sloppy steed, then in his torn by President Trump and his ashes dumped in some obscure corner of the White House, lawn, Michael Wolf right, perhaps hottest: Washin, Expos, ay and history of hot washed and exposes we'll discuss all and more on this week's edition of the yours, I'm much Larry and I'm joint, as always by the right. Honourable Charles, see w cook the notorious B D, Michael Brendan Authority and the effervescent right hand alarm welcome everyone. You are listening to a national view, podcast. We are sponsored this week by away travel.

more about them in due course. I should mention if you're listening to us on national view, dot com. We are delighted to have you, but it would be easier for you and better for us if you made us part of your feed at tune in Itunes, Google play or sticker, and if you like what you hear here, please review us on Itunes. If you dont like what you hear here, please forget: I said anything so Michael. We had a presidential statement for the ages this week. Torches Steve Ban. It is literally like nothing. We have Seen in a modern american politics, I mean it would be like George W Bush, like physically expelling Carl row from the White House or Brok Obama, Dana David Axelrod had lost his mind, one, how should you enjoy it and to what he make of it as pure theatre. If it doesn't get any better

partly because its lower stakes right, it's not like Steve Bannon, was. Holding an important you. No foreign policy, decision making position and that other heads of state were looking to him as the Ino experts, later of America's real position whenever Trump is tweeting, so There is an element of its neck happen before, but it's also low stakes in its own way, at least for american governance, was really an enjoyable in the sense that, like barons ready Haitian has been so over inflated, and I think we'll pray and a little bit more, that it was just right the fun to see the the president pop it and

don't think, there's gonna, be anyone left behind Bannon when it's over, I dont think he has any army to command and he has been acting, especially since the defeat of Roy more more and more like a cornered animal and but now he is at the centre of the spotlight again now, not just because of what Trump said, but because the book that precipitated it and which seems to be the major source for Iraq, hand it. It seems as though there are trumpets too on board a steed ban, unlike agenda for President Trump Protectionism and isolationism, and huge infrastructure spending and hired marginal rates, but that's a small segment of them and also even for those people tromp and his career,

smart and his personality and his thumbs up or thumbs down on. Someone is much more important than see ban and ever will be. I see it a bit differently. I believe that policy views for better or for worse, Generally pretty malleable. Politics tends to be tribal, and when you give a certain set of ideas, a seal of approval of seal of legitimacy from someone who is seen as the tribal leader that can. Then lead to a shift in opinion. If you look at, z, gram right now, he is talking about immigration. A different way than he did eighteen months ago, and you could say that's trumps doing you could say that's trump under the influence of an culture and Steve Bandit and various other folks who knows, but you certainly have seen a discernible shift in a lot of mainstream republicans, and I think that's also true among voters now the thing the Barbarians defenestration. Is that yeah I mean look. Abandon is clearly an incredibly reckless at seems pretty terrible guy.

Two ways, any someone who's been willing to give a platform to other incredibly heinous terrible people. So that speaks to incredibly poor judgment on his part or maybe there's this desire to play footsie This willingness to say: oh, I have realised that Milo, you Nobblers or Paul nail, and that these people are terrible come on. I mean, are you sure you didn't realize this or when it becomes undeniable you suddenly disavow them there are lots of really seriously bad character traits, but there is a real. why there has been a lot of smart, thoughtful people of traits some silver lining. Instead bandit and vandalism, and the way that I put it is that ban and represents something other then Donald Trump being purely in this for himself. The suggestion that, yes, you know, conservatism, four Donald Trump was not perfect. There were lots of problems, and these problems were not just about. Donald Trump self delaying or what have you are his extreme? Is he

in his I'm. All of that other stuff. There were promised before when you're looking a lot of trump critical concern, those on the right there's. This perception that when and by the way, it's a reality, but some who believe that everything was basically right before this kind of warmed over. Obsession with kind of eighty supplies? I kind of politics that was all well and good. The problem is that the old, her native to that, has become excessively identified with Bannon warts at all, when in fact, lots of people, particularly here in national review. Who'd, been saying that yeah conservatism needs to speak to the challenges facing the working class and what have you been in more of a carnival barker. The problem is: do you want of throwing out the baby with the bathwater abandoned, did represent, challenge, but he also represented a million other things. Does he discredit all those years

the conservatism needs to change, and that's what makes me have mixed feelings about this moment trail. He mixed feelings. While I'm pleased I'm I'm pleased, because I don't have any affection for Steve Balance politics and I have absolutely no affection, frosty violent ass, a man. In fact, I have nothing but contempt for him. I am pleased that the dam has finally broken. I am pleased that. We are seeing the man roundly condemned. I wish it had, happened earlier? I think it is an indication of poor judgment on the president's part and possibly of poor character. The president's part that Steve Ban was ever in the White House in the first place. This is a man who invited the old right into the national Conversation and gave them encouragement and sucker is a man who turned his website in two.

A political weapon This is a man who, whether he Greece with them or not, has given a voice to some of the worst people in the United States and one doesn't have to like Donald Trump, to have liked what he said in his statement to agree with what he said in his statement and to be pleased at the consequences we have seen from his statement. I am pleased that ban has gone. He should never have been there in the first place. Yet. I think, ban and in a way with poor man, afford Trump picks, pelt Paul metaphor this campaign manager, coolly has no other alternative and twenty fires metaphor. campaign manager, he brings in banning cause is really no other good alternative. He didn't have access to really solid, respectable people

who would operate at that level of politics before and I really think Jonah Michael nail listen and his post. He talked about just incredible opportunity that sea and had he could have been a crawl row, he could have been a David Axelrod, someone who's the top strategist for the guy. President of the United States, can have size, roll on policy and being that perch for years instead, he blew it my blood, I think, unfairness, partly because of the flaws of Donald Trump. He could has never wailed anyone who hates it when other people get attention, but it pretty much as first at once and once trumped got elected, was to begin to the war on his family members and into all of us who have no aspirations to be in the Trump inner circle. We can say what what we thank you it's true about Jared Kirshner and of in the rest of them. They can't do it. Want to be in the inner circle a hugely destructive influence on the way out

in the White House and everyone hates him, as I understand it in part because he got this over inflated media image cause. He talk to reporters all the time and reporters like talking to him is colorful he's very quotable, has there these out out their opinions, and he was just for a while in a dozen paces from the of office, but his info, actually in industry. As I understand it, was basically no yeah. That's my understanding to it's interesting to because a John is right that he could have had more influence, but I question whether that would have paid out in the long run either just in the in the problem of was there ever going to be sufficient staff and expertise for this kind of more populous nationalist version of the republic party or was Donald Trump always going to have to come because of the way parties energies, are organised and basically start passing the agenda that

the Republican Senate and the Congress are willing to do ass. You know that their there Maybe there wasn't enough room to actually led them into another direction. I, like I agree with right on that, you know some of the senders and are talking immigration in a day. Way than they were before, but of course they were also expired the chastening of two thousand six, when the comprehensive bill, went down under a flood of enow conservative activists, jamming up the phone lines that sort of change has been more there's been more time in that coming back about exit. There's no way marker really are present that Mitch Mcconnell would even talking very vaguely loosely about doing anything about chain migration. Yeah I mean this. I really do think that Europe's you're, certainly right that this has been a longer term evolution in the change of opinions among republican policymaking elites. But I do think that there is

then a pronounced shift, and I think that I think that for the most part, the ship that's come with me, tromp being the titular head of the Republican Party that, for the most part, has been very bad, It has enabled people at its course and the discourse of me to get to enable certain how to things that would have been seen as acceptable before, and we don't know where this is going to wind up in the future. That's what I believe, but it also has opened for a brief period of time seemed ass, though it was opening up the conversation about a wider range of policy questions, including on foreign policy, domestic policy and opening that up could be risky right, but there is also some possibility for constructive change, and my fear is that ban and sickly ruin this moment through his and discipline through his recklessness. There is carelessness, because, if you're looking at immigration policy, for example, there is a disciplined approach here and that doesn't want approach is not really about branding so for it. but you wouldn't care exclusively about building a wall. You would care about. You verify

we care about enforcing labour law, you would care about a whole suite of other things, but the thing is that it prompt and ban, and they cared about branding above all else, Bannon claims very explicit, that he wanted chaos at the airports Riah, as opposed to let's truly do this. Let's give ourselves the strongest possible case we can make and then demonstrate that We actually are going to do this in a kind of well thought out way. That's actually administration here. That would have a very, very different scenario and then you basically doing that by focusing on We claims not the weak claimants, you actually strengthen your position overtime. Instead, they act. Blue any advantage they might have had, and so then, what and then what happens then? Is that the old forces within the party? Basically, you know that store themselves that they go back to having all the power if Steve Bed and had approached and president trumpet

if they approached immigration in a somewhat different way than even the tax reform debate would have looked different, I suspect, No, I think you can do- is doing a good, solid, unassailable travel, ban, travel order, still gets you the hatred of the left and maybe doesn't get your protest at the airport, but they we see with the tax bill you pass. Basically orthodox very conventional republican policy still causes a freak out, so they could have been competent and and still caused it what have you definite would have caused a freak out, but the thing is that the nature of the frigate would have indifferent. The problem is that what you do is you got a bunch of people who were sitting. In the middle who are either. middle of the rotors who could have been persuadable, and then you actually polarize them against you. So the thing is that I think

trumps. What he takes me, what ban and takes to be his great strategic genius is the idea that I may brilliant polarize are and what I'm gonna do is get african Americans and the steel unions and everybody else on my side of the people who hate those goddamn nfl players. And then, if I await a second, we polarize the public and weave wound up with a twin, five percent or thirty percent of it, rather than sixty five percent and you polarize things do another. Some people, the White House, are very frustrating. They think somebody's immigration issues are actually seventy percent issues on their side presented the right where right, wait where ban and seem to make everything a thirty percent issue when they are on the wrong side of up to thirty percent, because he's not a good strategy is his one conception of himself, the one claim to fame. That is perpetuated. His role in our national drama thus far is that he is a brilliant political scene, I suggest who saw something. Nobody still

who understands personal dynamics, in a way that other don't- and I think in both The arrangements we discussed that has been demonstrated to be false. Politically, he perhaps more than anybody else help to make the first few so the Trump administration, chaotic weed. need to rely on Michael Wolves book for this information. It leaked out, age, ITALY, that ban and wanted the immigration executive order to be chaotic. wanted it on a Friday. He wanted to upset the other side. He wanted to drive this as Ryan suggest from, seventeen thirty proposition, perhaps in favour of the president to thirty. Seventy proposition, the other way around, and we know from american history that six months of an administration are important

and we know, therefore, that a lot of the blame for the fast start must lie I with Steve Banner He also deserves to be condemned for not being the man he thinks he is. Find these serpentine figures hanging around men and women of power may insinuate themselves into the inner circle and make themselves indispensable, but they do not by behaving Steve Bannon has, but by behaving in the opposite way, successful Sven Ghali's. Find a way of allowing their bosses to believe that any good idea was their idea. We will hear people talk about, as I can make him do something providing I make it seem ass. If

was his idea in the first place, while Steventon does not do I also successful Spain Ghali's managed to convince the public that all successes are the product of their bosses brilliance. And Steve Bannon has assiduously tried to do the opposite? Steve Bannon has right from them, meaning told anyone who would listen, that he got Trump elected, that he was the Ark active all that was good within the Trump Administration did he understood two than anyone else who should be around him and where the problems were coming from. Michael has pointed out this I think that if you read Michael Wolf's book, it seems vs that ban and is the primary source, because the vast majority of the time That is the one being made to look better than everybody else. It's constantly

said the baron shows up to work before others abandon It was the only one who seem to understand this, or that Bannon was instrumental in fixing this or that problem at what we know of actually ban, and we know that that isn't true, but aside from the fact that it is true, it is a very, very bad way of currying. however, with a man like Donald Trump Donald Trump and Steve Bannon. Quite unlike in many ways, there is not enough room within a White House or indeed any organization for both of them. Steve banner wanted to become the next call Rove. He would understood that he would have me himself, indispensable to Trump by making him somewhat invisible and by making his mark without claiming

that he was the genius behind the throne, as obviously as he did. I think the take away here is that, for all his other fault, which are many Steve, Bannon, is not a good strategist, but wouldn't have happened and way mean when Trump gave his inauguration speech when Sean Spacer went through all the ridiculous of no talking about the crowd sizes. The media just decided this president's is not growing into his office. It's not going to happen. We are going to guess like the the laser on these guys and in particular, their seats banning, he has a black crime, on his website, he sponsored mile you novelists he sponsored these other weirdos on his sight. The its unacceptable it out to have this guy at the White House at all And you know you could even see like right away even before that

travel ban, Ino Saturnine LIVE was like. Let's put ban as trumps brain and is almost done consciously with his idea of we're going to do this and it's going to take trump off and Trump's going to get rid of them, and it's exactly how it happened. really amazing. How transparent from psychology was in this and how entertainers were able to get under his skin? So I just Don't know if bandit ever would have been long for this world you now I dont If there's a way of like ok, the guy just after having sex the country last no a note to November's ago. They could Oh then stun them again by being rolling out a really competent and then just silence the critics, sir. I am less before. We wrapped this one up it would seem and more rational world. I have no use for bright Bart NEWS, its shoddy propaganda. You feel

stupid or interior every time you go there alyssum and my experience, but it would seem the opportunity here would be all right. Declare a little bit of independence from President Tromp, we're gonna hold his feet to the fire, certain issues and call but balls and strikes on our part nationalist basis where the up seems to be happening. Word were banned, it just feels it necessary to try to crawl and grab. His way back into trumps grace you have it certainly sounds write to me. I certainly think that if you are taking a consistent, populous nationalist perspective, you could offer a pretty withering critique of the administration. You could hold their feet to the fire, as you suggest, I think, there's absolutely a place for that voice If you're, really thinking of this more as a vehicle for driving resentment and dry having anger and and driving clicks by doing those things, then, It has to be this kind of nihilistic force. You can actually adhered to some kind of agenda and stick to that and all

so. There is just this purely tribal attachment of the president, and I think that's what ban and realizes that you know he was never whenever you heard him fantasizing about running for president himself and twenty twenty mean the guy's a little bit delusional. Charlie execution rate and my python black night terms, the damage deceive bandit tis, a mere flesh wound, he's lost a whim he's a bloody stump rising is halfway between having lost limb and being a bloody stump. So a couple limbs too yeah well, I think he's probably lost both of his arms and then one of his legs has been taken off the knee ass. There is that very get Michael flesh, flesh, wound, limb stump is close to the stump now amans power was always a part of the mystery of the success of the trunk campaign

what allowed all these diverse actors and activists online or whatever, to see themselves as joined together in a project once trumpets elected that started to diminish and now his food with Trump it just diminishes them all. The more flesh wound limb, stump wrath, stuff, bans best bet is to try to win over the approval of the Bob, the rest of the world and the establishment press to kind of run hard in that direction and see if it's in there it would be a flash weren't. He could somehow completely revive his reputation, say: oh gosh after You guys, all I really cared about was raising on the rich. That's why they're coming after me now. You know it Et Cetera. I think that would be very shrewd thing for him to do, and I wouldn't rule out his doing it because he seems like a survivor to me, he's a if he loses his perch at bright barred. But it's not just that tromp has touched on is the funders

pulled out? Not they had. We had that many funders to begin with, but the mercy of the most important one. Others there's been an ambiguity about that because I say not funding abandons political projects anymore, we're not funding his ridiculously extensive Quantico security entourage, but there still gonna fund bright part. They continue to fund it with ban and at the helm, that's a big question, and then you have the candidates that these answers Canada to aren't is interested in balance imprimatur, as as they were at the beginning of the week, you ve had Patrick, more see Kelly Ward MIKE grim here in New York backing off from them. So I think, is really a devastating blow, but he can recover it. Some as just a couple lost limbs, if he still at bright part Charlie, tell us a little bit about away trouble. Your luggage should not cost more than your plane tickets

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Let's talk a little bit about Michael Wolf Book, I can't remember any washed and political book: that's had this explosive a roll out. He had a lot of help from Steve Ban, and, from the way, Trump reacted and its frankly pretty shameful for President states try to shut down the publication of a book critical of him and the one of them pics of this is why the hell they gave this guy so much acts and by more Michael Whisk account himself. It seems to be a little bit M, big USA really clear that trunk totally green lighted him embodies certainly didn't red light so you just sit around in the office or near the oval office all day, and especially in steel abandons office Charlie. What have you made it about? Why don't think it's all made up in that? I dont think that the overall picture that it paints is a necessary false one. I do think people reading it

to be careful not to take every line at face value, and just say that, because Michael has a reputation pieces going back is that the New republic, for example, pointing out that he has a tendency to em we create scenes, is the phrase that they use to take other people's were to face value, to overhear things and then to write conversation. is ass. Might a script writer. I think we also need to be careful because the White House is a den of sniping and and jealousy so I wouldn't take everything in their face value and I've spoken to a couple of people who were quoted and they said that the office paraphrase were presented as verbatim quotes. That said,

I think James follows in the Atlantic was onto something when he said. A lot of this should not surprise us. We do know that Donald Trump with surprise to win the presidency. We do no that he doesn't behave in the way of the president's. Do it's not the first time we ve heard that he sits in watching television all day eating Mcdonald's, although he has a low tolerance for brief things and detail, it's not the first time we ve heard about the way in which his children interact with the White House staff, sir, I I don't like the way in which people who already dislike the president have dropped. This

and that they would expect elsewhere and reported and repeated what Wolf is written as if it were unimpeachable truth. But I think if the aim of the White House and of trumps defenders is to make the gist of the book, seem preposterous they're going to have work cut out because it's too easily corroborated elsewhere, now, there's an old cliche that I know, you're wasting half your advertising budget by just don't know which have- and I think that applies to this book- I think probably Half of it is right, but I have no idea which half we get to the actual details in the quote, I will say The banisters seems pretty solid and I assume everything that came from Roger Ales he actually did get from Roger Ales because apparently had a very good relationship with Roger but Michael what you think here. I think, like a Wolf a very keen sense for the basic political valence of the Trump movement of the

Republican Party before it and the New York media, I do think like some of his absence nations about how Trump seems not to their stand, how you can't both be loved by bright Bart and by the New York Times. I know from seems not understand that that's just an axiom, that's just a truth of american politics. That strikes me as very true. and I think some of the comments you know some of the analysis sprinkle through is ok, but I would like, with Charlie it's obvious mean what makes Michael Wolf so interesting to read, eating compelling to read. Are these cinematic? You know snappy, you know, dialogue scenes where people are talking to each other missing their hair. In doing all these things, he would do in a Hollywood script,

that's not a part of normal reporting, because you usually cannot get enough sources to actually confirm that. I mean you're kind of his obviously working with one source. When he's recreating some of these Congress, nations and enable all the journalist know also that there is nothing worse than a quote that someone actually said it's never need, as you you'd like it's always messy, though, is unnecessary clauses and want to clean it up and would be really punctilious about it. Yet ellipses in which ruins the whole thing say. Oceans be suspicious of dialogue. That seems to Crispin compelling yeah so, but I do think speaking to Charlie's point If I do think there is a substantial part of the Trump base that will look at this, media generated by this book and say it's all fake news. You know it's all fake. I think there will be some portion of the public. That is just like

This is just an orchestrated attempt to make a lot of money, and you know what it is and to tear down this path. that meant that I, like written or any of it rich, brings up a kind of disturbing possibility, which is that one reasons this book seem so appealing so juicy. So regulatory is partly that as Journalism, professionalism and, as people become more, punctilious about accuracy, it just also becomes gray and colourless and boring and Michael Wolf is kind of throw back. some of these quotes, or are really paraphrase is that are very rough paraphrase, is that are designed to kind of heightened the drama and it gonna interesting like it I think, he's given himself a superpower while everyone also decided to do completely surrender that power, Sir Ector question, Charlie this Michael Wolf shock, you confirmed every You already believed, or set off your bs detect.

Well, the first thing to happen. If I wanted, was a he set off my bs detective, because the accept that I read in New York magazine clearly had mistakes in any one of them, with the claim that Donald Trump didn't know who John Baino was and as I think that will be used as evidence by trumps fans. That is all nonsense, and I think it would be used enough by trumps critics that it should be taken with a pinch of salt but, as I say, I think not just what was it not accept, but another excerpts has the ring of truth. In places, and so I wouldn't go so far as to say that I think it was all fabricated. But- and this is-

kind of like a wolf. Perhaps my first instinct when I, when I read it, was his at Climb Michael shocked, confirmed bs detector, both bs detector unconfirmed mean it's like there's a lot of business, but the basic characterisation of the White House in chaos with no good command structure. That's obviously true ramp night say the same as Michael one thing I just wanna throughout there is the possibility that that's kind of the whole point of the point is that, like we have this like rough narratives and it just kind of filled in that, tales for a lot of us and maybe that's a reason to be more distrustful of it. You know I mean it's gonna telling us what we're already inclined to think with an added dashes vividness. Yet in some ways the biggest political story and twenty seventeen, as you have the sky in the law, has not actually well suited for the job who held it to

gather rehash fact mean nothing terrible happened. There are very few actual governing decisions that were irrational and who's gonna go in and tell that story. What's the market for four? That book, probably nothing. I would say it just basically agree with all of you that where, between confirmed in BS detector out, say my bs detector, probably a flashing yellow somewhere between a flashing ehler, flashing red light. I just want to say one thing: the under the segment You can see the extent to which Trump has corrupted people on both sides. the reaction to a guy on twitter tweets under the handle pixelate boat. Who wrote this? absolutely hysterical parody of Michael Wolves book, in which Donald Trump had requested staff to put together for him, something called the Gorilla Channel and the star had run around, and they had done this by

getting together, bits, nature, documentaries, featuring guerrillas, and then it finished with Trump in his Chin four inches from the screen and praising the girl s when they fought one another to his liking. Now I read this and I was crying laughing last night and soil we did it out and about half the people in my feet just assumed it was true, but worse than that, then people who work journalism assumed. It was true, and you have me people even at the New York Times asking. Is this true now, that suggests to me that an- and I say this Both sides both be rule of Trump in the people of Haiti, the willingness to believe extreme things it has got out of control that this was an object. Firstly an extremely while in deftly done. Pastiche and Michael Wolf probably knows that, and by keeping

This side of the line is going to be fine. Private for awhile. As a result, I have seen it when I first started reading that parity and before I colluding I did clue in that halfway through, but at first my auntie Anti Trump instincts kicked in a girl, a channel, our selves gretta. I've got so bad that it lacks a gorilla gentle solicitor. Couple other things, just the exit questions MIKE old Jeff sessions, repealed this about my era, Nemo that had had basically said the federal government. Wasn't an enforced federal law on marijuana anymore in and states that have legalised Jeff sessions right or wrong, and this one is right: the memo was poorly concealing the first place. And a bad turn of the Obama administration, just picking which laws to enforce ran right a rough. We

federal legislation on cannabis. I imagine the federal legislation that I would want is different from the federal legislation that Charlie would want, but I do think that sessions was well with his rights, a federal legislation. You want basically believe that you need to recognise that there's going to be some scope for some kind of legal cannabis market, but I also believe that it should be stringently regulated states. Should a very narrow bounds with win within which to create these markets. My preference would be that You only have a kind of a market that is owned, controlled, operated by the public's. which I know it surely will love now, but I would praise I will state monopolies or all. Joking aside, I would praise you ran for sounding like right hand on the question of my want of some in their crack me up yesterday. A great deal is level and riots have like right now. I don't know about that, but generally should be more dangerous for that. The debate over marijuana in the United States leads people too.

sound and to take positions that they would normally, and so you end up ass. We saw yesterday with hard core libertarians talking in possibly about the tax revenue that this will bring in four governments. Schools, while people once a microphone regulate all of american life style, sounding like libertarians on the question of marijuana, so one other topic and this would have been a huge new story, but it really it it faded Monday Tuesday of this week, we had significant unrest, in IRAN had president tromp speaking out in favour of the the protesters and Michael I'll start with you on this one as well as the question. Should the United States be attempting to foment, or at least support to the extent it can revolution in IRAN You had asked me first, I would say the ass short of

the: U S should just one alone strongly that certain measures to repress or or suppressed these protests will be punished in also mass killing. You know show trials things like that that the EU should They very certainly this won't be tolerated felt. So when what would you have However, a reflex, it's been proven correct last ten, there's more, I would like to admit that actually, for many revolutions places doesn't always work out forever. would you make an exception for IRAN or you still be cautious about I'm just cautious about it, in that I dont know that there is a leadership for the Iranians, a future raining government that could arise from this particular movement. You know an interesting movement in that its its it started,

You know among even a conservative part of the country no one has to do with in just average depositors getting you know, screwed out of their deposit, their banks and things like this, but then it spread so, but I think in the west. We shouldn't fond either temptation to either say like this revolution is: nothing we want it to be. Its liberal democratic flowering that we're ready to sport, but ass, I don't think we should be to send. go and say: oh, it's hopeless or every democratic aspirations, Middle EAST end in disaster. I dont think that either I want us to go to the opposite. sir, I have should we yes or no. The attempting to format revolution era of rich Is it you know. I have to give up slightly long, winded answer, so I believe,

That's what we're seeing in IRAN right now is a bunch of different stuff you're, seeing protesters encounter protests you're, seeing some folks who were meta essentially individualistic liberals were critical of the Sharia staid and you see others were defenders of that new, believe it. It's not rigorously stringently enforced enough right. So it's really hard to know like we, Where is this revolutionary foment heading? There are versions, but I certainly would want to spur on and cheer on so that there is also this fine line where the more we cheered on externally, the more the Iranian can say this is just a foreign plot that is designed to undermine and neither can of course, trouble in our country. So, in a funny way, we could actually engender this sense that this is not a genuine real grass roots movement right. So my thinking is should do what we, did in the seventies and eighties, which is basically financed. The truth you don't have liked support. But who want to tell the truth about various abuse is happening in IRAN and also disk

try to see to it that actually people are able to get information in and out of the country. I think that's a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Another thing is that IRAN an older country, its birth rate fall, has fallen steeply. One then you see is that when you have a really young country, you might have more revolutions. You might have, moreover, throes of the government, but then you move right back to an authoritarian government, whereas when you're, an older country, when you have that kind of trouble, you are somewhat more likely to actually get a stable, more representative government on the other side. So that's why I'm actually pretty optimistic about the prospects of God. a more representative, more decent government in IRAN. But here's the problem that government gotta, be a nationalist government that still gonna be odds with United States. So there are no easy answers here. Charles.

It is in the american character and can be removed to encourage other countries to be free? The question is what that means. The declaration of independence, cost of ancient said was decidedly for export, by which he meant that it may claims there are political, not just to british colonists but to everybody, and you can't go back on that. That is the centrepiece of the american ideal. The problem, of course, with that, is that can lead you to be hasty or to fail to distinguish between situations and the early republic. We saw this Thomas Jefferson back. The french revolution, for example, which I think was a bad idea, So the question here is: is it more likely that be Present iranian regime will be replaced by a robes pm or by a glorious revolution and

its extraordinarily difficult to answer that because we don't really know what's going on so in the interest of prudence, I would side more with Michael HAM, and so the United States should be giving vocal and moral support should be reaffirming the self evident truths on which its based and Ass Ryan suggested should be funding. Anybody who is willing to stand up and tell the truth, but until we have a good idea to what might come next. I think moving money, material troops, CIA agents, that should be done with some humility, I would do everything we reasonably could, but I have to say that the decoration the impasse argument. I know you're not going as far Charlie, but that there's some friends who really think that you're ripping up the decoration of penance if you dont have robustly and and radical in some ways idealist.

foreign policy where that doesn't doesn't seem to oppose it. As if you go back clear surrounding you would see both that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, believe in those ideals, but also made almost identical speeches, while president asked her America and its role in the world that role being one of of morality in and independence and distance, and not getting involved in other people's affairs its later with Woodrow Wilson. You start to see I'm just suggesting that that America is always going to be tempted to do this because is built upon. Individual freedom, which applies to everybody and weather take a wheel, Sony and path or a John Quincy. Adam path, in my view, should depend, at least in part on what you think is likely to happen. As a result,

yeah. I think, in this case, is not just a dictatorship, its viciously anti american dictatorship- and this is ironically, the country and the greater Middle EAST that I think does have the most robust civil societies, as is the greatest chance of of this thing, not going going south again. worse. If this this government is toppled yeah, I will I want to add to that the I totally agree with your point on their robust civil society and its also, I mean in the long term. I mean I've, always cautioned against thinking of islamic terrorism, in the same terms that people thought the cold war as a great ideological struggle that you know, but there is an element of it, you could look at around and say since nineteen you know since the revolution. Is longest. Thought has had more purchase in the world than it did before then

You know, intellectuals and political movements are attracted to forms of power. Even so, as you know, when communism declined communism decline as an alternative to an American, let order when you know now that Putin is kind of I know a little bit of a grip on his regional thing. Some intellectuals that are dissidents in the west like look to him as some other alternative model, and so As long as that regime in the Islamic Republic exists in IRAN and we have lino a kind of government in Saudi Arabia, that is, the sunni version of it is Lompoc. Islamist thought is going to carry greater political percha yet, and that was one of them had a dual fact, because I didn't just radical radicalized Russia, radically. Societies can push the Saudis and a more radical, so you're angry from communism to communism.

had had a few other real, quick things. Before I got Charlie. You then obsess wherefore kittv, while my father and I just got a fork atv and we ve been staying with him and now I can't watch anything else one of those things that you don't know you like a need. Until you see it, I was quite happy with ten ATP ass. I was quite happy with what came before So what is Fork ATV? I get on my neck news from you on this podcast ultra high definition. Television sets roughly four times the quality of hd and there's two reasons for this. Firstly, it is demonstrably better, but also its a way of getting high definition, images onto biggest screens without losing quality, but on an honest man a screen- and I say smaller, relatively ANA, fifty and screen, rather than on a hundred and screen it looks glorious and it's difficult afterwards to watch lower quality television and the press

It may, of course, is that almost all television is not in for K. So I sort of ruin myself by watching this Michael, even thing about the history of watch making yeah, I don't know freedom in our listeners noticed, but there's a website hosting key dot com, which kind of is the elite journals and site about her ology watches and wristwatch. Making and Joe Thompson Worth is great for part series to end the year last year about the last for decades in wristwatches, and about is essentially about the the challenge of quartz technology, which can have took away a huge, almost destroyed the that the whole tradition of traditional automatic watch making where you know you haven't escapement and a time and you win the war,

toward the watch wines itself. As you wear it, you know he kind of traces. The rise the leader of the renaissance of traditional are making in the nineties and early two thousands, it kind of falling again and now the digital watches that are coming on the other end, and it's just like a beautiful series. There's there's great political into I'm kind of fascinated by the story, this town injure me glass Hata, which was where a lot of German. watch making was done. Its rang your Dresden and during the cold war in the GDR, basically combined all of the firms into wine and force them to make like people's watches, which are really like uninspiring technically and design wise and then after the wall came down. Just you know these old aristocrat crime

Families were associated with the old watch brands and these other capitalist came in and built all these new watch brands again or revived the old ones in this Germantown and make unbelievable pieces No, it's just like that's covered in this series is just kind of great it's. This little world watch world is insular very elite world. But if you can trace his three engineering arts and all these other and commerce all in this kind of little world. It's just great, luckily loved watches in the nineties, he wrote a big piece about watches for national visa. I'm thinking pitching Linford an inner certain glass her right hand, you gonna go in total unliterary on a second, my wife, and I ask, I have mentioned on an earlier podcast I've been reading to each other, and the latest book we read is a no

by the South, India novelist, defection bog. It's really really sure you could finish it. You know in a sitting, if you were so inclined, it's called gotcha go jar and its out this family that used to live really on the edge of poverty and then suddenly achieves great material affluence and it's kind of about what happens to the family. The relationships among the various family members, in the intervening excuse me in the following years, and its really beautiful and ETA I was honestly really taken aback by it's the first novel this guy has actually had translated into English, I'm eager greed. More. I have a complaint about arcade games. I was in it Big movie theater. Recently it has a little compliment of arcade games near the concession

stand. You know that the game you worry, you have that the clause that comes down to get a minute, you put me in a four hours in a claw, comes down and there's some incredibly alluring toy or stuffed animal for your kid, just so frustrating right on the thing like just directly harbour. The thing in the car is fixed not to be other pick anything up ray it's just the worst where's that Consumer Protection Bureau Elizabeth Warrant, yet this autumn so, it's time for our editors picks. Rambler start with you. What's your pic, I really enjoyed peer power, a barbarian Pisan. Argentina's economic come back it's in our forthcoming print issue and I I think you'll enjoy it truly. Why, like you ve all ovens, absolutely devastating peace after Donald Trump Interview with the New York Times in which he points out that Donald Trump often does not know what he's talking about in this particular case, health care policy, which is given

events, great passion, I suppose so you have on one hand, Donald Trump and, on the other hand, evolve in which wouldn't be a fair fight, even if our trump we're interested but Donald Trump is not interested and the results of his trying to be farcical. Ass. You ve all points out Michael any Mccarthy on New year's day wrote about the New York Times what he calls the Russia Reset and I think it's a worthwhile keys, because innocents, what would Andy's been doing consistently, I think, is just actually lining all the facts. We know up together and trying to find what Sir he's being told and instead of just what happens everywhere, where there's just as black squid ink of suspicion and intrigue.

Russia, Andy lines at all. Events, as you know, in fact, what's happening now. Is the FBI's changed its story on what exactly precipitated their investigation during the campaign and that it is now more topical one on George Papadopoulos, and this is obviously based on what Miller's been able to squeeze. But what were not finding is a coherent criminal case, and what were also seeing is that it looks like the FBI relied on shoddy political document drawn up by the clang campaign, which they should have been able to figure out and if, if they relied on the document it it does not look good. the beginning investigation altogether. You ve made me hungry for squid ink past. My pick is David french purse from over the holidays, about this, Alex Marlowe Interview with sea out

four darcy of CNN Alex Marlowe, the editor in chief of bright barred and for some reason out. Marlowe just confessed told Oliver that he found the very worst accuser against Roy more Leah Kaufmann, who is a fourteen year old time At the time found her mostly credible and basically confessedly, covering four Roy more, which is a dead stating admission and David French wrote in a properly withering post about them. and a sign that a really strong is at all over Marlowe went. whining about it on their serious exam show or Stephen was trying to say. Look kid. Please, you gotta honey badger, this honey better. If you don't care what they say, they are relevant. Now, it's like you. I don't care, but this ring they're lying about me when they lie it, it echoes throughout the social media and that they don't matter. But while this this really bothers me any it wouldn't actually point out anything that was wrong about post and the corset

Rambling conversation, Steve Ban and lied about Jack Fowler serve in Trump style, want to ban, as things is, trying to be a little many tromp and says Jack's our met with him a cordial get to know you kind of thing a year and a half ago that that Fowler begging him for financial, finding donors, which was completely untrue, and I wrote post about this myself- that On that day, I was really hoping would be. The harshest thing written about Steve Ban, and I called the post honey badger lies through his teeth, as it turns out President Trump. on that day, released a statement on stable and I wasn't gonna, be anything harsher said or written about Stephen and on that day, what that's it for us. Thank you, Charlie thing. you, like all, thank you right hand thanks to, they travel, thanks to all of you for listening Are the editors and we'll see you