Today on The Editors, Rich, Charlie, and Jim discuss former NYT writer Donald McNeil’s firing and groveling apology, the Senate impeachment, and the absurd attempt to cancel the classics.
• Rich: David Harsanyi’s post on Tom Friedman
• Charlie: KDW’s Tuesday newsletter
• Jim: Kyle’s piece on Van Jones
• Rich: Prepping food for the Super Bowl
• Charlie: Playing Battleship with his son
• Jim: WandaVison
The Editors is hosted by Rich Lowry and produced by Sarah Colleen Schutte.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
New York Times purges its own again in people
begins and are the classics. Racist
Does all this more on this edition of the editors umbrage Loreen join is always by the right
we'll Charles see W cook and the siege of authenticity, woods, Jim Garrulity, end
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Here here please forget, I said any
hang so Charlie Cook, you rode compellingly on this near times upsets. Let me start with you
truly extraordinary. One Donald Mcneil has been at the paper with forty six years or something kind of old school curmudgeonly journalist makes the mistake of going to a New York Times sponsored trip with students, always a mistake to Peru
in twenty nine teen uses. The n word in the course of a conversation about whether a twelve year old should have been punished for using the end word on it, video their complaints about this he's reprimanded by the times, something
time later. Then this emerges in a daily beast report at first, the time
stands behind him and says: oh what a context matters which course it cause and that a quickly shifts field,
as no no, no any use of the end word is strictly verboten and
huddled Macneil has to leave in upon leaving Macneil issues and embarrassingly grovelling apology when you make them where he said he made a mistake, he didn't he didn't make a mistake that mistake he made was acquiescing to
absurdity, especially after so long. He should at least have gone down
fighting he didn't Andrew Cell
then said it reminded him of confessions extracted by the Khmer Rouge, but at least I was torture involved there. This
was baffling, I think, given the ridiculous if the charge there,
absolutely nothing wrong with this.
seeing whether or not a word was used
pensively and there is nothing wrong with using that word. While discussing it. It is, of course, a matter of taste
I dont use the word myself. I find it grotesque in my mouth, but if we are to
We demand that
all listeners hair all words. Equally, we will have destroyed
which made ourselves more stupid there,
use of that word in say: Huckleberry Thin is, of course different to the use of that
word in the Jim Crow South Ass, a means.
I wish to wound door diminish the question.
Is this word used appropriately
not is not in and of itself offensive.
Macneil should have stood up for himself and perhaps more,
Orton, given his agent seniority, he should have stood up for the next person who will be
on the end of this silliness
Instead, he allowed the vortex of liberalism ism to continue our.
I think the times has said
tat a standard here that it is
guaranteed to violate
within moments. They are
you meant the times advanced, is that.
It has a zero tolerance approach to the use of
racist language. In other words, if you
Say that somebody you dislike
is an end word that that is.
materially no different to the Times
if you say, discuss the use
if the word in rap music or in his
article american racism.
And yet times rights is used. The word when discussing it. We know this Jamal Buoy uses it onto
when discussing it Nicole,
Hannah Jones uses it on twitter while
discussing this and well. They might often when people talk about this word. There met with two accusations
one! Oh, you just really want to say it. Actually, I don't. I never said
I've written about this for an hour when defending brackets bomber of all people, who was criticized
as for using it while discussing racism, I dont want to say it. I dont say I've never said it. I grew up in a mixed race family,
had family members from Malawi.
Like you, I don't want to set, and the other one is that,
one is incapable of distinguishing between its uses, but that's the times, not the critics. I don't think there is anything wrong. What so ever
We say Gmail, buoy or the call
using this, what I don't know
is anything wrong with them discussing it, but I do think
a great deal wrong if they are using
while discussing it in public
and another employee loses his job for doing so.
When the times as set out a zero tolerance standard,
there's, no argument that can be made for that, because all the arguments that might be advanced rely upon context
they while its different when he says it than when an african American says it. Ok, maybe
that's an argument reliant upon context. If there is no context allowed, if there is no import whatsoever to the circumstances then
there has to be applied consistently, and I think yet again, what we are seeing here is carvable, yes, said Jim clearly, what happened is initially the time set out a reasonable standard here. The context matters as acts. Of course it
should and then a hundred hundred fifty whatever it is employed at the time say no, we're gonna knockers stand for that, and then the institute,
in shifts so is once again getting bullied by its woke most members yeah rich and find yourself it. What we ve seen we ve gone through this a bunch of time, Lucy
this with our colleague Kevin Williamson when it was over the Atlantic for about ten minutes, and
as that was happening wondering what the point of being the editor the person in charge of a magazine. I view the right person s, but this rich, you, the enemy,
what's the point of Vienna here, am I not be in charge of it, but I do. My titles editor worried the dark night.
as is, do you feel in charge, so what
what happens if Jeffrey Goldberger that time had heard the complaints about every Williams and from Atlantic staffers and say well
I hear you're saying, but now I'm not firing him.
You're just gonna have to learn to live with that you're just
I've learned deliver this nuke nickel worker I'd. I've heard your own your complaints. I've heard your objections
and I am rejecting them- go work with this guy.
and yet if you really don't like it, there's the door, what would have happened if it's any head of an institution where,
woke mob, when the bullies come along, you are in charge of the institution which I thought they were. What have you got your didn't you,
I dunno James Bennet bearing the the Tom cotton Abed, the object,
in two Bari Weiss at what would happen if any person for innovation when processes it? No, I worked hard to get to this place
I have a final authority about who works here. I hear your objection. We ve had our talk with Don Macneil
Only actually deal with you again, if you can get rid of somebody for using this.
Heard there was a district of Columbia, employee who resigned, causes back, probably in the two thousands he used the term
term miserly or a sin
them for miserly. That sounds like the inward, but in use the inward for that somebody misheard him.
and decided he used the onward and be raised a stink and the guy resigned because it was what would happen if
no you're, not
A familiarity with the vocabulary is not my problem. It's
up to you to get to know this kind of stuff, and it's just baffling. We keep seeing people in charge knuckle under again and again, and it's got why. Why would you want to be in charge of an institution like the New York Times.
If you can't look at the whole body of work of a guy like Don Macneil, it's not disguise a really good science reporter therapy noses
Damn it going on cover big sign
story. We do want to
good science writers out the door over somebody threw
a stink over word, they use it on a trip year ago. Right if Duffy, if you dont need, is a real threat to
these harassing employees is a different story.
tossing the word around or on the office. That's a different story. It's working data to his science beat coverage. Ok, then we ve got a problem, but none of those things
what would happen if any the souls burgers or somebody said no, we are not your job.
like all of you, hundreds and hundreds of New York Times employees. There is the door journalism job
are not grow on trees. These days you work at the New York Times. It is a big deal. My understanding is that the new times pays better than most other institutions
journalism. You should consider yourself lucky to be here.
And while we always welcome all kinds of discussion about what can make us the best newspaper we can be taken out,
our best science reporters over a word that he used two years ago in context is not one of those ways. I just love to see
rich and for some reason I never see any big nobody. Everybody seems to knuckle hundreds afraid of these guys
yeah, there's gonna continue until somebody does stand up there's occasion,
a university president somewhere every now, and then it will say a version of that.
But the data from Jim is that they they lack the authority to do with it.
lack they themselves believe they lie,
the moral authority to stand up to people on the left, and we talked about this before it talked about a lot in the wake of the George Floyd killing and in a subsequent riots and
the the eruption of the little look you're liberalism at that time, which is at the these people,
who are used to the idea that the people on the right
area liberal thereafter, it thought rotarian and they define themselves in the opposition,
to that, but try when there asked to do that too
people on their left. They just can't they can't do at the camp brings us do now in what way
do. Is they end up flattening this?
actions and, in my view, insulting the very people they're supposed to be protecting. It is, of course, sometimes true
that the use of racist language could vote
later undermine accompanies values and make its staff Phil Devalue door.
We had learn that Macneil
Had been running around the office berating docks
scar staff with epithets course he'd have to go
and if you read the letter from girl
Dean and Joe sent to New York Times employees. That's what you would assume had happened, but of course it didn't. The juxtaposition between the description.
even in the preface and the note from Donald Macneil stock. You you soon realise.
But the words used in the preface being twisted there being abused
And there being abused by people who, as John Water points out.
I am actually to have a really low opinion of the intellectual ability and moral strength.
of african Americans who who see them as children in need of protection who,
see them as a homogenous block. Who,
here words inexact,
in the same way, irrespective of the contacts and can't function.
having done so. I don't think it was in a publication. I think he has his own blog John Water,
really interesting post about this saying you know we in his black. We are
capable of processing context and circumstance, and
once you know we
war. Here words: in the same way, we
not send running
so the corners.
by sounds, and yet you would think that he would be if you
if you took dean and Joe at face value with which we shouldn't, but again
The reason that this was ass, bad ass, it was was unfortunately because,
Macneil didn't in any way stand up for himself and what what he did was ratify these pernicious ideas. He accepted them at face value.
and those who engendered this response are getting into a habit of doing
and every time that their target is cow, wood and indulges it.
A little bit stronger, a little bit more used to the idea
become more mainstream and widen the net. You Jim site that one explanation possible effort where's went down was at Macneil
being honest about the context of its use of the word in this conversation, but that's not true arab weapon,
near a purse. Sorry, the washing post has done some reporting on us and talk to students. You confirm make deals, account,
what goes into other things that the students found quantum quota
bowing, and one of them is in a conversation about in Khartoum.
rates of african Americans, Macneil, said that, well, you know who commit crimes
you're going to go to jail, and this is just a typical kind of college campus sort of thing. Wimple reports that that students on the trip found this quote unquote, triggering the entire concept of triggering really needs to be re evaluated, because if I'm understanding correctly, the very first way you get. This context is if a particular body of work, whether it was you no work, work or or film or passages in a book or something involves something really graphic
depiction of sexual violence, something that was really war crimes, genocide of something that would be genuinely indisputably upsetting that you wanted to give people a warning of you know: hey something very graphic is coming ahead, be ready for it, so that you're, not just you know, reading through your work, you come across something and God forbid you ve been through some sort of marble experience. You start having dramatic flashbacks or something like that. There was a very good your well intended sort of thing we like,
You got two springing something dramatic on someone and somehow it got extended to a contrary, opinion. Anything that I dont in her already agree with is not merely something that bothers me or I object to, or maybe even angers me, but now it now traumatize
this may. I am now having a physiological reaction to actually all week we mark on this on twitter, but somebody says I'm so bad, I'm shaking over in the latest mundane outrage: du jour
Are you now being told you? If you get through the crowd, you can do the time to do the crime or if you commit crimes you to go to jail, that really
Genuinely triggers if you really have some sort of intense physiological response, that you cannot control
at any rate you become dysfunctional because of it. If hearing something you, then you really,
should see a therapist ending up. That's your problem. It's not the problem of the person who said it
they're, not the bad guy in the scenario theirs to giving a perfectly reasonable answer to what I said was a perfectly reasonable question. You cannot decree that all discussion of the criminal justice
and the idea the criminal should be punished, but under the law by it,
Itself is an is inherently so triggering that it cannot be discussed in your presence. Yet you did. I guess you can't be around other people again, that's the problem. You have to you at some,
why you have to stop asking society to change to. Please your needs at some point
you have to change to function within the rest of society and I said,
regional on whose cases these people are on some level dysfunctional if they can't handle,
hearing something they don't already agreed with. Yeah lobbies escape that their condition to to do it now
so joy ex a question to you compared to the average of these kind of stupid, malicious, cancelling the mic. Macneil absurd is not
that kind of run of the mill or worse. Oh it's worse, it's worse because this this was.
silly innocuous that this does not really any perspective from which this doesnt seem enough.
less than one can tell that, because the standard that was used as an excuse is not being applied elsewhere.
Gary, not as bad rather now. Worse, I want
pick something cunning between an escalation,
we ve seen things similar to this particular than your times last couple of months. But this really see
like a tricky tack foul. When you can't, you can see me making air quotes, as I say foul. If the fifty eight
nurse had said or feed if dynamic meals, bosses and want to say, look you're on a trip with high schoolers or someday, be careful but the Lange
you use, try not to get now turn up,
Saving that upsets them. Sometimes people are very touchy about the sort of thing five yo yo. You there's plenty of of lesser steps that the management could have taken to placate the mob. I think we all suspected the mob would not have actually been all placated that
been something but this this is. This is clearly- and I think it-
the New York Times to run out of actual problems within its ranks
another just looking for problems, people looking for things to get upset about even a comment from in our trip with kids use. Here you know years earlier, I think, is clearly worse
the innocuous nature of the original so called offence, shifting standard by the new
What time is the reason why it shifted its standard, which is just internal pressure and then finally Mcneil, and I feel sorry for him getting fired, obviously, but Mcneil's apology, which it is straight out of the cultural revolution in is of a piece that I wrote earlier this week on. The website of his kind of similar woke: apologies there so grab a groveling, so absolutist and their self condemnation
always refer to how much they ve learned. You know, through the absurd and an usually thank the people
Have gone out of their way to explain how racist and horrible the supposed offender is that this is just bad all around with that less paused and hear from our first sponsor
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A and c h, dot com, promo code editors thank Charlie, bought bomb, rash, dot com check it out so Jim Gary, as we recall,
Lord here, late Tuesday afternoon, we gonna impeachment trout, going on in the Senate, began a couple
hours ago with presentation from the house managers. The issue is whether the Senate has a constitutional authority to conduct this trial, but the house managers played
video that didn't really have anything to do with this issue whatsoever, but just had to do about the the horrors of that day that most people across spectrum acknowledged the pact to punch. Then you had led manager, congressmen, Ruskin
Providing an emotional conclude
into their case talking about of family members, daughter being at capital that day and how frightened they were just how heart rending it
damn those doors Eddie that she don't want another capital again, the United States Capital were where he he goes goes to work as a
congressmen. Then you had the Trump lawyers
come in and I have to say I just followed some eclipse entourage and have a chance to watch all this, but
Bruce CASTOR. Is that his name got there?
very low marks, as far as I can tell was extremely rapidly
Presentation that he'll before him, if he's not fired for later tonight, not because it was,
rapidly and not cogent, but because, at one point you said the process has worked and Joe Biden had been elect,
let's see how does it handles there?
But then this guy shown, I believe
came on next and as far as far as I can tell made it a better case kind of hitting, then David.
Hitting the points you you would make, if you're going to that that there shouldn't be opposed presidency trial than you had a vote
Which a minor stand Angus looking at Twitter, really
quickly here happened. While we were
ray recording when we're or a recording
whether the Senate has its authority and basically the same as
we could go or so whenever that is except there was one Republican flipped and does thank the Senate can hold the trial centre capacity from Louisiana. Would you make of it? Well? The first thing is that this is the beginning of impeachment weaker or the trial, and I know it's like bees, because its impact
man, it's a big deal. One point Bruce Custard. May the argument that you know we ve been over the top until Clinton and ninety ninety eight, no one had lived through an impeachment had been wanting in hundred some years now we most of us have been around for three
in just a kid I and two in the last year, which is you know,
indicating that this is no longer. This rare knew no effort taken in a most extraordinary circumstances in to make up
for not picking your item as the editor Speck three weeks coverage, I thought your your quarter post, observing that impede
What is now basically super censure and we ve crossed that line. They are now.
A distinction of them here, you're at respected, a job you I can make it that when a couple and want to- but it is not quite good enough for it depends on how badly wanting it if it means that much, do you sure sure it's my editors Becker last affirmative action on the edge of the prizes in the mail, but the vote so that the patent system, the test Democrats, had the easier task today, of course, its constitutional Amelia.
The constitution itself doesnt right much one way or the other, but the idea that the founders would set up
system and say well, here's the way this, the concrete legislative branch can hold the executive branch accountable, except a list
That's right towards the end of time. Then the president can pretty much do whatever the heck he wants
now look at the idea that they would want to give the legislative branch the authority to bar president from running for office, again
but they never meant for the legislative ranch did have the authority to bar a former president from running again that outside none. That makes much sense to me.
but nonetheless like they had to make this argument today. The Democrats again have the easier argument for this there. Yes, it was pretty clear: the Senate was about to go ahead with this, that the Trump lawyers had a tougher time, and I was Reno. I watched a good chunk of Bruce CASTOR, juniors line of argument. I suppose
he's gonna going for folksy and conversational and kind of meandered like the Mississippi River, and it just kind of when around it took forever to get to the point- and I dont think you, it was not great. I dont
and ass. I did any damage. I dont think this was a is a high degree of difficulty day. You're not gonna. Convince many senators. Do not believe that the scene of their constitutional authority to do this
nobody's minds for change, and I mean how many mines are changeable in this process, then, are the flip side is that show in he brought them,
There are many ease fired up, but he was pounding the table and he was shouting and, as you know, and I suspect that prefer precisely the kind of performance that dumb the President prefer to see
Ah, I guess I got it say it, it keeps people wake, it was very shouted. He was very angry and thanked outbreak pounding that table
combat, oven and pledging doomsday and where are the
to the civil war. If you go ahead with mamma- and I guess
yeah. That's what you are. I don't think anyone changed very much and all of us here are going through the motions. The best argument I heard from the Trump lawyers is
we're still trying to decide whether the Senate is gonna hear from witnesses. This strikes me as ridiculous. Don't show up
the EU. Is anybody can added a video any way you want it? Yes, it was a very
video put forth by the House impeachment managers, but anybody can do not put at that. What happened on January six with dramatic that that
It really ticketing, loyally skill to make that point with the argument we would, if you're gonna, you know, have been impeachment,
we're not operating on a deadline of January twentieth if you're gonna impeach the presently have up central, have assent
trial, bring it has many witnesses easy, as you possibly can think, would be compelling and useful for the case allow the tree:
team to pull in any witnesses, they won't give everybody plenty of time to cross, examine each other. Take your time,
Yes, I know the Bide Whitehouse doesn't want this. Will you know it?
Biden. Sometimes what you want has to take us a back seat to
The other debates were being told, is the most important thing, the Senate as to do right now, so don't do this half way if you wanna peaks, the president impeach the present, if you dont want to do it, then fine dismiss this and in the twenty four hour period and recognise that this is a
This is a foregone conclusion, but right now we're getting this kind of half way worst, both worlds- and I just dinner- I Philip bird like were signed
healthy, wasting our time and not making the most of an opportunity to really get to the bottom of what the president
did. On January, six, twenty twenty one situation,
Have you been moved? I you're you're a little wishy washy, uncharacteristically, on the constitutional standing, their post presidency.
Tryall. There's been a lot of argument about this and, I would say, probably most high powered republican lawyers come down and side. Yes, you can do this latest example: Cooper had a Wall Street Journal Op Ed the other day on her, whether you read this
this argument suit? You, which is that, since your immediately removed when you're convicted by the Senate, you can
continue on and disqualify a form of former official because
If you connect your removed and then they vote to disqualify.
You said there just inherently voting to disqualify a former president and that example I had
thought. It was somewhat ambiguous, but that being ambiguous. It therefore fell to Congress to
besides, I would never have come down on the side of those who say that it is flatly unconstitutional right. I was somewhat convinced
these particulars by his spine
Michael, Mcconnell yeah. That was, he Isn T
it's not a post presidency, impeachment cuz he's impeached during his presidency and then the constitution just says the Senate. Has the sole power to try right seems to me straight for their respective off the contours of the
broader debate, I'm with jam in being a little too
rest about this. I think that from committed unimpeachable offence and should be convicted, but he's not going to be,
and so we are watching
in another impeachment, the outcome of which
we already know and worse perhaps we are watching and impeachment
which nobody seems truly invested, even though they should be. The republican party has made it clear that it is not going to convict Donald Trump. The american public seems uninterested in there. I believe support,
for it has dropped below fifty percent of primary shuttle a little about fifty years. There's that one before I went on the past last week. There was talk about that. Had it forty seven, but their couple came out after that. Had a habit about thirty, not a lot. I think that the high settings, fifty six
It's not a topic of conversation either there are not talking about it down the bar, but also Democrats are invested in it in the way that they might be. It's not your
the White House, but many in Congress and many observers are worried that Joe Biden is going to blow
his opportunity either because he's wasting time,
That would usually be full of activity or because
this will annoy Republicans so much that they will adopt a defensive posture immediately.
And we will go back to trench warfare.
This is not how this is supposed to be done.
and I do I do think- that if we turn impeachment into a super censure super it, then we will have.
damage star constitutional order by, in effect to removing one of its most important tools. I don't blame Nazi Palacio, the Democratic House, for having impeached him
I do primarily blame Republicans for refusing to go along with it, but I am nevertheless almost indifferent to this.
because we already know how it ends. Yes, Sir Jim, I just think it impeachment is not a good check on President's, I think, in a partisan era it just to the level of the fence and what Trump
did post election, really bad she's, just really bad
They got a little too much focus on the actual right itself. That's the most lurid absurd in and the entire passed her selection chapter, but this is really bad but to to get to get a whole get the presents party to move just it needs to be a massive shift and
And the public opinion of that party, and it just that's really hard to do so. I think it's it's ending up being kind of a super censure and our colleague romish has made the case for much better than that
ok, you know it it's not as though this is gonna be abused. The way people typically sailed be abuse can star. I believe, made this case during the first,
Piedmont other set at floor while we're gonna be removing our presence all the time. No or not, it is impossible to really really difficult to remove a present. Instead
This is going to be used to make up a black mark on the record of presidents who have abused their office and just Navy made that's ok, see I really hesitate to disagree with him ass every time you do that, like stepping into a bare trap. You hope it doesn't. You know snap your leg off, but just can observe, like I think, if you keep lowering the thrilled through the threshold, here's like it's not summer
lowering of the threshold that maybe adjusted may look. Maybe this was baked in the cake. The moment that Trump became the republican nominee up against Hillary Clinton even became president that he was gonna not just push
the boundaries of the law, he clearly didn't know what the president's authorities were didn't care with presents authorities
Are you gonna do whatever he wanted to do, and then, when he was faced with defeat, he was going to pull out every conceivable. Stop to the point of absurdity
to almost mentally will himself to victory by walking around in flat out denial, apparently to this very day denying that he lost the election. I concur what he did was absolutely terrible and I bowed, but a fine with them, impeaching him the Thursday. Afterwards. I was perfectly fine with doing the Express lane version of impeachment getting out
there's quick, as is fast similarly possible once you dont do once you are your past January twenty. If, when you got no good reason a rush- and you should basically you know, take your time and me and I'll take every step- that's necessary process, all due diligence, all due process to the accused, the whole nine yards, because otherwise you're up
impeachment should not turn into a metaphor. We have set up the Congress to say where we,
angry at you, because an
up to now hyper part partisanship and hyper polarization congresses
It's gonna be really angry at the president on this at the idea. If you keep lowering the bar, this turns into something we're like every time one party holds Congress. The president of the other by the other party holds the presidency, will, sooner or later that President gonna do something that's going to really take off
The opposition party, and now the opposition party each time gets a little bit easier to say: oh yeah, well we're gonna beat you, I mean they're, probably most effect
give argument laid out by the trumpeters day, was running the tape on all the times members. The democratic House call for trumps impeachment
in some cases before he was inaugurated, but certain
after the twenty eighteen o, actually business near certainty and this they'll, probably the fairest argument, budding much more for the Eu Ukraine phone call impeachment than fur
this one was this idea. The Democrats are always looking for any excuse to impeach him. They were determined do this from the beginning.
It did Mary could walk the line. He did not walk the line. He could have done everything right. You did not do everything right, but if he had.
They still what I found some excuse to try to impeach him well, in this case Trump gave
of opponents of the ammunition they would ever need, but let us change the fact that impede
it is now turning into a income
increasingly less and less meaningful way for Greece,
majority to say, Mr President, were really really p out about what you did exclusivity
Charlie Cook number of republican votes,
convict in the Senate from zero to fifty five to guard
maybe six or seven you now, the retirement of gambling rob
men are Shelby. Might you know, look at their own pace and the voters again
I can say what they really think, but does it off that's.
I ain't that right, that's gonna use limb. Sixty seven there were six to survive
other five guy. Maybe maybe
Jim, but a kind of doubt it I think, is looking at like a solid five
And with that which, as you know, is five times the republican devoted from the very first time round, which was the first time ever,
a member of the present. Some party had voted to convict. Obviously, Mitt Romney in the Ukraine impeachment, so
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Please check it out. Such I've got another controversy, go in and that's a statics status of the classics, the New York Times. What you're talking about earlier, ran a big piece about this
Stan Classicist whose making his mission to destroy the classics, because they supposedly support a white supremacy and white domination. What do you make of it? So? The Greeks in the Italians have been promoted to white, now
It is interesting that have been news to the Americans have a hundred years ago, who certainly didn't see them like that
I think this is a real shame. I think it is about
to the destruction of history.
Ass, you can get at least one
burning down the library of Alexandria. We refer to these people.
Silently, for a reason, they are instructive
One doesn't need to enjoy.
reading homer and doesn't need to, like Socrates
in order to understand that we
came in many ways from these cultures from classical antiquity. We
Can learn a great deal from the experiences of the Greek Republic and the experiences of the room?
men's, and we know this because the founders did
take out, classics, forget
back two thousand years you caught me.
fully go back two hundred and fifty is you can't
the stand with. Google is right. You would be confused by the federalists. Papers
just by the pseudonyms but by the contents, you can't
the stand, the debates at the constitutional convention, all the debates at the first Congress without.
understanding how the founders saw classical antiquity, but I think it would be.
An example of a soaring off one of our
eggs. I also thinking you alluded to this-
The peace you write about this, that it is peculiar that
an african american man from
dreamily humble origins is arguing that
classics, are in some way exclusive, given that they
to him and he seemed
to have found an entire
intellectual world a career, it turns out in these texts and if they transformed him and helped him left himself up from what some terrible circumstances circumstances. I've certainly never lived in well. How irrelevant? How exclusive.
Can they be sir? I I think this would be a profound mistake again if we go
to the conversation real having about the actions of the New York Times, a deeply patronising, Miss
stake one that says in a sense what many white supremacist would have said that, while these,
areas only for white people were there not the not only for white people,
Therefore, everyone, because everyone is capable of understanding and enjoying
and learning from them and as a result, I hope that this active cultural sabotage fails ignominy
sleep here, Jim on average pay attention the story, but this classes at present is gonna. Perdita amazing, just amazing personal story comes here as a kid, I think, maybe four years old from Dominican Republic terrible circumstances lives in a homeless, shelter he finds
a book randomly and shelters or somewhere on ancient Greece and Rome gets captivated by obviously really talented kid someone who's visited. The shelter saw him reading a biography of Napoleon as it as it. Can you say that this sum is gonna pay attention to this kid. Someone's gotta help him sums gotta mercury. He gets out all the opportunities Possum
help him get a scholarship to an elite prep school in Manhattan, and then he goes on to get degrees from Princeton, Oxford and Stanford and returns to president as professor, as recently as just cut
years ago. I was talking about that. The power, the classics in in this amazing trajectory and his life and announced totally turned around and the thing I don't get in this this features or a lot and in work culture which are actually talking about earlier issues, the drive forward to destruction. Why are you so you ve, decided classics are really bad thing. They have this.
terrible background and the stain that can't be removed going to something else, you know you can do something else in your life. You don't have to like agitate for for the discipline to be destroyed.
And no one possibly too. I mean this would be an extreme example beyond its power, but in theory for no one knows no other poor. Kid and desperate circumstances discover that these these time was great works and be inspired by them in and learn from them in and be elevated by them. Yeah right, I did read that New York Times article rich- and I guess my thought indiscriminate stunned at the core of his sudden about face his sudden sense that he no longer supports the teaching of it and oppose any would pointy says this. Angry exchange at a conference, academic conference and abruptly summit have been pretty darn rude and
Dismissive and then you know about just to him, and he says I want to see your vision of the classics. You know go up in flames or something like that. If you dont want people to know something, are you really an educator? Don't you become a kind of an anti educator? At that point you want to you. Dont want to
to human knowledge, and I want to share human knowledge. You want to subtract human knowledge. You wish you kind of erase the knowledge from people's minds and the other thing which kind of comes
in it less this article than other folks who can jumped in after the article ran and join the debate. Was this
Clearly, these well beyond what the reasons we shouldn't be teaching the classics and should be metaphorically knock off its better schools, because it
or are romanticized or idealized roman society one. I dont think you? U. I dont really be real
about roman society and read the classics Satan I wish I lived there and the second thing guys my guest.
Is most american Christians, don't walk around
With this romanticized notion of Rome is the ideal of society and other anybody Pontius Pilate, that there was a guy who was
the kind of governance we need today. I guess we can give him credit for handwashing. That's that's about red or you could stop their say. Just ceiling is very likely the extent we see in every
nothing can convert statues in schools and in San Francisco. There can be no better Abraham, Lincoln. It's like the ultimate judging of the past by the standards of today and deciding that year, because it does not live up to the ideals of today will then it must be erased, and a lot of us would say, like the point of history, is not due to reconfirm our belief that while we today the you're twenty twenty one, we ve got it
figured out. We are the fault of wisdom. We know everything I remember was having argued with a guy on Twitter who insisted he had nothing to learn from the founding fathers, because they would not use a smartphone. This idea that there's you like in the end, the guy who is its ethical, to study the classics and then suddenly turned around and decided no there's nothing. We can learn from history and in fact we must not learn history that somehow to pollute our minds with these kinds of dangerous sit and bad and backwards ideas or something it's a it's. A remarkably dark vision of humanity suggests that none of this is forbidden knowledge. This a secret, less, did come along and you know war pure your tiny little mind their ordinary students said Charlotte. They. They really do that at the critics of the classics that they do the same thing to greekan round that the critics of America do.
Today, the the american project, which is they they just count all the extraordinary advances that made these societies exceptional focus on the sands and then leave aside the fact that every other society was characterized by the sins even more than Greece and Rome were. You know, Athens gave us. Democracy is imperfect.
Democracy is very limited democracy, but they didn't vote on on things. That's that's. The extraordinary thing in the literature was amazing and there's nothing
to match it anywhere else in the ancient world and sure enough
will want to live, and then the roman empire, unless they were at the very at the very top of it,
rural society and in many ways, but also an inclusive one and in various ways, that the Greek paused very exclusion,
Mary, Roman empire ended up bring a lot,
he bled and making them citizens and giving
some of the foundations of our earlier.
The system that are political institutions that have blossomed and such
a wonderful way in the west.
finally, even though
society is obviously had enormous failings
Also, you know their literature and their oratory. They they have the capacity for self criticism.
and that really stands out from the rest of the ancient world and obviously became a continuing thread in western history and is as one of our strength.
I agree with everything you just sat in. It reminds me of the way that the british empire is often treated as if it invented slave
three, rather than became the first major world power to abolish it, whatever other since it may have committed, but I would just add too
that one doesn't have in any way to lie CORD Maya, Rome or Greece too,
profit from studying them in detail. What doesn't have
want to live there, one can load every single person every poem every statesman, one
hate. The straight rose it doesnt matter,
It is important to know why the roman empire fell. It is important to know what the Greeks thoughts of democracy. It is important to know which leaders succeeded and which fell,
it's important to know what their legal system looked like. It's important to know how they treated people in countries they conquered
it's important to know how they use their navy, it's important to know what their common
system look like: I don't think that
ex, especially all the Romans, are comparable to say, not
but I also want to know a great deal about Nazi Germany stuff.
seeing something knowing about something does not mean endorsing it or liking it that
education is not
solely a matter of affinity,
want to know what went wrong in the twentieth century in Germany, in Russia in America, and it is in
disputable fact that the greatest powers and the most
influential societies in the.
Single era were greek and Roman. They had the
the influence at they also other.
Societies about which we know the most. It would be
active bizarre self destruction to ensue
The EU must feel comfortable.
enjoy all feel affinity with every
You you study in detail that that would be absolutely preposterous and I was reading.
last year about Sun Tzu? You hear his name over time. Military contexts
and one of the first things I had. This is how you treated concubines, which is not great.
throw the book away and say my goodness. I could have been my wife for my mother and ready to to do so. It would not just be self destructive. It would also be
a form of solid system, in my appear that with the, unless a given part of history conforms to what we like or prove off now, then it's not useful anymore, and, oddly enough, that's exactly what you lose when you learn about,
the classic. You lose that solar system and you lose that my appear and you begin to get a better view of the world in history is actually existed. Jimmy
The next question do you study. The classics will ultimately indeed be destroyed. Yes or no answer from a lot of people argue on life. Support, as is
No, but it will become ever more obscure
The general public will have ever fuel
you ever less familiarity with it as it becomes more and more demonized took up.
I don't think he's going anywhere and has,
I was about genuinely to say that, if it does will we will end up like Rome,
I think. If it does, then we will suffer as a culture, but I dont believe that it well. I think there is a good reason why it is so integra within our educational system.
and even if there is a fad for a while ours marginalized people were returned
not least because the stories
of which a bloody and gory in an appalling are never the less compelling, and you just can't take too much interesting history out of people's hands without them. Reading it, despite
yeah. I agree with that. I think will be continued to be degraded and and marginalized. Witches happened over time attractive, as has occurred, correct the Baku killed homer back in two thousand and one- and so I got worse since then, but I think
books are two good. These societies are two interesting. Their influence on our history and institution are too great. To is too great to one took, not totally ignore, so they will not be destroyed. Despite some wreckers coming after them.
Without Limit Whitley do in an hour plus plugin applause. Digital subscription service, at national view, dot com. Your way around the
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a subscriber, please go check it out and subscribe with that. Let's hit a few other things Jim before we go, you been taken with one vision. I guess this is on Disney plus were about five episodes into this.
I will go to any spoilers and it's very tough to discuss without any spoilers. That is to say that the first couple episodes are sort of these elaborate tributes to past errors of classic sitcoms. Yes, it is part of the Marvel cinematic universe. It has the superheroes
but something very strange, is going on, my sons are utterly enthralled by a marvellous done. Other tv shows, and you could tell you- are getting kind of a bargain basement
you no lesser knock off version of what you are getting the movies. This features actors from the movies and is,
they have all excited people of enjoyed a theatre, so one division is the first marble television series from Disney plus ended it head and shoulders. Above all, the other marvel related television shows they ve done in the past. So
lot of lot of one very confusing, very weird, completely unpredictable to China.
Then claim class game battleship I have the other evening. I decided that I would introduce my for Europe to the game, so poor myself, a glass of wine and burdensome, is accepted up and I taught him and we pay the first game open. So that I could make sure he was doing right and show him how it works, and then once I was satisfied that he grasped the game we move to play.
probably so you can't see each other's waters am said, Phosphor half an hour and I still haven't, got ahead, not one.
Frankly, it's getting a little bit implausible
my four year old in the meantime, is blowing up. My books, like were too long, one thousand nine hundred and forty two, but I can't get the single head and statistically it just just fell
how about so. It turns out that actually was because, after I missed for the fiftieth consecutive try, I looked at my foyer out who was looking a bit pensive,
I said, you're. What what are you doing and he said one just work
where to move my boats now, so you can't hit that turned out that he'd been playin.
All game every time I got close, he would move it put it in a new position and he was
who's running out of first base.
So I love superbowl- are preparing for the supervisory, but like Thanksgiving, your party experience is make making all the food. So even though, like
No one was coming over. There can be no, they gather eyes
help us a great this enormous vat of guacamole, as if we're gonna have fewer ten ten visitors
spend, spend the whole game track. Try to eat, and after this to justify myself that, having made that sir, this big ball of.
Guatemala, but it was a great game it, even though it wasn't optically close and we
your spare being wrong Jim. I don't know what you're prediction would a ban but Charlie,
media and I are predicted the chief
another what I actually said this on on the pod cancer to settle offline people, that I couldn't see my homes losing, because the guy could do a handstand and throw pat. Yet a twenty five year eight strike twenty five yards down to feel it turned out
that's what he had to do. That's what he had to do in this game, and I love the tweet. So someone tweeted out wait a second half it Patrick my homes just thrown the seven most impressive income,
relations and of our history and there's one of them. Jim eighty ran about back. He ran
hackers about a hundred fifty yards lightning. I think in this game those wanting to run back about twenty yards.
falling down and with you the story
I was almost on the ground and he submarines this thing. Like thirty forty yards,
until the end zone to receive this totally
however, like four guys or on em,
so receiver in the helmet, thought them and they had a shot of mohunes. Just looking shocked that through the sky, a drop drop the pass, but what what an incredibly talented quarterback he is indeed rich. The game is untenable.
I did see it, but also yeah. I dive predicted the chiefs to win as well. If you,
if we get the receiver held onto that pass, even if the chiefs of what had contrived to lose the game, it would have been remembered as the
while the old time great touched on passes of all time, usually gotta catch,
there is another one that the guy. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, did cash is just use out of bounds but term model,
on the left side of the field and was getting stuck in the process of getting sacked interests through this desperation, passed down the sideline those right on the guy's fingers and I think he caught her. It came close to catch
it is just with one hand he was just tat out of bounds anyway. It's that time and the podcast
editors picks Jim Garrison, what you back,
we'll just assume anything rich wrote in the past week as my pick, but it was even soon once all those are aside, the second best.
Kyle Smith point out the absurdity of folks on the left attacking Ban Jones for his support of criminal justice reform during the Trump years
Nobody is going to the cook. Those are these seminar network. If you call them the cook network, they activate the shock hollers the coke, these. What most people call the cook network, their winter meeting, very big push for criminal justice. Few years ago, Van Jones didn't speak, added be was featured in one of their videos and they were very proud of the fact that they built in their minds a cross
ideological by partisan coalition pushing for this. This is kind of what we say we want to see out of politics. We want to see people putting aside their partisan differences, looking for what make the best policy finding compromise finding common ground where they can
now. There's some crazy left these who want to argue that view
Jones is some sort of you know nefarious or unsavory figure, because he had the audacity to try to get legislation that he supported passed when Trump was president
I utterly asinine approach to politics. It makes some. You know it makes a difference.
the hardline ideologues and Carl Smith just makes it over the coals. Well done, Kyle check up. What's your pick, my pig is kept.
Williamson's choose stay in use later on which she describes going on a road trip to pick up a puppy. It is absolutely hilarious, especially the part about taking out what's of cash without being a criminal. So my pig is David Harsenet, pursed, title town,
Freedom is warped, love affair with communist China. This had been a long running romance.
swear. It Friedman admires at least that the Chinese know how to run a country competently and to make solar panels, and the latest occasion is an interview that Friedman had on CNN and her sunny appropriately. Just
yours him for it, so that set for us human listening to a national view. Podcasting Yuri broadcast retransmission are countless game without the express written permission of national magazine is strictly prohibited. This podcast has has been produced by the incomparable shitty, who makes a sound better than we deserve. Thank Charlie, thank you Jim,
thanks to Bonn, branch and a Babel, and thanks specially to all of you for listening where the editors and we'll see you
Transcript generated on 2021-03-28.