Either. This is Charles Cook, editor of National Review online. You may be wondering why you're getting the editors on unknown added his day, but worry not I'll, explain. A full episode of the additives will be up ass usual this coming Thursday, but for now we have a special edition for you from time to time. Writers, thinkers politicians and other public figures swing by offices here in New York. This week we welcomed Douglas Murray, the british author, who has a new book out titled the strange death of Europe immigration, identity, Islam today, Michael Brendan Dorothy, sat down with him for fifteen minutes to ask him what it was all about

hello, illnesses, Michael Brandon, dirty from national review, and I'm here with Douglas Murray, the author of the strange death of Europe, immigration, Islam and identity, Douglas Welcome record to be with you. Thank you Douglas youve, authored several books, but this one, I think, is the the one causing the most controversy like the greatest sales. First, I just for people, don't age gives a little description of year. Of your background and and I chose to wrote this right, this book shop, I'm jealous and also have been since I started out pretty much. I've had my first book, which is a livery biography. When I was quite young came at last, I was at Oxford and

since then I ve gone for writing, unlimited writing about politics and written about security issues, terrorism, Northern Ireland and allow europe- and I suppose the the one thing they will have in common is: first: will there all books about subjects which has galvanised me and indeed obsessed me and also to some extent, books about things that the people? So you don't want you to say. I know about and write about, difficult store

at this point. I think this year, and in these months everyone knows the problem. You are addressing mean every few days it seems, there's a headline screeching out of Europe, the Manchester Bombing London Bridge before that a year in France of one terror incident after another. Just before some listeners, you don't know, can you give just a quick sense, the scale of immigration from the muslim world into Europe over your lifetime I am particularly over the last two years since Angela Merkel is big, invite wears a huge story, and I allowed the history and now two chapters of my book and To give you an example. I set one point: everybody knows the famous speech of he knocked pals, circled rivers of blood speech in nineteen, sixty eight, if in nineteen sixty eight you'd have said to me, not pal, you ve been his speech

I do indeed said inorganic got a great idea of your speech. Why don't you say that in twenty eleven the census will find that people were identified as white, british or minorities? in our powers? At what are you doing you turn of Angela, like a crazy man? Why don't you? Let me do my rooms of gloves beach. we warmly received then this is, however, this is what happened in twenty eleven cents. A showed that in twenty three out of four three labourers be broadened his white british you're in a minority. Now there, obviously all sorts of things about that that there is actually no problem with all those things about that that a good and all sorts of things which are enough to begin. We downsides, including cultural changes and idea changes which I will come in its wake and I think this is just a version. Is something has happened across the continent and what happened in twenty fifteen, which is one of the central points of the book with the invitation Angela Merkel basically to the entire world was an extra. Everything she she thought that you would like

The doors of Europe to asylum seekers, but the Eu S own admission within months, most of the people who went and twenty fifteen through the external borders of Europe, which are basically disappear. what people have no more right being Europe than any one else in the world demanding than the question who is Europe Who is our continent for? Can it be for the entire world? What what's interesting about your book too? As you bring up this? It is not just one of a series of books that have come out of the last decade or so that the go through the numbers, but you also go through the ideas in Europe yet and dumb one of the things it's interesting. That would be interesting to think american listeners is in it. You talk about some of the justifications that have been made for this mass immigration and one that would be unfamiliar to Americans, Is this idea that a mirror that Europe deserves to be punished? Yes, it's something that I've heard you talk.

the right of scrutiny and other Europeans. What what's that come from cows in America? Aids diversity is just an unqualified blessing think I think you have a small version of it if I can say so as an observer of your society I give some examples from the book- is my belief that the west in general has has fallen for a sense of guilt that the rest of the world does not share and does not follow itself. Obviously, got the was versions of that you can see in Germany and for legitimate reasons. Some holocaust guilt, however, has spread across Europe as a whole. and I think that's a gilt, including the founding gilts of colonialism, exist very strongly: these also come here. I mean I've I mentioned, book that Unreason twenty or thirty years, in particular notice that in America you have versions of this. You know I think the idea that America suffers from original sin that you were so

wicked from the beginning that you destroyed Eden Columbus destroyed Eden and that can see. They are just finished. Reading Naomi Klein's, new book issues, other absolutely classic thing in her thing is a basic if it handles for the awful Europeans who created the awful Americans in America would be wonderful. Is fascinating. You talk about little bit about how the spread of german guilt around the continent that even somehow all of Europe did the Holocaust and and it seems that each one, in european society can invent. Some version of this idea our society needs. It needs to be deconstructed in Riyadh again And and, and that we are rather boring, stayed places, I mean no one so commonplace. You say we need this because it with its interesting who wouldn't want more. trains to bring us cultural gifts, and, of course,

the reverse, is never true. No one ever says whatever it. really needs is influx of people from Wales, You could bring a whole range of gallantry delights and had them and familiar pleasures into this rather boring african country. I mean you never hear that, and for good reason is its very insult. where do you see this debate going, I mean I think, you're you're witnessing Europe the reception that your own book is in a time where these questions are as hard as they ve ever been and I think you and I both maybe ten toward the pessimistic view of of the near term future. Wit. Where do you see it going? It does seem that in a way Maybe more and more people are waking up to the idea that see them the muslim communities, building up grandma a ring of Southern Europe, Paris and they think that they are now,

one into the Michel well backs idea that this is a real vivifying for As for our national shirt, when something we can learn from so where is it actually going? I think is, a very bad in the immediate future. There's no need to be an optimist about it, because the evidence doesn't point that way and as for the scrutiny mentioned earlier than fancy said in their love, damage has been done by optimists. There is no need to get high on the same stuff, as they have, I think, is very, very bad in the short time. I think that too and attacks across Europe show that, but of course, we have to try to find a way out toward the end of my book. I give a couple of chapters where I think would be broadly speaking, answers Some of them are very practical. Warehouse stem the flow of, for instance, of people into Europe, which is obviously the first thing that needs to happen.

but also you know I'd try to change my readers to address also what it is about us. We need to be more serious about and think this is something everybody quite often readers of said to me and written we say, but we know what can we do as it were had that for some years and in this book I try in part to say before I think no helping to rebuild a serious culture consists of. And the level of seriousness we should have towards it by the way. It's no surprise to me that make my critics of totally failed to pick up this. This challenge they they almost just refused to do it, but I do think this is absolutely right. After all, if you are to arouse yourself to a defence of your culture, you need to live in your culture and enjoy it and and celebrated and also know its depths. We have been

I say an introduction I, but we ve done, is strange thing in recent years, because we needed to track, but will rather because we ve needed to sort of encompass the whole world, because her worlds outcome our societies we ve had to make very shallow self definitions apply. Our societies are about being nice whence than talk about being torrent, first and then that's a very very shallow unnecessarily. Shallow definition. Is necessarily shallow because it so wide. I think we have for if we have to bring ourselves to, among other things, saying what we don't want, as well as what we do to acknowledge that the language of inclusion also demands a language of exclusion, demands. You say what you will

tolerate and what you will do about that, as well as what you love and what you wish to protect. So it's an interesting way to look at it in one argument that is came gained steam and I think it might be one last ones to address, but my american punt, since there is an argument now that well, terrorism isn't really a serious issue at o kills negligible People in that you know, is likely to die. Your underwear, women, some long statue them falls upon you as a terrorist at the Un Real danger is islamic, Obiang itself, it's kind of become, though the argument of the juice box set over here we say what would you say to those who look at headlines of Europeans and innocent, save other One thing to do here shrug DES awhile. I it's fascinating.

First of all, I mean the obvious thing with that and there you Harry suggests, exert passed round where soda giggly liberals after every attack and more likely to be killed by your toes thorough. Your lawnmower ha ha you well. If you discovered that your taste or lawnmower killed you in badly injured, you killed your wife and you found out. The factory was deliberately wiring toasters or long nose in order to kill their owners. You would fill a gentleman in oil and we are talking here about a deliberate, Miss wiring of people. To make them hate us, and that should be given some attention and we shouldn't simply giggle it away. The second thing is, of course, it only works for a bit that kind of argument you ve got to make sure you don't friends and choose Paris and twenty fifteen as your your your litmus test or New York in two thousand and one, and that the bigger problem about this is, as you say,

that that people PETE people see certain attacks as being more serious and others we just had for those were speaking the first effectively sort of seems. Revenge like attack horrible as it is to use such a term of an attack by somebody, it's appears almost wish, was coming up mosque in London and has enormous willingness, and quite rightly, to find out why somebody would have done something so appalling, an unforgivable environment. But we just need apply the same rigour and concern to every attack and find out who's teaching. These limits to do what they do where they get their support from, and that I'm afraid society would seem at them with moment not to be willing to do, and I think that in the in the short term, that's a very, very big warning sign of the problems we ve got coming ahead in the long term

On that. Pretty grim note: this is Douglas Murray, the author of the strange death of Europe, which is available soon, it booksellers all over the United States supply. permitting, and I am MIKE Open and Dorothy for National Review. Thank you. So much Douglas. The great pleasure,