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Horizon Post Office Scandal - 422


2000's. United Kingdom. During the 2000's, Post Office Ltd discovered that hundreds of their SubPostmasters were stealing money and punished them for it. Well over 700 people were prosecuted or took plea deals resulting in fines and even prison sentences. As the numbers grew and the postmasters suffered, a reality began to sink in; the Horizon system that was built by Fujitsu to handle transactions, stocktaking, and accounting for Post Office was more complex and buggy than they wanted to publicly admit. Join us as we discuss an ongoing case from the United Kingdom that represents one of the greatest preventable injustices of the last 30 years. https://www.jfsa.org.uk/

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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and I remember I ask you this question once kind of directly errand and the sort of a voice, answering it, which I thought was kind of humorous. No, it's scary, because I think about being in that position and freaks me out. Why- who people that are innocent. Take pleadings. Obviously few plead Europe case down, then that's less time behind bars or maybe you're trying to avoid jail time completely. Maybe the police actually guy you to believe that you were guilty, didn't even know you're, not me you dont have a lot of faith in the system. and you know that you'll be found guilty, so You know you want to lessen your time again, but nine times out of ten earn. Why does someone take a plea, deal most often we hear it's because their attorney advised them to do that.
After all, we always say you need to talk to someone who knows what you're dealing with that would be an attorney And if your attorney is saying, I don't like your chances, let's just see what we can do to help you, and that just means already- that you're going to be admitting fault, probably in well now, if you innocent, then now you're, guilty and when we cover a wrongful conviction case. Allow the times the person took a plea deal No, they didn't fight it tooth and nail, but then they can I kinda, like all I'm actually innocent. So I don't wanna, you know plead guilty at all, to my senses. I've had a lot of time to think exactly. So you know this is the norm. and I understand that plea deals do have or can have They can be a useful tool. They can serve a purpose in our justice system and
What spoiler tonight's case nobody gets murdered and you might think tonight's cases a wrongful conviction case, and I will only correct that it is wrongful convictions case animal be one of the largest wrongful convictions. cases might be one of the largest miscarriages of justice. I've ever read about myself and for this story. We need across the pond, so give us out to our UK listeners in all of our UK podcast friends like they walk among us with that. What are we talking about tonight? Erin tonight we're talking bout. The horizon scandal, which saw the convictions of hundreds of post office employees. In the UK in the two thousands, so at the time
You can post office had prosecuted over seven hundred sub post masters? ranged from the year two thousand to twenty fourteen now What is a sub postmaster Aaron? Why say post offices always but further reading, seems to indicate that these are people who work with the post office, often times they have their. Businesses or work with a business that does post office transactions. So here in Amerika it seems We just go to the post office. There are some individual small businesses that do handle post office, stuff and grocery store. Yes, I guess yeah yeah, but for the most part we don't have individual. It's like this and I guess over in the UK, a lot of these people would be considered contractor sore contracted to perform
This is for the post office now some of these people. It said that they had stolen, Seventy five thousand pounds over the years dead then, stealing, from their case registers and take not only do they do post office stuff, but they do lotto ticket staff and cash machine stuff too. So at the time at the post office, had crack down on all of the staff. They they announced. Sleigh hey major theft is coming to an end, and this is a great achievement. Look at all the people we ve prosecuted. Now an interesting way. The post office is set up in the UK, they are part of the government, and most of this is considered a public sir, this. But if the Post Office
needs to prosecute somebody. They have the power to do that. They not need any independent assessment from a secure or anyone else, and one I read that tried to understand stand. It is almost like they can bring criminal charges against you without a grand jury process without establishing any kind of credible evidence or probable cause. They can just say we're charging you that's it and you can defend yourself but there is no real process, there's no way to prove Ok, this guy needs to be arrested for theft and then the cops I have to go and establish probable cars and does not know taken bypass. Although steps and just come out, you directly, the actual department that runs the Post office is the Department for business and
and industrial strategy, this started back in. Like the mid too late nineties, and it was in May of ninety ninety six. That Fujitsu was contracted for like a bill in pounds to roll out there, arising computer system across all the post offices and the UK, and it was night he ninety nine, when day this fully deployed, but the depart of security in some other public branches, the government decided to withdraw from their horizon arrangements and that left it ultimately with government agency that you just mentioned an Fujitsu and its from their. Where they start seeing this theft. Let's talk at about what horizon, is this stem, which was a customs
that was made essentially now for just the post office. Is meant to handle transaction stock, taking an accounting for the Uk Post office. Here, no, what was available back- and you know ninety ninety six to ninety ninety nine, but when you think about point of sale services. Today We have credit machines and You know, restaurants have their whole system where they can see you at a table and process. helps and process the orders, but you think, like store, has to be a little bit more complex because you, after way weigh out produce, do transactions and possibly the manager orders more food for the store stock, the shells with so it gets really complex, real quick. So this isn't new technology point: a cell systems have been around for ever, but you know the UK
The postal service decided that having their system built from scratch. I mean you say customize, but really it's from scratch from the ground up. They think that the right idea right way to go forward and Aaron. I've in corporate Amerika, something like this a project at this scale probably requires years in the making a request where's testing require staging, it requires development and then production. It appears that they ruled the so pretty fast. They created this enrolled it out and I have a lot of testing didn't have head architects dictate and how this is supposed to look. They really just went for the year, the lowest bidder right, it was a bidding war. I dont remember
exactly how many, but I believe there at least six different companies vying for this contract and is surprising to anyone, I'm sure, but they went with the lowest bidder and the bitter that was going to accept the most. risk. You can say well food, it's you was the lowest better, but if you know you think about how corporations work Fujitsu, probably hired a bunch of subcontractors of their own to write the the programming link which to actually develop a lot of the software and four pieces of it. So you can see how the spider webs out one hand is in talking to another. It can get messy real, quick, you're going through and their finding Some of these sub post masters are allegedly taking money and by
like, two thousand and nine there's stories of people being put behind bars There is a story about a man name now Thomas who spent his Sixtyth birthday in prison. This guy's, an older gentlemen? I won't say that he's not capable of stealing, but he no criminal record and he had been running his his post office for a while no problems and this starts become a trend and that all of the theft was thousands of pounds homework has hundreds of pounds so when it was smaller amounts, maybe that person would get fired or maybe they would get their licence pulled. You know their ability to do work with the post office and that's their best.
that's kind of what drives people into their business, so pending on the amount of theft that was happening. that determines whether or not the post office sought Legal, Sean against the individual One man named Alan Bates he was fired and charged in two thousand and three Let's just say that he just roll over and take it. He took a court. He will fight this for two decades. And will come back to him later during time these sub post asters are told like if you're having problem with this new software, you need us speak up. You need to come to us right. That's what have eventually the post office after having so many people being convicted or suspected of stealing etc. They had
sir to it, I think, because their work postmaster saying we told you there were prob. with this system. In other words, don't look at look at your system, and so Was their way of responding was look? If you have any problems come to us, we will work with you, but just be aware, you ve been stealing, we will punish you, the post office, stance was these sub post masters have told Control over their computers in over there cash registers over everything, so it came up short. It had to be their fault. And the ones that complained the loudest, well they were the ones that were targeted for audit to see how much there registers were coming up short by twenty eleven eighty five
sub post masters had been dismissed, find or jailed over this. It is this widespread larceny and theft. And they're doing doing the right thing. By putting these people behind bars, I think the post office looked at it. That way. For them. This was a very simple case. You had money, go missing, but desist miss telling them they are shortfalls? so obviously the sub postmaster, who is. charge of the money was stealing it now at this point enough concern has been raised that there is reunification back and forth between Fujitsu our the horizon. I t department and the legal team of the post office. There are Emil's, saying: hey Softwares kind of buggy and its buggy enough that
show the cash register or the till coming up short, and if we have these prob, You might have trouble the future pursuing legal action against your sub post masters man, this is kind of interesting that they know there's a problem. No that this offers buggy. They know It's probably not ready for production. Real world, but they're going back and forth about it, and it was in twenty twelve that the post office, launched a legal review of its software during this review process they were still going after their sub post masters for fraud and four larceny in fact, but there at least look
yet their software in saying, ok, let's check this out and see. What's going on and by twenty thirteen, this independent company- I guess they were called second sight, indicated that there were defects and the software but the software was effective, but in their report they claim that there were over twelve thousand. communication failures. Every year They found issues at over seventy branches with all there were unreliable hardware or unreliable or internet connections. They said that the system had been tracking money from their lottery terminals or cash machines. Now errand fewer system, isn't tracking money from the lottery terminals. I think that's pretty important. I think that that's what
your software is supposed to do but second sight. Still refers to this system as effective and I'm sorry, but that just isn't the correct adjective I would use to describe the software snuff. accurate one of the issues they had was take Camelot. For instance, Camelot would sell scratch off tickets and they would operate over a longer period of time, each day than the Post office was open, they owe later enclosed earlier than Camelot. So when the post office, It was no longer counting Camelot kept moving tickets. So there was this disconnect during the times that Post office was shut down. This is one example of quite a discrepancy. I know that if there was any internet connection latency, why? they were doing transactions.
Sometimes it would show at the transaction failed to go through, Then they would run it again, even though the first time they ran it, it was successful war. It wasn't successful at all and they didn't make a sale, but it still counted as a sail. This happened when people went to pay bills the link that was established to send the data you know when they process the credit card it was using such a slow cell signal it sometimes it would fail, and so the sub postmaster would mark a bill paid because the card was run, but by the time that person who had come to pay the bill left, then it was being kicked back as it didn't go through that now costing this person who tried to pay their bill late fee and they have to come back again, but it also showed that a transaction was made so
till is now off, and I will say that that the software had enough logging that it actually reported these air. Yours and you can go back and trace them back to eat transaction, and if you were to have done so, you could have seen where each one failed to go through. Do the math and then find out how much money is in the till were how much should be in the till You might have your answer, because if the aid shows that no money was actually missing. Then you wouldn't have come up short, but this how they re able to show that some people who were accused of stealing didn't steal it all, there is a war and who was blamed for thousands of pounds being stolen and it turns it is the exact amount of stamps that were sold, but because the system was buggy It was all on her, even when the poster
this is getting informed by Fujitsu or horizon. I t like hey we're having trouble here instead of them fixing the problem just kept telling Fujitsu to patch it go in and make it work, and when sub Post masters are saying there is a problem here, instead of addressing the issue there telling them your short and you need to make up for- and this had quite an impact on their supposed masters and how they would respond to this nation that they're the ones that are stealing I say also post office. Be aware of a fix and then they were. still prosecuting people from before the Fix in other words it doesn't matter if we're making adjustments to our system. If you fell within that I'm frame we're still coming for you.
The total disconnect between the bugs in the system and the south, post masters, they're just treated completely differently. It's true old habits die hard. So if you are looking to update mealtime with healthy options, get a quick start by ordering Son basket, Her breakfast lunch or dinner son basket, delivers the joy of eating with bold flavors, organic produce and sustainable seafood and meets there are winning shoves are constantly innovating with new recipes and global tastes. Keep it interesting each week with dozens of options. Stop suffering through sad launches Sunday It has exciting new green burrito, a noodle balls for every day of the week, trying to your taste, citrus pork, black rice, Bbn Bob, or Sichuan glass, futile, just heat, eat and love in Minutes now Son Basket, is offering ninety dollars off and a free gift. When you order Do son basket dot com, slash wondering and enter promo code, wondering at check out that son basket dot com slash one
dairy and enter promo code, wondering if you like, we're all getting less Lester less sunlight less being in the office our eye well that last ones not so bad, but aren't you ready for more? You probably already Oh, that price line is a leader in online travel, deals with deep discounts on flights, hotels, rental, cars and more, but did you know that, with price line you can save up this? Sixty per cent on your favorite hotels and you can also get exe This deals on rental, cars and flights, and when you save more, you can do more. Or steps more sunlight and no matter where you travel. still less being in the office. Price line knows that every trip is a big deal. So, when you're ready to book your next one check out price line, dot com for the easiest way to get more out of your next trip. When we talk about crimes. When we talk about murders, we talk about these issues. is trying to run
your head around over seven hundred people being accused charged convicted it's hard because No, the death of an individual is a tragedy that half a million is a statistic. So sluts talk about a few, these people that this really impact it there was a man named Julian Wilson and he had done his best to make up for the shortfall at his post office. He would end up being charged and convicted Go to prison, he has cancer at the time and he tells his wife just get my name cleared. That's all I care about. Is my reputation everyone to know tat. was not a thief and his wife Cairn Tom. I promise you you're gonna get out and clearly name Julian.
end up dying behind bars from his cancer there's another man named Fiji per week, he ended up trying to make ends meet when this was all going down. He lived in it. we heard that was where his post office was located. So now he could just walk. Work, and everyone in his neighborhood knew who he was and when he is accused of stealing and theft. His name, is turned on him. The neighbors thought that he was a crook and they gave him and his family's that you know the side. I because the tight knit community. This is like in your face, cancel culture happening to this man and- would end up moving his family out of there. neighbourhood and away from his post office before he went to prison now, another woman name, Joe Hamilton,
she was accused of stealing, I think thirty six thousand pounds, but she had called for help. She called the post Asters said hey what's going on here, don't wanna be liable for the shortage and at the time when she realised that her numbers were not adding up. She started printing everything off every day, all the transactions everything she would be working into the night and unit of having a mental, an emotional breakdown train. Makes sense of the numbers and by time she was facing a criminal case. Her defence attorneys told her they're going to get you for false accounting. So if you plead guilty they'll half your sentence, The best thing to do right now is to raise the money and plead guilty for false accounting, meaning pay back. The money
that Europe, your store, was short, so her neighbours, her community, unlike v, help to raise thirty six thousand pounds, for so she could pay back that money that was allegedly stolen and then plead down her case so when she to prison, she wouldn't serve as much time Didn't we have Jeanette Kanner, thousand and six. It show that she was missing twenty one thousand pounds from the till Those numbers just kept getting bigger and bigger. She panicked sheet I'd to hide the loss. She tried to cover that up and by the time I am that the Post office had decided press charges against her. She was a mess they offered her a deal if you plead guilty to false accounting. They'll drop the theft.
gee, which means you probably won't spend any time behind bars. You only get like probation and house arrest, so she ended up pleading Gill he too false accounting at that when she had a shortfall of fifty nine thousand pounds. The judge ended up sensing her to nine months. In prison in two thousand and seven, she two children at the time they were taken from her. When she was led out. What happens ex convict when their release can they get a job and that's it up there because we would like to think that people can just go and get a job, especially for they have served their time. But it's like your mark now who's the trust you with money which You hire somebody that spent anywhere from need a ten months behind bars, word for theft and stealing. Well, that's the thing there plenty of people they can hire. Who don't have that problem
then there's Sima Mitra, she is accused of stealing seventy five thousand pounds and twenty two, she was sentenced to fifteen months it. her sons birthday on the day of her sentencing and she happened to be eight weeks pregnant at the time. Cause. She was such a hard worker had A high work ethic because she cared about her reputation and her family name she was actually putting her own money into the till to try to make up for the shortfall and because this whole thing blew up, face because she couldn't keep up she. You know she's, not taking a paycheck because all of her monies going back into the till she wanted to kill herself. Her rapid patient her family name is on the line They came after her sheep condoms.
It's suicide, but because she was pregnant, she decided not to. She didn't want to hurt the baby now she was sentenced. fifteen months she ended up soon. In four months behind bars and We can say oh well, Shawnee show me did for, but could you imagine if you had to go to prison for four months. All the accommodations all the loose ends, all the things you'd have to plan for who is going to take care of your kids? How is your house were apartment? Gonna, get pay, for his. You don't have any means of making money when Sima gave birth to her baby. she was still wearing her ankle monitor at the hospital. I mean how shameful as that, everyone's looking at you like your criminal and then you're having a Maybe they're like what kind of mother you this is. last person working to mention earn what's his name right now
Mr Martin Griffiths he was fifty nine years old and had worked for the post office for about twenty years. He had worked at the Pope office in Ellesmere Port and because of the accusations because of what the Post office was putting him through. He took his life in twenty thirteen. At the beginning of the episode, I said, no one's, no one. Had been murdered, but we do have two deaths which I personally attached to this whole case? We have guy who took his own life. We have another one that died in prison. These families live been destroyed in twenty fifteen. That's about the time when things started to take a turn,
and if you remember the first guy was talking about how and Bates he said, he's never gonna give up. He said I'm going to fight this and tell my dying day He got a lot of support, some of the other side, post masters, joined up with him, and They started like air, a class, Action lawsuit and this finally gets to play out in court where they get to do discovery, motions for the Post office, the posts masters and Fujitsu in its at this point. They see these emails talk. about how they know, they are aware that the software is glad she They are aware that it can result in May transactions in it can show that the money in the cash registers amounts are.
correct and its those that I t technicians at Fujitsu had the capability to remote into computers, to fix them or take remote in, and change the data could remote in and do it. Where they want it now, This is a real issue, because, if These people can remote and without anyone knowing and change things, then post office telling these sub post masters, you have, Please control over your computers. So therefore you're totally responsible for the numbers. Well, do they have complete control o end
as usual, all of these emails and all of this information about the software, the bugs and the technicians ability to change the numbers that was all hidden from the accused. It was treated as confidential. They did not let the public know about this, nor did they give to the defence attorneys to be used as exculpatory evidence for any of the cases bone. The way I recall it is that the only time that these supposed masters were given the information about exactly what was going on and why they were being gone after, as it were, was when they were at. we already under litigation. That's pretty late, my game, so According to my reading, that's against post office limit own policy, their own procedures and its against their their rights. So from
problems there and before we go on just, I think it's also important to point out that, when set in sight. Did this audit and try to figure out what was going on? I mean it was such a huge undertaking because it wasn't just let's find out what happened, they had to outline almost like a search aren't or something they had outline exactly what they were looking for, what they might possibly fall. et Cetera, and it wasn't just above system that they were looking at here. They were also looking at a lack of support for training for this system and I dont know if anybody's ever used a piece of software that they just started during their head at and possibly on installing soon after. But if you have a bad piece of software, it's bad not because doesnt work, but because it's very convoluted in how you work with it, then that's a prob. And that's another thing that post office when it seems to turn all seemed to turn
blind? I too was these people. to learn how to use the system, but it was basically what we had it made. Its great use Oh, it's not working right! Actually, your stealing me, I that's recent litigation, but Essentially what happened? It's scary and you are talking about when they would get this evidence. It's already, down the road and litigation. That's because the people, staff has had that ability to charge people had that ability to just go after you directly and your defence attorneys telling you well. They have all of this area They have everything that shows that you're till has up short what're you gonna. Do you can't prove that Fujitsu and we in the UK government was in cahoots with each other, ruled out a glitch. He piece of software, and that is why your till came up short. Like you. Don't have that kind of legal power to
do a discovery on them and find all of this out, and this is individually, all of these people were taken down with ease, there is problem here. Also in the fact that Sub Post masters did they don't have the kind support that people who have money can buy and we're talking about a large number of people who were all being blamed by the government essentially and that's just a giant nemesis there. I dont know, I'll see you fight that especially if you're happy to get help from whatever bear sure you can, because you, the money to buy the best of the best. So all these bear she could do was look at exactly what you and say they have a system here. That is documented everything I dont know how we can fight this, but maybe I talk them down and we'll get you some sort of deal now and we're back to thee
as you started with the plea deals when people think I would never take a plea, deal, I'm innocent or I guess. I would if, if you criticise somebody for taking a plea deal because you think what you're innocent? Why? Why didn't you fight this? Here we have hundreds of people, they took pleading rules, are they all stupid or they all I just didn't know what they're doing should afford at all. What was, answer Justin, would you take a plea deal ever I think my answer was. Actually it would depend on the charge, it would depend on what it was? I was being accused of it murder or something violent and heinous. No, I wouldn't take one out fight that through and through, if it was something like petty theft, it actually take the bleeding yoke. Some, like I'm gonna, spend more money fighting this then it's gonna cost me if I just pleaded down, but there's another possibility
you, have given the advice which is always get an attorney right as they are the ones that will help you navigate the league waters, but what? If your attorney, who you put great trust in saying I know you didn't do this. I believe you, I believe in you, but you're going to come away unscathed, and I really think the best path to take is the plea deal? What do you do that do just fight the attorney to and say I'm not doing it I buy, refuse or do you say this person understands the system and I need help right now Technically, you can fire your attorney and start over, but as we know just because fired, your attorney doesn't stop that first court date. Second attorney has less time to prepare and will probably give you the same advice they might be
You're just looking through this case. Justin would not surprise me if every barrister pretty would tell these poor sub post. Masters the same thing, which is you can't fight the government. So let me just try to help. You say you don't hurt too much. I get it I do. I absolutely do not blame any of these. People for their actions, even when their actions of trying cover up the shortages made them look even more suspicious in the eyes of the Post office and the courts, but they were doing it because they they cared they're doing it because they have work, in the post office near worked in that service for twenty years or if you go through a lot of the names, you'll find that a lot of them are immigrants. I don't know if their first second third for generations, but they ve been doing this. This is their dream and their trial
make it right there trying to do the right thing and one thing that continually pops up When you read these stories about the people who are affected by this, it's that at the forefront was a reputation, they just really struggled with what will people say about me. What will happen my family, what happened? the family name, it's all been ruined, but I would say a thank God for Alan Bates He seemed to start the movement against this and as more and more people were prosecuted as more and more people joined in support of all these supposed masters. The tables did turn and they did when a pretty substantial case. Where they were paid out fish.
the eight million dollars and compensation now that had to be split between five hundred and fifty supposed masters which roughly that's a little over twenty thousand pounds. When you do the math and just seems ridiculous. they, because some of these people had paid their own money back into those cash registers to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds and then what is their life worth. What is their reputation worth and how much where their legal fees exists, and really pan out? They didn't get any kind of compensation. Even when you see a huge number like fifty eight million, they got nothing while and part of that is because they paid fifty eight million. Sounds and damages, but most of that got eaten up by legal fees.
So, by the time it actually went in the direction of the five hundred fifty five claimants it had gone down to- twelve million pounds it's even less than mine, members yeah, that's terrible yeah! It's- and this is the thing you're talking about the government. Money doesn't get to go in any direction without them, sticking their hands out and grabbing a lot of it. We know this right in a situation where people's lives, their family names were destroyed, some people lost their lives or sadly took their lives. It's like the guy whence responses to say: ok, where you want to dream court. Not ever by the way, but you wanna bickering, court and now damages were paid and that's how they look at it. They don't look at. Was this fair they look at it as ok. It seems post office admitted there were problems admitted they should
We have done this, but really this isn't a victory. I don't think I imagine you for those who went to court. This is kind of a victory, but it's not a fair victory is not ass, and this is going on to today, because that pay out happened and twenty nineteen December of twenty nineteen, which was not long ago now, there has been more inquiries into this, but there still dozens of sub post masters that are fighting there convictions trying to get their convictions overturned and, in December of twenty twenty was a pretty big case where six The postmaster is that were wrongly accused of fraud and theft became the fur to have their convictions overturned. Since then, I think that is what is.
Forty nine more that are fighting or have gotten their convictions overturned now, There are many more than that fighting. I believe what it is. Is there another thirty nine who were informed that they probably didn't have a fair trial? But you know, if you go back to that, high court judgment and twenty nineteen it was just in days that the judge, announced that the system contained dogs, errors and defects, and that there was a material risk that shortfalls branch accounts were caused by horizon so This is where the horror sets in, for me, because reading all these stories about the different people, what they had gone through because of post office, there being told your life is only worth maybe up to twelve. Two thousand pounds, and you can't get any more money after that, so they're they're, trying to lock those five. Fifty five in which isn't I dont think, is fair.
there, but it's also that Post office has basically admitted that this was their problem. They should have. Got the software with Fujitsu, but they went after the supposed masters. Instead, They just saw the money missing and they acted on that they didn't actually look and to the problems and associate them because they were work and, above all, on the way it's the low hanging fruit, getting a conviction charging someone with this is far easier, then face in the bureaucracy and red tape in the buggy software problem that they have created. guess what I'm getting at is so there's this admission, that it's not the same, post masters fall in most of these cases, and yet only six have had convictions overturned, that's a crime Justin just explain in your own words, so that people understand what it was like. Four power Stop this to deal with Fujitsu because they went to gets you and said we have these
use and Fujitsu you they. Oh, yes, you paid as we're going to work on that. What did they say? well see at that point theirs. they are more or less on a licensing or maintenance routine and they said well we're gonna have to go do some of these things and you're gonna have to pay us millions of more pounds and we'll get it back to you in six months or a year or, conversely, you could thus five ten million pounds near more a lot more money and could turn this around a lot faster, but the poster office under the government has already bought. The software have already pay heed an exorbitant amount of money for it, and Fujitsu they. They know where the money is this this is a whale in other, like our weaken. We can build
this for as long as we want and I in Fujitsu defence, there would never think well why, you charge. People criminally for problem so there are software, that's not our problem, that's your problem and the Pope office is saying all your software is not properly. We need it fixed. This is just typical corporate stuff I'm sorry, I'm so used to hearing these arguments. My my whole career and corporate Amerika that I wasn't surprised hearing that Fujitsu push back and said, give us more money and will fix it. I wonder a p understand this, that postal would say on one hand, we have these problems with the software, we're having trouble with people learning how to use it and on the other hand there going after so post masters and saying he stole from us. There's theft there's a bug system, etc. They don't ever put it all together, and I don't know if that's me,
as a denial or if they truly dont, know what the heck they're doing, because I know even just conversations with you. It seems like their people that do understand the Tec of it, and so on. that's an excuse, but I still think post office should have done more but They always fall back on that money. We can't really afford that. They ve told that to Fujitsu, and they ve we'll told that to the sub post masters on a cold February and in an app less tony caresses, woke up, got dressed loaded, sawed off shock on Andrew to his bank. After entering the office, he quickly found his investment banker and wired the muzzle of his gun to the back of the man's head. Tony wasn't there to steal anything? He was there to take his life back
and his plan was so well calculated that for the next sixty three hours they Indianapolis Police Department couldn't stop it, and so outrageous and potentially catastrophic that the entire nation couldn't turn away from it. American hostage is a new podcast, starring, John HAM. That tells the true story of one man who channeled the rage of a nation and took justice into his own hands and ass. The nation washed live Tony, would become a hero to millions to hear the story follow american hostage. Where were you get your podcast? Were you binge all aid episodes right now on Amazon, music or wondering plus the other problem here earners. What does somebody was legitimately stealing at this time. Have you prove it you, God Jane Garbage, how you cannot look at that and say: oh, you can tell us, person was stealing or the word. You know this till came up short legitimately so people, could have been getting away with stealing and
no one would have known the better, but it seems ray disgusting that they would be still say what we know. This person was stealing it's like now. You few broken that try, you're still using horizon, you have training issues you have the bugs. That should always be why doubt my opinion. I dont know how you trust them to actually know. Just like you said it's not that way no one for leaving our listeners with good feelings at the end of our episodes pipe. When talking about this, case. I just I can away from it feeling good about anything. There hasn't and really any accountability. Nobody that was responsible. For these convictions has been convicted themselves There are walking around free fact summit. Had been promoted. The government has admitted fall they ve come out and said: ok, you know things were a great and Culture is changing and we're gonna give this big pay out, but
I want everyone to understand that this is the sort of power that your government wields This is what happens when that power is misused, if it wasn't maliciously, if it was just complete incompetence, but no government ever holds itself accountable, and this is the perfect example of that. as far as making it right, that's probably and after come out, through civil lawsuits, and this is going pass them a lot more money when they were too and you get the lowest bidder, the lower price for the software is now costing them mill in more hundreds of millions poor. So when you have that admission of fault and then you say we're gonna go through the proper processes and then work to pay these day, my is, but then they're going to get not by legal fees and then the people who have suffered because what happened
Horizon dont save any kind of compensation. That's disgusting so I dont understand why the government couldn't and I'm sure people laughing now why they couldn't just do a pay out, instead of involving all the attorneys this in that. Why not just attempt reach a solution, say: ok, we're in pay this out and we're not going to let it all get swallowed up by legal fees Harry Harry. You talk at all common sense stuff. They can't do that common sense, because this seems like them that's impossible. The guardian has some great quotes? By Johnson and the post office. Chairman TIM, Parker, Boris Johnson, said I know the destroy. many sub post masters and their families have felt for a very long time now the horizon scandal and am pleased that we got the right judgment. Our thoughts are very much with the victims and will have to make sure that people get properly looked after.
Because it's clear that an appalling injustice has been done, but here's a quote by TIM Parker, the Post office chairman. He said that the post office, Had supported the overturning of the vast majority of convictions, we are caught, acting other posts, masters and post office workers with criminal convictions from past private post office, prosecutions that may be affected to assume, them to appeal. Should they wish, and I I will have to see how plays out, but I can't stand it. Government officials come out even Boris Johnson comes out and says base it's a learning experience, ok, fine, but what can I do about it? I hate the lip service. I hate that, they come out and say the right things, but there's nothing to back it up, and I think it's because when it comes down to it? These people don't matter to them, they dont care, though you wonder. Why did we cover this right? Because the government for all it
power. So many people look to the government for help. It's like a safety net. It's it's away to form boundaries! that keeps society safer and healthier well, when it comes down to it, much help is this government when push comes to shove and is not just the UK maybe this is any government could be doing this. Are we doing We believe that if this happened in the United States that our government wouldn't do lip service in not back it up, I mean I would expect a lot of the same things to go down, but I would hope that the corporations in the post office figured it out sooner. I mean that's just me being an optimist. So one of the outstanding issues to major. So people remember this, because there was this settlement of sorts with the five hundred.
Five as they are probably known. Those people are expected to be able to get anything else. I believe there are many people, many people fighting to try and get properly compensated and, furthermore, to actually get their names cleared, because that's another hurl Why can't they just do that I'll? Tell you why? Because I think it gives these post masters more fire power. If they go into court and say I compensation if their cleared. I think that just some were fire perinatal. No, The government wants them to have that, so their dragging this out seems like I agree because its every step of the way when you admit fault: you're, opening yourself up to you're civil suits, and this is where the foresters come in handy in a were upset about the legal fees and stop and such, but there are a lot of people trying to help the sub post masters out here
and sure it's expensive, but at least they're getting assistance. So You know systems not perfect and we are seeing it play out on a grand scale, but I would They that there are people who care and you can argue, that's for money or because their passion, but I think there is at least some hope going down the road that Morgan, from this- and I remember You telling me that the main reason you wanted to cover this honour, Maine rather than say patriarch, is because you said this the story that more people need to learn about it here about We do so many stories in the United States. People just think that we're all during each other in every single prosecutors, corrupt in the the government's covering everything up. But now the? U K, it said that its before more progressive legal system and justice system. Yet here we have a mask justice that involved clause
a thousand people, so I want to read quote- and this is by the honourable Mr Justice Fraser he's with the high court- and this quote is on the front page for the justice for Sub Post Masters alliance. This is at the J F Ass, a dot org dot. Uk, that's the the website now Lincoln and the notes. Honourable Mr Justice Fraser said this approach by the Post office mounted in reality bear assertions and denials that ignore what has actually occurred, at least so far. The witness is called before me in the HORIZON issues trial are concerned. It amounts to the when first century, equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat. I love that. I love that because it cuts through the bs. It says that stop nonsense and each to me at least that the high court cared
and that their alarmed by this, so this justice first supposed masters alliance pays. I told you about definitely give it a visit. There is a lot of information there, many documents you can download and read through and if you visit any new sites that covering this, the guardian has done a very good job as well of getting. formation out there about this scandal, there's a lot to digest, but I really think this is a fascinating, if not horrifying case the likes of which I don't We ve ever come across before, if you're in the Uk- and you were following this, let us note you think and if you're in any their country. U S, Canada! Australia did you know this case. Before recovered it, let us now subscribe on apple.
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Transcript generated on 2022-03-15.