July 1999. Carlsbad Caverns National Park in New Mexico. David Coughlin and Raffi Kodikian were best friends. Both from Boston, though David was preparing to move to California. Raffi joined him on a cross country trip which would take them about five days. But a decision to stop in Rattlesnake Canyon in Carlsbad Caverns National Park would prove to be too much. Though they were cautioned about the desert and being prepared, they thought that one night wouldn't be a big deal. Days later when a park ranger located their camp, he discovered only Raffi had survived. David was dead and Raffi immediately said that he was responsible. But was this a mercy killing as he had claimed? Or was there a motive for murder?
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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How an extent vacations a lot of the cases recover earn there's always too imperatives. Is this murder or is this suicide? this murder, or is this something else allow the times. We don't explicitly spell out what the narratives are. Sometimes we feel it's obvious sometimes we say things off the cuff that seem out of context because were speaking to one of the narratives, but we're not putting it into context of here are the two narratives, and this is why we say something sometimes things that we say or very much out of context and people will now
I understand where we're coming from so probably do a little bit better about that, but this case has two narratives cold, blooded murder or a mercy killing, and it's about two friends that go on a trip into twilight zone parently. Let's give us summary justin on august fourth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine rafi kodi, and David Kaufmann, who were best friends, hiked into rattlesnake canyon in carlsbad, canyon, national park, new mexico, It's only stay for one night, but they got lost on their way back to their car, at least according to rafi, and things took add turn after that, and only one of them made it out alive justin. Where does this up again? david and rafi were four for a long time David was raising. Supper about side of boston. He
to the university of mass at amherst after graduated he was working in the town of wellesley in september? Ninety ninety nine david was going to begin graduate school As you see Santa Barbara, he, to get a masters degree in environmental science. He had a girlfriend at the time. Sonnet frost loved the name rafi. He grew up in pennsylvania, doylestown pennsylvania. It was pretty close to philadelphia He went to northeastern university journalism, major lived in west roxbury area of Boston.
He was really into journalism because he was inspired by jack. Kerouac jack had written, multiple books and articles and what not one of the books has called on the road. Is this whole long story about his travels so rocky he had wrote several freelance stories for the boston globe. They were articles about his one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven solo cross country trip that took him ten weeks and across twenty five states he camped for most of it and after he graduated he worked at a financial firm. So we took this road trip because you was inspired by that jack Kerouac book, and he really wanted to do this road trip again, especially with his best friend David, when David was planning to drive to santa barbara by himself, rafi wanted to go
but it was really short notice and he didn't think he could take time off. Work David delayed a little bit trying to make it so it would happen but really and the beginning rallies like can't go but I'll help you with this road trip any took time to pay and it out which way he should go where he should camp and stuff, because rafi was planning on joining him and it was very ass minute. There if he was allowed to take off work ngo, so not exactly a planned trip with rafi, so the trip was planned to be a five day trip and they left Boston and headed to boils town which is rallies hometown, and then they went on to visit, Dave, sister and virginia onto now Phil Memphis new orleans and then on to austin Texas. It was after that that they decide to
want to carlsbad new mexico, but why justin? Well, that was where they were going to camp in the desert That was his inspiration. His solo trip was. He was very taken by the vastness and the mystique of the desert haven't they spoken with someone who had given them. Some different options will once they got there. They stopped for gas at a texaco station and the gas station attendant was just asking they're up to a name were telling him that they're gonna go camping and they wanted some options so the text. Co gas station, attendant said you can go camp here. Or you can go to the caverns, meaning carlsbad caverns, and they thought that's on a great. So
went with the second option and went to the caverns, and what this was a huge national park. Will it's actually one of the smaller national parks, but it still thousands of acres. So it's pretty big and when they get their day talk to the ranger station. They get a camping permanent for one night and then they go. Park, their car down on this parking area, and then they pick up their bags. Their tents bottle, Gatorade, Gatorade, a few bottles water, some beans, some hot dogs, not much because their only planning on staff one night. Now this park is actually in the two while one desert- and I looked at-
but apparently that, while on desert is the largest desert in north america, it's fast now this park is not the biggest part as far as the borders of it. But this is a huge desert and it can be a pretty scary place. They end up walking anna, like a mile from the car down into a place called idle snake canyon that sounds friendly yeah. They go down into this canyon and there's these little stones that are placed the beginning and the exit of the trail they're called cairns, yeah and they're. Not that obvious.
wait as much as some people will be like yeah they're, the the markers for the trail while there's rocks and stones everywhere? So these are just semi out of place, rocks that mark a trail, but these stones are other places. Naturally, so it's not the clearest markings, but it's you know if you're just out there with the kids for the day, sure I'm sure you could find the stones so that night they are drink there, gator aid and as their cooking, their hot dogs there like. Oh, we need some water to boil them, so they use like one of the bottles of water to boil these hot dogs and they only have like three bottles of water, they enjoy the night and the desert. It's pretty incur level. So is a wednesday night since there Staying one night: they don't they know they don't have and stay there. Multiple night, so they didn't come prepared for a stay itches. It's like a stop, in fact
they probably had more supplies on them. Then I would have brought I would have had like my phone and sleeping bag. That's it. Water. I don't even know if I would have had a bottle water, but yeah well the rangers station, though the person there told them hey view go out there, You need to have a gallon of water with you per day, thing in night, so they're like we don't need all I mean they got to the right. Andrew station at like six thirty ish and weren't setting up camp until eight thirty years. They are planning to leave first thing in the morning and at eight thirty sure, the sun's down and there a little in a hurry to get their camp set up. Also, they were looking for campsites in this place, doesn't have campsites his places just open, desert roughing it yeah. There's, there's no lamping happening here. Yes, funny
as people who say they. I went camping but generally, when you go camping, there are markers their dedicated camp sites and hack. A lot of people they go up in their ease or they bring their campers along. But these guys really know much about camping the desert. Do they nothing? They know nothing. They are city slickers from Boston and philly. I mean come on. Ok, so Let's, let's talk about this because they're planning to leave the next day and so you would think this story is going nowhere because they just get up and head back to their. and drive away right, yeah, but they're camping in rattlesnake canyon, so they pack up their stuff morning: they drink any water, they had left, they were told to
Leave no trace witches pack up all your stuff, no garbage nothing and take it all with you. So they do that they start hiking back up the side of the canyon. and they follow the trail into a field. And then, in about a few hundred yards, their back on the river bed back at the bottom of the canyon, so right, we just went in a circle at sight. The blair project movie, where they think they're heading one direction. They end up back where they started and technically they're, probably not even back where they started. They probably just went further down into the canyon because it- and even though there are going downhill cause, they thought there are going uphill, so they totally missed the entrance to the trail to go back to their car they start walkin around some more still trying to find that entrance they're laughing about it. You know it's like Eight thirty in the morning there wandering around
by noon. They actually pull out their map that they bought and its ia topographical map and you think, while they have a map, but he realizes before gps. and stuff was a big hit. How many of you know how to read a topographical map? Have you looked at one? Yes, I was in the military's was trained. How to read one. I was never taught how to read one, and I think it would probably be next a useless for me. I think you would actually be next. useless for most people unless you are trained in the fact that rangers are selling this map for in dollars, or whatever was Europe you might as well have handed them a bar soap see You think we're having all this information. They could find their way around and find their way out, but you know I just imagine that it would been better if they had just taken a scrap of paper out and just
squiggles some lines and some arrows and put north on there and said If we want to go to come back out o wherever they park their car, they should adjust pitch their tent right next to the car, but that wouldn't be an adventure. Justin no wooden and one of the reasons they went there is they wanted a hike a bit right, yeah apps Clearly, they wanted to go somewhere where there wasn't any civilization, so they could see the stars and just be a private area by noon their splitting up searching for this. This entrance by noon. The temperature is hit a hundred degrees and they still have six seven hours more daylight of hundred degree temperatures their sweat and bad, and when it starts getting dark again, they decide. You know what we're gonna go, find some shade cool off and
I guess we're spending. Another night here will set back out in the morning now that night there there's like three mountainous peaks that they can see. What appears to be car headlights goes past, one of the mountainous peaks. So they go. Oh my gosh. There must be a road up there must be cars up there. They decide in the morning that they're gonna look for that entrance one more time, but they're gonna go walk up to the top of that peak. find that road where they saw the headlights of the car, so they go to sleep, no more hotdogs, no more water nothing in the morning. They get up a start. In their way up this mountain and it takes them through three to four hours to get to the top of his mouth and every time they think they're at the top there not and they ve sweated so much that D hide. Nation is already setting in their eating
it'll, berries and stuff off cactuses that are kind us and sour. You know if it they're bitter, if they're not ripe and they finally get to the top of its peak and they're. Just at the top of the mountain looking over the entire desert, there's no road and whatever they thought they saw the night before headlights. They didn't see that maybe it was an airplane Maybe it was just light somewhere else bouncing off the peak, but there's no road, there's nothing from this height It said that they should have been able to see their car, possibly thee, and your station and other things, but according to them, then I'll see nothing there. There exhausted tired and are angry that they just expend all this energy.
Climbed to the top of the mountain to find nothing. They have a journal on them, a spiral notebook and there are actually writing in it. Here's one other entries after they ve expend all his energy help help we filled out a back country card on Wednesday evening and headed down camped wednesday started back thursday morning, but couldn't the entrance to the trail leading back to the car looked all day. Thursday slept here thursday night, headlights on mountain number, three khazars, three peaks We have minimal water had been eating cactus fruit. We need help. We headed towards what appeared to be a ranch foundation. If we re Our car. We will go back to the visitors centre and the attempt to come back now found this decimated ranch, which was some old ruin and at that point rafi doesn't pass out.
What what I call the military's falling out and that's when year you pass out from exhaustion, he'd exhaustion. What not andor rallies telling Dave leave me. Cocoa help The guy can continue on and Dave, says. I'm not gonna leave your buddy, I'm here for you and they find some shrubbery. Three they find somewhere that has shade, because that this desert son, you ve, never been in it. It is wholly wishes and they're just trying to find anywhere to get out of the sun, because it so hot, also shrubs at their trudging through or getting underneath. They have thorns and its tearing their shins apart and if they stay in one place too long, fire ants
start biting them. This is a miserable existence. Right now there are hot their bleeding and there being bit sounds like a great camping trip done at her, and now you want to go to rattlesnake ending with me up behalf we have a water truck with us, yeah so running out of water out of food, and their living on this. What is it prickly? Pear, cactus, yeah, it's like the subtle bury thing: that's off there, the cactus there eating it, but it's making them sick, isn't it well. They think that it's giving the moisture but a funny thing about this cactuses. If it's not ripe, it will make you sick. It will make you vial
huntley ill. So they think that they're getting substance and they don't even know if this cactus Barry is poisonous or not. It's only edible when it's ripe and they're talking about how bitter it tastes or how sweet it taste, while they're eating both ripe and unripe. cactus berries. There are symptoms, associate with unripened cactus that includes bloating, isn't vomit part of it. Diarrhoea lightweight, you said there was, they think, they're getting sustenance. So what's going on, is they think they're doing their best to make it? But it One feels like they're not going to make it like their bodies are just not coping any more to them. It's you started. Hope because you don't have. Your body is not
It's bonding to all you have to give it now. They have decide to go back down into the canyon back down to the river bed to find shade and they serve burning thing. Because they think well will send a smoke signal. Now. You you're not loud to set fires in the desert because really dry and you can start a huge brush fire. So the problem is there back down in the deepest part of this canyon, with the least amount of visibility, but the most amount of shade and there trying to burn things. They realize that the brush and shrubbery that they're burning isn't putting off a lot of smoke. So throw in a sleeping bag and that puts off more smoke, but the wind or the not when the slight breeze comes through the canyon and takes the smoke more horizontal.
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any water: they also attempt to drink their own urine, but they have the idea that they need to filter it. they're using rabbies baseball cap yeah. They they p through a cap into a bottle and then try to drink it and it's just nasty and by the way, don't ever drink your own piss. It's not good for you. It's a concentrated version of all the toxins that your bodies trying to get rid of that. Final night there talking about if they're gonna make it or not, buzzards are actually ending next to them and waiting, that's quite a sight of a wild animal sitting. Next to you waiting for you to die or be too week to fight back. Can we say that their from Boston? Again, I mean they're not used to seeing this in their name used to being in the desert. They're not used to this struggle, and They actually have predators landing, nearby.
eyeing them, and I think, according to around he at least he thinks that they are preparing to attack them. Not always the case we did. The girls in panama loss. Girls in panama, and they were way more prepared? This trip has taken a turn for the worse that night. Dave is so sick, rafi s description is that he's on all fours jist vomiting and dry heaving, because he has nothing to say Oh and he's doing this for hours all night long and according to rafi David would vomit, but it would literally get caught in his throat and he said he would have to reach over and pull it out because it was just getting caught beds, not liquid anymore. It's just thick mucus
and bile. This is necessary because of what happens next Dave doesn't think helps coming they there, like. We bought a one day pass it's almost day for here no one's coming forward. and at certain times during this whole thing, they actually thought that the rangers were playing tricks and then they were hallucinating water bottles hallucinating. Those rocks with the at the entrance of the the trail just weird things, because they're so dehydrated and wrath even had strange dreams. Where is he said he dreamt that there were these other people building machines to help them get out, but that he and David did
I have the parts necessary to build what they needed to build to get out if you've ever had a fever dream near when you're super, sick and you're just you know, some people can take hallucinogens for this, but other people, if you don't do drugs. of a fever, dream or dehydration dream essential is but they're having and Dave who is eaten. These berries and rafi has to their through giving up their miserable their bleeding their dehydrated and vomiting. Isn't helping this dave courting to rafi is asking him to. Please kill him to end his life, so rafi pulls out a knife: they try to cut their wrists. there at their end, they can't take it anymore. Rafi says: will I'm the stronger or I have more? strength, so I'll try to cut my wrists and cut your wrist,
scraping this knife down there, their arms and their barely breaking the skin there so weak. They give up for awhile raphia trying to get dave to sit up because he thinks that he's went to choke on his vomit, but every time he gets dave to sit up, it makes him more dizzy and vomit more and he says he's too weak to set up a rocky is able to like kind of poem up and set him up, and they can sit back to back Rauf he's doing what he can according to him, but Dave has had an so before dawn august. Ninth, ninety ninety nine days it is now begging rocky to kill him rafi says that he resisted at first. He didn't like the idea, according to rafi, eventually dave
down on his back, and he turned to him and said you got in this and if he doesn't want to get the knife, rafi says no, he reaches up and squeezes rafi really hard And tell them to stop messing around. You know: they're not coming Raphia agrees. He says, I know they're not coming. So you gotta get the knife get next to me and put it through my chest: don't mess it up, he's using more colorful language so rafi got next to him and and Dave asks him again. He's like you need to end me and rafi pulls out the knife and he stabs dave in the chest. I think he. it's his long on the first stab. Does he feels air, but he doesn't see any blood and then he pulled it out.
Says: are you still alive and day says? Yes, please keep going and rocky stabbed him a second time and this time hit em in the heart he asks him. Are you still feeling pain and Dave says no, but he still responding so Dave's has pull them I thought rocky pulls the knife out. He sees blood, so he knows that he's stabbed him better than he did the first time because he is so weak and he can't really get the the knife through his shirt and into his chest, and then he smothers dave's face a little bit. obstruct his breathing to try to hurry this along and make it as painless as possible. Dave will end up dying, passing away
rocky sees the the buzzards circling and gives his his friend a cowboy burial, and what is that entail Well he's not going to be doing any digging, so why does he starts gathering rocks and placing rocks on his friend and I think the rocks once he gets done thereabout there's about seven feet of rocks. You know to cover his friends body, and then some of these rocks are fifty sixty pounds in wait. It's actually. No, I won't say it so it's ornate, but it's it's a very respectful thing to do. Is he doesn't want his body to be picked apart by birds and he could just left,
there. He didn't have to do any kind of burial. So I see this as a show of respect, bra fees in a bad way. He thinks he's going to die he's given up so he gets back under the rain under the rain flap of the tent, like, I think the two slight been just torn apart by the shrubbery and all their. So all they have left exist pieces of the tent and refuse laying under it hoping to get shade. So when he stabbed his friend This was sometime around six, a m right yeah and around ten a m arrange your wife, so the ranger had seen the car thought. It was strange because the car obviously been there a while. Now so the rangers came across their their camping
it from four days earlier? These guys hadn't checked in range or thought. Well, let's go look form, so he got Another ranger to go walked down there with them. So there's two guy walking around ones, pretty seas, and ranger in the other ones, pretty green. They come across the car, they sort of split up and the one just like I'm gonna go look over the cliff to see. If I can find where these guys are coming in The ranger that found rafi his name is low. Madison He said he showed up about ten a m, so they need to get rapid help, but before anything else happens what does rafi say to this ranger when he sees him what he says. I hope you brought water
The ranger gives him water tells him to drink it slowly. The ranger asks him where's your buddy and rocky points over at this pile of rocks and the ranger looks around says I wear and refuse like a is right. There I killed him, so he admits right for that. There's no mystery here. It's not like. He had an accident. No, I killed him yeah and refugees, again this water, but it's not staying down. No he's vomiting it back up because, when that dehydrated, your body can't absorb water very well, so it just rejects it. But at this point the ranger says: did you shoot em rafi says no. I stabbed him and he says you have knife rocky produced the knife and the ranger doesn't feel really scared or threatened. I mean it's an interesting kind of shocking
situation. They found themselves in. He says that rafi is slow to respond but coherent. So we'll ask em like, whereas the knife and rafi will pause and then get the knife here. What's your name rafi? He hurried cite the slow, but he is responding. Give and giving answers a second ranger shows up on a new messiah. What do these Yours do for rafi at this point, because I martinis rescuing he's dehydrated, more, they call it a rescue and airlift centrally a black hawk helicopter, that's equipped with medical equipment. They're waiting for the helicopter, which I'm sure if you're stranded anywhere and then someone
coming to rescue you at that point? You just want to get the hell out of there, but it takes a while for this helicopter to get out there and rafi says my grandmother could have flown the helicopter here faster Well, let me tell you I'm sure that at least one of these rangers got a little ticked off at that right just this idea that you're trying to do your best to help somebody They seem a little ungrateful. Woe and the other thing that this rangers feeling is how're. You so coherent that you still have a sense of humor But I mean I've been in a serious car wreck and I would still crack a joke. I've even been,
He hydrated and hospitalized, and still was making fun of people travel. I'm I'm like rafi. I have a quick with that, even in the even on my death battle, probably be talkin smacked people so anyway, so he didn't mean anything bad by what he said. He's just trying eases cracking a joke or grumpy. Because he's like get me out of here So they get an ivy item on the desert river bed there already high. Bring him, they get him in this helicopter and they airlift, them over to the local hospital? Now monsieur made the comment and he's one of the rangers. He felt very odd that He had responded so well to the migration with the ivy, and so he he was like. How did he recover so quickly? we had a- I guess they discharged from the hospital. After like an hour,
but he said he was saying this as he was being too, get away from the desert like he felt. It was weird that when he was leaving that rafi seemed to what you would say as normal? Well, that's an interesting comment for him to make when you're dehydrated you're not in a good way, But as soon as you start taking fluids, you bounce back very quickly and and you watch anime and you see we ve seen fighters completely deplete Her body have almost all of its water to make weight and then take ideas and bounced back now. It's not the best way to do it. It's not healthy! because you know, if the membrane around your brain doesn't have enough water around it, it's just it's not good for you, but it starts depleting and your brain can actually shrink yeah and it affects your cognitive ability and, if you're not fully hydrated in somebody
punches you in the head. You have no padding for your brain pomp around into but cognitive abilities being with it soon. As you take fluids, you start coming back pretty quick with hours, you're able to answer questions and whatever and being that rafi was not totally out of it, but obviously extremely dehydrated. If he's vomiting water back up, but just because he somewhat coherent, doesn't mean that he's not dehydrated, so the evidence they had, because at this point, rafi could again admitted that he killed David com. and so this is investigated and wood. They have, they have David's body which they remove. And they also have this journal, which they had both written in fact
it even written a note to his girlfriend and there they were writing good bye notes, I'm not gonna make it what they don't ride is were planning on killing each other, that's not in there. But good bye world is the other thing that the rangers notice is the the lines on their arm. The suicide attempt the cutting the scrapes on their arm are less deep, then say the scrapes on their friends from the brush, so there thinking well, how would you Are you not strong enough to cut your own wrist you're strong enough to stab him or strong enough to move rocks to build this burial for him well before we get to the trial. The report that the medical examiner produced conclude That David was moderately too severely dehydrated at the time that he had died, and it was also determine later on that, if he had been,
live when the rescuers got there, David would have recovered fully, What is this, I mean the The county, sheriffs by the name of click, said I dont know too many people who would do away with their best friend so, as you know, if you take their medical examiner report and comments from the de the county sheriff click. This is a murderer straight up. There's no doubt here well, if they knew help was coming, it would have held out sure also another thing they hold against him. Is they have this can of beans like? Why did you eat your canna beans? You know: there's water in there and sodium yeah and that's their answer is at least Rauf his answers there's a lot of salt in there, and I thought that would dehydrate me more. Thought. It was mostly syrup or gravy, not water, with a bunch of salt
so. He didn't want to eat it. I get it there eating berries because they know that the berries had. Or water content then means would, but he was wrong. Oh yeah there's a bad decision, but we ve all done that we ve all certain things about something, and then we were wrong while they assumed that rescue would come searching for them after it, a right because they had written down. They were plain to stay for the night and they would be gone the next day, but that's not how it works. The calving permits aren't exactly used to see who's overstayed their welcome or whose lost. Yet there are just tracking activity. And also if they were to go down into these areas in fine trash or anything like that. Then they would have
idea of who did it? Who is responsible? They sent a second helicopter to the scene when the investigators were there and that second helicopter decided to do a low pass over the crime scene. What what do you think that did well since the tent was scraps? I think a lot of stuff blew away so the entire crime scene, if you look at it that way was completely destroyed by the second helicopter. So all they have is what they voted, craft and video before that helicopter came and destroyed their crime scene. Now this knife that he used they, I find microscopic fibers from their clothing and the sleeping bag. The investigators theorize that rafi waited for dave to fall asleep and then stabbed him. While he was asleep through the sleeping bag,
and burned the sleeping bag. I can see where they got, that they burn the sleeping bag and I find fibers on the knife. Then hey that's a valid idea, but you might have fibers on that knife by just sleeping in a sleeping bag with that knife in your pocket or on your person, it doesn't mean that you stabbed through it. Did he ever talk about when they burned the sleeping bag? Did they attempt to cut the sleeping bag into pieces, to burn it they just said they burned. So it didn't really give too much detail, so they arrest rafi as soon as easy discharged from the hospital he's put in jail. The judge in the county sets bail at fifty thousand dollars, and this is the highest bail this judge has ever set in his career. Normally people can come up with fifty thousand dollars
ralph, his father, he gets a money order, wires. Down. There gets a cashiers check and shows up and bells his son out of jail with fifty grand. This is surprising to the judge and the people down there because they're like who, who has that kind of money, but they do rafi cody keenest. Charged with murder, rafi is represented by a couple of attorneys, scary, mitchell and china. Boyne Gary Mitchell come up with this idea to argue that rafi was suffering from involuntary intoxication because he was so dehydrated, but the joy rules against it, saying that he didn't ingest anything to cause the intoxication. There was a lack of congestion that caused it, but there's different arguments. You can make
here are the defences that you can use a new mexico alibi, entrapment self defense, duress, insanity or involuntary intoxication. These are the only options his defence had to choose from there are wanting to go with temporary insanity. But no one goes with that and it seems to never work duress. well, no one was holding a gun to his head self defense, no entrapment, no alibi. He admitted that he did it. So involuntary intoxication seems to be the best fit for this defence. But even that got shot down. Let me say this to the the deputy district attorney actually believe rafi story. Doesn't he anyone he says hears everything that happened. He doesn't I agree with it, because, according to him, the experts that came
man and explained what they were probably going through. It explained everything it made sense, but the problem that the defence had was that this is still murder, it doesn't matter that you think you're being merciful Doesn't anyone remember the guy who is putting people to death at vienna by their requests? Doktor cover yeah. He was, he was putting people to death because they were asking for it and he Still, I ended up at a whole lot of trouble for that. Why? Because there is no mercy killing allowance. Here I mean you can't do it. This is the quote. He gives you don't get to kill someone in the state of new mexico just because they asked you. you that's the law, so in other words, hey. We believe what you're saying we area, but you still broke the law exactly. The investigators and the sheriff's office there try
fine motive here, they're going back and end to refuse background. They found An ex girlfriend who they think might have dated dave also so there thinking while this was a jealousy fang love triangle. They bring up the fire whereas on the knife stabbing through the sleeping bag, there really trying to this whole thing together, but when they go to interview rabbies ex girlfriend, she pretty much refuses and the whole homicide investigation dies yak here, since one actually live with both rocky cod hake in an david, flynn, and she said I never David David and she said that after she in Raphia broken up that they remained great friends. They all hung out together. It was like this, sir. They
just all bodies, and so when they were trying to figure out there I mean they. They went in talk to everybody they could tucked coworkers family members, you name it and no one that they found could say anything that would lead them to believe that rafi could do this and they kept trying, though they actually went to Boston, found a ninety. Ninety six murder of a woman named katrina, homer who was Nineteen year old, swedish woman, she was found in a dumpster her torso was severed and limbs removed and there like. Oh what if this was rafi, you, sir building a narrative against somebody, yet the media involved, you can say whatever you want, but nobody's believing this narrative and the prosecution definitely drops the narrative and just says no
he admits he killed the sky and we're just gonna. Go with that. Most of you know, I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers- incredible selection of audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrities, renowned experts and, as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audiobooks, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership, get one title a month to keep, and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book anti social about online extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the america conversation, let audible hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible
calm, slash. Gaeta BP were text guida, BP, two five hundred five hundred; that's audible, dot com, slash cheetah, BP or text guida BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, audible doc, slash, judah beauty. He admits he killed this guy and we're just gonna go with that. It is not difficult because again he broke the law. Now he doesn't have to prove mode of. He does not prove anything. The guide me and so the for the prosecutor. This isn't about his rafi, a good guy did he mean harm? Did he not me harm? This is just he broke. The law so will prosecute him and that leaves rallies attorneys any kind of a tough place, but I would say they did the best they could, which was our. I tell you what will plead second degree: murder right yeah. He pleaded no contest to second degree murder and that's really all they could do again. He broke the law
well for those in the public we want to know, did he mean it till he did he not mean it? Was he really trying to do something at the behest of his friend? What were the motives here? How did it go down why were we know all this because there was a journal rafi made it out. He told us the story. of the evidence supports his story also in the trial. A lot was made of dehydration and the effects it has on your body and your mind. the experts all seem to agree that your cognitive ability is affected given dehydrated they were? It was believable that they would be suffering from a way. You'd want to come, delusion all mood swings be not being coherent delusions, but again the the prosecutor didn't seem to doubt rafi story. It is just about how the law is going to be
fighting this case during his sentencing, rafi testified about actions, leading up to David's fatal stabbing. This is what he said. What I thought I was doing, was keeping my friend from going through twelve to twenty four hours of hell before he died and the prosecutor ass. It was mental illness, that made you kill him, it was mercy and rallies. Boss was, The way I see it yeah, so all we're left with was he broke the law according to the law, new mexico, he committed murder, but the judge who has the power to make something happened in iraqis favour. Does that I think when he said as for giving you fifteen years, but I'm suspending thirteen of those, so he egotism twenty four months or two years, but if he screws up, he gets the full fifteen once he's out. Yet he has five years
probation, so it's two years in prison, five years of probation once he's out now, a lot of people think this man just got away with murder. I think he got away with killing somebody, but if you think murders malicious, then I guess, what's the proof, or if he wasn't planning this, because he wasn't even going to go on this road trip, he wasn't planning to do it and rattlesnake canyon, because That was a last minute decision. After they talk to a gas station, attend and then they end up being lost in a desert. They both are claiming in admitting in a journal that there are not doing too well and they're saying there goodbyes and if you think that you could spend some time in the desert and not get lost Well good for you, I'm glad you're, an outdoor z person, but if this is whole show called, I shouldn't be alive where every
their episode is about a family or a person that goes five feet off a trail and almost meets their demise. I mean every tree looks the same right now. Think allow. This stems from the fact that the people who live in that area, understand how the desert works. They understand what they need to do to survive. They pay attention when there come down a path. They know the cairns to look for, but they just can't imagine that there are these city guys coming from boston who don't have any idea how to deal with the desert and weren't prepared to stay beyond a night? They disk don't get beyond that because in their minds, oh well, here's what you do and they didn't do that. So there must be something suspicious about it raf. He must have planned this, and how could he do that to his friend that the
we think that they're saying among well there also criticising them for being whiskeys and I've modified the language there. But this is to me unbelievable, because it shows once again that there are people who cannot put themselves in another person's shoes because they just can't get there. They they cannot imagine how someone wouldn't know how to survive in the desert. When I can tell you right now, I would probably get lost out there. I could see that happening, a year after rafi sense. A man, hiker name, brine tiny was from philadelphia. He was out there walking in rattlesnake canyon, and he noticed an envelope lying on the canyon floor with a letter from a woman named Emily showman. She explained such
is lost and rattlesnake canyon and she needs help. Eventually, the sky will go and call for help The ranger team, the same ranger team that found rocky and dave will go out and search. Rattlesnake canyon. And after many hours, they'll call off the search and call on an airplane. They will find Emily after three p m. She was about a mile west of the exit trail waving a shirt. I mean This is another person that got lost in the same exact location. So it's not level that they were lost, their errand said it's unbelievable, that these people don't empathize with these men,
don't put themselves in their shoes. I don't find it unbelievable at all I can read any comments out on the internet and everyone just blames everybody for all their problems and no one has any empathy out there. It's pretty disgusting. So I'm not surprised to hear this counter narrative about these. and in what rafi did one of the things that really struck me about. It, too, was when I heard the interviews with some of the people from that town, and I'm not saying they were all like that. It's like anything else, you have is media going out for interviews and they're, showing you certain ones. Well, the people I heard from it really struck me it. It was almost like they're on a higher level they're better than these guys were. Oh, I wouldn't have done that that wouldn't happen to me. How callous is that there's no empathy here, at least the judge had empathy and at least eve.
the attorneys who were just doing their job. They seem to have some empathy, but course they're always those who are willing to blame the victim at David's funeral, his family begin to give their. Memories of David. They ask the congregation and other family members to pray for rafi and this actually causes a stir because its them saying we believe him it's themselves we don't think what he did was malicious. I won't say that all of em support rafi, but that's a pretty bold statement and a pretty bold stand take at the funeral of your own dead son yeah. Let it be known that they felt that he didn't do it maliciously, because they understood that David and rafi were best friends and
meant something to them and is something that they knew. I mean that's why they believed him he loved his friend rafi, isn't is to see that that counts right now. So early. people in this town were upset what the sons were upset where the outcome, but the my family with a dog and the race wasn't upset so who's the justice for. Did it affect you personally? No I don't understand why the townspeople in this place were upset with the verdict when there are not the ones. It was two guys from the north East well happened in their backyard. That's why they're upset and they wouldn't have done it that way. There.
But it's not everybody. I dont think everybody in the towns of said again. It's the the media recorded interviews with people, that's how it came across but, as we know, the the sample size is small. So I would like to hear you take on this. I don't think a mercy killing should be, so universally accepted that anyone says hey, kill me and then you can just do it and get away with it, because it's not that simple. But what should the verdict be for mercy killing? How should we approach a case like this? I think the judge did What he could he took all the mitigating circumstances and gave his ends and even the prosecutor, who said that he Looking for five day, ears said that he was satisfied with two when it was all said and done.
There was no mitigating circumstances here that wiped out any time in prison. Anyway, That's where I guess. Perhaps some judge might have gone that way. If they could do it, I don't know why they couldn't his friend was begging him, please tell me, I don't know, I think everyone should at least take a little time and think about that. Are you really going to deny your friend someone who's your best friend that request just because you're worried about, I might go to prison a mere you really thinking about prison when you're dehydrated, you think buzzards are going to eat you at any minute. Now. I dont think that the law. The land is going to sway me and my decisions when I'm in that situation.
In the end, this is a man who, at the behest of his friend, did something that put himself at great risk if he has rescued, which of course, he didn't believe he was, but if he gets rescued. He's facing a murder charge here and how is he going to argue against that? We saw it didn't work. The prosecutor had a quote thy think gum. really gives his mind set on this case, where there is life, there's hope We want to live in a society where people can kill other people just because they imagine there in a desperate situation. I think the answer is obviously no there's a book out. There called journal of the dead it's by jason, kirsten
Bonnie Lee basically came to hollywood with a dream. She wanted to be someone famous he married actor. Robert blake. She thought her dream come true until it all went wrong on may fourth, two thousand and one at nine thirty pm Bonnie was found in a car bleeding severely. She had been shot in the head. Oh my god, I don't know within the hour she was gone, night Bonnie went from victim to villain the press caldeira, her a liar, a scam as he was in the pornography business, she was in the prostitution business. She had criminal convictions all around the country in various states by who was bonnie mailing and who wanted her dead, listened to the execution of Bonnie lee bailey on amazon, music, apple, podcasts, spotify or you can listen early and ad free by joining wonder, replaced in the wondering app.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.