Today on The Editors, Rich, Charlie, and Jim discuss the calls around the country for disbanding police forces, the New York Times revolt, and the eerily religious quality of the recent protests.
• Rich: Jack Fowler’s work on the webathon.
• Charlie: Andy McCarthy “What Is Fact Checking without Facts?”
• Jim: MBD’s tribute to Anthony Bourdain.
• Rich: The Muppet Show.
• Charlie: Stomp Rockets.
• Jim: Going to a crowded restaurant.
The Editors is hosted by Rich Lowry and produced by Sarah Schutte.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
the funding, the police, purging the New York Times and worshipping with awoke, faithful, we'll discuss all this more on this
Ex edition of the errors, Umbrage Lowry, and have joined us
by the right. Honourable Charles W Cook and the sage of authenticity, woods, Jim Geraghty, Michael branded authority, will return
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I said anything so Jim Clarity in the back of an eyelash defined the police
is all the rage. It has gone from a slogan
two well, I wouldn't say to a policy, but people are thinking about how they can actually implement this you ve had
already the Minneapolis City Council, commit to to funding the
he's dismantling their police force with what is going to replace it to yet to be determined what you make of it. It's footing
pattern. We have seen from a democratic party
somebody to say this. As you know, they ve always played this game of having has been particularly vivid, the less you know, maybe year two years
if, on the police abolish the police? Well, no, not really. We don't really mean that belief,
Eve all women. Oh ok, not that women are not those.
Women over there, but you know about
ice, there's. No, it's time to end immigration and forward looking up
all immigration enforcement. Some would say this is gonna. Martin Bailey are
meant, or some might say this is the Democrats
want to simultaneously be the party of all the young
People who were marching in the streets of last week or so and also the power,
We have the suburban soccer mom and it's tough, those two demagogic,
I do not agree and a whole lot. They, my both beer
it with President tromp, but they dont veiled certain. I feel the same way about law enforcement. They feel the same way.
You may be a simple ways to say the the soccer moms want to feel safe from the criminal element, and
protesting in the streets over the last week want to feel safe from the police and
that's a very difficult square. The circle, and so the instinct of the Democrats is always too.
They ever about this earlier today that they can ever
simply say the president was wrong and that this is a bad idea.
Go like half way in the opposite direction or three quarters they'll have to go
as far as they possibly can in the other than the other direction they ought to drift
up in the county cloths and look like there's a guy put it on a chest set from conduct the other
They never so far and I suddenly realized after they started getting near the Bernie Sanders, voters the the base of the parts
gets. Galvanizing fired up all the roulette. Oh my god. We got a problem with suburban voters. Oh my goodness, we freaked out the people who are so liberal, aren't so progressive, aren't so
left arm. Now it's interesting as they did for last couple days. There has been this little bit of a two step. This insistence of water
the president of the minute, the Minneapolis City Council, was on CNN yesterday
camera asked the question that was on everybody's mind
I hear somebody breaking into my house in the middle, and I who do. I call.
And the sensible answer for any period public official is taken an oath to protect the public is to say, don't worry
Someone will be that the police will be there to respond when someone breaks into your house and another night you present of the City Council spoke,
for a minute and seventeen seconds, he had plenty of time to say. Yes, we, though the police will be there. She didn't do that. She talked about a lot, but why privilege to talk about how we can accept
how did the police to come on the scene and make things better, but not all citizens go basically
The only way you can come away from that answers to say out well in her vision in Minneapolis in the future,
someone breaks into the idea
Ass, the northern I do you hear, sounds you dial, nine one one,
the answer will say we don't have a clue
Force anymore, you're on your own,
and, unsurprisingly, lot of orders not like that idea. Rich so
Charlie that the case for defined police is you
expand the origin window, you make everything's short of defining the police, look moderate and create pressure for far reaching reforms that
have been possible for necessarily, and a lot of people have pointed to candid.
New Jersey, which, of course, after ending its police force, had a new police force but had her a reformed police force with us. The fairy.
I don't think it works like that in practice their assets.
Sounds is in which one can move the Overton Window with language. But in this case, and indeed in many other cases, it seems to me that the com,
Quincy using the sort of language has been forced explanation and reversal.
Rather than crusade,.
If you have to explain your joke, it's probably not a great job.
If you have to explain your slogan.
You probably doing something wrong. The press has helped a little bit.
In a way that it certainly wouldn't with Republicans has been pointed out to me that when Republican said, repeal Obama
we didn't see journalist after journalist, saying.
Well remember some important context: hair
Many sentences have plans that protect pre existing conditions when Republic consider,
I wish the IRS instead of lower taxes or simplify taxes, we didn't have fact tax
designed to inform the public about the true gamut of irish reform efforts, but I think even
If we include the oppressors willingness to play, Dnc spokesman.
The slogan has not done a great deal of good and I think we can tell
because this morning on Television Commodity Harris said that trumpet made it up when he complained that they were efforts to abolish or defend the police. And she said
the Democratic Party had no such plans and that he was scaring people for no reason. Bob jumped us sometimes make
exactly, does sometimes scare people for no reason, but in this case he was repeating slogan, the
has been widely promulgated
been echoed in many quarters of the Democratic Party or their, notably in to be fair, not by Joe Biden. So now I dont think
that we're moving the Overton window here. I think
the Overton Window is being moved, its being moved by the other arguments that are being made by the protests by the commentary around those protests, not by the sort of pie in the sky, absolutism so Jim. Obviously, there there's tensions and that the voters that Democrats want to reach that you know it earlier between Scott awoke.
Space and suburban knights and suburban women, but on this issue so far, there obviously is risk of going too far to fund the police becomes a platform plank in the democratic platform. The summer fell be really bad, but so far these protests,
the general push the general attitude, seems to command a majority support believe all the point here:
think when you see something, as vivid as the death of George Floyd.
And the three police standing around watching it happened and and not intervening in not recognising that he's not breathing.
It moves everybody there that overturn window moves, and I think people who
been there, I was going to some people were resolutely support over the police and every circumstance, but they have,
really far and wide to find anybody who was not willing to
criticise or castigate the Minneapolis police. For that, on that
libertarian instincts of starting to to catch fire in a efforts, a criminal justice reform and and
the scepticism of the lock him up to throw away the key mentality.
Recent years. Something like this cover many a thing
the arresting of the CNN, corresponded on live television with no indication of what crime is committed or or any reason or an explanation whatsoever.
These seventy four seventy five year old guy who got pushed down in Buffalo,
apples cops slash tyres because they said they fought the and the cool vehicles will belong to protestors
the low there, but enough cases of police misconduct to get everybody say: ok, wait a second! We trust that these guys
or at least we really wanted to entrust these guys. But this on top of Eric Garner on top
Philander could steal, on top of so many cases, going back to radically
and even before them
The point was like: ok, we can't give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore, thither at a very low
within some police departments, and maybe in almost every police department. Who knows that some sort of wrought has said is that there has. This mentality is
taken root in which the laws and the rules do not apply to them, and that there is. This
use of violence prevail against African Americans. I think, if you look at the example of the Minneapolis policemen who killed the woman from Australia.
In some cases using violence on innocent people who just happened, be the wrong place at the wrong time and in a bad decision making that ends of crossing innocent people their lives.
Something. Everybody move one step to the left and look baby public in this year. These turn out
These marches, why.
Swathes of the public is interested in discussing how do we create a police force? A treaty
their insurance, everyone, equal treatment in the eyes of the law and protects the rights of the accused, protects the rights of the innocent, and that does not kill people at the
Get out of the deep you'd arguments about you with our police, you amateur policing, the problem. How much is qualified immunity? The problem? We all thought that dumb uniform
you we're going to be the answer, and that does not appear to be the answer so far,
What is more, the hiring practices, what are the training practices with police? They Minneapolis, please just banned the use of sleeper hold chuckled
All of that could be a useful part of a conversation I think, find you're quantities, number people on the right who are open to that who recognise, there's a problem. That is that shouldn't actually must be addressed at this. You know addressed in addressed quickly,
But typically any police, any Democrat who you know was already pretty capital. This push them even further to left and there
their travelling with the Overton window.
Point where their single, maybe we'd, only police at all, which I think most people would think through its aim,
now now we would
the police, but we really need our police that we can trust to exercise power responsibly
Try. What would you think about the general issue of police conduct misconduct in how to handle it? It seems clear to me that if there had been video of George Voyna said conscious will have wide. I have just heard of light, or at least minimized what had happened and they're, probably wouldn't
wouldn't have been consequences and I'm it all went well. They do things wrong. I think we all support.
Accountability and they're they're, probably things that can be done to increase
count ability. You know better tactical training,
training on how to de escalate, aren't really understand that the chokehold things thing I have a conference says is actually useful tactic, but LOS Angeles band.
I think in the eighties. So I know why there are soldiers jurisdictions that allow it
But then, on the other hand, a general, you look at the best research and when it comes to use lethal force, there is very little indication that there's a racial element to it,
This study that allowed people site that's the most extent
the most recent did fighters disparity in and
the force short of lethal force, even when you try to count for all sorts of racial differences and how often people-
With the police, how they interact with the police and
That's not shooting want someone in the street, but if you're a black person- and you feel so you treated
Firstly, the police, more aggressive and more suspicious, that's an affront, tiered dignity and something that you're gonna have taken feel very seriously.
Great. I'm a classical liberal. I met limited government type
and the reason for that is that laws have to be enforced with emphasis on the word force. As a result, I am sceptical.
Of government and the agents of enforcement, but I think that.
Question with which we are dealing here. Is it
Much more boring one, then the debate around it, you said there was a majority support for the protests have to ask
what in particular there is certainly an absolutely should be majority support for the proposition that what happened to George Floyd was an outrage that he was murdered. This majority supports, I see for the.
Do that inequalities exist in american life, including along racial lines,
Some problems with the way that police behave when it gets difficult is when you try to write down, and this will have to be written down some remedies.
What do the slogans mean, then? What is reform look like and what is it in concert with.
I mentioned at the beginning that I met classical liberal because classical
applause, although they believe in limited government, are not Atticus.
And I believe there is a role for government, it seems
likely to me that there are many people out there, irrespective of their political persuasion, who disagree with the idea that we should
punish and try to prevent murder, assault, rape, robbery, property damage.
And if we agree with that, then we're going to have to have laws and we're going to.
Have some mechanism by which those laws are enforced. We're not
basing here getting rid of the government and if we're not to be
in getting rid of the government, then really we're not debating getting rid of the police and the people is a defined or abolish the police. When you pushed him on it, they really only have three options. To give you in return, one is to reform the police in someone s not the same ass abolition, it's not the same.
Defending. You have to pay them. The other is to return to some sort of militia, driven private security, dominated sheriff, led system of the sort that we had in
The colonial era, and indeed some of the old West, but your head,
From libertarians not from progressive, so radicals and the last one
is to set up some sort of committee of Public safety
Indeed, in in Minnesota, I think the name of the
institution that is being bandied around as a model for public safety, which is too close to the fore
for my comfort in
allocating the first option. Reforming the police is the one that is going to prevail, because most people are not on board with either the second or third possibility.
And that's really really boring. It will involve
some form of limiting union power
While I imagine keeping some of the collective bargaining tools that progressives in it is progressive to run Minneapolis want to keep, it will involve some retrain,
seeing it will involve examination of help
these interact with suspects, it will
involve an evaluation of which laws
necessary to warrant the use of force. It will involve a look at what.
Police should prioritize and it will involve
examining the very real tradeoff that exists: hair between public safety and low
one of the ironies here is that why
I think it is absolutely true that if you put police officers into contact with African Americans and poor people, and often those groups overlap, you increase the chance that someone,
going to get hurt. It is also true that when you don't police,
poor areas and downtrodden areas, you increase the channel
somebody is going to get hurt, trying to find that balance is impossible. It's extremely difficult is something that we have been
looking out for years, and we seem to have this pendulum. The goes from one side to the other
So you end up with a ninety ninety four crime bill which is called for.
And endorsed by many city leaders by many
like an american mayors which was popular in the Democratic Party and its constituencies
But is now being blamed for the excesses at the innocent
any possible that both sides of that debate are right. Now I
This is actually a very boring topic. I think it's an important topic, but I think it's something that is going to be hammered out in in the weeds
not by slogans not by root and branch change, and although those weeds may be interrogated because of the protests not by protests either. So
Jim, the one thing seems clear to me as no matter how your form, the police, they're gonna, be things things go wrong. You can have some bad cops. Inevitably
and was able to think it over. The last couple weeks is just what we ve seen cops. Do some idiotic things, but there also kind of honor nice
between what's doing their job and what's that potentially
salt charge against them, because you know in and just everyday cops are dealing with the lives of all races and and
at the city's people who lighter than people who resist them. People want to do them harm and getting the balance exactly right. You want to do that Bulgaria's about exactly right and everything.
Instant is gonna, be really hard. I watched last week the second night of looting,
In New York City S, biggest Tuesday night was nearly as bad as Monday night, but a bizarre off store was being looted and the council clearly being more aggressive
and they're gonna chase couple, these guys down and arrest them, and these guys
seeing the shops of the cops in theirs is may lay in the street and the cops prevailed and they they got him on their their bellies and put a knee in their back to handcuff and take them off. But I think, if your car,
We have done the back your mind and assets like that at this good and Maya they could potentially my freedom if something goes wrong here and in the person of scuffling with his her. I think those does
Buffalo cops, there's been a lot of attention to that and I dont know why they were under no enough for the contacts I looked in into a but there's like their marching off the battle. Even though you couldn't
we'll see any. There were any writers in their vicinity and the seventy five year old man comes up in and get him
way for whatever reason- and I dont think that the cop who them thought
in a million years that that's what would happen in a fall directly backwards, with a sickening thought at the back of a skull. Handing the pay
and you will get one of the the angles to made good
the least that I've seen and every single cop in the line where they see there.
The boy hits the there there. There are happy that happened, and I again I doubt the cop intended
for that to happen so strongly says they're, just inherently a balance here.
Yeah yeah. I think we have the perception of police work, which is probably heavily shaped by
when I see the media, but I don't just mean
the news media, I think, also pop culture media, whether it in a law and order
all the new ways for top shows that are dominating prime time to go. Probably back to teach a hooker to enough semesters old enough to remember that
We had this idea of what cop workplace work is and then, if it
we get to see it, it's the one on the police glamorized. I clearly is easy. Cops catch
the gun at a somebody's hand, as Joe Biden recommended shoot him in the leg instead of the heart,
overcoming last week, I was kind of intrigue by the response to it, because I got
so I knew were righty rears, but also left, who knew cops, who were friends bookshops who had cops in their family, who were, ah you by any b, o definite by definition, pro cop,
What are some folks? The left who my assessment is that old tv show cops corpses
but the men and women of law enforcement, all suspects are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and our
watching the show and thinking how often it seemed like they're always was not. Glamorized was very depressing to watch, because at sea
like there regularly being called for domestic disturbances.
They go in and the job the man at the moment, because it wasn't always married my husband, wife, there's a baby cry.
In the background there screaming at each other trading accusations back and forth. This very often like two or three kids were terrified in the corner of the room
The neighbors watching she's got a cigarette about an inch where the ash left on it and the cops have to sort out what happened. Did it did a crime occur here.
Is it to call everybody down, prevent a crime from occurring here and then of the sort?
that is really did make. Arrests are often of the husband or the man.
The woman would suddenly turned a dime and say no, no, please don't arresting. Please don't take him thinking. This would make the situation worse out. You can pay me enough time to go into situations like that,
That's you know emotionally stressful, psychologically, stressful, physically dangerous as it is. I wrote it several folks like you, no cops are like those are actually is
mission that are most dangerous because
passions are running at their highest. People are not a surly feeling. Rational people may be high
People may be on drugs of some kind, and you just
I have no idea what's going to happen from second to second of a situation that seems tens, but manageable could
Dangerous and unmanageable at any given moment.
Gotta take a real psychological toll on cops. That's
we gotta where people down- and it's not surprising, the cops of
local issues, both divorce. You know it. It is probably very tough to be a normal
happy well adjusted human being if every day
you you're encountering humanity at its worst and being
to adjudicate disputes,
people at their worst moments,
these arguments, so that, when I said the statement serpent at its possible, our cops are being asked to do things that no police force on the earth could possibly handle.
Lotta people on both the right and left agreed with that and said you know this is
something maybe we're social work like the petition
crime is a problem in that environment, where you get near the domestic disturbance in the frightened, kids and stuff. But you got a problem of addiction, you ve got a problem of unemployment and you have a problem of poverty.
You ve got all kinds of other things that are exacerbating whatever is going on at that moment. So what
what would you really drill down into people and they act? The folks who actually dont want to refer
form you dont want to defend. The police are dont want to abolish the boys. They want certain things.
Handled by non police. I e mental health professionals because allow these people have mental health problems, which is the other
the core of what is what is causing the crime to happen they may
addiction, problems that are driving them to take criminal acts. They do not have a job Nebo. Nobody people were protesting. Let these last week had any jobs to go to it.
During the day. Many teenagers are involved. None of them had school to go to the morning, because, while schools are cancelled across the country, one p
dont have those structures around them. Those problems get significantly
so by that standard. Someone wants to say, hey we're wise. When I put that they are put out. The argument were asking policed
things that really are part of law enforcement that our deeper more? Why
more more societal problems that really can't be handled with summit with a badge and a gun
You're, a lotta people agreed on the left side of the spectrum when, instead of encouraging ok, maybe there's a there is some broken ground. We can work on their but you're right,
recognition that when you put cops into that kind of a situation-
of something going wrong and anything from a copper
Can a guy's knows too, maybe a cop breaking a guy skull,
the shoving of the guy in India in Buffalo. The idea something going wrong is very possible. This is inherent in the nature of police work. I think it is fair.
For society to say. Ok, it's got is part of the human condition. It's gonna happen
how can we minimize this and at what?
how can we get it to a point where we know okay, this is as low as it can get, and this is an acceptable level for a free society
Cook S, question to you. There will be major police reforms and cuts to the budgets of police forces, yes or no.
I think now I think we're going to do the wrong
thing hair, I think
on grass is going to possible a bill that possibly applies to the local police departments and not any federal agencies, which is, of course, totally the wrong way around, and that gesture
because we nationalize every question. Well assuage sound this anger,
and let the local departments off the hook and help the Democratic Party smooth over the differences,
that exists between its radical elements and the suburbs Jerry Major
forms of budget cuts. In the wake of this yes or no.
You'll see it at the state level, not federal level.
I'm gonna say: yes, there will be major reforms and budget cuts. I think it's just
be impossible for big cities to resist it and, if their actually careful and thoughtful and a big asked her time that once it could do
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please check it out so Charlie. We ve had a big kerfuffle, a revolt, a cultural revolution ongoing at the New York Times. You talked about the some last week. Tom cotton has an up had published at the time
which was commissioned by the times. Edit did in fact checked by the times over a course
two or three day period, woke staffers at the time
totally up in arms, they go on and twitter expressive
outrage they gave should set out, the leadership of the two
which at first to say I know this is part of what we do. We published provocative opinion
totally round, it says. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe we publish this provocative opinion goes after the fact. It tries to find factual errors in the cotton a column and find reasons that they need to disavow it. They find some not very convincing reasons. There was one orphaned quote that should have been paraphrase, not a quote. Besides that there is really nothing wrong with column
but the op error at the opinion. At all times, James Bennet was cashier and has left his second in command has been sent to the
third charge shoot you know a week ago was buried deep down in the hierarchy of the directives is now number one. At the time
as for the time being, and will probably see less conservative opinion on time
Pages going forward. What do you make of it? I think, is preposterous
and I find it annoying that I am obliged to make the case for basic liberally.
And small l. I didn't even agree with Tom cottons up at I don't even like Tom cotton. Very much, but that's not the point. This is.
These are the wages of campers nonsense. It's not just confined to compress these ideas. They spread out
If metastasized and they do matter, people ask
Why you care so much? You don't even agree with him exactly precisely.
Because I don't agree with him that I care so much and I
do you care about the institutional health of the New York Times, not cause I'm invested in it? Don't even read it that often, although I do read it, but because
I care about the institution or health of instead
You in the United States and the New York Times is one of those one of the premium
an institutions in the United States and also because I work in general
not at a newspaper in opinion journal very different thing. I agree, but because it
that how we talk to one another.
And what our norms are.
And all of the norms that have been applied here are apparent. The idea
this object was beyond the pale this ridiculous. It wasn't. It reflected a majority view, it didn't say the things that it is subsequently accused been accused of
the New York Times is lying in its press releases.
In its tweets Tom cotton called for thee
you patient of american Citys, to send the military and against protesters. He didn't. He didn't say that truth matters that matters. It bothers me that they just invented out of whole claw new rules.
No they appended to it, which somehow took all of their minority start out of danger. That note that note was a lie from start to finish this Calvin Bull,
absolute posts, rationalized garbage. If you apply that standard the cotton standard, let's call it
To anything on their homepage today, yesterday, a week ago, three weeks ago,.
All of their opinion. Writers would have to be fired Charles blow
did not work at the New York Times, Michel goal but could not work at the New York Times. I made it up. There wasn't a series of factual errors with Tom Cottons peace. There was nothing in there that was dangerous, it wasn't dismissive, wasn't rude was in bed, it expressed a view.
And for an newspaper that prestige not only to be so cowed by its staff indulged. All of that fact,
Nonsensical arguments that therein danger it doesnt reflect their values.
To accept the presumption that they are in charge and then too,
A cop, a new set of standards to apply posts
to a peace that it in part solicited and wrote the headline for, but that will never apply again to anyone.
And then to fire the guy in charge and to say
have fewer operates in future and then to say
If you see anything that makes you feel even slightly uncomfortable, it gives you any pause even for a second, please tell us where we living.
This is America dynamic. This is the country of the first amendment
times is not bound by the first amendment, but it should be animated by the Spirit of it. This is a country where people argue always have right from the beginning right from the early
republic and sometimes in the most vehement terms. This is it
do they cannot have major newspapers behaving like this or
It will lose its boisterousness.
I think the times has done itself an enormous. Do. I think it's done our political debate
Enormous disservice, I think it's done America.
An enormous disservice, and I think
If this is the future, if this is what the people
who are coming out of academia believe and if this is how
prepared to behave and if those above them are prepared to.
Doubt it than I worry a great deal about the the hallmarks of this country and and indeed their survival, because it won't just be.
Our newspapers and our universities that are affected and just pause for a moment. To think how crazy it is that the strongest opposition
To free and open debate is now in our newspeak.
Buzz and our universities, the two places they should be strongest
But it won't stay there. Eventually, it will seep into debt.
Tragic attitudes and it will seep into the courts.
And then we will see something far more sinister, we will see these attitudes being re, a fight in law and enforced at the point of a ban at this has to be stopped.
Yeah, Jim, I don't think that's alarmist. I think they're coming for us next they're coming for fur or conservative pinion next
might be social media cracking down on overtime if there's actually bills that give rise
there's more power over social media in.
Content and there's a democratic present to appoint those people. It'll be some portion of them
like these arrival at the New York Times,
I think this is a real peril and then to the point,
of how this that the standards that made the cotton Abed unacceptable were entirely just fashioned. For specifically the cot, not bad, and nothing else was really brought home by the the column attacking
The cotton upheld by the aforementioned Michel Goldberg, the the note at the top of the cap,
not bad now says it was at times are places. I forget these act wording that this column was needlessly.
Harsh in tone or the entire, the Goldberg column, everything she writes is needlessly harsh and
those very symptomatic as it accused cotton of fascism
Was a fascist dad? The idea that, in keeping with a law that on the box, has been invoked before that federal troops,
go and assist local authorities to
establish order and distinguish between marauding bay,
Hands of looters and rioters and peaceful protestors- and she just pretended that he had advocated preoccupations of the other cities, and I think she said mass of violence, for they troops will just go in and start Bay and adding people in and shooting people randomly, which is completely ridiculous, but is part of the reason. The times
staffers purported to be threatened by this up at these yeah. Oh, if you're, if you can be threatened, if you can feel threatened by an up at peace
You probably should work for newspaper you may find by a person, but you cannot be threatened by words on a piece of paper
My favorite example, by the way of all time of New York Times double standards, was the colonists Charles blow
who I believe in two thousand twelve irked by something by that right. Wing maniac Mitt Romney had said that frothing at the mouth,
The drama had said something and blow had responded on Twitter, so they like Stew,
that, in your magic underwear, was a reference
Jim fourteen days ago, Charles Blow wrote a column, the title of which
how white women use themselves as instruments of terror, the sub head of which is,
There are too many noosed next chart bodies and drowned souls for them to deny knowing precise,
see what they are doing now tell me.
Now tell me
I am impressed issue writing that I think, is enormously silly, but fine we respond
writing and arguing not by sensing. Tell me is TAT, invoked,
arguments that are more or less disputed than the one,
in Tomkins Ipad, specifically about anti give me a break. Surely, after noting that blow tweet, I wrote about a friend,
I bear reached out to the public editor of the New York Times its tat, so on.
Guy's got any rules on columnists collar,
They are making fun of the religion of somebody with. I fought religion,
discrimination and mocking others beliefs, visa.
Was a no no over there and the public editors through a backroom
Mrs businesses, not
keeping with our standards accepted gonna write about it and he responded. I'm not gonna be bullied into writing about this by you, but you know how bullying I convey
so they are found, has always had this double standard at work. We ve said for
time when we watched campus craziness fat boy, those kids are going to have trouble when they enter the real world. That kind of
of my work on college campuses and you might be able to bully and intimidate some you politically correct in a weak willed professors.
But eventually you're gonna get into the real world in the workplace. In your boss, he's gonna tell you to take your. You know, recommendation of how they should do things differently in Seattle.
Dick it where the sun don't shine and if you don't like it there's the door and the interesting thing is that no for some reason.
Erica's workplaces, not all them. I imagined
you join the Marines and you tell
drill sergeant that his tone is harsh and end. The needs
makes you need a safe space and that you are
feelings are hurt and such that does, the drill sergeant will not take those recommendations, buys energy
his ways, but certain workplaces did decide that they were not go
to stand up for their own internal sense of authority. Back on our friend covered Williamson departed us and went to work for the Atlantic for like a holiday
is that internal staff revolt basically of additionally, I judged as our own credit. If I'm wrong Jeffrey gold
I don't understand you dont like them, but we're gonna, stick by Kevin he's gonna, do some good work for us and within a day or two.
The angry young staffers, the Atlantic said no, you don't get to decide who we hire Jeffrey Goldberg. We
You and we reject this and Geoffrey Golden
duck a and errors. The thinking
I'm very happy doing what I do. I don't want, which is job, but I imagine,
I did if I were the editor of a major publication. I'd want to have decided. I want to hire her. I want to hire and I want to fire who I want to fire. I don't want to be accountable,
junior copywriter or the copy, editor or Rita. I don't have to take us
census of the staff to see what they think of this decision about decision
is a browser. You listening Jack Butler Jack another. If you get attracted to bully me, her asked me to do what you want forget about. It
I'd better gender stand our ground. So there's not a different part gases
a shock you guys, but in my view
her days of journalism and various wire services and dot com, some congressional quarterly in such my boy
who told you to shut up a whole lot better
care what I thought about, what we are writing at all. They didn't didn't, want this twenty something coming along and telling them how the rest the organization should should run
and I don't quite understand why you wanna be the boss, if you didn't have the authority to make the final d
concerning the other staff are allowed to. You know it's a free market. We want
Or somewhere else you can walk out, give you two weeks noticed: do whatever you want and there's this there's been this cringing this this this reflexive pulling back from that guy,
I bet it could have said. I know your hated. The the cotton called write, something tell about wise wrong, but there's something interesting.
The old lap hitherto possible. The first is that the left never really believe in free speech that left, never
really believe in freedom of expression, and at the moment they have
power to restrict the restrict the expression of others. They embraced it with both arms and gave it up.
Your hog and said we love power. We love
authority. We love being able to tell other people that they are not allowed to say things, but I think, probably more fundamental. I dont
I think, maybe in some cases that was what was at work here, but I think
accurate one is that
the older left either never taught the younger left about the value freedom of expression of the EU,
about the need to be exposed to ideas you dont like about the
Challenge is a good thing about the value of the first love and everything Charlie just laid out, so I will come late either the dewlaps didn't, listen or the old left was afraid to push back against that when that was
those professors in journalism who should have said your job is not to you know restricted.
What other people writing the paper? Eugene
to go on report the news for the rest, the world. Your job is not to try.
Sure I'll get up early, the slack!
General discussion, discussion boards at the New York Times like the Balkans of the MID, 90s or so
idea that you know one age, twenty, something when you step into the New York Times, your job is to tell the editor of the is to demand
the firing of the bed page editor, because you didn't like something that was written. You not be the entire none of these people.
Pop that, and the irony is James Bennet was afraid to stand up for it.
Everybody. Also, the New York Times is afraid to stand up and say no young staffers. We decide what gets run. We believe this was acceptable for business purposes. Disk
debate. If you don't like it, you have the right to respond
If you really don't like it, you have the right to quit.
Firing on a bed page editor over this, and they didn't have the courage to do that, and I think it
something very interesting about where the power lies in the left. These days,
and ultimately are there any pretence that your times
had of not being an explicitly progressive newspaper. I met him at this was enough,
rising driven by the fact the New York Times was to open too conservative viewpoints.
Which is have a notion that I think will strike most people on the right as took over both of us.
What you Charlie Kirk and lie this incident and what it port hens in terms of the direction that your times the New York Times, will become less influential, more influential had the same level benevolence. I think it will become less influential because-
It will end up pleasing its core constituency, a great deal more, but at the expense of everyone
mouse and that will reduce its prestige can get it. I concur with Charlie that, like
on some level that this
You probably love readers who tell you what you want here, hear a do. There's people plenty of big display a market out there,
people are like tell me why I'm right today,
but you do like the public. Christopher kitchens is a great example. They're all kinds, a rider to surprise you
the Enquirer sports com is just a profile of aid, and I fell players with the patriots and here with a very active and black lives matter.
And the racial injustice he's also pro life is activist and that what some people would seasoning congruity. This footballer doesn't see,
See the slightest he believes you standing up for life in all its forms: young people
surprise price. What make life interesting and the New York Times had just taken a giant step to make sure it's much less interesting. The future.
So I'm basically same same influence. I think it's just such an enormous.
The two shin I think the
the influencers it enforces won't really be bothered much by this turn, because
there are other journalists there, people and academia there there on that.
Elite. Opinion makers, so I think paper will become less interesting because of it, but still will be hugely
Ethel I and were really comes push comes to shove is just how this turn will affect its its reporting
The fact is, we're all annoyed by the times. We all know what the times is about. We all know the Times bias is, but I just almost every day, there's some important piece of work and the New York Times that you can't avoid
and just a crowd virus there, three or four sort of graphic driven stories when it comes
top of my head is sir: how Europe seated
the virus and the? U S rather than China,
earlier on those that that story about just how many people left China and flights
going around the world and that just invaluable starts and as its hard now for
What else to do, because so many other journalistic institutions have been ravaged while the times has been grow,
so with that here from our second sponsor this week, covered and markets dot com from the box, a group, the crowd of tragedy strategy has ravaged, must of american life in recent months. The impact of both the disease itself and the various policy wrought responses has been profound in nearly every category
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So germ, let's head just woke this in general briefly. Here it has been striking the religious closet,
religious aspect of this phenomenon. There's video last week. I think it was in North Carolina, I'm not sure, but
but people sitting on the ground and
pleading these series of pledges,
anti racist pledges and it was really,
at the catechism in a church service
We had this
Millie aiding and and
to be fair hilarious as well episode of the Mini Minneapolis mayor Jacob FRY showing up at a black lives protest meeting over the weekend,
and the protesters up on a platform he was down below, like supplicant answering there their questions confessing
his sin. Sin city sends and then cuz. There is at least in an hour
is somewhere in there in and Jacob FRY he refused
to say. Yes when they asked him whether he can t find the police and totally eliminate the police department and he was shot his boot date. They chanted you'll. Go home Jake.
And she had to slink off like an unrepentant centre at a tent revival meet it. You know, rich,
when I was watching that video or they, the images of the whites pledging to renounce their white privilege and all its stuff,
Maybe I'm a cynic. Ok, yes, Amazon, but I can't
at their housing. I wonder how many these folks, at the end,
of this ceremony are gonna, go back to the parking garage where they park the premises drive back to their majority whites.
Herbs and thereby other items of an eight said. Their kids to private schools are not sent him to the public school workers about public schools are good, but all the minority, kids,
it's really interesting and that these folks took this public ceremony and they were observed
all of their sins. I guess and or the washing of the feet it fair. If, if all it takes to get off, the hook of being accused of racism is to wash somebody's.
Beat. I find that a reasonable here. If I beat I never get accused of it for the rest of my life and nobody ever gets to complain and nobody ever gets to try
cancel me or or objective anything else. Would I do that all use washed and the devil himself. Let's get the top. Let's do this, but you can be re pretty reasonable,
because my suspicion is that you ever look all right, look up power, what a powerful symbolic gesture, yes, its symbolic gesture and
we'll african american community gathered. Well, I guess they get some sleep
goals not necessarily get any been there. Neighborhoods, don't really get any better. The police
probably doesn't change, because somebody went through all this data. It is
ultimate, it's it's not even buying indulgences get up to spend any my you just you know what he's gonna business do say so
thing and do something now there was another example were an african american police officer.
Lying on the ground in handcuffs
and allowed others too, to de ride him into sneer at him. Ass, a thing like that,
so it was saying to me that knowledge or something
formative about this there is something like ritual out of its there. The chinese culture revolution struggle session or something
ritual lies humiliation,
out of the middle ages, or something like that. There was something we stop talking about: police brutality in some of these gestures. This this is
touching something deeply psychological. Somebody even argue cycle sexual about this,
process here. So it's kind of ridiculous, but I
Yes, you know that there is a part
the looks and says what these people are really convinced that by taking these,
with pledges or washing the fee.
Or making these symbolic gestures that they're off the hook,
They can also be things are fixed now and I kind of wonder if there is so much hunger for effects that they will adopt.
Nonsensical that he was Joe Joe Locker, the former Clinton Administration Press, whose
that now the way to find peace,
the way to show revolution. A resolution to this is for the minutes.
The Vikings to sign calling capital.
None of that. You guys, Charlie. I actually occurred,
It's a Charlie object, Jaguars Van Rich,
Your titans van on budgets fed up fine
so the Vikings job on aggregate so to speak. But God, let's do that. Whatever the threats have Capron excitement the Vikings and die eventually a start complaining that her cousins isn't
good. Let the Vikings deal with that problem. Let what the rest in a league move on
and eventually Joe lockers like ok. This really would have anything to do with policing how it wanted
straight, a single darn thing and on the streets above Minneapolis
maybe the Jersey, somebody's wearing as they get hurt by the police during arrest or something like that.
That's where I think the state as we was so angry, some sort of grand
symbolic gesture. They can fix things because I think they recognise that the actual policy changes are can be a lot
lot tougher and probably not nearly as effective as as people hope Trust. It turns me off. I'm sure listeners would be shocked to learn this, but I'm not much of a joiner.
An unknown predisposed to read other people's lines. I say what I think it's my job. I say what I think to satisfy my unconscious. I say what I think to be true, some of the behaviour that we have seen,
is akin to a medieval heresy. Panic I'm not doing it.
I'm not going to say what I'm told to say: I'm not going to apologize.
The things that I haven't done, I'm not going to repeat slogans that don't match my own opinions,
Silence is not complicity; no one else gets to define
my silence or anyone else's
get to remove my agency either. I say what I think: that's my job, I'm not going to be handed a catechism. That way lies totalitarianism,
The vast majority of the people who have been involved
in these protests on asking that the approach
testing with their own voices, they held there
shot their own slogans. They write their own up heads. They treat their own thoughts.
Around the edges, Isaac Free P?
domineering set of demands, and I think it needs to be resisted
By anybody who wants to remain in control of his own life, people sticking cameras in the faces of strangers and asking them to repent. That's not helping anyone and it's not right.
Think that many corporations are getting caught up in this. I dont need Wendy's to tell me it's against racism. I never thought it was in favour of racism. There was a bizarre
Exchange, I saw image the Wendy's account.
Tweet it out that it wasn't racist, scrape
and some woman risk.
Didn't said you know, I just really don't follow this account for politics. I follow up because I, like your chicken tenders.
And when these accounts said totally,
Stan and respect that, but its very, very important that you know that it's not ok to hate black people because of the color of their skin. What who thought that it was
hey Anne, who thought when these thought it was ok and why
that woman who likes to contend does need to be told this.
We have in some ways lost sight of what we're talking about here, and I think that we are on the edge of
attracting what happened to George Floyd so far out the way
to him a disservice, though we forget what happened.
We forget why it was wrong.
We lose sight of how to do something about it. For what it's worth Ike
the impression that his family or certain members of it also think this. Certainly his girlfriend and his brother have not been thrilled by the response.
And if we move from abstraction into
domineering score settling, then we will be
and further away from from where we need to be I've just say in case I misinterpreted. This is not a criticism of most of the protesters snow, I'm fine with protest. I encourage it. If people fell in need
and I think much of what has been said is true, but around the edges. There is as a softer tablets. Heron is in developing the needs to be resisted,
Jim Gary exit question to you, the sort of work.
To activities we have seen the last couple weeks are a passing fad or an enduring trend there enduring trend in part, because
as for the practitioners, are sort of self replicating the people who
and going into these institutions as we discuss with New York Times earlier, but I go
to the you now seem at once apolitical press the bone, appetites, Thea,
what's media entertainment media they they
bring this up this their. Therefore, their approach to all issues that they see switches, while the sudden
reading about superhero movies and mothers, insufficient diversity in them, or something like that felt sudden
Their agenda starts to seep into it and any of you
Jim. That agenda is automatically detect it as a threat
that must be eliminated or something like that, and anybody who has ever expressed any of that doesn't get her
doesn't end up joining the kind of just end up we're reinforcing the culture, just as we ve seen in college campuses, eyes, probably gonna come
you, Sir more and more media, more more institutions, critically media institutions, so unfair
way I dont see this beyond the alternative would be near. The proper movies agree, alternative media publications and I think we're done
Pretty darn good job of scene outstanding standing. What we stand for for a very long time now, but I'm not
he'll. Our people want to do that, and I think that there is a lot of people who are kind of,
uprising. Number of institutions will let what seems likely woke twenty year old, either internally
fresh higher start running the twitter account and that's why
All of a sudden, you start seeing in a burger chains. You know calling for reparations and stuff like that. Charlie fad aren't worth while
I think what I just described is be over
section of this moment, it's that it it's it's deb, it's the point at which
lose sight of what what they were arguing about all along. So I don't think that that is a fad as our anything more than a fad, but I do
think Jimmy's right. I do think that when we see these sort of out breaks in the future, there will be more of this behaviour because of the institutional capture. I think adoring
trend, unfortunately, and muddy pause, do real, quick and our plus plug it did restriction service at NASH, review, dot, com, growing
leaps and bounds, especially last several months. It's your way
to avoid, are increasingly extensive.
Always annoying metered pay off its away to see many many fewer obnoxious adds to cover other website. If you like to be part of our community report of a private facebook group again,
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part of it and let's hit a few other things.
For we go Jim Geraghty, you had the nice experience of going to a crowded restaurant, although crowded outdoor restaurant with tables
appropriately. Sixty depart yes, some further in our social distancing, Swat team staff by carrying out their air ordering and I'll take out food, most certainly knights, and I'm sure they wanna goes out and picks it up. I've got my mask. I got my gloves. I don't have a full can bio suit. They don't deny requiring that
antiquity woods anymore
but I went to one not far from my house, and this is one that usually pretty popular. They were took a chunk of their pardons lot and just put out as many picnic tables they could benches and
no big umbrellas, they are protected from the sun last Saturday, just gorgeous whether temperature was perfect and as I'm picking up the food they probably about twenty picnic tables out there,
and every one of them was full when they were about YO
you could tell they measured it very precisely. Each one was six feet apart this
where's were wearing mass. The customers were not than there said he owes a whole bunch of families out there all enjoying themselves and it almost
like a normal Saturday night and was just a delightful look. I know the pandemics
over, we ought to take certain precautions. We gotta be careful, but I was just a nice. Little sign of life is going back to normal within about may be doing this. This coming week
and then dumb, no justice.
That I needed to see as us as the summer really started to captures increased him felt sorry.
Really feel like summer and child
in a joint that amazing attention known as stop rockets, the stump rocket. Yes, one of the great things about having kids you get play with their toys. In fact, you get to buy yourself the toys and pretty
you're buying them for the kids. This is not what I bought this that you had to see off the phone with publisher of National Jack Fowler, who sent the stump rocket down here. Eventually, this is a stand. Looks like that one you might see at Cape Canaveral, which you put a rocket on.
Basically, a piece of felt with some flights on the end is connected to achieve,
and then there a large balloon shaped plastics
and if you stamp stump on that plastics
the air Russia's through the hose and pushes the rocket up into the air, and I sat on the box that you can get these rockets to fly to undertake
in the air which I didn't believe until I jumped on end and watched. It go up up up up up up up
a pop right rice onto their. If in my house, I had to go with the latter get the rocket down. But this is
Nor was he- and I know sometimes people write to me and say you mention,
the story. I got it my kids, this is one you should definitely pickup
Sir, I've had cause to revisit some class eclipse from the map it show back in the day and it s so good
and I saw the site:
the sheriff there there's so clever, and so.
Endearing so with that boarding committed suicide, envy de rights with great
it was kind I did not tied in to corona virus. It's not tied into the protest.
Alternating host Michael Brennand, already has a piece on homepage state when there is no recovery, remembering Anthony Boarding, Addison
two years have any Bourdain committed suicide envied,
he writes with great sensitivity, great heart
About all the conflicting emotions, the degree to which you can feel angry about Anthony Bourdain and this decision. What
He meant and represented to people who were trying to continue
their journey of recovery from addiction complicated
you're missing him, finding it difficult
Watch him now, knowing how
story ended so to speak, get others there's a lot of complicated stuff there and Michael Brennand already sort
through it all with great speed
stinks and in just a really fantastic way of thinking through something there.
Probably the time was issue
dealing with their own mortality and other people's disease,
to end their lives before they need to take up what you pick out. I'd anaemic, ass, his peace last week on the New York Times, fiasco fact checking without facts.
And which he sliced and dies the times. His explanations for Bab cowardice,
So I want to praise the mentioned Jack Fowler,
We over the weekend had a brief fund raising.
Dr Weir, not a commercial operation were not owned by
The billion hours opinion journalism of the sort we do is not a lucrative business for all sorts of reasons I go into at length, but the
However, to the story, as we need people who
we say what we do to the pony up and donate money tat. One way to do this,
This really is whether Thorns Jack's, our always bears brought making the pitch is keeping the momentum going
this was just an astonishingly successful, whether thorn in part because of further
and so I just want to thank Jack- who is a loyal listener- has gotten to references in the last ten minutes here on this point,
cast, especially if
view contributed to the websites on. I just want to thank you. It really means a lot to us a big boost, and it keeps us doing
what we do. So. Thank you very much. So that's it for us. You been listening to an ash review. Part gascony. We broadcast retransmission account this game without express written permission of national view. Magazine is strictly pro
hitherto, despite gas has been produced by the incomparable, Sir Shitty, who makes us down better
we deserve that Charlie. Thank you Jim thanks to
this trust and cooperate in markets, dot com and thanks especially to all of you for listening. We are the editors and we'll see you.
Transcript generated on 2020-06-24.