collective

trade. Everyone immediately laughed at look. The new age candidate said Dark, cited, psychic forces I I shared a sovereign jes on twitter hint in then you you think second any go. Wait. A minute yeah, I mean this is the hatred and the negative polarisation in the sense of rage. That is dominating are public discourse. I mean how times we said just now. Talking about you know, the events of the last couple of in a couple of months. We have been through this and we have this level of intensity, and we have this level of anger and its own July July. Twenty nineteen! Well now you know August twenty nineteen. What's it going to be like In July, twenty twenty what's gonna, be like an August twenty twenty and with all due policies too to marry him. I had to walk a fire, her statement against walks a little bit and look:

some of the data regarding what Americans think about each other and it's really sobering the level of partisan hatred of just sheer hatred. I mean you know, we talked about this. I think several many weeks ago, but surveys the catering that you know up to when per cent of one political party believes the United States Be better off if this substantial portion of their political opponents would just die that Larga debt up to Aveeno? Twenty percent of you know up to percent of partisans think that their opponents have sub human characteristics Here, the overwhelming majority description of your political opponents is, you know, as brainwashed as racist as hateful and that's but that's a bipartisan phenomena. So what you're talking about? I think, he's talking about

in her own Corky way, with these central organizing force of american politics wretched right now, which as much as you know, we ve been talking about, sir. The willingness on the left in the trump is among the right. Its neck, if polarization it's too late, nothing of the other side the central organizing principle of american politics, and so she hitting on something that is very dark and american politics. It is a deep problem for our country and she is right that wanting us won't solve it and in some ways walking us exacerbates it. Because it's the walking is for radicalism, its hey, my dad says we should completely in a vast segment of this population. I mean if this economy and the way you're a horrible human being. If you disagree with me, sort of Entelechy, that's exacerbating all of this stuff in so yeah she hit on something she had on something important and it was

and heard Corky Way Ray. I really really true to human rights. Its moment? I you know so I kind of felt bad for my sorrow, Jeff. I didn't led to tweak as a source of funding, and this for me listen. I think a couple of comments about Marian her to be performance. I should think not just good for their surprise inside the king from her third or her a shocker whatever it was also she did she performed well, I think, in conventional terms, in the sense of. She's, a commanding charismatic pursued, She is a kind of accident that draws you in that sort of is odd is. She kept bringing the focus back to defeating Donald Trump, which is for the Democrats. watching their chief goal. And then she had this,

moment, and I think it's a moment that I'm I'm I'm working on a common saying that, in a way, her her approach resonates more than PETE Buddha judges who speak P, Buddha judges approach to the spiritual condition of our countries just to reprobate. Republicans is happy, fritz, but she think Mary ends contrast of the the forces of fear, verses, love or collective hatred, verses healing, actually, there's a therapy. the bridge between her new ages, em and even the even right as it. Currently, I was just see exactly this Marian Williamson as the only candidate on that stage who can appeal to non denominational, evangelical Christians, I die, I mean, like I'm, not kidding people, I've been on the Williamson train from the beginning, she's vastly underrated this woman assault, four million books to members of the of the middle and working classes who live in

Middle America she's a household name, she's well known for a lot of people. She is well known to people who watch Oprah, move people. you know if you have never heard of Marian Williamson. Let me tell you: there are people you have now that you know many of them have read at least one of her books and the the ubiquity of sort of new wage, Lucy, goosey spirituality in the United States in the year. Twenty nineteen cannot be understated I think you're, overstates Ben Psmith Buzzfeed had an interesting tweet where he said you know He was hanging around the debate ages or whatever, and that he was talking to one of the people on limbs and staff who said yeah. We come in the hosts, of a media shows are like opening laughing in cackling at

Marion Williamson in and making fun of hers some kind of anti vaccine crackpot, but all the makeup Ladys greet her and start crying and opening their guts to her. But I both maybe both physically and metaphorically? Maybe they're? Looking for some she's strongly gifted communicator, if you have not watched her interview with on a tight showest, Stephen Colbert compare comes into it. He sort of presses or out of the gate, to try to make it look silly and she turns the audience against him there. Effectively. She is. She has proximity, the celebrity a lot of Loki, name recognition and is very good on television the person she's most like in this race. If we were to go back to twenty, sixteen is Ben Carson and Carson was a guy who, where I'm from the MID West, was a household name, everybody had a copy of gifted hands on their on their book shelves, and yet

nobody in New York, Desir in the general sort of a seller politics media world, had ever heard of him. What the other thing no is for it. We ve talked about dark psychic forces of collective hatred, but there was also hidden within that answer a really troubling truth and that troubling truth when she said she lived in gross point and what happened in Flint would have never happen in gross point, and this Is this a sort of hitting on the caught dead This is hitting on inequality and a much more lived experience kind of way than you know. Talking about income differences when you talk about well, you know, then this country there are some theirs. communities that are vulnerable to lead, poisoning and others that are not. That really does hit home and in our group agreed, looks at this that

she is a gifted communicator. I think the handicapped that she faces is that she No, she has sold millions of copies of her books and even though she has what the third fourth largest twitter, following of anyone, On the debate stage, I mean really immense platform on social media she's still is not as well known as been Carson was she's and she's, What left far far far less known than then Donald Trump was twenty fifteen. When you know he'd been a mega celebrity for third, years. She has this very deep level of she has a very shears very following this large and intense, but still small for the standpoint of national name recognition for a presidential race, which I think is one of the reasons why she was the

heavily Google person out of in forty nine out of fifty states is a combo of wow. Look at what she said. And oh wow? Who is this person, so I think there- is well known and she has a aim or notoriety that dwarf city of ours, of course, but when you're talking machination three hundred and twenty, in people. She still kind a niche, so I won't ask about Marian Williamson as an exit question can double barreled will other democratic candidates pick up on her attempt to speak to the nation spiritually in therapeutically. And it is this- the last time will actually see Marian Williamson in these debates. Luke Thomson, it is not the last time- will see her. I think she will qualify for future debates. I think that Corey Booker, we'll talk,

I feel blended with it some of the rhetoric of the black church and will see if its effective in the past. When he's gone there, it's been a little tenured David. French agree with every syllable of that yes, look, Thompsons right fully and totally It is a political consultant. It helps when you're the only one we no. So we have a second sponsor today and it's our friends over at dividend. Cafe we Have so many options for engaging political pod casts. Even within the National Review circle of high quality podcast content. But where does one go if they want concise, practical hard, hitting investment commentary

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for the dividend. Cafe podcast for ongoing analysis of the trade war, the election, the FED and much more, that's deepening cafe. For now nonsense: economic commentary from the bonds and group your antidote to the thoughtlessness and laziness of today's financial adviser popular given all right so also, first night, I think the two biggest stars were Bernie Sanders, and was with warring the people that people were watching for and it surprising to me to see at least in that The lines become much clearer that there that there are moderates in the Democratic Party willing to fight for their corner and not just to cower in fear of Elizabeth warns, Waggery or Bernie Sand?

a kind of moral case against the billionaire class and call for political revolution. Luke Thompson. What did you make of WAR in Sanders and the kind of progressive end of that first knighted of the debate? What what were they were? They still stood or was this sir introducing D In our mind, I don't think it's introducing doubts our mind? We saw some of the limitations that war and has a debater. She clung to this duration. To tell about a progressive activist with hail ass long after the debated moved pastor and at times she d appeared as she did during the first night, but I think in many respects she probably came away from the first night. The winner of the most important thing she did on the first night was follow through on her campaign strategic decision not to engage directly Bernie. I think that they realise that right now they ve they ve got a shoulder in front of him and the best thing they can do

kill him with kindness to bring his people over to them, as his campaign seems to lose strategic focus and momentum. Having said that, we saw the best version of burning on the first night. He was funny he was lively. He was spry, he was sort of insofar as he might lapse use creepy. He was whipping Bernie is funny. He doesn't. He does not have a lot of range and he is not a brilliant person, but he he was good the price. what business that we ve seen a lot of Bernie of last four years, and I wonder if even the best from version of Bernie feels like old news I mean it was I liked his. I thought this was his most charming to be how do we respond to this you're wrong wrong? I wrote the damn bill I liked. I liked him as a person. More needs to be, but am I Take your point David. What what did you make of these? Two on the first night? I mean these these. These are the two that I think people. First

oh just wait until there on the stage directly with Biden. So so what? What did you make them?. Yeah. I'm I was less impressed, I think said, when you're talking about Elizabeth Warren and when you're talking about Bernie Sanders, I feel like I'm watching sort of the programme save con version of the truck con, which was the wall and make Mexico pay for it. I mean Otherwise an exit burn a little bit from this cause he's just been sort of beating the same drum for forty years but Elizabeth WAR and is smart enough to know that these plans, on plans in layers upon layers of action items are pipe dreams they're, just absolute picture, and yet she's, going on acting as if that the, only thing, that's preventing us from revolutionizing the American.

economy along the lines that she has proved meticulously, ordered order. It is our lack of ability to dream big enough, which is just about third, I think of reading it might have been Ross. Dal said a day or so ago, but this sort of idea that the kind of platform that Joe Biden has in some of these other them. More moderate Democrats have a public option. Free college to your college extremely aggressive by historical standards, actions on climate change that all of that, just that would be. That would just be a failure to just be a failure for democratic president, in other words, the most effective democratic. wouldn't it be at passing significant policy reform since Johnson, would be a failure and the only thing, is dreaming. Big enough is the kind of dreams and Elizabeth worn in Bernie. Sanders are dreaming and

you know. I saw a lot of speculation on CNN that well just wait until it's down to the my group and Watch Elizabeth, worn carve up Joe Biden, but you know Joe Biden has some pretty simple risk nonsense. I mean what are you gonna? How are you going to find even part of the three really in dollars a year in new spending on health care alone. Like that simple question that simple question: they don't have a great answer to an Bernie at least. Is the eyes honest enough to say yes, we're gonna be raised in your taxes and and so I am a little bit less impressed at this very want guiche a meticulous, planned manner with which warn approaches, things definitely unimpressed for the notion when she gets push back of well. If you, if you didn't, want

dream big why'd, you get into politics sort of answer when you know the idea that you're gonna do any of this any of this requires not just beating Donald Trump but sweeping cocaine, match out of office or out of the Senate a majority leader position sweeping aside to filibuster, proof, majority and then persuading people to essentially sacrificed their careers on the altar of the most radical left wing legislative project in modern history. But you know that's so I'd. That's why I feel like we're just watching a kind of a progressive con unfold. I moved to mines in that. On the one hand, you know Donald Trump Promise that Mexico is going to pay from the wall. Anyone you know. So it was a big unreal. stick totally invisible promises, they don't

we heard, on the other hand, the weeny, I think, did actually punch her pretty hard punch the idea of Medicare for all pretty hard by saying, listen, Medicare pays at eighty percent of the costs of them the medical services. Are given under Medicare. Private insurance pays a hunter Twenty percent of the costs dude it, and if you, you know, compensate every man, a call institution and employee at eighty percent. You're gonna see hospitals, clothes, but that was very simple, straightforward and effective. I think people understood On the other hand, I did think wine was eyes

Are we to emphasise how much people heat the endless paper work and the endless own menus that people face when their dealing with their private insurance through often through their job Luke? What did you make of of on them of Warren overall an end is she? Is she really is she to be able to compete with binding directly I think we're we're going to see this soon is notches, worn competing with Bernie, but clashing directly with Biden, and I think that's what

most progressive and mostly media, I think, is clamouring for, I dont think, will ever seer clash with Bernie. I think she knows that that's not in our interest, and I think she also has the burning- will attack her and then that puts us in a better position. Yes, we will see or attack Biden directly, but how that plays is going to depend the lot on how Biden responds in the first. there were five centres on the stage more or less and Williamson actually cited with them. A little bit on the better care for all, but if you look at the way they responded. Enclosure wind at witness protection, she's done forget her, I don't know my ship credit that John Heaven Loop looks like weird vampire he's out, forget him and so really what it fell down. She was, like Ryan and Delaney, to defend their opposition. Medicare from fraud Balikh swallowed his tongue could, it sends out, seem nervous. Ok, then it can under Ryan into Lady who both gave very earnest and impassioned critiques of the meadow care for our position. The problem is that that's where,

stopped. Nobody representing the non Medicare for all lane. If you wanna use that term under party has offered an affirmative defence of Obama CARE, and till you can make an affirmative defence of the structure of the status quo, while articulating things you would do to improve it. You're gonna, wind up just stock in the water. The closest thing we have to that is PETE Buddha. Chechen sort of you can have your cake and eat it to medical care for all who want it, approach which I think is susceptible to being punctured both from the left and from the right. but if you're really going to oppose Medicare for all, there are only two audience arguments that you should make. The first was made on night one. This will take healthcare away from fifty two hundred and eighty million people, including union members that will make it unpalatable in the general election and Reelect Donald Trump argument. Number two Obama care is working

Why are you spitting on the legacy of Barack Obama, the most effective and successful democratic president, my lifetime, those the only two arguments that they have. The first got me however artlessly it was made earnestly and passionately by John Delaney, more than the others. The second one was a while yet Biden is trying to do this. I actually think he is trying to to read the needle you are talking about. I do However, it is just fashion as a political matter that both nights- you have basically forty minute opening extreme, on health care, even though a major health. what was the incredible, but she meant slash, psycho drama of the previous democratic presidency does lead this to this weird tension of. Are the Democrats running

on the legacy of Barack Obama or against it, and that I think that characterized the uncertain feeling they are in a way almost felt like it almost hurts the party that the issue that they spent so much political capital on last presidency is still be number one issue there facing in these debates, both rounds of them so exit question on this section is the socialists, slash social democracy, hide in the Democratic Party still rising, or has it crested or is it getting to recede David. French, it's still rising, but with a little bit less momentum. I think that what the that, really marked the difference between this rounded debates from the last round debate of debates is there just was no real meaningful pushed back against that that right

using socialist tied democratic socialist tied, whereas this time both nights, there was strong push back, including from guy you just so happens to have a commanding led in the polls, so I do think the tightest rising. I think it's rising more slowly and but I guess do. I also feel like that. The discharge as of right. Now, the hopes of more moderate Democrats are pinned on us, six year old, Joe Biden, has obviously lost a bit of his fastball in isn't prepared as they they might like to defend. The democratic legacy of the last generation Lou Thomson is through tied to the socialist social democracy, tied still rising, cresting or receding. Well, it is rising, it's gonna continued arise. If I may say

is a very good article in the printing issue of national review from May of twenty seventeen ya written by someone that argues that the democratic coalition is shifting into a position that will encourage the end and tips for strongly ideological politics becoming the norm, and I think that's what we're gonna see, even if Biden somehow pulls out this nomination and somehow beats Donald Trump he's in all, but explicitly a one term president, at which point we do this whole cycle. Over again, you are, I'm. I'm beginning to think along look Thomson lines that in a way, the Tea Party congressional action of twenty ten was the last gasp of the ideological republican Party politics in that in the way that you described and that the elect- of any o c and others, and the forthcoming in current primary pressure in urban districts, against guys, like nad, lower

and others is moving, is still moving. The party laughed and into a more ideological position so or we wrapped things up. I want to go to our light items David. What has been bringing you joy or lightness and life this week? I have really late to this, but I've been really enjoying HBO succession witches and is near as I can tell being loosely based on a Fox news, style, media empire and the struggle to succeed, the aging patriarch of the family and I'd heard it was good

I had heard it was worth watching, but I started watching it in and a it's better than I thought it would be a and b it's a lot funnier than I thought it would be. It's just a fantastic show. It's it's a good bridge. between in in a so it's a good bridge right now and slow time when there is no college Football NBA Play officer over the summer. movie season as winding down, except for Hobbs and Shaw coming out tomorrow, I will be there how many times you can see that David. You know, that's a really good question I think I usually go in the theater twice to get rock, maybe and then, and then, when you know when it comes out on in on Itunes, then I can even count how many times we watch it. But but my light item next week will be helped ensure that before then HBO six

Thompson what's your later this week. So I am, I am list into the audio book of the right stuff narrated by Dennis Quaid and I've read the right stuff, a couple of times rows of quite a bit younger, but I have to give a lot of cash two Quaid who has sort of a higher read your voice. Then I realized, but it's quite affecting, and I strongly recommend attaining when looking for it for an audio book. It's it's on audible and he does a really great job with with Wolf's prose. Very good, I mainly item this week is you know, Some years ago we have, like a little windfall. In my household in we bought nice cameras. We bought one in a nice full frame cameras a minute. We bought a kind of. cheaper carried along Olympus camera and I start updating the lenses and embodies stuff because now

we have children and for one a document, and I love kind of love. The sure toward in food. Its level of camera gear? That's out there, I'm I'm May I think, on Olympus fan boy, I like the micro, four thirds system. If, if people are into digital photography, they come to know that is the smaller sensor system. It's been poohpooh by a lot of professional photographers, but it's just product. I get an amazing results for my levels: experience and its at a level. Where're. You know you'd videos and other photographers that are trying make a lot of money on the side with tutorials on something that is just as wealth of stuff too try and as I had to hopefully

on vacation time. Soon, I'm looking to try my hand at some some in a neutral density felt These are my camera and get some good landscape photography in, for the first time, of my life so now is the time for editors picks David. This is where we pick. great articles that are available and national view David. What does your pick this week? I really appreciate haven't Williamson talking about poverty, I Kevin is, is wonderful to read, he's kind of has a desperate fortunate impact on our editors clicks on a weekend. We, out basis, but Kevin on poverty is one of them he's one of the more awful and thought provoking writers out there, and you know it. He provided in a nice corrective to sort of the this I gazed at the moment and conservative world, which is piling on to democratic leader

is in cities for their failures, and there have been many failures of democratic leaders to deal with problems of urban price. poverty by noting that there are extraordinarily poor republican areas that are as ever, nearly every bit as read as democratic cities are blue. You talked about Owsley County Kentucky, for example, that are have are in the grip of their own cycle of multi. Generational poverty and it was sort of unnecessary corrective to this ha ha? Look. One set of artisans is really bad at this sort of hectoring

we ve seen over the last week. I was there was a good piece Luke Thomson. What is your pic? I I'm gonna go with Jim Gary's peace posted this morning on binds performance in the debate debate. He I think that Jim is just a great sort of analysed. This is, in my view, the best case that can be made for Biden candidacy. Many does it very well and frankly, people should read morning. Chilton read what Jim rights anyway. It's been, it's been especially good. Selection season. I picked it up. I picked the mornings last week, but for me, the peace this week was David David French's on Lee in general call the young restless and were formed Figure Joshua Harris who became a kind of sensation across evangelical world in the nineties. With his book I kissed dating goodbye, in which is young

and who is still just affianced at the time was explaining to the whole world that he had found the secret to healthy marriage and Love But anyway it had a profound effect on an even keel for youth groups and discourse of the time which David talks about from personal experience and you know I just thought- David's peace in a got at the kind of legal logistic sense of arm. Joshua Harris's project in his innocence. It it falls foul of Saint Paul letter to the Romans in which- you set up a law that the ends up convicting people and

leaving them feeling accused and estranged from their God. I just thought it was a great, a great peace that is it for us. This, week. That is it really editors worse. I'm so! Thank you, I'm so honoured to be in riches chair temporarily. We will welcome back next week, I believe That's it for us. I am not going to give riches be like ending to the podcast. Thank you so much Sloan Amelia,