Hey everybody welcome back. This is part two of the Michael petersen case, the death of catholic petersen. If you have listen to part one eyed very much encouraged. go back and listen to the first episode. Erin and I cover the events there, happened that night a lot of the evidence we

don't go all the way through the trial, but we get pretty deep into it with you evidence we go over a lot of the blood evidence de followed on the stairs as opposed to wound evidence involving a weapon of some sort. We also bring up what could be aged scene with wine glasses and an unused condom. We all present summer. The trial and process. you tactics on part two or going to finish out the trial, the sentencing and get into our theories on what actually happened or how we think this went down. I don't get a lot of time to sit down and read a book boys on the go, But I love reading, so the solution is audible, audible,

offers, an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Best sellers new releases celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers catch crime, and there too, as an audible member, you can choose one title a month, leading the latest best sellers and new releases. One of my favorites is connections, uncovering the real causes of depression and unexpected solutions. Only Bon audible, let audible help you discover new ways to laugh and be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash gdp or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, audible, calm, slash, gaeta BP, dead mom to get word from our sponsor I'm scenes, we ve seen them all right, washed up on the shore, sticking out a shallow graves buried under the house and stuck in the bottom of a lake, but sometimes

there's a little more off the beaten path that makes you sit, when your couch and shouted your tv wait, they found the anywhere, but that's what you're looking for we got. You ready stream some crime stories. Hulu it's a crime not to watch any time. You have a case like this, the chaz to determine what is allowed in the court and what is it and one of them things they want to bring into the court is another death that happened in connection to Michael petersen in that back, when lived in germany with his first wife, Patricia she had a friend named elizabeth ratcliff and Elizabeth rattling died one night after being dropped off at home by my oh petersen, with her two daughters. And some time that night she died There is some suggestion that Michael Petersen may

been involved in that death. What happen? Well, the nanny discovers the body of Elizabeth Ratcliff at the bottom of the stairs, so we have to women who have untimely death at the bottom of staircases and both of em. Suffered, traumatic, head injuries. The coincidence of this is pretty pretty gnarly for a jury. To look at now when they discover that elizabeth rattling had way in germany. She was actually buried in the states. The prosecution has her body exude shipped back to north carolina, for them forensic pathologists. To do an autopsy defence says: why don't you just do the autopsy in texas or wherever she was buried, with a non biased, forensic pathologist

where there wouldn't be a question yeah, because we already have the path It is here and durham saying this was homicide. So, let's The second opinion, at least on this other woman's body from seventeen plus years ago,. Yet there was some suggestion that she may have died from a stroke or cerebral hemorrhage or something to that effect yeah. But then they couldn't find evidence of that. Well, at the time of her death, they did find evidence of the but seventeen years later, six feet under you're. Not you dont have is clear of a pitcher as what you do at a fresh crime scene the same. Pathologist does an autopsy and in this autopsy report she puts it. Death by like homicidal attack, homicidal blows. Yeah, that's really prejudice

shaw, you say: death by blunt force trauma, that's very medical death by homicidal attack, homicidal blows, let's painting a picture yeah, you can check mark the box, it says death by homicide and you can say blunt force trauma, but this whole Autopsy report is so inflammatory that one he never charged with this crime. He was never. It was never even thought suspected at the time that this was a murder. they were pretty sure at least the authorities on site. This was an accident you with had was there was a witness who saw Michael Petersen running from the ral of home tat night. But aside from that, really Michael Peter sin did a lot of talking to the already there and was giving them information Some say that's more, an indicative of his guilt because he was

steering the investigation. It's very possible. There was blood up the stairway. There was what I would consider some suspicious things at that crime scene and Elizabeth. had a quarter. in dollar trust that she was going to give to her child and she allowed Michael petersen to have control of that trust. So it speculated that eight. He had all his money get rid of her get her out of the picture. He will end up taking her children on his own. So it's one of those things where it's like. You can play that you can spend that either way of. Why would this guy push this person down the stairs and then take on the children. If his greedy for money? That doesn't make a lot of sense because the money is going to the children so well, but he's in charge of the trust and also there were things that allow with rattle of owned. That disappeared.

so there's some suggestion that maybe he made off with some of her viable possessions as well. Now, All I can say is to be fair. You can read into that, and you can use it determine whether you think he's a criminal or not as real killer figure by winning. Comes down to a court of law if he hasn't been charged at all in a case and he wasn't named a suspect in that case. Even then why they bringing it into this case. Now I get why prosecution, the commission to happen. But why would the judge allow that you can't speak for the judge, but I guess just asking a question that in to be asked yeah. It's it's one of those things where we have rule of law and a court of law for a reason

he essentially is being accused and found guilty of murder without a trial, a jury as evidence for a crime that he's now accused of it's not exactly fair, I dont know how I feel about the rattling situation. I dont know if he murdered her nod or if that was a terrible accident, but regardless How I feel about it. I do have a problem that being used against him in this situation, if europe, said about the rattling situation and how it went down. You'll just have to blame the german authorities because they're the ones you didn't do anything with information. They had the american authorities whether to right, but no one did anything melt. They they determined it an accident. They did a somewhat interesting.

investigation. How will I dont over was thorough or not, but they did enough where they felt satisfied. It looks bad, but I think that's hindsight is twenty twenty. You know when you compare the cases of these two women that died, who both new Michael Petersen. It looks bad but again This is highly prejudicial when you bring it into a case like this, when they didn't prove it again, I agree, it looks bad and it certainly looks like he could have killed her and gotten a lot of money out of it, but they didn't go that route. So to me this is something that I don't. I don't understand why the judge allowed this into the case. Unless the judge was, little prejudicial against Michael Petersen, there's a lot of problems with the things that the prosecutions doing, and way at the trials going, which just doesn't look good for Michael, but it doesn't look

for our court system either right for justice. If see one things that can happen is so you get the win. You get a conviction, then some time later, someone can bring up unfair trial and this is how they lose cases is by bringing in stuff that shit not be in there and again. This has nothing to do with whether he actually killed elizabeth rattling or not. This has to do with facts. Facts are he was never charged arrested or convicted, for the murder of elizabeth rattling and yet there presenting it nation in court. That is highly prejudicial and will like, cause. Jury, to look at her, and think? Oh he's done this before there is a pattern establish now. There are so many similarities between these two incidents that it's gotta be foul play. Its absolutely hum.

Side and we even will put it in the autopsy report Both of these women died at night. They both died from had wounds. They both heads help. Lacerations I mean go on and I The similarities are there absolutely lee, but this is again prejudice. people need understand. Prejudicial means that this is the kind of thing that can cost you this winning corps the defence can later argue. This was not a fair trial. How is that fair and so when we go over this- and we say what kind of trial was this, where they do have good It's against them then their needlessly bringing in prejudicial. he's like having this escort, He never even met describe what kind of sex they were going to have, and then bring in this case from germany for men, years earlier where a woman died and their painting the picture of o.

He killed her in the same way that Kathleen died. I feel like their over extending because of prejudice because of bigotry or because they feel like they dont have a solid case, so they have to throw everything. wall, seaward sticks. I dont know that they don't have a solid case. I wondered, if goes back to harden and the columns written against him, because how Is he not come in as the attorney and look across Michael petersen and think, oh man, I'm gonna have a field with you in court and that's the thing is when I say they felt like their case was shaky. I dont think they had a shaky kay. I don't think they needed to do all this extra stuff. I think they needed to keep short simple into the point and that's when we get to the blow poke right, because their homeland, higher theory hinges on him. Beating

her over the head with this, Oh rod, this metal blow poke and during the trial thing: it's todd his son. Downstairs and my garage or the basement and finds the blue yeah, she's, leaning up against the wall or something, and they say that all these detectives went through the house and couldn't find it, and yet it was right there in plain sight, supposedly yeah They make a big deal out this because they say oh well, it was gifted it was in this room upstairs, and so they go through the staff, but then the defence actually produces photographs from events inside the house from the prior year so showing that it no longer and the spot it was always at so it was moved at some point, but it was moved well before caffeine staff.

and it's got cobwebs all over it, dirt grime all over it in what it doesn't have is blood on it and they test it. You have because in ought to be honest, you could use a weapon and kill somebody, and then you could drive into the ground make it real dirty, clean it off drive into the ground and puts him I have on it, but pretty much if put some blood on something they will find it yeah they're gonna find the blood and I you know I I will agree that you can clean off a weapon. You can age it, but the cobwebs and everything it's like that thing been sitting there for awhile it wasn't. It wasn't moved and cleaned off and then laid there whatever and so there are a whole theory is based on this as the murder weapon and its proven.

The last day of trial, hey, we found it here. It is by the way it's not the murder weapon and here's where I have a problem, because I think he did this gets say that, but their theories wrong and does a prosecutor have to get their theory right? I mean this is. The problem is ok, you can pay how there you can put her there. You can do this. This whole rigmarole, but method of death. Now we don't have a murder weapon. I thought that was kind of important. Well, I don't know how for it is. I think it's important for those of us who want to figure this out, but I dont It is important when he could have you.

some other hard web weapon. As so I mean what could it be right? We talked about this you and I talked at length about what it could possibly be, now I put a lot at stake into something coming from outside the home, because there is evidence she came into the home, the others already injured, yeah, there's blood droplets outside the home. So therefore, you think she was attacked and then went to the house and she may have pushed the door closed. She has some microscopic our feathers one found earlier on bit. A couple more were found later on when it was retested mine. Needles, pine needles, there's a wood us a whatsoever. I mean I'm wondering if he attacked her with some kind of a branch I don't know, but This is something that we just don't know how it went down where we can look at evidence and say she was beaten to death. Okay, well, beaten with what

What what did you say when we talked about this? I would say that I dont believe she fell down the stairs at all. I dont have any income. How that plays out as an accidental fall down the stairs, so I I'll say that she was attacked at the base. Stairs or in the hallway she was attacked. I won't then say that she was hit with it with a branch or metal bar anything The reason why we have a lot of trouble with this beating is she didn't have any school fractures, he had lacerations, meaning her skin was torn, but her school wasn't: cracked hitting somebody over the head with a metal object leaves bruising chips. The school there's always something that is got. You know any item utensil max baseball, bat metal object whatever be going.

To do more than just tear the skin and that's why we? hard time with the beating death but branch them that might may not be heavy enough or hard enough to leave a score fracture. So I look at this and it hears you know here. Some problems I have is According to the defence, there's no cast off so on thing, ok, there's no cast off patterns. Then maybe he didn't beat her with a rod or a blow poker something also there's no spatter on his shirt. So did he chain shirts, or did he not be her? something that's shooting blood up onto a shirt, but it is showing on the wall. And then you have the bloody footprint on the back. I cover leg and then you have him taking his shoes, often leaving them beside the body so

My only idea here is that he stopped on her to death, and I really haven't seen that theory out there and it I didn't, have it before you know ten years ago, We first watch the documentary. Whenever was, I came up with this just looking at the evidence of the wounds, the blood, the lack of blood on his shirt, but there being spent around the inside of his shorts, and we don't really get into that. But there is blood spatter. That way, up on the inside of his shorts. So I'm thinking he's stopping her to death Actually, if its glancing blows with his shoe, it's not gonna cause a school for fracture, an issue, chooser kind of soft, that's going to cause the spatter in a very enclosed area. And it's gonna cost spouter on his shorts, but maybe not all the way up on his shirt. Yet there was

spatter up inside of his shorts, but it one droplet just like the droplets- and up the wall or on the ceiling. It's one drop so in the shorts he did say he embraced her it's possible, that one drop of blood fell off of her and into a shorts. I have to give them that it's not exact please spatter it's one drop, but still that doesn't explain all of the wounds in blood and gore that was happening. There are so many in my opinion, it shouldn't have been there. In the first place, there were witnesses that saw him working at it, trying to clean it off. So, if he's just got his bare feet, and this is the question I had when you are too, that I didn't put it together until more recently. But what if he took off shoes and socks because he didn't want there to be alive.

Blood all over issues and socks body and rinse off his legs near you could played either way. I just assume He stopped her with his shoes on and then took him off because he didn't want to drive around how will eventually there'll be a lot more blood after the wounds are being created and then would, if that's, why she as a bloody shoe print on her yeah, because he was knocking her down yeah and then once he saw that he was like. I better take my shoes and socks off because I'm leaving evidence here that I'm attacking her take a moment get a word from our new sponsor priceline. Do you have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer getaways, but never They go anywhere well

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do that kind of damage they weren't able to show that the fireplace poker was used because it didn't test positive for any blood or anything like that. There is a tip of the fire poker. That's missing but let us say that was on therein and discarded well there, which should there should- still be evidence on the fireplace poker, the other rod, self right Hafela there should be some evidence, tat mean if there is or should be, spotless clean, because this blankly yeah I mean there's so much blood all over the place. There's no way the boy Gonna stay on the under the poker and why, may have a little bit of a disagreement, but I dont look at that metal poker and ends the wounds on her head and think that could cause that, because of the little hook has it to me the metal is very smooth: it's not going to tear the skin, it can tear the skin. If you just hit somebody with it, you can adjust the impact, but then again, we would expect skull fracturing at that point.

we'll find out later. That police officers was actually did find the blow poke and either picked it up and set it down or just left it. Where was, but they actually made ready. And to it and their police report the night of so they knew the blow poke was there they knew it existed. They knew it wasn't a weapon because it wasn't taken into evidence. Yet they never hold the prosecution about this one hand is not talking to the other, yet they go with this whole murder theory using the blow poke, which, just absolutely crazy to me that that got as far as it did at this point they dont have emerged weapon. They might as well said. He used a freddy krueger glove to attacker with then discarded it because they don't have any substance here,

the defences shown that there is possible contamination of the crime scene because it wasn't secured, there's blood droplets around even outside the house really have a problem with the way the prosecution has painted. The pitcher with brad the the male escort There is so many issues with their under handedness that I just they lost me there's a lot of unlikely characters in this film, but it sucks when the people that you want to L a murderer to the wall are some of the most unlikely bowl I think amy harden is now a judge, a kind of bothers me if he has those kind of opinions about the gay cat. Woody and he's going to use that as leverage to find somebody guilty on

doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. How he's ruling in his court today, especially that comes to a crime against the against that community Michael peterson's, story. Murder trial concludes in two thousand three: what's the verdict he's found guilty? to the surprise of the defence and his family and his children, who very much support him and he sentenced most of his chair, and support him. His two sons, clayton and tied with rattling children Margaret and Martha Ratcliff, both supported him, but Caitlin Atwater, who was his wife, leans daughter. She, didn't support him by the time the trial. I don't think malfunction, support him initially, but then.

she ended up. Switching sizes are were once it came, that he was based. joel had this secret life. She fell. like she didn't know him. She felt like she couldn't trust anything out of his mouth and the autopsy. Can, I think, that's true of a number of people who initially supported him. We just said he was found guilty, but really it came to the family members to people that were related by marriage or by blood to him. The people who ended up witching. Sides did so after they learned about the evidence not just the bisexuality, but it had a lot to do with the actual evidence that was against the crime scene in all all of the blood evidence. And just the bloody footprint objects are and how Yeah it was too suspicious for them, but there are some people that said that

you support your family member, no matter what this the people who are related to Michael petersen, and Michael Petersen, sister, who was one of those who switch sides who ended at billina, her brother did murder his wife she's. That she had family members who told her no around here, we support our family members, no matter what we stick by each other to get his defence You know he needed money and then thence constantly said that he had lots of money, but we can actually proved that they're wrong, because when it came time to pay for its defence since talking by hundreds of thousands of dollars and the only you pay for it was they had to scrape money from everyone? They wood and one of the people there to get money from was I dad who

was not doing well. In fact, I think he had dementia He couldn't make its own decisions like his estate, being handled by his children. Basically, so he couldn't make that kind of this asian, so Michael was having to call his sister and his brother and say hey. I need this money, from dad. Can you get it? He actually dig it a partial pay out from catholic life insurance policy and that went to his defence. Also right. But so people were having to try and pull together money for him. The law is he got we're not cheap? Now, not a real one I found interesting, though, was his sister said that I and many people have said this, but there were times where they just felt like Michael and Kathleen were just a perfect couple and one thing the end, his sick, her said was that Michael wicked attitude and he would say,

it's been kind mean to kathleen and sheep. Get him and she say You just shut up, you know, so she just give it right back to him and she and they would just bust up laughing So she was, I guess you could say a good counterpart. She stood still against him, no matter what happened, and yet they are easy going really and they said that they didn't fight for long stretches of time. If they got into it, it was short lived. I think the prosecutions. attempts to show that they had a bad marriage, are the only evidences he was seeking companionship outside of the marriage, but as far as their actual relationship seems pretty good yeah, I think I do believe that the the financial stuff was a burden. I That was a strain on them, but as a couple, if he, if you too money out of the equation and

everything else. I think they got along great from all accounts. This is from everyone. Every one was saying: even caitlin early on was saying. There are great couple so this character assassination that went on during the trial, which is all I can there was this kind of comes back to haunt them, because we talked about how Of you let stuff into a trial, that's a judge's discretion, but it might back to buy you later when people say that was unfair trial boy howdy. Does it I have to say that I remember watching the Aphrodite jones special on this and I remember the only thing I remember where her exact words were, I couldn't believe out. sitting there across from Michael. He was telling me that he did not move his wife, but I had the blood evidence there in front of me

and I knew the truth, I could see the evil in his eyes. And again I just told you that I think this guy probably stamped her to death, but when it comes to the blood evan- that Mr Dwayne had come up with and over so well. Did it well two thousand and eleven the whole country learned that dwayne deeper was not who he said. He was it he said. He was a blood's batter, analysed and had All these cases like hundreds of cases, but it turns out this was his third case something a ridiculous and they couldn't find where he was actually mentored by the guy that he claimed mentor by they found that the only background that he had in blood spatter analysis training? Was he attend it a seminar in they could even prove that he was there the whole time he may have shown up gotten a snack and laughed so I think, back to

Michael Petersen, lying about metal was he didn't when in the military, but for this guy dwayne to literally be on the stand. Giving testimony of war the sky, is a murderer. Why the blood spatter shows on it, hacked and he was even brought on. Multiple tv shows forensic files and what not as a blood expert- and this guy was line through his teeth and most of his analysis has been de debunked well You know what we can say is that he's lied and that he are you like everything he lied about some of the cases he handled he lie. About what his background was and so, when that happens now you can't trust anything. He's done everything he's ever touched his tainted and they had to go back and roll back. These

fiction of these cases that he was a part of so that is damaging yak. Again this doesn't negate some. Really damning evidence against Michael Petersen, but what it shows is he didn't have a fair trial and that anyone include in the stuff from germany and the questions about what They went with this biased swell, bisexual lifestyle and then the leaking of information. before the trial even starts. All this stuff that was just over extending over the top, all they have to do is just literate, save dwayne isn't who he says he is, and his entire Our analysis is now in question. In the same judge that presided over the the case ten plus years ago, grants. I'm a retrial, Michael Petersen, gets to walk out of prison pending the reach,

yeah, and we watched the noose around how long a me? Because we cover this back in two thousand twelve. We didn't hear anything for a long time and then All of a sudden. You ve asked for it five years. There's a retrial but suppose they going to happen and then it doesn't hurt. then. Why? Because Michael petersen doesn't work, to go to trial. If you see the state he's in a decade in prison. He can barely walk up. The stairs he's in rough shape, he's not going to make it just put it there. way and he's already gone to. The system has already seen a prosecution and a state. Pour some really shady stuff against him he doesn't have. Faith in the system now again, if You think he's innocent. That's great. He absolutely doesn't have any faith in system if you think he did it well, he still doesn't have faith in the system because

All the blood evidence used against him was in question again two thousand and two thousand eleven dwayne divers lies come to light, part of all out is well this whole peter and trials. Now I mean it's all in question right, so emotional file by peterson's lawyer, David rudolph in two thousand ten is in august by two thousand and eleven. This is december. Sixteen two thousand eleven Michael petersen walks he's on three hundred thousand dollars bail. He He is under house arrest, but he's he's not in prison anymore, if he's wearing an angle, bracelet and he's on house arrest, russia. So they're waiting to see what are they they do here. Are they going to have a new trial like we're talking about november fourteen two thousand six Michael petersen requests that this second try be dismissed. He doesn't want a new trial, but a new trial is scheduled

for me a two thousand seventeen the commission and the judge you're like now. well we're gonna go ahead with this. Obviously, Michael Peterson's lawyer has reached out on february seventh, The news reports that there is some sort of resolution that was Oh she aided by rudolf and the district attorney and they find out later that month on the twenty. Fourth, that petersen is entering and alfred plea, he's he's ok with not going for their end? putting in a plea of guilt under duress. Yan ends is heavily covered on other cases like the west memphis three, but the offer plea is sort of trying to satisfy everyone. It says well if you were in prison, we'll give time served in and many times you can get out right then, and there and then

for the other side who believes that he's guilty. They know he has now admitted guilt under duress, but he still he still putting in a guilty plea and the age will say: do you real new? Are you aware that when you say this you're entering a plea of guilty and ass to say? Yes, you know in catholic sisters: are there and you know for them? This is the man killed her sister and they get to speak to Michael pearson, because he's this is that the common vision of everything they sorted through all the issues. This is the end, Michael petersen case, as it were, because he's now pleading guilty alford plea, I feel their passions. I feel their hatred for this man guess. I always just think you would want to just really hammer home.

Might, how guilty they are, how much they destroyed your life just kind of lash out of and talk about how he I them during the trial, the first trial, and I I man there. So many other things you could have said here, but what they do now that you know like one of her sisters, says Kathleen gave you the best years of her life. She was other of your children. I mean I do get why their upset with them. He did this is a guy. That is very, very, I would say, he's lot of animosity towards anyone who thinks he's guilty and that's very plain. If you watch the staircase documentary series that he talks a lot crap on these people, which is bad because eastward he's supposedly an innocent man fighting for his freedom and yet is cabin nasty person, well his jaded

jaded could be, or he could just be a mean guy. I it to me the Darkness is shining through that to me you know, because not taking a high road anywhere again b was a while? He went to prison for that long, a time and but I would say, There's a shoe proud, the back of Kathleen she has done image net cartilage his bruises to her face in her arms from afar, going backwards, so It is. The guy was some trouble small business owners protect what you ve felt with more than thirty cost Michael insurance coverage options, including commercial, otto, general liability and business owners policies plus get personalized disco. for business experience prior insurance and more get it in his little as six minutes at progressive commercial dot com progressive, casualty insurance, company and affiliates discounts uncovered selections not available in all states are situations

this release of the documentary, they add additional episodes towards the end about this retrial, and about some of the evidence, especially the blow poke being found by the police and not telling prosecution about it or bringing it up. During the trial. Like so many issues there, but They even asked the judge his opinion and here essentially says either I don't think they had. Beyond reasonable doubt in the first trial he actually says that he thinks the jury got it wrong now, if a jury does say guilty, I judge can overrule that again. You can't come in and say now now, if, if a jury says not guilty adjudge, they can't do anything but There are so many checks and balances here in favour of the accused and that

bothered me a little bit because I thought, if the judge actually did think that they hadn't proved the case, and there was not evidence beyond reasonable doubt. He should have came in and said: no. This is a bad verdict, that's a check and balance of the court system and the judge even says he had questions. He had problems with the euro no trial, he has. Finally, because I see it is, I think they proved that he's the murderer, but I have problems with the way they handled the trial. I have a problem with the way they allowed that evidence from germany in an and I certainly think he's a very good suspect in the death of elizabeth rattling, but I don't see how they let that into the court. That's highly prejudicial. So in the end, I feel like me we think sort of worked out. I mean he had some time in prison and then he still,

and enter a guilty plea, but he walked. That's just. In the way I look at it is they screwed up a lot of things here. They ve, they sort of made their own bed here. I think we need have a higher expectation for our prosecutors, and I have seen great prosecutors. I experienced a great prosecutor and my jury duty, and there were things that were like that's two prejudicial and prosecute and was even like air. We can't go there and they checked themselves thinking way There was some conversation between two guys that doesn't even really relate to this murder and your I cannot allow it in because it might be prejudicial. Yet there are going to

ring in brad and then talk about their intimate sex life and where he offers people that somehow admissible really come on, and this is my problem with this case and almost out of spite I'm glad he walked because of the under handedness of the state, and I wonder if that d ages couldn't help himself, because he was prosecuting a man will clearly didn't like and so this is his way of you know. Really putting through the ringer and if they would have used. Another prosecutor change a venue, whatever probably wouldn't have these problems. I still think they could have gotten a conviction with the evidence alone as long as they didn't use dwayne, but yeah there's a problem there and it came back and bit him in the face. So I don't really have much of

an emotional reaction to this man walking around again, because I sort of thank you created this. This is your problem. if you would have done it the right way, the first time we wouldn't be talking about now, I believe, murdered his wife, but what did they do wrong? Well, law enforcement didn't lock down the scene properly. I mean, if you look at the timeline It takes them what almost an hour it seems like, or something like that for them to start locking the scene down Does he bring in highly prejudicial Information that doesn't it's not necessary and stick to the facts, show what happened here. The fact that they don't walked on the crime scene brings into question Why are these blood droplets fell? around the house is clean up, or is this just cross contamination you off how those two photographs of the defence loves the show of the two major droplets and the staircase that are not me.

If you're in the second photo and they're like well. Why did that happen? Who wiped this down? And why are you wiping down a crime scene? So it brings a lot of things into question and then you have dwayne, who I don't even know where they found that guy, but there you have it. Ah I'm I just don't know how to put this. Without bashing prosecutors, because there are good prosecutors out there that I think could have tried this case clean, free, unclear and guy conviction. Without doing all they did and the fact that the state didn't see a conflict of interests see all these issues. really sucks the first time we covered this case. We spent a little bit of time on it. Creature, known as the barred owl? Yes, we can talk about this without talking about the owl theory and in fact we even joke that we'd call this episode, the owl did it or who did it

now the owl theory is compelling because they did find microscopic, owl feathers. There is evidence of outside matter girls coming in like pinwheels award chip and she had club. Server own hair in both of her hands? and generally people can end up poland their hair out when the run immense stress, like murder, stress is what I would call it, because they ve gone through something, we very traumatic like an attack. So if you were to ask me what percentage I would give to murder what percentage I would give to down the stairs and what percentage I would give to an owl attack? I would literally give lake seventy five Eighty five percent to murder zero percent to a fall down the stairs ears and then the remainder to an owl, because the owl

back, makes more sense. The wounds, she has just the the flush being ripped and no school fractures. Her hand clumps of hair and our own hands as issues fighting off an owl? That's on her head and then you look at the last raisins and you look at the owl talons. How matters up and then you go read about owl attacks that happen all across europe and america. There vicious animals and I can totally one hundred percent disregard the owl theory. My problem is really the time. line of the events of the night is she was attacked by an owl one? How does he not know about this to not enough time passed between

in his smoke and drink outside and then finding her body. So it kind of throws the owl theory in question because of the time line, but I absolutely would buy that somebody could be attacked by an owl and bleed to death. That doesn't seem totally crazy to me, more just looking at the autopsy looking at owl attacks that have happened and if you, Google, AL attack and images look the human attacks. Look at dog attacks vicious he ever. Further bruising and the damage to cartilage. I I don't know I could maybe see it, but again, it's too meal look like defensive wounds like she was trying to protect yourself from a beating and the bruising absolute It does not go along with an owl attack, but on her arms it does appear to be puncture wounds. appear, I'm not saying they are

I'm not trying to make the argument for the owl. You just have to talk about this because it too major factor in this case as soon as somebody, here's how come on you know, gdp f, o I think your point when we talk before, though, was it's not even really. bout, the owl, it's about how this case is death of catholic petersen. It's not a fall down. There's no! So you'd much rather spend ten minutes document an owl, then this woman, falling down the stairs, because it's that seems ludicrous. As I said, I believe she was attacked at the base of the stairs either by Michael or by an owl. I mean she is attacked there. That's the you know that The problem is her. Wounds do not match an accident, they match or they more closely resembles some sort of an attack and that's why I can't completely

disregard the owl attack. I can't just rode out the window as if it's totally unfounded. If you think that the time line is so ambiguous that you could fit in her. You know the dried blood and the the the the neurons in her brain and the lack of oxygen, all these things and droplets blood because the how flew away and may be dropped blood either. as it was leaving the house or attacked her on the way in I can make that fit better than the fall down stairs and getting up and spitting blood out and full down again like that, actually works more in my head and you have to look into the owl theory and go down that little rabbit hall here. The owl oh, I guess too to see it, but again it's it doesn't fit perfectly, but it sure, as hell it's better than

and the stars well, in my opinion, this case will be discussed for many years to come because no matter where you fall whether its guilty not guilty or maybe You'Re- Just not sure nothing fully adds up here, no, no in its because the investigation and trial here? That's part of it, but there are certain trees with this case that I don't think we can ever solve unless there was an admission somewhere there because we don't really know what the murder weapon was where there was a foot or a brain judge or or even a poker. Am We look at it. We don't know what the murder weapon was rate if there was a murder weapon but as you go to this case and what was the motive, and we can say that if the Nancy were amass. Ok it, it would be, good motivator to say if she dies, my kids will now be above the water I'll be above the water I'll. Keep my home and I'll keep my

style at least for a long while by this very much to me and I could be wrong, but it looked like something that developed all the sudden, and I think that's why the process and went with the theory of Kathleen fine. These emails, these messages, because it sure seemed like something suddenly developed all of a sudden, and this was violent reaction. I don't think he was planning on murdering her for any stretch of time. I think it was. I sort of surprise that it was a first degree murder cause I'm thinking it looks more, like a crime of passion or in the moment, which would be second degree according to the definition of those laws, I'm surprised they got first to be murdered because thinking, how did you get a premium

patient. How did you get a deliberation here then? And that's where I just? I can see different motivations here But I dont know how they all work together and Were they all this work together? Maybe that was it was just the time had had the time had come for him and I think of other key is such as casey, Anthony or lauren Agee were people aren't even like some people, ornament charged and or their found not guilty, and I feel like those cases, have way more suspicious items in evidence, then even the Michael petersen case. I think those should have been open and shut, whereas this one does have some questions also when you go out on your own and find information about this case you're going to find you know, people very passionate, their side, whether it be guilt or innocence.

Much as I think he probably did it. I'm ok with the way the court system played out, but you'll find some websites out there. That it's, it's weird, the blood analysis or the analysis of the nine one call how much they pay ain't, a pitcher of guilty of Michael Petersen, one sides talking about the another one call and the nine diamond one operators as how many stairs ass she felt did she fall down and Michael says what you know like he's caught off guard. This website is like oh he's stalling for time when he says what, They go on to say that he's please with the nine one dispatcher saint. Please please help please and then policies will say well by him. Saying please he's Nicky lading them into saying I'm the good guy, I'm on your side, every single thing that Michael Peterson,

as on the nine one, one call according to a besides his twisted into a complete and utter planned, decisive call that was meant to manipulate the dispatcher and, like us, have we covered like PAMELA, hop the huh and in that calls nine. When one says my wife killed herself, the nice sticking outside of her neck. bulk of them are like you, you killed her as we find out later. Pamela hop killed the person and he just totally got the information wrong and set it long and that's where I'm like yeah, I don't really put a lot of stock in nine one. One calls anymore the fact that he says that she's still breathing in the first call and then calls back You know there are like well now. He's gotta say that she's not breathing cause he's got to establish that she's dead, but I'm looking doesn't I'm thinking. This issue

just got worse, is calling back he's trying to emphasise hey, you need to get here sooner. Why would he call back if he wants his wife dead? That's my problem. so I dont believe he's this total mastermind, whose anticipating. He's going to sound everything's going to say the nine one call is actually in his favor then plays against him. But again and you're gonna find a lot of very biased information out there about this case all the blood evidence against him. The number one cause against him and I'm thinking the blood in that year. Referencing is from Dwayne who got most of it wrong. Probably You just have to use your own guide to establish what you think the blood says to you. What are your final thoughts are like you. I believe Michael Petersen is guilty of this crime, and it's real

the amount of evidence that stacks up against him. The first thing the debt people try argue that Michael Petersen was wealthy. Well, that's the case, then, how his boys, they love so much. They were in It is well and he was having the right emails to his ex wife, patricia asking her to more, the house and get thirty thousand dollars to help the kids out he hadn't got any money in like three years. He was for loading off of his wife Kathleen. She was the breadwinner she had that job at nor tell making pretty good money She was facing a lay off situation. They called, optimization. Nor tell but deposits but he was there that she could lose her job and there's no guarantee of it. But if you're carrying a hundred and forty two or a hundred and forty three thousand dollars and credit card debt, the only bread, or of the house is about to lose their jobs. Possibly that's a lot of stress at in that

is perfect. Marriage was continuing on, despite kathleen knowing or not knowing whether he was seeking male companionship. Why did she leave her last marriage? her marriage to her first husband ended after she found about his infidelity, and so Michael Petersen is arguing that she was okay with it that she was aware of it, but that's not really true and even his lawyer, David rudolf, had to admit in court that kept me would have been pretty anger. If she had found out that he was setting up date with an escort, a male escort, so that stuff doesn't really work either. The blood being found is highest. Seventy two ninety inches the amount of wounds she sustained to her scalp. It was seven lacerations yeah, you don't get that fallen down, MR stairwell right in doc. Radish had talked about this in court. There is, daddy too

in eighty seven cases and she took all the cases involving women about kathleen's age, and there were no thirty to forty cases. The most that anyone sustained as far as lacerations goes falling down stairs was one one laceration and yours have the luminal evidence showing that there were bare feet. Moving from where Kathleen was into the kitchen and to the key burke. Why would he go to the sink? Why would you go to the cupboard you can't blame the sun, the neighbours, because Michael Petersen is the one who took his shoes and socks off and left them by his wife's body. Lastly, com. Leans sisters and Michael sister, all felt as though this was murder and the region. It is because when you do look at kathleen, we- look at what happened to her theirs, nothing to say except murder. She had defensive wounds, she added damaged, cartilage

she had always laceration store, scalp you have. The defeat arguing that she fell backwards as chief lifting her own blood that. it make any sense because she has wounds all over her. She bruising to her hands her arms air face. What do you think of the owl? Everyone it keeps up the island. We did on our original episode, because if you just look at, I think it's the back right of her scalp of catholic scalp, it looks like the talents of an owl attacked her like three claw marks coming down into one. They call it I lobe, and it does really look like that. But when you factor All of the other evidence it just doesn't make it into a just. Like you said just in its like the owl, is better than the fall down the stairs as a theory, so we can't hundred percent discount it. But in my opinion,

It's ninety nine percent, Michael Petersen, killed his wife, so the owl eggs for an interesting dialogue about how were vulnerable. It just doesn't really hold water. It's just interesting, but I think it's time to stop blaming the owl when we have so many other cases where the theory that a third party did this an intruder did this and I'm surprised that they went with a fall down the stairs, as opposed to somebody else, murdered kathleen and ran out the front door which received it on numerous other cases, but instead they want with the accident. I think that's where they really, the defence just didn't, know what to do and I don't think anyone would buy that accident theory, yet If he had tried to argue that an intruder came in and did this it would be better than saying was a fall down the stairs for some

does it tell this is going back to win, former neighbour died in germany. as with rat live. He said that the fall down the stairs. I think it's well at work. to then it'll work again now and that's what some people are saying and for those that came away from the documentary series, thinking that Michael Petersen could be innocent or that was railroaded somehow they got there. guy. Remember, you were watching a documentary and it's really questionable. how bias they were. But again I I still give a pass to a lot of these documentaries because they're telling a story and for the sake of the story, they're not gonna, do a deep dive into the things that are going to play well I know right of their aim is to get you thinking. Oh, what actually happened here that the state,

the wrong guy. Well, where the wrong creature, then there you have, it could give them a pass. But I really think, instead of holding these documentaries responsible because they are telling a story, it was their choice to tell the story the way they did well if you are on the fence or Believe you know what happened. I still think it is helpful to growth Michael's emails to growth. All the evidence that is out there, and you can get the evidence from there websites their websites popping up, because the staircase could be of bias documentary after all this thing, was being put together soon after kathleen staff and then as we found our recently the editor the series had an affair for what the decade with Michael Petersen, sheep they they were together. I won't say

fair, but they were in a language- is not an affair of relapse married anymore, but so he's very close with them. The documentary film team was pretty much living with him, and he had opened his doors to them. When I first saw the documentary way back in the day, you know they say that the prosecution and the state didn't open up to them, didn't want to be filmed and one com, and so I gave them a pass on. Well, you're just getting wet side of the story, because the other side isn't really talking to them. But there a lot of things that they do gloss over, there are a lot of things that they don't show you but there's a lot of evidence against. You know, there's that Having all the answers in saying this pursing did commit the crime that you say that sell as well as oh. No, they were railroaded. I could see where they take

a bit of a licence and they hype up certain things and ignore others again. If you were an armchair detail, if you're already had it somewhere to look up the evidence for yourself and see what they left out. This does happen with this even every case as well. Where the document you series, which was, I think, expertly made but left certain things out. You can go out check those out see whether they matter to you or not, and if you totally I agree with us on Michael peterson, and the staircase it's cool, I'm ok with that What we say isn't gospel, you know it's just. It's a case that has now reared its. We had again in the media with netflix and all that, and it was the second episode that we started with,

the.

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