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richard welcome to the show. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and give us a little bit about your background and then led us into the book were discussing. Ok, where I was a rapporteur for my hometown newspaper, the hamilton jornal news for twenty five years. I covered it's an entertainment in cincinnati regions. Hamilton is about twenty miles north of Cincinnati call the supper. But we don't like to call it that appear. We. we're our own little mobility. They cover lavish since very arse entertainment.

some national wars for my theatre, reporting and so forth. But you know what the newspaper business isn't, what it used to be like it. In my time I was I really washed it decline, especially here and hamilton. And after about twenty five years now, the newspaper sorted do some quote: reorganization unclothed, which meant that they were kind of cut some jobs and so the fall of two thousand and thirteen. They offered some of us old timers a chance to take a buy out a severance package, and I did I took their sovereigns package and in the time that I had I devoted to writing about some of the history of my city in and are our community and was writing some books about that. The crimes that have taken place here, the made on that they got me started on- was the nineteen seventy five case, james rupert, ah, who murdered his family on for sunday that year just shot him down in cold blood.

and a lot of people are you're still remember that case, and I If all that wanted to do a documentary film about it and- and I had an interesting history. He hired me to us to do like us screenplay treatment, so he could start doing his reserve to start putting together a story like, but not that project never quite came to fruition, but that I did get up a book out of it. still yet to be published and as our shops for a publisher I came across history, press and they were did feel- is quite right that whether they wanted to the rupert book, but I did feel was quite right for them. So I pushed on another story that I stumbled upon as I was going through old newspapers and and written about the report.

I send some of the other cases relate to that, and that was the case of Edith club like most good murder, mysteries, the story, kind of starts, with the discovery of a body a pair of a while three young duck hunters. It was november first nineteen, fifty eight a saturday and they had been out at at cowan lake and a state park about an hour north of cincinnati and they ve been hunting dogs all day it. It was of cold drizzly and they know got anything and they had their boat out in the middle of this lake and in the motor stalled on so they rode to shore and end the closest place they could come in was the beach account like, of course they are called. the data there wasn't anybody there, except for some people that were building a shelter. So they pulled a boat and they were looking around. to try and find a place where they can get their car down. What is one of the three went to too fast

hard and the other two were looking for a place where they could drive it down to the beach. So they could get their vote on the trailer and they stumbled upon the charred body, they thought it was a halloween prank, because it was the day after how we could all they could see. Clearly, where the legs the mess up. It was just a mass of of board material, but when they look close, vague your shirt off, it's it's a by, so they were and found a little. farmers house and called the state highway patrol, because it was a state part. They were the primary investigators on this case, So they got all the police and by this time and start to get dark and so forth, but though the police came an investigator, they they to see they bade. They took the remains away, and instead the sunday newspaper there was a bar in the Monday newspaper this insane inquired a small small article about a body being found,

The police and woman turned their stay highway patrol office there. They got a lot of cause about missing people and wasn't over some thirty that evening, the Monday evening november. Third, that fellow called and said that that might be the body of law he's bergen. She was a Cincinnati woman who had been missing since the prior thursday october thirtieth. She she left workpeople sar leave work about, but nobody said after that god, so they identified the body by the car keys and some of the remnants of the fabric that were left on the charred body, discover that was indeed the body of louis burden, lou Bargain was married to build bargain, but he wasn't living there. They had been a strange for quite a while but they were so rather friendly. Did her husband report her missing, It wasn't her husband. Actually it was a coworker that reported

While the husband did report her missing to the Cincinnati police, but it, but the woman to police got the call from a coworker of her and so they identified the body by the by the car keys that she laughed myself. Some remnants of the fabric in talking to build bird and they found out that he didn't live with Louise, but he was living with. Woman by the name of Edith club she was a little bit order about six years older than I am- and they were together never buy that she knew thought that they were married and she was They going by missus burden in the sewing classes that she taught at woodworth high school so people knew her as mrs berger, but they weren't really married. He was, he was stolen newly married to Louise, and so they investigated and and and through some of my source material, for this was the transcripts from the police interrogations that they did in those first days Edith and belburg.

in those targets. Would both talk a lot about Louise's other boyfriends, although none of those stories really and out, and so after up a couple weeks into it, they gave everybody lie detector tests. They gave what a bill bergen they gave one to Edith. They gave lie detector test to other people that we used new and everybody seemed a passer to run. A clear task is how they put it, except for Edith club it's on on Saturday november, eighteenth know that would have been the fifteenth november fifteenth, They are, they started interrogating her. Finally, she came and confessed to the crime. She said that, that she and Louise had they had some of a relationship. They had three or four meetings to talk about you, what to do with the kurds and and

what bill was gonna do with his life and you all kinds of things, so they were somewhat friendly and that all the afternoon of october. Thirty, as that she picked. louise they matter to shopping centre and that they were. I think around just talking things over and they stopped at a cul de sac, so you're just going to sit there and park and talk for awhile but the car seat wouldn't go back. Edith was driving to fifty six study, which course had the big bent seeds, and she said she tried to the terms set the seat back, so it could be more comfortable. but it was jammed, and so she got out and found that there was a pot bottle jam in it. So she got there see reached up and move the pop bottle and when she pot back up louisbourg and had found a gun that was in the glove compartment and was pointed at her and laughing well courtiers. russian. She didn't know whether she was jochen or not, but she went on

of anyway and sorted roslin, whether over the back see and they ended up in the front seat and somehow or another. The gun pointed it he's a space and went off you. She was Robert dirt. She probably would have gotten away maybe so that that was the story, so her could fashion, Roy cod caught a humorous it in that she describes trying to get the body out of the car and into the trunk win win. Louisbourg was about but couple inches taller and maybe about thirty or forty pounds ever the debt that Edith club ass, though she had a lot of trouble getting the body in the truck according to her conversion. But richard not that long ago I read that Edith used to be a heavier woman and that she had gone through a weight loss phase before she met bill. Tat is true. According to the there nation, but still, I just imagine yourself trying to pick up a body even if it is the same size as you how much trouble that would be

If you were working out trying to get a body in a truck, I dunno it's kind of tough, you or think about when your kids don't want to go to bed and they turn into dead weight and you- exactly. But that was a story. You know that was her story. So then she said that she kept it in the trunk of her car Each asylum sewing woodward high school in adult sewing class. Now. The witnesses later on would say that she was about a half hour late for the class, but that's nothing elsie out of the ordinary course. They did know that at the time it she had a dead body in the trunk of a tree dark and fashion she waited until the next morning and drove up to cower leg with three kids in the car that she was baby sitting and dot the body on the beach, puts a gasoline, honoured and some rags and and set it on fire and then took off and then went back about her her normal business, so that was kind of her on her confession that the the

It was an accident, but that yeah she did, torch the body to try and get rid of the evidence she she she said she had thought about putting it in the river but thought that there would be too much evidence bring it back to her yeah. I don't know I mean you read about these cases. You have to wonder what the heck are. People thinking you know when when they do these things, you know she was thinking she was in texas and I kind of want to read between the lines and some of the things she said later. She she said that bill bergen told her to take the fall that he would tell her things like. Well, they can't convict you because you didn't do it, you know, but she to story of her family hired sincerity. Attorney by the name of fast hopkins, william foster hopkins, they calling fast and he was quite a prominent criminal attorney and he talked about the case in his memory

I asked, and he said that that he just didn't believe a word of it that that it just didn't match up. You know that that how could she she moved the body by herself? How could she possibly spend so much time round with the body in the back of a car. How does she managed to to burn the body with three babysitting three children who are still in the car when she was allegedly doing all this stuff. So he really didn't believe her confession, but but that was her story that she told him and she stuck to it. So that's the one he went to trial with, but he even tried to talk her out of her course. Try to get her to tell him the truth, because he really felt like his best chance to win. This court case would be to have her come out with the truth, not not some story and that's what he felt she was giving him Some story right, so he felt hampered right from the get go yeah and so he defended earns in spite of himself. He had he had gone

a lot of notoriety from from some other cases that he had worked on to use it of a really well known attorney s case turned out to be your quite at the media spectacle, if this happened the year I was born. So I don't remember any of this, but when I told my parents I was working on this book, they went oh yeah, we do eat it, we remember Edith, it was. She was like the o j of the day. You know, since she was a seamstress, she was making her own clothing to wear to, Oh yeah, apparently there was an old sewing machine and those in the health and county jail And so they gave her access to, and so the moat many of the dress is that she for including the sun on there appeared in the bar. You can see the big her. this embroidered on the breast of it you're the big e k and oppressed paid a lot of attention to on two to the waste?

was drafted and hurt her demeanour and core. Yes, you teach. You became quite quite a media celebrity. She was kind of fashionable then at frog I get. I guess you could call it out too. I think I described it at one point as housewife chic. You know I mean they were. They were nice dresses, but they weren't like really sexy or anything like that. They weren't really glamorous, but they were. They were nice, functional and well built the the case included the you know a couple of field trips know they went to visit the scene of the crime both where she said that the murder took place and they would have to cower lakes. You didn't go with him on that europe, but they went to her house in there as a neighborhood of not washington. There was a demonstration during the defence portion where false hopkins can play the part of Louise burden and they brought the seats of the car up into the court, roofs

The good yet way ottoman russell around that can recreate what happened in that call. The sack on that fateful day, so it is quite a sensational trial and and got a lot of attention. and ass. You start your story all the way up until today, the day gave her the definitely that's pretty. I believe yet the jury didn't buy it either nobody bonnet, and and so on that date they gave her a guilty verdict with without mercy and out which was sentenced to death. A few days after that, however, a couple weeks, I guess the the chaplain from the jail came to visit fast hawkins said that he had been in the hands of county jail talking with Edith and that she had

different story to tell false hopkins went to visit her. They they interviewed again. She came up with a different story in my book. I call this one. A confession: re stitched, the the chocolate came to false hopkins, saying that he'd been to visit eat with Edith, but she had a different story to tell added this story. She implicated bill bergen. and she said that they were all three riding around in the car, just kind of talking things over and they park. and she was sick. She was so angry and upset that they were fighting so much that she got out of the car and walked into the woods to go. The bow term and she sat down on a log and she was trying to. Pose herself and when she came back We was bleeding all over. The car and bill bergen was struggling, trying to get the body out here.

System that she helping. According to this new confession and and together they put the body in the car, In this confession, she still want to teach her sorry class with the body in the trunk of a car, but this time she says that they went out that night after her class they drove up to coward like lake. She sat in the car. While he got the body and set it on fire, then they drove back to Cincinnati together in time to go to work the next morning for him to go to work. At least the disposal of the body makes more sense. I dont know about her sitting on a log. Not being a witness to the murder itself. But I think there are a lot of problems with that confession as well yeah, Yeah you're right, I think a lot of ways. It makes a loop,

more sense in that job. But you have to go back to the fact that bill bergen past of lady detector, her task and the lady detector technician said that he showed no guilty knowledge of of his wife's death. Retrying thought that he had to take the test twice. Yes, he did What happened on the first test that they they weren't, really clear about that, except when it was just you couldn't get a clear read on it. He made it was inconsistent inconclusive, so they get they gave it. then again in the next one, was was kind of clear up what you. The reason I guess why detector tests are admissible court because they're not all that reliable, there's only two people that know what really happened that new. What really happened to two louisbourg and bill was it say it anything even though they re open the investigation. He didn't change your story, a single bit

and the prosecutors and police state they didn't care, they had their conviction and that's all they cared about. If it had been for the governor step yeah, and insisting that the highway patrol reopen the investigation. You know it probably would have just she might. She might have that old sparky who, who knows? How long was she in jail before they reopened it just a few months? I think that the re investigation was over by nineteen sixty one day they release the are those that the new investigation So it's just a couple of years. This is all it took to to really investigate, and at that point she was going through the appeal process. Obviously too, yeah. She she can't get appeals yell for she was too is fortunate in that our governor at the time might the south was a democrat and was very much against the death penalty. And so this wasn't the only case that that he got involved in fact,

This kind of interesting parallel here fast hopkins, his law firm, had another murder ass? I hear and hamilton that that got verdict on the same day and that that the client there, his name poindexter, and on the same day he got the death sentences well and He later also got his sentence commuted because he had in his crime was I like, a home invasion and the two guys that he was in it with, they only got life sentences. So how community assistance to life. They say that it wasn't fair that one guy should die when the other two when a way. So it's kind of odd that year that verdict would come down for two of farc and clients on the same day at both, I would get not not clemency but but there they got her senses commuted Taxes, age S and Y see, is the next instalment of the award winning anthology series. American horror story created ryan, murphy and brad fell chuck with to all

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shopping with racket and at racket in dot com or get the ragged tonight to start saving. Today, your cash back really adds up. Let's talk a bit about motives here because, depending on who you list, to it it sounded as though her husband was thinking about patching things up with Louise, even though they had really gotten along. Then you had Edith who, according to her, she said that there was no real interest on Louise's part to get back with her husband. What can you tell us about this? Interesting relate the ship among the three here is kind of interesting it? Yet it seems to me that that a bargain was kind of run and hot and cold. You know, as you like a guy that how they say you won't eat your taken. Have it too, you know he had These two women that he was trying to juggle water the wife of his of his only daughter, the mother of has only

water and the other wanted a divorce say with a questionable reputation. So I so I think he was kind of of wavering back and forth throughout their relationship. You know he'd be he'd, be hot for Edith, sometimes, and and maybe just kind of look at the situation and and here. We go back to his wife and daughter, so there is a lot of vacillation there, but it also came out that he actually they both had had pretty short term so yeah what what happened in that called a sack that day is, you know, like I said, only only two people know for sure and while they're both gone now so we'll, probably never know what what really happened there. That's that's still kind of the mystery of of this whole thing is, is what happened in that cul de sac that so, how long did Edith spend in jail ass. She spoke about twelve years in jail altogether the governor to sell commute her life sentence, commuted or death to life and that made her eligible for parole, and so

observe about twelve years, which she got out and live with, Relatives for a while, then in the seventies she got remarried and she and her new husband, a by name of tailor, built a cabinet kentucky and move down there and I guess more, look more or less lived happily ever after their there's a an interview with her right after the sentencing, it's out on youtube, you can just youtube or search for her name. Is I loved because the all the news castors have that fifties news cast her voice? Its many old school twice zones yeah yeah she kind of cheek. She did maintain her composure pretty well through all that there are a couple pictures over where He broke down when they were visiting the crime scene

but other than that a lot of times. They said she really kind of acted disinterested throughout the thing you know just like yeah, but wasn't really paying much attention to what was going on richard. The interesting thing about this is: she gets sentence and it's only after she gets sentence that she seems to want? To quote him quote: come clean and and talk about another angle of this case, which is she says that its bill that was telling her what to do because he was involved right yeah. I guess he would tell her things like you, they'll, never gonna conviction, ok, I know, because you didn't do it let us doesn't support it. So they're gonna find you not guilty, but he had. She says that he had threatened her children and that he had also assured heard that, even though he was making her do it that they wouldn't sentence a woman that she would get

and ye her children. I once spoke with them during the course of my research and that's kind of the story that they kind of cling to is that she did it to protect them because of the threats made it so that she went along with it until, of course they they said they were going to put her to death over it. But it's interesting also that when she changes where the crime happened, she changes the location and it actually starts match up at the evidence and that's when her lawyer actually say whoa wait a minute. Maybe now she is starting to lead us in here. yeah, because once either got by the crime labs was that at this new location, which was closer to her, perhaps or omen in washington, people did report that blood had been found in the street and if they bagged some some evidence that night and send it to the crime lab because there wasn't,

investigation into that. Nobody put two and two together at the crime lab in dayton and said: hey you awake Maybe maybe this blood is related to this other crime. You know, sir I made those connections, and that was One of those I think the compelling pieces of evidence that that also convince the governor to get involved. In this case. Is that gather that the new evidence kind of match, the new confession because I didn't even know about the second location at all. She can't cocaine It has never really clear why she changed the location in the first place. Maybe it was just a throw off you're the investigation- I don't know, but the irish vote that was kind of odd that she would even do that to me. It sounds like she just wanted to fabricate in entire story as opposed to giving any substance or any ounce of truth to it. While she gets convicted and sentenced to death. Well, that's when she's going.

the more honest and actually give it out, but yeah, but still not completely honest. Still, not completely honest. I don't think you know well. That brings up some questions because I know that the jury thought about the. Injuries to this woman skull and about where she might have been injured, because it was a bludgeoning death correct, and so they were trying to sort that out, because brain to her story. It almost sounded like the woman's. Had it been injured from the car trunk and from the ground right now. David had you're fast hawkins brought in a skull. I wasn't Louise's, but model small and used it to show your powder. The blows could have been made by the trunk of a car and so forth,

are part of their deliberation. They went back and and visited the car again and spent some time you're like way and that that skull different positions and in trying to close the trunk led on to see if it I think the same kinds of wounds that showed up in the air. The autopsy report, because you're that that The weird thing about this is: is it she bade that first conversion and said that that louis then shot. That was a complete surprise to the investigators, because, whether the course the body was born so badly, it was, hard to tell, but they found no evidence of any shooting until they cut went back and they stop the by young is on his way to the pennsylvania, to be buried, stopped at the train and columbus and and had come back to since now, and then they found like little tiny piece of land that that support that there might have been I'm shot in there, but bars estates. But it goes out really wasn't apart. The states case they had no

the others gonna play involved until it all Edith. May that convention and they still didn't use any of that evidence, and in their case, though, that was mostly a defense, a defense tactic. I know that her attorney felt as though she was she came across as a strong woman, but when that prosecutor got her on the stand, said it just wasn't a fair fight yeah he was, he was far more sophisticated and come and composed than then she wasn't. They David Carter got into a a little bit a shouting match at one point: was her defence attorney high dollar wandered just a reg a guy, although he was a high dollar darwin and that's kind of another, though I think they said. Is it one of her? Her brothers had hired him to take the case, but no fun

hopkins was very high profile. I think he worked on over it his career over two hundred and fifty capital murder cases, So he was very experienced and probably expensive. Lawyer now, at one point, her daughter she gets up on the stand and testify as in her mothers, defence, ah well yeah. She testified as too. She had a girl scout meeting that afternoon that Louise bergen witnessing she testified as to the phone calls, I've got and then what happened? You have better mother left shortly after the girl scout meeting, and so it was more a bomb. Publishing a scene I'd, I'm not so sure that it really helped her mothers, defence annie in the case in their there's a picture them in the book here

and curious at all that no one tried to rope bill into this trial. He didn't testify that debate that it was not a contentious kind of testimony, though I mean they just he just it's about their relationship, because at that point they were working on the assumption that that he wasn't there and didn't know anything about it and had nothing to do with it. Well, I just got the sense that the prosecutor even felt that he may have been involved, but, as you said, they already have. This confession. I'm Edith clump, oh yeah yeah. They have the confession and even though that the evidence didn't exactly match up with things, but she said job they went with it. You know I I guess. If you have a confession, then your gear, you premature,

is made. All they have to do is show that it was a premeditated one because over the prosecutor, he he wanted to. He wanted the death penalty, but wasn't there motivation here for bill and he was spending a lot of time with Edith. It just seems odd that somehow she's able to do all this as as Said how did she managed to move this woman right and in a short amount of time I should add, because they said it was about an eighty. Seven minute drive there and back from where I lived ryan, and that only gave her three minutes to kill this woman right mover body

right cause she. She leave her house until five o'clock and she was at the woodward high school at seven thirty, so yeah she was dead. She was working pretty quickly, so if she did it by herself as she confessed so yeah, it didn't quite add up so that escalated quickly or she had to do it in three minutes. That's not along a long time, given what had happened? No, not at all I mean I can't imagine, trying to to struggle with a trying to get a body out of out of a car and into a trunk and and half the big fight and everything else all within that short amount of time. I know that her defence council asked for the vehicle to be brought into the court room and it took seven or eight men to bring it in their. How did they go about their actually? Do that? That's hop hopkins. What is one of the jury to see the car right and- so he said that either.

He was being facetious when he said that it he said we can either take jury down there or we can break the car appear, but it would take eight guys to do it and they decide to take the jury down to their to the garage. the only thing they brought up where the seat, and that was the one thing that the prosecutor objected to. He said. The seats are out of the car, it's not like it was, and the judge finally said well yeah. The jury can use our imagination that it may look like a truck now, but they can. You know you have to tell them that that it's been altered. That is not exactly the way was so far. The trial took place in the garage of the court house where the car was was part without seeks, though, I think they brought it will, where the front seat so tat, they could demonstrate how they got into other their law wrestling match with the gun. Writer attorney played the

Louise yeah there's a really good picture of of there in there of of him laying on the car with with her pointing a gun in his face right in throughout the book. There are many images of Edith clump, but I I didn't notice any images of bill or louis Yes and I had written to you about it. Oh yeah, be the only the oie far photos that I could get my hands on were the ones that are their pretty much in the book There were some other pictures in the newspapers of bill, bergen and Louise arbour data we produce very well. My publisher declined to publish done so So most of what we have our are from the yeah sis, I enquire file photos and also from the prosecutors files which are in the possession of the university of since nine library, and that was that the primary source of of my information ear in addition to the newspaper accounts, was too big boxes of,

the the files from from the prosecutor, including all the trial transcripts about seventeen hundred pages of trial transcripts plus. A nine hundred and fifty page report from the ohio highway patrol stay were the primary investigators because it took place in a a state park, although this is a police, were, were very involved in it as well, and those boxes also contained transcripts from the us and say please. Interrogations of of Louise are not always of edith and bill and dog, and some of the other principle characters a day. I interviewed as a beginning that the investigation there's been some question about whether the confession was coerced. What can you say about this, because once you look over the interrogation whose playing who

yeah. That is an interesting question because they they girl her for like a day and a half pretty mocked me. They had a custody. from Saturday afternoon, and I don't think they actually actually charges until monday morning morning, yo people look at the cover the book and the bug shots? There go man, she looks roth I tell him well, she'd been up for forty eight hours when they took those pictures. You know that been through some, some pretty intense growing, because yeah. She she are, they had they had. They had the the other, the lady temperature and they just kept grown or on it until she. Finally, Finally, she sat down you're. I won't talk to build up. kids and then I'll tell you tell you everything that happened. And so they brought him in and they had to have a little a brief meeting and in front of the police there.

Yeah? That, apparently I mean nothing was said there, so it must have had her story worked out ahead of time, and so then, then that's that's when she made the confession and when she knew that the that her kids were going to be taken care of What does that say, though, if there's some sort of reward for her to give up? Did this confession and let my lord and off scot free yeah. It was obvious that she did have something to do with it. She had to have been there, yeah and exactly how she died and mean that still was never, never really answer, because you but she never heard a gunshot when she was out of the car, even in her second confession. And and so that that kind of tries to kind negates the whole gunshot fear. to begin with, although they did find little traces of bullets of little traces of lead and in the end the end up in the brain I know a hard one guy get out exactly what happened There are so many lies in and so much misinformation and

he was I and she was I he said she said you know this it's really difficult to kind of sort it all out. She maintained this was some sort of an accent. Even if bill was in the vehicle, Louise that it was some sort of an accident. There was no premeditated murder yeah that it was as it just happened. and then they got scared in and try to cover it up and out, and Try to shift the blame on the two. Some fan, a boyfriend that that never apparently never really existed. know, they did name a couple of guys that she had been dating, but they aren't. They kept alluding to this one guy who only came around on the weekends or something like that, but they they they never could find out who they were exactly talking about and that was the hillbilly guy that Bilbil I gathered to sweden elbow lawyers items. What's he got it right,

like didn't distant imaginary character and then at the other suppose, a boyfriend that well and Edith claims that it is something bill said that got her mentioning him as a possible boyfriend was Louise's boss. Yet about that, mr half, Guided by the owner store, pass transit yeah and he was nice too early. He did give her a car and and all the stuff, but but He was a nice guy to every by you know, so I think they were just I do off yet two percent fertile draw on that story just another way to coerce, shift attention from them and try and say: well, you wrote you. We were together and soon, but she wasn't no angel either you no kind of thing and and so maybe he's one of her her boyfriend's. It did it and so they named a couple names and made a couple up so well, it's all deflection like like with it new casey anthony and the many. So how did you?

about this richard. What was your sense when you went over her and irrigation and her testimony and then her, Other story: she came up with later after the sentencing. What what it says did you get of her? I think that the second can It is probably a little bit closer to the truth are just because she did implicate billboard at it, and I think if it wasn't bergen, somebody else had to be involved. You know we like said he did pass a lie, detector test, but there's no way that she could have carried all this off by herself. At least that's my opinion. I don't think she could have gotten the car. out of the car and into the truck on her own, because there's The testimony that that out, she had quitter waitresses job because she couldn't keep up with your that the physical demands of being on her feet and carrying trade,

okay, so if she was you're that weak in her limbs, how could she possibly have picked up about a body that is bigger than her and put it into the trunk of a car? So there has to be something else going on, so the first confession, I think, was total fabrication. I think the second one is a little bit closer, the truth, but I still don't think that she tells us, True and she may have been involved of more n Louise's death. Then she, let's on I mean that's all I can say it, backers yo. All we have to go on is what she said, but of course, like bill burden, never offered any thing additional so I think the second comes a little bit closer to the truth, but still is probably only about half way there. I see the question for me was had the greater motive. His motive may have been that Louise didn't really want to get back with him. That once he decided to leave than she had sort of made up her mind that he was gone and then you had is

motivation, which was he may leave her daily for so gotta get her out of the picture. because he had ties to her. His ties to Edith were no tenuous and and probably mostly sexual right the date they were living together. But they were married and he hadn't take any steps towards getting a divorce yeah you're right. I think she and probably more motivation and eat at my sense- and this is from reading your book- was that She was the one with the greater motivation because they had this fake wedding and it was seen as a seemingly to appease her, so she was the one that was really trying to hold on to bill. and she was the one who seemed the most threatened by the way. This

situation was going, whereas I got the feeling that bill, even though he had some troubles with the way the relationships were going, he seemed kind of content to try and juggle them, not to say that you know, I don't think he was involved at all. I don't know on that, but that's the one question I have. I don't know where else she would go for except for bill, get the body of the truck. It too is one thing that getting it out is still another thing altogether. You know and into to go through all that rigmarole you she had two kids in the car at the time. How could they not have seen anything goin on where there are three, because I thought they were one too three years old. There was one those five gather to to. Ones and then

we wonder because this is something that really stood out to me in the book- was that they could go for an appeal or the governor threatened to step in, and I find that really interesting. Because does the governor not realise that by saying that he's going to step in if actors not an appeal, he's saying I can fix this a lot faster for you am. I am I wrong on this, and I find that very curious Well yeah. I guess I guess that's car the way was- and he called a lot of flak for that and a lot of people attribute tribute he did. He got defeated in the next election and a lot of people thought it was because- or at least one of reasons was because of his action on this is because the newspapers really railed against them. I don't think I have a lot of that in the book but we're several editorials written, just kind of land basking home for forgetting involved in it. where the jury had already spoken. So they say

accusing her above of taking the law and taken the judicial system into his own hands and, and there might be something to be said for that. You know well know nobody wins the elections being soft on crime. No, no, that's true! That's true! I think that's pretty much true. I, I would say, there's probably a few spots around the nation where you can get it. With that, but for the most part I agree most places if they think that you're just letting people off who perhaps deserve along sends or the death penalty in their eyes that this is just. This is a bad move, political and, like I said this, wasn't the only case that he got involved in cause. He was staunchly against the death penalty, and so it seems like on on these cases a couple first when he got a chance to turkey.

would end right around that that it that he did that he didn't wanna, be put people to death on his want of a couple of thoughts on that. It seemed to me as though he did allow one person to be sentenced to death and for that sentence to be it out, and then it also struck me that perhaps it was Edith lawyer who suggested they just back in weight on the governor because of the past actions, and he felt that was actually yeah the governor and he had the power to do it. You know I mean he didn't do anything that he did, that he didn't have power to do, regardless of how you think whether he should have or not. You know, that's another question but yeah, he did everything everything he did was what was within his power. So it's just you know whether you agree with him or not. That's the question. That's a moving ahead. She ends up out of prison having a life here and married yeah. She remarried and stay very active

church didn't teach sunday school anymore. Her children told me, but she did stay very active. charge church she was are she still sewed ice. You make crabs and it took him too. There are some things of that sort, so yeah see she had kind of an life after after prison. and actually during one of my talks at one of the historical society's, a fellow came up to me, and said that he knew MR taylor before he married of club and he said what she wasn't around- that they used. It gave him a hard time. Ask him if, if he was afraid to sleep at night neck and his staff, that but but he he loved her. You know he was he was devoted to her and He wasn't all worried about her past. They built a cabinet in Kentucky and- and she lived to be eighty four years old and and died of cancer that doesn't sound pad

Love is to take out the twelve years of a president and a court or deal nodded and solid about way to go being the seamstress that she was. I read that because she was sentenced to death originally that there was a request to see if she could make another outfit for her yeah. Her death dress. Yes, I do we have that design handy the blueprints out there. is that what you have written reasoning to see if there was any definite, dare I say they get letter? Do that, though, by that time they they had taken away after after they convicted herb, they took away her sewing privileges, andrea nuns Although she did do some work was he was in prison. She made napkins and things of that sort at curtains and table cloth for for the presence step will we talked on this show before we had authors, scott bonn on doktor, scott Bonn, and there are

people out there that collect trade and sell murder. Delia I wonder if any of her items are out there in the market, oh dear, No, I never really thought to look at that. We're we're giving richard admission now, yeah, I'm sure richards. You know I'm sure he has a full plate, but that is just something I kind of wondered about. Well, if you you know, you called her second story, a confession: re stitched- or you know, if you ever find the pattern. to her death death pattern. Well, apparently, her daughters told me that that when she may dress she get news patterns that she just made on that day, What why the daughter said that she bade her wedding dress after she got out of prison and didn't use a patter, a talented woman. oh yeah yeah the end that the people in the class- I think some of this did make it into the book, but they did interview all the women so in class and and

just loved her to pieces year, they thought she was a wonderful teacher it and she was happening with the and She would show me how to do things without patterns and just kind of mine. I could see that because they weren't We're married to her boy outside it had a senator that went, withdrew crime historian, yeah yeah. I think a lot of the listeners would be interested in that. It's you who has access to all of the staff, but if, if you're putting up interesting articles, then they can check him out and it's it's almost like a little time trip? Oh yeah yeah, and I I especially love going back into the stuff and the the the the the the eighteen, hundreds and early part of the twentieth century, because the newspaper riding with so much more descriptive and and florid and and sensational, than it is today and they will tell stories might my next my new book that just came out about the first pillar-

They serial killer ya, I think reads a lot like a much more than this one like a novel, because they would create all these scenes and there be so much dialogue in the new stories that you can just kind of kiev. Your statements gather so to speak and and come up with something that reach more. The novel than a history case so author on my website, a series of no fellow length stories that I've written. I call him to dollar terrors because you can buy a book versions for two bucks of my work. Side and their stories arrays from eight eight thousand twenty five thousand words, and I think one of them, Are the better ones on there in that line? Is is about on a dentist in rows, burke, organ who tried to fake his own death by killing the local urban and try to put his body in a car crash, and then he took off so

it's called man beheaded dennis sought and out and that's the actual headlined a kite got my attention and had we fall in that case and the more I looked into that when the rear guard, and so it I thought you wanted more than just a couple of clippings, so I've got like twenty five thousand word novella length on a story available. While on that, when I'm definitely and check out your site is two dollars. How you go wrong with that. I've got nine of them so far and working on my tenth, I hope bogged down some time in the next couple months and out. Their case order stories, and yet suffolk knock knock, not quite enough It is to be a whole book, but just just

crazy stories that I come across, because what you spend a lot of time going through old newspapers. You just you stumble on these things. You know I mean you and you just headlines will grab you like, like that one man beheaded dennis thought. I mean how could you not want to read that story? Well, let's say one thing with you dealing with these cases that are way back in the day. I would imagine that you have while some of the the heat that some of the other true crime authors face when they write about a relatively rare, in story and some of the families get angry. yeah that's one of the advantages of of going into the deep history? Is that yeah? You have to worry about about that stuff, so much cause frankly, you're one of the hardest part of right and this book about Edith club was going to visit her children. You because they were happy about me that a kind of understood, but but why you dredging? All this?

and if I had the sisters Joanne, Her son was really give me a hard time at one point. He says what how much money you gonna make off of my name is ended. Weigh ins, deaths stepped in and said, while Jan you could have written it yourself if you'd wanted to okay yeah, we could probably talk to you for another hour or so I say this is always good to leave. People want, more yeah. We were much more Yeah, I do love talking about it. You know I I I I love goin out a going to write to conferences in an historical says, reason and just talents worries. I I do a regular series here and Hamilton and I'll be doing one next week rob be talking about a subset of our era. of our wife's lashers here, hamilton back in the nineteen early nineteen hundreds, and some sort of I get that reputation is to stop the guy. The can talk about more. all night long. If you want

The the The. Do you hear that its little space for mindfulness become The meditation pie gasped in fifteen, it's her last? Become your space to unwind? Listen, sclusively on amazon, music or simply telling I could devise alexa play the podcast become,