From wonder you doing tonight, Aaron, I'm doing pretty Justin. How are you feeling tonight doing great we have some announcements and some updates correct by the time Oh here this, the golden a killer Wilson.

serving his life sentence we had covered. in the past and he was one of the biggest crime stories of the last couple decades Joseph the said four years old and he, We recently arrived at his new home, which is north currents prison in California would call it his forever home. I bring this. Because this is a guy that affected hundreds of people, and I know that at least you and I we were happy he's locked up there- might have been some people that wished he had been put to death, but this It's a pretty satisfying trial hearing from people who had the ability, speak in court with him present it really let him know how he affected their lives. And so he had to put faces to names and here

stories of family members or victims who had stories to tell on sale? For me, this is quite an accomplishment for a guy that no one thought could be caught or many people. Many people didn't caught now he serving that time and we fully accept im to die in prison, like the way he's acted, he's actually a fairly healthy guy. So I'm expecting to live quite a while in prison I was always impressed with how they ended up catching him use dna profiles and isolating it down from that It's just a phenomenal undertaking by enforcement, and so many other groups and departments hard to believe that was just a couple of years ago. Once again, if you to see as a crime con, whether you in the United States or you're in UK user

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Now aren't you made a social media post about case suggestions for weather, something was homicide or suicide, and you know a case where people really felt that law enforcement might have gone in the wrong direction and you add a suggestion from Robin Warder and he suggested tonight's episode that said he covered this case on his podcast. The trail went cold. I know he did an exceptional job on it, I'm hoping that we can bring a lot more discussion. So with that, what are we in about tonight Aaron tonight, we're talking about the mysterious death or murder of Ook La Plaza, who lived in San Francisco, and he was aged thirty six when he died.

this happened June. Second, two thousand and seven in San Francisco now. What do we know about ook? Who was a French the dual citizen of the United States and France. He had no siblings. He had two parents, France, an moray. He had spent last four years of his life: living in the apartment that he was at at the time that he died and he was working at leapfrog which, if you're apparent you know at leapfrog, is I had to look this up, because I had no clue It's a children's educational company he was a sound engineer and a they are very good one, so they make education. no apps and software for kids as well as toys yeah. And when you do that, you need to produce sounds you need audio, you need narrations. What have you and he's the guy that did it all for this company, one of the things it really was into was philosophy. People would

say that he would just write down philosophical thoughts or quotes I think this was so french attempt by the way so yeah he it's not tied down with anyone. He was bachelor and key is actually saving up to buy property in Buenos Aires, but at the time you know he many friends, so he would go out to the bars or clubs or go riding his motorcycle, but he was also dating a lot and they said it wouldn't be a surprising thing for him to date, a different woman. Every day of the week, he had gotten out of a long term relationship with a a woman named Melissa next after that he just wanted to live a little. He just wanted to embrace his said the french side. I guess and he's living the life in San Francisco. They of a very thriving social scene. There he's young, he's doing his thing so. This is Hayes Valley, San Francisco, the

that he was in they said was a pretty nice area, but it bordered. I you could say, a more dangerous area. I hate to label things this way, but it really just has to do with the a crime that was happening in these areas. This is pretty typical of most big cities, you have a divide between rich areas and everywhere else, and it's Sid Roth, again It doesn't mean that you shouldn't walk around there and you're going to be murdered. Definitely it's just it's something comes into play later in the story. So night of June first, because this this extends into June. Second, in the morning who gives out with friends at Club Underground SF, which is San Francisco, obviously he celebre getting a promotion that he got at work and he had gotten to the club around ten thirty that night, of course, people

asking him, how did your date go because he had been out on a date, but he said well, it didn't go that great and four, probably just going to be friends. Been out on a date with a lady. Earlier in the night there, at dinner and drinks and now he's showing up to the club to have more drinks with his friends. Let's just play that he's, probably already a couple drinks in before he even starts his night, one of the people at the club, a friend of is also a co worker is Neil Serama and they made and to go on a motorcycle ride the next day throughout the night, he's joking around and drinking Great time, but if it's time to go home and as he's leaving, he joked that he was going to find a lady to spend the night with Aaron at this time. in two thousand and seven SAM Cisco was having a pretty violent year. There

city, had reported over one hundred murders and now the highest. It's been in seven Twenty percent increase in in homicide. Same week, a homicide, going to say that he's had to respond, three of five reported crimes reported murders Actually, so things are happening. Just happens to be this night. Where is with friends and what time do they decide to call it quits that night about quarter till two in the morning now a guy walking home at night in San Francisco, it just depends on the area you're in and how street smart you are. say that walking home, drunk or intoxicated You might not have all your wits about you, but he's going home. He got home around two to oh six:

is some evidence of this, because there is the security camera that face down to the residences along Linden Street there like a sidewalk that the security cameras pointed at and who is, say, probably walking pretty slowly he only shows up on like one or two frames of the security camera he's in and out of the picture very quickly, and and show the front of his residence. It's pointed down the street, so he disappears as he turns towards his apartment. So show his apartment. It just shows the street in front of it. You can find image of this online. He literally looks like a shadowy figure. He can't really take out any details or anything but a tool? Six he gets back home and he there's something to eat and gets on it, pewter until her Two thirty eight in the morning he's

dating websites, but then something happens and it's after two hundred and thirty eight that Hoog dies. Let's talk about when the it is first hear about this. Just in one of the neighbors Orion deadly reports sing blood in front of eggs apartment on his steps and in front of his door, and so police show up and they have probable cause because there's blood all over his front porch. Essentially they kick his front door because his front door is locked and deadbolt it. So they have to force their way in and that's when they discover the body of Goog. Ryan had said when asked about What he knew he had heard a loud thud that, shook his wall and then heard the door open and close and then slam, and then he heard

someone running down the stairs. So the report seems to indicate that book store was open and close or opened and shot loudly a few times and that their we're stopping footsteps, but there is no words have any yelling or screaming they and in his apartment there blood everywhere. There is blood trailing from the sky in front of his apartment to the door, there's blood pulled up all on the inside of the door. Then there drops of blood trailing throughout the apartment. There smears of blood. Next to the light switch as he was grabbing at something trying to just survive. There's a tv that's knocked over there is glass, that's been shattered. I think from the entertainment center has. His top has blood on it, his

phone is found on the coffee table next to the laptop it's disturbed. If you just read this, count. It almost sounds like maybe he was attacked in his apartment, but the apartment was dead bolted. Obviously, this means that there might be another possibility, Justin well. The lead. Investigator starts talking to the neighbors and asking if Oog was suicidal or depressed the morning of right after they find the body questions of suicide are already being fielded to the neighbors are eye witnesses, and this is a real question right Why would they bring up suicide well? According to the Instigators and the echo examiner there, looking this crime scene

and they noticed tat. The blood evidence shows that he wasn't moving very fast because it was a large drops of blood hitting the floor and not elongated or oblong shapes, so he wasn't rushing or struggling according to them and they see that nothing appears to be stolen or missing from the apartment. Nothing blatant I don't think, robberies and motive and the Notice that there's no blood on his cell phone he made no attempt to call for help he made attempt to call out for help there, we're going with wild he could have stabbed himself to death. Medical examiner, Dr A's, are She seemed to indicate that that was a real possibility. She could not determine his manner of death his watch had been torn off his wrist.

found smashed underneath his body he had at least we stab wounds, one in his abdomen, one chest in one on his neck. So this is how they're rolling with their investigation. I mean they're, saying that it appears to be a homicide. With an h Their theory has flipped to suicide because the door was locked and it appears that, he was moving slowly and there was no struggle tv being knocked over broken glass, the apartment, slight disarray, no sign struggle because He was moving slowly in the apartment Aaron this is our the matter. Examiner she. him to lean. At least you know. When I read the information, it seems like she's, leaning towards suicide because like you said, it didn't appear that he was running away from anyone. I feel like this

Little short sighted little bit of a narrow view. That you have Antonio Casillas, who was that investigator in this case seemed to indicate that he looking into the suicide anglers. Well, he's asked The neighbors about hugs mental state- He asks if there's any blood trailing away from the apartment down the street there not. He says one and the same on stab somebody. They usually end up injuring themselves trailing blood away from crime scene also, that security camera footage does, show anyone running away from the apartment or anyone even going to the apartment, at least in that small timeframe, except for Luke, but we have to remember it's only showing one angle

it doesn't actually cover the entire apartment. Building. Let me add to that book was walk in front of the camera drawn, and slowly, and he only showed up on like one frame So if somebody actually ran from the apartment, I don't know they, be running in between frames. If it's only taking a snapshot every five seconds, you could in and out of that camera's line of sight within five seconds. It's a possibility, just in the other indication that they have it that they're leaning towards suicide is that there's no murder weapon found, so maybe since the apartment was dead, bolted who just cleaned the weapon and either pushed it into the ground outside or cleaned put it in the sink. because there was a knife in the sink yeah. I don't actually follow that logic, but you, I to think? if somebody took their own life

but the knife. Where is knife, and they can't find one. And since there is blood on his front doorstep, they assume that he stabbed himself? What outside and chucked the knife or went inside and washed the knife off with three stab wounds to of wood would have probably killed him within a minute but has the wherewithal to go clean. The knife off it yeah totally buy that as a angle for suicide hashed, I saw a chasm, you start it s ball business, because you had a passion for pottery, a skill for software or a mind for manufacturing and not necessary. lay for your know. How of the business side of running a small business? Thankfully, that's what Quickbooks is all about. Providing new small business owners with the tools they need to feel confident from day one because with Quickbooks you can get paid.

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Dot com, Slash loan offers, in other words Coup De Plaza, even though we had a very good life going or himself. He decide he's going to take his own life, and so he grabbed a knife went outside Apartment stabbed himself in three different places, and then went about inside of his apartment for a little bit till he collapsed, but that was where's after you clean the knife off and hit it expertly. It was just create what a mystery for everyone for the podcasters to try and solve you're bleeding out sanitizing your your own suicide Vice is a priority to you. Cleaning if the knife that you use to stab yourself is going to be on the forefront of your mind, absolutely I'm I'm one percent buying. This investigators claim to knife was cleaned.

same investigator would go on to interview, Melissa, necks, hooks ex girlfriend who was on the other side of the country. When she heard about this situation and she called the police station to get more information, and they would not answer her question, so she flew into town and when he found out that Luke had been murdered is the one that called his parents back in France and let them know- that their son was dead. days after the fact, because law enforcement didn't bother to notify next of kin or the parents but investigators talking to Melissa and asking her questions about work and it comes out that He is into japanese culture he's into samurai culture. I guess, and they ask her about

hurry, carry the ritual practice the samurai taking their own life were they add themselves in the stomach and then their knife or their sword across cutting themselves and DIS best? Gator claim that it's because of, his questioning of Melissa four days after the fact that that How he came up with the suicide angle is because of her explaining to him about boobs guess obsession with samurai culture, he said is he never thought? It was suicide up until that point now even the morning of when he found the body and was questioning the neighbors asking them if was suicidal? No, no. He claims it's. Four days later. Many people do not by his exploits since because he has talked about this now I'll give him some. Had it for at least trying to address

the questions, but it suspicious that doctor This is our and in tone Casillas were dating at the time the plaza was murdered, I mean you can do people that you work with. That's not a conflict of interest at all. I know that He would never let their emotions get in the way before me, a tree just depends on the results and the alt in this case so far share he can say. While this is mysterious, how did he die? Was he murdered? Was a suicide. What happened, but when you have if people who are tasked with standing exactly what happened here and there's a an obvious his the getting results. I have a problem with it too, beastly hoops, mother and Father have traveled to the states to check into this, and it's too their surprise that they are informed

a third son has taken his own life again Melissa's king into this looks ex girlfriend there talking to her at first, so she actually called a a local crime reporter and asked. Have you heard anything about my Ex boyfriends case he's the one that informs her two suicides, that's when, it's really setting in that. police are treating this, not foul play at all the investigator like, I said, he's working, fine, different cases three actively and then he it's a call about Luke, they're overwhelmed with cases. I know that they're doing their best. I know that they're trying to solve, every single case. I know that there manpower is short, their resources are limited, but I

don't know. If anyone else can see the pattern here, but sometimes when you have, stack a dishes up to the ceiling you might I clean everyone as careful as you should his case there Looking at the blood evidence as they say and saying, while he wasn't moving around very fast, so he wasn't in a struggle or Nothing was stolen, so robbery wasn't a motive. No one go to phone the camera. So therefore no one else was in the area. Yet when came out blood on his steps. He was on the camera either the only on the camera when he was several seven feet away from his front stoop if they're using these claims as evidence that no one else was around in the area and that this was self inflicted. They say this

wiki. Wheel gets the grease and, of course, his parents come over, states were about five weeks and their push the authorities to take action because they feel like This case will just slip away, this is their only child. So they start telling them you To get into his accounts, putting his email accounts and see was he contacting anyone? Did anyone contact him because sigh for some reason he was in his apartment with the door locked till sometime before three o, and he his door and went outside. So what brought him outside, because They don't see anything on the phone. Well, it took them four month for the police to finally look into these email accounts and get to that, DR that's in the laptop. That's when they find out like was on his laptop at some point during the night on dating sites. Is it possible

that. He had arrange a meeting with somebody that night I mean the last thing you said before he left the club was I'm going to go, find a girl, so He get cat and someone showed up. Did he sleep with wrong person's woman and that person sought revenge was that date earlier that night, a model and some type some way did. He just happen to come across the wrong in person at the wrong time, who will did may be knocked on his door, his father, and swore made a comment that he was disappointed there reward would have to be offered to maybe find information that would break this case open, but he posted a one. Hundred thousand dollar reward his family. they just want answers. It was the week of July eighteenth, two thousand and seven when they return to France, but they.

stop. Just because I left the states didn't mean that they were stopping there. If to get answers, they then talked with the french authorities and said: please work this case. and the french authorities reached out to the american authorities and were good I permission, because when you are as citizen of another country, you have that right and Luckily, our american government is pretty open to having other law enforcement come in and check things out, so french authorities came in. black suits and ties and took this case on, like nobody's business, the family also hired a private investigator Justin We know that he was working. He was talking to people, friends of boobs chasing down leads trying to construct and go through and test the different theories, but the investigator

from France they finished a rope. Work. That was thousands of pages long and all we know about. Report, because it's never been published, or at least to my knowledge, it hasn't was this was, as family and the friends thought a homicide, but not only that They also announced that they not going to say anything add about the San Francisco police Department. Now I would venture to say that maybe this is a respect between authorities but also Maybe they understood the pressure that the San Francisco least department, was under and there of resources. Now the fringe investigators. They had the manpower and the resources to interview up to fifty people from the club that night, all of his friends and coworkers they find out that you know his friend were planning on doing a motorcycle ride with them. The next day

they learn from his boss that he hadn't called in to work every. One said he was in a very jovial mood. The night of this incident They all agreed that they felt that he was a flirt and that he we'd go out on a lot of dates, I don't want victim blame here. People can go out on lot dates, but nowhere. Was there a suicide note found nowhere? Did he mention anything to anybody about this and I get it if you are depressed and suicidal? Maybe you don't say anything to anybody? Maybe you do keep. to yourself, but it was. Pretty passionate person and according to some of his friends and exes. He was kind of an open book. There is a lot made of the fact that he was dating many different people, always going out on dates, and I do feel like you take that a little too far? He was a bachelor

and it wasn't like he was causing anyone any trouble. All the reports are is that who was a great guy? He just wasn't wanting to be I down at the time, and so why do people make a big You are this. You know what I mean absolutely victim blaming saying he's living a high risk lifestyle by dating multiple women. Also they get this crime they see that somebody's been brutally stabbed multiple times and they think this is a. Crime of passion. This is somebody that was seeking revenge, and even some of his family and people that feel like this is foul play they kind of buying into this. if somebody who he had associated with, because was nothing stolen, blah blah blah and I'm looking at the situation in IRAN, and I'm thinking you don't have enough information from this crime scene from these wounds disk

had been some random off the street that knocked on the door or he came for a cigarette, and they just happened to be sitting there on his stoop, there's no way to determine if this was a crime of passion. If this was an attempted robbery and Moog, away and shut the door behind him and dead bolted the door to meet his wife was ripped off. Maybe we're trying to steal his watch. Maybe was just a the person that he had an encounter with Or maybe this was somebody that he had agreed to me online and invited over to his house, and it wasn't worse, that he was expecting and he was going to get robbed there. not enough information there to determine if this was a crime of passion or if it's because of his lifestyle, so personally My opinion I throw that aside. Yes, you!

and follow those leads. But let's not look at this and say: oh, he was murdered because he was dating a lot. That's that's just stupid. Just wanted to say it's almost a disrespect towards Luke and the one thing that you'll get when you read about this case, whether from Michele Nix or from Niels Aroma or whoever that knew him. He was a good guy. This The guy that was the type person you want to go and have drinks with go riding with, if are going after Hygge lifestyle. It's just a disrespect. Cuz, like you, said there wasn't enough information to connect that to something even if there was, I don't to be harped on like oh, he was doing this and he was doing that. There's even suggestion that he would have dated married women. It doesn't matter all that matters is to collect information Cassius, the lead investigator himself admitted that they maybe be didn't, collect enough information and he try.

The cover it. I guess in some way by saying you could probably say that about every case oh yeah and you we could say that about every case. You can't scout. every single inch of an apartment for every single murder. You have to adjust his zone in on the critical is of the crime seems so I get it to me What was missed is that the police seemed to focus on what they saw inside the apartment and would say if they were, find a salt this case they should have this don outside the apartment, because inside the apartment the only thing we've learned that pointed to anything was that watch there is dna testing done on that watch by the french authorities and they found unknown dna on it, that's a big clue, but what we do? is that Luke was safely inside of his place and some got him to open the door and step out and that's when

is that so They put so much emphasis on the inside of the I when it was dead bolted. Just didn't, make a lot of sense to me because it's almost like they're saying but inside the apartment, but inside the apartment, that's not the entire crime scene. In fact, I would argue that crime scene is just outside the apartment door and they so helmed and harp on the blood of the it's, how it was dripping from him and There's the neighbor's. Testimony that says it sounded like somebody ran away, were left the apartment hurry what they're saying well lumbering around slowly and somebody that's in an altercation isn't doing that how much did Duke have to drink that night, a lot and now he's been stabbed three times and were expire thing him to have apps

Clarity go to his phone and dial nine one one now. No You didn't dial nine one, one because they're saying he didn't want help, but he had the with all, to go clean the knife or get rid of that knife, a from wounds that he probably would have bled out from within a minute cool story. The more you look at the type of wounds that he suffered. The suicide angle just falls, apart and I'm someone who really would like to think that the police investigated this properly but fact. Is you know whether it's incompetence or lack resources or just bad detective work. There it's not going to solve every case. Have to allow that, but this case. It seems so obvious that someone ambushed him and that he dead bolted the door to protect himself from further injury, but by that point

like you said, he'd been drinking that was backed up by the toxicology report, but not drugs. So what happened someone ambushed Ook De Plaza and he managed to somehow close the door, I'm assuming that but the slamming door was because I believe that deadly was giving real testimony there. He protected his life by slamming that door, but It wasn't enough. He was already more. Billy wounded with the injuries that he had. Or mortal Even his lung was punctured. This is a guy that somehow cleaned a knife. Now I get that you can't solve every crime. but after a while after this is kind of sunk in and the case officially closed. Yet, why can't they just look at with fresh eyes and say: well the theory we have before it. holding water, if they want to see it's suicide. Then I want to see the

hesitation, puncture wounds. I want to see you suicide device because there isn't one. Want to hear about TAT, look was depressed. I want some sort of pattern, some sort of evidence here and they that there wasn't any dna or hair fibers or anything found in the apartment that show there was another assailant or suspect, but they didn't test the watch now Aaron. I think that maybe this assailant could have ripped watch off in a robbery attempt or it just got ripped off in an altercation and it wasn't even a robbery. Maybe he was just being stabbed and putting his arm up. That watch got ripped off The dna on that watch. Does it to the assailant you could, it doesn't prove that there was an assailant but the fact that the watch was ripped off of him and found underneath him crushed. The fact

his tv was knocked over glass, glasses, broken The crime scene goes from his front porch into the house. Why I've heard people say: I'm going to go with the experts. Well, the experts say this crime was suicide and who took his own life. So go at the expert You know two thousand and nine, the San Francisco police Department, and a second you could say opinion on this, ass. They brought in another medical examiner to river the autopsy or this examiner, went through All the information talked about stab nearest neck, causing the most bleeding said that the fatal blow severed, an artery punctured his lung and he would have been dead within. just a few minutes, and this Medical examiner believes that who went back in just like we said after being stabbed

and that the attacker didn't go in after him again something that took place over ten minutes. This way something to happened relatively quickly? This report has a quote in it this gentleman had inflicted his own wounds in the kitchen area at the other end of the apartment and had walked. to the front door? Then one with a half bloody, shoe prints and two trails of blood on the outside stairs and railing. But there's one trail the bloody Who princess mentions were matched to choose further the report, it goes on to say that the blood spatters on the wall appeared to have been. Shaken off from his arms, while he, while a knife, is being inserted, then removed. He did have some. Wounds on his arm. face that could He considered defensive wounds to be considered where he blocked a stab coming at him.

There is no explanation for these other wounds by the initial investigation by think you're right as a cut on his head, which, if he had grown. His arm up may have blocked the assailant from stabbing him at that point and the tip, the knife, hit him in the head? There's a a bruise on his arm kind of makes sense. Does it not that he was fighting for his life, so in this dna. This dna didn't actually make it to public. Now, until two thousand and twelve this was August and Boobs Father. France, while was saying this, proves that there was some one else around that morning, how we know that people have their theories Justin, they say: okay, it's murder, but why was he murdered? I want to say first, of course, that you would mention that it could have been a random attack. It's possible maybe He was walking home, some one

watched him and followed him after he was in the apartment a little bit. They ended on the door and he came out to see what was going on and then they attacked him. But a lot of us. people, start looking at his circle of friends or his love interests, again go back to that idea- that he was sleeping with so many different women that maybe he broke one of their hearts or maybe one and cheated on. Allow one or a spouse or boyfriend with him and this was an act- revenge. She really the french authorities all of his friends and co workers as suspects as they should one aspects as Michel necks, his ex girlfriend, who said- he will always love a and she made the comment that maybe if she was still much more in his life that would still be around people find it suspicious, I guess,

she was living on the other side of the country when this happened so pretty sure she has a airtight alibi. I wanna be clear that we're not pointing a finger at Melissa, his axe now, these just theories have been proposed and of course, people say well. Maybe she sent someone to kill him, but I find this far fetched I know, everything's just an opinion thinking possibilities here, but Michelle Nix she spend on this case. Trying to find as for fruit for a long time at least as for a number of years, and I just don't feel that it is, doesn't make sense to me if any She seems a little heartbroken that she's lost now you compare her actions to O J Simpsons actions of trying to find the perpetrators of whom who murdered Why, for if you look at the actions of Christopher Watch or some other people who you know spouse

it's gone missing or been murdered. Melissa's actions definitely speak to her passion and caring for her ex boyfriend. People were also looking at Neil's aroma because he admitted that when he first met ook, he was not a big fan, because here's this guy, with the great french accent, and who was basically saying that french Zayigo or french culture. Everything was just better superior, but then, as well as I got to know him. We became really good friends. They would go motorcycle riding together, but what about this promotion? say maybe Neil was and upset with his good buddy. and decided that he wasn't going to just let things be anymore, I absolute I think Neil was stabbing on the front porch. Screaming freedom, fries, not french fries, and I deserve that promotion, definitely motive there. Okay,

So, let's to suspects down neither one of us like these as aspects there's a site dear that someone might have seen who walking home and That's when he was targeted, Edward Holloway was a homeless man who, in January of two thousand ten had murdered their man by the name of Matthew Atoms, and Holloway head attack TIM with a knife Matthew was found dead in his room the morning you're being attacked by Holloway, and the attack happened. One thirty in the morning on January, sixteenth, two thousand and ten now Adams had initially survived the attack, but refused medical treatment and walked home. she don't know about you. Justin involve heard reports that sometimes people are stabbed and don't even really know they've been stabbed. I know it sounds weird, but it happens. I guess

I dunno if it's the shock or I'm sure people have all kinds of reasons why this happens, but to your absolutely right. I not to refer back to my peripheral podcast, but I had a whole episode about a guy. The says called the stabbed in the back and he was literally stabbed in the back. He thought he was punched and he walked home and by the time he got home. He was a centrally passing out from blood loss because he'd been stabbed in the kidney Halloween. had several charges and arrests on his record. That include. Battery assault with a deadly weapon. There were eleven warrants for public drunkenness and fast as well as drug charges, so maybe how way could have been somehow tied to this. Case pattern, free, it's. The profile fits and weather This was a crime of passion or an attempted robbery gone a foul. I don't know, I don't think we have enough

pieces of the puzzle to determine that. So I wouldn't he's a prize that this was a random act of violence or a and an attempted robbery that guy said and you're not get my watch tonight and I trying to say that Holloway did it because these are just suspects that were proposed by people overtime and I think, with halo it doesn't necessarily have to be him. There's just a I believe that some one targeted on the way home just because someone and successfully commit the robbery that has nothing to do with their intent. The door was dead bolted, so you got, that door shut and was able to prevent whether it was attacking him from coming in. I think, it's obvious from at least the blood evidence that you were. Circulating on earlier that he was attacked outside that's where the blood star, and it trades into the apartment? And then there

pools of blood and drips a blood all over the apartment. There's no drips of blood leading back out. So this. I can say with relative certainty: the attack happened on the porch and he he ran back into his house and got that door closed, everything else. Is him bleeding and trying to survive it is made over what happened here sin normally, I think on a case and can't figure it out. It stays with me a long time. This case may not do that to me, because the inability of the police to properly investigate this case is what stands out to me more than the it was it a suicide or was it a homicide angle? I think that's pretty clear, It's a homicide and I maybe the evidence backs that up. So for me, this isn't in case, let's get it worked on.

I know they're going to say: we've had this many murders since then. Are we just going let this one die, I mean been too long. Did they not collect enough evidence. Is that where we're at with this case, if the dna that they collected from the watch gets a hit, that's this case, will be solved? Here's the the thing is: why did the he's not investigate this properly? What is their motivation to deem this is suicide and walk away. Now I realize that the medical examiner said undetermined. I realize that the lead investigator said he went into this thinking. It was a homicide, but in just packed tenth and in in past. I'm really curious if anyone has lifted a finger on the american side to investigate this case. This episode is brought to you by progress Are you thinking more about how to tighten up your budget these days, drivers who say

Switching to progressive, save over seven hundred dollars on average and customers can qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up a little If your rate each month goes a long way get a quote today at progressive dot com progressive actually, the insurance company and affiliates national annual average insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June twenty. Twenty and may twenty twenty one potential savings will vary, discounts vary and are not available in all states. In situations Erin something I didn't know about suicide, I was looking facts on health website. It's government websites, depending on, if it's a man or a woman and their age men, take their own lives, usually with firearms and then, or suffocation is usually the next most common way somebody takes their life, then poisoning and then what types of injury and then falling guess what which one is the

we way it's cutting were piercing and when does come to wounding for suicide, it's typically a neck wound or wrist. Cutting stabbing oneself is even a smaller fraction of how one takes their own life. So if you take them, percentile of how somebody takes their own life. You have to it all the way to the bottom of the the stats before you get self wounding and then to get to stabbing, and not slashing oneself. It's you more unlikely that that alone should give any law. Enforcement pause when they come. across a crime scene where somebody has been stabbed this is just stats and years. This is just math. Whereas we know they haven't officially

this who suicide, but I think that's what we believe they believe and they leave the case open so that they can lead, die on the vine. I guess, or maybe one day, they'll get lucky and a tip come in or I hit on DNA and the case will end being solved if there run, ragged, they're, short on resources. They can't investigate as much if there's higher file cases. They have to look into they're going to The priority is one to say that police didn't investigate properly at this case is unsolved. It's another thing to say that law enforcement was overwhelmed and just push this one to the side and decided not to look into it. I know that's up. public opinion out there, I'm not going to say it's mine, I'm just putting out some of the perception views that people have about this case Alex

is said about the DNA. It would be nice if we knew that the police in San Francisco were submitting this dna and that if a hit happened that they, then take further action. So I thought there is a chance for them to redeem themselves in a way in the future. With this case so I look at it is they have won, piece of the puzzle there. That could be the key, and I hope that something comes out of that the theories and explanations of he's moving slowly. So therefore he wasn't in a struggle. The guy's drunk. and he's bleeding. I don't them to be moving quickly and that's placing the attack inside the apartment when I think obviously obvious that happened outside the apartment, the idea that the camera didn't pick up anyone else. What we've already said that the camera angle was not perfect and, as I said,

it only shows up in one frame when he's walking slowly through the vantage point, this camera some else running away. Who knows you cannot use the disk camera footage as any sort of evidence Nobody else was in the area. The fact that the knife was not found if they somehow claim that he got rid of it or cleaned it off, even though they did test the knives and the kitchen and in saying no blood found on them. So it's almost. If they're, just making up excuses at that point, I person I don't think anyone in their right mind could I their own bs, like that, I admit, That was very much into philosophy. The only note found that was in his apartment was just that it was ass if he and written on it was learn as if where to live forever, live as if

to die tomorrow truly how who lived his life, and I respect for that people want to read more or see more. On this case, there is a forty eight hours, mystery episode, a case for murder and there's a pretty good website headline Doc. That has an article from two thousand thirteen titled in pursuit of justice, the story of who Della Plaza the has summit, details as well as pictures and check out one called from Robin greater subscribe on app podcast Spotify or wherever you're listening right now join Wondery plus in the Wondery APP to listen ad free

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on twenty four seven information overload on our new speeds are in boxes on Tik Tok. That's why I'm bringing you call me curious upon cast that finally gives you definitive answers to life's burning questions. Like does intermittent fasting really work. Should I buy crypto every week on call me curious, I'll dive into all the things you've heard about, but don't really know about we'll both learn and laugh along the way as we explore life's little mysteries, the internet's hottest topics, burning gotta know questions like one of them medical odds. There is other intelligent life in the universe, or is it true? You can't die in your dreams, you'll find out me and some of my hilarious friends on my podcast call me curious, listen to call me areas on Apple, podcasts, Amazon, music or wherever you listen? You can listen early, an ad free by subscribing to wonder, plus an apple podcasts or the wondering app.