I'm Alexandria to thank this and I'm one of the hosts of national I've used ordered the pretty podcast by compost, David French and I discuss all the latest in political news and especially the intersections between politics, culture and faith. We approach these topics with a focus on the constitution and the importance of our founding values and every once in a while, you can even catch us talking about are clashing views on sports and pop culture. You can listen to ordered liberty at National review, dot com or subscribe on Itunes. Google play Fisher tune in or whatever else you get your part gas poor in El Paso in Dayton, we will discuss this nothing more on this week's edition of the errors umbrage loud.

I was joined as always released occasionally by the right honourable Charles see w cook the pride of Tennessee, David, French and Alexander Zan to sanctify. Listening to a natural podcast. Our sponsor this week is Dividend CAFE listening since Podcast NASH, Rio de some weird right. Have you gotta be easier few and better for us? If you made us part of your feet at Google Place teacher, I tunes tune in or Spotify, and if you like what you hear here, please give us a glowing five star review on Itunes. If you dont like what you hear your please forget, I said anything so David. Let's start with you and start with El Paso, a horrific shooting a Walmart and what gave its special political charge, obviously a manifesto that this hateful freak posted on aid, Chan, making this the third

shooting connected to a Chan and spouting the same talking points as he's prior white nationalist. What do you make of it well. I think what we make it when I make that is, I think, we're dealing with a wave of terrorism from White NASH, was not in its not just the a chance for the ATM development is a sort of more recent? It's a more recent phenomenon: it dates back to the Christ, church, Shooter and New Zealand. You posted in a channel manifesto than we had a shooter the very next month and put away in California who attacked synagogue, and then we had the Walmart shooters there's been, as you said, the three eight Chan shootings. However, if you go back to many sixteen and go forward from there. We ve had a number of other incidents. Of course we ve had the Charlotte

Phil terror attack, wear white nationalist drove his car into a group of protesters. We had an incident where. person who is a member of an outbreak. Facebook group stabbed death ass, a young blood, College student in Maryland, a guy went to New York with a sword to kill black people, killed a african a man in New York and insight. in Kansas, another incident in Kentucky the tree of life shooting in in Pittsburgh. So all of things are adding to get into a way, of terrorist violence that if it were done by she hottest. We would be immediately ramping up are alert levels and we would be immediately ramping up our answer to anti terror activities, and so I think that what we have to testing and is do have a way of light, matchless terrorism, its end

we need to adjust our policy accordingly and it's not the same scale is ISIS I've. I've heard some people pushing back on some for example, are in our editorial or the peace that I wrote. How dare you compare this to jihadist terror? These white nationalists have taken over entire country. Sized regions like ISIS did they have it alone, the terror attacks as as massive is as nine eleven yeah exactly right at the scale. The jihadist terror threat still dwarfs and has dwarfed the scale, the White nationals, terror threat, but it still a terror threat in its and, unfortunately, into one letter nominally hope, so I why the key word is appropriate, wise at a terror threat,

yeah that terrorism is a a pretty easy to define term is essentially violence with a political purpose. It's violence to advance a pull political motivation. nickel or religious motivation, and so what you have here are people who are in the grip of a very pretty Miller ideology, one that has long routes, Fortunately, in the United States, a white man She was ideology and there and seeing that white nationalist ideology in that the the manifesto. make that pretty dark clear in the manner sort of add the for now twist on this old ideology that we're seeing and a lot of the all right commentary over the recent years and that all right commentary advances sorted this theory, though immigration, particularly immigration from South America, is part of what they would call a white genocide or the great replacement. wear black and brown immigrants are coming to the United States and steadily replacing

replacing White America, and so this way terrorism designed to both launch an attack against the people that the shooter? in his twisted mine thought were responsible for this. it also as people as the shooter attacks. Releases its manifesto and exposes millions and millions of people to this ideology so check a classic exam Full of terrorism is not unlike the terrorism you see in the Middle EAST or the jihadist terrorism. You seem in the? U S. So what do you think sandy by that risk analysis,

It makes sense to me- and I think, following on the heels of what we saw, what with the Christchurch shooting in particular, I mean just to see another augusta copycat really is how I'm thinking about it. I think there's. No doubt we have the sort of string of people who think you know it's bad time, immigration of any kind, it's bad for America and response to that clearly already unhinge people unstable people then think that violence is the appropriate solution to that, and I think you know what's ward the Dayton shooting at. I guess what that little bit that not only do we have sort of these politically motivated shootings, but we have a crisis of just young men who I selected and troubled and who are using violence as a way of getting attention and going out. You know in the famous glory they think I'm nuts, I guess, got about a different question from terrorism, but also, I think, a very, very troubling development, so true that there are some people who pushed back on on this perspective, this wave looking

at least a subset of shootings and say no. What we're dealing with in all these cases is isolated, DIS, disaffected, nihilistic, males and that's the root of the problem. Not any ideology sorts not make it about that, but I think we can do both. It seems obvious That's the people who are most likely to commit the source of crimes are young floating lost young men. It is also apparently the case that a lot of those people. seem drawn to one particular ideological strand. I don't think it would be especially convincing. to say look, don't worry about radical Islam because common denominators, young man. It is not clear

Radical Islam is an ideology that attracts young man of a certain type and from certain areas, and it seems clear that white supremacist is doing so similar in America, and we do have a pattern here. Three shootings by as members of the same website with the same aims and cross referenced. The shooter per way said that he was inspired by the shooter in Christchurch New Zealand, and so did the shooter El Paso ass a result. I think it's entirely appropriate for the government to ramp up its efforts to push back against this ideology and attract those who is passing it. The first amendment is sacrosanct: it must not, as any part of the process,

curtailed or diminished, but it's not illegal in the United States for the authorities to monitor those, they believe might be a threat, and it's not illegal for the authorities to investigate and even prosecute those who are guilty of incitement. As long as that, incitement is eminent. The websites around which these people congregate should be looked at, not shut down, not prosecuted about, should be looked at and infiltrated do you think that we ought to be careful not to the temptation we have in our modern culture? See that action as a panacea? It's not a won't be. It will be a hard slog, but this is a very, very difficult problem to solve, for a number of reasons, it is more difficult to solve a virtual threat, then it is a physical

threat and what I mean by that is that in them anti nineties. When we had another problem with white supremacy, the people who are involved, tended to have compounds You could go to Idaho and you could walk right up to the gate said area nation on the gate. If you wanted to infiltrate that group and you did so successfully, you would have a fairly good chance of preventing any Her aunt s attack purely because you would know where it was going to come from. You probably could talk to the people who are planning it and then tip off the authorities. It's more difficult to do that on line. You don't know where people live there anonymous and even if you do know where they are, they spread out the meeting places in the cloud. It's not in one place, so we ought to be we're not resume. This will solve the problem in that a lot of their manifestos and

and an admissions of of eminent guilt that we ve seen came thirty minutes before the shooting it's also got because this radicalization is passive in the sense that it is not there is a website out there called white supremacist shooters dot com, which people talk about what they're going to do next Thursday even that has a list of our catechism on it too. its adherents are expected to show fail tee, These conversations seem to passively radicalized some people and not radicalism, that some people regard the eight chance of the world. S hotbeds of irony and others seem to regard them ass, hotbeds of genuine bigotry and it's a meeting place for similar minds, The last reason is going to be difficult. Is that different, Org,

positions within America will need to be recruited to do this in that. Although I think it's fine to call this, terrorism. We do treat foreign terrorists differently than domestic terrorists. We ve done that I deliberately that has a bipartisan support, because what we don't want to do is stop wielding the power of the federal government, against dissenters writ large or against speech or against ideology. it's one thing to recruit. The federal government against people have come from other countries, a planning, something it's another thing to monitor and citizens living in the United States? We do need to do that, but we need to be careful.

In doing so, and we also need to recognise as a result that is going to be difficult to achieve what we want to achieve here without a great deal of creativity, yet Davis, I went back and looked at what the F b I did with the clan and then the sixties and an early seventies, and it was a serious effort in the night FBI. Obviously what they did. Civil rights, movement and heartless king in particular, was her ethics. A lot of people just think. Well, whatever the F B, I didn't plan was serve a pro forma check, the box exercise, but are they really dug in and very serious about controlling, and dropping the clan and owes it incredibly successful efforts and they need the plan was shot through with FBI. I informants thief. de I would

diminish the number of clan members and in a more radical group and then get them over into another clan group that was more moderate, causes tarling, controlled Fbi informants, sometimes a they'd prop up clan, existing and groups, because their worried that, if they really succeeded in totally crushing them they'd the radical among them would disperse, and they wouldn't be so you eat. surveillance or control or anymore. Actually, this each writer of the President of the United Clans of Amerika, was FBI and format, and he worked on the president of Model It has been chosen in various where's that so you look at it and on those terms, it just incredibly successful effort. On the other hand, I mean there. This was not what we were doing, except the F B. I do with any really domestic group. These days, those against the law in various respects. It was not just the

clan obviously is arise. Groups. It was that the new laughed with socialist, as scan on all these secret programmes were revealed, but Europe? One thanks that there is more that the F b I can doing here. So what's the line? How far can they push before you you're getting into violations of similar liberties, that what will regret and have unintended consequences, besides being a legal right, I you know, I think, that One of the things that can be done- that's relatively low hanging fruit is, you can have FBI all over these message. Boards- and you can have the FBI crawling all over these online communities and when one thing that, if you look at some of the folks who have been brought under We had this trend for a while where there is jihadist terrorists who F B, I had interviewed it turns out, they had been like on an FBI radar screen and they had slipped through the cracks.

and committed acts of terror one in most notable, of course, was the Orlando nightclub Pulse Nightclub shooter, but one of the things that I learned from that was how extensive the eye surveillance had become of things like jihadist message. Boards how it responded to how quickly it responded to reports that a young muslim man has indicated affection or allegiance in any way, shape or form to Al Qaeda or Hezbollah. You're going a visit from the FBI, and so I think in the circumstance of your, if you're, looking at these message boards at your looking at this online community, and your seeing people who are celebrating using the slang that is now becoming known that, using such as digits, which involve sort of the game, application of cereal killing and your life, at some of the language on the message boards debt The people were celebrating this who are indicating allegiance

movement. It's entirely acceptable in an atmosphere. Where would we have had the wave of terror that ire articulated earlier it's entirely acceptable and that atmosphere for them to get it? from the FBI it's entirely. suitable when there is sufficient probable cause to go beyond a visit, just a mere visit from the FBI to actual surveillance. so a lot of this, I think, is it it's not breaking new ground, its resource allocation hamlet, Are we going to resource the FBI Ebery? I think I saw yesterday that, as of right now, the location of resources in the FBI, international terrorism versus domestic terrorism, I'd, be eighty twenty and I don't necessarily think that we should look at that is affixed pie of money where we then go seventy thirty year, sixty forty, perhaps weeks ban the size of the pie and we get more resources allocated to domestic terrorism without neglecting the threat of international terrorism, which there's been some reports

I saw just yesterday that ISIS is busy trying to reconstitute itself in parts of Iraq and in a still a threat. parts of Syria, so I dont look at it that we have, let's say a hundred dollars to fight terror and let's allocate ten more dollars from the international terrorism pile to the domestic. tourism pile we. I want to say, let's add ten more dollars to the domestic terrorism, pile and reason the FBI. That way, I don't one of the things that we do we after member. Is that You know as much as we supportive as my set aside It is fashionable in recent years. jump on the FBI. We do, I have to acknowledge that it has been remarkably successful preventing international terrorism in the United States since nine eleven. If you talk to someone on September, twelve, two thousand and one and said to them. There will now

be another large scale attack like this in the United States for the next almost eighteen years. You would have thought that that was a wildly optimistic statement. but that's been the case and others because of a lot of different reasons. But one of the reasons is that the FBI has actually been quite competent in its its anti terror mission. So this is an organisation that learned a lot in the almost eighteen years since nine eleven, and I think you know taking them, knowledge. Taking that expertise taking an expertise it is developed in combating the online radicalization from ISIS, which became you are challenging twenty fourteen twenty fifteen and applying those lessons. The all right, I think, in the White nationals, I think we're gonna have the FBI's can an ability to tip publish more than we might think. As I do. I dont think of these guys at these white. I was in the. U S is really

protein, the level of sophistication that does she hottest developed over time were too in about a movement that still largely disorganized. That's comprise largely of Solitary disaffected individuals who art necessarily up to speed on FBI, Anti terror tactics, and capabilities. I think there could be some low hanging fruit with the report. Resource allocation. I don't think it's a cure all. I don't think it into the threat and I think it so separate discussion. We need to have about ending mass shootings, witches mass shooting is one terror tactic, but we a mass shootings problem apart from the white nationalist problem, but I do think some low. He hanging fruit, where the FBI applies additionally forces combined

with some of the same tactics used in the war against international terror, and we can make some real headway here. I think just even getting a knock on the door in an FBI interview would be a giant for a lot of people and at the onset of the FBI's campaigning its clan. The first thing they did. They just interviewed this tentative regime of interviews with all the clan leaders and that itself they found you set at huge fact, but David, the mystic, what you ve just for one other thing. So do you think we need domestic terror law? Charlie mentioned? We legally treat the international threat differently for some very good reasons, but you have people some people now saying. Well, maybe those reasons good enough, and we did a domestic turnoff- I'm not opposed to it. I dont think its material. I don't think I'll make it material impact, one where the other I do I I would say all things being equal. It would be a marginal additional benefit

there are. The FBI has very ample investigate, took investigative tools outside of that, I think it's one of those things that all other things being equal It's some additional benefit. I dont think its indispensable. Suzanne Woody make another aspect of this debate, which is the army. over trumps rhetoric in what he responsibility he bears for these. atrocities. I think you know go from trumps used in food Mccoy Language, too he's inciting acts of mass murderer is completely absurd. I think, would be good for to lower, rather than increase the temperature and I've He has no inclination Do that and I think a lot of things he said are blameworthy, but they dont in any. Way, in my mind, cross the line

Two people legitimately being appoint fingers at him for being responsible in any sense for these. acts, but you you have that going on. You have the head of Corey Booker's campaign in New Hampshire, basically saying trumped shouldn't have rallies, have a rally New Hampshire, because reality rally would just create more violence of this nature. Have some people go even further and saying immigration restriction. Ism itself is inherently four and is part of this toxic brew that creates these white nationalist arrest. You had one character on twitter, even boy.

David from and Ross doubt it who are immigration resurrectionist for these attacks would make of that line of argument. I think it's really observance really frustrating to see this, not only from kind of french people on the left, but also from democratic presidential candidates. You got no better Rourke in Korea, Booker saying that Trump caused the shooting are that Trump is responsible for the shooting because of his rhetoric. I think it's just really talk about irresponsible. That type of commentary is so unhelpful and I think wrong minute downplays. The fact that the present ought to be, I think, speaking we're responsibly and speaking more carefully and not using his boy pulpit to real up people against one another, because there in a racial or ethnic identity is clearly not the case, and I think that the present is wrong to do that when you have people on the other side and saying oh him doing. This is the same thing as inciting violence. It makes it easier for the president and for his supporters is most staunch supporters

Ok, that's ridiculous! In a way of us alone, he used in doing that, and I agree it isn't doing that, but I think it makes it easier for them to try and get him off the hook and incidents Excuse me with any kind of blame for his rhetoric, because the other side is going way too far, and I think that at the same time the president does not take the temperature down of all people in oh, he has definitely responsibility, I think, to be better than that, but he certainly didn't cause the shooting in his because rhetoric contributes to kind of a climate of racial tension. Obviously anything that's been true for a long time that the idea that, because the other El Paso should happen to agree with trumps stance on immigration, therefore trump caused, the shooting is observance. It's an extension. This tactic, I think, of what the left has been up to increasingly over the last few months and they are doing this went alone. Omar came under fire. I guess a couple months ago for some of her comments about nine eleven and president criticized for foreign. There is that video that the president's I guess campaign team put together.

and the people on the left side, what he's inciting violence against are no he's. Not criticism is not the same thing as inciting violence is like thing. I think this is a kind of a new tool of the left is to say any time. Someone on the right attacks on the left verb earlier criticizes their position. Therefore, there are exciting, but once I think it's really dangerous, so Charlie Age, we, Gus offline yesterday and our saying just what they were saying would be good if the President low the temperature and is very unusual for a president, not alone the temperature and- and I said I think I can't remember you present your being this wakes maybe Andrew Jackson, then can it at your came to mind you that economic royalist thing wasn't it wasn't exactly lowering the temperature you pointed out that Brok Obama, you know a lead a war on women which, if you took the words literally, would lead to a call to arms to resist this. This horrible war being waged on her population, so you are

I'm convinced that lowering attempt is necessarily a thing. A present needs to do. While I was, Quite saying that, although I do think that very often when people say we need to learn the temperature, what they mean is you need to be quiet? I dont think its. I dont think that its necessarily surprising, Mccoy Booker, oddly enough, thinks that the way to stop this is for Republicans not to have rallies in election is- and I think very often, when people point fingers at others there trying to get them into being quiet. My point was more that we have selective way of looking at what is supposedly insightful and what is not. and the press plays a role in this and deciding what's outrageous and what is not in driving the news,

Accordingly, I don't like the way Trump speaks. I wish you wouldn't tweet. I wish you wouldn't be as rude as he is. I wish he would speak differently about those people he disdains. He always takes it too far, I think in some circumstances he does absolutely bring the worst out in people. I think it's a very considerable jump to go from that. He is to blame for this. I don't think he's unique. So. I have two views on this and they into said the first one is that, as a rule, we should blame people for their actions. No man is an island, but it is simply untenable in a society that expects robust debate, an open political discourse to blame the acts of evil man on the hyperbole and the polemics ism of participants. Participants within

culture. I wrote precisely that when the southern poverty nor centre was being blamed for an attack on the family Research Council. I wrote precisely that when black lives matter was being blamed for the shooting of police officers- and I wrote precisely that when Sarah Palin was blamed for the Gabby Gifford shooting, The second thing I would say is that if we are to adopt the standard that we have heard suggested by people like Corey, Booker them are going to end up indicting an awful lot of our public figures. the argument against Trump, goes a little bit like this occasionally he. this language that, in Plies, a response, It is unsanitary, for example, if he says invasion, brings up in the minds of his listeners repelling the invasion. What do you

due to an invasion? You repellent? You push back, you open. Five people came over border of the United States. The military would shoot back into Jewels, if necessary, would shoot back This is why we don't like people using words like invasion. Ok, I don't agree with that. I think that's a little over that but if that is our standard than Corey Booker who's the one who made this charge needs to stop talking to, because, when Brett cabin. I was nominated for the Supreme Court, Corey Booker called him. Evil said he was evil, or what do we do to evil? We extirpate evil, we exhausted is it. You can play precisely the same game there and, as you mentioned Barack Obama, in effect, the Democratic Party in General, ran with this

that there was a war on women were. What do you do if there is a war on women? What would we do if there were actually a war on women which fight back? So I think we have to be careful not to apply from stand its trump. Then we would apply to anybody else. I think we have to be careful not to apply different standards Republicans, and we would apply to anybody else and I think we, to be careful to draw a line between dislike of the way the president took believing that is unseemly, unhelpful, that there is no virtue in writing people up that people in public office have a responsibility to talk as if they believe that everyone is equal and is worthy of respect and moving into a place where we start to blame those public figures, whoever they are for acts of

Ireland so and implying that they should be quiet and that an. Of their views, however, mildly expressed your tribe and said Chile trying to shut down the robust debate and strong political culture that marks the United States. David. So I think this is one of these areas where commentary is once again being just obliterated by artisan. So if you look at, if you look at the the cycle of political rhetoric on line It goes something like this, so there will be less just take an example from the left alleys you're, a Cassio Cortez launches this winter war over whether or not we should call em again in detention facilities, concentration camps- and

you know, she makes it very clear in this initial salvo that she's. that she's comparing concept that she's referring. It concentration camps that the Nazis ran during World war, two though the all of the partial partisanship springs into action, so on the one hand, you have the right side, twitter saying how dare you this is incredibly inflammatory. This is incredibly irresponsible rhetoric. Your ratcheting up that the temperature of the body pilot, and then you have the last saying well actually, he's right and it wasn't just Nazi Germany, don't you know anything about history. It was also the Bower WAR she's, not referring to outwit she's. Referring to end you go through this whole thing we are one sided saying I'm to justify why this extreme this extra came ridiculous and I statement is actually correct and the other side is hold on wait a second. This is in Flanders,

This is your get their disturbed people out. There can act on this and guess what a guy those in attacks in immigrant detention Letty. gee, leaves a manifesto. It says the word concentration camp in it now that was in the news for about nine seconds and that's probably generous, and so then he flew, but back around- and you have this Donald Trump repeat ITALY says invasion and there was this: this analysis, spoke at dinner time, steady, said, invasion, thousands of times and he's not just said sort of invasion in this normally in any sort of normal discourse sort of way, but in a tweeting about invasion and the military is waiting for you, which ratchet up even little bit more and so then have the same cycle, this inflammatory this is inflammatory. Many people in the right way will actual hey this is thousands and thousands of people coming to our country without kept without consent. You know that. An invasion window

when the reality is look laboratory language is inflammatory. It is it does have an impact on the body politic has a negative impact on the body politic. You can't draw straight line and the absence of will incitement, as defined by law? That says, Donald Trump caused this attack by saying invasion, or that Alex you're. A Cassio court has caused the anti for attack because she's a concentration camp words have power, and you your words the inflammatory your words can be persuasive. Your words can be divisive benefits in full, amatory divisive and a highly polarized country common sense, tells us the expense and of our lives. Tell us that they that increases the tumult of the country. It increases the temperature of the country and the fact that you can't dry straight line. That is Donald Trump cards.

The El Paso shooting is not in any way shape or form is an argument in court and nobody's making it here. I'm just sort of talking about in the end general discourse is not any way shape or form saying the Donald Trump Rhetoric, about invasions, etc, is fine, it's not, and so, but I am think that, especially in the White nationalist context, this obsessive focus on the president is is misplaced. Of course the We pulpit matters, of course. His words matter, of course, he's influential in the culture yes, but to focus on the president I think is to under state the extent of the the extent of the problem online. It's to understate the extent of the art rights influence and I'm nuts in in parts of the larger right, and I think it on under states in an arm it it

direct from the way in which people are actually radicalized inside. I think the president should cease more responsibly, I think, Elsie should speak more responsibly. I think that our people petitions should exercise leadership and be less inflammatory rather than sort of deciding what is the most inflammatory thing that I can say that my suit supporters consorted back Phil for me to make it sound rational, but it same time. This obsession focus on what politicians say. Mrs the forest for the trees are an exit question to you. and white nationalism, in your view, will wax or Wayne over the next two years. I think, unfortunately, or probably wax. We want it to much worse than we ve already seen in three shooting someone here, but I think, probably lacks unfortunately, chalk up. I think it will wax, but I think that this was a breaking point. Four

many people and the point at which they realize this was a problem to be dealt with. Then, sir, I'm hoping that how that won't be easy will start to see better mitigation. Get french. I think it'll wax through the presidential how do you say wax over the next two years? Basically, it's just that. I think everything's going to get worse so that this would be the two getting worse answer. I do think you're. This is not a good propaganda, fourth white nationalist, but it's a little bit like ISIS were initially the beheadings in and what not drew more dangerous, disconnected nihilistic people to the movement rather than held them, but over the long term. I do think this would burn out and Wolf will figure out choices wasted mitigate it, but I'm not sure that's going to happen in the next

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and it turns out the shooter- I was Leftist- first fond of Elizabeth, worn and Bernie Sanders. Also self avowed, socialist, so aside, Satanist, so that this question What to make of this? He wrote it wrote a piece about that. There's so the fact that seems pretty clearly terrain. She described himself to an ex girlfriend as being escaped Franek. He described being tortured by illusions and worries that he would harm people he frightened people at his high school. He came up with a hit list, a p. for he is eventually going to kill a rape list of people. He wanted to sexually salt There is one day at the school. According to an ape you report were most of the stew,

just didn't show up Khazars scared that he would carry out a NASH hooting, which we make of it out there. I think the shooting has been covered and was covered in right after it happened a lot. partly from the El Paso shooting and in some ways- and rightly so. We still now, a few days after the shooting, don't know really what this person's motivation was. The police haven't announced anything. There was no manifesto. There is no note laughed. He didn't tell anybody that he was planning this or why and he also was killed by police. So he can't be asked about our earth anything else about it, so we now and there is also the little detail that he killed his own sister, and so I think this clearly wasn't primarily politically motivated in the way the El Paso shooting was. It was, I think, as a result of that, it's been covered differently and at root. This man very clearly seem to be intensely troubles you all

things you wasted. It's pretty clear to me speaking as a catholic and someone who believes in the sort of thing. I think this person unfortunately was possessed honestly described himself ass. A Satanist was hearing. These voices said he was afraid of himself. He was in that something called a porno grind band, which I can only agree about three sentences about before I had to stop treating their reporting on it just horrific stuff, and I think this person clearly committed this horrible massacre because he was a deeply troubled person, but at the same time there, been reporting on his left, leaning views. His was very, very online, as we might say do you know, was twinning about politics all the time. In fact, tweeted about gun control attacked his own Republicans, rob port men for not doing enough. In the wake of the parkland shooting spring to definitely left us, and I think you know what we can't, shouldn't say that his shooting was motivated by that, I think had he been treating his support, for them

tromp and then gone and done a horrible thing like this and been troubled by voices and then Satanist and whatever else you can bet would be reading a lot about him in opening on Instagram wearing a mega hat or whatever else, and- and so I guess, there's been a little bit of a double standard in the way this was covered. I think show us on a trip overseas, so nervous isn't a true test because, as with fellow journalists are consumed with covering foreign policy, but they follow the news pretty closely, and at some point I just mentioned to everyone on this guy in dayton- was Bernie Sanders Van. There are shocked in a way that they had heard of it if it had been covered, whereas there is an points out if there had been the slightest hint. That is Trump supporter. Obviously, we would refer her heard about that in great detail, say it. The shootings brings home to me how the most encompassing category of the shooters is disaffected man

Then you have a sub category and there at a thinker, just kind of haters, it might be. People were fired and and go to seek revenge or been jilted by women. A hate women that then there's a sub category of people who are disturbed and run. again it from disturbed all the way to a sort of viable mentally ill, untreated schizophrenia, Many are other illnesses and ask the Dayton shooter strikes me, as is somewhere in that category. Will work, learn, learn more coming days, and then we have the the other sub category of of white nationals that we very discussed hypocrisy point is a fair one and that's not because the Dayton Shooter and the Apostle shooter are the same. It's because that doesnt especially matter. I look at this and I do see them as being very different. I think in the one case you can save the El Paso

as you can say, this was a person who was motive. it is by an ideology. And a political aim. He wrote a manifesto, he explained why he was doing what he did and he was doing what he did to try to change our political status quo. In his cracked mind, he was fighting back against a hispanic invasion what he thought he was dead. There is sufficient evidence in that case to say. Yes, this was a political attack. In the other case, there is not a man in Dayton was crazy. He was all over the place. He alarmed other people. He seemed primarily to be driven by a lust for violence. He had fantasize about killing

and raping he was also a socialist. It is not at all clear that he did what he did, because he was a socialist because he liked Elizabeth Warren because he thought this or that about immigration or health care policy or taxes or what you will, but I think we can save it. quite rightly become irritated. Is that I sell example says if that had been the case of a chump fan. If a Trump fan had been obsessed with, violence had shown signs of mental instability and also happens to be a Republican, I have certain views on what you were. The two would have been completed in a way that they are not being conflated. Tat would have made all of the headlines and we would have read up at after upheld in the New York Times in the Washington Post, about how the two inextricable am, I

Conservatives are also aware that when you actually do have a left wing equivalent of the El Paso shooting, I am thinking of the man who shot up the congressional baseball practice. It tends to be buried. I'd have to say I find it absolutely astonishing that that was not a big. story that it doesn't rebound all the time into our daily politics? Not perhaps it was perhaps that's for a good reason. Perhaps it's because mercifully nobody died. Perhaps if he had succeeded in what he was trying to do and we would have seen if he had the wiping out of what a fifth of the Senate, it would have been a stark live at, but if he had succeeded,

but either way there is a tendency to play down that very explicit political attack and direct political attack as well. One of the peculiar things about the El Paso shooting is quite who the shooter thought he was getting out and he didn't attack and immigration office. You didn't attack the Democratic Party headquarters. He didn't write code of speakers. Have he attacked innocent random people than a woman with a guy in Virginia actually attacked politicians and I do think that it has been treated differently. But insofar as we are evaluating these two shootings, it's important to draw that distinction. One of them was acting out. A political

gender, the other one had a set of political views, but seem to be motivated by something else. And if we are to think seriously about what we can do to stop this sort of violence, we're going to have to keep that bright line between different types of shooters, even if its tempting to do otherwise. the French. I think Charley was with the dead on. In this analysis, I think what we, just a backup for a minute in time about mass, the mass shooting phenomena in general. I think we ve got this problem now, where, if you are. And if you are for whatever your, whatever your motivation for your anger, whether it's yours by jihadists, like the pulse, nightclubs, shooter, whether your inspired by white nationalism, like

the El Paso Shooter, whether your it by all accounts a deeply interested very deeply angry disturbed person in general. Like the Dayton shooter, it seemed like regard was of the them a the means of carrying out or enacting your hatred and rage are, is channeled across all of these different motivations into this one method of mass shootings and so the mass shooting. A sort of these signals, the signature attack of the age. If you person motivated by rage or hatred That's not always in a been it's not always inevitable, or that that would be the case I mean you know in any for a while. There was the there were this there. Mass shootings, for example in Paris. There have been bombings. There have been truck attacks the signature, attack of the militia

era in the nineties was the Oklahoma City bombing in Japan. We saw a and arson attacks that killed more than thirty people theres many ways to enact your rage or hatred, but in the United States it has come to be you regard. Was your motivation is being enacted through these mass shootings and this is this problem. I mean a court kind of deviating Ludovic from question I think, this is one of the most important and is an especially for? Those of us who want continue to protect the second amendment and believe that our current God gun laws or are more or less where they should be, This is a matter of real urgency and, at the same time, it's a matter of its view, elusive to try to figure out how to do anything about it. I'm gonna repeat something: I've said a million. Billion times that I still think when the,

ass things ever written on the mass shooting issue with came from Malcolm Gladwell. In the new Yorker we described it, sort of way slow motion unfolding. Why get almost like that? There is a the each Mass shooting lowers the threshold for the next mass shooting in nature Somebody would be more favourably inclined uncontrolled and me, but he said clearly. Then this circumstance, gun control is not going to be the answer here and that the point of fact. None of us actually know specifically. What is what is this answer, or what are the The answers for it answered it's a matter of extreme urgency. I think, especially as these things continue and that drug it was hard to put into words when you began to see across Twitter the active shooter warnings coming through in Dayton on the exact same day that the El Paso attack happened. This sort of sense that you in that moment of something's breaking here,

something is breaking and and think are a variety of answers to mass shootings. There are several things that we can put together, but I think it's an absolute at be an absolute priority, not just politically but culturally for us to deal with this then exit Jim to you. In your view, in the next two years will finger out a better way to identify, treat and foil if they have vile intentions. Disturb people who might carry out such tax, yes or no, I think that we will, and you know what kind of talk about this is a breaking point already, but I think to seek to mass shootings one again politically motivated the other one. It seems not that two and twenty four hours just huge her effect shootings like this, I think, changes the way that a lot of people look at and think about the debate, and hopefully, I think, makes people more inclined to look for common ground. Maybe we're seeing signs of that really quite yet, but hopefully will show the cook.

I'm, not half ass hopeful. As Zan naively optimistic. I despair. I despair. I dont know what or break as I think it will be broken, I'm not sure when or how. The rich, I think, two things are going to happen at once: we're gonna get better at combating it and it's gonna, but the contagion will spread so I dont know we'll get better locating and in stopping it before it happens, but more people want to do it in so I dont know that will see a decrease ya think to get marginally better, but I agree on our knowledge with a difference it makes. so. Let's dive into the gun debates are reviewed, Charlie Kirk were were hearing it's basically, the same debate we ve had over and over again, except the emergence of an an idea that the David was flagging. No panacea

did a while ago, after an unfortunate alleys, tax run together, but after one of these horrific events of of a reg red flag bill, which is, is a way for further people aware of someone who's disturb hasn't been adjudicated. You know, is not an inner instead Ocean is not guilty of a crime, but still would be a threat and should be denied right to own a firearm and foreseeable future. If the judge Rosa such there seems to be real parson momentum behind that now have Donald Trump endorsing Evelyn, Graham talking about a bill, and then you The wider debate were a kind of the set at same ideas. Come up all the time. Maybe maybe that is not quite right about next. I do think we see people going will further than they have before so typical back comprehensive background check said, the gun show

who paw sought weapons ban and now would you its new? You do have people talking about confiscation schemes Yoda talking about in terms of by backs, but that that basically what's but it's about- My view is that the debate over gun control is limited in its utility to our debate over crime and suicide. I have strong views on that. I've share them with the world over and over again, I am happy to do so here or at any other time. I dont think that gun control has much to do with trying to reduce mass shootings, not people who are absolutely obsessed and convinced

country position. That will sound ridiculous, but I am a country. I think it is obvious if you are determined, as these shooters are to inflict damage in a country that has half a billion guns were not debating this in Japan. With debating this in America, you are going to get what you want most. My shooters are obsessed with other measures that actions are premeditated. Their actions are determined planned most, my shooters do not struggle to obtain firearms. Legally, most my shooters pass background checks. I couldn't find a single shooter, the last ten years, who failed a background check

who obtained a gun privately circumventing a background check, I could She too had stolen their guns because they were too young to buy them, but I couldn't find any shooters when I left, who didn't past background checks, the idea that we're going to stop people killing scores of innocent people by changing slightly the guns that are available to them is ridiculous. It's the product that view a an approach toward their fifty in another, so called assault weapons that sets them on a pedestal. I think that process, incidentally, is why both gun control

activists are so horrified by the fifteen and also why Matthew just pick it, because we have in our call to elevated the our fifteen as if it were super weapon. But it's not it's a fairly standard, semi automatic weapon at the same rate of fires, a handgun you could buy from three hundred dollars and is more, can saleable. The reactions to this, of course confirm what I'm saying within a day to day structure said to Mitch: Marconi have to come back and pass the universal background turbo. Why?

If the argument is- and I again happy to debate this- but if the argument is there is too much crime, there's too much suicide in America and so called universal background checks will help. Ok, let's debate that, but to tie it to these shootings is appalling, especially when this figure such a senator Christmas, healthy do the implication, hair or the explicit argument is to stop this happening again. Universal background checks do not in the second, the ran cooperation does not Patrick Henry style, libertarian outfit reviewed all of the data that it had on thirteen. Gun control measures that have been implemented either federally or the state level last year and conclude

is that not a single one of them had any effect whatsoever on mass shootings. I do not believe that you can stop mass shootings or terrorism. Sometimes we hear it said if a Muslim had shut up wherever we have gun control tomorrow, but that's nonsense. We ve seen that happened not just once twice and we didn't get gun control, and I think that was a good thing, because this is a problem that is extraordinarily complex and is also extraordinarily random, mean they're on patents. There are of course patterns. We ve talked a lot about the young men, certain ideologies, but we are not talking here about limiting crime. We're not talking here about

reducing suicide around the edges, we're talking about a unique problem that is going to be very difficult to stop, and that cannot be stopped in my view, by passing more laws, Laws that will be easily circumvented and a country with this many guns by criminals who are utterly determined, who have no sense whatsoever of right or wrong, don't have any incentives for the long term because they expect either to be killed or to go to prison who obsess over other shooters have utterly disgusting aims like beating high schools. You cannot be this with gun, control and utterly naive to think you can see. The French tells more the red flag idea and why I think its worthy and what potential downsides yeah, so this is essentially an idea that is that it

aimed at. If you look at it, if you look at for mass shootings, any breakdown. What happened in that months days, weeks in front of the of the mass shooting. What are some the common patterns that you see emerging now, not often They don't all fit in the same pattern, but one of the things that you have seen consistently and this is also something that the same with suicide by the way, but some which you have seen consistently it's a lot of. These guys have radio the warning signs or is up Guy Benson tweeted. After seeing some of the stories about the Dayton shooter that these were warning red red flags flapping in the wind that you have seen they ve engaged in there. hey you're. In any case the Dayton shooting at the Dayton Shooter his school a kill any at a rape list. He was expelled when it back to school, so many people is Alexandra said

We are worried about him that hundreds of students stayed home like that this is a guy who had engaged. in conduct. That indicated he was unbalanced, unstable, dangerous. and we have as we as we can, for a long time. We have its view difficult in this country. The processes are very, quite opaque. To have someone adjudicated to be dangerously mentally ill. Luck Foresman its ability to act is more is based mainly on whether or not an individual's engagement and criminally threatening behaviour, and so with them flag law. Does it say when a person has engaged in behaviour that indicates that there are a danger to themselves her others? It will give a dish and in this is, as I believe they should be drafted. It will begin at a defined group of people.

Or members of the household, for example, or educators or employee, has the ability to petition a court with notice and an opportunity to be heard. Be very clear: with notice and an opportunity to be heard and present court with admissible evidence. They provide clear and convincing admissible evidence that a person is a danger to himself or others and should be subject to a temporary fire Caesar order now again It would be an order that could wait have noticed an opportunity for Europe to be heard and an opportunity to appeal so Think of it like this, not unlike the kinds of domestic violence protection orders you have that are common in the United States or restrained Orders in other contexts, our common in the United States, in my view, would have to have a few elements to be constitution. when constitutionally appropriate one is said earlier notice in an opportunity to be heard if they,

Is an emergency what's called expertise, hearing, in other words a hearing without the individual present, they must be given an opportunity very quickly. would say within, say seventy two hours to contest it. You have to a high burden of proof you have to have a right of appeal. The seizure needs to be for a limited period of time, so in this are in and they at the goal would be. To essentially create a breathing space would allow people to receive the help they need. Hopefully, trees grew for there to be that law enforcement to conduct a more thorough investigation. Look. This is not a panacea. I think there's a number of of waste and shootings that we would have helped. I think there the circumstances in which it is suicidal ideation, where it helps in it cases of suicidal radiation is,

implemented a number of states, and sometimes it's been implemented abusively bokassa. These state laws are not good but it has already been implemented in some instances which a lot of people after the order executed have breathed an immense sigh of relief, and so I think that the one of the main dangers is when gun control organizations draft these things, they skimp on the due process protections they allow people to gain God. They allow to many people a large too large, a class of people to seek the order they have to though about the burden of proof they have ah They allow the these seizure orders to be too long. In other words, they just make it too easy for the state to do it better give you a red flag. Was aching. Lou includes these due process protections. This is something tailored at the actual experience of mass shootings, any actual experience of suicidal ideation and

think, and in that way, is very different from the background checks at very different from Even this all weapons ban, because this is something that is targeted at our problem, and it is targeted at an aspect of the problem, for which there is then no proof in theirs previously, no real satisfactory response, and that is what do you do when somebody's radiator in broadcasting. These warning signs. So then, do you think there's any good legislation that makes sense will make a difference. Yeah, I'm a big hand. The gun, violence restraining order, the way David described as long as it has those those types of contracts in its written properly, and I don't really have you know I don't have as much knowledge of the specifics of gun policy like Charlie David do, but I just add from my own experience, not my twenty four year old woman and as a result, I am friends on social media with lots and lots of young people, particularly young women, and in the wake of all these shootings, whether it is here that the massive LAS Vegas

A couple years ago or parkland, or these latest ones, there's always this wave of young people and young women like your friends, acquaintances, posting these graphics on social media, saying, go more gun control now or do something and it so frustrating because you can't you do something we have to do something works and no one wants to think about what actually works and Charlie mentioned the reincorporation study. I know there are some others in a review of literature showing that you go down the list of these policies. Something like thirteen proposed policies wouldn't have stopped a single one of these mass shootings, but because the response from the average kind of uneducated person is so emotional and so Griswold, obviously, and understandably, no one goes beyond do something and I think democratic, huge advantage that people who favour gun control and no better take huge advantage of that sort of got level response of. Please can we just do something and make this stop and don't think about the specific, and so that's why I think that the gun.

I once restraining order, is a great policy- and I think I have mentioned this on our own podcast before, but just I've had experienced kind of pitching this policy to very progressive people, whether you know it one on one discussions or you know, I was on a panel one time too. I think after parkland sort of debating gun control and progressive people kind of stopping listen and they say. Oh actually, you know that's that's something I think I could get behind some kind of hopeful that that people would stop and think about specific spur. Second, that this might be one where there could be some real coming so truly last question for a move on here, so we ve all seen each can't miss it on twitter and elsewhere. The comparisons of the number of a gun, homicides in the United States to other developed countries and yet tend to thousands ear here and

miniscule number elsewhere. So, in your view, is that an acceptable price to pay for this freedom? I reject the premise that the question, because the difference between the countries to which the night this has been compared to the United States. Is it there are already half a billion guns here? So the question before us is: what do we do about that, given that reality Not should we reminded us just search so say blank slate. No second amendment would you would you craft the current gun regime, knowing that there that there be that downside, because you think the advantages outweigh that downside and in the freedom in and of itself so important that it out ways that don't you, may you mean if I, if I were running a simulation, would I, this in ocean in the United States, so we got to where we are now yet. I think that's a difficult

question to answer, but I would be for two reasons probably tempted to hear one is. I think that the right to self defence, the right to barometer maxillary part of the rights of defence, is an individual right that attaches to everybody. By virtue of their being human, ass, David wrote in a peace we published yesterday You do not want to find yourself unable practically speaking to defend yourself, especially in a country that is as big as the United States is perhaps easier to consent. to realize that right differently in Singapore than it is in a country with him.

Tanner in it and acquiring in it and a huge amount of space that is very, very far away from the police, the FBI and everybody else? And the second reason, though, be tempted to is that, while I think we should do what we can to prevent suicide send to prevent crime and crime and suicides are much bigger problem when it comes to guns than then my shootings are sought to downplay mass shootings has just statistical fact. I am also aware of what has happened over the last century when governments have got out of control and hundreds of milk The people have been killed, hundreds of millions and

arguments that are laid out at the time of the founding of the Federalist papers and by various jurists he discussed the second amendment anticipated that to some extent, but I don't think they could have even dreamed of what would happen in Nazi Germany and Russia and China and elsewhere, and so it is against that that we would have to weigh your question. It's it's. It's a tough one. I also thank those moot we're making policy in the country we have in the country we have is not Japan answer at every point. We have to proceed according to what we are looking at in front of us. And not what some people at CNN would like us to be. Looking at so s, question to you. First, David French gun legislation. Besides a red flag bill will pass Congress, yes or no.

Almost certainly night, with a caveat that maybe background checks, because Donald Trump keeps talking about but I would say five percent chance at anything other than a red flag law passes SAM. I don't think so it's hard to see how public and send it would get on board with anything. look out- would want to know- and it's worth pointing out, that the Red flag law that could pass is not so much red flag law Red Flag, Laura said allocation of funding for the states. Should they choose to put in their own red flag was yes. The answer is clearly no sir. Before we go, let's hit the few other items David. You haven't depressed by what you consider erroneously. With the August sports drought

It's terrible, rich, it's just a terrible and be every agency is over rafter. You can't! You can't see much NBA Mba, guys not playing defence author, and it is even worse than that, because you know I haven't seen any in actual NBA action since the end of June College for boys and started yet the commentary about NBA Free agency is now over. So all were left with is universal, I've got rights net right now is HBO hard, knocks end the Oakland Raiders Trading Camp and I'm sorry. This is not enough sports for me and then there, this baseball stuff going on, and I have to tell you that baseball twitter. Is even more boring than watching a baseball game. If that even possible, and so I'm just in despair rich, I mean I'm just count down the days, so counter to this erroneous belief and in August sports drought Sandy, you want to canvass yards.

That's my daddy. I did because baseball actually is the passport, while time and arrest is very good baseball, especially when the Yankees are leading them. your legs and getting to play. The Baltimore those who are very much not leading the mutually and whence I think there are on paste- or maybe we was a hundred games in fact eyes there last night there's a downpour, unfortunately, in about six o clock, so the game got delayed but still end up being a great game got to see If you set three home runs in one evening, got to see a pre hilarious but also someone unfortunate play, outfield and Orioles player led by a butterfly bar was ok, you know got right out, but I'm not really sure how that happens or Canada. you're thinking I haven't seen her baseball game before about lots of on August baseball is great not as good as October baseball, but I don't have any home runs- totalled the Yankees head and again I think five Charlie.

They are the heavy five and then six today before us five, the day before and six last night at the door to keep track. There's just so many an unjust, not sure that there is any place where the ball carries better or seems to carry better then cabin yards in a night game in August and my talk, man is the need new GEO, Rochelle, every always at tat. He robbed a home run was great. My good. save the Yankees had another home run against the or else this evening. I think I am right in saying they will have the record for the most home runs hit and a single season against another,

Everyone is in every play now, a home run or a strike out, or you don't wash baseball. So I think we need to answer as nice. Boy isn't like is thought to underline that the social you recently hunting occasion to enjoy cretin food in Crete. Nonetheless, we went there from my vacation. my whole family was then I have been set they were staying to have these restaurants sat on the side of the hill and you look out and see the mountains behind you and then the sea, with that particular blue collar you find in the Mediterranean and most of these restaurants don't have rules on them. They just outside have a roof over, but then the side of the restaurant is is open, and so you can never enjoy them.

Breeze coming through and the food there is this terrific it? It is a little one pays we were. There must two weeks by the end of address was dying for hamburger, but the food is absolutely terrific. I'm anything interesting to me just how different food is on each of the greek islands, because, as a kid I went to Cyprus more than to create, and when I got to create this time my brain of got scrambled and I thought our Halloo me and look any Kern shifting They didn't have any of it, but tat they do have had a cheese, not a fresh vegetables they'll models which vine leaves besides geeky home is the whole range it it's. It's just bills, fresh and especially sitting outside in the Sunshine retreat

I had occasion this week to cross over the international dateline, which I'm not sure I would recommend, but it isn't in sharing experience were literally became us on this trip by the with six, a secular state MIKE Bumpo, whereas is about twenty four hours on the plane or more to get. Did Bangkok, Thailand? Dc and now we want to Sydney, Australia, and I we briefly stopped and a cup of waste is an and micro nature and then flew whew, based within the twenty hours back but it was briefly Tuesday morning and that afflict back to Monday morning, and just so we could have one point in a few hours earlier. We were fourteen hours ahead of EAST Coast time and then all of a sudden, you

This year, we land in Honolulu Year six hour to refuel your six hours behind Sykes experience Monday twice this week and if you're on an airplane for both of those Monday is neither Miss names. that great a time so with that hit are errors, picks Dave French, which your back mine is Charlie, absolutely eviscerated. Adding a New York Post editorial call for an assault weapons ban that No, I just wish people who are going to write about gun control knew something about. The gun Is there a writing about, and Charlie made that point eviscerated it brilliantly and reminder once again, as I said about romance shift

weeks ago remind me not to get on Charlie's bedside said: Montague David's peace from yesterday my family has been threatened by racist. Why should they outgunned me? I think the peace does a really good job of answering this sort of very common, sloppy ways: the argument from gun control advocates which is well. You know there are. Fifteen, is a weapon of war or the alternative. No one needs guns like this. Won't you actually, sometimes people do and no it's not a weapon of war. So read that if you need a good way to respond people making those arguments Charlie, which your pick my pig is by Clayton Kramer and I must confess to being a little throw to have been in charge of an hour Owen. Craven taken Kramer reference, Clayton Kramer.

Is the guy who eviscerated a book by Michael Bela's Isles, the turn out to be a fraud, but with good arming America, and the premise of the book was that the widespread gone ownership that is now unique to the United States was invented in the late nineteenth century by corporations essential. because his absolute nonsense in Katyn Kramer who done a lot of work on this realized it immediately, and he eventually had Microbe Alice Ass removed from his position and disgrace, and his Bancroft price taken away from any help. Clayton Cramer has written a piece for us pointing out the term. There are lots and lots of ways to kill people, unfortunately, and those who want to do so around the world find ways of doing so. Extremely potent ways- and I

its useful in helping us distinguish between how we think about crime and how we think about suicide and how we think about mass shootings in mass attacks, because We have really around the world at the moment is a tendency toward mass casualty attacks more than we do mass shootings specifically and Clayton Kramer's researching, at the very many ways in which people inflict a lot of damage on each other, makes that case one. So my pick is a piece in the forthcoming print addition by our friend and colleague, Buckley Fellow, a Madeline earned and mad went out to Ellen. And did a right of around with the vice squad do piece about prostitution and talk about what really truth prostitution is and why it is extremely a bad idea.

To legalise it or in any way a valorize sex work and how just inherently trafficking it is caught up in an all the so called a sex work, and I especially appreciate journalists to delve into a really unpleasant topic, because it's it's so important and- and this piece is- is really belongs in that category hard to read at times, but very important ok, that's it for us. You ve been listening to a national review. Podcasting broadcast retransmission cow this game. Without the express written permission of national you magazine strictly prohibit this podcast have been produced by the incomparable Sarah should he makes a sound better than we deserve. Thank you.

I think you, David thank yous and thanks to Dividend CAFE, and thanks specially to all of you for listening. We are the editors, see you