2000's. United Kingdom. During the 2000's, Post Office Ltd discovered that hundreds of their SubPostmasters were stealing money and punished them for it. Well over 700 people were prosecuted or took plea deals resulting in fines and even prison sentences. As the numbers grew and the postmasters suffered, a reality began to sink in; the Horizon system that was built by Fujitsu to handle transactions, stocktaking, and accounting for Post Office was more complex and buggy than they wanted to publicly admit. Join us as we discuss an ongoing case from the United Kingdom that represents one of the greatest preventable injustices of the last 30 years. https://www.jfsa.org.uk/
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you know I rail against plea, deals, Ed
everyone's Polly, rolling their eyes right now. Here we go again, there are definite people
You are on your side, but this, but
a question of if you
absolutely innocent. Would you take a plea?
and I remember I ask you this question once kind of directly errand and the sort of a voice,
answering it, which I thought was kind of humorous. No, it's scary,
because I think about being in that position and freaks me out. Why-
who people that are innocent. Take pleadings. Obviously few plead Europe
case down, then that's less time behind bars or maybe you're trying to avoid jail time completely.
Maybe the police actually guy you to believe that you were guilty, didn't even know you're, not me
you dont have a lot of faith in the system.
and you know that you'll be found guilty, so
You know you want to lessen your time again, but
nine times out of ten earn. Why does someone take a plea, deal
most often we hear it's because their attorney advised them to do that.
After all, we always say you need to talk to someone who knows what you're dealing with that would be an attorney
And if your attorney is saying, I don't like your chances,
let's just see what we can do to help you, and
that just means already- that you're going to be admitting fault, probably in well now, if you
innocent, then now you're, guilty and
when we cover a wrongful conviction case. Allow
the times the person took a plea deal
No, they didn't fight it tooth and nail, but then they can
I kinda, like all I'm actually innocent. So I don't wanna, you know plead guilty at all,
to my senses. I've had a lot of time to think exactly.
So you know this is the norm.
and I understand that plea deals do have or can have
They can be a useful tool. They can serve a purpose in our justice system and
What spoiler tonight's case nobody gets murdered
and you might think tonight's cases a wrongful conviction case, and I will only correct that it is
wrongful convictions case animal
be one of the largest wrongful convictions.
cases might be one of the largest miscarriages of justice. I've ever read about myself and
for this story. We need
across the pond, so give us
out to our UK listeners in all of our UK podcast friends like they walk among us
with that. What are we talking about tonight? Erin tonight we're talking
bout. The horizon scandal, which saw the
convictions of hundreds of post office employees.
In the UK in the two thousands, so at the time
You can post office had prosecuted over seven hundred sub post masters?
ranged from the year two thousand to twenty fourteen now
What is a sub postmaster Aaron? Why say post offices
always but further reading, seems to indicate that these are people who work with the post office,
often times they have their.
Businesses or work with a business that does post office transactions. So here in Amerika it seems
We just go to the post office. There are some individual small businesses that do handle
post office, stuff and grocery store.
Yes, I guess yeah yeah, but for the most part we don't have individual.
It's like this and I guess over in the UK, a lot of these people would be considered contractor
sore contracted to perform
This is for the post office now some of these people. It said that they had stolen,
Seventy five thousand pounds over the years dead
then, stealing, from their case
registers and take
not only do they do post office stuff, but they do lotto ticket staff and cash machine stuff too. So at the time
at the post office, had crack down on all of the staff. They they announced. Sleigh hey
major theft is coming to an end, and this is a great achievement. Look at all the people we ve prosecuted. Now
an interesting way. The post
office is set up in the UK, they are part of the government,
and most of this is considered a public sir,
this. But if the Post Office
needs to prosecute somebody. They have the power to do that. They
not need any independent assessment from
a secure or anyone else, and one
I read that tried to
understand stand. It is
almost like they can bring criminal charges against you without
a grand jury process without establishing any kind of credible evidence or probable cause. They can just say we're charging you that's it and you can defend yourself but
there is no real process, there's no way to prove
Ok, this guy needs to be arrested for theft and then the cops
I have to go and establish probable cars and does not know taken
bypass. Although steps and just come out, you directly, the actual department that runs the Post office is the Department for business and
and industrial strategy, this
started back in. Like the mid too late nineties,
and it was in May of ninety ninety six. That Fujitsu was
contracted for like a bill
in pounds to roll out there,
arising computer system across all the post offices and the UK, and it was night
he ninety nine, when day
this fully deployed, but the depart
of security in some other public branches,
the government decided to withdraw from their horizon arrangements and that left it ultimately with
government agency that you just mentioned an Fujitsu and its from their. Where
they start seeing this theft. Let's talk
at about what horizon, is this
stem, which was a customs
that was made essentially now for just the post office.
Is meant to handle transaction stock, taking an accounting for the Uk Post office. Here,
no, what was available back- and you know ninety
ninety six to ninety ninety nine, but when you think about
point of sale services. Today
We have credit
You know, restaurants have their whole system where they can see you at a table and process.
helps and process the orders, but you think,
like store, has to be a little bit more complex because you, after way weigh out produce, do transactions and possibly the manager orders more food for the store stock, the shells with so it gets really complex, real quick. So this
isn't new technology point: a cell systems have been around for ever, but you know the UK
The postal service decided that having their system built
from scratch. I mean you say customize, but really it's from scratch from the ground up. They think that
the right idea right way to go forward and Aaron. I've
in corporate Amerika, something like this a project at this scale
probably requires years in the making a request
where's testing require staging, it requires development and then production. It appears
that they ruled the so pretty
fast. They created this enrolled it out and
I have a lot of testing didn't have head architects dictate
and how this is supposed to look. They really just went for the year, the lowest bidder right,
it was a bidding war. I dont remember
exactly how many, but I believe there at least six different companies vying for this contract and is
surprising to anyone, I'm sure, but they went with the lowest bidder and the bitter that was going to accept the most.
risk. You can say well food,
it's you was the lowest better, but if you know
you think about how corporations work Fujitsu, probably
hired a bunch of subcontractors of their own to write the the programming link
which to actually develop a lot of the software and four pieces of it. So
you can see how the spider webs out one hand is in talking to another. It can get messy real, quick,
you're going through and their finding
Some of these sub post masters are allegedly taking money and by
like, two thousand and nine there's stories of people being put behind bars
There is a story about a man name now
Thomas who spent his
Sixtyth birthday in prison. This guy's,
an older gentlemen? I won't say that he's not capable of stealing, but he
no criminal record and he had been
running his his post office for a while no problems and this starts become a trend and that all of the theft was thousands of pounds
homework has hundreds of pounds so when it was smaller amounts, maybe that person would get fired or maybe they would get their licence pulled. You know their ability to do work with the post office and that's their best.
that's kind of what drives people into their business, so
pending on the amount of theft that was happening.
that determines whether or not the post office sought Legal,
Sean against the individual
One man named Alan Bates
he was fired and charged in
two thousand and three
Let's just say that he
just roll over and take it. He took a court. He will fight this for two decades.
And will come back to him later during
time these sub post
asters are told like if you're having problem
with this new software, you need us
speak up. You need to come to us right. That's what have
eventually the post office after having so many people being convicted or
suspected of stealing etc. They had
sir to it, I think, because their work
postmaster saying we told you there were prob.
with this system. In other words, don't look at
look at your system, and so
Was their way of responding was look? If you have any problems come to us,
we will work with you, but just be aware,
you ve been stealing, we will punish you, the post office,
stance was these sub post masters have told
Control over their computers in over there
cash registers over everything, so
it came up short. It had to be their fault.
And the ones that complained the loudest, well
they were the ones that were targeted for audit to see how much there
registers were coming up short by twenty eleven eighty five
sub post masters had been dismissed, find or jailed over this. It is this widespread larceny and theft.
And they're doing doing the right thing. By putting these people behind bars, I think the post office looked at it. That way.
For them. This was a very simple case. You had money, go missing, but desist
miss telling them they are shortfalls?
so obviously the sub postmaster, who is.
charge of the money was stealing it now at this point
enough concern has been raised that there is
reunification back and forth between Fujitsu our
the horizon. I t department and the legal team of the post office.
There are Emil's, saying: hey Softwares kind of buggy and its buggy enough that
show the cash register or the till coming up short, and if we have these prob,
You might have trouble
the future pursuing legal action against your sub post masters man, this is
kind of interesting that they know there's a problem.
No that this offers buggy. They know
It's probably not ready for production.
Real world, but they're going back and forth about it, and it was in twenty twelve that the post office,
launched a legal review of its software during this review process
they were still going after their sub post masters for fraud and
four larceny in fact, but there at least look
yet their software in saying, ok, let's check this out and see. What's going on and by twenty thirteen,
this independent company- I guess they were called second sight, indicated that there were defects and the software
but the software was effective,
but in their report they claim
that there were over twelve thousand.
communication failures. Every year
They found issues at over seventy branches with all
there were unreliable hardware or unreliable
or internet connections. They said that the system had
been tracking money from their lottery terminals or cash machines. Now errand fewer system,
isn't tracking money from the lottery terminals. I think that's pretty important. I think that that's what
your software is supposed to do but second sight.
Still refers to this system as effective and I'm sorry, but that just isn't the correct adjective I would use to describe the software snuff.
accurate one of the issues they had was take Camelot. For instance, Camelot would sell scratch off tickets and they would
operate over a longer period of time, each day than the Post office was open, they owe
later enclosed earlier than Camelot. So when the post office,
It was no longer counting Camelot kept moving tickets.
So there was this disconnect during the times that Post office was shut down. This is one example of quite a discrepancy. I know that
if there was any internet connection latency, why?
they were doing transactions.
Sometimes it would show
at the transaction failed to go through,
Then they would run it again, even though the first time they ran it, it was successful war.
It wasn't successful at all and they didn't make a sale, but it still counted as a sail. This happened when people went to pay bills
the link that was established to send the data you know when they process the credit card
it was using such a slow cell signal it sometimes it would fail, and so the sub postmaster would mark a bill paid because the card was run, but by the time
that person who had come to pay the bill left, then it was being kicked back as it didn't go through that
now costing this person who tried to pay their bill late fee
and they have to come back again, but
it also showed that a transaction was made so
till is now off, and I will say that
that the software had enough logging that it actually reported these air.
Yours and you can go back and trace them back to eat
transaction, and if you were to have done so, you could have seen where each one failed to go through. Do the math
and then find out how much money is in the till were how much should be in the till
You might have your answer, because if the
aid shows that no money was actually missing. Then you wouldn't have come up short, but this
how they re able to show that some people who were accused of stealing didn't steal it all, there is a war
and who was blamed for thousands of pounds being stolen and it turns
it is the exact amount of stamps that were sold, but
because the system was buggy
It was all on her, even when the poster
this is getting informed by Fujitsu or horizon. I t like hey we're having trouble here instead of them fixing the problem
just kept telling Fujitsu to patch it go in and make it work, and when
sub Post masters are saying there is a problem here, instead of addressing the issue there telling them your short and you need to make up for- and this had quite
an impact on their supposed masters and how they would respond to this
nation that they're the ones that are stealing
I say also post office.
Be aware of a fix and then they were.
still prosecuting people from before the Fix
in other words it doesn't matter if we're making adjustments to our system. If you fell within that
I'm frame we're still coming for you.
The total disconnect between the bugs in the system and the south,
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When we talk about crimes. When we talk about murders, we talk about these issues.
is trying to run
your head around over seven hundred people being accused charged convicted it's hard because
No, the death of an individual is a tragedy that
half a million is a statistic. So sluts talk about a few, these people that this really
impact it there was a man named Julian Wilson
and he had done his best to make up for the shortfall at his post office. He would end up being charged and convicted
Go to prison, he has cancer at the time and he tells his wife just get my name cleared. That's all I care about.
Is my reputation
everyone to know tat.
was not a thief and his wife Cairn Tom. I promise you
you're gonna get out and clearly name Julian.
end up dying behind bars from his cancer
there's another man named Fiji per week, he ended up
trying to make ends meet when this was all going down. He lived in it.
we heard that was where his post office was located. So now he could just walk.
Work, and everyone in his neighborhood knew who he was and when he
is accused of stealing and theft. His name,
is turned on him. The neighbors thought that he was a crook and they
gave him and his family's that you know the side. I because
the tight knit community. This is like in your face,
cancel culture happening to this man and-
would end up moving his family out of there.
neighbourhood and away from
his post office before he went to prison now, another woman name, Joe Hamilton,
she was accused of stealing, I think thirty six thousand pounds, but she had called for help. She called the post
Asters said hey what's going on here,
don't wanna be liable for the shortage and
at the time when she realised that her numbers were not adding up. She started printing
everything off every day,
all the transactions everything she would be working into the night and
unit of having a mental, an emotional breakdown train.
Makes sense of the numbers and by
time she was facing a criminal case. Her defence attorneys told her they're going to get you for false accounting. So if you plead guilty they'll half your sentence,
The best thing to do right now is to raise the money and plead guilty for false accounting, meaning pay back. The money
that Europe, your store, was short, so her neighbours, her community, unlike v, help to raise thirty six thousand pounds, for
so she could pay back that money that was allegedly stolen and then plead down
her case so when she
to prison, she wouldn't serve as much time
Didn't we have Jeanette Kanner,
thousand and six. It show
that she was missing twenty
one thousand pounds from the till
Those numbers just kept getting bigger and bigger. She panicked sheet
I'd to hide the loss. She tried to cover that up and by the time
I am that the Post office had decided
press charges against her. She was a mess they offered her a deal if you plead guilty to false accounting. They'll drop the theft.
gee, which means you probably won't spend any time behind bars. You only get like probation and house arrest, so she ended up pleading Gill
he too false accounting at that
when she had a shortfall of fifty nine thousand pounds. The judge
ended up sensing her to nine months. In prison in two thousand and seven, she
two children at the time they were taken from her.
When she was led out. What happens
ex convict when their release can they get a job and that's it up there
because we would like to think that people can just go and get a job, especially
for they have served their time. But it's like your mark now who's
the trust you with money which
You hire somebody that spent anywhere from
need a ten months behind bars, word for theft and stealing. Well, that's the thing there
plenty of people they can hire. Who don't have that problem
then there's Sima Mitra, she
is accused of stealing seventy five thousand pounds and twenty two,
she was sentenced to fifteen months it.
her sons birthday on the day of her sentencing and she happened to be eight weeks pregnant at the time.
Cause. She was such a hard worker had
A high work ethic because she cared about her reputation and her family name
she was actually putting her own money into the till to try to make up for the shortfall and because this whole thing blew up,
face because she couldn't keep up she. You know she's, not taking a paycheck because all of her monies going back into the till she wanted to kill herself. Her rapid
patient her family name is on the line
They came after her sheep condoms.
It's suicide, but because she was pregnant, she decided not to. She didn't want to hurt the baby
now she was sentenced.
fifteen months she ended up soon.
In four months behind bars and
We can say oh well, Shawnee show me did for, but
could you imagine if you
had to go to prison for four months.
All the accommodations all the loose ends, all the things you'd have to plan for who is going to take care of your kids? How is your house were apartment? Gonna, get pay,
for his. You don't have any means of making money when Sima gave birth to her baby.
she was still wearing her ankle monitor at the hospital. I mean how shameful as that,
everyone's looking at you like your criminal and then you're having a
Maybe they're like what kind of mother you this is.
last person working to mention earn what's his name right now
Mr Martin Griffiths he was fifty nine years old and had worked for the post office for about twenty years. He had worked at the Pope
office in Ellesmere Port and because of
the accusations because of what the Post office was putting him through. He took his life in twenty thirteen.
At the beginning of the episode, I said, no one's, no one.
Had been murdered, but we do have two deaths which I personally
attached to this whole case? We have
guy who took his own life. We have another one that died in prison. These families live
been destroyed in twenty fifteen. That's about the time when things started to take a turn,
and if you remember the first guy was talking about how and Bates he said, he's never gonna give up. He said
I'm going to fight this and tell my
He got a lot of support, some of the other side,
post masters, joined up with him, and
They started like air, a class,
Action lawsuit and this finally gets to play out in court where
they get to do discovery, motions for the Post office, the posts masters and Fujitsu in its at this point. They see these emails talk.
about how they know, they are aware that the software is glad she
They are aware that it can result in May
it can show that the money in the cash registers amounts are.
correct and its
those that I t technicians at Fujitsu had the capability
to remote into computers, to fix them or take remote in,
and change the data
could remote in and do it.
Where they want it now,
This is a real issue, because, if
These people can remote and without anyone knowing and change things, then
post office telling these sub post masters, you have,
Please control over your computers. So therefore you're totally responsible for the numbers. Well, do they have complete control o end
as usual, all of these emails and all of this information about the software, the bugs and the technicians ability to change the numbers that was all hidden from the accused.
It was treated as confidential. They did not let the public know about this, nor did they give
to the defence attorneys to be used as
exculpatory evidence for any of the cases bone. The way I recall it is that the only time
that these supposed masters were given the information about exactly
what was going on and why they were being gone after, as it were, was when they were at.
we already under litigation. That's pretty late, my game, so
According to my reading, that's against post office limit own policy, their own procedures and its against their their rights. So from
problems there and before we go on just, I think it's also important to point out that, when set
in sight. Did this audit and try to figure out what was going on? I mean it was such a huge undertaking because it wasn't just
let's find out what happened, they had to outline almost like a search
aren't or something they had outline exactly what they were looking for, what they might possibly fall.
et Cetera, and it wasn't just above
system that they were looking at here. They were also
looking at a lack of support for training for this system
and I dont know if anybody's ever used a piece of software that they just started
during their head at and possibly on installing soon after. But if you have a bad piece of software, it's bad not because doesnt work, but because it's very convoluted in how you work with it, then that's a prob.
And that's another thing that post office when it seems to turn all seemed to turn
blind? I too was these people.
to learn how to use the system, but it was basically what we had it made. Its great use
Oh, it's not working right! Actually, your stealing me, I that's
recent litigation, but
Essentially what happened? It's scary and
you are talking about when they would get this evidence. It's already,
down the road and litigation. That's because the people,
staff has had that ability to charge people had that ability to
just go after you directly and
your defence attorneys telling you well. They have all of this area
They have everything that shows
that you're till has
up short what're you gonna. Do you can't prove that Fujitsu and
we in the UK government was in cahoots with each other, ruled out
a glitch. He piece of software, and that is why your till came up short. Like you. Don't have that kind of legal power to
do a discovery on them and find all of this out, and this is
individually, all of these people were taken down with ease,
problem here. Also in the fact that Sub Post masters did they don't have the kind
support that people who have money can buy
and we're talking about a large number of people who were all being blamed by the government essentially and that's just
a giant nemesis there. I dont know,
I'll see you fight that
especially if you're happy
to get help from whatever bear
sure you can, because you,
the money to buy the best of the best. So all these bear
she could do was look at exactly what you
and say they have a system here. That is documented everything I dont know how we can fight this, but maybe I
talk them down and we'll get you some sort of deal now and we're back to thee
as you started with the plea deals when people think I would never take a plea, deal, I'm innocent
or I guess. I would if, if you
criticise somebody for taking a plea deal because
you think what you're innocent? Why? Why didn't you fight this? Here we have hundreds of people, they took pleading rules, are they all stupid or they all
I just didn't know what they're doing should afford at all. What was,
answer Justin, would you take a plea deal ever
I think my answer was. Actually it would depend on the charge, it would depend on
what it was? I was being accused of it
murder or something violent and heinous. No, I wouldn't take one out fight that through and through, if it was something like petty theft,
it actually take the bleeding yoke. Some, like I'm gonna, spend more money fighting this then it's gonna cost me if I just pleaded down, but there's another possibility
you, have given the advice which is always get an attorney right
as they are the ones that will help you navigate the league
waters, but what? If your attorney, who you put great trust in
saying I know you didn't do this. I believe you, I believe in you, but you're
going to come away unscathed, and I really think the best path to take is the plea deal? What do you do that do just
fight the attorney to and say I'm not doing it I buy, refuse or do you say this person understands the system and I need help right now
Technically, you can fire your attorney and start over, but as we know just because
fired, your attorney doesn't stop that first court date.
Second attorney has less time to prepare and will probably give you the same advice they might be
You're just looking through this case. Justin would not surprise me if every barrister pretty
would tell these poor sub post.
Masters the same thing, which is you can't fight the government. So let me just try to
help. You say you don't hurt too much. I get it I do. I absolutely do not blame any of these. People
for their actions, even when their actions of trying
cover up the shortages made them look even more suspicious in the eyes of the Post office and the courts, but they were doing it because they they cared they're doing it because they have work,
in the post office near worked in that service for twenty years or
if you go through a lot of the names, you'll find that a lot of them are immigrants. I don't know if their first second third for generations, but they ve been doing this. This is their dream and their trial
make it right there trying to do the right thing and one thing that continually pops up
When you read these stories about the people who are affected by this, it's that at the forefront was a reputation,
they just really struggled with what will people
say about me. What will happen
my family, what happened?
the family name, it's all been ruined, but
I would say a thank God for Alan Bates
He seemed to start the movement against this and
as more and more people were prosecuted as more and more people joined in support of all these supposed masters. The tables did turn and
they did when a pretty substantial case.
Where they were paid out fish.
the eight million dollars and compensation now that had to be split between five hundred and fifty supposed masters which roughly
that's a little over twenty thousand pounds. When you do the math and
just seems ridiculous.
they, because some of these people had paid
their own money back into those cash registers to the tune of
tens of thousands of pounds and then what
is their life worth. What is their reputation worth
and how much where their legal fees exists,
and really pan out? They didn't get any kind of compensation. Even when you see a huge number like fifty eight million, they got nothing while and
part of that is because they paid fifty eight million.
Sounds and damages, but most of that got eaten up by legal fees.
So, by the time it actually went in the direction of the five hundred fifty five claimants it had gone down to-
twelve million pounds
it's even less than mine,
members yeah, that's terrible yeah! It's- and this is the thing you're talking about the government. Money doesn't get to go
in any direction without them, sticking their hands out and grabbing a lot of it. We know this right
in a situation where people's lives, their family names were destroyed, some people lost their lives or sadly took their lives. It's like the guy
whence responses to say: ok, where you want to
dream court. Not ever
by the way, but you wanna bickering, court and now damages were paid
and that's how they look at it. They don't look at. Was this fair
they look at it as ok. It seems
post office admitted there were problems admitted they should
We have done this, but really this isn't a victory. I don't think
I imagine you for those who went to court. This is kind of a victory, but it's not a fair victory is not
ass, and this is going on to today, because that pay out happened and twenty nineteen December of twenty nineteen, which was not long ago now,
there has been more inquiries into this, but there still dozens of sub post masters that are fighting there
convictions trying to get their convictions overturned and, in December of twenty twenty
was a pretty big case where six
The postmaster is that were wrongly accused of fraud and theft became the fur
to have their convictions overturned. Since then, I think that is what is.
Forty nine more that are fighting or have gotten their convictions overturned now,
There are many more than that fighting. I believe what it is. Is there another thirty nine who were informed that they probably didn't have a fair trial? But you know, if you go back to that,
high court judgment and twenty nineteen it was just
in days that the
judge, announced that the system contained
dogs, errors and defects, and that there was a material risk that shortfalls
branch accounts were caused by horizon so
This is where the horror sets in, for me,
because reading all these stories about the different people, what they had gone through because of post office, there being told
your life is only worth maybe up to twelve.
Two thousand pounds, and you can't get any more money after that, so they're they're, trying to lock those five. Fifty five in which isn't I dont think, is fair.
there, but it's also that Post office has basically admitted that this was their problem. They should have.
Got the software with Fujitsu, but they went after the supposed masters. Instead,
They just saw the money missing and they acted on that they didn't actually look
and to the problems and associate them because they were work
and, above all, on the way it's the low hanging fruit, getting a conviction charging someone with this is far easier, then face
in the bureaucracy and red tape in the buggy software problem that they have created.
guess what I'm getting at is so
there's this admission, that it's not the same,
post masters fall in most of these cases, and yet only six have had
convictions overturned, that's a crime Justin just
explain in your own words, so that people understand what it was like. Four power
Stop this to deal with Fujitsu because they went to
gets you and said we have these
use and Fujitsu you
they. Oh, yes, you paid as we're going to work on that. What did they say?
well see at that point theirs.
they are more or less on a licensing or maintenance routine and they said well we're gonna have to go
do some of these things and you're gonna have to pay us millions
of more pounds and we'll get it back to you in six months or a year or, conversely, you could
thus five ten million pounds near more a lot more money and
could turn this around a lot faster, but the poster
office under the government has already bought. The software have already pay heed an exorbitant amount of money for it,
and Fujitsu they. They know where the money is this
this is a whale in other, like our weaken. We can build
this for as long as we want and I in Fujitsu defence, there would never think well why,
you charge. People criminally for problem
so there are software, that's not our problem, that's your problem and the Pope
office is saying all your software is not
properly. We need it fixed. This is just typical corporate stuff
I'm sorry, I'm so used to hearing these arguments. My my whole career and corporate Amerika that I wasn't surprised hearing that Fujitsu push
back and said, give us more money and will fix it. I wonder a p
understand this, that postal
would say on one hand, we have these problems with the software, we're having
trouble with people learning how to use it and on the other hand there going after so
post masters and saying he stole from us. There's theft there's a bug
system, etc. They don't ever put it all together, and I don't know if that's me,
as a denial or if they truly dont, know what the heck they're doing, because I know
even just conversations with you. It seems like their people that do
understand the Tec of it, and so on.
that's an excuse, but I still think post office should have done more but
They always fall back on that
money. We can't really afford that. They ve told that to Fujitsu, and they ve
we'll told that to the sub post masters on a cold February
and in an app less tony caresses, woke up, got dressed loaded, sawed off shock on Andrew to his bank. After entering the office, he quickly found his investment banker and wired the muzzle of his gun to the back of the man's head. Tony wasn't there to steal anything? He was there to take his life back
and his plan was so well calculated that for the next sixty three hours they Indianapolis Police Department couldn't stop it, and so outrageous and potentially catastrophic that the entire nation couldn't turn away from it. American hostage is a new podcast, starring, John HAM. That tells the true story of one man who channeled the rage of a nation and took justice into his own hands and ass. The nation washed live Tony, would become a hero to millions to hear the story follow american hostage. Where were you get your podcast? Were you
binge all aid episodes right now on Amazon, music or wondering plus the other problem here earners.
What does somebody was legitimately stealing at this time. Have you prove it you, God
Jane Garbage, how you cannot look at that and say: oh,
you can tell us, person was stealing or the word. You know this till came up short legitimately so people,
could have been getting away with stealing and
no one would have known the better, but it seems
ray disgusting that they would be
still say what we know. This person was stealing it's like now. You few broken that try,
you're still using horizon, you have
training issues you have the bugs. That should always be why
doubt my opinion. I dont know how you trust them to actually know. Just like you said it's not that way
no one for leaving our listeners with good feelings at the end of our episodes pipe. When talking about this,
case. I just I can
away from it feeling good about anything. There hasn't
and really any accountability. Nobody that was responsible.
For these convictions has been convicted themselves
There are walking around free fact summit.
Had been promoted. The government has admitted fall
they ve come out and said: ok, you know things were a great and
Culture is changing and we're gonna give this big pay out, but
I want everyone to understand that this is the sort of power that your government wields
This is what happens when that power is misused,
if it wasn't maliciously, if it was just complete incompetence, but no government ever holds itself
accountable, and this is the perfect example of that.
as far as making it right, that's probably and after come out,
through civil lawsuits, and this is going
pass them a lot more money when they were too
and you get the lowest bidder, the lower
price for the software is now
costing them mill
in more hundreds of millions poor. So when you have
that admission of fault
and then you say we're gonna go through the proper processes and then work
to pay these day,
my is, but then they're going to get
not by legal fees and then the people who have suffered because
save any kind of compensation. That's disgusting
so I dont understand why the government couldn't and I'm sure people
laughing now why they couldn't just do a pay out,
instead of involving all the attorneys this in that. Why not just attempt
reach a solution, say: ok, we're in
pay this out and we're not going to let it all get swallowed up by legal fees
Harry Harry. You talk at all common sense stuff. They can't do that
common sense, because this seems like them
that's impossible. The guardian
has some great quotes? By
Johnson and the post office. Chairman TIM, Parker, Boris Johnson, said I know the destroy.
many sub post masters and their families have felt for a very long time now
the horizon scandal and am pleased that we
got the right judgment. Our thoughts are very much with the victims and will have to make sure that people get properly looked after.
Because it's clear that an appalling injustice has been done, but here's a quote by TIM Parker, the Post office chairman. He said that the post office,
Had supported the overturning of the vast majority of convictions, we are caught,
acting other posts, masters and post office workers with criminal convictions from past private post office, prosecutions that may be affected to assume,
them to appeal. Should they wish, and I
I will have to see how plays out, but I can't stand it. Government officials come out
even Boris Johnson comes out and says base
it's a learning experience, ok, fine, but what
can I do about it? I hate the lip service. I hate
that, they come out and say the right things, but there's nothing to back it up, and I think it's because
when it comes down to it? These people don't matter to them, they dont care, though you wonder. Why did we cover this right? Because the government for all it
power. So many people look to the government for help. It's like a safety net. It's it's away to form boundaries!
that keeps society safer and healthier well, when it comes down to it,
much help is this government when push comes to shove and is not just the UK
maybe this is any government could be doing this. Are we doing
We believe that if this happened in the United States that our government wouldn't do lip service in not back it up, I mean
I would expect a lot of the same things to go down, but I would hope that
the corporations in the post office
figured it out sooner. I mean that's just me being an optimist.
So one of the outstanding issues to major. So people remember this, because there was this settlement of sorts with the five hundred.
Five as they are probably known. Those people are expected to be able to get anything else.
I believe there are many people, many people
fighting to try and get properly compensated and, furthermore, to actually get their names cleared, because that's another hurl
Why can't they just do that I'll? Tell you why? Because I think it gives these
post masters more fire power. If they go into court and say I
compensation if their cleared. I think that just
some were fire perinatal. No,
The government wants them to have that, so their dragging this out seems like I agree because its
every step of the way when you admit fault: you're, opening yourself up to
you're civil suits, and this is where the
foresters come in handy in a were upset about the legal fees and stop and such, but there are a lot of people trying to help the sub post masters out here
and sure it's expensive, but at least they're getting assistance. So
You know systems not perfect and we are seeing it play out on a grand scale, but I would
They that there are people who care and
you can argue, that's for money or because their passion, but I think
there is at least some hope going down
the road that Morgan,
from this- and I remember
You telling me that the main reason you wanted to cover this honour, Maine
rather than say patriarch, is because you said this
the story that more people need to learn about it here about
We do so many
stories in the United States. People just think that we're all
during each other in every single prosecutors, corrupt in the the government's covering everything up. But now the? U K, it said that its
before more progressive legal system and justice system. Yet here we have a mask
justice that involved clause
a thousand people, so I want to read
quote- and this is by the honourable Mr Justice Fraser he's with the high court- and this quote is on the front page for
the justice for Sub Post Masters alliance. This is at the J F Ass, a dot org dot. Uk, that's the
the website now Lincoln and the notes. Honourable Mr Justice Fraser said this approach by the Post office
mounted in reality
bear assertions and denials that ignore what has actually occurred, at least so far.
The witness is called before me in the HORIZON issues trial are concerned. It amounts to the
when first century, equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat. I love that. I love that
because it cuts through the bs. It says that stop
nonsense and each
to me at least that the high court cared
and that their alarmed by this, so this justice
first supposed masters alliance pays. I told you about definitely give it a visit. There is a lot of information there, many documents you can download and read through and if you
visit any new sites that
covering this, the guardian has done a very good job as well of getting.
formation out there about this scandal, there's a lot to digest, but
I really think this is a fascinating, if not horrifying case the likes of which I don't
We ve ever come across before,
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Transcript generated on 2022-03-15.