I'm David, french senior writer national view and host the new podcast liberty files join me each week as we discuss stories of freedom under fire host a conversation with America's leading experts on our unalienable rights, the essential liberties that make Amerika great were available on Itunes. Google play stature in tune in subscribed to day the Georgia special action proves not nearly a special as Democrats had hoped was it a signal. Victory for Republicans are merely reprieve

and the world is finally in introduced to Mcconnell care is better or worse than Ryan CARE. And what are its prospects for passage? I'm rich Lowry joint, as always by the right. Honourable Charles Chelsea, W cook notorious and be de Michael Brendan Dorothy and the redoubtable intent We are the editors and we will discuss all this and more on this week's addition. So Charlie. This is kind of a whole various outcome in Georgia. Six, where, after spending Tens of millions of dollars and gallons and gallons of ink spilled on on this race and incredible national obsession over it among opponents and commentators. current handle winds, pretty handily John Joseph really gain much from the last guy who ran. Maybe he felt a little bit short despite spending

twenty three million dollars more than it has ever less of the vote than Hilary and she she lost the district. I found this extremely funny, I think that you're right. That was my reaction, not because I have particular interest in this raise I don't live in Georgia. I hold no brief for Donald Trump. I don't particularly like Karen handle. nevertheless watched how much money, and perhaps how Emotional investment was poured into Georgia six and how little anyone got for it. I was also amused by the Volta fast the question of whether it was indeed a referendum on Donald Trump, the weeks leading up to it. This was cost ass. The first key determination

this presidency and the moment that also lost the second time that idea seemed to evaporate wow Georgia. You can't you can't reason with these people down there, especially not in a district such as that one. They would never expecting to win eight didn't really matter. While they were spending and it did matter and that's why they spent twenty three twenty four million dollars trying to win it now had they done so. You would of course, have seen an overreaction. and you're probably going to see an overreaction now that they didn't the press does behave. The very binary way so is also at one. It would have been a great blow to tromp. It would have been the first real fight back of the resistance. It would have been ominous. It would have been a sign of things to come. It would have been First drop of water from the two thousand eighteen wave and so on is over now that us off last

We are seeing all of this play in reverse its a great boost to tramp on its going to help his health care will get through and so on and so forth. I dont think it meant as much as that. I didn't think and a great deal beforehand. I dont think it means a great deal now. It was, however, extraordinarily funny to watch all of that effort and all of that money result in really the maintenance of the status quo yeah. I think you're right. Obviously We ve been vastly over interpreted if us off it actually pull this off, but sometimes overnight. Patients, do have real world of facts and it it might have enhanced democratic recruitment and might have cowed some Republicans where we have to take a tough tough vote on this healthcare bill coming up, but I do think it was a referendum on Trump and in some sense he did when it in in this way, because we knew the Democrats will turn out Michael and it turned out the reply

can turned out as well and just the way left as mobilise by the resistance report, can seem at least in this district, to be equally mobilized in any kind of it, a defensive mode yeah. I think the election Watson say too much. About whether trumpets succeeding or failing, I think it does say that this massive gap between where the media is on trumps presidency, and that includes us, because I think we are dragged into into the mute me mood me except by the rest of the media. and where american people are in a just you look at the headlines just before the elections in New York Times Georgia. Special action comes to a nail biting finnish and really wasn't a nail biter, and it was

struck him to see the way that the media in a sense, generated the excitement for election generated and by doing so generated an enormous outpouring of money into it and the entire attend just to buy the story of trumps disastrous presidency. already falling apart and destroying the Republican Party and the people you know just quit ITALY resisted it on the ground in the voting district. So I thought It didn't tell us a lot about Georgia and tell us what about from. I did think it told us a lot about the media environment, and this is you know, maybe the time in recent memory that something has come up like this, like iron, reminded me of the Wendy Davis phenomenon in Texas. This idea, That right here is this great progressive champion in the middle of four at America, the hard Right America and she's gonna win because pull.

go obsesses in the world and in an metro, area in New York. Metro area are going to will her to win somehow and it just they don't have the power to do that, so it is also an opposition and because he was he was a progressive champion. It in time he was denying being progressive champion and did what he could to present a more US centrist image. and betray himself as something of a fiscal conservative Bernie Sanders famously initially refused to deem him a progressive, but this didn't work. I think fur cap reasons one. It was just never plausible that the left was pouring tens of millions of dollars into this race to elect a polite, young man who cared about cutting wit Suspending had no strong opinions about Donald Two, he just you know. A young documentary film maker had now

thing and is cultural or personal background that made him kind of any different than a certain progressed type and then when it when it seemed, if you believe the polls that also might have been building a bit of a lead, you had Republicans really doubling down in the district heating him as a tool of Nancy Policy, and it appears that that attack cut ethics or let's not underestimate some of the local factors like has not living in the district. He was running for which you, if you talk to people on the ground, apparently became a real a real issue for our stand. What are well when you just rent and partners Wasn't lack of money, Philip people at the US off a victory party who were shouting not I congresswoman, not my congresswoman afterwards, I thought that's literally true, Sir John. Also it's just an amazing oversight and then to me speaks of arrogance, but the question of some prison versus Progressive ISM. If we accept those sort of crude,

categories is right. In what also demonstrated with this whole sort of can demonstrate, and especially the aftermath has has really exposed as that Democrats dont who they are Van there against Donald Trump, which is not a good place to be, and- and you can take care and handles victory is only one in a sequence and special elections. Democrats, her nose Euro four five. You know these are near. Some of these were obvious republican pick ups, but a republican claims, but artless democratic enthusiasm is not trend leading into some sort of substantive message. If you look at the end- matter- but I think it's been very clear that there's. A lot of confusion knew you had

folks coming out Melbury comes to Mind- or of others who are basically saying what much also needed to do was run run them unabashedly, progressive risk no hashtag rules, distance, focused camp of any congressmen, and the theory is that all of these reports, public him, leaning, college, educated, affluent white voters in the Atlanta suburb suburbs would go for that meant. That seems he didn't even mention Trotzky. Once I mean that's, that's complete. Nonsense anew the the The more plausible arguments, to my mind, is that he would have done better Hetty run more to the right you're trying to pick off, those voters, This is a real. This is identity, crisis within the democratic

party and they don't know how to sell themselves. They don't know whether there d be no sort of sense, first unifying party, that's willing to me some concessions on social issues or their class warfare. Rhetoric whatever the case might be, or if they're going to be the hard progressive you don't come. The Harris Elizabeth Warren Party- they just don't know- I think the one thing they do now: Is that there an actually not gonna, make the concessions on the on the cultural issues you now and he didn't give anything on abortion, on guns, on immigrants, sharon- and here I think, just even rhetorical concessions- would mean a lot and actually Bernie is probably understands where the parties should be a little better than most, where I think they do have room to move left on

I'll make. Certainly I don't think you would have heard also to come out free college, something in addition, but there are a lot, even though the suburban and highly educated district of a lot of that districts also Mega church territory, the Lahti Evangelicals and you need to give some says: you're, not hostile to their values and you truly independent from the rest of the national already and that's what he didn't do and that's what the national He doesn't want anyone to do, and we have this episode a couple months ago, where he had a guy running for mayor of Omaha, a city in Nebraska who said he was personally probe pro life and had the the entire left crashing down about his head. Interesting, because, as you, we saw this twelve years ago, or or longer, we saw Democrats react there in two thousand, for and say well

There is all these values. Voters that powered the Bush presidency back into office and in others some griping about swift boats, veterans and things like that, but very quickly you saw humor and others from a manual work to recruit conserved. Democrats to run, in the south, or you know here, there's room service of key see being pro life in Pennsylvania or he's Schuller Virginia or what's his name, You have one in two thousand and six: the Senate seed web web John Esther uneasily figures and the least made the rhetorical concessions or had some strong cultural offended. the rat was regional and you're right. You ve lost it finger and an agricultural accident, John tests. That says something right and it's

wonder two things. I wonder if success of doing that. Actually, you can only shooters bullet so many times you can only run in America nothing is against same sex marriage and then have em basically admit that that was a lie: years later. You can only do this play so many times of giving a rhetorical concession to the traveller. Did it views american voters and then Turning on the money or an office or making rhetorical fashion to them in the campaign and then doing nothing to stop a resist, once you are elected me? that doesn't work anymore or maybe it is, as you suggest that the the money and energy and that that the power

so from media on the cultural. Laughed just forbids the Democrats from from even the rhetorical gesture, but it is the point that Rostov that is made that it is extremely peculiar for a party to simultaneously believed that the presidencies ashes may be leading us into ruin and to decline to moderate in the areas that might help them. Women Richie wrote about this in your column as well, but Michael, you wrote about the problems that Democrats have instead of coming back. That ledge and I think the two reasons that they're going to struggle had the first one is, unlike in two thousand and six They have now set up a bunch of these social questions as being akin to the civil rights movement or worse as being reflective of white supremacy, and so you moderate on immigration of immigration enforcement is. Why supremacy you cannot moderate on, say gay rights,

now defined, which is not about marriage, which is not about all those basic questions, but which is about conscience. If you believe that to do so would be to put a truncheon into the face of the march. It Selma, because you can't go to your party and say will guys we need to win some seats. We just need to be a bit more white supremacist, that's not going to work, and I think the other problem here which are then you didn't write about that occurred to me this morning- is that this, he's still a hangover of a democratic party that was convinced that it was going to win and win and when a keep winning and that it could steamroller everybody who disagreed and if you look back to civil rights, the in that civil rights happened, was because it was right, and eventually people realize look of course, It is wrong to segregate people because there are different skin color to give them inferior treatment to treat them differently under the law. But when it comes to questions of, say, conscience, rights or immigration enforcement, these are legitimate differences. You could have the most

egalitarian person and the most hierarchical person- and they can legitimately disagree on these questions. Well, ok, but you have a mindset that says you know we one last time and we just gonna win this by sheer force of will you're, probably not in right mood to nominate somebody who can go into Georgia, and I actually think that some immigration force is a good thing. I don't agree with the Clinton sound the settlement at the last election, although I am less of a hawk than my opponent. Yes, we need to understand that be some people are hurt by economic displacement and so on, because it becomes an issue of principle. I think that as a birth excellent points in getting to that, the first one That's it any moderation on these issues and is considered tantamount to being in favour of segregation joyful at the rich who it's for a cause moments, mother, left wing out outfits with, was saying in a current head of the big it and I don't know The cases for her bigotry, except for that she's pro life,

I think she is against the adoption of children by gay couples again that the idea that that makes you irredeemable and that everyone who votes fires, therefore redeemable in a binary choice, bizarrely even worse than than calling her a bigger was. Philosophical reaction is well, I think. Maybe we just have to accept that we just live in a country sort of terror. Terrible human beings who have no conception of the greater good and just want to hurt people in it, that's their. If that's their response, then of course they're gonna lose twenty as it's not very. Its number actually of APOLLO the call reaction brain is it it's more of a social conscience. Action or were Reno. Even a kind of Terry in real reaction in oh, if, if it's the voice of a profit, just sort of denouncing the country, but that's not what politics is in in the end, to and fro also I'm in a lot of a lot of trumps

sins are projected on to any one else in Europe and the Republican Party, which is is silly via Might pence because he's not actually homophobic, but you know you Take the view that me anybody who would vote for legislation that Donald Trump would sign as some kind of horrible human being by very fact, then, No, you can come to some conclusion like like Joe FLIP of riches, but but who actually what you saw in this election, I think in one of the the take away so far is that vote yours on the whole are still distinguishing between the Republican Party and Donald Trump Right, and of course, you know price ran our ahead of of handle in that district, but you there's along. He was an industry for that.

AIDS and we're not we're talking about an open sea This is an incumbency election she'd, reasonably well and again, John Ass upon the aggregate spam thirty million dollars to get twenty four votes less than men, who ran in two thousand and fourteen, and he spent four hundred seventy five dollars, not four hundred seventy five thousand for seven five, the other thing about this, which I think is important and is fixed because Michael's point about media saturation related to these things is for us who are on twitter constantly in overseeing every little blip blemish in a political new cycle were inclined to to. or interpret the way that the effect that the any given in

incident is going to have, and I think that the simple fact is that most people are still inclined to give Donald Trump time, and that's it gordon- and you know the question becomes when do most serve love. headed voters start to say: ok he's had enough time to do what he said now. We're gonna, stop punishing him at the ballot box. That time is not yet, I think, that's don't think. That's unfair! but that's something that seems to have been written out of the interpretations. Ets is always easier easier to see these things in retrospect, obviously, but in Russia backed it was kind of insane. The idea that Republic has that district would voting its current handle. You know, maybe not the most impressive, most impressive politician in the world, but it completely acceptable republican because of their ambivalent feelings about Donald Trump, and this goes by

Michael's point that the media bubble is still very much alive. You know that their there is. There is some interest action about it right after the election and some awareness that those of us in in the press and the country business tend to be out of touch, but the media's it snapped right back into being is out of touch is ever and believing that people share its key, Strasbourg view the Trump administration, especially on the right. When I just don't write, I think the media bubble. one of the reasons the media bubble exists is on and twitter is, I think, at the heart of is this idea that the media about sees that it has power in within the media, that it can get certainty? I fired from certain publications that it can get people fired from there pr jobs or whatever greetings scandal. Dr drive a narrative it really in a ten, but I think it leads them to

This is the real world in it to overestimate the power that these medium millions have outside of this world, and I do think it it warps. Our perception I don't think it's obvious that this election was important as important even to the people in the dish. as it was to the media, and I do think on just a circle back to the cultural issues point I do think Democratic, overestimated, their wings on this and in a sense it seems, like the American P will have this in two, its sense of which side is being the Bali in cultural disputes so in our eighty ten years ago or fifteen years ago, there was a sense that concern and Republicans were bullying gaze

lesbians and just let them be let them have their weddings. And now I think, when it's down to you know, Should Catholic universities have you know. just protections or should you know the the one in a thousand wedding cake vendors. You now have to do the same sex wedding. I think now the position, the the perception of the UN. an opinion about whose being a bully is beginning to change. Just one final point on on Georgia: six, it strikes me that progressive put themselves and a bit of a corner and can have to get out of it. There is a concern at the moment that

everyone knows the progressive, the right they just to Vienna, law, selfish or ideological, or what you well to admit it. Now we see this in the gun debates, people say well, why don't you care about children ass? If that's the debate that we are having an you see it when it comes to economics, and you also see it when it comes to Donald Trump, and I think that in a place like

Georgia, six. The press has to understand that people are just not as amp top about politics in general and about from specifically as they are, and if you'd, if you look at the profile of the people who live there, even if they have an abstract dislike of trump in the way that say I do, even if I d illogically, they are not some patio with him. They probably looking at that stock portfolios that probably looking at the economy there probably looking at american foreign policy and they think whether their right or wrong that things are fine. Now, in the progressive mind, the Democrats

party is merely repeating the playbook that the Republican Party used after a bomber was elected because progressives believe that Republicans just mindlessly opposed to vomit, even though they agreed with him. Actually, I have a different view on that. I think that Republicans opposed of armour and supported Obama on exactly the same things as they are person supported Bill Clinton. They largely agreed with her bomber on trade as they did with Bill Clinton, but they opposed him on health care and they were mixed on foreign policy. But the Democrats don't know that they don't accept that, and so I think bathing all if we just do what they do, and we just got off the Trump time. A time and time again we're going to win what is missing, of course, from that is a vomica when the reason that it really worked for Republicans was Obama had actually done something that a lot of middle class voters were unhappy.

With, and there wasn't trying to make a safe way to our healthcare segment. I'm just seventy. There wasn't that variable in Georgia, six that would have made a straight up anti Trump campaign effective, and that is a particular proposal that the sort of voters that live in Georgia six would hate. Republicans did well in those areas because middle class voters that I don't want this bill Trump hasn't done that. Yet, despite its shortcomings, sir, to exit questions on Georgia, sex the first in total, the explosive clearly a millstone around ourselves neck did she go and will Wilshire should she yes we'll she very difficult to say. I think there have to be some significantly more pressure than seems to be coming out of the carcass. At this point, Charlie should go look. I think she should

purely because I have now heard from so many campaign operatives in so many different parts of the country who focus on so many different things that by far and away the most effective, get out the vote to EAST Nancy Pelosi I'd. I dont know what that says about Republicans. Maybe nothing good, but I've just been taught look if we put Nancy policy on television people going vote and that seems to me, like leaders, outweighing whatever fundraising benefits she brings to the party party, I think it's difficult decision both ways I dont think. Should she go. I think to wait until twenty eighteen and see if it really effects that mid term elect. That they want- maybe maybe by them the obvious she's, very poor four fundraiser she's, a very effective organiser of a majority when when the Democrats have won, but yes that is seeing this election shows that there is some downside to having her recognise

example, liberal face of the democratic majority behind. I think she should go. I think there's just very. upside to having a radioactive minority leader. One thing: if you have a speaker who overtime becomes radioactive the way new did I mean that the time is right a short, have nude, but he he became radioactivity actually delivered a sweeping victory. He did deliver a victory and and lost it, and she is still there and I know how the internal politics work out in a democratic caucus. But ideally it seems to me she'd, be a power behind someone some other leader rather than being a leader herself with She go now one other excellent, before we leave here, given even with all that we ve said rather media bubble and Democrats getting really excited about this race think is still very possible. They'll be

something of a way very possible that democratic role retake the house they have over performed and special? elections even though they haven't delivered, any of them brought any them home yet so IE, and what is your at this juncture over under for what will be the Democratic House pick ups and twenty eighteen yeah to keep in mind. As far as the numbers go, Democrats have to flip twenty four seats recent wave elections have seen parties take fifty or sixty seats, in a given election. I think sixty three seats for for the Republicans and in two thousand and ten So we're on a low end of those numbers. I think it's at this point entirely plausible, the Democrats take somewhere in the MID Thirty's, truly a runner well

I find this difficult in that politics moves so fast. Six years between Watergate and Reagan, two years between the Obama victory Victorian. The resurgence of the republican legislature. one year between the shut down in the two thousand fourteen wave, it is impossible to to guess. But given the recruitment efforts, the Democrats have made given that this time they looked likely to have a slate of good candidates and candidates who may be able to to moderate, despite the social justice forces in the party, I'm guessing that they come close to taking back the house. I'm gonna go high here. I think I think, between forty and fifty. I think politics does me fast. Think, there's also what we're seeing in America, and in Europe is that different political tribes become comfortable

loose and then find themselves feeling. seized and then assert themselves again, and I think Democrats, are becoming comfortable in the about. Yours are now uncomfortable and will find a way to assert themselves again. I think they'll do so by by winning a healthy majority, however, under is eighteen I think there is still a chance. They don't take. The house some explained to me the other day that I think this is right cut it. The difference in the agreement between eighteen and twenty five is sort of greater than twenty five to fifty is, in other words, once once. You once they are breaking a certain way. You can pile up huge numbers very fast, but I think were were there yet Charlie. We finally have, after weeks of top secret negotiations,

we finally have Mcconnell care out and into the the world. What do you make of it it's early and I need to read more but from what I can see. I don't like it. He writers that red regularly? On this whole called it Obamacare light they seem to have been echoed in that car by no less than Jonathan Gruber, the infamous architect of the affordable, correct, essentially said this morning. This isn't a repeal this is a tweaking, maybe even a saving of Obamacare. I think one Reaction to this is largely going to be informed by one's conception of what role government should play in this area. If you think that the poor bloom with Obamacare was its implementation. If you think that it went too far

and you may be ok with these changes. If you think that this is the best that we're going to get and it puts the future of the healthcare sector on a solid footing in a more conservative direction, then you may like this- I'm certainly open to that argument. If you believe, though, The federal government is far far too big that it already plays to bigger role in healthcare, did in many other areas. Then I dont think you're going to like this from what I've read, because it doesn't repeal Obamacare and it doesn't seem to radically alter the direction in which we are going. So Michael just underlining Charlie's caveats therein, and none of us have been able look at this extremely closely yet. But what do you think? I think Republicans have made a mistake in committing them

to healthcare legislation generally and I'd at the risk of being a great, simplify out, say these are the stakes generally. No health care legislation will bring about any political benefit for any party that tries it unless it does one or both of these things make health care cheaper or make access to its simpler Any build it and- and I dont think any bill can do that without upsetting employer tax benefit loophole that that creates a great system or a relatively better, some four high income earners in this country, and so I what will happen is if the amount of political damage

Republicans will receive, will just be determined by the amount of people whose coverage is upset by this bill. That just means that doesn't mean that people will die from this bill. It doesn't mean people will are at great risk from it, but it is up to. Health insurance is such an anxiety producing thing in people lives when they lose it their desperate to get it back. It creates uncertainty. The resent people who mess around with it recent. Their companies, when their policies, change and I just don't see the ups here, you know the and I'm afraid that the thief, go calculations of saving money or reducing the taxes. Just don't make the long term dent in America's fiscal problems worth the political risk that that is

likely to come, so I'm just sceptical of the entire effort. I think they should have done in infrastructure bill or something popular well, really think they should do popular things. Michael I mean its politics Idiot Harris as far as I will try to build on your wind before you was very, it was a close presidential election and its own closely divided trees. I think, when you get in Obama, made them of doing something unpopular and I think report are making these systems that have followed the Obama CARE patent almost to a t They came in. They decided to do something that would divide their party and was publicly unpopular and was fractious maybe they made all the same mistakes in doing so that Obama made with Obama having watch what happen its extraordinary right. I mean tax reform infrastructure bill. I think both

Those would have been more obvious, wins and So I'm just politically I think, really. What we're waiting for for real healthcare for reform is for a real collapse of the system, but because upper income earners their system the longest and there's the most politically important, I think we're alone lay off from from anything rational. So it certainly that process which is not the most important thing about this piece of legislation, doesn't speak to a great deal so confidence. You know that there have been committee hearings, this hasn't been hash doubt over time and There's a lot to be said for just that's the way. Major legislation should be crafted and those of us on on the right just screwed bloody murder about the process of passage of Obamacare, which looks

like pristine, normal order compared to what's been happening, both in the House and the Senate in the process over the last couple weeks has been fairly ugly and seems to have reached A fever pitch in the last couple days with you're, even the republican members and republican members of supposedly the the working team that was drafting this legislation coming out likely and say hi, I haven't seen it and you you you some of them saying I'm not not reporter lobbyists. So I haven't seen it and so you're getting these digs and at their at their colleagues and Reagan's eleventh him his long out the window or when it comes to this there are reasons for doing things in back rooms and use secrecy as such is not, certainly a bad thing, but basically but they're. Getting ready to do is

Jim through this massive, probably simply unpopular bill too, it off their document. and move on the things that they want to do, because, as Michael points out and over the course of Seven, eight years have box themselves into this corner with this promise. That was unlikely this. This religious emphasizes the Senate process in them and the bill that we ve seen if it is as bad as it looks on an early glance. It just emphasizes the extent to which there was no long term strategy of surrounding this, which is really kind of stunning to have to have talked

endlessly about this issue and then have to come to some sort of substantive counterpoint have have not to offer and again what Republicans have fallen back on is that Obamacare isn't working that insurers are leaving the exchanges you have dozens and dozens of counties across the country. Now that either have a single ensure no insurers, and these are real problems that are going to have to be dealt with, but it seems like there meeting the conditions in which they are going to be dealt with by an increasingly centralized healthcare system. You know something more along the lines of, if not actually single pared down. The line is just hard to see that trajectory changing, at least at this point Now just goes too, there is a lot to be said for just creating facts on the ground which they did with with care

and as were recording their reports, that there may be. many. There may be three or even more republican sent coming out against this thing, some sometime during the day, which would be enough to kill that those anti votes really dick, so ex a question on this Charlie Republicans politically have more to gain here from passage or more to lose from doing nothing. That's a very difficult to answer. It seems to me that this built these is no one at one level. The Democrats whatever was down if it got one dollar from Obamacare would say I going to die and the end of the world is nigh. Republicans don't seem to like this, but it doesn't seem to be popular.

on the face of it. You would assume that would mean that its bad politics, but it is possible that if this really is a middle ground, compromise between don't do anything and repeal the whole thing that they could muddle through, and it's Michael says, if it doesnt have a negative effect on people who turn out to vote may be, there won't be much of the consequence at all. I think it will tell you know your answers, Michael, but more to gain from passage. More pollution do enough I'd. Rather, I think I'd rather do nothing if I were advising them politically move on a more popular agenda. I think John. We have to wait for more

action to come in, but there may even be upside in President trumpeter, saying not good enough and sending them back to work in ya mean I have to buy my tongue, because of the southern Republicans needed to follow through on their repeal and replace promises, but now he seen three bills, all of which are pretty lousy and it seems like if they force this through theirs, just going to be more mayhem and it's going to be used. we demagogues very, very difficult to say- I think that maybe the the way to thread the needless to say, politically, even if this guy through. I dont see it being a long term help because I think Actually, it's not going to be the time

of stabilizing reform, that a lot of people have have counted on, so I think you're, the politics there is nothing good is gonna. Come from this, it's gonna be unpopular if they pass it This is gonna, be dispirited if they are and competent and can't do this thing that faith. They said for years that they're gonna do what might tippit. me is just the feed the merits which I don't know enough to pronounce on at the moment. but it was actually a decent reform and would work that is worth doing. But if it's not passing it and movie on is not how health care works. You pass it and lives with you forever. So in a terribly distressing story. This week You ve a student who went on a tour a tour of of North Korea is basically

arrest, is arrested, but a better word is adopted by the north korean authorities and return. And seventeen months later to the United States in a coma and die. shortly afterwards? What should we make it a story and what, if anything, can we do about it if, in it, a more innocent time that there be several gunboats on their way to to North Korea? And that's how I take care of it? But that's not an option here, your eminence This is a horrific story. You first of all, you're, listening and thinking about it don't go to North Korea. I mean this is this is a just despicable a regime that has spent the last Seventy years starving its own people, in order to build up its its nuclear, arsenal. They have North Korea's. In central and

is the United States. They ve never shied away from that and, as we speak there on their way to a missile, they could reach the Continental United States. That's that's part of the goal to ensure that the regime survival is just a horribly horrible place in a warm beer, the student made the mistake of of going there on a tour that was operated by a chinese tour company. There are a number of people who take advantage of it send and was a rest, on January seconds of last year an allegations. He stole a propaganda poster whether that not that is true, we don't know and probably never will he was convicted in a sham trial and sentenced to fifteen years hard labour, which is of course absurd

and then, when the north korean regime rendered him back up to the United States. Almost surely because they knew he was about diet and wanted to die within North Korea's borders. They claim that then in a coma for fifteen months, because of bottle is on, which was also just false. Neither the simple fact is that he had been tortured and brutal ized into his state by the regime. There two things to say about this one: The response to the the initial abduction by the left was by some on. The left, I should say, was repulsive with Larry, well more leaders is salon. Huffington posted Cetera, saying that basically- spawning to the initial arrest gleefully saying that this way dessert because he hadn't respected north korean law

This was an example of someone who thought their white privilege travelled with them. This was just a gruesome and and despicable line of thinking from prominent people and it's not just that- it hasn't aged well as we like to sound on twitter, but that it was a despicable thing to think about. Time and a real fear to understand what the north korean regime- and always has been out of the question. strategy. This becomes very different. As you point out, rich in in a previous error. This would have been a cause for or having your citizen brazenly murdered by a communist regime. Unfortunately, North Korea is a nuclear state and your hands are to a large extent tide when it comes to dealing with a nuclear armed power and not only that, but even in the even if you work recommended a military strike,

a military operation of some sort, justly conventional, Hence, damage that North Korea could do to South Korea and Japan where a lot of Americans even in Seoul France, and where a lot of american troops are stationed would be catastrophic. But what can you do? There are a lot of things that the Trump administration in Congress have at their disposal. We testify robust sanctions law last year, the President Obama side- it was past almost unanimously by the Senate and the house that should be bandit on and, to my to my mind, the The important thing is cutting off the funds to this regime. North Korea has astonishing access to the EU to the United States financial system and has for a long time and the one north korean banks, arse, are

her sanction and are not allowed to operate in. U S dollars. We know that the North Koreans, basically trout traffic and american currency through Chinese. Banks and veto they flag, their ships under in Fiji in, hence in the end in cambodian flags and and they they send slave workers abroad to bring back american a currency which is then of course, seized by the the regime. there is a lot of fires left. The United States Treasury can do to put pressure on anyone who deals with the north korean arms complex or with any of its human rights abusers, two basic We make sure that in no way do they have access to the dollar system, and you can squeeze this country

and and its allies, but that will require enforcement. Her, which is always the quest on this, these things can be in place or available to you will have to be aggressively enforced, including the sex. very sanctions against chinese banks and in that sort of thing, if the Trump Administration have The will to do that they can vary. They can fact very significant damage to the regime, but if their wobbly in it, then or a warm beers, deafen and North Korea's continue contain Sabre rattling will probably go unanswered so well or on distressing news. Just really quickly. Cause are running out of time. Michael there is this retaliatory attack in London. That was another,

vehicle terrorist attack. But this one targeting Muslims in revenge. What did you make of it? yeah. This is sort of nightmare scenario that I think people been fearing is some that this was a man, daring, Osborne who neighbours give various reports about whether he was kind of an unknown, jerk and drunk or whether he was the now the quiet time. But he seems too, in the last few weeks, have let his brain crack over the news of these successive terror, the tax and taken it upon himself to avenge them. And he got drunk rented a van and ran over people coming out, the Finns Bury Park Mosque mosque that you know. Some people have highlighted in the past as having extremist associations and clerics killed them

person injured more than it has an others, see. Clare that mosque very swiftly got control. The situation and apprehended him and made sure that the crowd didn't, you know, beat him death, which was very wise it ugly thing, and I think it's the fear that is back of the mind of many european leaders that, in a sense, if Europe continues to look passive in the face of terror if they look helpless in the face of it that this is just become a normal part of life that there. native citizens will begin inflicting some of their own and I bet that

be very dangerous to civil order and peace. I mean what what I think european leader should think about is that they don't want there, trees to become like Serbia in the nineteen nineties, where you just have neighbourhoods of Muslims and Christians at each other's throats, and it's an ugly thing. The british state has responded pretty wrongly they they said. This was a terrorist attack which you know categorizing. These things is a little difficult. It doesn't seem like he was part of any cell or any right wing. Extremist group, or you know, attributed it, to the English defence leaguer, or one of these thereby, but they their there, trade very seriously. There are parts of the british security state like the previous programme that address muslin terrorist, that also dress right wing terrorism. It will

be interesting to see how these policies are just any. If this gives encouragement to me cool and others who who want to crack down. the internet and crackdown on anti immigration postings social media that may come about as well. The child's shift gears entirely in yet a few lighter items. So even quickly taken recently, or maybe for very long time with middle class. British murder mistress when, when my son was born oversee, we didn't sleep, a great deal more to wake up at all hours of the night to feed him milk and damn we watched a lot great parenting by the bank. Yea we did. We didn't do anything. If he cried, we work ass, it was. I deserve no war. and there was this a shown on Netflix echoed midsummer murders which is set in rolling when those fellows for anything

because someone dies every week and has been running for about seventeen years at me. No one left in this rural town is incredibly high crime rate, but I'm ahead fan of these shows and at the time we just watching it because it was sort of mindless, and I also find it quite comforting to have on in the background without thing this to heart. I am in a foreign country and, It's very railways very, like where I grew up as you Harold these accents that a familiar in these attitudes that a familiar and the sites are familiar and waking up every two hours. It was a way of getting through it, but we ve stuck with this When I was overrunning than recently for the election. I ripped all of my parents, dvds, and we set out a lot of the time and watch these. says I'm watching one at the moment, which everyone should watch says not too many episode, Jonathan Creek about a magicians assistant, is a windmill and Please

brilliant mine who comes up with all the tricks for these, these famous magicians and because of it he is used by the police to work out. How elaborate crimes have been done, that it probably sound a bit eccentric. It is but it's it's an absurdity brilliant share, and there are now wondering what we cannot move onto when we finished it In recently, you lived out every red, blooded american males Dream so I won't. I won't talk too much about it, because some of you writing a little bit about it in Review magazine soon. I went to Texas, where you can drive a tank, which I taught him. This progress, while back and besides during the incredible inventory of of tanks from old, were too and the modern modern period at DR tanks there

also a significant arsenal of weapons automatic and otherwise, which I was able to go fire with tar, It was the ceo of the company. There was great fun and it's maybe appreciate a story that came out just this morning, which canadian sniper took out an ice. suicide bomber from too one mile away, making it the longest confirmed, kill ever recorded. Having shot some serious weapons. While I was in Texas, I can appreciate what widening credible feet. This was the only part of this story that gives me pause is that the fall of the top five longest kills recorded

Your canadian one is british number. Five is the only american So we really need it stepping up guys. Michael, you been quite taken with new printing in the Bible. Yet the m I'm one of these people that buys in he's kickstarter projects or you know little maker. Groups and things, and one project came out three years ago called Bibliotech on. It was this idea that lets print volumes of the Bible without any chapter headings, that any notes without any verse headings and just present the texts on the pages it would have been scroll, originally right, the verse number in chapter headings were all added by monks in the middle ages and it's been brought back as a project on Kickstarter As of yesterday, I got my hobby late last year, and it's just a gorgeous printing. It's five cloth bound

volumes, and you know, of course, gorged paper lays flat the accounts at most things of the Bible. You can see through the page and increasing the text from the behind the page bleed. Through into review. These are one was handsome additions. scripture. You can buy a durable process Translation has been slightly updated and dumb, but you can get your so called apocryphal books, in addition as well. I think it's a gorgeous project damn for people that love books. I think this is something to add to yourself so Charlie, it's time for our errors picks. What's yours, mine is a David French. I say which touches voids hook on the killing of Philander Castille and then the acquittal of the police officer who shot him

been charged with second secondary manslaughter at the main point David makes is that juries are beginning to believe in his view that if you can demonstrate that a police officer was scared at the point at which he pulled the trigger, then he must be acquitted. and David makes a case that, although that is sometimes true- not all three is reasonable, sometimes cops make mistakes, sometimes their fears, unreasonable. Sometimes they panic, and he is thing. I think and urging juries not to make that that conflation bit. If they do, we will end up with a de facto legal system in which cops effectively will never be punished. If they do make a mistake, I got no Dupont, Smith pronunciation him right, rode on the murky european future. It's some very good survey of recent social survey by

it Chatham House, a British, think tank that kind of surveys, european social attitudes and what Chatham House did was look at the incredible divergence between elite opinion and common opinion, in european countries about the European Union. Its sure about immigration and other things. So, for instance, the public is much more likely to believe that richer, Member states of the European Union should financially support the poorer states than elite Are there more redistributive then leads, but common opinion on immigration runs six. seven, two three four effectively ape. Permanent muslim ban on immigration and illegal is nowhere near that, and I think I know a very rightly gets them at the fact that the european future

is unknown and unknowable and resolving the differences between elite and public democratic opinion in Europe is the story of the future My biggest from the issue of the recent issue magazine and we put the peace online are highly recommended. The about North Korea, China this week is reading a little business Jane Nord lingers peace on the gray scow and graces fathers gown. She Sheng, who has been a political prisoner of the Chinese Communist Party, since two thousand nine like so many distances suffered, unbearable torture at the hands of of the party and

his daughter and wife who are now living in the United States advocate on on his behalf bag cows, she sang, is interesting in part, a particular interesting in part because he's a Christian and his published a memoir like Alexander, those needs and smuggled out of his prison cell in fragments. That's coming onto the american market in English translation, and I think it's going to- or I hope it will not only bring attention to a cases savagery by the church, these government, but also to the increase the boy endurance of of people and of faith in the darkest circumstances.

to welcome Michael into the back scratching world of the editors podcast. My pick is his covers, drawing a new issue on Jeremy Carbon, a figure. Most of us laughed at and dismissed for a very long time who is now, sadly on the doorstep of the prime Minister ship of the UK. That's it for us this week. Thank her. Thank you, Michael thank you and thank you. Everyone for listening wheel. We are the editors and I'll, see you next.