Today on The Editors, Rich, Charlie, and Jim discuss the nationwide riots and lootings, the president’s poor performance during these outbreaks, and the hypocrisy surrounding the media’s coverage of the chaos.
• Rich: Kyle Smith’s piece on not encouraging the rioters.
• Charlie: Dan McLaughlin’s piece “The ‘Very Fine People’ Trap and How to Avoid It Today.”
• Jim: Rich’s piece “Yes, Meet Rioters with Overwhelming Force.”
• Rich: Making guacamole.
• Charlie: The SpaceX Launch.
• Jim: Space Force.
The Editors is hosted by Rich Lowry and produced by Sarah Schutte.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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thanks, so Jim Garrulity. We had Donald Trump addressing the nation yesterday evening, classic dynamic where everyone,
was brain for him to address the nation, and then we did. It was like nope that wasn't a good idea. Shouldn't have said it should have addressed the nation, also controversy. They clear the the block in front of a Saint John's church, which was lit on fire the night before so you can go and have a photo off and hold up a bible somewhat awkwardly and someone awkwardly be surrounded by some of this
a top AIDS. What do you make of it? You know rich. The argument of now is the time for the president to give a unifying speech and addressed to the country that
Gets everyone to calm down?
set aside their anger. This this is a relic from other presidencies. This. This is something that hatred, american president, could traditionally do
that many presidents have done in the past to varying levels. Success
very rarely. Does it by itself. Stop rioting, stop violence! Stop in things like that. But generally you know most people give the president credit for trying you can think of
George W Bush during allay riots and ninety ninety one. Ninety two
or organ Obama during Ferguson things like that they ok, while the president is trying. I dont think this is really
In the nature of president Tromp, I don't think this is really in the instincts of president Trump. President Trump believes all life is competition.
President trumps sees everything as an eternal clash between himself and the groups that he likes against. The groups that he does not like
There is really no indication that President Trump,
Wrong on a significant scale with american police forces. I'm glad to see that he has expressed sympathy to the family above of George Floyd, that he, you know
currently does Billy's partly watch the video. Apparently he really did. It really did bother him but find
large trump is not a guy who was beat the drum, but the need to reform police training workers,
but racial disparities and police violence, or anything like that. These are not issues that stir him and motivate him.
The open window? Trump talks about crime, the answers
most always there's.
To let the police need to get tougher and in fact, on his conference call, but the governor ass. He kept insisting that you need your police to dominate the street,
any out every book. Every problem for trump boils down to the fact that he is strong and the other people.
Not as strong as he is when he talks
but these issues still believes that a central part, five or guilty there's a speech
one of the police on Long Island, where he said that tell you no stop covering the heads of the purpose of the criminals when you put him into the Patty wagon as an irish American I was not
We bothered by the phrase, but it is a little archaic, rapist
but my father said when he sees cops covering the hell you're putting her hand on the head of the guy who's being put off the back of a squad car, because he beheld Trump things that you should protect. Their heads
ah might hinder the White House overjoyed summit and I listen to many Cabot. Second.
Is lay out many thoughtful nuanced, detailed proposals about how to deal with european crisis
in the country. The president showed up, and his glowing contribution was that we aren't executing drug dealers trump
always sees things as its about it's a matter of force. It's a matter of strength that the matter of dominance and
those who, as a result of it, you try to go to further the country from the oval office and in a jig red,
Luther kings letter from a Birmingham jail. He could read you don't Nelson Mandela's autobiography or quote God. None of that's gonna matter now
the matter, because the people in the streets don't care what down from thinks says. I also
like. I think trumps supporters like the fact that he never tells them. We are part of the problem. We need to do better
Don't from never tells Americans that they need to improve themselves. You never ass. Ask yourself what your country can do. What you can do for your country
not me. He is that's not his message. It's never been part of who he is so the idea.
The dull troubles gonna come out and say: hey America, it's time to calm down it's time to put aside our
differences it's time to lay down the vague
Checks for using the bricks said the reason to break store windows. It was now
going to work and I think it's kind of
baffling to see the number of people who seem to think that that would be a good idea that would likely or that it would eventually be part of our path to a return to peace.
Obviously, the speech, the emotive emphasis was not on sixty of four for the victim or family or in his hand,.
For unity, although all that was in their appropriately enough. But what? What? With the real puncher that the speech was about law and order
I think we need to separate out two questions
one is president trumps performance per se, how he behaves what he said.
He did and the other is the power
of the executive branch and the appropriateness of
It playing a role in restoring order on Trump.
He is incapable of rising to the moment.
So difficult at the moment to discuss any of these questions, because even when trumps words or actions discredit him, the poor
cannot help itself but lie about what he said and did. I agree,
There was not enough focus on George Floyd, but he did mention him David concept. Afterwards, he didn't mention. You didn't mention the proximate caused these purchase seed, it
he said that he has been has been consistent on that all long to you said
he had been brutally murdered. I heard it with my own ears and he said that Americans were rightly second and revolted.
The response was that he hadn't mentioned why this was kicked off in the first place and that he had become a dictator.
But the speech wasn't good enough, it will
have a good enough. He is incapable
of making it good enough. I don't.
Leave. There is some universe in which even the greatest
President, Abraham Lincoln could, by sheer force of his words, stop this and we now he couldn't twas the civil war.
I do believe Trump has a responsibility to do better and
Much worse than the speech was his stance at the church. From what I am.
Police and secret service cleared a peaceful protest that was conducted
prior to the arrival of the curfew in order.
For president trunk to walk across to a church.
Nothing wrong with he's going to that church. The church was vandalized appallingly, but first off
if a president is told Sir,
you're going to have to remove peaceful protest is used, tear gas and rubber bullets. If you want to do that, he should say that I'm not doing it or other at a different time. Second
if he's going to go there, he might
To do a little more than transparently hold up a book is almost certainly never read. You might want to talk. Reed pray
even Joe Biden- seems capable of that.
So I don't think it was a good performance where
became extremely irritated by the reaction was,
in the assertion that for Trump to talk about using the insurrection ACT was to declare war and Americans or to become a dictator. This is not true. This is nonsense.
I watch some news after it and I saw people
I know about the insurrection act that it was last used in eighteen, o seven,
and it was last year in ninety. Ninety two during riots writes that at all
who dissimilar to these, although they were com
traded in one place, and they were worse in their outcome at least thus far.
I am once again confused.
By how progress
If then, the news media and is a great deal of overlap between those two groups- see power.
A civil libertarian, I'm a classical liberal to my call,
but I am not an anarchist. I accept that we need it
government, and I accept that a prerequisite to liberty and too
the protection of individual rights and human flourishing is peace.
That is a role here for government. I think at them.
And it would be unwise for the president to
the insurrection ACT, partly because I think that we are far more likely to see.
A peaceful resolution, if that work is done by the states-
Secondly, because many in the states seem not to want federal intervention and thirdly, because
although it is a law that has been passed by Congress.
And that is consonant with the constitution. It should be
used as a last resort, but to talk about it.
To reserve the right to use it is not to assert yourself as a dictator is to exploit
Since this is one reason we have a federal government
not a modern invention, the federal guy.
But was involved in putting down rebellions and rights right from the beginning during George, what,
Britain's administration. I can't find
principal hair on when government should intervene when government shouldn't intervene, that isn't either
entirely self serving all that is.
Changed simply because President chump is in the White House. I think that the press should reflect on that.
Because the people who are getting primarily hurt here,
are also american citizens. Men,
them are also african Americans. This is not good for evil. This is
complicated situation that was supported by a horrible event, an event. That is
king its way slowly toward the courts as it should,
reflexive opposition to policing
and to any federal involvement is not going to help
So this is the one area,
those rights slightly disagree with Jim
you'll find no disagreement. For me on the inadequacy of this. President you'll find no defensive.
Stunt last night, you'll find no pretence that he is up to the job
But he show that he was up to the job yesterday,
but at one level this is actually about forcing strength, not in the way Donald Trump defines it or expresses it.
But it's a matter of rural fact. This is about force and strength. That's how you stop riots, that's how you save people's lives and livelihoods and property and communities is with force and strength,
not against protests, not against speech,
not against assembly,
against rioting, which is none of those things and needs to be separated out from it. So it looks like bracket how your spine
the rights of a little books would want to get it into more under the excitement
but general tone in on the the church internet. For me, I should have done it should have done this
way. But my levelled outrageous is kind of low. Maybe you can convince me otherwise, one the curfew was about to arrive and it would very very soon be an unlawful,
assembly. It wasn't so their Billy Club, Tina
Chicago nineteen sixty eight style there there moved away from this church. I understand it:
I, too want to go, show the flag at at the church as a message, but obviously the way to do it would have been a figure out a more deft way. You know, if you know you want to do this in summit. That was some a warning in this. The other promises were thrown together in a couple hours. You may get the barricade set up at four a m, so that block
is no longer open to this the protesters or you do at the next day. You do it in our cooperation with the leadership of of the church in and you go in and new.
You prairie have something to say, rather than the this somewhat ridiculous spectacle
Yeah I mean ok, I'm an eight point. One
You're correct that this would be better to done earlier.
For those who are particular objections to the methods used to clear the streets in front of an equally whether way, clergy at that church,
Right before we started taping Neil Augustine as Rapporteur, with W P, o p here in Washington,
look to someone in the park police who said the tear gas was never used. It was smoke canisters instead, smoke canisters did not have an account.
Irritant in them,
Ah he says if her this partly source as they did not know trump- would be walking crossed the park several minutes later.
The crowd was disperse with smoke canisters, because at that moment, officers being pelted with water bottles and that protesters inclined to topple
Structure at the north end of Lafayette Square, the burned the day before censure so loud.
That is an that scenario. The Jim would just be a coincidence. Bats
I think a lot of people will have.
Our time buying that- and I do know the all
this happens in the context of
presidency and just a general interaction between police and the public that has been built.
Each year by year, and one of these
comes to mind. Is that you do not supposed to lie. Why you're not supposed to lie will want because it's wrong, but also because this
the boy you cry Wolf right,
You lie. People will not believe you when you have something important to say
This is a presidency and an administration that has squandered what
credibility. It had when it took office bit by bit day by day,
in everything from
fancy office, furniture for DE cabinet. Secretaries too,
Miss Daniels to a million and one little it a little insignificant cases over there's. So when the press
it, needs to communicate something to the country. People
already tuned about people already, Skype
People already don't believe him Sophia's if communicate very important health information dealing with the corona virus. People may or may not believe him when he said,
As you know, I have come here to pray for. I have come here to this church. People don't believe him. He holds
the Bible and Erode observes. How does it look like a cracked open right to Corinthian
Works against the president at a moment like this. They simply don't believe he went there.
Genuine sympathy for the church and for thee, be violence had happened. The night before
I believe that its a photo up, because we ve seen this presidency focus on photo ups, pretty much since the beginning
so there's this know that there's no credibility left in the cupboard to turn to theirs. There's no risk
herbs of hey I mean it now.
You think I got cynical and exploitative proper. You know you know motivation.
As for everything else, that I do but right now I mean it because I'm genuinely horrified by this act of violence against a church. You know this,
There's nothing there, and so I you know.
I really don't know what the President thought he was going to accomplish their. I can't help. It suspect that a portion of it had to deal with the facts.
Some folks said that he was cowering in the White House because he was taken to the bunker anyway.
To demonstrate that in some way, but down in that had to be that had to be part of that
not like Trump ever could have gone out and met with some of the protesters. Even though we ve seen police officers and police chiefs managed to interact with protestors,
in a non violent and constructive dialogue with Trump could never do something like that. Has no interest in doing something like that.
And so the idea that, by going to the church he do some sort, but both by his reputation
by the way, he's preserved in the job so far, and just by his
personality and instincts, I don't think there's any role. I have a hard time,
picturing any constructive role that he can play in
solving this crisis? Checkbook
question to you rate down trust performance in this crisis. So far from zero to five zero, abysmal, five transformative and historic, I think it so one, I don't think it's abysmal
It's not good enough and, unfortunately, not good enough when combined with a lot of baggage, most of which is deserved,
role of it is that it gives him a negative influence to bear
So when Charlie says a negative influence to semi were allowed to use negative numbers, you can't it's that's look Thompson play
if it's it's zero to one, you noticed it look at
point that eventually vial.
Spy, looters and violence by people who are
engaged in an arctic orgy of
structure of other people's property. Sure you got even worse for that. But you know Trump by his reputation in previous comments in previous attitudes
is eliminated any sense of moral authority that he has to invoke those arguments. He puts the police
back in Bali pulpit?
I'd, say a one. Maybe if, amid generous up up to two, the tweets have been really bad.
The speech, I like a lot of it. The themes- and I think there there are important and appropriate but kind of crude the church start not rate. I dont think any. This really makes a huge difference and what's happening on the ground and we'll get to that in a minute
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Racial jack, nap, so Charlie. Let us talk about what's going on in the streets.
Yes, Sir Majority, the protests have been peaceful, but we have seen
heinous acts of violence, the dynamic
violence. Is it always trump?
the the injustice that precipitated it, so we ve seen,
innocent chop owners having their livelihood destroyed even being beaten.
In the streets we ve had looter shot if had cops, shot solve, has been perpetrated by Anti fa. Clearly that there are three.
Videos exist and some of them are are really quite joyful to watch when the black protesters confront these invariably skinny. I've never seen a fat Antigua militant but confront these anti forgot
and take away this break, hands or hand them over the cops or as they put that breakdown of behind
it's here, but then belief is based the a
It is clearly not anti thoughts. Local residents in these communities,
what you're saying just a little earlier. It's it's. My strong belief is based on historical record and and common sense. There.
You have to crush a disorder of the sort loftily, but you didn't impose an early curfew. You need all the forces you that you can muster. If you don't have enough police, you need the National Guard and you enforce the curfew. You
as many people as you can, who are defy you and and you re, impose order, and we ve seen as many apples. He saw two approaches very starkly at
we don't be provocative. We do want to be as good or I will give them the third police precinct. You know that thou be the sign of good faith and they gleefully burn down the third police precinct and loot all over the city, and that happens for a couple knights have very few arrest and then it set an embarrassment to all the authorities involved in is that ok were sending in the National Guard, we're getting serious about it and over the weekend, and last night recording unto
tonight. We're remarkably peaceful Minneapolis was was more orderly, then allow the other citys around the country, so that this progressive idea that say it can have a police mass of police presence could is too provocative is completely
headed and erroneous. Will you say all of the rich, but did you know the antivirus stands for Anti Fascists and David?
Dave Hoax Father was member of Antifa forces, indeedy goodness
me what'd, a adagio that is maybe
Most s moronic argument equivalent to saying that the democratic People's Republic of Korea must be virtuous.
Look at the name. I think we need a good deal of force, her
I'm somebody who has no interest in fighting. I dont like watching fighting.
I don't like thinking about fighting, I want peace, peace, trade, prosperity,
I don't want a war,
One skirmishes and no one riots, not interested.
I also believe we should, as a nation, have a substantial defence budget. Doesnt mean copycat, doesn't mean
combat trimmed, but as a rule, we should have a substantial defence budget, because sometimes bad act is vital.
My wish is for a peaceful world and when they do, I want the United States.
To be able to respond or better
In the first instance, I think the same
apply here. If you invite
Another country, you lose your innocence,.
You changed the rules on the ground and at that point the question becomes. What do we do to protect me,
Recent parties, the ones who never wanted the incursion.
That's true of writing. It is true.
Most of the protests have been peaceful, but this
Slogan is useful. Only in response to the question have most of the protests been peaceful data.
Nothing about how we respond to riots in
the same way ass. But what about blackened on black
crime is only a good response. If
Somebody is suggesting that it doesn't exist or that the vast majority of crime is committed by white people against black people
I have to say this on. The right is Dodge, although it about black on black
crime- ok shop, but we're not talking about that here. We are talking about a white police officer, killing
black man and we're not talking about the peaceful process which are fine worthwhile, we're talking about the riots. So what do you do.
I dont think you in some way discredit your support of protests of peace of democracy, of.
Calm calls for change.
By putting down riots and in fact I think the opposite is the case. I think that you help the peaceful protestors
I think you help the innocent, I think you help the downtrodden.
And I think politically you make it more likely that the protests will prevail or at least be given a seat at the table. When you put down riotous riotous have walked outside the social contract, riotous kill people deliberately and inadvertently they destroy property,
What property has been levelled somewhat derisively but properties, not some abstract concept.
Thought some number and Bill Gates Bank account for most people property
is their home, their front doors that business. It's that
belongings, they ve spent years working for to give to their children and their friends and their parents.
The government has a responsibility to protect that against those who do it harm and
I'm with you on this rich. I have seen no evidence that,
walking away from rioters, helps and
I see no evidence on the farm
ignoring aggressors helps anything I think to protect peace and commerce and prosperity and protest and debate. You need to be prepared to step in against those who throw bricks.
Out of cocktails and who still sure, there's a scale hair, it's less
actively upsetting when somebody Robson Niemann Marcus. Then it is minority in grocery store in a poor part of town.
But we can't think like that. We either have rules or we don't, and I dont like rhetoric that glorifies the response. I think they should.
Be absolutely no tolerance for for good,
HU, it is violence, but there
nothing wrong with police departments and then
Oh god, if necessary and private sit
and in their own property, from pushing back against this, you cannot have a society if they dont said Jim.
One possible glimmer of a silver lining, and all this at least for the moment, and not sure this whole stick on laughed but
at the moment. We all despise Antigua.
What you see it and the other night and Chris Cuomo seemed to have hawks eye out for it for any potential Antigua elements it in these crowds? You had the minutes
Governor others blaming outside agitators. Now I think that's that's d
they're not really outsiders, you gotta, these anti per act activist, are indigenous
but the clearly been an element of this: they come with Sprague hands. They come with the bricks,
and it's good, if even just for now, it's good that it's more widely recognised what a hideous and rancid group this is.
Yeah, I think you know, as this week progresses. You're gonna see more and more semantic arguments, but who actually qualifies as anti far?
You know if you're on the right, you see some kid: a hoodie who's got a man addressed head to toe and black. Maybe they ve got the anarchist insignia on them.
Running through the streets and throwing a brick through a window. You ok, well that's anti far and I suspect
you're still gonna see this number people on the left. As he's arrest come in to say, well, look bad enough:
membership card. They weren't formal
Member of the organisation they weren't. You know they don't really count as Anti Father. Just some random
thuggish young kid who just you know, has another no broader lessons to be taken and should not smear the guy
name of anti far with the actions of this person more.
Later the I agree with a great deal of what Charlie said, but
the observations were theatre. The oh was an old joke about
what year review? What what does Europe?
on industrial policy and subtly responded. I think we should have one veto.
The I believe in law enforcement. I think we should have some and I can't help it
notice that you having happens conversation as of this morning. Dozens of people
who arrested over the weekend in the district Colombia ah were released,
custody Monday appearing on court and charges, clytie, burglary, destruction of property, amend and violate the curfew. Ah, beach
large. A felony riding was dropped by prosecutors in almost all cases, a hundred six arrests from Saturday through early Monday and almost all of them have been freed pending future court appearances. So if you have it yet,
we are the police crackdown yeah, I'm not so sure. If the prosecutors message is, we dont think these laws are worth enforcing weed
I think these charges are worth Precario going forward with I'm not sure how
active. That is, and I cannot can't help it also think of the example of the Raleigh Police Chief, who declared quotes. I will not put an officer in harm's way to protect the property inside of a building.
I mean, if you're, really, if, if, if police or or other people in society, are unnerved by the thought of armed store keepers like we saw the
in communities in Ellie Riots back in nineteen. Eighty two, then you're
probably going to see, allow
boiled. You see a lot more of this once the police say: hey, I'm not protecting your property because
the way the line. Yogurt tubes country elaborate on Charlie's point the line between
Property life gets really blurry. When somebody
is burning down or trashing a pharmacy
pharmacies, the only way people can get life's life's saving life supporting that occur when it has a bedroom upstairs and you don't know who is asleep in it corrects is it
isn't there are. Apparently you know this police, chief and various other folks are simply not interested in doing their job.
They're, not India. They decided. We dont feel that we feel the risk is too great or we feel this is simply not worth it. This is not worth the possibility,
of us getting hurt or some so the first thing we would need to do. This would be to have lost all of lawn
were spent in all of these cities that are affected by this and to have all prosecutors are the same,
Page that these laws are worth being in than forcing because if some chunk of them believe what's not really worth enforcing
and you're going to get going to get more of this
This is a really despairing moment. It is also worth noting, though, that like I'm, I wonder for those of us
memories of New York City, the nineteen Eightys, the Bertie, gets
the pre Giuliani era Crown heights all of that, whether whether cities
come back from this and whether you'll see a similar come back from this
I also note, like I mention the Ellie riots a few moments ago. You know they were pretty much John after three
days, but there is a little bit a thing it will, but here and there, but by the fourth day this measure will get
discussion of whether it's worth its call out the National Guard
the National Guard federal troops, pretty much had arrived by the fourth day.
The interesting tribute question you know who's in charge of the Marines, in a way that I, for one s, chief of staff, John Kelly relates yeah.
Asked that this was a.
The issues we look. You can look at that point to it as an example of a success about what can happen when you put
regarding the streets to restore order
You could say that by the time they got on the sea
in their full capacity.
The city had already been traumatized. The city had already been horrified by what they witnessed on their streets
not sure that if you tried this in a variety of cities in you know, you know across the country right now whether you would have that similar calming effect, and I think it's because in it all again context is key.
Or a lot of people who would see this in these incoming national guardsmen as some sort of occupying force. Maybe would calm things down out of sheer fear of confronting the national guardsmen, but I think in some case
is that what the enough, though,
separate things, they get anti farming
they believe there were already answered the question. As you know, we have the art.
Of the police, which appear to be not entirely on board,
thus released from the prosecutors, are entirely on board
or the National Guard, which can switch, brings considerable possibility of heightening the tensions here. I just I just reject that. I think that the
the national Guard. Establishing order at night is absolute necessity in places that are out of control and
All in favour of these conciliatory gestures. We see some really amazing. Things are some small town
where it was a couple days ago with the sheriff was talking to protesters news. I can. I hope this is a parade. You know. I'd want to create competition on thing had taken off his helmet Tina dropped its baton in
He said why I want to know what you you guys want from me in there I work with us and he walked with them out those often, but there are situations in major.
It is in America. That's not that's, not possible or might be possible times during the day is not possible at at night and what, wherever in and riots, when
further. The authorities retreat or they don't show up it. It gets worse at that happen and allay the major precipitating that obviously the ruddy king verdicts, but what really set it off was there is a comfort,
we'll just about twenty thirty cops, whatever it was near, the intersection of Florence marauders go and that
We words, bottles thrown and one cup on board,
you know what it's not it's, not worth it, let's get out of here, and they similar just ran. They laughed and they didn't show up again for hours and these marauders go to that that intersection and beat motorists broadcast everywhere around the world and the city ends up up in flames. You know, sixty people end up dead over the next couple days, two thousand more than two thousand injured more in the billion dollars in and property,
damage, and it could have been stopped at the beginnings this history, the water I at the Detroit Riot Ferguson. We heard similar arguments that the National Guard jobs can. It
why the situation? No, they they they actually stylish dumb established order, and just the last thought in this it's just last night in New York City was appalling. I mean you decide these bands of kids like organised, you know they had their cars, ready, they drove up to one establishment broke. The windows ran in windows as much as
they could ran when the cops showed up or just gotten in their cars, and they want the next place and a concert totally is totally out of control,
and it just goes out ready, Giuliani approach was completely opposite and the needle
depend almost probably too far the other way, you'd, always back the cops almost no matter what by was to avoid this thing, and you hear quite
Jim without once, cities will recover. You know we have seen anything on on the scale of delay
in eighteen, eighty, two or Detroit, sixty seven nor or new workin.
Sixty is Washington DC city that took decades later to recover. We have seen that sort of damage, but New York City. I just wonder I mean that the lock down and that the cove it was was bad enough, and then you have this on on top of it so Charlie Tee to you. What do you make of it? We ve seen attempt to defend the disorder in calling it an opera
as you know, call riots. You know this is an uprising and the most extreme version of this defence is that this is like
american Revolution. How can you conservatives revere the founding fathers who undertook this? Does violent action against stir unjust government and be appalled at what's happening in our
today, by adopting the the comparison works.
The fund is took on
british government with the aim of overthrowing Dave
Went to war with the
colonial power. They formed an army, the Continental Army,
Had a declaration in which they announced their separation in their intentions and they openly discussed among themselves that if they were captured, they would be hanged.
Their aim was to replace the government
And form a new one.
I have not heard anyone even the most enthusiastic backer of the rioters.
Casting the operation.
To use that term is revolutionaries
speaking. There's a reason for that, given the.
Fantasy that many aggressive have putting down revolution is a fantasy that is often expressed
and has been expressed by Joe Biden too in the context of debates,
The second amendment, I think
that the confusion hair over,
revolution, riot and protest is
Why so many people say back off, but it's a good idea that the authorities were Lee
when their rights, because
making a leap that cannot be made if you overthrow
The government, which means attacking the government, not autism, if you open
throw the government you or the government. You are in charge. If you don't
to overthrow the government, you create a vacuum. If the government then leaves someone's
I feel that.
And what fails? It is chaos, violence,
blurring lines, a lack of logic,
Mitchell Authority, the founding fathers
did not say we want
burn down this or that we want them
ready to go home, but we will put
institutions in their place, I didn't say,
There is now no law, they said
we have been on the end of a long train of
Grievances in usurpations am, we are finished.
That is a coherent view. If that view
Being outlined by these protesters, it would be coherent the idea
that I would have to endorse it, because I think that the American Revolution was on that. A good thing is, of course, extremely silly. One can have different views of different revolutions. It's not,
One time deal you ve bought into one revolution. You now must acquiesce to all the others, but it would at least be coherent, but that's not what's happening. What
bidding. Is the selective.
Undermining of the law, and you simply cannot have that
is absolutely true that if the founders had been caught that they had lost, they would have been hanged. What possible other conclude
and could the British Empire have come to they
happily, they want I'm happy that they one I'm not
goes to all.
if you are not going to go that far.
And if you are not prepared to attack the government and overthrow it,
then you really have only one
choice and that's protest.
Is no grey area aloud.
There's no middle point. Its democracy programme
following the law free speech
or its revolution and right
it tries to split the difference, but you cannot split the difference, because all of the laws that are being broken is still in place. I think this is,
an absolutely silly talking point that is not comparing like with like
and that is romanticizing wanton lawbreaking by comparing it to something that it cannot be compared to and that, if pushed
to shove. Those doing the comparing would not want to be compared to because we know what
come and governments due to insurrectionists. So.
Let us not lose sight of an and go back to the precipitating incident here, the arrest of George Lloyd and his
Death. We had the reference we have seen that the report, but it in the complaint that
said medical examiner says he didn't die of fixation. We have the
topsy for family saying. Yes, he did. The the
Medical examiner report opens up the possibility
Air coroner type defence. While this might look terrible, you know, but it wasn't a joke all that killed at Eric Garner- and I had this underlying health conditions. Sallies opens some window their fur, but fence form
Jovan, but the thing that is just really hard to get around and I've been
a little less, Sir quitted the trigger
Case and others just glad of it, I think we ve been
By video so many times, but but this one is just
really hard to see what what contacts are going to come out as can change your view of it, and it just seems impossible to get around the fact that take his pulse and according to the complaint like two two two two minutes two and one slash two minutes before Sheldon gets off his neck. You look at the video
hush imposed if people have seen us at a really good compilation where they take spice together, all the various of video security cameras from bystanders and put it in chronological order to make sense of it and in other their bystanders a kid standing there he's unresponsive. What were you doing? He's he's unresponsive led him up either responsive and the cops are young at these guys and trying to push back so just net. No getting
This just seems to be at the sickening case. Yeah rich. I wonder if some perfectly cynical defence attorney for the police and some future trial will
ask if George Floyd was tested for the corona virus. Maybe that's what killed him luck you put on your knees.
Guys neck for eight or nine minutes. Just what the hell do, you think is going to happen with the guy star.
Www once he's unresponsive, what we're? What threat is he then
What we are going to see with his
we had went through this with the garner case, weak wonder this question of ok: how
The police take down somewhere
How do they eliminate the threat from someone I've seen
people. You know commenting that George Flooding has had a brow,
in entering or something
Many years back
and this idea that you know. Oh, you know the idea tat. He was afraid of dangerous person, will once you're on the ground that person's nothing with persons in handcuffs. That person is not a danger
When someone is wheezing, I can't breathe. I think that you as a police officer
or to serve and protect our obligated to take that seriously, and maybe somebody said Billina saying they can't very well, they really can, but by and large
you'd? I dont want police going around believing that somewhere
who says they can't breathe, should be ignored.
You're the restaurants and distorts choking. You react. You notice to save them right. The idea that
we would not apply that same standard that somebody was in police custody is rather shocking, appalling, and
just a deeply for young people
Certain case again, both this case where we saw three office
standing around and get the idea.
The wild example of that CNN team that got arrested and put in handcuff by cops,
Camera live as countries that there really twenty cops rob.
Not a single one of them was a you know these. These guys,
If you want us to move over, there will be more there this now
there's, no threat to the public for this camera crew, and yet either steered this
can indicate that there is some sort of particular rotting meant
quality are either the Minneapolis police. For I can't help. It knows you know. Belinda steel was in the suburbs Saint Paul. Ah there,
that shooting about australian woman who had called nine one one
other. Maybe this is it all about? Certainly there nothing, you know, keep people who say that
widespread in every community.
Our continent. That's the case. The boy there certainly seem too,
whole bunch in Minnesota. These less couple, your stuff they search
We are starting to cut friend about this case over the weekend
and what he says is that every single recalcitrant suspect not every single exaggerate but
would you here all the time that that they, when their existing going in the cop car, whatever you're, trying to get it
you're a cop than ever to say our earth is great, don't worry, they say they can't breathe. You know they say you're you're entering them or something else
and is some. Whilst these we made cops, are dealing with low life, all the time who lie and our potential threats to them physically and two to others. But clearly- and in this case there is
instant where you need to realize the guys in trouble Floyd and eat you needed to start
I'd, say this life and that
transition, never happened, but what he may try delved
all into the question of civil immunity.
Four tops in whether that's a good idea or not. One of the reforms has been proffered in the wake of this. This incident is, is that should be repealed and you should be able to sue that cops.
We'll cover things. Firstly, I am sure there are some circumstances in which police make mistakes.
I struggled to see this ass
Finally, in that category, purely because
took so long is also the key
been question seems to have been complained about six
dean Times and nothing was done.
I think if we
brave enough to limit the power
police unions and to try to change the culture
policing, both within policing and without, we could have ensured that that cop was never pushing his knee onto George Floyd. Snack must not to say, please don't sometimes make mistakes in the course of their duty. Of course they do we all day, but I think that's not a great excuse
here. The qualified immunity doctrine seems to have been invented from whole cloth. It's not
institutionally mandated these? Not according to an original reading,.
And Congress cow alter it. I think it's it's a difficult topic, because.
You are creating a different sort of citizen.
I am slightly betray my radicalism. Here I find
the arguments for having police
persuasive, but I also think that it presents problems,
and as we are opposed to the existence of
a standing army on
egalitarian grounds as much
ass, their historical understanding of what
standing armies could do they didn't lie
The idea that there would be people among them who would be.
Great in number and treated differently under the law. That's what we have created with our police debate
once we have outsourced responsibility for law and order.
And we have applied both
Formerly and formerly different standards to the
people. Then we would to any one else to me, for example, one good example of that is how long it took for the police officer to be arrested. If I had done this, I would
been arrested immediately. I can see some case
For a little latitude.
But on balance, I think we ve gone too far
we have allowed police unions to protect bad police officers,
should be doing the opposite. Standard should be higher, not lower, and I think the qualified immunity doctrine.
Has essentially set law info
Meant aside from the rest of us,.
In a way that has bred certain contempt. Now this is
sure everywhere in the country, but up in the North EAST, you may know police officers.
And our cards centrally get out of jail. Free cards thing is related to the pennies police. Benevolent sensation
They have them out to their friends and you can show them if you get pulled over for speeding or what you owe me a couple. Let you go why I'm a possible grounds.
Is that acceptable to Charlie on the immunity thing, and I haven't delved into this much, but I saw someone tweeting at someone who wrote about how we need to roll back saying. Well, you just not have cops, I mean the working class guys and if they could be sued, what was going to stop off all sources bogus and harassing lawsuits and just
make this job on sustainable for a lot of people. Yeah sure you could say that about any business as well,
If we allow lawsuits against private businesses, nobody will start a business. Why would you go into it if you are liable for your mistake?
It seems to me that
already have strong pauper,
organizations within police departments to protect police officers. We have
we have strong unions and that it wouldn't be impossible to
set up a similar institution that dealt with lawsuits now. That would in turn create problems, but.
If it is acceptable for my mother and my sister, both of whom it teaches to essentially have to join the Union in England if they want to be protected from litigation, why
didn't we apply that model here, rather than cutting off litigation,
in at the source? Saying? No, you, you cannot, in any circumstances to sue the police.
Again, I think this is difficult, because we are deputizing people to go out and take risks on our behalf, and they
be churlish to say there should be no allowances whatsoever made for.
Are inevitable mistakes. I think the argument-
is that we have gone too far in wonder
and that it needs to be reversed
community acts question to you. We will,
see the end or the drastic diminishment
sort of protest disorder we have seen to this point by next week, yes or no.
God, I hope so I would say yes of just over the fact that we now seven days into it and the idea of
stretching on to fourteen days, cuts
to become unimaginable
I have my scepticism of beat me now: full effects of corporate dropper pulling out there
The national guard would do, but you are too weak
of cities burning at that point, it would be almost everybody there be a much wider consensus, for it will be a definitive failure of existing police procedures. If this camp, he beat you know lockdown down within a two week period.
Check out yes or no. Yes, I think so because I think that the public, insofar as it is indulging it, will stop, and I think that local government will recognise this
needs to change. By definition of it keeps happening than current tactics are working and they'll be changed, and I think we will see it fizzle out,
Yeah, I'm also a yes, so its unanimous wonders crowds tend to get bored said, gotta, be shocked if there can save same energy.
Behind this that we seen initially got running into next week and to agree at Charlie that it actually does. Then you know anyone who's been hesitant at this point to call the National Guard will
they wanted to do it. So I see I see that the protests and disorder squeezed
from that, and so with that
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auditors for five dollars off. Your first were with door dash, so Jim Garrison is absolute. Driven me crazy about this. This whole thing- and this is not the most important theme and ended this this whole crisis-
obviously put pretty low down almost two priorities, but just for months, you'd have outrage CNN segments. If there are a couple couples holding him-
and walking down a boardwalk somewhere or going on to a beach somewhere. Now we have hundreds of thousands of people gathered at close quarters, screaming yelling, overturning police cars, burning them, jumping up down on the police, cars and there
Barely been a whisper about social distancing, you ve been here a little bit more of it now, there's near time story yesterday or the day before, about what the public health consequences. Could.
B as listening to ever so, we see on the way over. I think of Stephanie. Roar was asking someone about this. Both two months ago. He had seventy five scattered protesters on the grounds that the Michigan Stew,
capital and the tone of the coverage was like the state was gonna burn down. Because of this, and now we have this protest in again
robots annihilation of effectively. The rules are don't step anyway.
Near anyone in the supermarket- don't walk on the beach whatever you do, don't go to church, but, yes, you can gather and enormous crowds in and take over. This
its american Citys will rich. I think the operating philosophy is that these smoke from the burning police cars will kill off the corona virus before
entered the lungs the protesters, so I think
Our good friend, Robert George, a sharp, cut, specify Robert a George,
a really good near times, editorial were or a column where he basically pointed out to Governor Cuomo and me.
Applause, YO, guys, the core
though annually should formally and locked down because their informally over and
the entirety of last weekend. They may have
a pro forma. You know here comments here and there about the risk of spreading it, but there was nothing resembling be full
wrote denunciation they made of all the other hails real
society and the economy protests, and it's a pretty clear contrast between
the Palazzo saying to the protesters we will protect you. We support your right to do this
His in our message to the jewish community, the time
four warnings is over going after those orthodox jewish community in Brooklyn like it was a groundhog or something
and just this idea that he's the luckiest he's afraid of protesters, but he's not afraid of businesses who want to open he's, not afraid of the
rocks Jews want to gather funerals, not announce that their their easy. To pick on. I do think it's very interesting.
We're having this national
convulsion over the behaviour of police and it comes
after a pause,
your time and which, in addition to putting just sweeping restrictions on american freedoms, like we ve, never seen a forged by the white like, but the first
we said that this was in pain,
but necessary step up. I was fine with the very
degrees of Loch downs of the USA. Wonder
Anybody over it, but to say law
without a really serious contagious disease going around America
You stay home as much as it can only go to the girl.
Restore only go to the pharmacy. Only do what you gotta do, but you have to recognise that you know
Human beings are human beings and they need social interaction and they need to get out
Oh by the way, sunlight is good for them and, oh by the way, the indication is that you're much less likely to catch the virus. Outdoors, those of the.
Two things working by the way and in favour of all these protestors.
As gathering a large crowds and shouting and screaming, is not a good way to restrict this. It s quite a few of the morning. Mass, maybe that'll help a little bit
but yet we just saw american police arrested dad playing with his daughter.
Arrest a bomb and drag her off a playground in handcuffs right, they arrested the paddle border off the coast of Malibu right. So the corona of the quarantines
a test of government at all levels: local state federal. Could you here
a serious challenge, and could you exercise good judgment?
in enforcing the restrictions necessary and the Good NEWS is plenty places they detest that they pass. I tell me
well, but we saw some extremely high profile failures.
And so now here just one more perfect example of this we're. On top of that, you ve got your basically
Nobody, everybody whose screamin at you no business manner,
these are all good heavens. The of those folks are scaring their bad can't let the bar openers
that the bar owners in March in the streets, but these other groups march in the streets and is not a barely a word of this
We will see the price of this in two weeks. I'll be honest, because it's out.
Wars and because their wearing masks and because their sunlight payments will be so bad? Maybe there
be a big spread were seeing some nice dramatic drops of prickly over European and in some parts, United States laurels
courtesy cases creep up and certain southern states beyond that.
Beyond the rate of increase testing the virus.
Is still out. There is possible that these rallies in these great protests, these gatherings and
running the virus terribly at a time when things should be getting better, two or three
we are now will see things getting worse. I guess it's older remains, but
At this point we talked I talked earlier. This podcast about
squandering of authority and squandering of trust and
no public faith in our leadership? What further lockdown burn throughout?
That does not, unless you can't tell people what
you anymore, the sick of it.
By the way, all these people who are in the streets throwing bricks through windows and damaging things. You guys
kids school tomorrow. If there are any high schoolers that crap nobody gets a work. Let me be very few. These people work tomorrow. The ash lockdown may show that wasn't the case.
And you ve been low stuck inside tiny apartments molested three months without doing
really be that shocked that NATO, when, when public
When the city was let out, there came out the giant burst, so bad
decisions tend to catch up with us in the most unexpected ways so Charlie. If there is some demonstrable,
act two weeks from now whenever it is from these protests in terms of cases and in fact
It's pretty good sign and more doubtful that will be strict, assigning primitive.
Go outside where mascot do anything. Yes, I suppose that is true,
And I will be welcome news
but I do think we need to do a little more on the rank. If I could see her good luck telling people they can't work now.
And over and over again I read that the vote
doesn't magically go away because your board,
magically go away because people are angry. That is that science is that evidence,
set the word of the reality based community and I supported the lock dance.
I still think it was the right decision, given what we need at the time
We talk about the models, but would we
today ITALY as much as anything else, we didn't want that here.
To save it was coming here everywhere because of our experience in New York and we took an x.
Dream me tat decision in consequence
I also support reopening. I think it good that we are coming out of the lock dance
we possibly could have done it a little bit earlier. I did not adopt
Let's just mindset when dealing with the lock dance, because this is not a theological question, but it does look as if progressive did doesn't it.
John Mccormick has pointed out that the progressive view ass expressed in law and in opinion, was that nothing
could be exempted from the rules. Not even church
Not even assembling to pray for the expiation of sin.
Unless that Sinn was a secular one.
And then it was fine
This is turned on a dime just disappeared. It's gone all about rhetoric,
I mentioned CNN. Thus
saying that the insurrection ACT,
venue, since eighteen o seven that the truth as it was
jeez did ninety ninety two, meanwhile
we have all been locked inside for three months for the
this time in a century not the first
since ninety ninety two, a century
one who complained about that was too
but they were a moron did they were
vested in free dumb, but they were,
Down here a floor idiot.
Did science there ignoring the wishes of the Judy elected they wanted people to die.
They were engaged in an experiment in human sacrifice,
They had a narrow, cramped conception of
but he didn't care about anyone else. I'm gonna kill grandma
Those crap shack opens Florida sinks into the Maya and then
riots in the protests start and or dissipates. Suddenly, it's fine, I'm what's actually bad is the attempt to stop them. What the problem is is the attempt to put out the fires- I don't
think that what we have subsequently learned about Corona Virus-
creates the decision to lockdown the fact
the CDC has reversed itself on a number of very important questions. Do mosques work or do they not is
primarily transmitted from services or is it not? Is it a problem
to be outside, or is it not
What is the fatality right there,
they see DC has had to reverse itself on these questions does not describe,
the decision to lockdown. We need.
What we knew, no one,
it's going to preside over a million deaths and there was a point at which it look possible that if we did nothing,
get to a million deaths. Perhaps we would have. I don't think that decision has been discredited. I do think
The people who have been the most enthusiastically enforcing that decision have been discredited. I think they have been exposed. I think they should be
This just switched Matt Wolf whose I'll be honest, not someone, I'm a big fan of
Did a public service in
Compiling all of the things that were written about the conservative led protests against the lock dance, which were peaceful.
Of the people. Writing on this said that they shouldn't get healthcare. They are prepared to go out and protest.
Some of them said that they were murderous, that they were part of a death cult.
And now we have protein
in riots and applied
The virus cares that the progressive class thinks they are more worthwhile.
Look I don't care which is more worthwhile. If this was
sin of epidemiology doesnt matter but weak
I don't have a
Nigeria class. That is
so vehement about the importance of lockdown that it
we'll call anyone who descents a killer and that forgets that
three four days later, simply because it likes the content and the justification for protests.
I think this is a big problem in our public life and is one that we need to address Jimmy
ex question to you rate how over the locked down are in light of these protests, nodded on some very completely over
very and approaching completely I mean like the things that are cancelled for some are still cancelled, but it looks pretty silly if
the boy you're within two or three weeks, if that we don't see a huge spike in cases, everything back on everything we back reopen as it all. I got
I think that over in the sense that people responding entrusting the authorities
to impose them, is over. I
We still going to see a good deal of caution
behavior. I think people will continue to wear masks. I think demand for services will ramp up slowly, but we'll get there
and I think a lot of businesses will continue to take care
my local liquor store, for example, has these screens on the countess between the customer and.
Staff which I imagine will stay there for quite a while, but lockdown
ass imposed by a combination of government, power and elite. Cultural force are over dump finished,
it's a private low end, a very or between some very Trent, tending towards
very thought of any city that former order and place it's gonna. It advances
if they cause of what's happened. It's I don't think
many formal institutions are going to change their change. What they're doing
Thinking about this in those, though, still be some cautious behavior, but but
but this is, it is a flashing green light. Others are to ignore again if we don't suffered debacle from it.
Is it as we talk last week, the locked out are already are eroding, and this represents even further erosion. So less pause before
move on, and here I saw about an hour plus Lenny makes pitched you folks. If you read and are regularly, you ve got to sign up for an hour plus there
Meter pay wall that encompasses more more articles, yet three
free by to the apple at any any given month. You look sauce that quickly. You might exhaust that, if you're diligent reader in all in one day there ways to try to tap that
around the meter pay wall, but they their annoying and they just make everything more difficult. So simple solution is to sign up,
for an hour plus does cost much. There are all sorts of our first ideals
at any given moment so go check it out, given just sign up it. It helps US sports are journal.
Some and sports what we're every day it makes you're you're reading life better, though
no pay wall. There will be many many fewer ass. She also can be annoying. You can comment if you, if you like and be invited to to be part of Swiss, calls
And events with our writers and are editor such a great deal all round, tens of thousands of people have realised this and signed up. They can not. One of them already please join. Join. The party
out our plus fellows before we leave us hit a few others fangs compared even watching space force, yes funny,
Bates starring, Steve corral it.
It's kind of a parody, imagined version of the real life space force being formed at the Pentagon. This
maybe may school for the first. I've only seemed to episodes the first upset it's hilarious, maybe as
those as anyone has come to depicting the wheat agency on television series. Second one
quite a total guph here, but the corral is only always pretty darn funny.
In other people who desperately to laugh these days. This is a nice job. Writing it and try.
You're taken with these the actual space launch, the actual space force, the real the real space force. I was
couldn't help, but think that we're living in the late sixties we have Richard Nixon. Is president rights on the streets and rockets with american astronauts going up
to go and see it. Thankfully I brought my ipod with me, so I could tell when when
look into the sky, but we all went down to the beach
a four year old had his binoculars. It was a relatively clear day. There was some clout we stood there with a lot of other people, of course, six
and looked into the Sky Father Rocket and saw absolutely nothing, but it wasn't a complete wash. We got to watch it on the NASA up on the Ipad
It really is a moving moving things difficult to grasp
quite why it is so moving, but to watch Americans
go up in an american rocket leave is incorrect.
And really the best thing
the only good thing has happened in the last week and the landing
it took the land ass extraordinary that made me think of your Peter T office. You know aids in some respects. This would be the sole absurd would would be vindication at it. Didn t lights are
that we haven't progressed at all in the last forty years. Technologically, we are just shooting rockets into space and actually took us a long time to recover the deleted to do this effectively. But you look at the salon
you like, while that is something that that you would have seen at a comic book
As you know, the other interesting thing is is that its Elon musk? Behind this I read bill prices book on nineteen, twenty seven, which I have referred quite a lot, and one of the take away from that book that I had with most of the people in the nineteen twenty behind incredible
Inventions and and developments were crazy. They they were brilliant in their fail,
They had crazy views prices really great on this. He keep highlights things they believe
and, of course, that seal on mass governing, of course, that's the guy who is behind this technology.
Yeah, so I'm gonna give one of my I'm sure, not highly valued death food recommendations,
no one looks to me for food advice, but I plugged still for stuffing last couple months. Dutch baby last couple months now put in a good word for making war.
It is so easy you just get you advocate- is make sure that the ripe, a tomato, somalian garlic. However much you you likely makes my pepper flakes Pepsi.
That's it and it's delicious every single time. It's easy! It's fast!
so people, I recommend black boy could be an entire meal if, if you make enough so that it's time for editors picks Jim Gary
But you're back so it may surprise some people with these. These seeming disagreement between US rich, but I thought your column yes meet rioters with rule
force was, was really compelling, a well written and its veto
draw distinctions that perhaps don't always come through in other
arguments and other debates in our but justly noted, the sentences jumps to decouple senses, jump out were quoted is,
simply not true that writers will be quickly stated if they're allowed to break and burn things freely disorder.
Leads on itself. Looting, one store overturning one police car is never enough. Look in our whatever we think about
national guard or something I think, you're a your assessment of the general philosophy is correct and it may very well
be that as soon as we saw the police fleeing the third precinct in Minneapolis ARC
where was set for a further year, the chaos we witness these possibilities- nation state its celli. What's your pic, I like down Maclaughlan peace, the very fine
people trap and how to avoid it today and which has actually argues that the president may
mistake with his very fine people comments, not
reasons that have often been put forward
where of lying about what he actually said, but because it just wasn't the time for her
splitting and know what that's our job. That's the job of the press. The press in general is not good is rather that doesn't
Skis Trump and that sometimes you just need to come out and focus with a foghorn, tease. Dance word on the core point and the core point after Charlottesville was not to split. Has it was to stand up for a moral proposition,
and that Trump has not done while avoiding these traps as president and, unfortunately still not doing well. So my pick has caused this peace
makes use fur writers and points out. This has been a progressive tendency for DEC.
AIDS to come up with euphemisms for what is happening on the street when there's looting and writing.
To make excuses of it for it and with we seen obviously plenty of that
in this up so so that set for us in the same to an azure. You part gas. Iraq has re transmitter account this game without express written permission and actually magazine is strictly prohibited. Podcast improves by the incomparable Sarah Shitty, who makes a sound better
we deserve that Charlie. Thank you, Jim thanks to Operation Jack Nap, the new memoir,
and two door dash the delivery arab thanks, especially to all of you for listening where the editors and will see you.
Transcript generated on 2020-06-24.