November 16, 1989. Billingham, Stockton-on-Tees, England. Julie Hogg, a single mother from Billingham in Northern England, disappeared in the early hours of November 16th, 1989. She had been dropped off at her home by a coworker from her pizza delivery job. When her mother, Ann, couldn’t reach her by phone around 7:30am, she knew something was wrong. She would find Julie around 80 days later, deceased where police had said they had already searched for her. Julie’s killer would escape a conviction twice, then go on to brag about how he could never be convicted of Julie’s murder because of a double jeopardy law. What the killer never suspected was Ann’s determination to get justice for her daughter despite the odds.
All caught up on Gen Why episodes? Get more here: www.patreon.com/generationwhy
Listen ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App. https://wondery.app.link/generationwhy
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
What are you doing tonight
to an horizon amity
advancements. Recently I joined rubbia on her ninety night podcast to talk about the route. Twenty nine stalker. If you haven't
now united, pretty interesting she
where's stories that are inspired by real crimes and then lately she's been having pot.
Asters such as myself on twitter
about those crimes, I'm on the route, twenty nine stalker episode. My name- is on their erin.
I don't get a lot of time to sit down and read a book moyes on the go?
but I love reading. So the solution is audible, audible
offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre. Best sellers new releases celebrity memoirs, mysteries, thrillers catch crime and there too, as an audible member, you can choose one title a month,
leading the latest best sellers and new releases. One of my favorites is:
connections, uncovering the real causes of depression and unexpected solutions. Only
bon audible, let audible help. You discover new ways to laugh and be inspired or be entertained. New members contrived for free for thirty days does audible dot com, slash gaeta, BP or text gdp to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot, com, slash gdp or text gaeta BP, two five hundred five hundred to try audible free for thirty days, audible,
calm, slash, Gaeta, BP, take a moment.
in a word from our new sponsor price line, do you have a group chat where you continuously talk about summer giveaways, but never
they go anywhere well
summers. Finally, here it's time to get out of the office or your house and get a change of scenery with price line you can save up to sixty percent on your favor hotels plus, find amazing deals on car rentals, an flights, and when you save money you can explore more. That means more beautiful views and experiences and more poolside fun doesn't matter where you travel zones or out of the office. I always use
price signed to find the lowest rates out there and you should do have price line. Every trip is a big deal
so. When you ready to book your next summer, adventure visit price lined up com for the best deals that are
we get more out of it.
No, sometimes I read something a little heavy before we start in that kind of slow. My room
a bit, so what did you read tonight that might throw off ira are tone? Well,
anyone that remembers or doesn't remember we covered the case of chemicals, can sue who it
the time when a crime was committed. His name was frederick freely.
and he was what eight hundred miles away or something six hundred miles whatever was he was he was in the upper most part
a crime in a lower part of michigan was committed as
short little summary the price
Peter essentially said that he was this ninja assassin guy, but they went on to say that the victim was shop with a shotgun and its
It's a case that will have your head spinning wheel, wonder where,
the evidence, whereas the proof alot of the people
of cover this case. You can hear the frustration and their voices as they're, trying to explain this story because it
makes no sense, and in a just world I would argue without a proper case,
brought against somebody. They should not be convicted in
in essentially just their entire lives
bars as the sentence it's disgusting, but when somebody is wrongfully convicted when the court systems do fail sometime
we have a fail safe.
Which is a governor or some
politicians who is able to grant clemency. Someone back can overrule what the court's dead right. Yes in michigan did this even one better, because they have the conviction, integrity unit.
Already been freeing people from prison. Who
upon the review it shown that they shouldn't be behind bars. Despite what the court's said, despite what they found,
so what happened in michigan this sir this week? Well, so
immigrants case was being
reviewed by the conviction, integrity unit and this
overseen by Dana nestle. She is,
the attorney general in Michigan,
There was a lot of hope because I mean you're talking about even former attorneys and
judges and politicians.
been on television side. In this,
is no light thing. So it was this
idea that the conviction tat greedy and at once they got a whole. This case really reviewed it. They would see that he
convicted. Essentially with no evidence. In fact, they didn't even
back up their theory with any proof.
How did he get from the upper part of michigan down to them
or part of michigan and
as many hours is supposedly, they say he did in italy
it can make that work as if he chartered a plain, does the guy,
with not a lot of money at the time, chartering a plane, and then they
show that he chartered a plain effect. They had a lot of witnesses saying no. I was hanging out with him. I twenty
witnesses that were hanging out with him. At the time of the the murderer,
one of the reasons he had so many witnesses because he spent some of that day at you know
he wasn't martial arts, that's where they get.
Ninja assassin part right, but were now
talking about it because attorney general Dana nestle has
defied everyone that camera djinns case has been tossed
in terms of, are they going
Have you any longer now she said they were viewed it and they
are going to leave it be, and the governor,
I can't really speak for the governor, but I get the feeling that the governor has never been interested intelligence case and retirement
wretched whittemore so because
of that decision. There is a lot of activity because, on one hand, you have paula
imagine that they're married they. They feel,
like they ve, been knocked down pretty hard. Okay, this
was unexpected because for anyone that knows the facts of the case, you think a convict
integrity unit would have said
the concerns here, but instead their backing up the court. So now they're asking people to go to debate,
p, w dot, michigan dot, gov, slash Whittemore and
share your opinion. There is a link there and let them know please do so.
Think for television can sue he's just turned fifty nine.
of may twenty third, and
he has no current hopes of being released and, if you have any doubt
please listen to our episode or please do your own research dig as deep as you want
you know I implore you to. I encourage you to you: don't have to
take my word for it not take chestnuts. Wherefore, please take
time and look into this,
Andy Levin from michigan snipe district, send out a message to everyone and he said,
as long time advocates for social justice. We believe that we must do more for damaging, can sue and all wrongfully impressed
and individuals across the globe in Kansas case
available options for relief must be pursued. The cordial
as for relief based on action,
innocence and article five sections
a of the michelin constitution confers upon
governor the power to grant reprieves
commutations and pardons after convictions for all
offences except cases of impeachment. We pray that those with the power
or to grant relief conduct
full review and grant relief to MR can sue what it
tell me earlier, just when we are talking about this, you said if there
not willing to do something for damage in because
I want to go
they're not willing to intervene, if they don't want to argue with the courts in this case than I never want to see them intervene ever on anything if politics, if,
politicians and the court systems need not overlap, then don't overlap, don't be a
credit because ass the one thing I won't suffers a hypocrite
what's gonna happen? Here? Is they're gonna not touch timmins case because
but meanwhile they're going to go through and they're going to take away a lot of other people's rights for a lot of other reasons that will overlap into the court systems, because that's just how politicians were you know
I'm point, the governor wool allow some people to be out of prison right. We know that
Bins happens with governors, a happens with the president. They just say: ok, all of these people were letting them out. Why
and they do the same for damage in or at least go through them.
evidence. It's all there and in no act
look at how he was convicted through
evidence at all, so there isn't gonna be any new evidence. Complete lack of evidence is hard.
the problem is. Is it to get out to actually have evidence that, though review?
Traditionally it was you needed new evidence was their dna tested now, oh no, but
this case they brought
with another witness with a story, and they said, will it's basically the same story that some other people have said so
calling her a liar there to say
What's different now that nothing's new here you know I've, I've
made comments on this show just in some people, think I'm getting political. I am merely stating that when I've
in any case. It is this blatantly obvious in a job
this. I dont know why others can't see it. This isn't,
something like a feeling. This is
because I heard a rumour that he was innocent now this is I've review the fact
said the case where
gonna retweet, something like a car dashing, because somebody said: hey bring justice for somebody. We actually
at the evidence we actually look at this and when we see something there,
is so wrong, is so blatantly unjust. We have to speak up
that's the problem with this case, so this is
political. I guess would hope that somehow that gretchen whitman
and Dana so get the message that we respectfully
disagree with what's happened so far, but we would
for them to take another. Look at this, because we believe that damaging can sue, pollack
and soon all the others that are behind
They they need that support, because so far it feels like there's just no hope.
case is one I'm, I'm not
torn on the justice aspect,
but I will say that this
attitude or the I get double jeopardy
law or the legal statute that blocks
the of you multiple times
for the same crime I
something, I do believe and I think that our system can abuse its citizens. I believe that our system can unlawful,
They go after somebody and done
jeopardy is a protection against that
use of power, so tat
It's a hard one for me too,
My head around, but I think it
an important one for the people to hear so what
what are we talking about tonight? Tonight, britain,
about the murder of julie,
who is a single mother from billingham, ignore
in england on november
sixteen nineteen, eighty nine bellingham
a town in the borough of stockton on, tease and stuff
an anti is basically, you know this borough, that is on the north bank of the river tease now julie,
had a three year old son named cabin, and the sun was from her ex husband, Andrew her
and were an and Charlie Ming end there?
pretty close family they stood
for each other and they looked out for each other.
Julie and her ex husband had recently divorced, just
before the murder that that's
a good sign because was
child custody battle? What was going on there, but
Julie will end up going missing so no november, fifty
Julie was working. She
is delivering pizzas and
while she was out working her son
usually spend the evening with his grandparents
now. What do we know about her timeline? Just because, on november, sixteenth julie's dropped off at her home by her boss at a bow?
one thirty in the morning and it could be her by
could be a co worker, but either way she got a ride. Home nash,
it's a ride home and by sea,
and thirty a m her mother,
the mixture that she was awake issues was to picked up cabin, so they could go to court. They had some
more scheduled hearings for the legal separation between her and Andrew,
through their divorce they're. Trying to figure out custody of cabin all the things that are typical during a divorce, but there's
answer so an show
up a julie's house a little while later and she's, not answering so
she gets a hold of Gary Julie's brother, and they
forced their way into the house, because they know
They know that julie
should have answered. The phone julie has obligations that morning julius
to be a court and an lake
pretty much any mother on the planet.
when something is amiss and when she was inside of julie's place, it's
it s because it was too clean to tidy this wasn't like
legally. Didn't keep her house this way
curtains were closed, so they start
looking around while they find that
least keys, are missing and said
julie's not there. Well,
this mean right.
Missing and her mother knows
she wouldn't have just upton. Laughed
Now again, this is because
the time, a cell phone. So it's her
to get a hold of somebody if they're not at home,
regardless her mom knows something's up and she's gonna call the police and die.
Report her daughter missing. Yet, first, an
asking the police. If there have been any reported traffic accidents in maybe
That's why she is not responding right, but there weren't any,
So eventually, Anne and Charlie went to the police
and said, and we want to
we're actually missing, but they came back with the classic
she probably just left home and wanted to start a new life or something
They also started suggesting that maybe she had a one I'd stand and she
at some strangers home
and knew this wasn't true, because this was a devoted mother? She wouldn't just leave her son behind now
without any information like this and
probably calling her work and their saying. Well, we dropped her off at one thirty, but the police,
don't seem to be interested in questioning her coworkers or even her ex husband there. Just
probably after something else that there's net
wrong here: you're jumping the gun. Well,
for five days of
and her mother is being very persistent and tying the police like she's.
Not showing up should not showing up to work. Nothing and that's,
when the police start taking a little bit more seriously
They will launch a search for julie and
thing seems to be missing and they
claim they search the house thoroughly, but the detectives and the police are saying they couldn't
guarantee that nothing
happened to her daughter, but they assured her that nothing happened at the house yeah. They felt
an ant that Julia was still alive just somewhere else and three months after the play
said, search shoes apartment they, but
the keys to Andrew julie's acts so there?
he and their son could move back in the
and Andrew got into the home there,
a terrible, odor and
called up an for advice. Now this is
ex husband to again, if
trying to figure this case out, this guy would be a suspect and her disappearance. This guy would absolutely be a person of interest if she's been murdered. He
ox into the house, immediately smell something and then
calls julie's mom. I think that's a good sign mice.
She's going to worry, because
a few here. There's a terrible odor in place
and you know someone's missing your first stop.
Probably is oh now. What, if it's my daughter so
she's moving around and she gets it
the bathroom she's,
sniffing around and she notices that a bath panel moved when her knee touched it.
She said the oder got stronger at that point.
so she started moving the panel and the
next thing. You know she's dead,
running down the stairs screaming andrew
she's under the bath she's under the bath
now. This isn't a place you could.
said gently end up. You're not gonna
Been fall in end up under the bath you're, not going
you be crawling in there to get something
storage, her body was
haste under there to be concealed. So I just
want anyone to think that this was an accident. This was absolutely foul play in whoever
hid. Her body within the bathroom Julie was wrapped in a blanket underneath the bat
so Andrew had gone
to the bathroom and
golf even more the panel and then
he then ran into the street and called the police and
now that there is a body of course.
The police are saying: ok, we're gonna get to the bottom of this, but an screaming at them and yelling.
Told you she was in there, he wouldn't listen.
It tells you she
Try telling them don't don't just walk away from this house. She's got to be here, there's something
in this house. That will lead you to my daughter's disappearance, even if it wasn't
Even if she didn't know it was her body, she knew something I have a feeling
just in that. She very much believe that her daughter had been at all time, because I think she put a lot of weight into julie being dropped off at the place at one thirty in the morning, and she
really didn't believe she'd ever left after that and its entry.
Saying that the police didn't sir.
the place for days yet didn't detect any
and a smell weren't,
the body which it was here.
behind a panel. You know it's not like you,
open up a closet door and there's you know it wasn't something like that. It would be something where you would have to really do
a thorough search and they didn't but
I'm just surprised that they didn't detect a smell up to five day.
and they obviously never went back to the house after that. Otherwise
would have definitely smelled decay or something to that effect. But, being that
now almost three months has passed. Her body
is seriously decayed and
really hard for them to do an autopsy and find out her cause death. It's obvious!
she's been mutilated, it's obvious
she's been murdered, she's disarray
ogden wrapped up in a blanket, but
time has passed now. They ve lost evidence now
word from our sponsor better help
can get overwhelming. I know that I suffer from burn out without even knowing it, I've worked a lot of corporate jobs in a soul sucking cubicle ad.
tons of fatigue, fatigue, anxiety and all of these things are associated with burn out, but that's not the only cause
Sometimes it's just the roles in life that we leave that can burn us out whether its
parenting or a caregiver better help.
Mine therapy wants to remind you to prioritize yourself talking with somebody, can help you figure out what
Your life stressors are maybe you're not being honest, maybe you're not
indicating enough, maybe you're not standing up for yourself and the third,
can guide you in coach, you on how to do those things better help is
customized online therapy that offers videophone and even live chat sessions with your therapist seed
to see anyone on camera. If you don't want to its much more affordable
than in person therapy and you can be matched with it.
piston under forty eight hours are listeners
get ten percent off their first month at better help, dot com, slashed gin? Why that
better help h, LP, dotcom, slash, Jen. Why.
I know a lot of us are having trouble sleeping at night and that can effect
A lot of things in your day can affect your motivation. It can affect, you
for vocabulary, it can affect your energy and stamina, and you spend a lot of your life on your bed
trying to sleep, though switch that up briskly number
Sleep iq data shows that sleepers, who use their three sixty smart pad technology, get almost thirty minutes more restful sleep per night
two, a hundred and seventy hours per year, the longer days of summer, can make it more challenging to get seventy nine nine hours asleep, understand that keeping your circadian rhythm and sink and help you get quality sleep and help you enjoy your entire summer. Yet this
to a regular wake up in bed time get natural sunlight limit. Your exposure in the evenings turn off that
phone and get off social media? Last night, my sleep score. Eighty nine my highest score yet
last night, my sleep score. Eighty nine, my high
score. Yet why
is proven quality sleep from sleep number, because every great day starts the night before discover
special offers. Now for a limited time at your local, asleep number store or at sleep number dot com, slash gin! Why
so they start looking at the people around Julie
Of course, you have a name that comes up early on which is andrew, but they
make andrew work as a suspect, after really examining his alibi and what he'd been up to, and they
her her coworkers. They have to take their word for it
did they drop her often go home or not, and that's all they have so they
branching out, which is a good thing right right.
There is another name that comes up of someone that lived very close to Julie and whom she had dated
Obviously his name was Billy Dunlop, so the police
request a warrant to search his home and they see
his home. Just then what did they find while they do
a thorough search this time, and they actually
pull up some of his floorboards and
cover julie's housekeeper. They know it
key dunlop sphere,
your prince or on her key,
Why would he have her keys that big evidence right there?
The only thing that was
verifiable taken from the crime scene. So it's february
thirteenth that he will be arrested for julie's murder.
They will formally charge him but
he won't go to trial until may.
so may ninety ninety one belly dunlop
let's go to trial,
This is a very straightforward trial, but
having this evidence against him, the jury,
at least not all of them that dunlop what?
guilty of julie, hogs murder, so they couldn't reach a verdict.
and so Dunlop was released
it's a hard. One is an errand, because all we have is the fact that
is in possession of her keys. They dont have dna at this point.
and they dont have his finger prints.
Crime scene didn't
evidence of him at the crime scene
All they have is here,
possession of her keys for the most part and is not just that
because of the condition of julie's body. It's really.
Difficult for them to say exactly what happened to her so
a second trial in accra.
Or of ninety ninety one and again the jury
just couldn't make up their minds because, like you said there
but without saying well, they ve got the key business
they don't have really anything else other than the two had dated previously
and he was in the area. He was right next door, essentially the judge,
will end up clearing him because they ve tried him twice so the job
image, says not guilty and
He is now a free man can
Keep trying someone over and over again it
be right. It wouldn't be just right.
I agree with that on its foundation. If, if you
cried somebody and either a jury or a judge clear,
them or acquits them then,
You have to leave them alone now, so
is a free. Man
and this is
law that was established,
Eight hundred years before duly hog was murdered.
whilst century it was
a confrontation between saint thomas beckett
and king Henry the second. This is how
our back on
rules and laws, were being sat and being
ass. Did him
the legal system-
also where we got our fifth amendment and our american constitution.
no one can be subject for the same offence to be twice put in.
city of life or lamb, so
We had a suspect he was acquitted.
please, don't have any other person to go after four julie's murder
but Julie's mom
she's not happy with. That knows
he actually sued the police for negligence.
There was a settlement in eighteen, ninety three where
She received twenty thousand pounds and I think that's fair, because one, the police didn't find
a body in a house.
You know- and they never went back multiple times to investigate
if they just
They searched wants to me, but I don't know they might have gone in and wandered around a few times, but they didn't
take her seriously. That was the problem,
her body wasn't discovered for months, so
case it goes.
old right because they don't
have any where to go with it.
They exhausted there.
Aids and and
specially think about when they bring charges against someone they take them to trial that beans
their best guess on who perpetrated the crime that failed
But in nineteen ninety seven in august, there's an update, justin. Well, this
lop guys quite a character for quite a piece of work. My maybe, as a better turn Dunlop attacked his former girlfriend who
pregnant donna Williams, and her current by
Oh sean, fair weather, now
he attacked sean with a baseball, bat and
stab donna with a toasting fork that
her long, though, because of this he called
and then sentenced
given seven years for the attack, but
sometimes happens. He gets by bars and he starts talking.
He's gotta establish how
bad ass. He is in the
prison system and dont
said, may, because I've murdered before its exact
what he does so he says I murdered my former girlfriend
julie hog, and I got away with it. He did
just tell one person now you know in this is
where it's interesting, that this decision
happen more often really, because if you can
be tried again for the same offence. Why,
didn't he bragging right, he got away with it as this
thing as it is? Why aren't more,
people doing this. I dont know, but he goes
on an confess to a prison officer, the present
actor. He writes a letter to his girl friend, and he says now
drunk that night. I got into a fight I assault
a guy and he goes
and after that, when I was pretty well
he says he went over to Julie's house.
Apparently says she made fun of his injuries basis? Saying oh, who were pure worked your butt and
and lop said, he went, berserk and strangled julie with his bare hands yeah. I think what it's men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will murder them. That might not be.
the exact quote, but this is
literally what happened that night
in march of ninety, eight the police were
to question Dunlop about this, and they
a man to the Stockton police station in a tape statement, Dunlop described
police exactly what happened that what happened that night, he said he
two julie's house he was drunk. He said she
they killed him for being beaten up
and then he said he strangled her and then hit
her body under the bath.
Obviously so that maybe she wouldn't be discovered. Thank god
stupid criminals and I'm glad he's confessing
Glad he's officially giving us
statement to police because
even though there is
Such thing is double jeopardy.
me and you are- and I think we know that the government of law enforcement
They can find a way they can find charges to hit you up with. If they
the real question here and
palm review there.
sure they have anything to bring against this man. So an
is speaking with the government.
home secretary jack straw and she,
a part of a movement to get the law changed because
the real question, we understand why there's double jeopardy. Bitch
be so hard
fast that if you have proof that someone
did murder. Somebody that you can't do anything about it at that point, this
The struggle! This is the point
If contention, Kay
You overthrow eight hundred years of precedent because of such an
Regis situation such as this. The law commission asked Anne
after she wrote to them if they could use her letter as evidence.
Showed the government. They said that her
was the most compelling case in the country. In other words, it had there
attention and they wanted to help her, they were moved
the situation that some
be so brazen as tools
bragging that they got away with murder am sure they didn't like that feeling either
they're gonna see what they can do about the rules of double jeopardy,
if there is any way
to find an exception. But
It's gonna take some time.
while, in the meantime dunlop
still bragging about his murder
part of this movement to get the double jeopardy law adjusted
They had an speak to the house of lords and she worked on a speech, but when she,
from the heart she didn't use her speech and
Oh the law, commission did a report and
They recommended that for murder, genocide or reckless killing the rule against double check,
they should be subject to an exception where new
evidence is discovered after acquittal. This is important.
because if we just say where we can double jeopardy more because of this guy, then that's not
fair because its
for a reason. This thought got there because of
all these people that came before, who maybe this
some could abuse. We know how difficult it is for a person to fight them.
Vraiment right. If you have this state coming at, you bet
keep bring you to trial. But can you really
For that now,
I mean you'll lose everything trying to battle them
once you are found guilty, your screwed so.
If they can keep coming after you and getting not guilt
verdicts until they finally get a guilty verdict. That's not fair that just can't be the norm and
as human beings figured that out a hundred years ago.
Its essentially erosion, but as we know the gun
and if they can get you on one thing now, they'll find other thing centre in April,
Two thousand dunlop
about murdering his ex girlfriend, and they will come Adam for perch,
three for lying in his first to murder trials, which again
you're claiming innocence
during trial. You're on the record, your under oath, you
perjured yourself and he will be sentenced to six years for perjury yeah. That's air
nice, that they can get him on something and keep him behind bars. But that's not very satisfying, though, is it for you
family absolutely, but
it does give them some reprieve? Knowing that he's not out there, who you know he's not out there and he can't come after them, it's just
or time he's gonna spend behind bars, so
The positive, but it's a bitter sweet when tick
to get a word from our sponsor cove cove? Believe
Is everyone deserves to feel secure
cured shouldn't just before the rich and famous that's why they make home security systems that are
see to install affordable canned reliable cove arrive.
Configured for your home and you install it and just mere minutes. No technician required and it's easy to control from the sleek touch screen or up its professional grade systems price. To be affordable and come with life
equipment, warranties faster.
Spawns times thing competitors because threats, don't sleep, Sakharov doesn't either no contracts. Twenty four by some
friendly customer support. Try the number one customer rated home security system order today and get fifty percent off your customs system get started
cove smart dot com, so am I
sure two thousand one the law commission takes their report to parliament and they explain.
Why the double jeopardy law needs adjusting. They want
and they said the chief
it would also be retroactive and its impact
because if it wasn't retroactive than they could change the law, but it wouldn't effect julie's case now
Dunlop. Maybe he gets
be found guilty of her murder,
because this is the whole point of changing. The law is to go after this guy.
But on the same token, around making it retroactive well
the government, the court systems can now go after a whole
litany of people end up
is the power, so this they have to do
is this out very carefully and me,
if two thousand and three the double jeopardy law was changed and
in november of that year doubled
a pretty is officially scrapped, as the criminal justice bill receives royal assent, so
as it was. It comes to an end, but its chair,
aged where, if there's new compelling evidence, a suspect can
retried for the same offence. No matter what the defining was before,
and the director of public prosecutions and two thousand five can mcdonald said he didn't expect
than a handful of cases to be affected by this he was,
I heard that the police had already advise the public that it
would be reopening julie, hogs case as well as
of others. So,
Looking at the time they were looking at about five murder cases where people that we know weren't found guilty were
we're looking at being retried again
and of all the cases. I'm sure five isn't a lot, but still
to say, oh yeah, you were found not guilty
and maybe you were innocent
and now you have this fear of the government can come after me again, but as well,
seeing in this case the
an julie, hogs case.
Absolutely necessary to
justice for her
the only way you're going to be able to go after this man
otherwise he's getting away with murder its staff
well for me to think
it is totally ok, I mean I want Julie, they get justice but throwing out all of
double jeopardy to get theirs, is a scary thought
You know, no matter how we talk about this, it's a big
I've changed that they can't quite call it double jeopardy anymore. Right.
then this would have happened without an mean this was,
determination to seek justice for julie.
It's amazing because I'm sure she's not the only family member to feel like shit
no hope of finding justice but
pino whenever she did she say
the law- that's pretty amazing,
so. There was a hearing before it
or chief justice and for their high court judges at the royal courts of justice in two thousand six,
they made a significant ruling. They said that Dunlop acquittal should be quiet,
she and that a new murder trial should take place, and I think that
Dunlop. He sees the writing on the wall.
He knows that he
he's been, brow
hanging about this. For years,
How is he gonna fight this so here
and up admitting to murdering Julie, knots
That makes it a lot easier for the justice system,
september eleventh that year he entered a formal plea of guilty.
two murdering julie, this
was handed down on october. Sixth,
he would get a life sentence. I would serve a minimum of seventeen years ago,
for every year jail,
Murder had gone
and the detective dave duffy.
has been made. Today
but more importantly, justice finally achieve
for mister and missus Ming on october, twenty fifth of teeth.
in seven and me
I was awarded an m b e for her services to the criminal justice system, the mb he is a member of the order of the british empire. It's the third highest ranking order of the british empire aware and said he
an honor, but I felt quite sad because of the reason I got it losing Julie and I couldn't lose sight of that. So, while this was a great honor, you know
he's very aware of why she got it. She had to change the law to achieve just
four julie, so she travel the london with her huh
charlie and they can
at the award from the prince of wales, who said it's a splendid thing,
you did and you re
deserve the award of all
people that have been given these awards. You know we're
the likes of like John lennon or edge Shirin
retainers sure, whatever she did something that changed
The course of history she changed the landscape of the legal system
whether you agree with what she did or not. I think she's
accomplish something greater than any entertainer out there. Justin
Twenty seventeen billy Dunlop was
Facing more charges right here,
accused of raping two girls in the nineteen eighties.
in those cases weren't brought against him until after he was convicted of julie's murder, but he ended up
and cleared of those crimes. I'm sure there was a statute of limitations. I'm sure that so much time had passed tat. It was hard to bring
opera charges against him for something like that, so he was cleared on July to
the twenty eighteen. The meetings
get some bad news. They
Discover that, because belly was sentenced in two thousand six and was given a minimum sentence of seventeen years in prison, that means
could be released in twenty twenty three, but the parole
word said that Dunlop had.
some time on remand, and so they decided to deduct it.
They were given a letter from the probation service that later,
the process for done. Lops possible, transferred
and said he wouldn't become eligible for release until twenty twenty one, but it seems
like time moves so quickly, justin and
they were able to get him convicted.
Now there haven't you, look at the possibility of him beings
he again and so,
Charles Julie's father said I
put into words, really the ripple effect this has had on myself my family, it's just heartbreaking, so the following year on june,
Wealth of twenty nineteen dunlop had
application to be moved to an
from prison and that's the
step towards being released, but they rejected it
I think they were really taking into consideration what he had done
and the feelings of the mink family so
would have to wait to apply again for another year. So let's talk
more about how this law affected people
I just can be said that the double jeopardy law had changed. What else did it effect? Well it
peters to go back and open some cases and they
able to go back to case
from the early ninetys one is
Stephen lawrence was murdered and very hateful ray
this attack, he was
killed by a gang
south east london,
It was a very high profile case in all of modern british history. The investigation initially charged five suspects, but they were not convicted
Ivan's mother. She helped
and drew his mother campaign to change this double jeopardy law, and there was a public inquiry in ninety ninety nine going
into this murder case so
Two of the original five suspects were.
Back on trial with
substantial new evidence becoming available.
was a when four
Stephen more and send his surviving family matters
were found guilty and given
minimum terms of fifteen years plus and fourteen years, plus that
one of the cases that were affected by this law- and I guess-
comes down to a question of
do you feel like, and this is
to just in this is to everybody listening. Do you feel like changing the double jeopardy law? Was there
I move because that's a significant change to say you can not
be charged again for the same offence, if found not guilty accept in
cases where there is new evidence
I understand why they did it.
I understand the idea
the premise of why they did it, especially in these cases that are
strangely egregious. You know that this person did it after the fact
there's no doubt in anyone's mind. But
as we know
any time the government is able to
take some of its power back.
it will use it.
and so I hope that this doesn't-
start the quorum quote slippery slope where they go after anyone and everyone who they thought. I well. We got a loss on that case, but we could try again. I hope that they are very clear
guess some timid about there.
So this this new law
This new ability that the process
now have I can
where some people wouldn't like this change.
But you know when we look at the case. We know that a mother will be moved
by emotion, Toby move.
Moved by her love,
her daughter, but when you re
look at what they changed. They need to have significant new evidence and in the case
If Julie hogg, they had this man who
was given freedom by the court and basically said you can never be tried again and he
that distort bragging. It's like he eta. You can't ever
jail me for this, so I'm gonna start bragging about it and he told everybody
I mean he told enough people that there was no way. He could just say other
waking it up this isn't a jailhouse snitch situation of one person saying: oh, I heard
tell me this- that's why he
to confess he had to admit to it. So I feel like in the
and this was the right move, because the key
stone, always get it right and it's too bad. It doesn't work in other situations, too, were someone's convicted
it seems like they can't be heard again, but in this case justice
was achieved for julie hog and for the main family, and I think
that tells you
why it was so important change the law, because, without that they would just
lost their daughter and the press.
who did it could just keep bragging about it.
And shoving at their faces sang. I got away with it that wouldn't be just
as long as they use it sparingly. I think it's ok
I have my reservations if this-
happened here in the states
never miss an episode of generation. Why subscribe to us on apple podcast, spotify, cast box or reverie listening right now, also
be sure to follow us on social media. Our tik tok is at jen. Wiper
God are instagram is at generation. Why podcast joint wondering, plus in the wondering, app to listen ad free
when you're scrolling drew social media. How can you tell what's real anything can be posted on line without being fact checked, but if you heard about the secret to permanent wait long,
Why don't you give it to follow? Tommy sucker brought founder of the trendy high fibre factor. Diet has celebrity far
where's, including megan, kelly and supermodel olivia cocoa, but allegations of troubling side effects.
Diet began to surface and people started a question ass, she selling powder or power Emily jealous a popular fashion, influence her saw these allegations and put the diet on blast to her own large social. Following she launched a crusade,
exposed tanya any factor diet. What was once an online feud escalated into the real world resulting in threats, lawsuits and a whole lot of
emma from wondering comes a new series about wealth. Wellness and influence listened a fed up on apple podcast, amazon, music, spy.
fi or you can listen early. An ad free by joining laundry plus in the wonder, YAP
Transcript generated on 2022-08-26.