« The Generation Why Podcast

Death Of Sandy Maloney - 342


February 10, 1998. Green Bay, Wisconsin. In the early 1990s, Sandy Maloney was diagnosed with Arnold-Chiari Malformation and soon became addicted to prescription drugs. In 1997, her husband, John asked for a divorce, seeking full custody of their three sons. On the morning of the final divorce hearing, February 11, 1998, Sandy was found dead and burned on her scorched couch. At first, investigators thought the fire was an accident but soon changed their minds to arson and murder. John Maloney would later be arrested. But did he kill Sandy? He was a police officer and was taking over arson investigations for his precinct. Perhaps he knew how to use fire to cover his tracks. But others say that the evidence suggests another cause for Sandy's death...

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From wondering why I didn t matter, I'm ok just an hour, you I'm doing good, I'm glad you're doing good he's, always asking me I'm doing we ve been too looking for what two hours. I think, if we just recorded a patriarch episode prior to this so
double header tonight and if you care to hear some updates and some follow ups on some of our past cases were putting it out on patria on sure you can find it. yeah. I want to do more of these follow ups on episodes because we'll get questions later, sometimes This talk about something on an episode. It's like a mention in them. people say, but what did you mean by that? Or could you tell me more about how you arrived at that comment and so will do these follow up? and then we can actually explore that quest. In further in what we meant and expand upon, because we're sitting right here in front of each other and ve known you. They're all of our lives. So when I say thing era knows exactly what I meant and when he says something I know where he's coming from, but all of you not so much, and we have to keep that in mind, sometimes because we take it for granted, because it's just two of us sitting in a dark room with me. funds in front of our faces with no fees or minimums banking
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how an extent vacations tonight's case it solved. Is it That's. Why not say this all her? Well, let's say this state of wisconsin said if solved, but I dont So this is a did. The husband do it type case. I will put this out That I am very unbiased about this case, but I will say the easy, murder. Somebody can get away with when you murder somebody that's an attic because you can make it look like it was self inflicted really easily. Now that where we talk him tonight well tonight we're talking about the death of sandy maloney in Eighteen. Ninety eight took place green bay wisconsin at the time sandy and her husband, John were split up, she was
experiencing a lot of issues in her life. A lot of pain she was on, medications. She was abusing alcohol, she's just having a rough time- and I dont want this out there, like oh she's, this person, is just an attic. Nazi long before she became addicted to alcohol, she was known to be the neighborhood mom his smaller neighbourhood would come over how she would feed them. Take care them whatever she was that person? You could just trust. This is somebody whose life took a turn for the worse My aim will go through how that probably happened. Saying in John met in high school. I think there friends saw that there is some sort of connection, between them. They, aid shorter, cannot put him on a date. Hit it off and they were an item very quickly. Yeah John speaks very highly of her and for the most part,
all of his friends and family say he truly did love her. You can argue about their feelings for each other. In the end, at least in the beginning and for most of the marriage they were in love. This was a healthy relationship They ended up having three kids. First was matt. Second sean and the last one was Aaron so again, great couple great family It was in the early nineties that things took a turn for the worse sandy was getting this pain in her neck. They said it was. Due to some malformation, kiyomori malformation. I hope I'm saying that correctly so. She was put on a medication. It's an anti seizure medication to started to get an addiction to pain. Meds,
She also decided to go see a chiropractor to see if in a just meant, would help her situation and that didn't go as planned. I will say that I've seen multiple chiropractors in my life. Some amazing others, I felt like I got out of a car accident and I'd whiplash, and it was really bad what happened to her well for her The pain got worse from nine Six to ninety seven things were getting really bad for her I don't know that I should go through this whole thing. and I dont want to say that the chiropractor cause this. We don't really know if maybe her early onset of neck pain was caused by this malformation and then the carpet you're just sort of exact her baited accidently their people that chiropractors help. I speak from experience because I've got
On to some chiropractors my life for one, I had an arm pain. They went from my forearm to my shoulder. I went and saw some doctors about and they kept saying we'll have to open you up, want to cut you open now: why is this? Well, I can't get an mri because of that they said, will have to two exploratory surgery. So I went win saw chiropractor to one of the chiropractors. I saw helped me immensely in fact, after a short time, I could just go once a year. Once every six months or something- and I never experienced it again and now I don't even go at all, so whatever the chiropractor did helped me a lot. She's experiencing are head aches, net pain and theirs
fluid on the spinal cord or in the brain- and this is just a constant nine constant pressure, constant headache- whatever happened, it's possible that it was exacerbated or maybe the chiropractor had nothing to do with the increase in pain. this happened to coincide with that time frame and recover this on another episode or two, but when someone's experiencing chronic pain they tend to self medicate. Getting help in the medical field can be dicey. There are people that I hear go to their doctor and get help straight away, they get the right medication or the right treatment, regimen or whatever, and they get better. Some people linda seeing five six seven different doctors and their pain is never properly diagnosed, maybe because it is that the girl I dont know, but some people never get the help they need or
they don't hang in there long enough, because some of this stuff does get tricky whatever the pace, sandy maloney appear too down hill from the pain that she was experiencing. We know before She went down hill that she had. This grey reputation. She was a great mother so something happened to her. I just want to blame the victim. In this case, you understand I'm saying she's experiencing pain. She wasn't able to cope with it, but her life goes down. Hill, pretty quick. She is a habitual drinker, she's, mixing pain, pills with alcohol. She smokes a pack or more a day of cigarettes, she's, not the same person that John met. She is now a different person and he's having to deal with the situation with children. He says that he got so bad that
at a time the children were coming home from school, she was already falling down. Drunk were passed out from pills. And there was cigarette butts in ashtrays all over the house. It was just dirty gusting in a very bad environment for the children. she'd also cut off her friends at the time that this goes down. She was down to maybe one friend that was regular contact with her, and it just wasn't like the old Sandy, what again pan can change you, thus for certain he got so bad a local pharmacist made their son Matt, take any pills he needed in front of him. and would instruct him to hide pills away from his mother. Let sandy see old Matt. This is what's going on, but I need you to say that pulling your mouth and give it to me. When we get out the sore
She was trying to pull a fast one because the pharmacist just trying to make sure that she didn't get or pills in what she was prescribed. So literally, the pharmacist is giving Matt the pills in the pharmacy saying take these now, so he won't give em His mother, Matt was obviously on medication, and sandy would take anything wanted something to help herself with He was on. She apparently wanted app herself. This is the crude timeline, but he gets this pain in her neck. She goes to a chiropractor that doesn't help the panes getting worse. She starts suffering anxiety, depression? she goes to see a psychiatrist. She gets prescribed different medications to help her. They include klonopin xanax Zoloft. She starts to abuse because she's taking too many pain pills the pharmacies. Are wise to her. They dont
to take too many meds, so she said supposing alcohol it's sad, so they have to interventions with sandy to try to. It or clean try to get her to sober up by these. Don't work if you ve ever seen that show intervention. Obviously it's not easy to get someone to change your ways who have gotten into a routine and into a habit. they now rely on. That is not surprising that they had interventions and nothing changed. But then horrible car accident happens in nineteen. Ninety seven sandy was. driving intoxicated in this Please van John was neither around. He was out of town, but this was too, much in John had been concerned his sons were in danger. He didn't know what state. So we would be at any given time except she's, probably going to be drunk, He told his kids pay attention to what's going on with your mom and if you have any
turn about her state of being don't go with her anywhere. He wanted look out for themselves because he did trust sandy to take care of them any longer. This car accident was pretty much it, for John. He didn't want to continue on with marriage. He didn't want to exposed the children to anymore danger. So he filed for a divorce. He would later he quoted is I should have done something sooner than when I did Andy's mother Lola called John pick up the boys, because sandy had gone into an alcoholic rage or just had kind of snapped and was being very combative with everybody? Let's be clear, though Lola cater sandy's mom realize what was going on their daughter. She was not happy that John is planning to leave her daughter. She was
john to stick it out well, for better or for worse ray. I get that and I get why she would be looking out for a daughter, but this was a rough situation- and you know, There was concern there because of the interventions and so whether you agree with his filing divorce or not. You know it In the beginning he tried to get things turned around, and this is, after a very combative relationship ever since that pain really set in and say he was abusing drugs, alcohol and later cigarettes. They just didn't. I see I anymore they get along. John was in the old sandy back and he wasn't going to get it so he file for divorce You can only imagine that this divorce process wasn't the easiest. There's multiple court hearings and court dates
john is filing motions filing papers for and showing up to get this process going. Guess he was not there yet sandy is not showing up to these court dates. She's, not owing to these meetings, to work with the attorneys it's alright, slake he's trying to get divorced, but it's not happening because the other party, his wife, isn't going along with it. I don't know just in how you feel about it. But do you have any sense of why she wasn't showing up? Is this just because of her abuse issue or is it because she doesn't want to get divorced year hitting something on the head right there. I think it's Maybe she just passed out one day and forgot about the hearing, but for the most part she doesn't want to face this divorce. She doesn't want to is that this man no longer loves her, and she asked to now only visit her
children in public places, with a third party supervision and all this stuff. She is in the darkest place. She's hit rock bottom, she hates herself and she doesn't want to face up to all this reality makin her in the face and she's also wrestling with something which is, she still loves her kids. She may not be able to function correctly, but she still loves but then she has the shame of. I can't adequately care for my own children courts are looking at her and thinking probably shit. dad take over here. She's, not even able to really fight to keep her kids, because John is asking for full custody, because, most of this time she had been a stay at home. You have three kids, you take care of him. John had a job, but a john do jobs, a police officer In fact, around the time of the incident John was taking over
as the arson investigator for the precinct interesting job description, a little foreshadowing sandy briefly dated another man during this divorce process. Apparently he broke up with her because of her excessive drinking. Meanwhile, John has actually met another woman who he is begun dating or seeing so they both have apparently moved on innocence. Yes, she worked or an irish criminal investigator, her name was trade. He Helen brand course. Rumours, eva, seeing or well before he file for divorce, but we don't know, I mean that speculation, he and her and the boys. we're living in areas area, so his boys could continue to go to the same schools. But let's get to the incident question at the beginning, we said, did the husband. Do it February eleven. Ninety ninety eight thereof
supposed to be a final hearing for the divorce proceedings, locator sandy's mother goes to sandy's home to check honour and when she gets there something terrible as happened ass, she sees that there has been a house fire, but it contain too just I guess the living room and the sofa hasn't spread to the rest of the house. So obviously the fire department wasn't called because nobody saw this because it, I guess, burned itself out doesn't even realise that her daughters body is lying face down on the sofa that's been burnt. She just thinks it's a pile of ashraf rubble. She doesn't know that that's sandy when she realizes this. She calls for help. That's when the rest of the families notified and fired apart, an investigator show up. There was one neighbor who later said that they had smelled what they thought: fire around seven. Thirty,
So this is seven thirty in the evening, so Investigators show up. They look at this mess of a house really there's in vodka bottles everywhere, there's half in cigarettes laying everywhere, and this was something that site he was known to do- is light a cigarette. Put it down forget about it, light up another one, so they're, looking at this fire and thinking this is an accidental death. She burned alive while she was passed out drunk essential. that's the kind of going fury at first right. Yeah, there were ashtrays filled with cigarettes, but then there were cigarettes that they could tell had literally burned out next to the ashtrays they set down and would burn very underneath next to the ashtray This is the first time we have heard of this. No it's pretty common. Sadly does. Why are you here? bout? Don't smoke in bad or don't smoke cigarettes in doors because it can cause a fire
and especially, if you're a drinker or do drugs things that might make you pass out there. You go and they can enter this house and look around and think wow. This does look like sandal fire they still have to investigate and so they start taking an inventory of what they can find in the house. It could be related to what happened, one of the most important things that Fine right away is something they find in the garbage. Can it was crumpled pages of a suicide note. Ah now we're going from a terrible accident to Maybe this is intentional self inflicted these notes appeared to be in her handwriting and they were, ST john they read like I'm sorry I loved you etc, etc. They were all seemingly short notes they were all
written in a crumpled thrown away as if she was trying to say something, but just wasn't he they with what she was saying or was getting who upset to finish and so Oh, she must have stopped after the fifth one down in the basement. They find an extension cord hanging from, I guess, a conduit pipe or the ceiling, and it was a noose. So this cord was hanging down front of the couch and near a coffee table. There were two viziers stacked on the coffee table beneath the hanging cord that were not connected to the tv. They were just stack they're here, I'm thinking the coffee table, maybe wasn't high enough, so she put more stuff like viziers on it, to stand on, to try to hang yourself my impression of this there is a website that supportive of John maloney, who will this aspect here and there's an
look. You can read on their where they lay out the case for you, there, theory, is that she needed the vcr stacked up in order to reach the pipe detail, the cord up there, because she was too short to reach just by standing on the table. That actually makes more sense. I gotta, but regardless Why are there two vcrs on the coffee table? I don't think they'd been sitting there for months. If look at the image and there is an image you can find of the scene in the basement. It appears the court is very very long. I would say this was a poor attempt at suicide that I would describe it probably didn't exactly know how to do it. Sadly, it doesn't take much to choke yourself, but this wasn't going to work. The investigators down The place and luminal be sure to check where the crowded sing in theatres July fifteenth
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calm suggestion why code jen? Why like they should there is evidence of blood on the coffee table on the floor. or in the laundry room and in the bathroom there are bloody footprints and then they find bloody, rags and tissues in the trash. And then this is key. We find a bloody shirt in the laundry hamper in the bathroom. The shirt was a woman style, shirt had blood on it and it was stuffed ports. The bottom of the hamper like it was not laying on top, and you would just assume that whatever happens that made her bleed was the last event in this basement. So why would this bloody should be under other clothing? Another thing that they found was a bloody fingerprint. This is a finger that must be placed into the blood and left print and they were able to match it. To someone who was one
the few people who had a key to the home sandy's friend, jody pollack: woe, not the husband. We said that her body was found charge on the couch from the fire, but something happened in the basement. When they do an autopsy on sandy, they will determine that she had been hit in the back of the head. So if you compare the injured, to the shirt that was found its clear that she must have been wearing that shirt when she suffered the head injury you said hit in the back of the head, but you say she had a wound on. The back of her head were not sure. If she was hit fell. What struck something yeah. She had a laceration going straight down the back of her head. She had some bruising on the back of her neck and some bruising on her back.
so investigators, starting to think did somebody hit her with somebody holding her down from behind. What's going on? near the medical examiner foundation It died between six and eight p m, which makes sense, but when each tat, her lungs. She had very little soot in her lungs, which didn't make sense, because if you die in a fire, you inhale all that certain smoke and so Level should have been much higher. They were under ten percent like not not only just the sick. Is not present and her lungs, but they took carbon monoxide levels from her blood and what not tissues they were. seven or eight percent, like seventy percent, so she's gonna, like a tenth of what she should have had like well, did she burned to death? Does she didn't die from just breathing in small?
and then they start to look at how her body was lying face down on the couch and they think. Well, that's a little weird too. Her blood alcohol level when tested was point two five which is really high, but they estimated because of when she had died that it had to have been about point three six point four is lethal and I would say Point three! Six in conjunction with drugs medicines and all kinds of other pills neck and stop your breathing real quick. You should never take any key of prescription, met an drink alcohol on top of it because they amplify each other's affects. All of that can kill you, the assistant medical examiner did the autopsy, but the
nickel examiner is the one that listed or cause of death and doktor Gregory shrunk said it was probably manual strangulation. That sounds like murder absolutely, annual strangulation, as opposed to her hanging herself. But is it that's a question here? Any time a wife dies, the husband is the first person that detectives look at absolutely. Usually that's the husband it, but her husband worked or the police department. The green bay police department, which was the police department overseeing this case, and he was the the arson investigator lead here we have a guy that knows how they investigate arson and his wife, who he's divorcing
seemingly dies and a fire? Quoting quote? We talked about this and every case. If you have any kind of quest, in about conflict of interest. On a case, what did you do? Get it other police department involved, get somebody else to come and handle it dont. Do it yourself for another law enforcement department, and so the wisconsin department of justice they came in to take over the case, so there's no conflict and the other thing I want to say this is sure John was taking over as arson investigator, but I wonder how much training you really had, because from what I've read it seems he had a class. It seems he had some class is over. Certain weeks time. You know it. back, then I don't know what kind of training they had to qualify themselves as that. But again he didn't
investigate it, so I guess it's a moot point. They asked John, where he was at this time. They ve identified the time of death by a few different factor. There's one sandy was on the phone with her mom at around six fifteen and then, after that time frame, the phone was taken off the hook There were a lot of incoming calls that war answered her went to a busy signal according to vessels, it is on the phone companies. Then there was a clock in the room that melted the clock had stopped at seven. Fifty three they know that the fire had been burning for a little while before that, so they're estimating her time of death around seven thirty, two, somebody five, whereas John say he was at that time, his girlfriend says she was with him all night that John the boys put it. Bed together when he went picked up
of his boys from batting practice or somethin yeah. He was practised, she said that only time she wasn't with them, but it's a short window of time and he did go pick up his son apparently so he has an alibi. He has people saying no. We were with him, but because investigators are questioning John and her. She lawyers up yeah Tracy Helen brand gets an attorney. Immediately. She is concerned and she tries to John hey. You needed an attorney. You need to take care of things. Here and he's lake. I dont have money for an attorney, I'm in middle of this nasty divorce and all my money, I'm on a cop salary. I Do this so Why do I need an attorney? I'm trying to cooperate with the investigation? I'm trying to help the investigation, so he doesn't lawyer up
away its around this time. That tracy starts changing the way she, deals with John, it's really interesting. So one of John sisters actually picks up on this and says I think, you're being your best interest not to see tracy anymore. He doesn't really get that message because he really likes tracy, but and understand that his girlfriend is working for the cops now end, essentially trying to get him to confess to this crime yeah, she goes to the police and says you know. I have some information that may be useful. She sang- I had a nap at this time in that time frame where, I don't know what was going on. I can't vouch for John for this praetor time around. Seventy eight p m know her first time is different, and so there like. Actually, unless you are napping this time to that time. What you're telling
doesn't help. So it was a different time, thus a greater say that doesn't help us. So then she changes the time too, time is the death. No, she just adds a second nap. Ok Yeah she says I well know. I had a second nap so now had to naps, and now she can't vouch for John anymore. And so you wonder, how did that happen? Some people say that he was just a very paranoid person and so that might explain her behavior or if you go by investigators would say she started to cease John had something to do with his wife's death, so in I have ninety. Ninety eight tracy the John, I can't be without you, I need you, she want him to go with her somewhere now. They want to take a vacation; to vegas. The investigators had placed voice recording
movement and a camera in the hotel room to record everything. That said, of course, they're telling tracy get him to talk. According to investigators, they're, not telling her what to say, but think it's understood what she supposed to ask the way. Tracy goes about this, isn't exactly the way. I would you don't believe for one minute that investigators said yell at John, say: did you murder your wife, not just that she wakes up for thirty in the morning out of a dead sleep and then starts confronting him about what happened. John gets pretty I rate,
probably because he's being woken up early in the morning, and now that I am right there with them now. I think this discussion turns into a very heated argument to the point where John actually stands up and pushes Tracy up against a wall becomes physical whither. It isn't beater up, but he gets visit Doesn't look good on the camera at all? It's this law long drawn out cry fast fight investigators, get eighteen hours worth a video of this discussion. Now, if you watch the forensic file show on his you're going to here, maybe three sentences from that eighteen hours. I will say that, of those eighteen hours john saying I had no to do this I didn't.
kill her blah blah blah, but then the one sentence you here is: I went to the house that day I wanted this to be over. I with sick of this. My think he said he was out at night. They noticed it based on the evening, if your name Instigator in and you re suspect the husband, because what was his motive well, he was trying to get divorced from his wife he wasn't cooperating. Even the time when they were supposed to finalize all this. Her lawyer, talking about taking off like I'm done, and that would just rush this out even further. So maybe he's really upset that dragging this on he's done with her keys, meaning he was there the night she died there, and so this is a choice in his statement because remember he said I was at home all night building, bad and picking up the kids bob law. Now he essentially It's that he went there that I just say that day it's
engine is story, but again he doesn't say I killed her. He just said I wanted this done in to what you said was that I wanted to tell you need to show up at court tomorrow? So we can finalize this, or was he showing up to kill her in a rage? That's the queen What does he mean by this? I just wanted to get it done well. This is all investigators need, because if you change your story, and they suspect you that's just ammunition for them and they're ready to go to court. The trial is and brown county and its circuit judge peter nays. Prior to the trial John had filed motions to suppress the video I would to become his hits really bad for him. He's essentially getting physical with his current girlfriend, which duchess makes it look like. Oh, he probably got physical with your x Y
Now you're angry in your violent and it's all this video, oh and by the way you changed your story, yeah your alibis done video that is going to be shown in court and the video that's even on the tv show, is heavily edited to just show the bad parts and not the other eighteen hours, so a tv show they have to edit it in court. They obviously show eighteen hours of footage. There is some question there whether it was added, or not definitely was only parts of it were shown in sadly, the defence didn't care to try to show the other parts of it, so the only power that were shown are they most inflammatory towards John, so deep Persecution was Joe palace and vince biscuit pick two interesting things about the defence, the
defence attorney the primary one was suggested to John by his girlfriend tracy, and she said he can help. You John accepted this attorney. Now this Bernie works with his daughter, gerald and brigitte boil so, father daughter team. I thought that was interesting. Now doing trial. John tells the jury gone over to sandy's home. To make sure that would be in court. The next day, which My own opinion, that's what it sounded like on the tape she had missed. Sir, If not all the previous hearings, was dragging out this whole process. The prosecution says that John went there: hit her over the head with a blunt object causing the wound on the back of her head and thus the
blood found in the home, then John panicked and strangled her to death. He discarded her shirt, her bloody shirt in the hamper cleaned himself up in the bathroom and then let the couch on fire using vodka to covers tracks, and then he lit a bunch of cigarettes. Also the house to make it look like it was an accident. They also found a weird burn. P turn in the carpet. That looks like liquid burn pattern. For me, the layman, who has no idea what and accelerate burn pattern, looks like if you board,
bunch of vodka on the floor and lit it on fire, it be an odd shaped puddle. Meanwhile, they also find some tissue all around the couch and it looks like it was rolled tissue, meaning it wasn't just wads of tissue. It was just a role, possibly a wick. Possibly some sort of way to start the fire. That's what they're selling to the jury and the other thing want to do as they want to show video of the crime scene, and they call it a crime scene. They say here it is in the village, Oh is in that room, but then and showing a close up with sandy maloney s head. This is her charred head corset offence raises think about this and says now: no, no! No! No! We stop this, but in the end the judge sides now, we can show this video, but for that and they're saying now the jury, to be angry with John, because
they're gonna say, look what you did to her. We talk, this before, when you show certain pictures or videos in court, they can be very powerful. Remember, she had bruising on her neck and her back and this gash on the back of her head, so the prosecutors to about how he probably had his knee in her back while he was strangling her from behind causing this bruising. The bruising well was that cause by somebody beating her, was that caused by somebody putting their knee inner back or was that caused by a fall. We have this news and this weird rig downstairs and we have suicide notes everywhere. Could this be an accident or could this an attempted suicide where she fell and hurt herself, Prosecution tries to make sure things are clear for the jury by bringing in
sandy psychiatrist. This psychiatrist had a lot to say, doktor john stem, who had worked sandy for awhile, because she had depression and anxiety said that sandy had told him first over the phone and later in person that John had used her physically and mentally during their marriage and, of course, the defences like no. No, no, no we're not having this, but again their overruled. The judges fine, because I guess the psychiatrist he met with Andy. He was seeing her and trying to help her, and this is he said sandy told him, but for the defence or like this is uncorroborated. Your word, you could have come in just said, whatever it's weird doctor patient privilege there, but I guess when she's deceased then no longer, this, while any is attempting to help her. So this is what it takes. So
very much believes in what he sang, but defences seeing this as another character assassination head out on John bologna. They first show the hat they show Testimony from the psychiatrist me where they said to go with this they're trying to defend a guy that the solution is saying. Is a bad person he's violent, he's abusive? He wanted his wife had she has bruising the place was set on fire What do you need to know? He was filing for divorce. He was going have to pay her alimony and a percentage pension a per se like half, you know- and this is this all, the motive, you need right and if you just go by prosecution says damn the husband did it. When I went into this
That was my initial. That was probably did this. You watch that forensic file show your come out of that thinking. He's guilty guilty a anyway. Swollen, I think part of that is because they paint this as the bruising is definitive. The strangulation is definitive. The burn pattern is definitive. She wasn't killed by fire or smoke. She was dead before, because of the lack of carbon monoxide and certain her lungs, so the defence day after step in and do something they have to try and rescue their client. So they come up with an alternative suspect. I'm going to just say this now. I think this is the worst strategy they could have chose but go on if by strategy you mean pointed and this aspect. I don't think that's bad, I think, pointing to
girlfriend is the suspect. That is a big mistake, so they point to tracy johns girlfriend as the perpetrators of this crime. Let's back up and without bloody fingerprint fingerprint in the blood who left that that was sandy's friend jody like who had come over to help her, despite sandy's paying and her anger and depression, everything else she stood by her she kept coming by to check on and see if she needed anything. So I think the defence is throwing tracy under the bus because she's what John she has motive to kill sandy, because of this nasty divorce, whereas sandy's friend find motive with her. Why would she kill sandy but technically,
She's, the only physical evidence left at the scene, right, yeah, If you're looking for, is there any and the evidence left by a supposed perpetrator in a supposed crime. Then all you have is jody majorities. Her friend, What is your friend would appear not to have any motive at all, and these never really question her she's, a sort of bearing on Tracy, however, attempts to leave in the defence make sure point this out: tracy tried to skip town after the first day of stony she's gone, she tries get away the police catcher their makes her look guilty, but I think that the bad strategy for a lot of reasons. My First reason is Tracy. was johns alibi. So by say She did it. Or throwing his entire alibi out the window she already through,
out. When she said I took an app away that didn't work, ok to two naps, so she'd already gotten rid of the alibi. I think you could of challenge that and still had a somewhat valid alibi, but when you point terror as the perpetrator you ve thrown all of them out the window. So there's no idea where John was during this whole will he still has its children as far as alibi goes? I think they potent thing here is that by going after Tracy there going after someone who the only motive they can come up with. Is she wanted his wife out of the picture which He was already away from her. He wasn't going back, but she left no forensic evidence if she was ever at the house which he said I have never been in the house. Then she makes strange statements like what, if they find one of my hair is there in that crap
What if she leaves a hair on his shirt and he goes to the house and it falls off and they find it. I get that, but again she could just be paranoid. I think the defence should adjust stuck with this was a year failed suicide attempts or an accidental death. After suicide attempt. I think a logical explanation could have been. She was on pills. Andrea king was in the middle of a suicide attempts and smoking when she passed out and then burned alive or go back there is an attempted suicide in the basement. Then she goes. Upstairs and then from the effects of the fall in with the extreme alcohol. The content in your blood and the alcohol was point to five at the minimum at the highest. Probably point three, six that's close only the level that easily planes? What happened by
Everyone has a motive here, in this case the prosecution sk laughter John, the defence months, go after johns girlfriend. They should adjust two accidental or suicide, and not gone after Tracy. What they should have done was go after the evidence exactly We know that trials are always about evidence. Thereabout. Who do you trust and in this case, the prosecution does a better job. Painting John is someone you can't trust and John doe. Do himself any favours with the eighteen hours of footage of him five with his girlfriend in a hotel room in vegas. Nor does it look good that he's filing for divorce and he's a new who arson investigator and the psychiatrist comes in and says that he was abusive. This all matches up and he's dating a younger woman yeah. The jury goes to delay, right after about eight days every seventeenth, nineteen, ninety, nine john.
It's verdict comes in, don't think, there's any surprise here he was found guilty, one count. First degree, murder, one count arson and one count mutilating a corpse. This is a surprise to John and his family for the rest of us, and we all saw comment. but when you're in that moment- and you have so much faith in your father when you have so much faith, system and darted out at all. This is a shock to them. Most of you know. I've been an audible subscriber for like a decade now audible offers an incredible, action of audio books across every genre. I personally love the audible originals. They have everything from top celebrity, is renowned experts and, as an audible member, I get access to a growing selection of audio books, the originals podcast, it's all included in my membership.
Yet one title a month to keep, and I get to hear exclusive podcast that I can't find anywhere else. I just but the audio book anti social about online. Extremism, techno utopians and the hijacking of the american conversation let out hope you discover new ways to laugh, be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does a audible, dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text guida BP, two five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slashed cheetah, BP or text gdp pete five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dot com, slash gwp john sentence was for life We have a chance at pearl in twenty five years, but still that's a long time. John sons have stood by him their family members have stood by him, but he's a guilty man now and he's after prison. We can go through and say here's what we think happened, but the court doesn't care.
I mean, let's look at this evidence. Did he attack her downstairs and then the fight went upstairs and he finished off on the couch. This is a odd spread of a crime scene between the basement and then a fire upstairs in the prosecutions theory. I find huge holes in it. I really don't care for the prosecutions theory at all, but just because the prosecutor isn't getting the play by playwright. Does that mean John didn't do it? I find problems with prosecutors. There is all the time, but still think the guy's guilty. In this case we have some rolled up tissue. That looks like wicks. We have me
to pull cigarettes that our lit and burned out all over the house. Is this him making it look like an accident in him, creating fires all over the house, or is this somebody that's an alcoholic whose forgetting that she's lighting cigarettes, many experts, been brought into look at this case since the trial all seem to conclude either dead. trial was unfair, or that John didn't have anything to do with his wife staff. These are all Beckett names they brought in friendship, pathology they brought in the original medical examiner and on down the line as they reviewed things they found stuff that they weren't happy with the original medical examiner, doktor Gregory shrunk says. I didn't know: anything about her habits, about the way that He was careless with cigarettes. He said he also didn't know that she had read suicide notes that were found in the garbage he's late
Once you see all this, he gives everything a different context. He like this should be looked into again. We need to We examined this case, but I guess you say the government. They don't want to change anything. They're fine result. So we didn't. Doing wrong referred the letter of the law and a jury of his beer is found him guilty. We're done another person whose examined this case, who, I think a lot and he's a man whose written text books on fresh, the governance and forensic evidence. collection. His name is brent turvy. He has a book criminal, profiling and introduction to behavioral evidence analysis His analysis as completely different them prosecution has, and I would urge people to read what he's non s, and he goes in depth into this case.
and really lays out all the issues with it. If you are interested in that I would recommend picking up that book. One other thing He really goes into is how the poor, excuse me. I made a big deal about the tissues in the couch or is a macbook that was found things that they see were involved in the fire, but he's like these things. Aren't added to what happened, not really the match book. The matches were burnt, but it was placed under a hat and a hat was not burned. The tissues yeah, you can look and say well. This tissue looks like it's made into wick, but it's not burned up. Now. You think if you made a wicked the way it reads is sort of like the prosecution, say this this and that is all suspicious and then turvy is like. When you look at it, though, it's not connected
they're, basically just telling you all this stuff that sounds suspicious, but you can't put it together to form a picture. Let's go through a few of the things like her phone was off the hook. Well, if you think John did it, he came in get the phone off the hook, so she couldn't call for help when he's murdering her obvious She died before she inhaled enough smoke, so she was strangled or murdered before the fire was set or she might have died from an overdose or bad mix of drugs, and then it fire. Afterwards there was a forensic pathologist from California. hope I say his name right, but its james dipped in his take It is that she may have had lethal amount of alcohol in system, he was talk, about an alcohol whose coma that she could have died
a combination of blood, alcohol and carbon monoxide poisoning. If you look at the now that they asked me that she had in our system point three six, that's close enough. If you think about me her systems compromise somewhat we should not breathing right by the time the fires going which the fire could have been from whenever cigarettes also when they tested debris from the fire it tested negative for accelerants. Oh wait as I thought he poured gasoline all over, but prosecution and other people say well. If he poured the vodka all over her, it would burn up real fast and quick. I'm thinking! Well, you haven't proved in accelerant was used at that point. You can say he set the fire. You can say he put vodka all over,
but you have to prove it, and you haven't in their take is that the vodka would be undetectable because it would burn up so fast, but the problem is people of independently tested. This theory say that yeah burns our fast. it's like a flash it's over, so why would she and the couch be so charred? And they say you can't prove that vodka is you. As an accelerant, when independent. were run. They can't recreate happened with vodka and a match for vodka and fire period. Let's talk at the bloody shirt and hamper Erin. I know that this was a sticking point for you. It appears that the bloody sure was being hidden in the hamper underneath clothes. That looks pretty damning. It does, but there are a couple of points,
have to be made here. One is these supposed nous made with the electrical cord was still left in its place. I'm sure some would say: well he could have stage that, but why we have to stage a suicide, but then have her die upstairs it's it's still kind of a leap for me The other thing is, is they say trained? investigators, which he supposedly was. One would know that you can't erase the evidence with the kind of fire that was set. So if you have a quick fire its contained to a single room and probably just the sofa and the body on it. That will not erase the evidence because is they knew she had bruising? They knew she had been struck in the back of the head or struck something with her head. so why would he try to obscure that evidence? And why didn't he just throw the shirt in the fire that private have ensured? when they wouldn't know about the blood on. At that point, the expected to find a shirt honor
and she didn't have a her and all the above was found was her blood. They have this shirt today. Test it first dna and all that, maybe that's something that needs to be done now, so and the problem that I have with this case is. It seems like. Everywhere, you look, there are problems with the prosecution's case. All they had to do was convinced a jury that johns a bad guy and he had motive. his wife, I understand why he was a suspect. I understand why he was found guilty, because I personally think his defence did a horrible strategy areas. Piece of evidence in this case, depending on how you frame it makes them look guilty or, I think, supports accidental death or suicide. None of it supports tracy coming in and doing it. We do mention sandy's friend having a bloody fingerprint
at the scene. Well, we have both her friend and John saying they were there that day maybe John showed up earlier and sandy was passed out. Sandy wasn't with it. So John left, maybe her french showed up in the middle of this traumatic event didn't want to deal with sandy left her fingerprint in the blood you said, I'm just gonna leave you alone and left, or and this is in the EU book on John. Ash maloney dot org there take is they think jody pollack showed up to help sandy and found her shortly after sandy fell from the attempted suicide. Try to help her clean up got her up to the couch.
placed a blanket honour and laughed that's: win sandy dropped a let cigarette and things caught fire sometime after that I dont think anybody really thinks that jody would harm sandy That whole idea is wrong, but then, on the other hand, you have someone who could say no. I was there when she attempted suicide word. I was there just after she could potentially have formation that would help John maloney buffer A reason information hasn't come out or she hasn't said anything. But why is her fingerprint in blood The best guess is that she was there and she was there at a critical time. Probably knows something but hasn't said anything. Let's make this clear her, at least for me. I don't think she murdered sandy. I don't either. I dont think her friend is a suspect but its clear that she was there
and its clear that she was witness to something but didn't say anything things that might have helped John or even might have hurt. On the other thing we don't know is if John did go there that day previous to the evening, maybe its past oh, that by him showing up here made sandy feel worse and that cause sandy to consume even more alcohol and to head towards suicide thing, is his fault, but it is the nature of things. He's trying to get divorced and she's unhappy she's not doing or all in all this pressure. you're hitting her was too much him showing up in demanding that she shows up the next day to finalize things triggered her triggered. A new episode it turns out that the prosecutor, in this case Joseph palace, got into some really hot water because it turned out that the fbi was investigating him for corruption
It was said that he was taking bribes to go easy on defendants they if they would pay it. go attorney a bunch of money he would get a cut of that and and he would go easy on them. If you're prosecuting someone you can recommend sentence, you can say I recommend a sense of this. Maybe he would say, go easy on this time around I commend this there's a lot of influence in two thousand for he's charge with income, tax evasion and bribery? He ended up cutting a deal April, twenty six thousand for he pleaded guilty to both count. He was given fifty eight months in prison. That's not a life sentence but think about, This is corruption and he's the prosecutor in charge of this case. Maybe he was That John wasn't lying to to fork over some money. Hearings possible just go
over the trial and seeing how this went down yeah the prosecutor turns out is in a great guy and did some things later. I hate to say it. I feel Johns defence failed him and that's why he was found guilty can't say that the prosecutions, reputation being totally tarnished. Had that much to do with this miscarriage of justice is weird. I know it's an odd thing to say: prosecutors totally corrupt, but I still think he did a fair job and. I'll that makes sense. Do I believe that he believes his theory? Yes, I dont think he chose to prosecute John for the wrong reasons. I may I don't think he's corruption as anything with this case, but you know he was convicted a number of times due to this corruption. Bribery he's here to pay back forty,
thousand dollars. He had to pay back court costs they even I'm up further costs to transport him from Florida, which was a few grand. he and getting out of prison november knife two thousand ten and now because I want to put him in the prison system, where people that he prosecuted per cent he's got to get a little bit of special treatment, we're going to go through this quickly, but there are obviously appeals with John it's like what do we attack what go after well. They start to look at the case and because of the way Tracy had ambushed him in the hotel and tried to get information, out of him related to his wife's death. Johns appeal was trying to say that this wasn't proper and the government money violated the situation, entrapment and coercion way out, but it didn't work because the
judges looking at him in saying Europe, police officer, you're, not a typical person. You know how this stuff works and though the very system he works and worked against him, because he should have known better. I guess In early two thousand one, he fired The lawyer, because John believes that this as an accidental death flash suicide. Is it it was like? No, your girlfriend addressed to you before they couldn't see eye to eye. He couldn't keep Gerald boil army as it was helping and because it was a failure in court to go after tracy. I, with John and I'm glad he fired his lawyer and I totally agree with his logic there, because this whole time. I've been researching this case. I thought accidental death, not murder. New attorney that brought on which is lou, Osterman decided to go after the video tapes. All these recordings that were done in vegas he sent them off to an independent place to have an hour
this them and they said there were a lot of clips that were very very short, so when they were trying to get its act together, they said it appeared very choppy now, according to the iter This seems like maybe these video tapes were edited before he got copies. Why would you just have a second or two footage here and there so it suspicious, but is proof of anything they file? Another appeal in two thousand three based on ineffective assistance and they want post conviction relief. We did go over this. He did have ineffective assistance. Did he not? They didn't go after the evidence they had a bad strategy. Now we've said in the past: just because you have a bad strategy, doesn't mean it's ineffective, but they didn't go after the evidence which I think there is an argument there. There is, but I think oftentimes the court looks at it and says: well that was your strategy yeah, that's right!
so you get one chance. Usually, although we know in some cases you get three four chances. The other thing is two thousand forty eight hours mystery covered this case. It actually affected this whole process will. This is why we do these podcast. Now I mean we bring awareness too crazy cases like this and the wisconsin supreme court got to decide on some stuff right. The attorney is saying the former prosecutor had mrs case up. He had manipulated evidence to get a conviction on John maloney. He made a big point of pointing out. the video evidence and how it seemed very, very suspicious, because about choppy it was how much editing appear to have been done to it like you, said if you show a segment of a video
and you shall eighty two sentences at a summons mouth, and yet there is eighteen hours of footage available will arrive in most people. Listen to an hour. Thus doing a podcast and home in on one sentence we said and git funded or love it. The other Fifty nine minutes are disregarded, imagine eighteen hours, so there was hope here that John would get a new trial, get let out something especially with the forty eight hours mystery episode, which seem to actually give people, since it may be. There was some wrong done here that maybe it wasn't a fair trial, but it didn't work. His convictions upheld. They said what you brought us isn't enough for us to change course. It's always so weird, because dna evidence exonerates people all the time
Yet the evidence in this case, under a new analysis, isn't helping at all go figure and I think it goes back to the court system once it's made. Its determination will stick by it because didn't do anything wrong? They followed their process and that's how was the shot was taken and it's done now It doesn't matter if you look back over this case with new eyes and you can read new analysis by renowned experts in the field of france. six or pathology. They can point out the problems with the prosecutions case and say this wasn't even a murder. It doesn't matter because the court system has given its verdict. When you guys look over this case, look at all the points, look at all the evidence and make your own determination. I went into it thinking he did it. I came out. Thinking could be an accident depending on the day and who I'm talking to. I might change my mind
I don't know that I would change my mind and ass note throughout this process, when Johns trying to save himself because he's been convicted he's trying to get out of prison he's trying to prove his innocence. The array no arson investigators report ever so Instrumental in showing, even though they couldn't detecting accelerant they re was presented. Is that it was arson that report was never able to be found again. So I can't be debunked can't be argued it just gone. The damage is done lula cater fannys. Mom has always believed that John killed, her daughter, her quote, is, I knew it wasn't an accident. I told that to the police and the fireman when I first came out of the house she does have a relationship with her grand kids, they attacked. They stayed with John sister gin
all believe their dad. They support their dad. They hope that he can one day, but the way it's looking the early if he could get out, would be february to have twenty twenty four will be sixty seven years old. At that point, I don't think there's any guarantee that he'll get out at that time. We haven't heard of him being a troubled prisoner, anything by it, would they let him out? He said so they his wife, wife, he's not not gonna, show any remorse for something. He says he didn't do so he's, probably not going to get purled. It would literally have admit to it and then show remorse for parole board to give him sympathy. I think that's true. I think he would probably have to say I'm so sorry for what happened. That's trouble because
he's maintaining his innocence this whole time? Why would he waiver from that?
the. It feels like we're living in the golden age of scammers from an adele thee
tender. Swindler, these stories are almost impossible to believe, but they're amateurs next to bear sickly from one dirty and pineapple street studios comes the new true crime, podcast persona, the french deception, the untold story of one of the greatest criminals of the twenty first century, a man who con the world's most powerful billionaires corporations and even religious leaders out of hundreds of millions of dollars. They all thought they were smart enough to spot a con, but they had no idea who they were. Dealing with do hear the full story follow persona the french deception. Wherever you get your pike ass, we can listen early on amazon, music for early and ad free by subscribing to wondering, plus it apple pod gas, for the wondering app.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-09.